I think that Roy is in for a surprise. {Spoilers}

[Lord]

...and a nasty one at that. First of all let it be known that I am a big fan of Roy. I just acknowledge his flaws. I think that Roy who considers himself a generally good guy will be hating himself once they start the interview. She did after all say that they will "examine his life" so he may just find out that he did not act very good all the times he thought himself justified. As such this may be a source of major character development. Don't get me wrong I don't think that the sarcastic Roy is going anywhere but he might just learne a lot from this expeiriance.

Thoughts.

[....]

I think the opposite. I think Roy will have his self-doubt and lack of surety lessened when he realizes that he's not as horrible as he thinks he is.

Roy strikes me as a guy who's hard on himself.

[Edea]

Oops, one of the text bubbles isn't peach-colored. Oh well, blue-skinned bureaucrat = awesome. Roy's life will flash before his eyes, then?

[Lord]

I think so anyway, .... I'm going to have to disagree with you. Although I like Roy {he's my favorite character} he has a bit of an ego at times especially when relating to Elan. Also I think that he will be a changed man when he gets out of this.

[theinsulabot]

gaotta disagree with you. his ego issues non withstanding, roy tends to take on MORE of a burden and responsibility then he can handle, a fact i might add which lead directly to him engaging a lich a good 8 levels over his head. when this is all over, he may realize he may not be as SMART as he thinks he is, but his eternal ledger is almost certainly going to be quite firmly into the noble warrior category

[yoshi927]

I agree with the OP. That's what I saw coming, anyway.

[Green Bean]

Roy does have a sense of superiority, but quite a bit of it is deserved. He's held the OotS together despite everything they went through, and kept things under control, more or less. And of course he has an ego when he talks with Elan. Lettuce would feel superior after five minutes of conversation with everyone's favourite bard..

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I sort of thought (and still think, at least until the next strip) that the records will show that Roy is not bound to Limbo like Eugene is, and will have the option of accepting entrance to Celestia, or heading back.

I also think Roy will head back, since he wants to take Xykon down for his own reasons, but Eugene's lies and misdirections are about to blow up in his face. All this week, Eugene has made it sound like Roy and Eugene's fates are bound to each other, but I don't think the terms of the contract of the Blood Oath actually extend to Roy or Julia. Either of them can move on, it's just Eugene who took the oath, and it's Eugene who will be stuck in Celestia's waiting room until the end of time, or until Xykon turns into dust.

[David Argall]

SOD point

Eugene is shown in SOD as about to pretty much sail thru the interview until the blood oath comes up. Of course we don't know all that much of Eugene beyond his relations with Roy, so we can't be certain, but the judgement around here is that Roy is the morally superior of the two.
If so, Roy may have a few embarrassing scenes that are good for a laugh, but will easily pass. However the comic about requires that Roy have problems, which in this case likely means Eugene is right and Roy is stuck.
But we will see next week.

[Dunamin]

I sort of thought (and still think, at least until the next strip) that the records will show that Roy is not bound to Limbo like Eugene is, and will have the option of accepting entrance to Celestia, or heading back.
Heh, I know what you're trying to say, but you should be aware that Limbo is the Chaotic Neutral afterlife in the standard D&D cosmology, so the choice of words is misleading. :smalltongue:

[Querzis]

I think so anyway, .... I'm going to have to disagree with you. Although I like Roy {he's my favorite character} he has a bit of an ego at times especially when relating to Elan. Also I think that he will be a changed man when he gets out of this.

For maybe the million times, Roy doesnt trust Elan because hes right about him. Not trusting Elan is a sign of intelligence more then anything else. Anyway, I barely see what hes going to regret, of course he wasnt always the most good person on Earth but he either made up for it or wont regret it anyway (for example, taking pleasure in beating up Miko was probably not that good but I really doubt hes going to regret it...I woudnt regret it.)

By the way theinsulabot, how the hell was he supposed to know Xykon level? He kicked his ass with a broken sword last time!

[Shas aia Toriia]

Not to mention that Xykon only used low level spells last time, like Magic Missile and Shatter.

[SensFan]

how the hell was he supposed to know Xykon level? He kicked his ass head with a broken sword last time!
*nitpicks*

[Hopeless]

...and a nasty one at that. First of all let it be known that I am a big fan of Roy. I just acknowledge his flaws. I think that Roy who considers himself a generally good guy will be hating himself once they start the interview. She did after all say that they will "examine his life" so he may just find out that he did not act very good all the times he thought himself justified. As such this may be a source of major character development. Don't get me wrong I don't think that the sarcastic Roy is going anywhere but he might just learne a lot from this expeiriance.
Thoughts.

I have this funny feeling they're going to persuade him to help Miko regain her paladin status.
Well we find her irritating so who's to say where's she'e been sent will have the same reaction and decide to get her out of their hair and to facilitate Roy being raised "early" say so he finds he's been shot somewhere private...
I can just see that interviewer noting he's been in contact with Miko and using it to persuade him to help without revealing he's being played of course how are they going to react when both Miko and Roy are sent back... I can just imagine Belkar's reaction to this!

[David Argall]

This is a tempting time to reintroduce Miko. I've suggested Roy get to the mountain and find Miko is his next door neighbor. I'd say she can do a lot for the story, but I will still argue she has been permanently written out of the story and not get my hopes up.

Now with or without Miko, we need problems for Roy. A problem free situation is dull. So this interview will not go entirely as Roy would like.

[....]

I have this funny feeling they're going to persuade him to help Miko regain her paladin status.


What the hell do they care? She's a dead fallen paladin. Who managed to weaken the structure of reality. Why would the gods want to put her back into play at all?

[EvilElitest]

...and a nasty one at that. First of all let it be known that I am a big fan of Roy. I just acknowledge his flaws. I think that Roy who considers himself a generally good guy will be hating himself once they start the interview. She did after all say that they will "examine his life" so he may just find out that he did not act very good all the times he thought himself justified. As such this may be a source of major character development. Don't get me wrong I don't think that the sarcastic Roy is going anywhere but he might just learne a lot from this expeiriance.

Thoughts.

More likely they are going to make fun of roy like crazy while he makes ton of sarcastic comments
from,
EE

[FujinAkari]

Isn't this whole thread a spoiler? Ah well...

I actually think Roy will be in for a humbling experience when this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) sequence is repeated.

"You attacked an nonthreatening opponent who, though doubtlessly skewed, was acting in the interest of the entire city, rather than attempting to take them into custody."

Roy will abruptly have to realize that, despite how much he hates and reviles Miko, his reaction to her was identical to her reaction to Shojo, emotional and murderous.

((Ironically, Miko might be told the same thing, as that quote applies to her and Shojo as well))

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Heh, I know what you're trying to say, but you should be aware that Limbo is the Chaotic Neutral afterlife in the standard D&D cosmology, so the choice of words is misleading. :smalltongue:

Well, "Celestia's Waiting Room" was a little unweildy, but you're right. :smallsmile:

[Green Bean]

Isn't this whole thread a spoiler? Ah well...

I actually think Roy will be in for a humbling experience when this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) sequence is repeated.

"You attacked an nonthreatening opponent who, though doubtlessly skewed, was acting in the interest of the entire city, rather than attempting to take them into custody."

Roy will abruptly have to realize that, despite how much he hates and reviles Miko, his reaction to her was identical to her reaction to Shojo, emotional and murderous.

((Ironically, Miko might be told the same thing, as that quote applies to her and Shojo as well))

Of course, then he'd continue to the next comic, where he shows his murderous intent by inflicting non-lethal damage. :smallamused:

[Winged One]

Isn't this whole thread a spoiler? Ah well...

I actually think Roy will be in for a humbling experience when this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) sequence is repeated.

"You attacked an nonthreatening opponent who, though doubtlessly skewed, was acting in the interest of the entire city, rather than attempting to take them into custody."

Roy will abruptly have to realize that, despite how much he hates and reviles Miko, his reaction to her was identical to her reaction to Shojo, emotional and murderous.

((Ironically, Miko might be told the same thing, as that quote applies to her and Shojo as well))

Consider, however, that the last blow in that fight was nonlethal and Miko was nowhere near as helpless as Shojo. Still, you have a valid point there, since Miko had the potential for a My God(s) What Have I Done (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.MyGodWhatHaveIDone) moment at the time, going by her dialogue.

[Green Bean]

Consider, however, that the last blow in that fight was nonlethal and Miko was nowhere near as helpless as Shojo. Still, you have a valid point there, since Miko had the potential for a My God(s) What Have I Done (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.MyGodWhatHaveIDone) moment at the time, going by her dialogue.

You're trying to steal all of the board's free time with that site! Admit it! :smallwink:

[FujinAkari]

Of course, then he'd continue to the next comic, where he shows his murderous intent by inflicting non-lethal damage. :smallamused:

That is a question of interpretation and has not been verified by the comic.

[Winged One]

You're trying to steal all of the board's free time with that site! Admit it! :smallwink:

BWAHAHAHA!

That is a question of interpretation and has not been verified by the comic.

Well, Miko didn't die, and by Roy's level negative hp values only rarely come into play(unless he decided not to Power Attack so that if he didn't get her he'd at least distract her from finishing Hinjo with the 2d6+STR*1.5+5, I suppose).

[Querzis]

That is a question of interpretation and has not been verified by the comic.

Interpretation? Lol. She wasnt cut in two half, she was sent flying across the room, he obviously hit with the flat of the blade which is what Non-lethal damage is all about, the first strike was non-lethal too. Miko didnt died and she woke up maybe two hours after that in a cell so it has been verified in the comic, it was non-lethal damage.

[chibibar]

The thing is that human in general are flaw. (using some real life stuff) it is very difficult to be good ALL the time. Roy is not perfect, but generally try to do good all his life. Sure he can be sarcastic (it is not an evil act to be sarcastic IMO)

[Green Bean]

Sure he can be sarcastic (it is not an evil act to be sarcastic IMO)

No, really? :smallamused:

[lonewolf23k]

And if anyone brings out Belkar as damning evidence, I should point out something..

If anything, Roy's been trying to keep Belkar's evil in check, and use it in the service of the greater good. And I think he's been doing a decent job, considering that Belkar's greater acts of evil have occured while he's not been under Roy's watchful eye.

That's gotta count for something, right?

[Querzis]

And if anyone brings out Belkar as damning evidence, I should point out something..

If anything, Roy's been trying to keep Belkar's evil in check, and use it in the service of the greater good. And I think he's been doing a decent job, considering that Belkar's greater acts of evil have occured while he's not been under Roy's watchful eye.

That's gotta count for something, right?

Of course. Miko would only kill Belkar. Roy, Shojo or Hinjo, however, prefers to control him. Smiting anything you detect as evil when you can capture them or talk to them doesnt sounds really good which is why Miko had always been a bad paladin, even before she met the order.

[yoshi927]

Interpretation? Lol. She wasnt cut in two half, she was sent flying across the room, he obviously hit with the flat of the blade which is what Non-lethal damage is all about, the first strike was non-lethal too. Miko didnt died and she woke up maybe two hours after that in a cell so it has been verified in the comic, it was non-lethal damage.Non-lethal? Lol.

You're diverging from the original point. The argument was that he ATTACKED a confused and just-fallen paladin who was working for the best interest of the city, as far as she knew. Miko didn't attack anybody until Roy started it. Except for Shojo, but that's where the "best interest of the city as far as she knew" comes in.

The main problem with this thread is that too many people like Roy and somehow view it as an attack on him. :smallmad:

[Kish]

And if anyone brings out Belkar as damning evidence, I should point out something..

If anything, Roy's been trying to keep Belkar's evil in check, and use it in the service of the greater good. And I think he's been doing a decent job, considering that Belkar's greater acts of evil have occured while he's not been under Roy's watchful eye.

That's gotta count for something, right?
Since Roy often lets (lets? what am I saying? Roy's only had Belkar on a leash at all since Azure City, and my respect for him plummeted when he was willing, even eager, to see Belkar remove the Mark of Justice) Belkar out from under his watchful eye, it mainly counts for Roy being an idiot.

Sorry, but no. If Roy was doing a good job at keeping Belkar in check, then I know three low-level human barbarians who would still be alive. The acceptable number of innocents killed is 0.

[Wolfman42666]

Since Roy often lets (lets? what am I saying? Roy's only had Belkar on a leash at all since Azure City, and my respect for him plummeted when he was willing, even eager, to see Belkar remove the Mark of Justice) Belkar out from under his watchful eye, it mainly counts for Roy being an idiot.

Sorry, but no. If Roy was doing a good job at keeping Belkar in check, then I know three low-level human barbarians who would still be alive. The acceptable number of innocents killed is 0.

Wow. Your charitable (not!) Also:

The acceptable number of innocents killed is 0
They were in a Barbarian's guild, sorry but I don't count anyone playing barbarian as "innocent", hell I don't count anyone over 11 as innocent. Your argument falls on two fronts. Also I thought the point of DnD (joke, it's actually just a good perk) is killing people without actually KILLING anyone.
Actually you sound like Miko, now maybe I'm being harsh but holy hells you must be a right joy to party with.
Anyone else for vodka?
....Hmm? Oh right topic.
Roy's review will probably hold a few surprises, but nothing horrible; I mean why send a deva in the first place if you know the guy's a horror.

Ps. I've never observed someone simultaneously hate both Belkar and Roy before.

[....]

You're diverging from the original point. The argument was that he ATTACKED a confused and just-fallen paladin who was working for the best interest of the city, as far as she knew. Miko didn't attack anybody until Roy started it. Except for Shojo, but that's where the "best interest of the city as far as she knew" comes in.

I'm pretty sure after the gods curse you and cast you away from their favor for killing a major force of good for no reason other than the fact you are insane, they don't really care if a fighter starts tearing you up.

And Roy is human. He was pissed about the fact that Miko just murdered one of the only people who was actually trying to save the world. He attacked her and she didn't waste any time in deciding that it was Roy who tricked her into kill Shojo. I'm pretty sure if they had just sat there she would still have come to the same conclusion and tried to kill everyone around; since that seems to be how Miko solves problems.

[Yogi]

You're diverging from the original point. The argument was that he ATTACKED a confused and just-fallen paladin who was working for the best interest of the city, as far as she knew. Miko didn't attack anybody until Roy started it. Except for Shojo, but that's where the "best interest of the city as far as she knew" comes in.

The main problem with this thread is that too many people like Roy and somehow view it as an attack on him. :smallmad:Miko already stated that Roy, Belkar, and Shojo were agents of Evil. She then killed one of them. What are the other two supposed to do?

Being Lawful Good doesn't preclude Sneak Attack (sort of), Bitch. Of course, after she was offered redemption (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) and had time to reflect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) she was still as crazy as ever.

You say Miko thought she was working in the best intrests of the city, so was Roy. However, Roy has the benefit of ACTUALLY working in the best interests of the city.

[Porthos]

Non-lethal? Lol.

You're diverging from the original point. The argument was that he ATTACKED a confused and just-fallen paladin who was working for the best interest of the city, as far as she knew. Miko didn't attack anybody until Roy started it. Except for Shojo, but that's where the "best interest of the city as far as she knew" comes in.

The main problem with this thread is that too many people like Roy and somehow view it as an attack on him. :smallmad:

Wow, that's some twisted logic you got going there. :smallwink:

What you are basically saying is that Miko didn't attack anyone that she didn't think deserved it. Well, the main problem with your logic is that she thought everyone in the room, with the exception of Hinjo at that time, was deserving of being attacked! She just murdered her liege in cold blood. You know, the one she had implicit faith and respect for her entire life.

If she can turn on a dime on one of her most beloved figures in her life, with almost zero justification, what makes you think she will listen to anyone else? Remember, the sane way to deal with the Shojo situation is to either demand answers or lock him up until you can verify his villainy. If you really had put your faith and trust in Shojo you would want to make absolutely sure that you are right when you attack one of your closest friends in your life.

The fact that Miko became Judge, Jury, and Executioner in the span of less than five minutes just shows how far gone she was.

Besides, if Roy had waited Miko would have gone on a killing spree in the room. How do I know this? Because not even Hinjo (another person that Miko, supposedly, put implicit faith and trust) could talk Miko down from her psychotic high.

Let me repeat that: Not even Hinjo could talk Miko down from her psychotic high.

And, yes, psychotic is the exact right word to use. The fact that Miko thought she was acting in the best interests of the city is, quite frankly, 100% irrelevant.

100%.

Just because someone, in their deluded insanity, thinks they are acting in a sane and just way, doesn't mean that they are. So Roy decided to step in and act. And let's not forget something: Hinjo said Roy did nothing wrong when he attacked Miko except for "perhaps enjoying the beating more than was entirely healthy."

So the Paladin in the room didn't think it was an evil act to attack Miko. Unwise? Maybe. But certainly not evil. And if the Paladin In Good Standing in the room didn't think it was evil, why would the Gods?

Still.... Now that Miko has been injected into this thread, I expect it to turn into Yet Another 10 Page Argument Over How Miko Is Terribly Terribly Misunderstood. :smallamused:

[yoshi927]

Screw it. I probably could, but I'm not going to waste my time arguing with three different people at once when there's little-to-zero chance of changing anyone's mind.

[Adghar]

*nitpicks*
You mean, like:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/Adghar/Untitled-1-1.gif
Untitled-1-1, the strip slay, recaptioned by Adghar, is not endorsed in any way by Rich Burlew and/or any of its affiliates. Untitled-1-1 is not trying to infringe on Rich Burlew's copyrighted material, which includes Roy and all the characters from his strip, or take business away from Rich Burlew. It's just a lame strip slay for entertainment value.

[Kish]

Wow. Your charitable (not!) Also:

They were in a Barbarian's guild, sorry but I don't count anyone playing barbarian as "innocent", hell I don't count anyone over 11 as innocent. Your argument falls on two fronts.
It takes a little more than being addressed to someone who "doesn't count anyone over 11 as innocent" and therefore doesn't consider the deaths of three innocent people unacceptable for an argument to fail*, on any number of fronts. I wasn't aware the barbarian class was evil-alignment only.

I'll ignore the personal insults.

*Unless you just mean "fails to convince you," in which case I'll somehow have to live with being unable to convince you.

[Wolfman42666]

Taking Miko out of the conversation for a sec.

(I know, what an alien concept:smalltongue:)

(The following is a joke and should be taken as such)

Roy's on the way into the plane of pure law and good, for all it's cracked up to be, I hear if you visit the place the *laws* of the plane are forced on you, that wouldn't be so bad if you could do anything there without any scrutiny, but something tells me you can't.

Roy Broke a major biological law purely for his own well being, I mean you could put together the argument that he was acting in to help Elan, but he could have tried to reason with the assassin's or taken a silver bullet for Elan, and made sure they found him while dying but he didn't.

(I'm fully aware the situation was contrived for humour purposes, as a joke, but so was this whole post, nyah:smalltongue::smallamused:, god I love irony:smallbiggrin: and satire)

(The previous was a joke, apparently a bad one, the following is serious)


Edit: To Kish: Sorry, the "personal" insults weren't meant to be personal, just childish,

Second I'm not saying Barbarian's are evil, but it's so hard to not brake the law when your strong enough to get away with it, my only excuse is we're only human, The innocent comments were, well more of a rant.

*I* haven't felt innocent in the same sense since I was 11, If that's just me I apologise,
and even V (who I have nothing but respect for, that d4 hurts) *Knew* (s)he was guilty of crimes, Haley has her reasons, Belkar's a psychopath, and technically Durkon's guilty of adultery (even if he didn't know it at the time)

Hell anyone over 21 is guilty of speeding. (at least were I live, and I've got lots of decent people to admit it, not so many nasty people, maybe it has to do with being honest)

Sorry, innocent isn't something anyone can keep up. (in my opinion)

Oh, and I've been reprimanded for my insults before, I did go overboard and I am sorry.:smallfrown:

Also apart from the apology this post was a joke, I'll make that more obvious.

Also also, how do you do that line thing across the post to seperate things?

[Porthos]

For the people claiming that Roy is in for a tough time coming up (as opposed to a humorous time coming up, which is completely different :smalltongue: ), where should he end up?

If people think Roy is unsuitable for the LG heaven, then which afterlife should he be destinied for?

Cards on the table, as the saying goes. :smallamused:

[Porthos]

Taking Miko out of the conversation for a sec.

(I know, what an alien concept:smalltongue:)

Roy's on the way into the plane of pure law and good, for all it's cracked up to be, I hear if you visit the place the *laws* of the plane are forced on you, that wouldn't be so bad if you could do anything there without any scrutiny, but something tells me you can't.

Roy Broke a major biological law purely for his own well being (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html), I mean you could put together the argument that he was acting in to help Elan, but he could have tried to reason with the assassin's or taken a silver bullet for Elan, and made sure they found him while dying but he didn't.

(I'm fully aware the situation was contrived for humour purposes, as a joke, but so was this whole post, nyah:smalltongue::smallamused:, god I love irony:smallbiggrin:)

Errrr..... I think the whole point of that comic was that Roy was sacrificing something he held dear to him to help another person (and one that often frustrated him to no end to boot).

Self sacrifice to help others. Sounds fairly Good to me. :smallwink:

[Barbolanero]

Yet, the very idea of Miko being good just because she did what she think it was better doesn´t seem quite right, I think that it goes to everything, explicit and implicit in the comic about Miko. She was too self centered, like Oedipus, and therefore, although she was trying to be good, she wasm't. That´s my poin of view.

[Renx]

You're diverging from the original point. The argument was that he ATTACKED a confused and just-fallen paladin who was working for the best interest of the city, as far as she knew.
(emphasis mine)

Ehm... She killed (defenceless) the rightful leader of Azure City, a figurehead for an order of paladins, and GOT THE WRATH OF THE GODS ON HER. Afterwards, she tried to kill the then-rightful next-in-line. She fell. I strongly doubt that a priest or a cherubim would hold fighting a fallen angel (say, Lucifer Morningstar) against you in our irl pantheon. There is absolutely no way that fight can count against him. Intent doesn't count if you've no Gods to back you up.

Also, she was in no way defenceless. She could've easily thrown down her weapon and gone for atonement. She didn't. She was self-righteous and would've never atoned anyway. The world is a better place without her. If anything, Roy will be commended for "trying to prevent the one who blew up Azure City from doing harm."

[David Argall]

Ehm... She killed (defenceless)
Irrelevant. The victim being defenseless eliminates several defense to the crime, such as self-defense, but there is no plea to these defenses. Her crime is the same whether he was armed to the teeth or helpless.


the rightful leader of Azure City, a figurehead for an order of paladins,
The former rightful leader. He had just been deposed and arrested for a variety of crimes he was mostly guilty of. The discussion with Hinjo was whether to cart him off to jail or her more drastic ideas. And he was not at all a figurehead.


and GOT THE WRATH OF THE GODS ON HER.
Definitely. Clear evidence this was an evil act.


Afterwards, she tried to kill the then-rightful next-in-line. There is absolutely no way that fight can count against him.
This attack happened after the fight with Roy. And we note that Hinjo almost did get Miko to surrender. The charge that without the extra provocation from Roy, she would have surrendered can be proven, but it is highly reasonable.
As to Roy's attack in the first place. He is not an official of the city or the order of paladins. She was not resisting arrest, escaping, or engaging in any crime at that time. He thus has no authority to arrest or attack Miko. Legally his behavior is unprovoked assault and battery. Attacking to support Hinjo was within his rights and duties. Attacking someone, however guilty, who is simply standing there, is not.


Also, she was in no way defenceless.
Again, irrelevant. She was at that time making no threats to anyone at all. There was no sign that she would, and Roy did not care anyway. He just wanted to attack her.


If anything, Roy will be commended for "trying to prevent the one who blew up Azure City from doing harm."
But that was not his motive in attacking her. His act was purely one of revenge, a motive routinely denounced as evil.

Oh yes, we already have the opinion of LG Soon that her destroying the Gate was not a moral problem. It was not the best result, but it was acceptable LG behavior on her part.

So Roy gets a nick for CE behavior here. It is likely a small point, but it is still a black mark.

[Lord]

For the people claiming that Roy is in for a tough time coming up (as opposed to a humorous time coming up, which is completely different :smalltongue: ), where should he end up?

If people think Roy is unsuitable for the LG heaven, then which afterlife should he be destinied for?

Cards on the table, as the saying goes. :smallamused:

The Lawful good one I was simply stating that I think he will be feeling a bit guilty before the end of his Afterlife.

[Demented]

It was a perfectly Lawful Good takedown, as conforming to SOP-LG.11.301.miko-a
1. The attack was directly announced.
2. The target was capable of defending itself.
3. The target was an eventual danger to itself or others.
4. In lieu of detecting an Evil alignment, it totally made sense at the time.


An argument that he's more Neutral than Lawful would be easily forthcoming... Marking him as Evil would just be hilarious, however unlikely.

[Solo]

You're diverging from the original point. The argument was that he ATTACKED a confused and just-fallen paladin who was working for the best interest of the city, as far as she knew. Miko didn't attack anybody until Roy started it. Except for Shojo, but that's where the "best interest of the city as far as she knew" comes in.


She murdered a defenseless old man in cold blood. In the best interest of the city, of course.

[A Quiet Person]

S'funny that so many of these discussions rely heavily on the Alignment system, when the Order of the Stick has frequently shown us that system is rarely a good indicator for a person's ethics.

I mean, the origin story of the Snarl and Start of Darkness showed us that paladins can travel outside of their territory, slaughter goblins that are living in peace and yet remain Lawful Good.

I always thought that the divine approach to the game world was supposed to be unfair; the heavens of the OoTS world are populated with frivolous and argumentative gods who are happy to label entire races as evil and designate them as acceptable targets for murder. Durkon, for example, is a very principled character, but his god is a careless drunk.

So I've never understood the desire for people to wheel out these arguments about Roy being wrong for attacking Miko. If Roy gets a hard time with the bureaucratic deva, it'll probably be because the strip is making a comment on the alignment system being used like a straightjacket in D&D. A point that Rich seems to make often. And yet still this forum has endless picking over the alignment that certain characters should have based on their actions.

[Yogi]

Here's how thing break down.

{table=head]Roy|vs.|Miko

Attacked with intent to subdue|vs.|Attacked with intent to kill
Attacked a high level ex-Paladin|vs.|Attacked a very-old mid-level aristocrat
Attacked someone with a weapon she is proficient in|vs|Attacked someone who was sitting on a chair and without weapons
Felt justified in taking down a murderer|vs.|Felt justified in taking down a traitor and would-be mass murderer
Had irrefutable evidence that Miko is a murderer and had committed an evil or supremely chaotic act|vs.|Had evidence that Shojo had violated Azure City laws, but nothing relating to her actual accusations.
Knew that Miko believes that he and Belkar are in on he Evil Conspiracy, knows that Miko wants to kill them both, and knows that Beklar can't really defend himself. Hence, both he and Belkar are in clear and present danger.|vs.|Knew that Shojo had previously manipulated the result of a trial. Therefore, knew that Shojo might go free if put on trial.
Correctly believes that Miko is am unstable individual|vs.|Incorrectly believes that Shojo is Chaotic Evil.
Did what he thought was right, which doesn't save him from fan condemnation|vs.|Did what she felt was right, which excuses her actions.
[/table]


On a semi-related note, to those who think that Roy was not justified in attacking Miko, what did you think about Miko attacking Roy's party both in their first encounter, and when the group decided to resist arrest after the inn?

[Kish]

Edit: To Kish: Sorry, the "personal" insults weren't meant to be personal, just childish,
Oh, I probably overreacted.

Miko aside--far aside :smallyuk: --I've never thought Roy's restraint on Belkar was anywhere near adequate. If it was, he (Belkar) would never get out from under it, even long enough to recreationally kill one surrendering goblin. I was impressed when Roy seemed to be entirely in agreement with the Mark of Justice and the eventuality of Belkar standing trial for murder and either being executed or sent to prison for a very long time; I was unimpressed when he seemed to be entirely in agreement with the Mark being removed and Belkar getting off scot-free. However, as far as the topic of this thread goes, I will be very surprised if the deva brings up "you let your crazy halfling companion murder people," both because I don't honestly believe Rich agrees with me about Roy's culpability there, and because of course he won't want to permanently tear the Order apart in any event.

[lonewolf23k]

About Belkar killing those three Barbarians... I think that qualifies more as a Chaotic act then an Evil one, seeing as how Gortok later tells Miko "He kills three of Gortok's guildmates for fun. He good at being Barbarian." Sounds like he wasn't even bothered in the slightest...

[David Argall]

Roy

Attacked with intent to subdue
- No evidence of this at all



Attacked a high level ex-Paladin, Attacked someone with a weapon she is proficient in
- This is simply irrelevant. If you are the attacker, you are in the wrong. It does not matter if the victim is armed, unarmed, competent, or incompetent with weapons, etc.



Knew that Miko believes that he and Belkar are in on he Evil Conspiracy, knows that Miko wants to kill them both, and knows that Beklar can't really defend himself. Hence, both he and Belkar are in clear and present danger.
Clearly false. The danger to Roy and Belkar is far from clear or present, and Roy is not attempting any defensive measure. He attacks, and when Miko tries to flee, he attempts to stop her flight, a flat negation of any plea of self-defense.



Correctly believes that Miko is am unstable individual
But this is a reason not to attack. He knows there is uncertainity whether she will attack anyone.



Did what she felt was right, which excuses her actions.
Now just who has said this? Her action was obviously evil, and justifiably ended her paladinhood. No dispute on that. What has been said is that there is mediation, not forgiveness.



On a semi-related note, to those who think that Roy was not justified in attacking Miko, what did you think about Miko attacking Roy's party both in their first encounter, and when the group decided to resist arrest after the inn?
She was the cop making the arrest. Roy was just attacking her.



It was a perfectly Lawful Good takedown, as conforming to SOP-LG.11.301.miko-a
1. The attack was directly announced.
Rather trivial. It is the attack itself that is moral or immoral.


2. The target was capable of defending itself.
Completely irrelevant. Again, it is the attack that matters. If the attack is justified it doesn't matter what defense it can muster. If it is not justified, again, it doesn't matter what defense the victim has.


3. The target was an eventual danger to itself or others.
"Eventual" is not justification for immediate attack.


4. In lieu of detecting an Evil alignment, it totally made sense at the time.
It makes sense in the sense that Roy was mad and wanted to take his pain out on Miko. But that is not moral justification.

[Yogi]

- No evidence of this at allMiko isn't dead, after one power-attack Sneak Attack Bitch.

- This is simply irrelevant. If you are the attacker, you are in the wrong. It does not matter if the victim is armed, unarmed, competent, or incompetent with weapons, etc.Incorrect. Police can use large amounts of force when trying to bring down someone brandishing a weapon, because that person is a threat to himself and others and needs to be subdued quickly. Using the same amount of force vs. an 80 year old diabetic granny in a wheelchair usually results in large lawsuits.

Clearly false. The danger to Roy and Belkar is far from clear or present, and Roy is not attempting any defensive measure. He attacks, and when Miko tries to flee, he attempts to stop her flight, a flat negation of any plea of self-defense.Being in the same room as a madwoman means you're in danger. With someone as high level and delusional as Miko, anyone she meets is at great risk, hence the need to keep her confined and subdued as soon as possible.

But this is a reason not to attack. He knows there is uncertainity whether she will attack anyone.If there is a madwoman holding a weapon, it's best to subdue her BEFORE she decides to start killing.

Now just who has said this? Her action was obviously evil, and justifiably ended her paladinhood. No dispute on that. What has been said is that there is mediation, not forgiveness.Why should her "mediation" be more important than the safety of the other three people in the room, as well as everyone else that might possibly get in her way at some point int he future. It isn't just a case of "I made a foolish mistake, forgive me 12 Gods for I have sinned", she is unable to tell right from wrong. Add in 16+ levels of Ex-Paladin, and you have someone that needs to be subdued before she can harm herself or others.

She was the cop making the arrest. Roy was just attacking her.Evidence that Miko had jurisdiction? Shoujo said they did, but he was pretending to be senile at the time and he knew it was all a ruse. Miko seems to think so, but we all know how reliable her view of reality is.

[Shatteredtower]

Miko isn't dead, after one power-attack Sneak Attack Bitch.The only nonlethal swing Roy made was the last one. Everything else, up until the point that Hinjo talked him down, was for lethal damage.

Roy didn't attack with intent to subdue. His only intention was to smack Miko around, with little concern for the consequences. Saying, "But the gods smacked her first!" doesn't fly.

[David Argall]

Miko isn't dead, after one power-attack Sneak Attack Bitch.
Miko isn't dead after the sword goes all the way thru her [something that can't be done with a non-lethal attack by the way]. She's got a lot of hp and Roy is just not mini-maxed enough to take her down quickly.


Police can use large amounts of force when trying to bring down someone brandishing a weapon,
Notice the word "brandishing". That does not mean holding. Websters "Brandish: To wave or shake menacingly." The guy brandishing a weapon is threatening to use it. The man carrying a weapon may or may not be.
But even when the thug is brandishing the weapon, the use of large amounts of force is not the immediate choice. The cop sees the guy waving the guy, he does not normally immediately shoot. Rather the approved tactic is to prepare to shoot while telling the thug to drop the weapon and surrender. If we take Roy as cop here, he has a duty to tell Miko to drop her sword and surrender. And he has a duty to extend that period of surrender for a substantial period of time, which can extend for days if it takes that to get a surrender.


Using the same amount of force vs. an 80 year old diabetic granny in a wheelchair usually results in large lawsuits.
Not if she is holding a gun and seems ready to shoot somebody.


Being in the same room as a madwoman means you're in danger. With someone as high level and delusional as Miko, anyone she meets is at great risk, hence the need to keep her confined and subdued as soon as possible.
If there is a madwoman holding a weapon, it's best to subdue her BEFORE she decides to start killing.
IF she is going to start killing, for starters. At the moment of Roy's attack, Miko seems in more danger of going catonic. The percent of nuts who go on killing sprees is distinctly low, and Roy's qualifications for judging such cases are pretty low too.
And note you said "subdue". Not attack to kill. Subdue. Roy doesn't call for surrender, or for the guards that can't be very far away. He attacks full force and with lethal intent.
And Roy does give us his motives. They have nothing to do with his, Belkar's, or anybody else's safety. He was mad, reasonably justifiably so, and he wanted to take that mad out on Miko. Pure assault with attempt to kill.


Why should her "mediation" be more important than the safety of the other three people in the room,
You are mixing apples and oranges, or simply entirely confused.
Mediation refers to the amount of her punishment, her degree of guilt, not the fact of it. None deny her guilt, but a number seem to ridiculously overpunish her. It has nothing to do with the safety of those in the room.


Evidence that Miko had jurisdiction? Shoujo said they did, but he was pretending to be senile at the time and he knew it was all a ruse. Miko seems to think so, but we all know how reliable her view of reality is.
Every legal system has jurisdiction whereever it says it does, unless some other legal system can tell it no. The idea that Miko was out of her jurisdiction would only be valid if she was something like a California cop arresting for a New York crime, with the case going to federal court. In the OOTS world, there is no federal court, and no NY. The claim of a lack of jurisdiction is just void.

[Querzis]

The only nonlethal swing Roy made was the last one. Everything else, up until the point that Hinjo talked him down, was for lethal damage.

Roy didn't attack with intent to subdue. His only intention was to smack Miko around, with little concern for the consequences. Saying, "But the gods smacked her first!" doesn't fly.

And the first one, you kow the one who did a big smack on her head instead of cutting it in two like it would have done if it was lethal damage? Once Roy had hit her once with Non-lethal, he didnt had to use non-lethal again. She was still going to be unconscious even if he attacked her only with lethal damage from that moment. I'm actually quite surprised he decided to attacked her again with non-lethal at the last strike, it was pretty much unecessary, he could have missed.

[David Argall]

Again this unsupported claim that there must be some nonlethal damage in this fight somehow. Apparently the idea is that since Roy is a nice guy, he wasn't trying to kill her. Bad news department: Nice guys kill a lot of people.

That first blow should have killed her if it was lethal damage? Well then so should have several other blows. Apparently they didn't come close. Roy had to hit her several times to drop her.
Roy is just not the maxed out fighter that can lay down 200 hp a round. In terms of our games, he is rather a wimp. His max damage per round just does not come close to dropping a healthy Miko. [She should likely die from the last blow, but she has plot immunity that stabilizes her at -9.]

You got a sword, you swing to hurt people. That is the default. You announce to the DM that you are using the flat of the blade. We have nothing here that counts as such an "announcement". Roy was swinging to kill.

[Kreistor]

David, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, except that she is thrown back by the blow, instead of cut in half. Knockback is more often a feature of blunt force rather than cutting force. We just don't know what is in the Giant's head, and there's not enough information in that panel to explain what happened. So I personally have to say it is plausible that it was a non-lethal blow and plausible it was a lethal blow.

[pjackson]

IF she is going to start killing, for starters. At the moment of Roy's attack, Miko seems in more danger of going catonic. The percent of nuts who go on killing sprees is distinctly low, and Roy's qualifications for judging such cases are pretty low too.

"IF"!?
Miko had already started killing.
Just seconds before she had murdered Shojo.
There was a 100% certainty that she was a nut who had already started killing.

[Kish]

About Belkar killing those three Barbarians... I think that qualifies more as a Chaotic act then an Evil one, seeing as how Gortok later tells Miko "He kills three of Gortok's guildmates for fun. He good at being Barbarian." Sounds like he wasn't even bothered in the slightest...

And Gortok, who doesn't even know what a pamphlet is, is the ultimate arbiter of morality? :smalltongue: Sorry, but no. Gortok's opinion on the matter isn't even relevant--though it could be used to argue Gortok's alignment being evil too, if that ever comes up.

[Lord]

I think we might be getting a bit off topic here seeing as this thread is about Roys afterlife. Not whether or not Roy did lethal damage.

[Hyozo]

I'm not going to comment on my oppinions of Roy's purity, but I am going to say that his purity, not Miko's or Belkar's, is what is in question.

[Gitman00]

Again this unsupported claim that there must be some nonlethal damage in this fight somehow.

*snip*

It's not an unsupported claim. After the first blow, there is a bruise on her face, not a cut. The crisscross pattern indicates a bruise. +5 swords to the face don't leave bruises when doing lethal damage; they leave cuts.

Furthermore, the final blow which knocks her out is very clearly a nonlethal blow. Again, a +5 sword doing lethal damage doesn't go "POW," it goes "SLASH".

The first blow is admittedly subject to some interpretation, but I think the evidence is in favor of nonlethal damage. The final blow is not the least bit ambiguous. You may disagree, but you can't say the claim is unsupported.


If we take Roy as cop here, he has a duty to tell Miko to drop her sword and surrender. And he has a duty to extend that period of surrender for a substantial period of time, which can extend for days if it takes that to get a surrender.

Take a look at that comic again. Miko was stunned and confused, yes. But consider the following: She had just committed murder, not 30 seconds ago. She lost her paladinhood, and then she picked up her weapon. To continue the cop analogy, if a dangerous and unpredictable murderer picks up his gun immediately after killing someone, you don't wait to see if he's going to use it. You shoot him. I don't think any cop in the world would tell you differently.

The next comic shows us what would have happened had Roy tried to reason with her. Just to throw in a little personal conjecture, I think it's entirely possible that the Giant put the exchange between Miko and Hinjo in there to show the readers that Roy was justified in his actions.

Hmmm. Let's see, how can I tie this into the original topic...

Roy may have some unpleasant truths to face with the deva, but I don't think that particular beating is going to count against him.

[Yogi]

Miko isn't dead after the sword goes all the way thru her [something that can't be done with a non-lethal attack by the way]. She's got a lot of hp and Roy is just not mini-maxed enough to take her down quickly.In D&D, you can take someone down to -9 and still have them stabalized and healed, especially with a Paladin nearby. The fact is, Miko is alive, while most of the other things Roy has attacked are not.

Notice the word "brandishing". That does not mean holding. Websters "Brandish: To wave or shake menacingly." The guy brandishing a weapon is threatening to use it. The man carrying a weapon may or may not be.Miko, someone who has sworn to kill agents of Evil declated Roy, Belkar, and Shojo agents of Evil. She then killed Shojo. She then picked up her dropped weapon. What do you THINK she's going to do with it, use it as a backscratcher?

But even when the thug is brandishing the weapon, the use of large amounts of force is not the immediate choice. The cop sees the guy waving the guy, he does not normally immediately shoot. Rather the approved tactic is to prepare to shoot while telling the thug to drop the weapon and surrender. If we take Roy as cop here, he has a duty to tell Miko to drop her sword and surrender. And he has a duty to extend that period of surrender for a substantial period of time, which can extend for days if it takes that to get a surrender.Fortunately for Roy, Azure City laws obviously allow much greater force, as evidence by what Miko considered acceptable use of force in HER arrest.

Not if she is holding a gun and seems ready to shoot somebody.How does this apply to Shojo?

IF she is going to start killing, for starters. At the moment of Roy's attack, Miko seems in more danger of going catonic. The percent of nuts who go on killing sprees is distinctly low, and Roy's qualifications for judging such cases are pretty low too.Except, of course, that her next attempted murder was less than 10 rounds later.

And note you said "subdue". Not attack to kill. Subdue. Roy doesn't call for surrender, or for the guards that can't be very far away. He attacks full force and with lethal intent.As I said before, you can tell when Roy attacks with lethal intent since the enemy winds up DEAD, not disabled. He has been shown to be willing to Coup de Grace disabled opponents to make sure they STAY down. Miko is, on the other hand, still alive.

Plus, what is Noname-zaki, the Level 3 Fighter going to do vs Miko?

And Roy does give us his motives. They have nothing to do with his, Belkar's, or anybody else's safety. He was mad, reasonably justifiably so, and he wanted to take that mad out on Miko. Pure assault with attempt to kill.Proof? He said Miko killed someone Very Important who tried to Save the World. Should killing someone good aligned make you immune to attack? Does that make one not a threat to others and not needing to be subdued? Subduing Miko was a necessary task, Roy just happened to enjoy it immensely.

You are mixing apples and oranges, or simply entirely confused. Mediation refers to the amount of her punishment, her degree of guilt, not the fact of it. None deny her guilt, but a number seem to ridiculously overpunish her. It has nothing to do with the safety of those in the room.It has everything to do with the safety of others.

Every legal system has jurisdiction whereever it says it does, unless some other legal system can tell it no. The idea that Miko was out of her jurisdiction would only be valid if she was something like a California cop arresting for a New York crime, with the case going to federal court. In the OOTS world, there is no federal court, and no NY. The claim of a lack of jurisdiction is just void.So if the arresting officer was Bulork the Blackguard Goblin, there to arrest the Order of the Stick for five zillion counts of murder, they should have gone along if the Goblin claimed juristiction.

[theinsulabot]

The next comic shows us what would have happened had Roy tried to reason with her. Just to throw in a little personal conjecture, I think it's entirely possible that the Giant put the exchange between Miko and Hinjo in there to show the readers that Roy was justified in his actions.


you know, this is actually an excellant point. i remember when that comic came up and roy attacked her. oh didnt the mob rise up. they were ready to string him up for not giving her time to think, then the next one, shijno took over and she still went stab happy. alot of people rather shame facedly admitted roy was right and miko needed to be apprehended. now however alot of people seem to have either reppressed or forgotten that as a sentiment i see again and again lately is that miko would of turned herself in had roy given her time.


which i might add is so shockingly out of character for her i cant help but wonder if somehow im reading a different comic then these people

[Shatteredtower]

It's not an unsupported claim. After the first blow, there is a bruise on her face, not a cut. The crisscross pattern indicates a bruise. +5 swords to the face don't leave bruises when doing lethal damage; they leave cuts.So if someone tried to shoot me in the head and only managed to graze my cheek, my attacker was clearly intending to cause nonlethal damage?

Roy's first attack was with a flaming sword, clear evidence of lethal force. The resulting bruise/burn merely indicates she got lucky (losing hit points, not her life).

Even if the first blow had been nonlethal, lethal force on later attacks could very well have killed Miko. He doesn't have the option of not declaring a critical hit, for one thing. The behaviour would be a bit more acceptable, as the attempt to subdue her quickly had failed and now she's trying to kill him.

Oh, wait. Look at the last three rows of panels again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) In the final panel of the third last row, Roy even appears to swing at her from behind, since her parrying motion appears to have involved at least a 180 degree swing. That's not really an issue within the rules, since the lack of facing rules prevent it from giving him an advantage (other than that for attacking a prone individual in the act of standing up). However, the real issue is on the next line, where she stuns him.

It seems most likely that she made this attack in the same round she stood up (making Roy's swing an attack of opportunity, though that's not an issue either), which means she only gets the one attack this round. What is significant about this, however, are the facts that the attack forced Roy to drop his weapon (stunned creatures drop held items) and Roy will be unable to act before it's Miko's turn again.

In other words, Miko had at least a round of free attacks available to her against Roy -- and ran away. Better yet, she'd get an attack of opportunity against him if he went to retrieve his sword at the cost of a move action, which means he can't make more than one attack before Miko would get yet another full attack routine against him.

Since Miko has at least a +11 BAB at her level, that's at least seven attacks (three at her best attack modifier -- and two of those before Roy could hope to retaliate), four coming before Roy's one.

There's a slim chance that Miko had a full attack routine available to her in the round she attempted the stunning kick, which would have involved Roy spending a round taunting her while she used up her actions to retrieve her sword and stand, in which case she passed up on ten attacks to Roy's one, eight coming before Roy could retaliate. Admittedly, the next two would also be unarmed strikes (without the benefit of the flurry or follow up by the katana, as it looks as though she went all out on that first attack), which is almost certainly lower than her katana damage, but it still makes for a lot of hurting on Roy. If she had time for that as well, Roy comes across even worse, because he spent his round verbally taunting his enemy without even so much as demanding her surrender. I'm going to give Roy the benefit of the doubt here and assume he didn't have that free round (one could argue that standing is a move, which allows Miko to draw her weapon as part of the move). That still leaves us with two facts:

1. Roy never once called for Miko to surrender.
2. Miko passed up on a great opportunity to take Roy down for the third time.

Now before anyone argues that she ran to avoid getting triple-teamed by Hinjo and Belkar, she had no reason to believe that Hinjo would interfere at the time. She might not have heard Belkar mention that he wasn't going to be much use in this fight, but it was pretty clear that if he was going to get involved in the fight, he'd have done it by now, rather than walking to the door.


The next comic shows us what would have happened had Roy tried to reason with her.

No, it doesn't. It certainly doesn't show us what would have happened if Hinjo had attempted to reason with Miko without Roy having first verbally and physically assaulting her. Hinjo was so close to talking her down even without that penalty to the check -- which could have been replaced if Roy had instead put his efforts into aiding said check.

That's assuming there was some sort of Charisma check involved in this scene, of course. In any case, however, it's abundantly clear that Roy's actions made a bad situation worse.

I understand him losing his temper, but he was in the wrong -- the far lesser of two wrongs compared to Miko's, admittedly, but still in the wrong.

[Porthos]

I understand him losing his temper, but he was in the wrong -- the far lesser of two wrongs compared to Miko's, admittedly, but still in the wrong.

Strange. In #409, Hinjo himself said that Roy didn't do anything wrong by attacking Miko.

You must overlooked that bit of info, right? :smallwink:

EDIT::::::::::::::::::

BTW, are you guys seriously suggesting that if Roy was a Paladin, he would have Fallen for attacking Miko. Coz that is exactly the implication given by saying that Roy committed an (even a minor) evil act.

And you know what? If I were DMing that situation, it wouldn't even cross my mind to strip Roy of (in this case hypothetical) his Paladin Powers.

But I guess that other people view the situation differently. :smallwink:

[Shatteredtower]

In D&D, you can take someone down to -9 and still have them stabalized and healed, especially with a Paladin nearby.

And if Roy knew exactly how many hit points Miko had and could control the damage roll sufficiently to guarantee he didn't bring put her at -10 hit points with a single blow, that might be a valid argument. He can't, therefore, it's not.


Miko, someone who has sworn to kill agents of Evil declated Roy, Belkar, and Shojo agents of Evil. She then killed Shojo. She then picked up her dropped weapon. What do you THINK she's going to do with it, use it as a backscratcher?You're leaving out the most important detail, the one that goes between killing Shojo and dropping her weapon? You know -- the one that took not only her powers but also her certainty that the action she'd just taken was right?

It's not surprising that she'd pick up the weapon again after a shock like that, uncertain of what's to happen next. It might have even been a mistake -- except that it didn't really matter. Roy didn't attack her because she was armed. He attacked her because he just wanted to beat on her, any way he could. And while I sympathize with his frustration, it was still wrong.


Except, of course, that her next attempted murder was less than 10 rounds later.After first passing up on the chance to kill Roy, who had attacked her with lethal force and was now helpless. Belkar would have been perfectly safe if he hadn't been blocking her avenue of escape, even though he undeniably was what she'd been trained to destroy.


As I said before, you can tell when Roy attacks with lethal intent since the enemy winds up DEAD, not disabled.One word: Xykon.

Roy didn't give a damn about whether Miko survived when he attacked her, which is all that matters. It doesn't matter that he didn't finish her off when she was unconscious. What matters is that, up until Hinjo intervened, he'd been leaving it up to chance that she'd wind up unconscious, rather than dead


Subduing Miko was a necessary task, Roy just happened to enjoy it immensely.Subduing Miko with force, lethal or otherwise, was not shown to be necessary at the time Roy attacked, making his actions unacceptable. The cheap shots at Miko's lack of a sex life (when it's clear that she doesn't have any sort of social life at all) was just icing on the cake.


It has everything to do with the safety of others.No. It had everything to do with Roy having an excuse to beat on Miko. Concern for the safety of others was not why he did it.

[Yogi]

BTW, it's stated that regicide is a capital crime in Azure City. Hence, anything short of death is less than what Miko deserves.

[Shatteredtower]

Strange. In #409, Hinjo himself said that Roy didn't do anything wrong by attacking Miko.

You must overlooked that bit of info, right? :smallwink:

Not at all. I just kept it in context. Try it sometime. :smallwink:

Hinjo's talking about criminal actions, not moral behaviour.


BTW, are you guys seriously suggesting that if Roy was a Paladin, he would have Fallen for attacking Miko. Coz that is exactly the implication given by saying that Roy committed an (even a minor) evil act.Why did Roy attack Miko? It wasn't for justice.

It was because he likes having an excuse to beat the crap out of things that annoy him. That was all there was to it. His actions were petty, vengeful, and selfish. Understandable? Sure, I can see how he'd have become this frustrated and acted it out like this. (Not all of that frustration can be laid at Miko's feet, however. She was just the first outlet he found acceptable.) Likely to cause an alignment shift? Nope. Evil? Yes, indeed.

[Shatteredtower]

BTW, it's stated that regicide is a capital crime in Azure City. Hence, anything short of death is less than what Miko deserves.False conclusion. A capital offense is one for which one is eligible for a sentence of execution -- not necessarily one for which the convicted must be executed.

[Porthos]

Not at all. I just kept it in context. Try it sometime. :smallwink:

Me-ow. :smalltongue:

I think I'm quite capable of contextualizing, thenkyewveddymuch. :smallwink:


Hinjo's talking about criminal actions, not moral behaviour.

Really? I guess that's what interpretation is for.


Why did Roy attack Miko? It wasn't for justice.

It was because he likes having an excuse to beat the crap out of things that annoy him. That was all there was to it. His actions were petty, vengeful, and selfish.

Now I always thought that he attacked Miko cause he saw a MadCrazyPerson WiggingOut, and he didn't trust her to stay still. But that's just me. :smalltongue:


Evil? Yes, indeed.

Not IMC, as the saying goes. Not necessarily saying it was good, mind you. But evil? Wouldn't even cross my mind, as I said earlier. But different strokes for different folks, and all that. :smallwink:

[Twilight Jack]

And if Roy knew exactly how many hit points Miko had and could control the damage roll sufficiently to guarantee he didn't bring put her at -10 hit points with a single blow, that might be a valid argument. He can't, therefore, it's not.

Actually, it kind of is. I still support the notion that Roy's first strike was non-lethal. Throughout the entirety of the comic, and indeed all of comic-dom, the crosshatch wound mark implies bruising or abrasion, not a serious cut from a greatsword, especially one glowing with spooky green energy. In D&D, a character falls unconscious the moment that their subdual damage exceeds their current hit points. Roy taking the opportunity to catch her flat-footed with a subdual damage Power Attack helps to ensure that she does not die in the ensuing fight. From that point, he can feel more comfortable smacking her around with lethal damage, as the subdual damage she's sustained becomes the new benchmark for putting her down. Not like real life, but this comic is based upon D&D and there exists no shortage of jokes in the text about the assumptions implicit in that seperation from actual physics. Additionally, Hinjo's comment to Roy in the next comic strongly implies that Roy's actions bespoke an intention to "batter [her] into submission," not end her life.


You're leaving out the most important detail, the one that goes between killing Shojo and dropping her weapon? You know -- the one that took not only her powers but also her certainty that the action she'd just taken was right?

It's not surprising that she'd pick up the weapon again after a shock like that, uncertain of what's to happen next. It might have even been a mistake -- except that it didn't really matter. Roy didn't attack her because she was armed. He attacked her because he just wanted to beat on her, any way he could. And while I sympathize with his frustration, it was still wrong.

Not so. Roy attacked her because she had proven herself a lethal threat in a seriously unbalanced mental state. Further, Roy didn't have the same relationship with Miko that Hinjo had. In his own experience, discussion was not an option, especially after she'd proven the depth of her delusion. Her confusion afforded him the opportunity to seize the initiative and neutralize the threat that she still posed, being both armed and unbalanced. Reaching out to Miko at that moment might have been commendable (as it was with Hinjo), but the risks outweighed the rewards for Roy. Keep in mind that Hinjo, unlike Roy, had a vested interest in securing the atonement of a comrade.

Imagine a police officer gone rogue vigilante. He's unstable and armed when confronted at the scene of a murder he's committed by another officer who knows him. Despite the threat he poses, wouldn't that other officer try to reason with him, convince him to turn himself in? Under the exact same circumstances, any other suspect would already have been shot. So it is with Hinjo. He attempts to reason with Miko because he knows her and believes the best about her (which Roy most emphatically does not). Had a ninja shown up and whacked Shojo, Hinjo would have been right at the front of the line for kick ass first, ask questions later. Roy has already had ample evidence that this crazy bitch can't be reasoned with. He has an opening to put her down and he takes it, just like Hinjo would have if the murderer had been anyone other than a paladin.


After first passing up on the chance to kill Roy, who had attacked her with lethal force and was now helpless. Belkar would have been perfectly safe if he hadn't been blocking her avenue of escape, even though he undeniably was what she'd been trained to destroy.

Well sure, escape had become her first priority, but note the satisfaction she derives at the prospect of killing Belkar on her way out the door. She didn't finish off Roy because he was hardly helpless. She had succeeded in stunning him, sure, but she was still losing that fight and needed to retreat.


Roy didn't give a damn about whether Miko survived when he attacked her, which is all that matters. It doesn't matter that he didn't finish her off when she was unconscious. What matters is that, up until Hinjo intervened, he'd been leaving it up to chance that she'd wind up unconscious, rather than dead.

Perhaps somewhat leaving it up to chance, but deliberately skewing that chance (at a penalty to his attack roll) in favor of her survival.


Subduing Miko with force, lethal or otherwise, was not shown to be necessary at the time Roy attacked, making his actions unacceptable. The cheap shots at Miko's lack of a sex life (when it's clear that she doesn't have any sort of social life at all) was just icing on the cake.

She had just murdered a defenseless old man! The lightshow of her fall and her subsequent confusion notwithstanding, she had shown herself a credible threat with which someone needed to deal. Hinjo had run to the side of his uncle, so he wasn't going to be involved in the next round or two. If she had ceased to be a threat, then the burden of proof was on her. Roy had every right to continue to view her as such until such point as she surrendered. Unconditionally. Until that point, she's still a danger to everyone in the room.

Now admittedly, the cheap shots at her sex life were uncalled for. On the other hand, Roy doesn't like Miko at all. So he talked some boop. I don't remember anyone complaining when he's done it in the past.


No. It had everything to do with Roy having an excuse to beat on Miko. Concern for the safety of others was not why he did it.

I'll be the first to admit that Roy probably enjoyed having that opportunity a bit more than he should have (okay, so Hinjo was the first to admit it, but still). Roy certainly has some unresolved issues with Miko, as well as with his own conceptions of Good vs. the hardline Paladin police state concept that Miko exemplified. I'll also allow that Roy was angry to have his only ally in Azure City, and his (at the time, from his perspective) only chance to defeat Xykon and save the world, murdered in front of him by one of his least favorite people in the campaign setting. Don't make the mistake, however, of thinking that because you can ascribe certain personal motives to his actions, that those motivations were the only ones in operation. She was still dangerous, she had just committed murder in front of him, she needed to be neutralized by whatever means available. The vindication of his long-standing moral outrage against her wasn't what made it a job worth doing; it just made it a job worth savouring.

[Shatteredtower]

Really? I guess that's what interpretation is for.
Miko: "Then arrest Greenhilt as well! The Order of the Stick did this! I am sure of it!"
Hinjo: "Oh? Explain how."
Miko: "... I don't know! But they tricked Lord Shojo into saying those things!"
Hinjo: "Miko, even if Roy planned and executed an elaborate scenario where he managed to manipulate Shojo into admitting crimes of which he was not guilty -- which I find highly unlikely -- his hands were still not the ones on the sword that sliced through my uncle. Yours? Were. To my knowledge, Roy hasn't actually done anything wrong other than breaking an oath he never made."

That's the context.


Now I always thought that he attacked Miko cause he saw a MadCrazyPerson WiggingOut, and he didn't trust her to stay still. But that's just me. :smalltongue: "All that matters to me is that you just killed the only other person who was actively trying to fix this stupid end-of-the-world thing. Which means I am kicking your fallen ass RIGHT NOW!"

No, that sounds a lot more like, "You meddled in my affairs, so I'm going to beat you now."

I don't see that keeping him out of the celestial realms, but it's likely to come up on Roy's record, especially if there's a chance it needs to be resolved before he gets in -- such as in the case that Miko's cleared for entry as well, say. Why risk things getting ugly again?

[Twilight Jack]

"All that matters to me is that you just killed the only other person who was actively trying to fix this stupid end-of-the-world thing. Which means I am kicking your fallen ass RIGHT NOW!"

No, that sounds a lot more like, "You meddled in my affairs, so I'm going to beat you now."

Really? Because I read the same quote as, "You just murdered the best hope of survival for this world that I've met. You're going down!"


I don't see that keeping him out of the celestial realms, but it's likely to come up on Roy's record, especially if there's a chance it needs to be resolved before he gets in -- such as in the case that Miko's cleared for entry as well, say. Why risk things getting ugly again?

I think his enjoyment of said beating is likely to receive some mention, but the beating itself probably gets the thumbs up. Miko needed to be stopped before she did something crazy like destroy the gate. :smallwink:

[Yogi]

And if Roy knew exactly how many hit points Miko had and could control the damage roll sufficiently to guarantee he didn't bring put her at -10 hit points with a single blow, that might be a valid argument. He can't, therefore, it's not.OR he couls switch over to non-lethal when Miko is running low on HP. Even after that Greatsword-crit she was able to beat Hinjo handily. This is evidenced by Roy's LAST hit being non-lethal, not his first.

You're leaving out the most important detail, the one that goes between killing Shojo and dropping her weapon? You know -- the one that took not only her powers but also her certainty that the action she'd just taken was right?You're right, her certainty was utterly taken away. That's why she admitted she was wrong and surrended to Hinjo, no doubt. It's also the reason she broke out of prision and destroyed the Sapphite. Soon even complimented her, saying that she had realized she wasn't always wrong.

Bizzaro land is fun.

It's not surprising that she'd pick up the weapon again after a shock like that, uncertain of what's to happen next. It might have even been a mistake -- except that it didn't really matter. Roy didn't attack her because she was armed. He attacked her because he just wanted to beat on her, any way he could. And while I sympathize with his frustration, it was still wrong.Proof.

After first passing up on the chance to kill Roy, who had attacked her with lethal force and was now helpless. Belkar would have been perfectly safe if he hadn't been blocking her avenue of escape, even though he undeniably was what she'd been trained to destroy.First, she was running because Roy was beating her into a smear on the floor. Secondly, did you miss the part where she was happy at finally having a reason to execute Belkar. Miko will run from what she can't kill, and kill what she CAN kill (Hinjo falling into the second category).

One word: Xykon.Xykon's already dead.

Roy didn't give a damn about whether Miko survived when he attacked her, which is all that matters. It doesn't matter that he didn't finish her off when she was unconscious. What matters is that, up until Hinjo intervened, he'd been leaving it up to chance that she'd wind up unconscious, rather than deadRoy was perfectly capable of killing Miko with that last hit, or even following up and Coup de Grace her like he does with enemies he actually wants dead.

Subduing Miko with force, lethal or otherwise, was not shown to be necessary at the time Roy attacked, making his actions unacceptable. The cheap shots at Miko's lack of a sex life (when it's clear that she doesn't have any sort of social life at all) was just icing on the cake.This attitude MIGHT have been acceptable at the time the comic was published. However, ONE COMIC LATER it is proven that Roy was right and that Miko WAS dangerous. Your were wrong. Miko is dangerous. This has been proven. Any assertations otherwise must include why the attemted murder of Hinjo does not make Miko an armed and dangerous madwoman.

Hint:If you need some time to reflect on why killing the head of your executive branch is bad, or else you'll try and kill the dead of your executive branch, you're crazy.

No. It had everything to do with Roy having an excuse to beat on Miko. Concern for the safety of others was not why he did it.So, how many people would a murdurer have to kill before you advocate arresting her. As long as Miko looks contrite between each ganking, it's OK?


Edit: What about Nale? When Nale's party showed their true colors the first time, Roy didn't try to talk them out of it, or tried to see how contrite they were. No, he initiated Beatdown Mode and wiped the floor with them. Where is your outrage now?

[Porthos]

Shatteredtower:

If we're really going to play the "Quote What Hinjo Said" game, then all I have to say is: Game On :smalltongue:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif: Stay out of this Roy. We need to talk this out, not batter it into submission.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif: Roy hasn't done anything wrong except for breaking an oath he never made. <Said Quietly> And perhaps enjoying the beating he gave you more than was entirely healthy.

Notice the words that Hinjo used. "Battering into submission" and "beating". He did not say "attacking" or "killing" or any other sort of word that implies Lethal Force. No, if you read Hinjo's words in the context that they are given then it is obvious that Hinjo thought that Roy was trying to subdue Miko as opposed to killing her. Especially when you look at the language that Hinjo used to describe Miko's attack on Lord Shojo.

And you know what? I think I'll trust Hinjo's judgement on the situation. :smalltongue:

In fact, if Hinjo had really thought that Roy was going to kill Miko, then he would have to have to at least pay lip service* to the idea of arresting Roy for attempted murder/assult with a deadly weapon. Why do I say that? Simple:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif: Because we have the rule of law in this city, and the rule of law says that you don't get to kill people because they happen to do something wrong.

When you put that statement in context (there's that word again :smalltongue: ) with Hinjo's later statement that Roy did nothing wrong when he was battling Miko, only one conclusion can be made: Hinjo did not think that Roy was going to kill Miko.

QED, as they say. :smallsmile:

* NOTE: Or at least make a snarky comment about it. Like Hinjo does to Captain Axe, amongst other people.

[Hopeless]

So if someone tried to shoot me in the head and only managed to graze my cheek, my attacker was clearly intending to cause nonlethal damage?

Roy's first attack was with a flaming sword, clear evidence of lethal force. The resulting bruise/burn merely indicates she got lucky (losing hit points, not her life).

That flaming sword is actually a form of bane or disruption effect that only works on the undead and seemingly only happens on a critical hit


Even if the first blow had been nonlethal, lethal force on later attacks could very well have killed Miko. He doesn't have the option of not declaring a critical hit, for one thing. The behaviour would be a bit more acceptable, as the attempt to subdue her quickly had failed and now she's trying to kill him.
In other words, Miko had at least a round of free attacks available to her against Roy -- and ran away. Better yet, she'd get an attack of opportunity against him if he went to retrieve his sword at the cost of a move action, which means he can't make more than one attack before Miko would get yet another full attack routine against him.

Minor fact that when she lost her paladinnic abilities she probably lost her monk abilities for committing a chaotic act note her actions weren't exactly those of a lawful character



1. Roy never once called for Miko to surrender.
2. Miko passed up on a great opportunity to take Roy down for the third time.
Now before anyone argues that she ran to avoid getting triple-teamed by Hinjo and Belkar, she had no reason to believe that Hinjo would interfere at the time. She might not have heard Belkar mention that he wasn't going to be much use in this fight, but it was pretty clear that if he was going to get involved in the fight, he'd have done it by now, rather than walking to the door.

Belkar stood his ground, Roy's actions was in defence of a comrade something very LG even if Belkar is under the effects of a mark of justice do you honestly think Roy is going to hesitate when the one person who could have helped him achieve his blood quest was slain right in front of him by someone who has already shown herself as utterly inflexible and more to the point as dangerous as Xykon in her own way imagine what would have happened if the Sapphire Guards greatest paladin chose instead to be Shojo's replacement?

Still it will be interesting to see what happens next...

[Shatteredtower]

Actually, it kind of is. I still support the notion that Roy's first strike was non-lethal. Throughout the entirety of the comic, and indeed all of comic-dom, the crosshatch wound mark implies bruising or abrasion, not a serious cut from a greatsword, especially one glowing with spooky green energy.So you're saying that one of the hobgoblins in this scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) tried to take Belkar alive? Xykon was pulling his swarm as evidenced by the mark we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)?

All it means is that Roy didn't get in a good hit with a weapon that emits "a deadly green energy" that is particularly harmful to the undead. His stance is set for a lunge, not a batter's stance.


Not so.Very much so. Read what he said again. This is about taking out his frustrations on Miko. Everything else is excuses.


Roy has already had ample evidence that this crazy bitch can't be reasoned with.About as much evidence as Miko had to suspect collusion between Xykon, the Order of the Stick, and Shojo, actually.

Miko is not crazy, and I'm tired of the misogyny inherent in calling her a bitch. She behaved irresponsibly, as did Roy.


He has an opening to put her down and he takes it, just like Hinjo would have if the murderer had been anyone other than a paladin.Nonsense. Hinjo would have tried to peacefully take any assassin that appeared disoriented, confused, and otherwise disabled after the event -- like Miko was.


Well sure, escape had become her first priority, but note the satisfaction she derives at the prospect of killing Belkar on her way out the door.Of course. Belkar was undeniably evil and apparently walking free after committing murder. This was the opportunity to address one injustice. Unnecessary and illegal certainly, but that's not the issue.


She didn't finish off Roy because he was hardly helpless. She had succeeded in stunning him, sure, but she was still losing that fight and needed to retreat.She had succeeded in stunning him and forced him to drop the sword. She'd get no less than four more swings at him before he'd be able to strike back, two at her full bonus (and she seems to have an easy enough time scoring hits on her iterative attacks as well), and three on the follow-up.

That is not a losing position for her, not when you consider how many times she beat him and four others. Sure, he had only a greatclub then, and she had her paladin powers and Windstriker, but her paladin powers are not relevant to this fight and the difference of a club and horse are not enough to explain her victory over five to two odds.


She had just murdered a defenseless old man!Irrelevant. That's just an excuse. She was vulnerable, and he attacked. Having a sword did not give him a right to do so any more than Miko would have been within her rights to execute Shojo if he'd been armed and Hinjo's equal in combat.


Roy had every right to continue to view her as such until such point as she surrendered.Roy was not interested in her surrender. He's interested only in kicking her ass, and says as much.


Until that point, she's still a danger to everyone in the room.Not shown to be the case.


Now admittedly, the cheap shots at her sex life were uncalled for. On the other hand, Roy doesn't like Miko at all. So he talked some boop. I don't remember anyone complaining when he's done it in the past.There's no statute of limitations on declaring when that sort of thing is out of line, and it's always been out of line with Miko. Show me a comparable cheap shot taken at Nale or Xykon.


Don't make the mistake, however, of thinking that because you can ascribe certain personal motives to his actions, that those motivations were the only ones in operation.I'm to assume that Roy misspoke?


She was still dangerous, she had just committed murder in front of him, she needed to be neutralized by whatever means available.She was as dangerous as anyone holding a weapon and asking for help is. If she was truly a threat, Roy could have accomplished the exact same thing we saw him do by readying an action to attack her if she made an offensive move.

He didn't try that, nor did he attempt to talk her down. We're talking serious levels of, "Honey, we're out of milk," here.


The vindication of his long-standing moral outrage against her wasn't what made it a job worth doing; it just made it a job worth savouring.Roy's behaviour toward Miko has never afforded him the right to vindication. If anything, his hostility toward her seems to be just one more demonstration of his insecure masculinity.

[Porthos]

Show me a comparable cheap shot taken at Nale or Xykon.

Nale has been called a bastard on more than (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html) one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) occasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)

As for Xykon, I am of the opinion that Roy was far too pissed off to actually swear when he battled him. :smallwink:

PS: Sabine has been the recipent of the B word as well (delivered by both [at least] Roy and Haley, in this case).

[sammiel]

tower, do you really believe any of the stuff you're saying, or are you just trolling?

Because everytime someone comes up with a counterpoint that you can't beat, you come up with some incredibly farfetched stretch of the imagination to explain or justify your position. How much time did you spend combing through the comics to try and find frames with specific pictures of injuries to try and claim that Roy never attacked to subdue?

I'm sorry, but how can you possibly claim that Miko isn't crazy, aside from just saying 'Miko isn't crazy'?

[SmartAlec]

He'll have no problems.

If this LG Mountain is anything like Mount Celestia from the Manual of the Planes, then you don't need to have lived a perfect life to get in. Getting in Mount Celestia is being given the chance to purify oneself before achieving spiritual perfection, by climbing the Mountain's layers until you reach the pinnacle. Roy's led a virtuous enough life, I think, to be considered the kind of person who would take that seriously and solemnly, and work hard at it; which is all you need, really.

I'm not entirely sure what the deal with Miko is; Roy's not a Paladin, but even if he had been, most Paladins would likely have done what he did. Hinjo is, perhaps, an exceptional case, when put against other Paladins we've seen in the series; especially the Paladin from Roy's first adventuring party. Even if Roy's intentions and thoughts towards Miko were very dark indeed, it doesn't matter; A Lawful Good alignment doesn't mean you cannot indulge hate and revenge. It DOES mean you can't indulge hate and revenge in a manner that harms innocent people, or threatens or contradicts the law of the land, without taking an alignment hit; but attacking Miko certainly did neither.

After all, looking at the annoyance on the Deva's face when she reminds Eugene of his assault on an Archon, even Angels feel anger when it is justified; and that's why they call it righteous anger.

[Shatteredtower]

OR he couls switch over to non-lethal when Miko is running low on HP.And he would know when that was how?

Right, he wouldn't. That argument doesn't work.


You're right, her certainty was utterly taken away. That's why she admitted she was wrong and surrended to Hinjo, no doubt.I said her certainty was taken away. That is not the same as admitting to wrongdoing. It is also not the same as saying that she'd never find new certainty.


First, she was running because Roy was beating her into a smear on the floor.Roy was stunned, his sword at his feet. She'd beaten him fairly quickly the last time they fought, and none of her paladin abilities made a difference when it came to fighting him. (Saving throws against V's spells, sure, but V's not in the throne room.)

Miko ran once she'd gained a clear advantage over Roy, as has already been shown.


Secondly, did you miss the part where she was happy at finally having a reason to execute Belkar.Nope. Is there any reason she shouldn't be satisfied with seeing evil vanquished?



Miko will run from what she can't kill...Considering how quickly she went through Roy's hit points the first two times they fought, she ought to have been able to kill him this time. Heaven help him if she's got more than one level in monk.


Xykon's already dead.Undead. Not destroyed, however, which puts the lie to the claim about Roy killing (destroying if you will) what he intends to cause lethal harm to.


Roy was perfectly capable of killing Miko with that last hit, or even following up and Coup de Grace her like he does with enemies he actually wants dead.Sure. Congratulations to him for changing his mind after Hinjo intervened and made a point about how far out of line Roy was.


This attitude MIGHT have been acceptable at the time the comic was published. However, ONE COMIC LATER it is proven that Roy was right and that Miko WAS dangerous.Yes, because beating someone puts them in a cooperative mood. So much for that line of argument.


So, how many people would a murdurer have to kill before you advocate arresting her. As long as Miko looks contrite between each ganking, it's OK?Roy wasn't arresting her. He was beating on her. Hinjo arrested her.


Edit: What about Nale? When Nale's party showed their true colors the first time, Roy didn't try to talk them out of it, or tried to see how contrite they were. No, he initiated Beatdown Mode and wiped the floor with them. Where is your outrage now?Nale came prepared for yet another fight, so this point is also moot.

[Porthos]

OR he couls switch over to non-lethal when Miko is running low on HP.

And he would know when that was how?

Right, he wouldn't. That argument doesn't work.


Sure he would. Depending on how "meta" the game is, it's quite easy to ask the DM if the person I'm attacking looks to be low enough in HP's to start switching to subdual damage.

You either ask, "Hey, does he look like he's about to fall over?" or "does he look heavily bruised?" or (again, depending on how meta the game you are playing is) "does he look like he only has a few HPs left?"

Now a DM might make a skill check out of situation, or they might not. But I think just about any fighter (especially one as intelligent as Roy) would be able to tell if someone is about to go down or not. And I have played in plenty of games where the "switch to subdual damage when it looks like the combatant is about to go down" scenario plays out.

<JOKE>
Besides, in OOTSverse, all Roy has to do is see how many scratches and scuffmarks Miko had.

After all, it's what the rest of us do to determine how beat up someone is. :smalltongue:
</JOKE>

[theinsulabot]

And he would know when that was how?

Right, he wouldn't. That argument doesn't work.

I said her certainty was taken away. That is not the same as admitting to wrongdoing. It is also not the same as saying that she'd never find new certainty.

Roy was stunned, his sword at his feet. She'd beaten him fairly quickly the last time they fought, and none of her paladin abilities made a difference when it came to fighting him. (Saving throws against V's spells, sure, but V's not in the throne room.)

Miko ran once she'd gained a clear advantage over Roy, as has already been shown.

Nope. Is there any reason she shouldn't be satisfied with seeing evil vanquished?


Considering how quickly she went through Roy's hit points the first two times they fought, she ought to have been able to kill him this time. Heaven help him if she's got more than one level in monk.

Undead. Not destroyed, however, which puts the lie to the claim about Roy killing (destroying if you will) what he intends to cause lethal harm to.

Sure. Congratulations to him for changing his mind after Hinjo intervened and made a point about how far out of line Roy was.

Yes, because beating someone puts them in a cooperative mood. So much for that line of argument.

Roy wasn't arresting her. He was beating on her. Hinjo arrested her.

Nale came prepared for yet another fight, so this point is also moot.


cant be bothered to read all of it, because points 1, 2, and 3 were not only completely incorect but the amount of meta game knowledge required to MAKE argumants 1,2 and 3 are in themselves enough that by all rights he has to KNOW there wrong, so at this point he is just trolling, or just to stubborn to admit he is wrong.

first off, as a matter of fact, in the OOTS world, battle scarring is clearly evident. you dont think maybe a trained warrior could note and recognise when an enemy is reaching his/her limit?

[Scrubbed]

second, roy without a weapon is not a mage without spells. odds are he has any number of unarmed combat talents (hell, he took on xykon unarmed, last i checked) and roy curtainly has enough hp top last a few rounds while he makes a check to retrieve his sword.

third. thats rght, killling is FUN all holy defenders of justice should feel exitement and joy in somethings death, not remorse that killing was nessasary, or pity for the fallen. GOGO murdering for the greater good!

[yoshi927]

third. thats right, killling is FUN all holy defenders of justice should feel exitement and joy in somethings death, not remorse that killing was nessasary, or pity for the fallen. GOGO murdering for the greater good!

Just like Roy "enjoying the beating he gave you more than is entirely healthy"? It's similar to the thrill that the OoTS felt at "Run?" "Nope. Charge." When you defeat a great force of evil (as Belkar is), it's a good thing.

Now, that's not to say that I want Belkar to die, though.

And it's just childish to insult people personally. If Tower's points are that bad, why don't you argue with them instead of just saying "they're bad"?

[theinsulabot]

Just like Roy "enjoying the beating he gave you more than is entirely healthy"? It's similar to the thrill that the OoTS felt at "Run?" "Nope. Charge." When you defeat a great force of evil (as Belkar is), it's a good thing.

Now, that's not to say that I want Belkar to die, though.

And it's just childish to insult people personally. If Tower's points are that bad, why don't you argue with them instead of just saying "they're bad"?

actually your right, neither of them were acting very nobly that fight, though i would still argue that only one of em actually has noble in there class description.

and to your second point, because as far as i could tell he was trying to cover up the fact that his arguments were complete adulterations of game and meta game mechanics because he wanted to be right, and i couldnt be bothered to read past the first 3 because by the time i had gotten that far the amount of incorrect information, misrepresentations, or out right lies were enough i didnt care to keep reading

[yoshi927]

actually your right, neither of them were acting very nobly that fight, though i would still argue that only one of em actually has noble in there class description.

and to your second point, because as far as i could tell he was trying to cover up the fact that his arguments were complete adulterations of game and meta game mechanics because he wanted to be right, and i couldnt be bothered to read past the first 3 because by the time i had gotten that far the amount of incorrect information, misrepresentations, or out right lies were enough i didnt care to keep reading

I'm still not sure if I get it. Those all seemed right to me.

First, you can't scan people's HP, it's not Final Fantasy. There is some meta there, but that's a meta response to a meta question.

Second, I suppose it's debatable whether her certainty was lost in the first place, but I doubt he's wrong about what he thinks.

Third, I don't really feel like checking back, but I think she ran after she stunning-kicked Roy.

There's nothing using meta-knowledge in any of those, and while they can be argued with, you can't just declare them "wrong" and expect me to believe you.

[Porthos]

I'm still not sure if I get it. Those all seemed right to me.

First, you can't scan people's HP, it's not Final Fantasy.

No, but as I said earlier, you can make a judgement call as to how beaten-up a person you are fighting is, and then switch tactics as appropiate. I (and people I've been gaming with) have been doing this for well over 25 years without a single problem. :smallsmile:

Besides, the world of OOTS isn't exactly short on meta-behavior. So I'm not quite sure why "Roy Deducing (Roughly) What Miko's HPs Are Would Be Meta" is an argument here. :smalltongue:

[Shadic]

And Roy actually was around for quite a bit during that Miko fight... The only times that we've actually seen him taken out were the Miko fights, having a large animal land on him, and a very large fall + meteor swarm.

[sammiel]

third. thats rght, killling is FUN all holy defenders of justice should feel exitement and joy in somethings death, not remorse that killing was nessasary, or pity for the fallen. GOGO murdering for the greater good!

Uh, no. You are one hundred percent wrong, and I wouldn't have responded to this but I really couldn't tell if you are being sarcastic.

Remorse, Pity, Forgiveness, and Redemption are the fundamental cornerstones of exalted behavior. When you enjoy killing beyond what is absolutely necessary to preserve life, you are on the slippery slope that leads to the nine hells. Not even Miko enjoyed the killing she did, although she wasn't particularly bothered by it, she never relished it.

[theinsulabot]

I'm still not sure if I get it. Those all seemed right to me.

First, you can't scan people's HP, it's not Final Fantasy. There is some meta there, but that's a meta response to a meta question.

Second, I suppose it's debatable whether her certainty was lost in the first place, but I doubt he's wrong about what he thinks.

Third, I don't really feel like checking back, but I think she ran after she stunning-kicked Roy.

There's nothing using meta-knowledge in any of those, and while they can be argued with, you can't just declare them "wrong" and expect me to believe you.



its fairly simple. enough. in OoTs the characters actually take more and more visible damage (cuts, bruises, bleeding, breathing hard, posture adjustmants, ect. ect) as the fight progresses. the giant has said before while Oots follows basic DnD rules its still its own universe. a point i might add repeatdly ignored alot in these arguments. one thing i have noticed is that often times in fights characters KNOW things about there opponent that wouldnt make the grade in a standard fight, such as sabine's fight with roy when waited out her buff duration and immediatly called her on it when they dropped.

im not entirely sure what you meant by your second remarks.

third, yes she did, however tower was implying had she not used the chance to run for it, had she stayed and fought she would have easily taken roy down, which at best is an exageration and at worst is so off as to be laughable considering her performance thus far in the fight

[yoshi927]

No, but as I said earlier, you can make a judgement call as to how beaten-up a person you are fighting is, and then switch tactics as appropiate. I (and people I've been gaming with) have been doing this for well over 25 years without a single problem. :smallsmile:

Besides, the world of OOTS isn't exactly short on meta-behavior. So I'm not quite sure why "Seeing Miko's HPs would be Meta" is an argument here. :smalltongue:You have a point, but there's no way to scan people's HP. And, even if you say that he could judge how beaten-up she is, you can't account for the possibility of critical hits. And, on top of all this, there's no way to prove that he would switch because the fight never got that far. Hinjo was the one who damaged her enough for Roy to come in, and it was only after Hinjo told Roy to take it easy that the switch to non-lethal came.

[theinsulabot]

Uh, no. You are one hundred percent wrong, and I wouldn't have responded to this but I really couldn't tell if you are being sarcastic.

Remorse, Pity, Forgiveness, and Redemption are the fundamental cornerstones of exalted behavior. When you enjoy killing beyond what is absolutely necessary to preserve life, you are on the slippery slope that leads to the nine hells. Not even Miko enjoyed the killing she did, although she wasn't particularly bothered by it, she never relished it.

yes...yes i was being sarcastic. and reffering to this comic here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html

she looks positivly delighted at getting her shot at laying belkar out. frankly i cant ever remember a grin on her face that large.

so, yes, your right in how a paidan should behave. that was unadalterated sarcasm based upon something somebody else said. my apologies for the confusion

[....]

I wish Roy had killed Miko.

Then the world would've been saved.

Think the gods might be upset about that?

[yoshi927]

third, yes she did, however tower was implying had she not used the chance to run for it, had she stayed and fought she would have easily taken roy down, which at best is an exageration and at worst is so off as to be laughable considering her performance thus far in the fight
Does it even matter who would have won?

Anyway, I'm out. I always end up arguing, but debating about Miko is approaching the utter uselessness of debating about politics. :smallbiggrin:

[theinsulabot]

Does it even matter who would have won?

Anyway, I'm out. I always end up arguing, but debating about Miko is approaching the utter uselessness of debating about politics. :smallbiggrin:

in a larger sense no, but he made a point that was in error and i called him on it. same with points 1 and 3. that was the whole idea of my post, when someone lies that much or is THAT far off the mark i think they deserve to get called on it so either there less likely to do it in the future, or at least are better about it so they dont let themselves get backed into a corner in which the only way out is to lie till your tongue turns black and base your whole argument off the

"if it was a trial you couldnt PROVE that im wrong, theres still the shadow of a doubt!" style of debating

[Porthos]

Hinjo was the one who damaged her enough for Roy to come in, and it was only after Hinjo told Roy to take it easy that the switch to non-lethal came.

As much as I like Hinjo, I have to disagree. :smallsmile: Hinjo only landed a single hit on Miko in his fight (a slight scratch to the foot). So I hardly think his contribution mattered any.

As for "you can't account for criticals," sure you can. :smallsmile: My rule of thumb, when playing the subdual game, is that whenever I get close to Max Damage Via a Crit, I switch to subdual. Just in case.

Don't forget, Roy had to chunk through around 13-14 d10 Hit Dice and 2 d8 HD, Plus 15-16 * CON HP, before he would knock Miko out. That is a lot of HP. Quite enough for at least a few rounds of "real damage", crits or no crits.

If someone is keeping internal track of the damage dealt, it is pretty easy to stay outside of the "crit window". Especially when you have fought with the person, and thus know what they are capable of taking, a couple of times before.

[Twilight Jack]

So you're saying that one of the hobgoblins in this scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) tried to take Belkar alive?

Oh, you mean the singular crosshatch mark amongst the ocean of slashes? Colour me unconvinced of the relevance.


Xykon was pulling his swarm as evidenced by the mark we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)?

Please note that I said bruises and abrasions. The crosshatch might be lethal damage, or it might be subdual. What it certainly isn't is slashing damage. That a crosshatch appears in place of a slash on Miko's cheek strongly suggests that he didn't hit her with the business edge of that sword.


All it means is that Roy didn't get in a good hit with a weapon that emits "a deadly green energy" that is particularly harmful to the undead. His stance is set for a lunge, not a batter's stance.

Not a good hit? And yet he only has to hit her twice more to bring her down? We're talking a high-level opponent here. He hits her once with the flat of the blade, misses his next round due to her armor, impales her (certainly lethal damage, but we've covered the way that lethal and subdual damage interact), then gets stunned. Hinjo never lays sword on her in the fight that follows, then Roy knocks her senseless with another subdual shot. He hits her only three times and she's floored. And you care to suggest that the first hit was no good? It certainly hit her, and even rolling minimal damage it had at least 12-15 points of punch behind it. When you're talking swords, you're talking slashes at that level. Yet it wasn't. Unless you care to argue that Miko's right cheek has damage reduction, I think we're clear that Miko took subdual damage from that shot.


Very much so. Read what he said again. This is about taking out his frustrations on Miko. Everything else is excuses.

I have read it. This is about putting her on the ground. His specific frustrations merely color his means of going about it. Everything else is just villification.


About as much evidence as Miko had to suspect collusion between Xykon, the Order of the Stick, and Shojo, actually.

Oh, so Miko witnessed a murder in which one of the three entities noted above clearly stated their intentions and motivation? That must be one of the bonus comics in NCftPB. Sorry, I missed that one.


Miko is not crazy, and I'm tired of the misogyny inherent in calling her a bitch. She behaved irresponsibly, as did Roy.

Miko had serious delusions of grandeur and thought that the gods themselves were guiding her every action, interpreting everything she saw as further proof of her mission as she chose to define it. In the common parlance? Crazy. As for calling her a bitch, I got caught up in the language of the comic and forgot myself. My apologies.


Nonsense. Hinjo would have tried to peacefully take any assassin that appeared disoriented, confused, and otherwise disabled after the event -- like Miko was.

Pure conjecture and speculation. It is every bit as reasonable to say that Hinjo's prior associations with Miko, as a paladin, caused him to believe that things could be talked through, and that a different assailant wouldn't have received such benefit of the doubt after cutting down the lord of Azure City. You're stating your preferred reading of the scenario as if it were the only valid one, without presenting any evidence in favor of it opposed to an alternate interpretation.


Of course. Belkar was undeniably evil and apparently walking free after committing murder. This was the opportunity to address one injustice. Unnecessary and illegal certainly, but that's not the issue.

This element of the conversation has gone off-topic. We're discussing Roy's actions in this instance and Miko's opportunity to kill Belkar doesn't enter into it, since it doesn't come about until after the fact.


She had succeeded in stunning him and forced him to drop the sword. She'd get no less than four more swings at him before he'd be able to strike back, two at her full bonus (and she seems to have an easy enough time scoring hits on her iterative attacks as well), and three on the follow-up.

That is not a losing position for her, not when you consider how many times she beat him and four others. Sure, he had only a greatclub then, and she had her paladin powers and Windstriker, but her paladin powers are not relevant to this fight and the difference of a club and horse are not enough to explain her victory over five to two odds.

I don't dispute anything you say, except to note that the next shot that Roy lands knocks her out. Her own monologue suggests that she was badly hurt and felt that she was losing, and she expresses a desire to get out of combat with Roy as quickly as possible. Considering how many slashes she lands against Hinjo without killing him, I posit that four more swings against Roy wouldn't have turned the tide enough to ensure victory. She knew it, so she took the opportunity to run.


Irrelevant. That's just an excuse. She was vulnerable, and he attacked. Having a sword did not give him a right to do so any more than Miko would have been within her rights to execute Shojo if he'd been armed and Hinjo's equal in combat.

No, because she hadn't witnessed Shojo murder anyone. If she had, she'd have been well within her rights to initiate some violence, although probably still not execution if it could be helped.


Roy was not interested in her surrender. He's interested only in kicking her ass, and says as much.

Roy doesn't expect her to surrender, and so doesn't waste any time asking. She's a threat, he acts. Had she thrown down her sword and shouted, "I surrender!" do you think Roy would have kept beating on her? Because that's the real litmus test here.


There's no statute of limitations on declaring when that sort of thing is out of line, and it's always been out of line with Miko. Show me a comparable cheap shot taken at Nale or Xykon.

Here's one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)


I'm to assume that Roy misspoke?

No, you're to assume that he meant what he said, namely that she'd just murdered someone right in front of him and he intended to drop her immediately in consequence, rather than give said murderer time to sort through all the reasons it didn't work out as she'd hoped.


She was as dangerous as anyone holding a weapon and asking for help is. If she was truly a threat, Roy could have accomplished the exact same thing we saw him do by readying an action to attack her if she made an offensive move.

She asked for help? No. Her exact words were, "How could this happen? It all made sense, for the first time in years. The gods showed me his treachery. . . How??" That's not contrition or a plea for help. In fact, it sounds an awful lot like she's still certain that she's acting on orders from the gods. Her confusion hasn't gotten her to the "I made a mistake" phase. It's still in the desperately searching for justification phase. As far as readying an action, you're right. He could have. Thing is, that implies that he would give her the benefit of the doubt after watching her murder her own liege lord, which his prior association with her gave him no reason to do.


He didn't try that, nor did he attempt to talk her down. We're talking serious levels of, "Honey, we're out of milk," here.

Again, we come back to watching him murder his ally, a defenseless old man, based upon the thinnest of justifications. He's hardly leaping to conclusions when he assumes that she needs to be brought down. It isn't, "Honey, we're out of milk," at all. It's more like, "Honey, I've just performed a summary execution of a good guy based upon my own delusions stemming from my own megalomania and hatred of you and your allies." It's a different vibe.


Roy's behaviour toward Miko has never afforded him the right to vindication. If anything, his hostility toward her seems to be just one more demonstration of his insecure masculinity.

See, this is where you've got it backwards. It isn't Roy's behaviour towards Miko that inclines him towards vindication; it's her behaviour towards him. His hostility towards her is a reaction to her having treated him as utterly morally inferior and constantly berated, threatened, lectured, and even, yes, attacked him and his friends as a result of that perceived superiority. At no time has she ever shown the slightest awareness of her own potential moral failings, and yet she never lets up telling them all about theirs, ultimately marking them for death for their willingness to show loyalty to Belkar. And yet, as Roy says, "[he] hasn't bisected any unarmed octogenarians lately." Plank in her own eye, much? So yeah, it's vindicating. And so he enjoys kicking her ass a bit more than he should. But that doesn't invalidate his core reasons for doing so, which is the immediate incapacitation of someone who's just committed capital murder.

[Yogi]

And he would know when that was how?OOC: Well, she's a 16-ish level Paladin who sould have a decent con score, and I've hit her three times with a two handed greatsword including one crit. Hinjo's got off one hit on her so, so it's around time to switch over to non-lethal.

IC: Wow, she looks pretty beat up. Time to switch to non-lethal.

Depends on how much he actually knows about Hit Points an the such. It's also how he knew when to step in when Hinjo was getting pounded.

I said her certainty was taken away. That is not the same as admitting to wrongdoing. It is also not the same as saying that she'd never find new certainty.So, she was certain before, she was certain after, but in the one instant that Roy attacked her, she was not certain. That's utterly nonsensical.

Roy was stunned, his sword at his feet. She'd beaten him fairly quickly the last time they fought, and none of her paladin abilities made a difference when it came to fighting him. (Saving throws against V's spells, sure, but V's not in the throne room.)

Miko ran once she'd gained a clear advantage over Roy, as has already been shown.Clear advantage? Miko was one hit from Hinjo + one Power Attack from Roy away from dropping.

Nope. Is there any reason she shouldn't be satisfied with seeing evil vanquished?Technically, she never Detected Evil on Belkar.

Considering how quickly she went through Roy's hit points the first two times they fought, she ought to have been able to kill him this time. Heaven help him if she's got more than one level in monk.Once again, one Power attack + Sword swipe from minus HP.

Undead. Not destroyed, however, which puts the lie to the claim about Roy killing (destroying if you will) what he intends to cause lethal harm to.First, I said "most" in my previous posts, and it certainly wasn't for lack of trying.

Sure. Congratulations to him for changing his mind after Hinjo intervened and made a point about how far out of line Roy was.So, Roy didn't want to kill her before, didn't want to kill her after, but in the one instant he attacked Miko, he did.

You better have some evidence for your absurd theories, since Occam's Razor frowns on unecessary complication.

Yes, because beating someone puts them in a cooperative mood.So if I was attacked by someone, that means I can freely kill Government officials. Gotcha.

Roy wasn't arresting her. He was beating on her. Hinjo arrested her.Hinjo actually gotten beaten into the ground. If it wasn't for Roy, they would be searching for a third in command.

Nale came prepared for yet another fight, so this point is also moot.No it isn't. Both Nale and Miko were people Roy beleived was good, who suddenly started stabbing. Roy dealt with the two in the same manner.

[....]

Yeah, I'd say Nale is pretty messed up in the head. He harbors an insane amount of resentment to his brother and tried to kill him for no better reason than Miko killed Shojo. (I'd say that Original Elan and Shojo both had about the same level of threat).

{sarc} But Miko is a deep and involved and complicated character and therefor worthy of denfense for her utterly insane and evil actions, while Nale is not. {/sarc}

[Hyrael]

Isn't this whole thread a spoiler? Ah well...

I actually think Roy will be in for a humbling experience when this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) sequence is repeated.

"You attacked an nonthreatening opponent who, though doubtlessly skewed, was acting in the interest of the entire city, rather than attempting to take them into custody."

Roy will abruptly have to realize that, despite how much he hates and reviles Miko, his reaction to her was identical to her reaction to Shojo, emotional and murderous.

((Ironically, Miko might be told the same thing, as that quote applies to her and Shojo as well))

really? Miko had just brutaly killed a defenseless old man. said old man was roy's erstwhile employer and benefactor. Miko has shown in the past that reasoning with her, while not impossible is very difficult and likely to fail. Miko is also very dangerous. Roy probably thought it likely that miko was about to go psychotic and kill everyone else (the shock of loosing paladin powers can do that).

Yes, it might have been better to wait a bit and let things sink in for miko, instead of forcing her right back into combat mode. But, thinking like this requires one to see miko as a emotionaly stunted little girl, wound far to tight by religion, a black and white worldview, and lack of social acceptance. To see her as a person in need of help. Instead, roy saw a crazy lady who goes around randomly killing people. and he did try to take her into custody. In the High power levels of D&D, taking someone into custody usually requires beating them senseless first.

Yes, roy acted selfishly when he attacked miko. This is something he shouldnt have done. But, I hardly doubt that, in the interview, it will ammount to more than a "Well, it really would have been better to do this, but we cant fault you for it overmuch. Now, lets move back to that night with the Slyph"

After all, we dont know how morality works in this setting, at least among the celestial crowd. could be that the LG folk would ascribe to a different, "real world" moral system, where you can kill scores of people in horrificaly painfull ways without spiritual reprocussions, as long as you have sex face-to-face, man on top, without little rubber things. Well, that sound more LN, actually.

[Renx]

One thing I love about this discussion is that everyone is 100% sure that the alignment system supports their cause. The sad thing is, it really does. Alignment is a very, very bad system (especially to have any kind of argument on or based on) and should never be used as anything but vague guidelines on anything.

Alignment, the system, is split in how it handles issues. On one hand you have intent, reasons and character quirks and on the other you have consequences, society and Gods. Take your average drow city, filled with hate, malice and deceit. They might consider themselves to be LG or LN, whereas the rest of the world would most likely tag them as CE. To make the system clearer, there should be two alignments: One personal, depicting beliefs etc and one social, basically how the world sees you.

Miko might have been technically LG, but only the moronic accept her as anything remotely good. She followed her personal beliefs (which range from delusional, prejudiced and incapable of change to homicidal lunacy) and was willing to kill anyone who didn't follow them -- or even agree with her (modern society calls her kind of people 'psychopaths' and/or 'schizophrenics'). Why would she not? They had to be evil to oppose her, anyway. She was, pardon the french, a self-indulgent, self-absorbed, self-righteous bitch whose actions helped the bad guys more than the good. Still, she got what was coming for her (her fall, her death and no atonement), so karma wins. Jubilation!

[SmartAlec]

It's hard to get one's head around, but both intent and action are taken into account when it comes to the Final Judgement. Just the fact that every dead person gets their own angelic case worker should show that the Powers that Be recognise that every case is different, and needs careful evaluation.

[NikkTheTrick]

First, the argument is essentially based on proving that Roy did not intent do kill Miko. This is impossible to prove. However, there is a reason why people are found guilty based on evidence that they committed the crime rather than proof beyond doubt that they did not. Otherwise, we would have to sentence most US citizens over 70 years old for Kennedy assasination.

Second, look closely at comic # 409. When Hinjo fights along already severely wounded Miko, he uses lethal damage against Miko. The only hit he makes lands on her right foot and produces a cut. So, we see a PALADIN landing lethal damage on her. How can we accuse Roy of doing the same without accusing him of being evil?

[Alex Warlorn]

Wonder how Miko feels when she beholds her life through the ultimate lens of truth and realizes just where she stopped following the will of the gods and started following what she WANTED to be the will of the gods.

[Shatteredtower]

I'm not sure this is all going to fit -- might have to break it into three separate posts, but we'll see.


Really? Because I read the same quote as, "You just murdered the best hope of survival for this world that I've met. You're going down!"Sure, that works. I don't view it as much better, and not really much of an excuse for his behaviour either.


I think his enjoyment of said beating is likely to receive some mention, but the beating itself probably gets the thumbs up. Miko needed to be stopped before she did something crazy like destroy the gate. :smallwink:And that might have been avoided if she hadn't been driven further into isolation.


If we're really going to play the "Quote What Hinjo Said" game, then all I have to say is: Game On :smalltongue:

By all means.


Notice the words that Hinjo used. "Battering into submission" and "beating". He did not say "attacking" or "killing" or any other sort of word that implies Lethal Force.In the circumstances, mention of further killing would have been a bad idea. It's already obvious that he's gone for at least two fatal blows.


No, if you read Hinjo's words in the context that they are given then it is obvious that Hinjo thought that Roy was trying to subdue Miko as opposed to killing her. Especially when you look at the language that Hinjo used to describe Miko's attack on Lord Shojo.Hinjo tends to be an optimist, viewing events and people (Belkar) in their best light. There's really no pussyfooting around the fact that Miko killed Shojo, though.


In fact, if Hinjo had really thought that Roy was going to kill Miko, then he would have to have to at least pay lip service* to the idea of arresting Roy for attempted murder/assult with a deadly weapon.You mean the way Miko was arrested for trying to kill Belkar and the Order after the trial? No, it looks like he wasn't under any such obligation. Fair argument, but it doesn't hold.


That flaming sword is actually a form of bane or disruption effect that only works on the undead and seemingly only happens on a critical hit.The smith who reforged the blade said otherwise, as I've referenced earlier. That it is more deadly to the undead does not mean it's not deadly to everyone else.

I'm not sure what triggers it. Critical hits are one possibility, but it also seems to coincide with Roy reaching a certain level of ire. Mechanically, the former is easier to utilize, and not incompatible with the latter, so it does seem the easiest explanation.


Minor fact that when she lost her paladinnic abilities she probably lost her monk abilities for committing a chaotic act note her actions weren't exactly those of a lawful character.Monks don't lose their abilities even if they become nonlawful in alignment.


Belkar stood his ground...And it was a rather foolish thing to do, seeing as he had no plan beyond insulting her.


...Roy's actions was in defence of a comrade...Not at all. Miko wasn't attacking anyone, and Shojo was beyond defending. Roy was on the offensive. He couldn't even call that a counterattack.


...even if Belkar is under the effects of a mark of justice do you honestly think Roy is going to hesitate when the one person who could have helped him achieve his blood quest was slain right in front of him by someone...Apparently not. That doesn't justify his actions -- actions that made a bad situation worse. Roy created the classic triangle of anger, which tends to put a mediator, such as Hinjo, in more danger.


...who has already shown herself as utterly inflexible...Not so:

1. She tried to deal with Samantha's father separately after Samantha had attacked her (and been killed). An inflexible person would simply have killed them both without further discussion.
2. She offered the Order a chance to explain itself when Roy proved immune to her attempt to smite evil.
3. She allowed her attention to be diverted from the effort to determine Belkar's alignment.
4. She abided by a legal document protecting Belkar from further efforts.
5. She agreed to pay for the Order to stay at an inn, though it was quite unnecessary.
6. She didn't try to clap the Order into irons until they mutinied, and even then she allowed Durkon to ride free.


...and more to the point as dangerous as Xykon in her own way...Potentially? Possibly, but there's no indication that she measures up to a guy who'd destroy the world if Tuesday proved particularly boring.


...imagine what would have happened if the Sapphire Guards greatest paladin chose instead to be Shojo's replacement?Redcloak and Xykon slain, Miko either dead or given a conference with Soon, you mean? No, I'm sure it's not, but it's a bit more likely than the Miko World of Terror Tour.


Nale has been called a bastard on more than (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html) one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) occasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)Calling Nale a bastard is insulting to illegitimate children everywhere, not to Nale. The word is being used as a harsh synonym for jerk, after all, and that's an apt description for the guy who just: a) killed the local police chief, b) announced he'd kidnapped your little sister, and c) kidnapped.

Miko's sexual/social standing has nothing to do with her actions, and everything to do with Roy's misogynistic issues.


As for Xykon, I am of the opinion that Roy was far too pissed off to actually swear when he battled him. :smallwink: Fair enough.


PS: Sabine has been the recipent of the B word as well (delivered by both [at least] Roy and Haley, in this case).Again, how is this comparable? Sabine can't be a female dog. Miko is rather wound up around some rather interpersonal issues involving Roy, and he keeps going after those triggers, even when it clearly makes things worse.


tower, do you really believe any of the stuff you're saying, or are you just trolling?If I counter people's arguments, I am participating in the discussion.

If I'm go on the attack against other posters, I'm trolling.


Because everytime someone comes up with a counterpoint that you can't beat, you come up with some incredibly farfetched stretch of the imagination to explain or justify your position.That was the highest percentage of unsupported bias I've read on this forum today.


How much time did you spend combing through the comics to try and find frames with specific pictures of injuries to try and claim that Roy never attacked to subdue?It's all in one strip, so all of fifteen seconds -- most of it waiting for things to load on a twelve-year-old computer.


I'm sorry, but how can you possibly claim that Miko isn't crazy, aside from just saying 'Miko isn't crazy'?I don't recall having written that -- but I'll be glad to say it now. (I do hope that no one is hostile to Miko because they think she's crazy.)

Miko isn't crazy. Her behaviour was terribly irresponsible from the moment she raised her sword against Shojo, but that's not the same thing. It is not crazy to look for signs from the gods when a) the gods are real, and b) they do send signs. (Azure City in flames was a terrible sign, painted in letters of fire, and Miko unfortunately read it wrong.) Desperate, sure, but not crazy.


Sure he would. Depending on how "meta" the game is, it's quite easy to ask the DM if the person I'm attacking looks to be low enough in HP's to start switching to subdual damage.That would be extremely meta indeed, considering the fact that the answer would be, "Sure," for one character in perfect health, and, "No, not yet," for another that had just fallen off the side of a mountain into a pool of acid.


But I think just about any fighter (especially one as intelligent as Roy) would be able to tell if someone is about to go down or not.For an uninjured 3rd level fighter, the answer is, "Right now." For Miko, it's not. How does Roy tell the difference?


cant be bothered to read all of it, because points 1, 2, and 3 were not only completely incorect but the amount of meta game knowledge required to MAKE argumants 1,2 and 3 are in themselves enough that by all rights he has to KNOW there wrong, so at this point he is just trolling, or just to stubborn to admit he is wrong.Prove it.


first off, as a matter of fact, in the OOTS world, battle scarring is clearly evident. you dont think maybe a trained warrior could note and recognise when an enemy is reaching his/her limit?What, you mean, "You just have to do the same amount of damage to her that you'd do to a 2nd level fighter, and she'll drop?" No, that doesn't really wash. Kind of makes spells like status and deathwatch a lot less useful too.


no? really? thats cause your a moron.Please refer to my reply to sammiel in reference to the accusation of trolling.


second, roy without a weapon is not a mage without spells. odds are he has any number of unarmed combat talents (hell, he took on xykon unarmed, last i checked) and roy curtainly has enough hp top last a few rounds while he makes a check to retrieve his sword.He had enough hit points the last two times he fought Miko (with more backup on his side each time too), and she got the best of him then. He wasn't all that impressive with a greatclub and admits it, so it's unlikely that he'd accomplish that much unarmed, his earlier "moderate inconvenience" to Xykon notwithstanding. At least he'd be dealing actual nonlethal damage that way, but it would still have allowed her to make four attacks before he got a single one in.

Which is it, folks? Miko's a coward who runs from a fight the moment she gets an advantage, or she's so far off her nut that she'll do anything to kill off the Order of the Stick?


third. thats rght, killling is FUN all holy defenders of justice should feel exitement and joy in somethings death, not remorse that killing was nessasary, or pity for the fallen. GOGO murdering for the greater good!Paladins are not forbidden from enjoying bloodshed -- so long as the right blood is shed in appropriate fashion. It's not exactly the pinnacle of goodness, but if it was going to cause Miko to fall, she'd have been wearing tan after her tussle with the ogres way back when.


and to your second point, because as far as i could tell he was trying to cover up the fact that his arguments were complete adulterations of game and meta game mechanics because he wanted to be right...Yes, that certainly justifies calling me a moron and a liar without any real evidence to support your views. Reading only half the post and then pronouncing judgment takes the cake. Funny, because it's the sort of thing I'd expect from Miko.


...i didnt care to keep readingAnd yet perfectly entitled to respond with personal attacks?


And Roy actually was around for quite a bit during that Miko fight... The only times that we've actually seen him taken out were the Miko fights, having a large animal land on him, and a very large fall + meteor swarm.Sure. Of course, part of the reason he lasted so long in the other Miko fights was because she had other targets to deal with as well.


Oh, you mean the singular crosshatch mark amongst the ocean of slashes? Colour me unconvinced of the relevance.Hobgoblins attack him with sharp objects, and he somehow winds up with a bruise. Sounds like a bad angle hit to me. It's not about the damage, but about how it compares to the hit points.


Please note that I said bruises and abrasions. The crosshatch might be lethal damage, or it might be subdual. What it certainly isn't is slashing damage. That a crosshatch appears in place of a slash on Miko's cheek strongly suggests that he didn't hit her with the business edge of that sword.Not with that lunging stance.


Not a good hit?Was she cleaved in two? Did she fall bleeding? Then no, it wasn't a good hit. I realize a lot of people assume that hit points are solely a reflection of how hard you can be hit before you fall, but that's not how the rules interpret them.


This is about putting her on the ground.Which he was only doing because he wanted to beat on her, not because he had to.


Oh, so Miko witnessed a murder in which one of the three entities noted above clearly stated their intentions and motivation?We have already established that she leapt to false conclusions, tainted be a well-cultivated personal bias. We've also established that she went too far in killing Shojo.

However, it really does make sense of the ringers through which she's been rung, and is less shattering than thinking, "I've spent my life trying to be the best, and in the end, it just meant getting used as a tool by old men," even though that's really how it turned out.


Miko had serious delusions of grandeur and thought that the gods themselves were guiding her every action, interpreting everything she saw as further proof of her mission as she chose to define it. In the common parlance? Crazy.Okay. I touched on this earlier, but fair enough. Mind you, her search for guidance did turn her from her desired course -- avenging herself upon the Order of the Stick -- so I doubt she was that far gone. Desperate to find a purpose and meaning, sure, and more prone to mistakes after the one she'd lived by since childhood got mangled, but still willing to put to put her wishes second to the will of higher powers.


As for calling her a bitch, I got caught up in the language of the comic and forgot myself. My apologies.Thank you.


Pure conjecture and speculation. It is every bit as reasonable to say that Hinjo's prior associations with Miko, as a paladin, caused him to believe that things could be talked through, and that a different assailant wouldn't have received such benefit of the doubt after cutting down the lord of Azure City. You're stating your preferred reading of the scenario as if it were the only valid one, without presenting any evidence in favor of it opposed to an alternate interpretation.It is consistent with Hinjo's behaviour toward Belkar and other prisoners (including Roy, when Miko hauled the Order in). It's also consistent with the fact that he tried to reason with the ninjas that attempted to assasinate him in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html).

He does try to talk sense into her in strips #404 and #409, but this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) suggests it's an activity he'd rather avoid most times. Maybe she could be talked down, but Hinjo seems like the kind of guy who'll try talking first with anyone, given the opening.


This element of the conversation has gone off-topic.Agreed.


I don't dispute anything you say, except to note that the next shot that Roy lands knocks her out. Her own monologue suggests that she was badly hurt...It is quite possible. Then again, it's also possible that she's still suffering from disorientation. She'd beaten this guy twice when he had support, and without the need for her paladin powers. The +5 greatsword makes a significant difference (an average of 8.5 hp of damage per successful attack, and we know Roy's got at least a +6 bonus over the greatclub on those as well), so you may be right.

I still think that she stunned him for punching her emotional triggers too hard -- and then ran from the rest of his argument. It's consistent with the events that lead to her placing him in chains earlier on.


...and felt that she was losing, and she expresses a desire to get out of combat with Roy as quickly as possible. Considering how many slashes she lands against Hinjo without killing him, I posit that four more swings against Roy wouldn't have turned the tide enough to ensure victory. She knew it, so she took the opportunity to run.Yet she stayed to fight Hinjo, who only needed to get lucky once against her? I don't buy it.


No, because she hadn't witnessed Shojo murder anyone.The point is that his defenseless it not a factor. She'd have been wrong even then.


Roy doesn't expect her to surrender, and so doesn't waste any time asking.Who said anything about asking? By all means, Roy was within his rights to demand her surrender, but that would have cut into his goading time.


Had she thrown down her sword and shouted, "I surrender!" do you think Roy would have kept beating on her? Because that's the real litmus test here.You know, based on what he did to Sabine in their last fight after she surrendered, I'm not so sure he'd have refrained from getting in that one last shot. However, the test as I see is lies in the fact that Roy didn't even try.


Here's one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)I really should have specified one from Roy, shouldn't I? My fault. However, even when it was Roy calling Nale a bastard, it was just a stronger form of calling him a "meanie" or "villain" (though he'd have liked that). It's really not comparable, because it's nowhere near as personal..


No, you're to assume that he meant what he said, namely that she'd just murdered someone right in front of him and he intended to drop her immediately in consequence, rather than give said murderer time to sort through all the reasons it didn't work out as she'd hoped.How would even that have been acceptable behaviour on Roy's part, when no effort had been made at a less explosive resolution?


She asked for help? No. Her exact words were, "How could this happen? It all made sense, for the first time in years. The gods showed me his treachery. . . How??"Yes, those were her exact words. Sounds like a call for help to me. It certainly wasn't rhetorical.


In fact, it sounds an awful lot like she's still certain that she's acting on orders from the gods. Her confusion hasn't gotten her to the "I made a mistake" phase.I agree with you on the second statement, but not the first. She has not taken responsibility for the act yet, but she no longer had confidence in knowing the will of her gods. In the end, it's why she struck out at Hinjo -- because she had followed her prayers to this situation in the first place, and now he was telling her to do it again? Miko reacted to that with violence, but also with fear. She ran from Roy out of fear as well, but in neither case was it fear of violence.


Thing is, that implies that he would give her the benefit of the doubt after watching her murder her own liege lord, which his prior association with her gave him no reason to do.And it would have cost him nothing. Meanwhile, look what giving him and his party the benefit of the doubt cost her. Certainly, her fall was her own doing, her own responsibility, in the end, but it does not absolve Roy of the fact that he had a better option than violently losing his temper.


Again, we come back to watching him murder his ally, a defenseless old man, based upon the thinnest of justifications. He's hardly leaping to conclusions when he assumes that she needs to be brought down. It isn't, "Honey, we're out of milk," at all. It's more like, "Honey, I've just performed a summary execution of a good guy based upon my own delusions stemming from my own megalomania and hatred of you and your allies." It's a different vibe.Unnecessary violence is unnecessary violence. Fallen or not, the city could have used Miko. We'll never know if they'd have gotten the chance, because Roy never tried. Megalomaniacal or not (I don't see it), she'd have put defense of the city first. From the time she was knocked unconscious until the time she woke up, she never once had a chance to talk to anyone that might have tried reasoning with her -- not until she died. We'll never know if she'd have gone for it. To be fair to Roy, he had no way of knowing things would turn out as they did either. Even so, he sacrificed the possibility (however slight) of an ally against Xykon for the certainty of getting to beat on Miko.


See, this is where you've got it backwards.That would only be true if it was a one way street. It never has been.


It isn't Roy's behaviour towards Miko that inclines him towards vindication; it's her behaviour towards him. His hostility towards her is a reaction to her having treated him as utterly morally inferior and constantly berated, threatened, lectured, and even, yes, attacked him and his friends as a result of that perceived superiority.The halfling was hiding his alignment. The fighter was constantly inundating her with crude come-ons, followed eventually by his own brand of holier-than-thou. The wizard declared great joy in her passing and the rogue kept pushing her luck by making demands. The ranger was granted free reign by his teammates to bring about her fall.

Yet she got them all back to Azure City alive. It really does run both ways.


At no time has she ever shown the slightest awareness of her own potential moral failings...True, she is judgmental, hard headed, and harder of hearing when it comes to the advice of others. Then again, she's been lied to by a group that were afforded the benefit of the doubt over an unlikely "evil double" story (as well as by Shojo), and Roy wasted the best opportunity to get through to her by humilating her in his own little self-righteous tirade. Sure as Miko made her own bed, so did Roy make his.


And so he enjoys kicking her ass a bit more than he should. But that doesn't invalidate his core reasons for doing so, which is the immediate incapacitation of someone who's just committed capital murder.That was his excuse, not his core reason. While I'll accept that this would be more true of Roy's player than the character himself, the fact remains that she'd bested him in two previous encounters. As evidenced by ever single word he said to her in their last encounter, this was all abuot payback.


Miko might have been technically LG, but only the moronic accept her as anything remotely good.This comment shows no confidence in its argument. Does it impress anyone?


OOC: Well, she's a 16-ish level Paladin who sould have a decent con score, and I've hit her three times with a two handed greatsword including one crit. Hinjo's got off one hit on her so, so it's around time to switch over to non-lethal.

IC: Wow, she looks pretty beat up. Time to switch to non-lethal.Yeah, I don't buy it.


So, she was certain before, she was certain after, but in the one instant that Roy attacked her, she was not certain. That's utterly nonsensical.Gosh, and it would be so easy if that was actually my argument. Here, let me make it easier for you:

She was certain before she fell. She was uncertain after she fell. She was made certain that Roy was her enemy after he attacked her. She reacted badly to the suggestion that she prayed to the gods for guidance, so she wasn't certain that would work yet either.


Clear advantage? Miko was one hit from Hinjo + one Power Attack from Roy away from dropping.Clear advantage. Miko had already demonstrated how easily she could hit Roy every time with a full attack routine -- and she'd be getting an attack of opportunity in as well. Roy would then have one chance only to take her down before she unleashed another full attack routine, assuming she didn't have more than one level of monk, allowing her to attempt another stunning blow in the next round at the beginning of a flurry of blows at a time Roy is without his Dex bonus to AC. Even without the extra monk level, Roy was still facing a world of pain.

Again, it's not violence that Miko fears.


Technically, she never Detected Evil on Belkar.Actually, she did -- just before he nailed her over the head with his lead sheet.


Once again, one Power attack + Sword swipe from minus HP.Once again, a luxury Roy had because Miko had stopped attacking him.


First, I said "most" in my previous posts, and it certainly wasn't for lack of trying.Duly noted. The original was still a meaningless claim, however.


So, Roy didn't want to kill her before, didn't want to kill her after, but in the one instant he attacked Miko, he did.Was there a deal on straw men or what? That does not match anything I wrote.

Until Roy was stunned and Hinjo took charge of the situation, Roy was obviously attacking with lethal force. After his little time-out, he'd cooled down enough to switch to nonlethal attacks. Considering the fact that he'd run her through earlier, that is the simplest interpretation of what we saw. Roy changed tactics, out of consideration for Hinjo's stated wishes.


So if I was attacked by someone, that means I can freely kill Government officials. Gotcha.Another straw man. They must have been selling them by the truckload.


Hinjo actually gotten beaten into the ground. If it wasn't for Roy, they would be searching for a third in command.If it wasn't for Roy, Miko wouldn't have been beating on Hinjo in the first place. Watching Roy clean up the mess he made doesn't impress me.


No it isn't. Both Nale and Miko were people Roy beleived was good, who suddenly started stabbing. Roy dealt with the two in the same manner.Not in the least. Roy met an attacking force that had just betrayed him with force in Nale's case. He struck Miko from behind while she was offering no threat to anyone. There is a mountain range of difference between the two reactions.

[theinsulabot]

Prove it.

i did


hat, you mean, "You just have to do the same amount of damage to her that you'd do to a 2nd level fighter, and she'll drop?" No, that doesn't really wash. Kind of makes spells like status and deathwatch a lot less useful too.

what? you appear to of missed the idea completely. reread it and try again



please refer to my reply to sammiel in reference to the accusation of trolling.

hi kettle, meet pot. he is black


He had enough hit points the last two times he fought Miko (with more backup on his side each time too), and she got the best of him then. He wasn't all that impressive with a greatclub and admits it, so it's unlikely that he'd accomplish that much unarmed, his earlier "moderate inconvenience" to Xykon notwithstanding. At least he'd be dealing actual nonlethal damage that way, but it would still have allowed her to make four attacks before he got a single one in.

Which is it, folks? Miko's a coward who runs from a fight the moment she gets an advantage, or she's so far off her nut that she'll do anything to kill off the Order of the Stick?

she was a palidan then. now she is a fighter without bonus feats, also, roy was now armed with the sword, and will regain it within a round and roy has the hp took take that round's damage. she was about to lose the fight, and ran. remember, no longer a palidan miko's fear immunity has likely been removed as well


Paladins are not forbidden from enjoying bloodshed -- so long as the right blood is shed in appropriate fashion. It's not exactly the pinnacle of goodness, but if it was going to cause Miko to fall, she'd have been wearing tan after her tussle with the ogres way back when.

ayup, so she has acted ignobly before. were you going anywhere with that?


Yes, that certainly justifies calling me a moron and a liar without any real evidence to support your views. Reading only half the post and then pronouncing judgment takes the cake. Funny, because it's the sort of thing I'd expect from Miko.

ignoring proof to the contrary does not make said proof go away. and while were on the subject of miko comparison's, blindly holding to your own ideas despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary is quite mikoish


And yet perfectly entitled to respond with personal attacks?

hey, if the shoe fits....

[thereaper]

Ok, this is ridiculous.

3 cops vs a suspect. Suspect shoots a cop. Now, what do the other cops do?

A) Try to reason with the suspect
B) Do nothing and wait to see if the suspect shoots someone else
C) Run away
D) Shoot them

If you answered anything except D, you need a serious reality check. If a person is willing to kill one cop, there is no reason to assume that they will not kill more as well (unless you know the perpetrator VERY well, which Hinjo thinks he does; explaining why he attempts to reason with Miko to no avail). Which is more important: Neutralizing the person who has clearly demonstrated themselves to be a threat or giving them the benefit of the doubt (and very likely putting yourself and others in danger)? Obviously, the former. Miko killed Shojo, her leader! There was absolutely NO reason to assume that she wouldn't attempt to kill the others and a million reasons to assume she would. The fact that there was a slight possibility that she might not doesn't change that.

You can never be 100% sure about what someone is going to do. Or about anything, for that matter. For example, did you know that it is actually possible for a person to walk through a wall? On a quantum mechanical scale, that kind of thing happens all the time, actually. Particles go right through other particles that they should not be able to thanks to the wonders of a phenomenon known as quantum tunneling. Now, the odds of this happening are ridiculously small, but there's so many particles in the universe that it ends up happening all the time. And it's not necessarily limited to sub-atomic scales either. If every particle of your body went through every particle of a wall, you'd be able to walk through it. Unfortunately, the odds of all the countless subatomic particles in your body simultaneously quantum tunneling through every particle of the wall is 1 in a number greater than the age of the universe. The odds of it are so low that for all intents and purposes it might as well be zero. Therefore, we tend to think of it as impossible.

Now, how does this apply to the discussion? Simply put, you don't have to be 100% sure how someone is going to act in order to justify an action to stop them. In fact, it's impossible. So unless one thinks that it's all right to sit back and watch a guy mow down an endless amount of people with a machine gun because he just might decide to stop before the next one, then they must admit that justification for a pre-emptive strike on a would-be murderer does not require absolute certainty that they are in fact a would-be murderer. Do you have to be pretty sure? Yes. Killing someone for such-and-such reason while other people are in the room who the killer claims have done the same thing is generally accepted as reason enough to neutralize the person immediately.

In fact, Roy would have been entirely in his rights to have killed Miko. Even an unconscious Miko is still a threat (though much less of one). Remember, fudging the rules for dramatic effect is not unheard of in this strip (or in DnD period). When you tie up a criminal, you don't just assume they are no longer a threat and leave them unguarded. The fact that they can't hurt you right now does not mean they will stay that way. Therefore, you must somehow ensure that they stay that way. By and large, the most effective way of doing this is through death. Of course, it's not the preferred method, but there are some instances when the risk associated with a non-lethal method of incapitation is simply not worth it. Whether this was one of those times or not is irrelevant, because Roy didn't kill Miko. He knocked her out. The fact that she was trying to escape is irrelevant. She had proven herself dangerous enough to warrant lethal force, if only to prevent the killing of anyone who attempted to prevent her escape. It doesn't matter how large a role anger and revenge played in Roy's decision to stop her. The fact was that she needed to be stopped, or else face the very likely risk that Miko would kill someone else. But he still chose to only knock her out.

Let's use another example. If you're in a war and you see some enemy soldiers that you believe you can take on (and don't have any prior mission to consider), you don't wait. You shoot. Why? You can't be absolutely sure that they're going to kill you or any of your allies. But you can be sure enough of it that a pre-emptive strike can be justified. Miko had basically declared war on the OOTS. She accused them and Shojo of conspiring against the Sapphire Guard and all that stuff, and then summarily executed Shojo for it. So, if she kills Shojo for crime A, and the OOTS is also guilty of crime A and there, we can be reasonably certain that she would try to kill them. Once she has proven herself willing to kill, it becomes too risky to try reason with her. Trying to do so requires one to be either stupid (as Hinjo was in this case) or suicidal. Neither of these traits are requirements (or even encouraged) for being Good.

The OOTS has attacked tons of creatures without giving them the chance to surrender first. Yet no one is complaining about that. Why? Because there is reasonable certainty that said creatures would attack the OOTS if given the chance. So why give the enemy the chance to kill you if you know they're the enemy? No one in their right mind would do that, in real life or OOTS.

[Porthos]

Shatteredtower, I won't get into the Hinjo Said Game Quotes at the mo, because they're not really germane to my overall point. :smallsmile:

All I was saying is that Hinjo (by his own words) didn't think Roy was trying to kill Miko.

You disagee on this point. To which I say: Fair Enuf.

But I don't see where we can go on this part of the debate, so I'll just say that we are at an impass on that point and move on. :smallsmile:


Nale has been called a bastard on more than one occasion



Calling Nale a bastard is insulting to illegitimate children everywhere, not to Nale. The word is being used as a harsh synonym for jerk, after all, and that's an apt description for the guy who just: a) killed the local police chief, b) announced he'd kidnapped your little sister, and c) kidnapped.

Miko's sexual/social standing has nothing to do with her actions, and everything to do with Roy's misogynistic issues.


Again, how is this comparable? Sabine can't be a female dog. Miko is rather wound up around some rather interpersonal issues involving Roy, and he keeps going after those triggers, even when it clearly makes things worse.

You said Roy was being a mysoginist for calling Miko a bitch. You then said "find me a comparable insult he delivered to Nale."

I did. :smallsmile:

Bitch and Bastard are pretty much regarded as the same at the insult level. Do they have different connotations? Sure. But the anger and "wanting to insult you 'X' amount" is more or less the same.

Furthermore, Haley has called Sabine a bitch on more than one occasion. If it's perfectly fine for Haley to call out Sabine, then it is also perfectly fine for Roy to call out Miko.

Especially since he didn't mean anything sexually about it.

If Miko gets her feelings hurt more about it than Nale does.... Well, sorry, but I don't feel that much sympathy toward her on the subject (and before you make accusations, I actually like Miko as a character). An insult is intended hurt the other persons feelings, after all. It just proves that Nale really doesn't care about some of the insults said about him. Course if you attack his ego (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html), that's a whole nudder story. :smallwink: Nale's recations to some insults and Miko's reactions to some insults just prove that different people react differently to different insults.

But I wouldn't make too much of an issue of Roy saying the word "bitch". Why? Because, let's face it, the OotS are a bunch of potty-mouths (even Durkon has been known to give an odd dwarven swear phrase from time to time). :smalltongue:


Sure he would. Depending on how "meta" the game is, it's quite easy to ask the DM if the person I'm attacking looks to be low enough in HP's to start switching to subdual damage.


That would be extremely meta indeed, considering the fact that the answer would be, "Sure," for one character in perfect health, and, "No, not yet," for another that had just fallen off the side of a mountain into a pool of acid.

For an uninjured 3rd level fighter, the answer is, "Right now." For Miko, it's not. How does Roy tell the difference?

I don't feel it is meta in the slightest.

I mean, people don't go from "looking perfectly fine" to "death warmed over" when their HPs go from 1 to 0. There is some sort of gradual change in appearance. Be it injuires, stooped shoulders, heavy breathing, worried countanace (i.e. you feel your "luck" leaving you), what-have-you. And a trained fighter should be able to spot when he has the upper hand in a fight.

I gave all sorts of game-mechanical ways of being able to sort that out. You could ask for a Skill based check. Or perhaps a INT check. Or even a Fighter Level Check, with a DC of an appropiate level. Now I'm not suggesting you would know that Miko was down to five HPs. But I am suggesting that the DM could say something like, "Miko Miyazaki is heavily breathing. She has scratches and brusies all over her body. Her swings are becoming more labored and erratic. It looks like she could go down at any moment.

No Meta. No Rules Breaking. Just Good DnD Role-Playing.

And even if it is Meta to be able to tell how close someone is to dropping (and strongly, strongly dispute that), this is the Order of the Stick we're talking about here.

They practically relish being meta. :smallwink:

[SmartAlec]

Paladins are not forbidden from enjoying bloodshed -- so long as the right blood is shed in appropriate fashion.

The whole crux of this is that most people agree Miko's blood was the right blood, right then, and that Roy responded appropriately, whereas you don't.

But he's not a Paladin, he's a Lawful Good Fighter. I say he acted appropriately for a Lawful Good Fighter. There was a murderess and a regicide in the room, Roy's no diplomat or counsellor. He had no official rank or authority to be able to arrest Miko, but he had agreed to help the man she killed, and he was the only man in the room capable of taking action. Take her down, as quickly as possible, before she can hurt anyone else, and if you need her alive later there's always Raise Dead.

As for his intentions, he's furious and vengeful. But under those circumstances, I can't see how any Lawful Good Fighter could NOT be furious and vengeful. I don't think he's enjoying the combat; I think he's too wrapped up in what's just happened to be joyful in fighting Miko. Note that Roy doesn't smile while delivering his put-downs, which is unusual for him. The only time he does smile is when Miko responds with her little self-justification, and I feel that could either be when he feels justified - as she reveals she hasn't changed a bit - or when he realises that he has the measure of her now and can actually win.

But as soon as he goes back to the angry put-downs, he becomes angry again. I think the only other times we've seen Roy like this are when he's fighting Xykon. I say that diatribe against Miko isn't cruelty, or mockery; it's righteous anger, man. It's denouncement.

So, coming back to the discussion, I don't think the Celestials will have any problems when it comes to examining his actions against Miko. Did he cause her to fall? No. Does the Twelve Gods stripping her of her powers mean she should not suffer the earthly consequences of her crime? No. All else is pretty irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things.

[Shatteredtower]

i didNope.


what? you appear to of missed the idea completely. reread it and try againWon't do any good, because it still says the same thing. Rephrase, please.


hi kettle, meet pot. he is blackWho called whom a moron and a liar, and what does that have to do with the subject?


she was a palidan then. now she is a fighter without bonus feats...Which had no bearing on her ability to beat Roy in the last two fights. Roy is not evil and he's not capable of forcing Miko to make a saving throw. Lay on hands only means he gets one round of free attacks, and we've never seen her use her spells. Windstriker? Nah.


also, roy was now armed with the sword, and will regain it within a round...These rambling sentences make it difficult to follow your point. By this next part:


she and roy has the hp took take that round's damage.--do you mean, "Roy can take whatever she dished out in the four free attacks she'd get before he retrieved his sword," or something else?

If I have read that correctly, how do you know that? How does Miko know that?


...she was about to lose the fight..."Roy was stunned, his sword at his feet," does not equate with, "She was about to lose the fight."


remember, no longer a palidan miko's fear immunity has likely been removed as well.Oh, it's certainly gone, and I've noted that she ran out of fear in my previous post.

I've also noted that it wasn't out of fear of violence.


ayup, so she has acted ignobly before. were you going anywhere with that?Merely showing that the previously quoted rant lacked meaningful substance.


ignoring proof to the contrary does not make said proof go away.No such proof has been provided. Arguments, sure, but no proof.


hey, if the shoe fits....--then it would still be off topic and unacceptable by the forum's rules.

[NikkTheTrick]

Just an observation:

When the scroller at the right of my screen becomes smaller than 1 cm, it is a good indication that people take thread too personally...

[Yogi]

Yeah, I don't buy it."Yeah, I don't buy it" counts as an argument now? Cool! I'll one-up you though and throw in an actual logical argument for free!

Gosh, and it would be so easy if that was actually my argument. Here, let me make it easier for you:

She was certain before she fell. She was uncertain after she fell. She was made certain that Roy was her enemy after he attacked her. She reacted badly to the suggestion that she prayed to the gods for guidance, so she wasn't certain that would work yet either.Yeah, I don't buy it.

Seriously though, where is the evidence that usually accompanies a claim when a logical debater makes an argument?

Clear advantage. Miko had already demonstrated how easily she could hit Roy every time with a full attack routine -- and she'd be getting an attack of opportunity in as well. Roy would then have one chance only to take her down before she unleashed another full attack routine, assuming she didn't have more than one level of monk, allowing her to attempt another stunning blow in the next round at the beginning of a flurry of blows at a time Roy is without his Dex bonus to AC. Even without the extra monk level, Roy was still facing a world of pain.Yeah, I don't buy it. Hinjo is clearly weaker than Roy, yet he ate three full attack actions, one hit, and the unhealed remainder of her first full attack action and lived. Roy had already eaten one, would have eaten another when he was stunned, and still have enough to live one round and power-attack Miko into oblivion.

Actually, she did -- just before he nailed her over the head with his lead sheet.Yeah, I don't buy it. Belkar still had the sheet up.

Once again, a luxury Roy had because Miko had stopped attacking him.Yeah, I don't buy it. While Miko was flanked, that's only a two AC difference, which means two less power attack damage.

Was there a deal on straw men or what? That does not match anything I wrote.

Until Roy was stunned and Hinjo took charge of the situation, Roy was obviously attacking with lethal force. After his little time-out, he'd cooled down enough to switch to nonlethal attacks. Considering the fact that he'd run her through earlier, that is the simplest interpretation of what we saw. Roy changed tactics, out of consideration for Hinjo's stated wishes.Yeah, I don't buy it. There's no evidence at all that this is true. Why would Roy not use Lethal force when Hinjo himself was willing to do so.

If it wasn't for Roy, Miko wouldn't have been beating on Hinjo in the first place. Watching Roy clean up the mess he made doesn't impress me.Yeah, I don't buy it. You're attributing behavior to Miko that she does NOT exhibit on anything resembling a consistent, or even occasional, basis.

Not in the least. Roy met an attacking force that had just betrayed him with force in Nale's case. He struck Miko from behind while she was offering no threat to anyone. There is a mountain range of difference between the two reactions.Yeah, I don't buy it. What definition of "offering no threat to anyone" includes someone who had just committed murder.

[Kai Maera]

Tower... let it go.
You are completely misdirecting your issue - that you cannot accept that Miko was in the wrong - and you're blaming Roy, a good man whose friend had just been killed, for doing his best to remove a harmful person - a murderer who, while having no more ties to the gods she was sworn to follow, still had an unshakable belief in her infallibility - from the picture. Whether it was caused by wrath or not is not the questions at all. It was not chaotic or evil, as others with more powerful oaths attacked her as well. Turns out avenging your compatriots is only wrong if Jesus is your judge.

Roy seems an upright fellow, tied to his humanity. He will fit into the Lawful Good realm because he has not gone out of his way to do anything for the sake of chaos or evil. Like releasing a cage full of imps in a crowded town.

[Shatteredtower]

If you answered anything except D, you need a serious reality check.Apparently, so do a lot of cops, because D is not always the acceptable answer.

It's also irrelevant to this particular case. If Miko had been going to endanger anyone else, she'd have done it by then. Roy had no need to swing at her, but he sure didn't waste time creating one.


Which is more important: Neutralizing the person who has clearly demonstrated themselves to be a threat or giving them the benefit of the doubt (and very likely putting yourself and others in danger)?Irrelevant. Miko is not displaying any sort of threat at the time Roy attacks her.


Miko killed Shojo, her leader!Appeal to emotion. Irrelevant.


There was absolutely NO reason to assume that she wouldn't attempt to kill the others and a million reasons to assume she would.False. The fact is that she was not making threatening gestures, let alone physical attacks, up until Roy swung at her. Her lack of action was reason enough to suspect she could have been taken peacefully.


The fact that there was a slight possibility that she might not doesn't change that.Yes, it does. Ask anyone who's had to go in front of an inquiry board.


You can never be 100% sure about what someone is going to do.So... what you're saying is that Miko would have been perfectly justified in killing everyone in the room? I mean, the justification fits...


Now, how does this apply to the discussion? Simply put, you don't have to be 100% sure how someone is going to act in order to justify an action to stop them.It's called reasonable use of force, which Roy exceeded. Now if he'd actually done anything in the round Miko attacked Shojo, it might have been a different story -- maybe even one in which Shojo was still alive.


In fact, Roy would have been entirely in his rights to have killed Miko.And by extension, Belkar, Elan, Varsuuvius, Haley, anyone that might get rather upset about his killing spree, and anyone that might have noticed him killing everyone. I mean, you never know, right?


Let's use another example. If you're in a war and you see some enemy soldiers that you believe you can take on (and don't have any prior mission to consider), you don't wait. You shoot.Good grief. Unless you have orders to that effect (and sometimes even when you do), the worst thing you could do was shoot. It announces your position to the enemy without first alerting your allies where the enemy is located. In a number of cases, such reckless behaviour has even lead to allied casualties, because no effort was made to verify their location first.

In any case, it's also an irrelevant comparison.


Once she has proven herself willing to kill, it becomes too risky to try reason with her.So Roy should be shot on sight? That is the argument, after all.


The OOTS has attacked tons of creatures without giving them the chance to surrender first. Yet no one is complaining about that.Criticism of their brutal behaviour toward goblins has come up in forum discussion before. Yes, Belkar's response to an attempted surrender ("Run! Run, my little bundle of xp!") was amusing, but it was quite clearly meant to be a joke. Roy's beating of Miko, no matter how much some people enjoyed it, clearly was not. Belkar's response after she was down is another matter entirely.


So why give the enemy the chance to kill you if you know they're the enemy?Because at some point, endless bloodshed becomes unproductive.


No one in their right mind would do that, in real life or OOTS.I'm forbidden from discussing politics on these boards, but it's sufficient to say that political reality has long argued otherwise.

That does apply within OotS as well. Politically, it would have been better all around if Miko had been detained quietly, rather than beaten down. Shojo's death and her arrest would have been demoralizing enough by themselves, but throwing in the sensationalism of having their former greatest beat down by an outsider is salting the wounds. Worse, it means there is absolutely no chance (rather than a slim one) of calling upon Miko to aid the city in any fashion -- and look at the results of leaving her out of the loop. :smallwink:

[Shatteredtower]

You are completely misdirecting your issue - that you cannot accept that Miko was in the wrongWhy do people defending Roy insist that anyone pointing out his failings when they came to Miko is denying that she'd done wrong? There's simply no truth to it.


and you're blaming Roy, a good man whose friend had just been killed, for doing his best to remove a harmful personFirst, Shojo and Roy were not friends. Second, that wasn't even close to Roy's best. That was the second wrong -- you know, the one that doesn't make a right either?


...a murderer who, while having no more ties to the gods she was sworn to follow, still had an unshakable belief in her infallibility...Miko was clearly shaken by the results of her act. Had Hinjo not brought up the gods (a very easy mistake to make), he had a good chance of fixing the damage Roy had caused. The damage Miko caused was obviously beyond him, of course, but smashing wine glasses never brought the plates back. Her rejection of the offer was a fearful reaction, not a confident one.


Whether it was caused by wrath or not is not the questions at all.Of course it is. Did Roy intend to protect anyone or was that merely a pretext for a rematch that could very well have been avoided?

He didn't give a damn about consequences, so long as he got to smack Miko around first. Under the circumstances, that doesn't make him a bad guy, but it's a clear black mark on his record. I doubt he'll have much trouble getting in, but if there's a chance to fix the mess to which he'd contributed, it's only fitting that he be expected to make the effort to clean it up first.

[Querzis]

Well at this point I'm pretty sure Tower is either a troll, Miko in disguise or just enjoy pissing us off (though I guess that count as a troll too anyway).

So I suggest to just ignore him. I dunno if he really believe that crap he call logic but he obviously wont start being logical any time soon.

Anyway, back to the topic. Personnaly, the only things Roy should regret was killing those sleeping goblins. Of course, he got the excuse that at this time, OOTS was still a joke comic with little plot but it still seem awfully out of character from him, sounds more like something Miko or Belkar would do. Its not like those goblins were really still a threat and even if they would come back, he just had to ask V to do another speech to make them sleep. If i read the comic again, its definitly the only time Roy disapointed me, Coup de grace sleeping enemy is beneath him.

[Shatteredtower]

"Yeah, I don't buy it" counts as an argument now?What argument? You offered your interpretation, I noted disagreement, and that's that.

You argue that Roy and his player were planning to not kill her from the very beginning. I've already noted why I don't think that's true. I think I've repeated that enough, thanks.


Hinjo is clearly weaker than Roy, yet he ate three full attack actions, one hit, and the unhealed remainder of her first full attack action and lived.I'm left wondering how she got the better of him the last two times they fought, then, especially since she was outnumbered both of those times. Her paladin powers make no difference against him, and the fight's gone long enough that Roy would have fallen on both of the previous occasions.


Roy had already eaten one, would have eaten another when he was stunned, and still have enough to live one round and power-attack Miko into oblivion.Doubtful, based on their previous encounters.


Belkar still had the sheet up. Hmm. You're right. I read the comment about it not preventing her from finding him, but upon reexamination, I see that she had spotted him before she attempted to detect evil.


While Miko was flanked, that's only a two AC difference, which means two less power attack damage.Eight. You forgot to include the charging bonus and factor in the fact that he's using a two-handed weapon, granting him twice the bonus to damage. Note that this would also mean we don't include the damage Hinjo did.

Of course, the +4 bonus on Roy's attack equals the penalty for striking with non-lethal damage, so maybe he didn't throw in that extra Power Attack damage after all. Then again, if he'd passed up on it there, what cause do you have for assuming he'd have applied it if Miko had continued to press her attack instead of running? As it turned out, his bonus cancelled out his penalty, but if she'd stayed toe to toe with him, he had only the choice of taking the -4 penalty or causing lethal damage.

I've little doubt Roy could hit her with a nonlethal attack in that case, but not with the addition of a Power Attack. There's a chance that she'd have survived a lethal attack with Power Attack behind it, especially since she'd have avoided the damage from Hinjo, but that wouldn't be Roy playing to avoid a kill.


There's no evidence at all that this is true.Sure there is. The marks on Miko show that Roy was not holding back.


Why would Roy not use Lethal force when Hinjo himself was willing to do so.Good question. Hinjo was clearly under attack by an opponent that outclassed him, and couldn't really afford that -4 penalty on the attack roll. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been fighting defensively or something daft like that anyway, though.

Meanwhile, Roy was not under attack, and he had bonuses that cancelled out the nonlethal penalty. Of course, that would be denying himself 8 points of Power Attack damage, but it's not like there was a PC at risk. Besides, what the boss wants and what the boss does are often two different things.


You're attributing behavior to Miko that she does NOT exhibit on anything resembling a consistent, or even occasional, basis.Miko never attacked a paladin before Hinjo. What we saw was the exception, not the rule.


What definition of "offering no threat to anyone" includes someone who had just committed murder.The same one that prevents a murderer from being charged with assault against everyone that witnessed the event.

Porthos, I'll try to get to your points in the morning. Thanks for staying civil. (You too, Kai Maera. Clever name, btw.)

[David Argall]

OK, let’s try a summation.

Roy in the throne room behaved poorly. His behavior may be more understandable, and somewhat more forgivable than Miko’s, but that does not make it right. He attacked, with no other motive than to hurt someone. He did not attack in self defense, nor to arrest a criminal. He simply wanted to hurt Miko.
Roy: “All that matters to me right now ….which means I am kicking your fallen ass right now.”

Any claim of self defense is rejected by Roy’s testimony.

Compare with Hinjo’s behavior…
Hinjo..
Got in the way of Miko’s attack on a guilty Belkar, without hurting Miko,
Tried to talk her into surrender,
Told Roy not to attack,
Continued to try to get her to surrender, even after she attacked him.

Roy …
Attacked.
Period.

Was he merely trying to hurt her? Using nonlethal damage? Fat chance. Roy fights to kill. He accepts surrender, etc, but we just don’t have on record when he has accepted a battle field disadvantage in order to make it safer for his foe.
It would also be quite easy to put in a line about how he is not going to kill her, that she is going to jail and stand trial so all may know of her failings. Instead we merely have personal abuse, showing Roy’s hatred of Miko, not his interest in avoiding her death.
The # on the cheek could not be a cut? The artist is just not that consistent.
While this may be taken as a general case, it can’t be used as a law. There are a number of exceptions. Among them…
167. Senior Bandit gets hit by a club, and gets a cut.
201. Roy gets a bruise
362-3. Elan is attacked with fists, and ends with cuts
364. V is hit by tree fists, and gets cuts
440. V& the general get hit by fire. V gets a bruise. General gets cuts.

The last blow does not kill her like it should? We are talking plot/drama here. Nonlethal or not, a blow that knocks you across the room, the quite large room, is going to kill you. It was only the sense of drama that allowed that to happen, and only the plot that kept her alive. That means we can not deem this nonlethal damage.
Moreover, why would Roy try nonlethal when Hinjo was in bad shape. That would mean an avoidable 20% chance the wrong person dies. Earlier, one might have risked it, but at that point, Miko just has to take her chances.

Was Miko about to attack others?
What’s the evidence of that? That she did attack others? But she also almost surrendered, a situation that rather clearly was made less likely by Roy’s treatment of her. We start with a Miko in a state of complete confusion. People can stay in such a state for very long periods, easily long enough for Hinjo to summons enough guards to cart her off to jail. Instead he attacked her, and gave her a direction to go that made “sense”. We can’t be sure of what didn’t happen, but Roy stands accused of making that violence more likely.

In #409, Hinjo said that Roy didn't do anything wrong by attacking Miko?

Hinjo is not in a situation where it helps to give a close look at Roy’s actions [and even so, he has doubts about theattack.] He does not give Roy a pass on that particular subject.

The use of "batter [her] into submission," means Roy was not trying to kill her?

“Batter” is not limited in meaning to anything like nonlethal damage. If you batter a city into submission, you have normally killed a great many of its citizens. “Battery” covers a great many crimes that could have been murder if the attacker had carried out his full intent. And since Roy hadn’t killed her, he wasn’t guilty of murder, yet.

Hinjo did not think Roy was trying to kill Miko? Hinjo was distracted while checking Shojo and more interested in soothing Miko than technical accuracy. And Miko did not charge him with attacking her. Perhaps most important, Roy was not trying to kill Miko at that point in time, which Miko was still out of control. With a good lawyer and a friendly judge, which Hinjo was at that point, Roy’s attack could be excused as assisting an arrest.

How about his behavior with Nale?
Highly different by being in the dungeon where there is nobody to help you. And of course Nale was still active in his crime.

Any cop would have shot Miko for hold the "gun"?

Well, maybe any cop who thought they could cover it up maybe. But the rules of expected police behavior are quite clear. You are there to arrest people, not to shoot them. You do not shoot until it is clear the suspect is about to shoot. Not that he might shoot next week, right now and clearly. You of course get ready to shoot if you must, and you order the suspect to disarm, but there are simply too many innocents carrying weapons to allow cops to decide this one is guilty. The cop shoots in self defense, not because the suspect is armed.

Roy is likely not in serious trouble over the incident, but it is a black mark on his record.

[thereaper]

I don't feel like quoting everything you said, but I think you'll be able to tell which points I am addressing, so it is unnecessary.

When was the last time you saw a suspect gun down someone and then not be responded to with an increased (usually lethal) response from police? Somehow I don't think you've seen many, because otherwise a lot of people would be suing the police stations for endangering them by not neutralizing a dangerous killer and letting them escape.

The military scenario is in lieu of any prior missions (such as keeping one's position hidden for the purpose of completing some kind of objective). The situation is supposed to be just some combat unit that happens to be hiding out when it sees a target of opportunity that it is fairly certain it can take out.

Miko killed Shojo. Therefore, she is a threat.

Not making threatening gestures does not make one any less of a threat. Sure, Miko wasn't looking for a target at the moment, but she clearly was going to. She executed him because she believed that he was conspiring against the Sapphire Guard, and said as much. And in the same breath, she accused the OOTS of the same thing. Why would she not kill them, when she had just killed her master for the very same thing? You keep skirting around this issue.

And you also seem unable to wrap your head around the idea that attacking someone who is not expecting it is somehow evil. If they are about to attack you, then the right thing to do (in fact, the best thing you can do) is stop them before they can hurt anyone. Stopping people from coming to harm is one of the pillars of Good. Giving someone who had just killed a man and was very likely to do it again the chance to continue killing is not Good.

You keep saying that there is no evidence that Miko was going to attack them. But the fact that she killed Shojo is clear and undeniable proof that she was willing to kill without legal authority. What you called an "emotional appeal" is not in fact that but an illustration of how obvious it was that Miko would go for them next. If the people she doesn't like commits crime A, and the guy she has respected and taken orders from her whole life commits the same crime and she executes him for it, then why on Earth would she not kill the people that she actually dislikes who did the same thing? In short, if she killed Shojo, she would definitely try to kill them. There's no escaping this simple fact.

Now, I'd like to ask that you provide some evidence as to Miko NOT being about to kill them. She has her sword in her hand. She has plenty of time to surrender, and later when Hinjo calmly tries to reason with her, she attacks him when he is clearly not expecting it. This also does not take into account what Roy knows about Miko's personality: she is an unstable person who will use any rationalization to justify her actions and refuses to admit that she is wrong. The murder of Shojo is nothing more than a confirmation of everything Roy knew about her. An exclamation point on it all. And Roy is not about to let it keep spiralling madly out of control. Unfortunately, anyone who watched her jump to such a far-fetched conclusion like she did would know that reasoning fails to work on her. Therefore, force is the only remaining option.

And finally, I would like to point out that calling something irrelevant doesn't make it so. Please provide some actual reasoning, rather than simply calling things irrelevant.

[Yogi]

What argument? You offered your interpretation, I noted disagreement, and that's that.

You argue that Roy and his player were planning to not kill her from the very beginning. I've already noted why I don't think that's true. I think I've repeated that enough, thanks.Yeah, I don't buy it. You said that Roy COULD NOT tell how many HP Miko has left. I told you how he COULD.

I'm left wondering how she got the better of him the last two times they fought, then, especially since she was outnumbered both of those times. Her paladin powers make no difference against him, and the fight's gone long enough that Roy would have fallen on both of the previous occasions.Yeah, I don't buy it. The weather, Roy only having a club, and Windstriker were all factors.

Eight. You forgot to include the charging bonus and factor in the fact that he's using a two-handed weapon, granting him twice the bonus to damage. Note that this would also mean we don't include the damage Hinjo did.

Of course, the +4 bonus on Roy's attack equals the penalty for striking with non-lethal damage, so maybe he didn't throw in that extra Power Attack damage after all. Then again, if he'd passed up on it there, what cause do you have for assuming he'd have applied it if Miko had continued to press her attack instead of running? As it turned out, his bonus cancelled out his penalty, but if she'd stayed toe to toe with him, he had only the choice of taking the -4 penalty or causing lethal damage.

I've little doubt Roy could hit her with a nonlethal attack in that case, but not with the addition of a Power Attack. There's a chance that she'd have survived a lethal attack with Power Attack behind it, especially since she'd have avoided the damage from Hinjo, but that wouldn't be Roy playing to avoid a kill.Yeah, I don't buy it. No speed lines = no charge. Besides, it hardly matters what type of attack it was, so much as the fact that Miko was two hits away from nap-time or stabalization checks.

Sure there is. The marks on Miko show that Roy was not holding back.Don't play stupid. Your assertion was that Roy only changed his mind after Hinjo stopped him. However, Hinjo was quite happy with attacking with Lethal damage, so it makes no sense that Hinjo attacking with Lethal damage would inspare Roy to attack with non-Lethal.

Good question. Hinjo was clearly under attack by an opponent that outclassed him, and couldn't really afford that -4 penalty on the attack roll. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been fighting defensively or something daft like that anyway, though.So . . .
Miko outclasses Hinjo, so it's OK for him to go Lethal Damage. According to you Miko outclasses Roy as well, so it's OK for Roy to . . .

Miko never attacked a paladin before Hinjo. What we saw was the exception, not the rule.Yeah, I don't buy it. Miko has a long history of "They were evil, so I killed them." she now thinks Roy and Belkar are evil, can't tell if they are via Detect Evil or Common Sense, and has a nasty habit of not admitting she's wrong. What resulted was inevitable.

The same one that prevents a murderer from being charged with assault against everyone that witnessed the event.Not for lack of trying.

[Porthos]

Since the comic has been updated, let's try to get this back on track, shall we? :smallsmile:

We already suspected that Roy's abandonment of Elan in the forest would be a huge black mark, and it was. But the fact that he regretted and atoned for his actions, seems to have offset that mark.

And someone in this thread wondered about the Belt of Femininity/Masculinity escapade. Looks like that was counted as a positive mark. Told ya it was all about the Self Sacrifice. :smallwink:

Unfortunately for Roy, the one thing that I think most of us were really worried about is about to hit the fan. Namely one Belkar Bitterleaf.

Looks like we might be in for a bumpy ride, fellas! :smalltongue:

[Yogi]

Roy: "All that matters to me right now ….which means I am kicking your fallen ass right now."

Any claim of self defense is rejected by Roy’s testimony.Yes, let's listen to Roy's testemony, but ALL of it this time.

Roy: "All that matters to me right now is that I'm really really angry. Which means I'm kicking your fallen paladin ass right now."

Well gee, it looks like you were right after all. That's why Roy attacked, he even said so himself. It's not like he actually said . . .

Roy: "All that matters to me right now is that you just killed the only other person who was actively trying to solve this stupid end-of-the-world thing. Which means I'm kicking your fallen paladin ass right now."

. . . and you deliberately removed the section that contradicted your theory.

Just kidding.

Compare with Hinjo’s behavior…
Hinjo..
Got in the way of Miko’s attack on a guilty Belkar, without hurting Miko,
Tried to talk her into surrender,
Told Roy not to attack,
Continued to try to get her to surrender, even after she attacked him.

Roy …
Attacked.
Period.Hinjo's a Paladin. He's held at a higher standard than just Lawful Good. Roy does not aspire to Paladin-levels of Lawful Good, but he still generally acts in a Lawful Good manner.

Was he merely trying to hurt her? Using nonlethal damage? Fat chance. Roy fights to kill. He accepts surrender, etc, but we just don’t have on record when he has accepted a battle field disadvantage in order to make it safer for his foe.If Roy wanted to kill Miko, he would have Coup de Grace-ed her, like he did with the Goblins.

It would also be quite easy to put in a line about how he is not going to kill her, that she is going to jail and stand trial so all may know of her failings. Instead we merely have personal abuse, showing Roy’s hatred of Miko, not his interest in avoiding her death.Oh Noes, Roy insults his enemies!!! Clearly insulting someone is DEFINITE PROOF of lethal intent.

The last blow does not kill her like it should? We are talking plot/drama here. Nonlethal or not, a blow that knocks you across the room, the quite large room, is going to kill you. It was only the sense of drama that allowed that to happen, and only the plot that kept her alive. That means we can not deem this nonlethal damage.Sure we can. It's non-lethal because she's still alive. Getting impaled through the chest would kill a real world person as well, but since this is D&D, it's just a major inconvinience and a nice chunk of HP. Falling down several stories into a pot of soup is annoying at best. Arrows to the chest don't even slow you down. Compared to the crap a usual adventurer goes through, thrown across the room is hardly lethal.

Moreover, why would Roy try nonlethal when Hinjo was in bad shape. That would mean an avoidable 20% chance the wrong person dies.Huh? It's just a -4 on your attack roll.

Was Miko about to attack others?She already DID attack others.

That she did attack others? But she also almost surrendered, a situation that rather clearly was made less likely by Roy’s treatment of her. We start with a Miko in a state of complete confusion. People can stay in such a state for very long periods, easily long enough for Hinjo to summons enough guards to cart her off to jail. Instead he attacked her, and gave her a direction to go that made “sense”. We can’t be sure of what didn’t happen, but Roy stands accused of making that violence more likely.So, how many lives are you willing to risk to make sure Miko's feelings weren't hurt? As mentioned before, she is unable to tell right from wrong, and not because she just lost Detect Evil. Bottom line: Hinjo's talk it out solution did not work. Roy's batter it into submission solution did.

In #409, Hinjo said that Roy didn't do anything wrong by attacking Miko?

Hinjo is not in a situation where it helps to give a close look at Roy’s actionsWhy?
[and even so, he has doubts about theattack.]Where did he say that?
He does not give Roy a pass on that particular subject.Again, where is this shown?

The use of "batter [her] into submission," means Roy was not trying to kill her?

“Batter” is not limited in meaning to anything like nonlethal damage. If you batter a city into submission, you have normally killed a great many of its citizens. “Battery” covers a great many crimes that could have been murder if the attacker had carried out his full intent. And since Roy hadn’t killed her, he wasn’t guilty of murder, yet.Look up "submission" in the dictionary. It is impossible for a person to submit when dead. Your "city" example is a red herring, and making a city submit also implies not destroying it.

Hinjo did not think Roy was trying to kill Miko? Hinjo was distracted while checking Shojo and more interested in soothing Miko than technical accuracy. And Miko did not charge him with attacking her. Perhaps most important, Roy was not trying to kill Miko at that point in time, which Miko was still out of control. With a good lawyer and a friendly judge, which Hinjo was at that point, Roy’s attack could be excused as assisting an arrest.Or putting down a violent animal. As you mensioned before, at that time Roy (and Hinjo) would have been perfectly justified in killing Miko. However, Roy did NOT.

How about his behavior with Nale?
Highly different by being in the dungeon where there is nobody to help you. And of course Nale was still active in his crime.And Miko's killing spree ended right there, I'm sure. Miko gets MORE delusional, not less.

Any cop would have shot Miko for hold the "gun"?

Well, maybe any cop who thought they could cover it up maybe. But the rules of expected police behavior are quite clear. You are there to arrest people, not to shoot them. You do not shoot until it is clear the suspect is about to shoot. Not that he might shoot next week, right now and clearly. You of course get ready to shoot if you must, and you order the suspect to disarm, but there are simply too many innocents carrying weapons to allow cops to decide this one is guilty. The cop shoots in self defense, not because the suspect is armed.And because the suspect just killed someone six seconds ago, and then picks up a dropped weapon, when the Supreme Leader of the country. Look at the tape of the Regan shooting. The Secret Service did not ask the suspect to drop his gun or surrender. The Secret Service immediately dogpiled the person.

[Moral Wiz]

Yogi, I'm not going to argue with all your points, as there are too many for me to keep track of. However, there are 2 points which I have somthing to say.


She already DID attack others.

Yes, she attacked Shojo. And immedietly fell from grace. Miko had jumped to a conclusion. She was slightly mad. But that does not equate to homicidal. If Roy hadn't attacked, and simply arrested her (with Hinjo's blessing) she might have not started fighting. And she might have still been in the Asur City battle (as opposed to her one and oly action in that battle.

Quite a long list from that. I admit it is just a possibility, but nothing was gained by Roy attacking her. If he held off until she started attacking them, (but was ready to defend himself), things may well have gone diferently.

also


Hinjo's a Paladin. He's held at a higher standard than just Lawful Good. Roy does not aspire to Paladin-levels of Lawful Good, but he still generally acts in a Lawful Good manner.

This made me laugh slightly, as it is why I never play LG. If you do, the dividing line is hard.

The Alignment system is very much down to personal interpretation. But personally, I wouldn't place Roy as LG. I really would put him down as NG, or possibly TN. Seriously, LG means respect for a code, or authority. And I can't remember Roy respecting either. He milked his helping Shojo for all it was worth, he dosn't fight notably honourably. I can't see an example of LG behavior, can someone point one out? (one or two G, but little LG.)

It's a cliche, but I see more similarity to Miko than Hinjo in Roy. But then, I've never really liked the fighter (his death has been the only OotS plot point I predicted). I remain waiting to see him do somthing that suprises me.

[....]

I really hope the thing with Miko is just sort of mentioned in passing in the comic, rendering all of this arguing moot. It'd be really funny.

And I still say Roy should have finished her off and saved the world when he had the chance.

[Renx]

It's really funny, first the Miko fanboys make a huge deal about Roy decking her (we all know they're just annoyed their favourite character got whacked by the "stupid fighter"), but as it turns out Elan and Belkar are the ones that get him into real trouble. :biggrin:

[yoshi927]

I wonder if Yogi buys it? :smallbiggrin:

And, in response to the above, it's just as easy to say;

We all know the Roy fanboys are just trying to clear him from all blame.

Seriously, if you write off our arguments because we like Miko, we can write of yours because you like Roy, right? It's exactly this kind of thing that makes me try to stay away from these debates, but then I get drawn into them. Like right now, for example. :sigh:

[Porthos]

I wonder if Yogi buys it? :smallbiggrin:

And, in response to the above, it's just as easy to say;

We all know the Roy fanboys are just trying to clear him from all blame.

Seriously, if you write off our arguments because we like Miko, we can write of yours because you like Roy, right? It's exactly this kind of thing that makes me try to stay away from these debates, but then I get drawn into them. Like right now, for example. :sigh:

But I like both Miko and Roy. So how do you explain my position? :smalltongue:

[Shatteredtower]

But I like both Miko and Roy. So how do you explain my position? :smalltongue:The same way you explain mine, it would seem. Funny, that.

More in a bit.

[Finwe]

Well, "Celestia's Waiting Room" was a little unweildy, but you're right. :smallsmile:

You could have said 'limbo' with a lower case 'l.' Then you'd be describing the state he was in, rather than the planar realm.

[Querzis]

I really hope the thing with Miko is just sort of mentioned in passing in the comic, rendering all of this arguing moot. It'd be really funny.

Well the Giant did way better then that by NOT mentionning it which means it was a perfectly legitimate LG behavior. As if arresting someone who just commited regicide could be anything else then LG anyway...well maybe LN. Thats kinda funny, I was looking for at least one Lawfull act Roy did recently and tecnically arresting Miko was.

[Yogi]

Yes, she attacked Shojo. And immedietly fell from grace. Miko had jumped to a conclusion. She was slightly mad. But that does not equate to homicidal. If Roy hadn't attacked, and simply arrested her (with Hinjo's blessing) she might have not started fighting. And she might have still been in the Asur City battle (as opposed to her one and oly action in that battle.First, since she killed someone, she is already homicidal. Second, it's not simply a case of not surrenduring peacefully, Miko tried to KILL Hinjo, instead of attempting an overrun. "He attacked me for no reason! If he hadn't, I wouldn't have tried to kill the President" is not a defense. It is, at best, crazy talk.

This made me laugh slightly, as it is why I never play LG. If you do, the dividing line is hard.

The Alignment system is very much down to personal interpretation. But personally, I wouldn't place Roy as LG. I really would put him down as NG, or possibly TN. Seriously, LG means respect for a code, or authority. And I can't remember Roy respecting either. He milked his helping Shojo for all it was worth, he dosn't fight notably honourably. I can't see an example of LG behavior, can someone point one out? (one or two G, but little LG.)

It's a cliche, but I see more similarity to Miko than Hinjo in Roy. But then, I've never really liked the fighter (his death has been the only OotS plot point I predicted). I remain waiting to see him do somthing that suprises me.I think Roy's Lawfulness is mostly his sense of duty. He decides to help fight against Xykon because of his father's blood oath, even though he doesn't really like his father at all. He shows loyalty and mostly protects his comrades, even if they're annoying. As for respecting authority, I personally think it's more respecting the IDEA of authority. Essencially, he beleives that things would go smoothly with an estabilished leader giving orders. Of course, respecting the idea of authority doesn't mean that all authority figures are automatically deserving of respect. For example, he has no problem working with Hinjo, some problems with Shojo, and lots of problems with Miko. Someone more chaotic wouldn't have tried to work with them at all, especially after being dragged across the continent in chains.

I would agree with you that Roy is more Good and Lawful. He isn't afraid to tell authority figures exactly what he thinks about them, and he eventually has enough of the blood oath. However, he beleives in strong leadership (imagine Belkar and Elan running around unsupervised and you would too) planning and working together to acheive a common goal. He's the person who reigns in Elan and Belkar's more Chaotic impulses and helps hold the group together.

[Porthos]

(points to sig) Just remember, being Lawful doesn't automatically mean that one respects authority. Conversely, just because you are Chaotic, it doesn't automatically follow that one disrespects authority.

After all, if Roy visited an extremely Lawful Evil society, I hardly think he would follow it's local laws or respect their authority. :smallwink: Oh sure, a Lawful person may be predisposed to respecting authority. But I think you will find that even Lawful people will work against Lawful entities that they feel must be opposed.

It's that whole guideline not straitjacket principle at work. :smallsmile:

And to bring it back to the world of OotS, Elan is extremely respectful of Roy's authority, even though he is as Chaotic as Chaotic can be. Course that doesn't stop Elan from taking light-hearted jabs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html) at Roy from time to time. But I still feel that Elan respects and admires Roy like no one else in the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) when it comes right down to it.

Just something to keep in mind when it comes to the whole Law/Chaos dichotomy. :smallsmile:

[Shatteredtower]

Shatteredtower, I won't get into the Hinjo Said Game Quotes at the mo, because they're not really germane to my overall point. :smallsmile: Sure.


You said Roy was being a mysoginist for calling Miko a bitch.No, his misogyny is reflected in telling her that everything could have been solved with a good screw. That is a far more personal attack than any shots taken at Nale, Sabine, or Xykon. It's not up to Xykon's standard, true, but Roy is supposed to be the good guy, y'know?

There are things you do not say to someone you'd once hit on -- unless you are very, very foolish. It does not justify them beating fifteen flavours of feces out of you, but you wouldn't get anyone's sympathy after it happened in a fight.


And even if it is Meta to be able to tell how close someone is to dropping (and strongly, strongly dispute that), this is the Order of the Stick we're talking about here.

They practically relish being meta. :smallwink:That, I will concede, is a very good point.


When was the last time you saw a suspect gun down someone and then not be responded to with an increased (usually lethal) response from police?You're trying to make one argument cover two situations.

The police will fire on someone who is clearly using a firearm against other people. Merely holding a gun, even after you've killed someone, does not give the police free license to shoot you. It gives them authority to prepare to shoot you if you do not obey the order to drop your weapon, but no more than this.


Somehow I don't think you've seen many, because otherwise a lot of people would be suing the police stations for endangering them by not neutralizing a dangerous killer and letting them escape.We're discussing real police, not Hollywood blockbusters.


The military scenario is in lieu of any prior missions (such as keeping one's position hidden for the purpose of completing some kind of objective). The situation is supposed to be just some combat unit that happens to be hiding out when it sees a target of opportunity that it is fairly certain it can take out.Yeah, we can quibble about the exact details until we've come to a specific set of parameters, but it really has nothing to do with Roy attacking Miko.


Miko killed Shojo. Therefore, she is a threat."The threat is stronger than the execution."

In other words, once the execution is completed, the threat ceases to exist. If Roy had truly believed she was a threat to anyone else, he would have acted a lot more quickly than we saw him do.


Not making threatening gestures does not make one any less of a threat.Yes, it does. What Roy did to Miko, he could have as easily done after giving her the warning to drop her weapon and surrender. Had she refused, it would not have changed the outcome of the first round.

Since it would not have changed the outcome of the worst case scenario (Miko attacks, but Roy still gets to swing first), and significantly reduced the likelihood of the best case scenario (Miko surrendering without a fight) coming to pass, it was clearly the wrong thing to do.


She executed him because she believed that he was conspiring against the Sapphire Guard, and said as much. And in the same breath, she accused the OOTS of the same thing.Because the gods smacked her down hard for killing Shojo. Wouldn't you hesitate before following through with the rest of your plan? Miko sure did.


And you also seem unable to wrap your head around the idea that attacking someone who is not expecting it is somehow evil.This accusation is too general in nature, and therefore baseless. Let us stick to the specifics: Roy, specifically, was wrong. He was not attacking someone with sword raised to strike him, Hinjo, or Belkar. He was not attacking someone to prevent her from signalling Xykon and Redcloak to invade. He attacked for personal, selfish reasons, with no regard for the consequences. That's evil. It doesn't make him evil, but it's still evil.


If they are about to attack you, then the right thing to do (in fact, the best thing you can do) is stop them before they can hurt anyone.And if they weren't about to attack you, the wrong thing you could do would be to attack them.

Since Roy could not know that Miko was about to attack anyone after what she'd just been through, he should merely have prepared an attack and demanded her surrender. If she had been about to attack, he'd still get in the first shot, which would fulfill your criteria for the right thing to do if attacked. If she had not been about to attack, he'd still be doing the right thing.

Instead, he either did the right thing for the wrong reasons, or he clearly did the wrong thing.

(Incidentally, stopping someone before they can hurt anyone is not the right thing to do if attacked. Removing people from danger is. These are not synonymous actions, though there is sometimes overlap.)


Stopping people from coming to harm is one of the pillars of Good. Giving someone who had just killed a man and was very likely to do it again the chance to continue killing is not Good.Attacking someone who did not need to be attacked is evil. Roy did not prevent others from coming to harm; he ensured that it would happen, and Hinjo nearly paid with his life.

That might have been avoided, if Roy had made any kind of effort. It may very well have been a long shot, but good believes in those long shots. There was no additional risk involved in taking it, so Roy has no excuse for what he did.


But the fact that she killed Shojo is clear and undeniable proof that she was willing to kill without legal authority.If that were true, it would be legal to shoot anyone who's ever served time for murder. It's not: clear and present danger must be established. Miko was not a clear danger at this time. Matters might have been resolved peacefully -- if the subject was not attacked and goaded further into anger.


In short, if she killed Shojo, she would definitely try to kill them. There's no escaping this simple fact.It's not a fact.

Now if Miko had not received word from up high that she'd done something wrong (even if she was not willing to understand those words), yes, I think there's a very good chance that she would have gone after both Roy and Belkar at that time. However, that situation has changed drastically for Miko, which is why we don't see her pressing her attack against Belkar and Roy in the strip.

Her next action is not clear -- until Roy made it clear.


Now, I'd like to ask that you provide some evidence as to Miko NOT being about to kill them.She was facing away from them, her sword by her side. Doesn't sound like a very aggressive stance to me.

Again, maybe she would have attacked them anyway. There's no proof of this, however, which means that attacking her was not justified.


She has plenty of time to surrender...She was also clearly in shock. Thank goodness Roy was there to bring her out of it, though!


...and later when Hinjo calmly tries to reason with her, she attacks him when he is clearly not expecting it.Indeed, and it was wrong of her to do so. However, it does nothing to justify Roy's actions in attacking her.


This also does not take into account what Roy knows about Miko's personality: she is an unstable person who will use any rationalization to justify her actions and refuses to admit that she is wrong.Untrue. Certainly, she has a serious problem with this sort of thing and it contributed heavily to both her downfall and death, but it is not as cut and dry as Roy might claim it to be. It means he doesn't have to accept responsibility for all the times he tried to fight her fire with gasoline.

However, even if the charges against her were true, they do not excuse Roy from acting as he did.


The murder of Shojo is nothing more than a confirmation of everything Roy knew about her.Even if that were true, it's still a) not why he attacked her, and b) no excuse for having done so.


And Roy is not about to let it keep spiralling madly out of control.Roy did his best to ensure that it would continue to spiral out of control. If he'd tried to talk her down from the beginning and failed, he'd have been fighting her with Hinjo at his side, with less risk to both of them (and the opportunity to score flanking bonuses). If he'd tried and succeeded, no one else would have been hurt.


Unfortunately, anyone who watched her jump to such a far-fetched conclusion like she did would know that reasoning fails to work on her. Therefore, force is the only remaining option.Untrue. I have demonstrated that Roy would have lost nothing by holding force in reserve. Furthermore, I have also shown what Roy's actions cost everyone involved, both in fact (Hinjo hurt, Roy bruised, Miko in no condition to learn anything) and in potential (any hope of surrender, any or all of them dead).


And finally, I would like to point out that calling something irrelevant doesn't make it so. Please provide some actual reasoning, rather than simply calling things irrelevant.I did. Apples have no relevance in this discussion on oranges.

Roy isn't a police officer. He's also not a solider on the battlefield. He's a guy on the scene of an assassination in which the killer is a prominent member of a powerful organization in service to the man she'd just murdered, now in a state of shock. The last thing anyone in that situation should be doing is provoking further violence.


You said that Roy COULD NOT tell how many HP Miko has left. I told you how he COULD.Yes, you did. I noted I disagreed. I still do. Now I'm sorry that the words I chose caused you injury, but it doesn't change my position.


The weather, Roy only having a club, and Windstriker were all factors.I mentioned both Windstriker and the greatclub in a previous post, so there's no point in bringing them up again. I even went one better than that, showing exactly how much the average damage would increase and how much more likely Roy was to score a hit. Yes, I failed to mention the weather, though it only applied to the first fight. I also neglected to mention the fact that Elan was unable to play his lute in that first battle.

But in the second, it wasn't Windstriker that took down Belkar, then Elan and Varsuuvius -- it was Miko. Sure, she could (and did) smite Belkar for extra damage she couldn't do to Hinjo (and considering her reaction to making the same attempt against Roy, its effect on Belkar would have confirmed his evil -- which means that technically, she had detected evil on Belkar after all), but she was through three of them before Roy could take her down, even though he was able to flank. That means he had an additional +4 bonus on his attack rolls with the greatsword (+5 bonus and Weapon Focus, compared to +2 flanking bonus) and was doing an average of 8.5 points more damage per successful attack, of which he gets three per round. If the difference is causing him to hit one more time per round (most likely), he's averaging an extra 31 points more per round in which he gets a full attack, but only 8.5 in the rounds he makes just one attack.

That's quite good, but surely the rest of his teammates could have contributed at least that much damage against Miko per round the last time they fought, no? With that in mind, how did they manage to lose, if it's so obvious that Roy was clearly winning throughout the entire one-on-one fight?


No speed lines = no charge.Wrong, Don't presume to dictate to the Giant that the visual guidelines are unbreakable rules. He didn't use it for running here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) or the overrun here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html), despite the fact that we can see hobgoblins leaping through the air.


Besides, it hardly matters what type of attack it was, so much as the fact that Miko was two hits away from nap-time or stabalization checks.Actually, it does. If Roy merely sauntered up to smack her one, he was hardly doing his best for Hinjo's sake. That additional +2 of BAB (or +4 hp of damage) was critical. (Yes, it was. After all, we've already established that his use of the greatsword, giving him extra damage and a higher attack bonus, matters.) It might easily have been the difference between what we saw and the death of either Hinjo -- or Roy.

Good thing we'll never know.

Let's not forget that Miko struck Shojo once for at least 45 hp of damage, assuming average ability scores for an old man, though I'm willing to believe the DM took dramatic license and waived the hp. Even assuming she was only capable of doing just less than half that most of the time, that still leaves Roy sporting 66 hp of damage (not including the kick), with up to another 88 she declined to deliver. We know Roy isn't optimized, so at 14th level (81 hp average), even with a 16 Con (125 hp average), he's not capable of withstanding that kind of punishment. In fact, if her average damage per attack exceeds. I could take that down as low as an average of 15 hp per strike before we could guarantee that Roy would still have been standing (assuming no critical hits).

But we know the Giant isn't bound by mechanics. Roy won because he was scripted to win, and lost because he was scripted to lose. By the rules, however, neither his loss nor his win would have been one-sided affairs.


Don't play stupid.Such baseless presumption is unwarranted and foolish.


Your assertion was that Roy only changed his mind after Hinjo stopped him. However, Hinjo was quite happy with attacking with Lethal damage, so it makes no sense that Hinjo attacking with Lethal damage would inspare Roy to attack with non-Lethal.What do you mean it makes no sense? Hinjo clearly wanted her alive or he wouldn't have ordered Roy to stay out of things. In a fight for his life, he no longer had that luxury (and yet I still suspect that his lack of success in landing a hit came down to either fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise). Furthermore, as we both know, Miko's good at getting under certain people's skin. Hinjo had the luxury of distance after Miko got away from Roy; Roy had the luxury of distance once she attacked Hinjo.

Better yet, it allowed Roy the ideal opportunity to throw one of his trademark verbal jabs at Hinjo -- disobeying the instruction not to interfere in just such a way that he could still fulfill Hinjo's wishes, rather than just save his life. (I mean, saving his life is cool and all, but having the satisfaction of rubbing the rescued party's face in how you did it? It's one of the reasons Belkar continues to put up with him.)


Miko outclasses Hinjo, so it's OK for him to go Lethal Damage. According to you Miko outclasses Roy as well, so it's OK for Roy to . . .If she can beat Roy and his party with only the difference of her mount and a choice of weapon, it's clear that she outclasses Roy.

As for this particular situation, Hinjo managed to hit Miko once, which is a surprisingly low ratio for a guy on full offense. If he was on the defensive, he had two choices: increase his attack penalty further (to -8 or -9) in an effort to do nonlethal damage, or focus on defense (no matter how useless it's proving to be) and just hope to chip away at her. Bad strategy that, based on what we've seen, but it's consistent with a guy who seems more interested in being a defender (of good, his city, his people) than an attacker (of evil and anyone Miko assumes to be in league with it). It was his neck on the line, though, so I can hardly blame him for changing his mind to a kill-or-be-killed view.

So yeah, Roy, having nothing to lose, changed his tactics to those offering him maximum overcompensating tendencies -- because Roy does that sort of thing all the time.


Miko has a long history of "They were evil, so I killed them."Sure. And with the possible exception of Samantha's father, they were evil, whereas he'd attacked her. She's never killed a member of the Order, though we both know she'd have killed Belkar after the trial if the Order hadn't intervened -- and the Order itself, at least in part, if Shojo hadn't intervened.


she now thinks Roy and Belkar are evil, can't tell if they are via Detect Evil or Common SenseCommon sense confirmed that Belkar was evil after he'd painted signs with the blood of a dead man. Roy confirmed that he was willing to work with evil -- against good (even if it wasn't what he defined as good).


...and has a nasty habit of not admitting she's wrong. What resulted was inevitable.Though the first statement is true, it does not prove the second. Roy leapt to conclusions. He had better reason for doing so than Miko did, but that does not make it all right.


Not for lack of trying.Yeah, there's that leaping to conclusions bit again. We see Miko attack Roy after she's been attacked by him, so obviously she was going to attack him in any case. And we see her attack Hinjo as well, so it's obvious she'd have done so even if Roy had done the smart thing.

Yes, it was wrong for Miko to attack Hinjo. It was an unjustified action. It was also a consequence of Roy's conduct, which is why Hinjo told him to stay out of things at the end. Yes, yes, look how that turned out, but look hard. Miko could have gone either way in that discussion. Had Roy proven more reliable, Hinjo would have been able to trust him and deal with her rejection better. Had Roy not attacked at all, Hinjo's odds of success would have been higher -- not guaranteed, but considering how close he came even after Roy came after her, quite good indeed.

Roy isn't responsible for Miko's failure, but he's certain responsible for his own in dealing with her.


Yes, let's listen to Roy's testemony, but ALL of it this time.Right. Did it say anything about right and wrong? No. It said that Roy felt justified in kicking Miko's ass, consequences be damned.

What? He didn't say the "Consequences be damned," part? Of course he did -- through his actions.


Huh? It's just a -4 on your attack roll.Then a +8.5 difference in average damage per attack means nothing. You don't get to have it both ways.


So, how many lives are you willing to risk to make sure Miko's feelings weren't hurt?Fewer than Roy did in attacking her, that's for certain. By attacking, he created division between himself and Hinjo, a clear liability that nearly got either himself, Hinjo, or Belkar killed. If he'd held back, he'd have been talking her down or fighting her with Hinjo's assistance.


Look up "submission" in the dictionary. It is impossible for a person to submit when dead.So Roy's solution was to attempt to batter a disturbed (and falling from grace is pretty disturbing) individual into surrendering even if it killed her first? Sure looks like it. Doesn't look like she'd surrender to violence, though, especially when it's backed up by a series of sexually charged insults.


The Secret Service immediately dogpiled the person.The key word being "immediately", and there was nothing immediate about Roy's action. Now if he'd been coming at her from the moment she raised her sword, sure, but he didn't. Miko struck and he wasn't doing anything. Miko got struck down, and he still wasn't doing anything. Shojo uttered his last words -- and Roy was still standing there.

So no, Roy can't use that as a justification for his actions.

[David Argall]

When was the last time you saw a suspect gun down someone and then not be responded to with an increased (usually lethal) response from police? Somehow I don't think you've seen many, because otherwise a lot of people would be suing the police stations for endangering them by not neutralizing a dangerous killer and letting them escape.
Legal point #1: The police are not in the slightest under any legal requirement to defend you. You can sue them all you like for failure to protect you from even the most blatent and proven threat, and your suit will be tossed as fast as it gets to court.
Legal Point #2: The police are sometimes successfully sued for excess use of force, and for quite substantial sums when they have killed some innocent.
Police Procedure #1: The police are instructed to use the minimum amount of force, lethal force in particular, that the situation requires. In other words, if you do not have to shoot, you don't.


Miko killed Shojo. Therefore, she is a threat.
That she is a threat is not sufficient. She must be an immediate threat. That does not mean she might attack in a minute. It means she is going to attack within seconds, if she is not attacking already. It does not mean she has attacked or not attacked anyone in the past, recent or distant. It only covers the immediate future.


Why would she not kill them, when she had just killed her master for the very same thing?
She killed Shojo and obviously discovered something was wrong. The assumption that she was still planning to kill anybody else is thus challenged.
Moreover, her justification for killing Shojo included factors that don't apply to Roy. She said Shojo would fix any trial. Roy would not be able to manage that.


If they are about to attack you, then the right thing to do (in fact, the best thing you can do) is stop them before they can hurt anyone.
Now note that this depends on being able to prove the other fellow was about to attack. And it is very common for the attacker to make the claim that he is about to be attacked. In fact, police routinely find that both sides in any brawl insist the other side attacked first.
So your claim that Roy was defending himself by attacking first requires absolute proof that she was going to attack, proof that is clearly lacking.

And we have the reverse. Roy flatly rejects the idea he is defending himself. He has one reason, and one reason only, for his attack, that being a form of revenge.


Stopping people from coming to harm is one of the pillars of Good.
And of course, the first thing Roy does is harm Miko.


You keep saying that there is no evidence that Miko was going to attack them. But the fact that she killed Shojo is clear and undeniable proof that she was willing to kill without legal authority.
So everyone who has been convicted of murder can be attacked on sight as a threat? Clearly not. So we can not assume Miko is still a threat.


In short, if she killed Shojo, she would definitely try to kill them. There's no escaping this simple fact.
It is easily escaped, and not a fact. There are simply too many cases where the killing stops with the 1st.


Now, I'd like to ask that you provide some evidence as to Miko NOT being about to kill them.
No such proof is needed. The plea of self defense is a positive one, and the one making it must provide the proof.


She has her sword in her hand. She has plenty of time to surrender,
To who? Nobody demanded her surrender before Roy attacked her.


And Roy is not about to let it keep spiralling madly out of control.
Again, Roy tells us his reason, and it is not to keep Miko under control. He is quite simply mad at her. Justifiably mad, but it is still only his anger, and not self defense, or defense of society, an attempt to arrest her, or any other motive that moralists accept as a proper motive for an attack.


Yes, let's listen to Roy's testemony, but ALL of it this time.

Roy: "All that matters to me right now is that I'm really really angry. Which means I'm kicking your fallen paladin ass right now."

Well gee, it looks like you were right after all. That's why Roy attacked, he even said so himself. It's not like he actually said . . .

Roy: "All that matters to me right now is that you just killed the only other person who was actively trying to solve this stupid end-of-the-world thing. Which means I'm kicking your fallen paladin ass right now."
Same difference. The first says "I attack because I am mad." The 2nd merely says why he is mad. In both cases, he cites a past event as the sole justification of his action. There is no reference to future dangers.


Hinjo's a Paladin. He's held at a higher standard than just Lawful Good.
True, but that gives Roy only a partial pass. Paladin behavior is THE LG behavior, and what fails to meet that standard is by definition defective in some degree by LG standards. So this is, at best, a guilty plea to a misdemeanor instead of a felony.
And it still looks like a felony. Roy attacks a Miko who is just standing there. No demand she surrender. No waiting to see what she will do. He just attacks.


If Roy wanted to kill Miko, he would have Coup de Grace-ed her, like he did with the Goblins.
Entirely different situations. Roy killed goblins that were a continuing threat. Miko was no longer a threat.
The lack of a coup is not evidence of a lack of an intent to kill. My characters have killed likely a thousand foes, and never done a coup. Nor do I see any notable numbers of coups by other players, who have killed their thousands too. You are guilty of murder if the foe dies unjustly, whether or not you used a coup.


Clearly insulting someone is DEFINITE PROOF of lethal intent.
No, it is proof that Roy had the chance to tell us that he was using nonlethal tactics. His failure to tell us that is evidence he was not using such tactics.


It's non-lethal because she's still alive. Compared to the crap a usual adventurer goes through, thrown across the room is hardly lethal.
Miko is also a heavily wounded PC.
The rules don't really allow such a blow, but if we use the Explosive Metamagic from CA [which is probably too little damage], Miko suffers 1d6 per 10' and 1d6 for hitting the wall. We are talking about a rather long distance here too. A minimal damage is 6d6 and can easily be double that. That of course is in addition to the weapon damage. A healthy Miko can live with this, but we have quite a few wounds on her already.


Huh? It's just a -4 on your attack roll.
Which means 4 rolls that would have hit no longer do. That is 20% of your possible rolls. It can be a much larger percentage of your hits. If Roy normally needed a 15 to hit = 30%, -4 means only a 10% chance.
Roy no doubt has a pretty good bonus to his roll, but Miko probably has a pretty good AC. And if we assume, as the picture implies, that he is swinging for the fences and using near full PA, there is a dangerous chance he will miss. Since Hinjo is dangerously close to death, that makes using nonlethal attacks too risky.


She already DID attack others.
And so has Roy, and so has Belkar, and so has... The fact of a past attack is merely history.


Bottom line: Hinjo's talk it out solution did not work. Roy's batter it into submission solution did.
The question is whether Hinjo's talking would have worked if Roy had never attacked Miko. Given that somebody attacking you has got to get you angry, it seems a given that attacking made Hinjo's chances worse. Since he came very close to getting her to surrender, there is a major chance she would have gone quietly.


Why?
Hinjo had the delicate, and ultimately futile, job of talking Miko down. To nitpick about the precise legality of Roy's actions just makes it more difficult.


Where did he say that?
His comment about Roy enjoying it.


Again, where is this shown?
Same conversation.


Look up "submission" in the dictionary. It is impossible for a person to submit when dead.
As noted, Batter is an expansive word. It covers the mild and extreme cases. Batter into submission covers batter to death. And Hinjo has no particular reason to think Roy was trying to avoid her death. There are enough stabs into Miko to make that a dubious idea.
Note that any time you are battering someone, you have a very real chance of killing them. And Roy did do lethal damage. The D&D rules may let him metagame the situation, but in a real situation, he was clearly risking killing her.


Or putting down a violent animal.
But obviously Hinjo did not consider Miko a violent animal at that time. He was talking with her.


As you mensioned before, at that time Roy (and Hinjo) would have been perfectly justified in killing Miko.
They would have been justified when she was trying to kill Hinjo [or when she was trying to kill Shojo for that matter]. In between and after, there is not sufficient justification.
The justification is the immediate threat of her killing someone. It is not the someday threat, even when the threat is high and not far in the future. It must be an immediate threat.


Look at the tape of the Regan shooting. The Secret Service did not ask the suspect to drop his gun or surrender. The Secret Service immediately dogpiled the person.
Now you should give a link in such a case, but going by your description, we have evidence in my favor. They dogpiled him. They did not shoot. He survived. In fact he wasn't really even hurt. So they argue against trying to kill or seriously injure Miko.
We also have the difference in the situation. The shooter was still armed and able to continue shooting. There was every indication he was going to continue to attack. The decision had to be made that very instant on what to do. With Miko, we simply have her standing there. One can guess, but it is clearly possible that she was done attacking.

[Shadic]

Better yet, it allowed Roy the ideal opportunity to throw one of his trademark verbal jabs at Hinjo -- disobeying the instruction not to interfere in just such a way that he could still fulfill Hinjo's wishes, rather than just save his life. (I mean, saving his life is cool and all, but having the satisfaction of rubbing the rescued party's face in how you did it? It's one of the reasons Belkar continues to put up with him.)

Actually, I'm pretty sure Roy said that because he's irritated of the stupid fighter stereotype. Being told not to "Batter things into submission," could easily be taken as degrading for a fighter, especially one with a high intelligence/wisdom score.



The key word being "immediately", and there was nothing immediate about Roy's action. Now if he'd been coming at her from the moment she raised her sword, sure, but he didn't. Miko struck and he wasn't doing anything. Miko got struck down, and he still wasn't doing anything. Shojo uttered his last words -- and Roy was still standing there.

Roy started towards her the second that she raised her sword, as you can see in Comic 406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html). He had his hand on the hilt of his sword, and was moving forward, as you can see by the position his legs.

[Shatteredtower]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Roy said that because he's irritated of the stupid fighter stereotype. Being told not to "Batter things into submission," could easily be taken as degrading for a fighter, especially one with a high intelligence/wisdom score.It's still consistent with doing the job Hinjo couldn't do.


Roy started towards her the second that she raised her sword, as you can see in Comic 406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html). He had his hand on the hilt of his sword, and was moving forward, as you can see by the position his legs.You're right. My mistake. Indeed, it looks like Roy would have been up there and in the fight immediately if it weren't for that bolt from the heavens.

The point remains, however, that the moment has passed. Roy can no longer use the justification of an immediate threat.

[Shadic]

Well, sure he waited for a second afterwards... But what did he do with those few seconds? Announced to Belkar that he was going to do something, and then told Miko that he was going to "Kick her ass."


As for the Hinjo comment.. Why does it matter? He's annoyed because he feels like his chosen class was just downgraded, but he can't make a comment after proving himself otherwise?

[ZootZoot]

If he wanted to kill her, he had plenty of time when she was knocked senseless by the blunt edge of his sword. As much as I love reading the novels, he didn't intend to kill her.

[Shatteredtower]

Well, sure he waited for a second afterwards... But what did he do with those few seconds? Announced to Belkar that he was going to do something, and then told Miko that he was going to "Kick her ass."It's still not immediate action to deal with a threat. That's the point.


As for the Hinjo comment.. Why does it matter? He's annoyed because he feels like his chosen class was just downgraded, but he can't make a comment after proving himself otherwise?No one downgraded his class. His behaviour was another matter. Roy solved a problem he may very well have created with violence -- with more violence.

In other words, if that was how Roy saw it, he was jumping to conclusions. And taking a shot at Hinjo's expense.

[Shatteredtower]

If he wanted to kill her, he had plenty of time when she was knocked senseless by the blunt edge of his sword. As much as I love reading the novels, he didn't intend to kill her.Even if I were to agree, it means that he was instead toying with and abusing her. No matter what frustrations he was feeling, that's still inexcusable.

[Shadic]

In other words, if that was how Roy saw it, he was jumping to conclusions. And taking a shot at Hinjo's expense.

So? Hinjo is one of my favorite characters, but that line was nothing that should have seriously offended him. Roy let Hinjo do his thing and talk to Miko, and even when he failed, left him to his business. Only when Hinjo was in risk of dying did Roy interfere... Why not make a comment to Hinjo after his actions were brushed away initially? Roy still thought of himself as in the right.

[turkishproverb]

OH, lord this is funny. It reminds me of some of the people I know at college. They're such caracitures of various political views that you think they must be doing it JUST to tick people off. No reasoning. Responses that are circular logic.

Seriously, I can't help but wonder if Tower is doing this just to keep the conversation going.

Either way, I'm betitng Belkar is going to be the biggest black mark or white mark for him, depending.

WHite, you ask? Simple

"We noticed you have managed to turn a force of pure destruction into a tool. WHile we do not approve of your not turining him into the authorities, the fact is that while under your guidance, the majority of his kills have been of evil creatures, ususally with some amount of legal justification. Much better than his origional history of killing anyone and everyone. And much better than a summary execution for crimes you couldn't prove, or the mere existance of a negative alighnment."

[Yogi]

Yes, you did. I noted I disagreed. I still do. Now I'm sorry that the words I chose caused you injury, but it doesn't change my position.So you admit you have no argument.

I mentioned both Windstriker and the greatclub in a previous post, so there's no point in bringing them up again. I even went one better than that, showing exactly how much the average damage would increase and how much more likely Roy was to score a hit. Yes, I failed to mention the weather, though it only applied to the first fight. I also neglected to mention the fact that Elan was unable to play his lute in that first battle.There's also the fact that Miko only has one weapon in the current battle. Also, her full attack only dealt minor damage.

But in the second, it wasn't Windstriker that took down Belkar, then Elan and Varsuuvius -- it was Miko. *Snipped for Space*The Giant never said if his fight description was cannon. The post specifically said "or it could have just been plot railroading."

Wrong, Don't presume to dictate to the Giant that the visual guidelines are unbreakable rules. He didn't use it for running here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) or the overrun here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html), despite the fact that we can see hobgoblins leaping through the air.IF you're saying there's no proof either way, that in no means indicates that you're right.

Actually, it does. If Roy merely sauntered up to smack her one, he was hardly doing his best for Hinjo's sake. That additional +2 of BAB (or +4 hp of damage) was critical. (Yes, it was. After all, we've already established that his use of the greatsword, giving him extra damage and a higher attack bonus, matters.) It might easily have been the difference between what we saw and the death of either Hinjo -- or Roy.

Good thing we'll never know.That doesn't seem to stop you from claiming you're right.

So Roy's doing too much to stop Miko, except when he's not doing enough?

Let's not forget that Miko struck Shojo once for at least 45 hp of damage, assuming average ability scores for an old man, though I'm willing to believe the DM took dramatic license and waived the hp. Even assuming she was only capable of doing just less than half that most of the time, that still leaves Roy sporting 66 hp of damage (not including the kick), with up to another 88 she declined to deliver. We know Roy isn't optimized, so at 14th level (81 hp average), even with a 16 Con (125 hp average), he's not capable of withstanding that kind of punishment. In fact, if her average damage per attack exceeds. I could take that down as low as an average of 15 hp per strike before we could guarantee that Roy would still have been standing (assuming no critical hits).But Roy only had one small scratch on him. It could have been that Miko rolled very bad for damage, or simply because, when hitting a stationary unresisting sitting target, she could afford to dump her entire BAB into Power Attack.

What do you mean it makes no sense? Hinjo clearly wanted her alive or he wouldn't have ordered Roy to stay out of things. In a fight for his life, he no longer had that luxury (and yet I still suspect that his lack of success in landing a hit came down to either fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise). Furthermore, as we both know, Miko's good at getting under certain people's skin. Hinjo had the luxury of distance after Miko got away from Roy; Roy had the luxury of distance once she attacked Hinjo.If as you said Hinjo wanted Miko alive, but he could not afford to deal lethal damage, he would have asked Roy to help him. In two vs. one, he could then afford to do lethal damage since they would have an advantage. The Paladins vs. Xykon scene shows that mandatory one vs. ones are not part of their code of honor.

Better yet, it allowed Roy the ideal opportunity to throw one of his trademark verbal jabs at Hinjo *snipped for space*Which does not hinge on the fact that Miko needed to be alive.

As for this particular situation, Hinjo managed to hit Miko once, which is a surprisingly low ratio for a guy on full offense. If he was on the defensive, he had two choices: increase his attack penalty further (to -8 or -9) in an effort to do nonlethal damage, or focus on defense (no matter how useless it's proving to be) and just hope to chip away at her. Bad strategy that, based on what we've seen, but it's consistent with a guy who seems more interested in being a defender (of good, his city, his people) than an attacker (of evil and anyone Miko assumes to be in league with it). It was his neck on the line, though, so I can hardly blame him for changing his mind to a kill-or-be-killed view.Contradictory. He wants to be a defender, so he doesn't attack, which forces him to deal lethal instead of non-lethal damage?

Sure. And with the possible exception of Samantha's father, they were evil, whereas he'd attacked her. She's never killed a member of the Order, though we both know she'd have killed Belkar after the trial if the Order hadn't intervened -- and the Order itself, at least in part, if Shojo hadn't intervened.No, I'm talking about her killing anything that Detects Evil. Strip 228.

Common sense confirmed that Belkar was evil after he'd painted signs with the blood of a dead man. Roy confirmed that he was willing to work with evil -- against good (even if it wasn't what he defined as good).So both of them were in danger of being killed.

Though the first statement is true, it does not prove the second. Roy leapt to conclusions. He had better reason for doing so than Miko did, but that does not make it all right.Yeah, he should have waited until Miko ACTUALLY killed someone before he attacked.

Actually, what he SHOULD have done was charge Miko as soon as he saw her draw her sword against Shojo. He was pretty close, he might have made it.

Yes, it was wrong for Miko to attack Hinjo. It was an unjustified action. It was also a consequence of Roy's conduct,LISTEN to yourself. "I was going to surrender quietly, but since I was punched in the face, I think I'll kill the *Executive head of state* instead!" How is that even remotely plausible?

Right. Did it say anything about right and wrong? No. It said that Roy felt justified in kicking Miko's ass, consequences be damned.Well, of course he felt it was justified. I also think it's justified.

Then a +8.5 difference in average damage per attack means nothing. You don't get to have it both ways.What are you talking about?

Fewer than Roy did in attacking her, that's for certain. By attacking, he created division between himself and Hinjo, a clear liability that nearly got either himself, Hinjo, or Belkar killed. If he'd held back, he'd have been talking her down or fighting her with Hinjo's assistance.Roy attacked Miko. The results were, no one died, Miko included. How could this have been improved upon? Let be guess, Miko gains a half dozen Wisdom points and collapses, lamenting the error of her ways, right?

So Roy's solution was to attempt to batter a disturbed (and falling from grace is pretty disturbing) individual into surrendering even if it killed her first? Sure looks like it. Doesn't look like she'd surrender to violence, though, especially when it's backed up by a series of sexually charged insults.Yep!

The key word being "immediately", and there was nothing immediate about Roy's action. Now if he'd been coming at her from the moment she raised her sword, sure, but he didn't. Miko struck and he wasn't doing anything. Miko got struck down, and he still wasn't doing anything. Shojo uttered his last words -- and Roy was still standing there.

So no, Roy can't use that as a justification for his actions.You can clearly see that everyone was stunned when the depowering occurred. Next round Roy took a five foot step and attacked.

I find it amusing that now you're saying that Roy couldn't kick Miko's ass fast enough. This is just one tautological argument. Roy should not have attacked her at all, or should have attacked her immediately. He's irresponsible for dealing non-lethal damage, and reckless for dealing lethal damage. But that's OK, since Miko could kick Roy's ass any day of the week, but isn't Roy a meanie attacking that poor confused lady.


Same difference. The first says "I attack because I am mad." The 2nd merely says why he is mad. In both cases, he cites a past event as the sole justification of his action. There is no reference to future dangers.Actually, the real quote doesn't mention the fact that he's mad at all.

True, but that gives Roy only a partial pass. Paladin behavior is THE LG behavior, and what fails to meet that standard is by definition defective in some degree by LG standards. So this is, at best, a guilty plea to a misdemeanor instead of a felony.Oh this is new. I've seen Moving Goalposts before, but moving Roy's "Lawful Good" goalpost all the way to Paladin level just takes the cake. Besides, there are multiple levels of Lawful Good behavior for Paladins as well, ranging from the Very Good (and somewhat lawful) to the Very Lawful (and somewhat good.)

And it still looks like a felony. Roy attacks a Miko who is just standing there. No demand she surrender. No waiting to see what she will do. He just attacks.AND picked up her sword again, and has a known habit of slicing first and possibly asking questions later.

And he hasn't asked enemies to surrender for the past 406 strips, so it's not anything NEW.

Entirely different situations. Roy killed goblins that were a continuing threat. Miko was no longer a threat.Let's ask Hinjo for a second opinion.

The lack of a coup is not evidence of a lack of an intent to kill. My characters have killed likely a thousand foes, and never done a coup. Nor do I see any notable numbers of coups by other players, who have killed their thousands too. You are guilty of murder if the foe dies unjustly, whether or not you used a coup.Touche. I'll just have to go with the fact that Greatswords don't normally go *POW*

No, it is proof that Roy had the chance to tell us that he was using nonlethal tactics. His failure to tell us that is evidence he was not using such tactics.Guilty until proven innocent?

The rules don't really allow such a blow, *Snipped for Space*Actually, I think there's a feat that allows you to knock back your opponent when you deal lots of damage.

Which means 4 rolls that would have hit no longer do. That is 20% of your possible rolls. It can be a much larger percentage of your hits. If Roy normally needed a 15 to hit = 30%, -4 means only a 10% chance.
Roy no doubt has a pretty good bonus to his roll, but Miko probably has a pretty good AC. And if we assume, as the picture implies, that he is swinging for the fences and using near full PA, there is a dangerous chance he will miss. Since Hinjo is dangerously close to death, that makes using nonlethal attacks too risky.He dropped her on the first hit, which coincidentally hit. If he was using a full attack, even if the first one missed, he has several other opportunities.

And so has Roy, and so has Belkar, and so has... The fact of a past attack is merely history.Stop playing dumb. You know I'm referring to the regicide attack a few rounds ago, the one that makes Miko dangerous.

The question is whether Hinjo's talking would have worked if Roy had never attacked Miko. Given that somebody attacking you has got to get you angry, it seems a given that attacking made Hinjo's chances worse. Since he came very close to getting her to surrender, there is a major chance she would have gone quietly.OK, this crap has been trotted out so many times, I'm going to put a stop to this right now.

Miko's initial attitude was "Unfriendly". Hinjo tried a Diplomacy roll, and Miko wound up attacking him. That means the adjusted value was below 5. To get Miko to surrender, it would have needed to go up to at least Friendly, which is a DC 25. Even if we do indifferent, it's stil DC 15.

Are you saying that Roy's attack is sufficient to inflict a MINUS ELEVEN penalty on Hinjo's diplomacy check?

Hinjo had the delicate, and ultimately futile, job of talking Miko down. To nitpick about the precise legality of Roy's actions just makes it more difficult.

His comment about Roy enjoying it.

Same conversation. He's a Paladin, so when he says that [in his opinion] Roy didn't do anything wrong, it can't be a lie.

As noted, Batter is an expansive word. It covers the mild and extreme cases. Batter into submission covers batter to death.The dictionary disagrees.

Note that any time you are battering someone, you have a very real chance of killing them. And Roy did do lethal damage. The D&D rules may let him metagame the situation, but in a real situation, he was clearly risking killing her.Of course he ran the risk of killing her. He's an adventurer, his entire life is a series of calculated risks. Some pay off, some get you a meteor swarm and 20d6 falling damage.

They would have been justified when she was trying to kill Hinjo [or when she was trying to kill Shojo for that matter]. In between and after, there is not sufficient justification. The justification is the immediate threat of her killing someone. It is not the someday threat, even when the threat is high and not far in the future. It must be an immediate threat.Which Miko was. You don't need to be 100% sure that someone is a threat before you attack. There's a point where you're reasonably sure, the risk is high enough that you make a calculated decision to proceed.

Now you should give a link in such a case, but going by your description, we have evidence in my favor. They dogpiled him. They did not shoot. He survived. In fact he wasn't really even hurt. So they argue against trying to kill or seriously injure Miko.It's rather hard for Roy to do a one-man dogpile. If there were five Roys, they might have tried to all grapple her at once, but who really wants to grapple someone with Monk levels? With no other subduing method available, Roy works with what he has.

We also have the difference in the situation. The shooter was still armed and able to continue shooting. There was every indication he was going to continue to attack. The decision had to be made that very instant on what to do. With Miko, we simply have her standing there. One can guess, but it is clearly possible that she was done attacking.Ah, the weasel word "possible" Yes it was "possible" that she was done attacking. A very great many things are "possible", especially when insane amounts of natural 20s are involved. The term I think we're looking for is "likely"

[Moral Wiz]

First, since she killed someone, she is already homicidal. Second, it's not simply a case of not surrenduring peacefully, Miko tried to KILL Hinjo, instead of attempting an overrun. "He attacked me for no reason! If he hadn't, I wouldn't have tried to kill the President" is not a defense. It is, at best, crazy talk.

Ok.

1; don't drag reality into this. Seriously; judging somthing by modern law is not a good way to go

2; She killed Shojo, but obviously felt justified. We can see the justification (even though we know it to be false) Than her gods immedietly made her fall from grace... She didn't expect that. She was in shock untill Roy attacked. If he hadn't, I'd give good odds she'd go quietly.

3:the whole Hinjo thing? the fact that she tried to kill him, that she wouldn't surrender? (The fact that getts quoted every time this comes up?) That was after Roy had attacked. Remember; she's into paranoia at this point. She's not only confused, she's acting on adreneline. If one person attacks her, the second who wants here to surrender is an enemy too.


I think Roy's Lawfulness is mostly his sense of duty. He decides to help fight against Xykon because of his father's blood oath, even though he doesn't really like his father at all. He shows loyalty and mostly protects his comrades, even if they're annoying.

I think this one might be about to not turn out so well. ;) but I take your point


As for respecting authority, I personally think it's more respecting the IDEA of authority. Essencially, he beleives that things would go smoothly with an estabilished leader giving orders. Of course, respecting the idea of authority doesn't mean that all authority figures are automatically deserving of respect. For example, he has no problem working with Hinjo, some problems with Shojo, and lots of problems with Miko. Someone more chaotic wouldn't have tried to work with them at all, especially after being dragged across the continent in chains.

Yeah, but when authority (any authority) believes somthing diferent? He'll cheat them till they see things his way. Vis, Hinjo sentencing Belkar. He'll work with authority,but that alone dosn't make LG and I haven't seen him respect it.


I would agree with you that Roy is more Good and Lawful. He isn't afraid to tell authority figures exactly what he thinks about them, and he eventually has enough of the blood oath. However, he beleives in strong leadership (imagine Belkar and Elan running around unsupervised and you would too) planning and working together to acheive a common goal. He's the person who reigns in Elan and Belkar's more Chaotic impulses and helps hold the group together.

Hmm. I can see your point, and in some ways agree with you.

Let's leave this one here, shall we? the main issue is the Miko thing.

[thereaper]

All right, let's try to put this into a more realistic perspective.

I break into Sam and Jamie's house. Now, I claim that I hate the two of them for such and such reasons. Then I shoot and kill Sam. Then I stop for a moment. Jamie happens to have a gun and shoots me. Do you honestly think that any jury on Earth would convict him of murder?

No, because guess what? Once you kill someone and there's somebody else there that you have already expressed a desire to kill (accusing someone of something and then killing someone else for the same reason definitely qualifies), attacking first becomes self-defense.

Miko had already begun the rationalization process even before Roy attacked her. As she went over her actions, she still referred to Shojo as a traitor. And she wasn't questioning what she had done wrong, she was questioning why the Gods had taken away her powers. Even before she opened her mouth she had taken as a given that she was in the right.

Miko was not frozen because she had an epiphany that what she had done might have been wrong. She was bewildered as to why her powers had disappeared for what she believed had been the right thing to do. There is absolutely no reason to think that she would not have continued her rampage. Remember, she fervently, absolutely believes that these people are evil and that it is the will of the Gods for her to kill them. She even denies the legitimacy of the law before she attacks Shojo.

What Miko was doing could be compared to reloading a gun. Yeah, they're not attacking you now, and technically they're not doing anything that would prove beyond all doubt that they are going to attack you a few seconds from now, but it's enough to convince ANY of us not to give them a chance.

And this doesn't even consider the element of danger involved. A sword in Miko's hand is not like a knife or handgun in the hand of a killer. It's like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. The more dangerous the criminal, the more force you send and the less risks you take. This is why SWAT teams exist and why police officers have guns.

If a guy is being arrested and he suddenly pulls a weapon, cops don't tell him to surrender. They immediately take him down and cuff him (with a lot more force, too, I might add) regardless of whether or not they continue resisting. Once they demonstrate that they are violent, force is required. And the amount of force is proportional to the danger.

Once, again, I go back to the analogy at the beginning of the post. If you had been Jamie, can you honestly say that you wouldn't shoot me? Of course you can't. No one can. Not even the most noble police officer in the world.

Miko was off her rocker. EVERYONE knew it. Miko had killed Shojo and lost her powers. She had been absolutely, totally convinced that she was right. The combination of Shojo's murder and the stated crime for which she was executing him for (which she also claims the OOTS is guilty of) constitutes a threat to their lives. There is just as much evidence that she would snap out of that funk and continue attacking as there is that she would suddenly see the light. However, we do know for a fact what she had been like before that and how open to change and admitting wrongdoing she is. It's quite clear that the odds are stacked against her suddenly changing her mind based on something that a few more seconds of rationalization could do away with (in fact, she does rationalize it all a few seconds later when she says that by killing Roy she will prove to the Gods that she has been doing their will all along [which is technically heresy, as she's saying that the Gods have made a mistake in stripping her of her powers and that she will prove that she was right and they were wrong]).

[Renx]

I thought the main point here was whether Roy is getting in his afterlife of choice or not.

But let's summarize the facts of Miko:

Miko denounced the laws of Azure City, killed a helpless old man with intent, fell from grace, tried to kill a pure paladin, her liege, also in cold blood, and last but not least, stopped the Azure Order from ending the threat of Xykon permanently. All because she knew she was right, and everyone else wrong.

True, she had served the Azure Order well (zealots often rise high in military organizations), and might have been atoned at some point, but she wasn't. She was still a fallen paladin, and whether or not she was insane while committing the acts leading to and from her fall has little meaning here. Oh yes, she's burning in the Abyss.

You don't see the Celestial Clerk questioning Roy about the dozens or hundreds of evil humans and metahumans he's killed, do you? So why would they care about a former paladin, now chew toy?

[Suraht]

Let's stretch the analogy a bit further.

Let's say that I'm a special agent for the US government, and am given authority to reasonably deal with threats to national security. I have a fairly broad range of power that I'm given, but I'm constantly being monitored by a group of superiors to try to ensure that I maintain a vague set of standards that they set, and if I fail to meet those standards, my authority to act in the government's name is immediately revoked, and the standard issued uniform I wear comes with a built-in, remote activated taser to stun me and try to stop me from doing further damage if I go rogue. I also have a reputation for being very temperamental and being far too fast to pull out my sidearm to resolve a situation.

Now, let's say that I walked into the oval office while the president was meeting with a band of foreign special forces(that I've previously had poor dealings with and have seen acting in ways that I deem potentially harmful to national security, and have a strong distrust of already), and caught the tail end of a conversation where the president speaks of sending them on a recon mission in a non-enemy state, and to make sure that no one else is to find out what they learn on this mission, and then to further find out that this black ops squad's earlier trial was a complete sham, and that they are free because the president hand picked a judge and jury from a pool of people that would gain massive profits through being able to spy on the aforementioned enemy state.

So, I've just seen the president risk turning a non-enemy state into an enemy state, subvert the judicial process, and thus make the laws that he's been partially responsible for creating and upholding into little more than a joke. In my eyes, the leader has just committed high treason, and has probably been committing treason for a good, long, while. The punishment for treason is, of course, death if he is convicted of the crime, but I've just heard that he has the power to rig the trial so that he can get the result he wants, so I think imprisoning him to await a trial is pointless. The only course of action I can see as being viable is to eliminate the traitor here and now. So, I advance on the president, reading him the list of charges I accuse him of, tell him that the only laws that matter are the ones I believe in since the ones he's held watch over are suspect, and pull out my gun and kill the president, thinking that I have just made the US safe.

However, my superiors have a much broader view of everything, and know that the situation is not entirely as I perceive it, and they've just seen me gun down a mostly defenseless person. They issue an order to stand down and surrender over my radio, and hit me with the taser, causing me to fall, and drop my gun. I'm a bit stunned, but manage to recover, but I don't know what's going on due to being confused...I just saved the country, but I'm being placed under arrest. I look down and see the gun I've been using to keep the country safe from harm for as long as I can remember laying at my feet, and I bend down to pick it up, and hold it loosely in my hand, staring at it with a semi-focused gaze and mumbling about trying to figure out the truth.

Now, to look at it from the foreign black ops team's perspective. They've just seen the national security agent that's done nothing but give them grief since the moment they ran into each other walk into the room, read the president the riot act, shoot the president, get tasered with orders to stand down, only to stand up and rearm himself with a dazed look on his face, mumbling to himself.

I have a hard time believing that they would waste any time whatsoever in trying to turn that gunman into a non-threat before he returns to his senses enough to fire off a second shot. After all, in their minds, what are the odds that someone that just a few moments ago held enough conviction to believe themselves worthy of being judge, jury, and executioner would be dissuaded from that belief because a superior tells them they aren't, even in as harsh a method as was used? Is it worth a second life to find out, and if someone chooses to stand by and do nothing until an assassin takes a second life even if they are perfectly capable of deterring that assassin from doing so, where would they fall on the alignment chart?

[Khanderas]

OH, lord this is funny. It reminds me of some of the people I know at college. They're such caracitures of various political views that you think they must be doing it JUST to tick people off. No reasoning. Responses that are circular logic.

Seriously, I can't help but wonder if Tower is doing this just to keep the conversation going.

Either way, I'm betitng Belkar is going to be the biggest black mark or white mark for him, depending.

WHite, you ask? Simple

"We noticed you have managed to turn a force of pure destruction into a tool. WHile we do not approve of your not turining him into the authorities, the fact is that while under your guidance, the majority of his kills have been of evil creatures, ususally with some amount of legal justification. Much better than his origional history of killing anyone and everyone. And much better than a summary execution for crimes you couldn't prove, or the mere existance of a negative alighnment."
Im with you on that one. I know one guy who was JUST like that. No matter what opinion you stated with him nearby, he had the opposite to debate. One time I stated that X was true (dont remember exactly what, been a few years) and he was on me like a door to door evangelist how Y was the right thing. A week later I mentioned Y was a good thing and I got roped into a 20 minute session about the virtues of X. Not once in the 3 years I had him as a student housing neighbour did he agree with me on something I specified before him. That guy loved to debate.
Amusing read, problebly why its not locked yet.

Intresting take on the Belkar issue there. Could happen.

[SmartAlec]

Even if I were to agree, it means that he was instead toying with and abusing her. No matter what frustrations he was feeling, that's still inexcusable.

'Abusing' is a pretty loaded word to use when dealing with a duel between two reasonably well-matched opponents.

The only things that seperate them are a +5 greatsword, Roy's bonus Greatsword feats and - possibly - the will of the Gods. Miko's Paladin powers, though useful, don't affect actual combat all that much against a non-evil person.

If you refer to Roy's comments, I think it a ridiculous double-standard that Miko is given the leeway to be emotionally vulnerable and disturbed after committing murder, but Roy is given no leeway to be furious and morally outraged after seeing a man murdered.

Just because Miko's powers have been stripped does not mean she should not suffer the earthly consequences of her crime, and these do - nay, should - involve being made an object of derision in the eyes of all. So Roy's banter hurt her chances for Atonement? Well, Atonement's supposed to be Hard, and if one fighter's in-combat insults are the things that put you beyond redemption, you didn't have much of a chance to begn with.

Edit - thinking about it, it does seem right that Eugene is wrong and that Roy can pass to the afterlife. Why? Because it gives him the chance to say, in true heroic fashion, 'No - I'm not ready for paradise, because my work is left undone.'

[Milandros]

Miko debates again?

Sigh.

I still think the funniest thing would be if Miko had removed his hat of diguise to reveal that he was, in fact, a pot-bellied short man with a straggly beard and a couple of missing teeth, who wore the hat in order to get improved reaction checks.

All of a sudden I think a lot of the "Oh noes! Roy made a sexual insult to poor, abused, darling Miko!" stuff would disappear. Miko being a reactionary bigoted, judgemental ugly man? No support. Miko a reactionary bigoted judgemental hot kung-fu chick? Plenty of support.

[Saph]

I'm starting to think Milandros has a point.

I mean, this is ridiculous. Roy has probably killed enough humanoids in his adventuring career to fill the Black Hole of Calcutta. Yet out of all the things people could come up with to accuse him of, the one that gets the most attention is "He called Miko nasty names and beat her unconscious after she murdered Shojo!" Honestly, if taking down Miko really was the worst deed he'd done in his entire life - meaning that everything else he'd done was better - he'd be being judged for Exalted status. Good would be so obvious it wouldn't even be worth considering.

- Saph

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Miko debates again?

Sigh.

I still think the funniest thing would be if Miko had removed his hat of diguise to reveal that he was, in fact, a pot-bellied short man with a straggly beard and a couple of missing teeth, who wore the hat in order to get improved reaction checks.

All of a sudden I think a lot of the "Oh noes! Roy made a sexual insult to poor, abused, darling Miko!" stuff would disappear. Miko being a reactionary bigoted, judgemental ugly man? No support. Miko a reactionary bigoted judgemental hot kung-fu chick? Plenty of support.

Miko debates will continue until the final strip, and beyond. As long as Rich is paying the bill for the server, there will be Miko fanboyz (and fangirlz) and Miko Haterz.

Unless Rich introduces a character more controversial than Miko! :smalleek:

[Querzis]

Miko debates will continue until the final strip, and beyond. As long as Rich is paying the bill for the server, there will be Miko fanboyz (and fangirlz) and Miko Haterz.

Unless Rich introduces a character more controversial than Miko! :smalleek:

I barely see what could be more controversial then a character with the worst personnality possible but hotter then any other character...though the Giant as a way better imagination then mine so its possible :eek:

[turkishproverb]

Im with you on that one. I know one guy who was JUST like that. No matter what opinion you stated with him nearby, he had the opposite to debate. One time I stated that X was true (dont remember exactly what, been a few years) and he was on me like a door to door evangelist how Y was the right thing. A week later I mentioned Y was a good thing and I got roped into a 20 minute session about the virtues of X. Not once in the 3 years I had him as a student housing neighbour did he agree with me on something I specified before him. That guy loved to debate.
Amusing read, problebly why its not locked yet.

Intresting take on the Belkar issue there. Could happen.


Thanks.

I actually had even mroe typed out, including
"INdeed, the amount of times "Belkar" has been listed as the cause of death on our paperwork since his meeting you has lowered slightly, and the amount of Good or lawful characters with it in their papers dropped dramatically."


honestly, though, I want to see a bunch of hobgoblins in a line, checking off "Belkar" as the reason for death on their paperwork. And an exasperated building full of caseworkers handling it all.

[Kreistor]

2; She killed Shojo, but obviously felt justified. We can see the justification (even though we know it to be false) Than her gods immedietly made her fall from grace... She didn't expect that. She was in shock untill Roy attacked. If he hadn't, I'd give good odds she'd go quietly.

Most murderers believe they are justified. If self-justification affected the good or evil of an act, then there would be no evil in the world.

[Vulion]

Does anybody else think this debate has gone just the tiniest bit off-topic?

[Frosty]

Just a thought: I would've done exactly what Roy did. Think about it from this perspective

Think of Roy is not a policeman. Think of him as someone who just lost a friend/ally/colleague which Roy considers important. If YOU just witnessed someone murdering a friend, wouldn't you attack that person? I know I would, and I wouldn't consider it evil in the least, especially given what we know about Miko's tendencies..

[Impikmin]

I always believed that Roy was too hard on himself, and his sarcasm and stuff reminds him of me sometimes.

[Lord]

Does anybody else think this debate has gone just the tiniest bit off-topic?

Yup, its like one of those good news bad news jokes. The good news is that my thread has over a hundred posts. The bad news is they are all off topic.

[tainsouvra]

Yup, its like one of those good news bad news jokes. The good news is that my thread has over a hundred posts. The bad news is they are all off topic. I can taste key lime pie.

Also, I agree with the OP, I think that Roy not getting at least a small surprise somewhere would be a waste of a good dramatic opportunity. Elan would cry.

[David Argall]

Now the basic to consider here is that A-Roy rejects any plea of self defense. He gives us his reason, his only reason, punishment for a crime he is neither legally nor morally authorized to punish her for.
B-Nor does his conduct allow a plea of self defense. He attacks someone who is not an immediate threat. Then when she retreats, he not only follows, he orders Belkar, someone he is allegedly defending into a position of danger.



So Roy's doing too much to stop Miko, except when he's not doing enough?
You compare apples and oranges here. Roy had a right of "self" defense when Shojo was under immediate threat. If he could have moved fast enough, he would be justified in attacking Miko to protect Shojo.
Once that immediate opportunity is gone, it is gone. He no longer has a self defense plea until Miko attacks Hinjo, putting him under immediate threat.



I'm talking about her killing anything that Detects Evil. Strip 228.
This strip does not say that. She says those she killed were all evil, not that she killed all that were evil.
To use some fantasy math, if she killed half of those she detected as evil, she would still say that all those she killed were evil. But there would be a large number of evil survivors.
And this would be a common situation for paladins by most judges. The paladin may not kill just for being evil, but there are a large number of crimes where one might spare a non-evil in the hope of better behavior in the future, but the evil might as well be eliminated.



Roy attacked Miko. The results were, no one died, Miko included. How could this have been improved upon?
We have two very badly wounded individuals. And Roy was just lucky. Two or three were in danger of dying and it is pretty much just plot that saved their lives. If Roy had done nothing, or merely summoned the guards that have to be only a room away, the base chance of her just standing there catonic are quite reasonable.



You can clearly see that everyone was stunned when the depowering occurred. Next round Roy took a five foot step and attacked.
Given we have 6 panels, mostly of extensive conversation, saying that was the next round is the Roy attack is at least challengable. Of course, the comic does not follow rounds that closely, but it is easier to think Roy, etc spend a round talking.



Roy should not have attacked her at all, or should have attacked her immediately.
Right, because conditions had changed. He would have been defending Shojo, but when that was no longer possible, he no longer had the justification to attack.



Actually, the real quote doesn't mention the fact that he's mad at all.
You wish to claim he was not mad? That is not good for Roy. Excess anger is not deemed a good excuse for poor behavior, but it at least supplies a little amelioration.



moving Roy's "Lawful Good" goalpost all the way to Paladin level just takes the cake. Besides, there are multiple levels of Lawful Good behavior for Paladins as well, ranging from the Very Good (and somewhat lawful) to the Very Lawful (and somewhat good.)
But we still get the ruling that Roy could have behaved better.



AND picked up her sword again, and has a known habit of slicing first and possibly asking questions later.
Not really. Her routine behavior is to give lots of warning that she is about to strike. She warned the party, the ogres, the party again, Shojo, Belker, Hinjo, the Gate... The warnings are often more easily recognized in retrospect, but attacking without any warning has just not been her style.



And he hasn't asked enemies to surrender for the past 406 strips,
See 356 for one case where he did. 355 and 363 seem quite possible.




Touche. I'll just have to go with the fact that Greatswords don't normally go *POW*
This is a comic. Swords, and everything else, go whatever is dramatic.



Guilty until proven innocent?
Or innocent until proven guilty if you think that nonlethal damage in such a situation is a worse tactic than lethal damage or doing nothing at all. As near as I can see, nonlethal damage offered the option of being morally in the wrong and being ineffective.



He dropped her on the first hit, which coincidentally hit. If he was using a full attack, even if the first one missed, he has several other opportunities.
Technically, but the 2nd swing is -5 and the 3rd -10. Barring a special feat, if he misses the 1st swing, he has a very high chance of missing the others as well. If he is PA maxing as the picture suggests, he may well need a 20 on both of these swings.



You know I'm referring to the regicide attack a few rounds ago, the one that makes Miko dangerous.
Of course. But the point still applies. Any given killing, of king or peasant, does not create a permanent state of threat. To use a strip example, the assassins after the king were not dangerous to a whore who happened to be in the way, or even to a bunch of innocent bystanders when they themselves were under threat. We have a Miko that is currently just standing around, paying no attention to Roy. Legally, she does not constitute a threat to him that justifies attack.

Miko's initial attitude was "Unfriendly". Hinjo tried a Diplomacy roll, and Miko wound up attacking him. That means the adjusted value was below 5. To get Miko to surrender, it would have needed to go up to at least Friendly, which is a DC 25. Even if we do indifferent, it's stil DC 15.



Are you saying that Roy's attack is sufficient to inflict a MINUS ELEVEN penalty on Hinjo's diplomacy check?
Now to start with, 3.5 diplomacy rules are rather poor. So there is no serious reason to think they are being used here. But under them, Diplomacy is a class skill for Hinjo, who likely has a quite good charisma bonus as well. [Given how much everyone likes him, 18 is not out of the question.] Unless we assume a quite large penalty from Roy's attack, Hinjo can't get under 5 on his roll. About the only reason for not thinking it would be -11 is that there is a strong bias to awarding penalties at even numbers or by factors of 5, which means that -10, -12, & -15 are more likely than -11.



He's a Paladin, so when he says that [in his opinion] Roy didn't do anything wrong, it can't be a lie.
It can be mistaken, or otherwise wrong. And as one individual required to tell the truth said "Just because I have to tell the truth doesn't mean I have to be honest."



The dictionary disagrees.
Your dictionary disagrees, possibly because it is a simplification of the language and can't cover all meanings of words. [Actually no dictionary can. There are just too many words, each of which has too many meanings.]



Which Miko was. You don't need to be 100% sure that someone is a threat before you attack. There's a point where you're reasonably sure, the risk is high enough that you make a calculated decision to proceed.
http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/general-4.htm
‘About to’ refers to the imminence requirement for the right to self-defense. It is not enough that the assailant threatens to use force in the future, or upon the happening of a certain event. Thus the statement "If you do that one more time, I’ll punch you" is insufficient to trigger the right to self-defense. The threatened use of force must be immediate.

Even an initial aggressor may be given the right to self-defense under certain circumstances. If the initial aggressor withdraws from the confrontation, and communicates this withdrawal to the other party, he regains the right to self-defense.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html
There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/martial_arts/110256/3
The key word is "immediate." If a guy takes a swing at you, you can block it and counter punch. If it stuns him, you must stop and back away, even if he's still snarling and yelling that you're a dead man and it's obvious he's going to take another swing at you once he figures out where you are.

http://www.njlaws.com/self-defense.htm
A person may use force against another person if he reasonably believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person.

http://www.bigbearacademy.com/self-defense-law.html
The concept of "pre-emptive" self defense is considered dubious due to common misconception of the act as murdering a person believed to someday attack with lethal force. Realistic "pre-emptive" self defense is simply the act of landing the first-blow in a situation that has reached a point of no hope for de-escalation or escape.

In other words, Roy's situation does not qualify for self defense.



I break into Sam and Jamie's house. Now, I claim that I hate the two of them for such and such reasons. Then I shoot and kill Sam. Then I stop for a moment. Jamie happens to have a gun and shoots me. Do you honestly think that any jury on Earth would convict him of murder?

See the sources above. Yes, he can be convicted.

He can draw his gun and aim at the killer, demanding he drop his piece, but he can't shoot until it becomes clear there is no alternative.
Now we can note that Roy is in a worse legal state. A gun is a weapon that can be used at a distance. The peril is thus present at a distance. Miko has a sword, which means she is harmless until she gets close. Immediate threat is thus that much further away.



I think it a ridiculous double-standard that Miko is given the leeway to be emotionally vulnerable and disturbed after committing murder, but Roy is given no leeway to be furious and morally outraged after seeing a man murdered.
Miko is not given any leeway here. Her emotional condition after the killing is simply evidence that she does not qualify as an immediate threat, which is necessary if a plea of self defense was entered. Roy is allowed to be furious and/or morally outraged all he wants. He is not allowed to attack anyone, guilty or not, as a result.



Think of Roy is not a policeman. Think of him as someone who just lost a friend/ally/colleague which Roy considers important. If YOU just witnessed someone murdering a friend, wouldn't you attack that person? I know I would, and I wouldn't consider it evil in the least,
And you could go to jail as a result. Revenge is not considered a legal motive for killing someone.

[Demented]

I barely see what could be more controversial then a character with the worst personnality possible but hotter then any other character...though the Giant as a way better imagination then mine so its possible :eek:

Honestly... Good-aligned orphan hot asian paladin chick with bad attitude and sword proficiency? I really can't think of what could be more controversial... Oh, of course! Two of them! In the same bed.
She's not just controversial, she's got an excuse for everything she does.

We could do better than even that, I'm sure... But knowing what happened after this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0381.html) strip came out, I don't think this forum could handle it.

[thereaper]

And if he hadn't shot immediately and I was faster or more accurate, then I'd kill him, either to finish what I came to do or out of fear that he'd shoot me first. Yeah, justice was really at work there. I go, kill a guy, threaten his buddy, and he is legally prohibited from saving himself without putting himself in more danger. Yep, that's justice all right.


‘About to’ refers to the imminence requirement for the right to self-defense. It is not enough that the assailant threatens to use force in the future, or upon the happening of a certain event. Thus the statement "If you do that one more time, I’ll punch you" is insufficient to trigger the right to self-defense. The threatened use of force must be immediate.

Even an initial aggressor may be given the right to self-defense under certain circumstances. If the initial aggressor withdraws from the confrontation, and communicates this withdrawal to the other party, he regains the right to self-defense.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...f_defense.html
There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary


The first paragraph here and the third contradict one another. The third paragraph says that you must reasonably believe the person is about to attack, which is exactly what I've been arguing (there is no reason for Miko to pick up her weapon other than to continue killing).

Now, the first paragraph refers to imminancy. One problem though. Thanks to a little thing called the uncertainty principle it is literally impossible to be absolutely sure one is going to do something. Even if they want to, their weapon might just quantum tunnel through you. You're arguing that it must be absolutely certain the the attacker will attack. This is impossible. You're basically saying that police officers are not allowed to ever shoot for any reason, because it is impossible for them to know for certain that the suspect will kill again. The only way one can ever know for certain is after the fact, and as you claim, once the person has been killed the threat is gone. In fact, even that isn't certain because it's always possible that the police were hallucinating or that the photons themselves were quantum tunneling in such a way so as to make light bounce into their eyes to form a picture that was not there. Yeah, the odds are infinitesimally small. But it is possible. And you're saying that as long as there is any doubt whatsoever, then killing the attacker is not justifiable. This amounts to saying that there is no such thing as self-defense, because it is never possible to know for sure that one is going to attack. It simply comes down to the fact that the risk is too great. This is why courts use the term "reasonable doubt" rather than simply "doubt". It is not reasonable to assume that Miko was not going to try to kill them.

I should also note that stress tends to make people more likely to respond aggressively. Miko's emotional turmoil (which I already pointed out was being rationalized away at that very moment) is an indication of even greater instability and danger.

[Shatteredtower]

Miko being a reactionary bigoted, judgemental ugly man? No support. Miko a reactionary bigoted judgemental hot kung-fu chick? Plenty of support.Miko's a stick figure. Your accusation is without basis and entirely off topic.

The issue is not whether Miko was wrong. She was. The issue is whether Roy was out of line -- and he was.

My motives for posting are also not an acceptable subject for these forums. They are never on topic.

[Shatteredtower]

So you admit you have no argument.Another strawman. I made my position clear. You made yours clear. I remain unconvinced. You may either bring in more evidence, or accept that there's no progress to be made on that point.

Or you could go with just having the last word on this particular subject. Pretend you've won, if you'd like.


Also, her full attack only dealt minor damage.Yes, like how speed lines must be present if a character is charging?

But hey, maybe it's true. Of course, it would mean that Roy was limiting himself to one attack per round (if we're to go strictly by what we see), which puts a lie to claims that his goal was to put a stop to a threat. Maybe all that patter takes him a move action to complete.


The Giant never said if his fight description was cannon. The post specifically said "or it could have just been plot railroading."And the story said Miko won. Either way works.


IF you're saying there's no proof either way, that in no means indicates that you're right.When I've made a mistake, I've admitted it. I demonstrate the error in asserting that "No speed lines = no charge," and the response is an attempt to twist it around instead. Yeah, not impressed..

My point was that you hadn't accounted for all of the damage bonuses Roy had available for him in that one attack, not that he had to have been charging. Of course, if he hadn't been charging, he wasn't putting everything into his attack, which would have been reckless, considering the fact that he was trying to save Hinjo's life. So either he was doing his best and charging, or he was gambling more than he should have when a life at stake. Which is it? If I believed that Roy's goal was to put down a threat, I'd think he'd charge. I don't believe that was his goal, but I still can't see why he wouldn't try to get the most he could out of that last swing.


So Roy's doing too much to stop Miko, except when he's not doing enough?Clearly, Roy's initial attack was doing too much to stop Miko. The attack was unnecessary and reduced the hope of several preferable resolutions from having any chance -- unless all that matters is not whether Roy is right or wrong, but that Miko is getting a beating. Now that Hinjo's life actually is on the line, however, if Roy's not charging, he's not doing all he can to save Hinjo.

They are two separate, though connected, scenarios.


But Roy only had one small scratch on him. It could have been that Miko rolled very bad for damage, or simply because, when hitting a stationary unresisting sitting target, she could afford to dump her entire BAB into Power Attack.That is indeed a possibility, which would make a difference of 32 points out of 45, assuming she didn't attempt to use Power attack against Roy. That would still leave an average of 13 per hit -- enough to leave Roy standing at the end of her fourth attack, but not enough to make it through another set of attacks. So, in a best case scenario involving Miko continuing her attack, Roy wins if he hits with the only attack roll he gets before she'd finish him off -- or if she misses a few attacks in turn. Hell of a gamble on Roy's part.


If as you said Hinjo wanted Miko alive, but he could not afford to deal lethal damage, he would have asked Roy to help him Yes, he could have. Silly of him to agree to a personal duel, really. And yes, that does appear to be what he'd done, seeing that he didn't call for Roy's help.


The Paladins vs. Xykon scene shows that mandatory one vs. ones are not part of their code of honor.Hinjo's consent to duel Miko in silence says otherwise. He wasn't required to fight her alone, but he clearly agreed to do so on her terms.


Contradictory. He wants to be a defender, so he doesn't attack, which forces him to deal lethal instead of non-lethal damage?Hey, don't blame me for the rules. With a -8 or worse penalty on his attack rolls, there's no choice but to lose. If he was going to win, he had the choice between doing nonlethal damage and hoping to avoid going down too quickly or doing lethal damage but making it harder for her to hurt him. Bad strategy, unless there was the chance of tiring her out (apparently not).

But let's say that he didn't make nonlethal attacks or try to fight defensively. Is he not justified in changing his mind now that he really does need to defend himself? He obviously didn't need to do so before she struck him. I believe he was fighting defensively simply because of how poorly he faired in his own attacks, but sure, that's speculation. I'm giving Hinjo the benefit of the doubt, despite the fact that no matter what he was doing there, he'd obviously made a mistake in trying to engage Miko in a one-on-one contest of arms.


No, I'm talking about her killing anything that Detects Evil. Strip 228.What does this argument have to do with what I posted. I noted that Miko does indeed do as you say. I also noted when she didn't limit herself to that restriction in the past. But sure, let's limit the issue to only her attacking anything that detects as evil.

So what? Do we know that she killed every creature she detected? I think it's a good possibility, but we don't know that. We do know that she makes very limited use of the ability, however. She never checked Samantha, for example.


So both of them were in danger of being killed.Belkar was in danger of eventually being killed by any paladin that discovered he was free and evil. Roy doesn't go after them because there is no immediate danger -- and there's a chance that such conflicts could be resolved by better means.

The fact that it's personal for both him and Miko makes no difference.


Yeah, he should have waited until Miko ACTUALLY killed someone before he attacked.You keep using this strawman, but I will repeat myself: If Roy had readied an action to attack if Miko made an offensive move while attempting to convince her to surrender herself and her weapon, he would have been no worse off than he was by attacking her. To be perfectly clear, he'd have been better off, because then Hinjo would have been coming to his aid, rather than trying to deal with Miko himself.


Actually, what he SHOULD have done was charge Miko as soon as he saw her draw her sword against Shojo. He was pretty close, he might have made it.I have already stated that that would have been acceptable. It's not what happened, however.


LISTEN to yourself. "I was going to surrender quietly, but since I was punched in the face, I think I'll kill the *Executive head of state* instead!" How is that even remotely plausible?The quote is another strawman. As both myself and Mr. Argall have stated several times before this, Miko had no excuse for attacking Hinjo. That does not change the fact that Roy's conduct made that both more likely to occur and more likely to prevent cooperation between him and Hinjo.


Well, of course he felt it was justified. I also think it's justified.You feel that Roy was justified in beating someone regardless of the consequences to everyone else present? That is included in the meaning of the words, "consequences be damned."

And if that is what you mean, I'm waiting for a good explanation why that shouldn't count as a black mark on Roy's record.


What are you talking about?Not including Strength modifier, a greatclub does 1d10 in Roy's hands, for an average of 5.5 hp of damage, while a +5 greatsword, a weapon for which he has Weapon Specialization, does 2d6 + 7 hp of damage, for an average of 14 -- a difference of 8.5 hp of damage per successful attack.

If a -4 penalty to hit doesn't matter, show how it's not inconsistent to argue that a +8.5 bonus to damage does.


Roy attacked Miko. The results were, no one died, Miko included.Lawful good creatures are notoriously unimpressed by "The ends justify the means," arguments like this one.


How could this have been improved upon?Readied action to attack if an offensive move is made and some kind of effort to try to settle things without further violence. No one has shown why this wouldn't work, nor refuted the observation that, if Miko had then attacked, Roy could have then counted on Hinjo's martial support. How is that anything other than a huge improvement on Roy's approach?


You can clearly see that everyone was stunned when the depowering occurred. Next round Roy took a five foot step and attacked.Meaning Roy was treating a different situation as though it was not a different situation -- even if it was truly next round.


I find it amusing that now you're saying that Roy couldn't kick Miko's ass fast enough.Not based on how quickly things went downhill in the first fight, how thoroughly they went down in the second (without weather or a broken arm as factors), and how long this fight with Roy by himself had already run.


Roy should not have attacked her at all, or should have attacked her immediately.There is not contradiction. Attacking her immediately would be dealing with an immediate threat (someone actually making offensive motions) and might have spelled the difference between Shojo living and dying. (Doubtful, but it would be an acceptable factor.)
Once the moment is missed and the opponent is no longer offering an immediate threat, Roy should not have attacked at all.

They are not identical situations.


He's irresponsible for dealing non-lethal damage...Strawman after strawman.


...isn't Roy a meanie attacking that poor confused lady.The ends did not justify the means.


Actually, the real quote doesn't mention the fact that he's mad at all.His expression and choice of words make that perfectly clear.

[Shatteredtower]

(there is no reason for Miko to pick up her weapon other than to continue killing)Sure there is. Self defense. A symbolic effort to pull herself together, or grabbing her stuff before fleeing in shame.


(Now, the first paragraph refers to imminancy. One problem though. Thanks to a little thing called the uncertainty principle it is literally impossible to be absolutely sure one is going to do something.Please stop using this copout. You are not morally justified in attacking people for making an offensive move against you unless it actually looks like they're going to do it.

[Demented]

Sure there is. Self defense. A symbolic effort to pull herself together, or grabbing her stuff before fleeing in shame.

Self defense IS killing stuff. At least, in every example involving Miko it is. =P
And dont' forget "force of habit". Bet her hand feels empty without a sword in it...

[Shatteredtower]

Self defense IS killing stuff.No, it's not. Not even in Miko's case.


And dont' forget "force of habit".That is indeed another possibility other than grabbing the sword to kill.


Bet her hand feels empty without a sword in it...If that were the case, its odd that she'd keep it sheathed through the first seven of nine lines of accusations levelled here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html). Nor do we ever see it drawn here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html) or here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) -- although we do know she'd done so between the penultimate and final rows of the latter strip, she still waited for Roy to finish his series of declarations.

And despite cause for suspicion, her sword is never out while she attempts to detect evil here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) or
here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0208.html) or here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html). (Maybe she was intending to attack him with that spoon in the last strip?) It's out in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html), but that's hardly suprising, since she's hunting a guy who killed a guard, then assaulted her with daggers and fire. I enjoyed Belkar's antics in that fight, but his actions were not justified. (One could argue that killing a guard to escape a sentence of execution might be excusable, but painting the walls with his blood and setting an ambush for another guard, rather than trying to flee, is not.)

Even if she always had the sword out, however, and had not picked it up after her fall with the intention of sheathing it (not that I think she was thinking that far ahead at the moment), it wouldn't have any relevance to Roy's conduct.

[Roderick_BR]

I'm quite surprised to see people arguing that Roy was wrong in attacking Miko.
On one hand, Miko was an immedate threat to everyone around her.
On the other hand, Roy could have tried to subdue her or try to convince her to surrender when she was stunned (not D&D Stunned stats ailment).
I'd say that while not the best option, Roy reacted as a human being and snapped, doing what he though was best: Take down a threat that not only killed an unarmed old guy, but also murdered one of the few authorities actively trying to save the world, AND she was already off to kill every other person that worked with him, namely, Roy and his group.
It was, at best, a lawful neutral act. Not enough to push his alignment down.

Now, for Belkar.... XD
The only thing Roy can use in his favor, is that he kept Belkar on his group to protect the rest of the world :smallamused:

[Ladorak]

I barely see what could be more controversial then a character with the worst personnality possible but hotter then any other character...though the Giant as a way better imagination then mine so its possible :eek:

It is understanding that currently there is an Arab in the WWF who wears a turban while he fights and yells ‘Allah Akbar’ when he elbow drops someone. This is (I believe) more controversial than anything Rich could come up with. Which suggests to me that the key to being controversial is not imagination but a sad absence of it…

And seriously people, I liked Miko too, but it's a little unrealistic to argue Roy should've let her go after committing murder. I feel sorry for her too but all evil has a price, I believe Miko has only just started to pay that price, and since we're talking murder it's a heavy price indeed.

[JanessaVR]

I tell you, this why I never play Lawful Stupid...I mean Lawful Good. Chaotic Neutral really does mean not having to say you're sorry. :-)

Honestly, if this were at my group's gaming table, I'd have killed Miko LONG before this big scene that's apparently oh so controversial here; of course, I also serve as my party's assassin when needed. But at any rate, my entire gaming group would have JOINED me in Miko's case - she was a Grade A pyscho deranged lunatic and religious fanatic to boot. And there wouldn't have been any 6 PAGES LONG legal/moral/philosophical debate about it, either. Talk about a HUGE waste of time...

[Ampersand]

And there wouldn't have been any 6 PAGES LONG legal/moral/philosophical debate about it, either. Talk about a HUGE waste of time...

If you thought it was a waste of time, why did you read and post in this thread?

And...ah...message board? The entire point of this entire place is to be a waste of time.

[....]

Here's how Roy will be judged for hurting poor little Miko (assuming it even comes up):

"Hmm, you attacked a fallen paladin who had just murdered a friend of your before your eyes. Well, this is for that-" *slaps Roy lightly across the back of the hand* "Now lets move on to how you died trying to save the world..."

[Shatteredtower]

On one hand, Miko was an immedate threat to everyone around her.No, she wasn't.


I'd say that while not the best option, Roy reacted as a human being and snapped, doing what he though was best: Take down a threat that not only killed an unarmed old guy, but also murdered one of the few authorities actively trying to save the world, AND she was already off to kill every other person that worked with him, namely, Roy and his group.Miko did what she thought was best too. As we all know, she was very clearly wrong.

If the argument, "I did what I thought was best," doesn't excuse Miko, it doesn't excuse Roy either, not when it's clear that he wasn't acting in anyone's best interests.


And seriously people, I liked Miko too, but it's a little unrealistic to argue Roy should've let her go after committing murder.No one argued that Roy should have let Miko go. Readying an action to attack her if she takes another offensive move while calling for her to give herself up is not letting her go.

[Shatteredtower]

Here's how Roy will be judged for hurting poor little Miko (assuming it even comes up):

"Hmm, you attacked a fallen paladin who had just murdered a friend of your before your eyes. Well, this is for that-" *slaps Roy lightly across the back of the hand* "Now lets move on to how you died trying to save the world..."You mean, "Now about this case of sexual harassment..."

No, I'm not overstating the case. Sexual harrassment includes saying or doing something of a sexual nature (making sexual suggestions) that Roy knows (or ought to know) Miko will not welcome.

Anyone dare to claim she had that coming?

[Ampersand]

"Now lets move on to how you died trying to save the world..."

Died saving the world? Are you joking? Roy's death will probably go on record as one of the most idiotic and wasteful that the Celestial Realms have ever seen.

I mean he went after an epic level lich, completely alone, with no plan, no thought for how he was going to get off the undead dragon, just his own arrogant assumption that he'd be able to handle anything Xykon threw at him because...well, he never really gave a reason.

Roy didn't die saving the world. He committed suicide.

[....]

Died saving the world? Are you joking? Roy's death will probably go on record as one of the most idiotic and wasteful that the Celestial Realms have ever seen.

I mean he went after an epic level lich, completely alone, with no plan, no thought for how he was going to get off the undead dragon, just his own arrogant assumption that he'd be able to handle anything Xykon threw at him because...well, he never really gave a reason.

Roy didn't die saving the world. He committed suicide.

Died trying to save the world.

Miko died by weakening the fabric of reality.

Hmmmmm.

[Vulion]

Died saving the world? Are you joking? Roy's death will probably go on record as one of the most idiotic and wasteful that the Celestial Realms have ever seen.

I mean he went after an epic level lich, completely alone, with no plan, no thought for how he was going to get off the undead dragon, just his own arrogant assumption that he'd be able to handle anything Xykon threw at him because...well, he never really gave a reason.

Roy didn't die saving the world. He committed suicide.

Isn't that just the tiniest bit harsh on the guy? I mean "the most idiotic and wasteful"? You'd think he died trying to fight a snail, had a critical miss, had the blade bounce off the ground when he tried to strike said snail and imbed itself in his head.

While I admit that Roy may have been a little foolhardy, he did what he though was right. It was either fight with a weapon that you knew would be harmful to undead and possible the only weapon could do real damage to Xykon or let the Lich fly over them all. I think he just could let the latter happen without trying.

[Ampersand]

Died trying to save the world.

The sheer idiocy of his actions and the subsequent loses incurred by not having him on the field of battle (not to mention the distraction and splitting of his comrades his death caused) more than negates any consideration he might have had for his intentions.


Miko died by weakening the fabric of reality.

What does the way Miko died have to do with the way Roy died? It's completely irrelevant.


Isn't that just the tiniest bit harsh on the guy?

Possibly. But given that Roy likes to cite his intellect and sense as two of his most valuable assets and positive character traits, I think I can be justified in judging him harsher when he purposefully takes leaves of both.

[....]

The sheer idiocy of his actions and the subsequent loses incurred by not having him on the field of battle (not to mention the distraction and splitting of his comrades his death caused) more than negates any consideration he might have had for his intentions.

What could he've done to change the fight?

[Vulion]

Are you blaming the lose of the entire battle on Roy's death?

[David Argall]

And if he hadn't shot immediately and I was faster or more accurate, then I'd kill him, either to finish what I came to do or out of fear that he'd shoot me first. Yeah, justice was really at work there. I go, kill a guy, threaten his buddy, and he is legally prohibited from saving himself without putting himself in more danger. Yep, that's justice all right.
You should complain to the lawmakers in government. But the first point is that this is the law. It is flatly illegal to act as Roy did.

But will you actually shoot the 2nd guy? You have discovered there is something major wrong with what you were thinking. That makes continuing with any program questionable, in particular one that may have drastic consequences. So there is a major chance you don't kill him.
Then note we are saying If you are faster and more accurate. That is if. And note we do not say he can't prepare. He is aiming right at you. Just has to fire. You have to effectively turn, draw, aim, and fire. There is clear danger to him, but he is rather clearly odds on favorite. [And in most of the unfavorable situations, he was probably better off trying to bolt out the door and calling the cops instead of wasting time failing to shoot you.]

But say he does shoot you right away. That gives us 2 dead bodies. And now you probably have a friend too. Why is he not a "threat" your friend has the right to kill? We can, and have had, rather endless strings of such killings.
Much better we put a stop to the killing right away while we still have just 1 dead body.


The first paragraph here and the third contradict one another. The third paragraph says that you must reasonably believe the person is about to attack,
Which is another way to say immediately. But even on a more general reading, it does not deny the need for immediacy, so no contradiction occurs.


(there is no reason for Miko to pick up her weapon other than to continue killing).
This is a valuable sword littering the ground.
It belongs in the sheath.
Someone, such as Roy, may be about to attack.
Ritual suicide with a sword is common for a disgraced oriental.
Shall I continue?
The idea is silly. Miko has a host of possible non-lethal reasons for picking up her sword.


Thanks to a little thing called the uncertainty principle it is literally impossible to be absolutely sure one is going to do something.
This cuts both ways. The very concept of self defense is a certainity the other guy is going to hurt you. So your argument voids the plea of self defense.


you're saying that as long as there is any doubt whatsoever, then killing the attacker is not justifiable.
No, but the law correctly says that there had better not be any reasonable doubt.


It is not reasonable to assume that Miko was not going to try to kill them.
You are simply asserting that. Moreover, this is not what is at issue. You need to show it was reasonable to assume Miko was going to attack. Doubt means no attack is justified.
It is reasonable to assume there is a risk. But there are a host of possible actions, and she was taking her time about deciding which one.


I should also note that stress tends to make people more likely to respond aggressively. Miko's emotional turmoil (which I already pointed out was being rationalized away at that very moment) is an indication of even greater instability and danger.
Which is more reason to simply let her alone.



it's a little unrealistic to argue Roy should've let her go after committing murder.
Roy is a visitor to the city and has no right to enforce its laws, which he may not know. Strictly speaking, her behavior could be legal as far as Roy knew. That's distinctly unlikely, but it does mean we reject the idea that he has to do something. There are lots of things he can do that merely make things worse, and attacking Miko probably was one of them.

Miko was making no effort to leave or do much else. Accordingly, simply waiting for Hinjo to take the lead was entirely possible. Alternately, calling for the palace guards, who can't be far away, would have been a reasonable course of action.



Miko was an immedate threat to everyone around her.
How was she an immediate threat? Immediate means now, this round. She may be a threat, but she is just standing there. She is not immediate.

And Roy didn't care. He is simply not interested in self defense. He wants to kick her fallen ass. He advances to the attack. That voids any claim of self defense.

[Ampersand]

What could he've done to change the fight?

Nice try, but I'm not getting into a theoretical he said/she said. Anything I present that Roy could've done in the battle can be countered by other equally plausible scenarios with exactly as much evidence behind them as I would have.

But, as the facts stand, as a direct result of Roy's actions...

1. Roy himself died, and while this is likely only a temporary affliction, for the time being he is unable to influence the Material Plane and will return to it weaker than he was (unless a MacGuffin happens along that lets him return to life without the level loss).

2. Haley and Belkar are trapped in Azure City with no way to receive aid or extraction.
2b. If the pendant Haley is carrying is broken, Celia will be in the same position.

3. Elan, Durkon and Vaarsuivious are leaderless. All three lack initiative, and will likely just go along with what Hinjo says...which may be good, or may be bad. Hinjo has shown himself to not be a "big picture" person (for example, his desire to die in defense of Azure City even after it was obviously a lost cause) and his ability as a leader is questionable.

[thereaper]

My friend wouldn't be in danger because he isn't there, other guy hasn't expressed a desire to kill him, and (perhaps most importantly) the other guy hasn't demonstrated himself to be absolutely crazy. He didn't say "Oh, I am going to kill you two *insert choice word here*!". Furthermore, since his primary reason for shooting me in the first place is in self-defense, there is no reason to think that the friend (who presumably hasn't done anything) would be a target.

Now I don't think you're getting what I'm saying about immediacy. Let's say that after threatening Sam and Jamie and killing Sam, I point a gun at Jamie and he happens to be pointing a gun at me too. Now, most would argue that at this point is there is no reasonable doubt. But he still can't be sure that I'm going to shoot him. Even if we ignore the completely unlikely possibilities (like the gun jamming), there's still the possibility that there aren't any more bullets in the gun or that I'm only trying to keep him from escaping. But if you got into that situation, wouldn't you shoot? Say you later learned that the gun didn't have any bullets left. Would it still have been self-defense? Yes. The point I'm trying to get across is that reasonable doubt only extends until the risk of not attacking pre-emptively becomes too great. Miko was at that point.

Let's look at my reloading analogy again. If I shoot Sam and start reloading, that constitutes a threat to Jamie, because he's the only person around to shoot. Miko killed Shojo, then picked up her sword and began rationalizing. She took as given that she was right to kill Shojo when she said "It all made sense. The Gods showed me his treachery". She took as given that she was right before she even said anything. She was "reloading" herself. Roy knows Miko. He knows how she thinks well enough to know that when she starts rationalizing, she comes to the conclusion that she is right.

And one more thing: we've been talking about this as if Roy was trying to kill Miko. What evidence is there of this? If we're going to assume that killing one person is not an indication that Miko is going to kill someone else, then why is one attack dealing lethal damage on Roy's part an indication that the next one will be? Or the next one? Or the final one (the only one that actually matters)? Based on the Giant's description of the Miko fight, Roy almost defeated her, and only gave up because if he missed the order would likely be killed. He knows roughly how much damage it takes to put Miko down. So why do we give Miko the benefit of the doubt and not Roy? After all, Roy hadn't become psychotic and hadn't killed anyone yet.

[SmartAlec]

The sheer idiocy of his actions and the subsequent loses incurred by not having him on the field of battle (not to mention the distraction and splitting of his comrades his death caused) more than negates any consideration he might have had for his intentions.

Heroes take note: Heroics are only regarded as heroics if they're successful, and even then, only when they're well-planned.

Wait a second - no, they're not.

Frankly, he did what he could. The Order of the Stick were there, on the field of battle, to intercept Xykon. That's what Hinjo asks them to do. The lich goes with a gameplan that no-one expects, so Roy improvises. Sure, you say you won't get into a theoretical discussion about what he COULD have done, but you fail to note that he did his best to do what was ASKED of him.

The unavailability of the party wizard means that Roy only has two options, one of which is 'do not react' - and that is unacceptable. If you're up against the creature or being with a plan to enslave and/or destroy the world, you damn well take every chance you get.

Unfortunately, his improvised solution doesn't take into account some unorthodox tactics on Xykon's part (his emergency flight spell, which was a spell none of the Order had seen him use in the past).

Blaming him and him alone for his death is frankly crazy. It's war, and an adventure to boot. There's no 'right' answer to every problem, and calling him stupid for not finding the answer that isn't there is what they call 'not getting it'. If you think that if Roy hadn't have attacked Xykon, Azure City would have won, then come out and say it. If you think that the result would mostly have been the same, then it was a worthwhile gamble that sadly didn't pay off.


This is a valuable sword littering the ground.
It belongs in the sheath.
Someone, such as Roy, may be about to attack.
Ritual suicide with a sword is common for a disgraced oriental.
Shall I continue?
The idea is silly. Miko has a host of possible non-lethal reasons for picking up her sword.

What you say there illustrates the difficulty of a judgement call. That is what it is to be a leader of adventurers, really; making judgement calls.

Roy's previous judgement call was to stay back, and let Shojo talk his way out of the accusations. He completely underestimated just how unpredictable Miko was, at that point.

And that's the problem. Right then, she's unpredictable. She might fall to her knees and commit ritual suicide. She might fall to the ground and weep. She might snap, and go on a rampage. She might do... any number of things. A lot of the people posting say that she would likely have done something that was peaceful and non-violent, which is... something you can't judge, really.

To make that point again: No-one can say what she would or would not have done if she was left alone. A violent reaction from her was as likely as a remorseful or peaceful one.

Not interfering, or leaving that to chance - or even calling the guards, it'll take them a few rounds to get here and they probably can't stand against her if she chooses to resist arrest - gambles on the peaceful reaction. It's a benevolent gamble. But it's not prudent. Especially given the fact that she believes two other people in the room to be evildoers.

The same people that say Miko's reaction was likely to have been peaceful also sometimes say that Roy attacking her was a move that made the situation worse. In fact, it didn't, not really. The end result was Miko in custody, and no-one else was killed. Hinjo was wounded, but... well, Roy can't be blamed for that one. That's a good end result. Nice and tidy. A better one might have been for Miko to surrender peacefully, but as I said above (and let's say it again), because no-one can say if she would have done, it was best all round to take her down and ask questions later.

Anyone who says that Roy should have done nothing because he doesn't have the right, again, doesn't 'get it'. He's a Hero, people. He's The Hero. He lives in a world that recognises adventurers as legitimate vigilantes*; a world that was literally MADE for heroes and adventurers. He has every right to do what he can to help. And taking down Lord Shojo's murderer IS helping. Maybe it's not helping her mental health prospects, but frankly, so what?

* as an example, watch how the Order is allowed to support the Cliffport Police

[Querzis]

Possibly. But given that Roy likes to cite his intellect and sense as two of his most valuable assets and positive character traits, I think I can be justified in judging him harsher when he purposefully takes leaves of both.

Ampersand last time Roy destroyed the lich, he did it with a FREAKING BROKEN SWORD! Now he got a +5 swords thats especially harmfull to undead and probably more levels, how the hell was he supposed to expect Xykon to beat him like this? Nobody had any idea of Xykon level except him, his minion and of course us. Roy had all the reason to believe that he would not only kill the lich, but that it would be kinda easy given past experience and his new sword and level. Someone with 40 int and 40 wis in Roy situation would still have all the reasons to believe he was gonna win. Xykon did a Pun-pun, his enemy had all the reasons to believe its going to be easy to kill him and then he turn out to be 10 times stronger then they expected, now could you finally give one good reason why its supposed to be Roy fault? He was very heroic and, might I add, nobody did as much damage to Xykon except Soon (and he still destroyed the xombie dragon.)

[Solo]

So, if someone goes nuts and commits murder exactly like Miko did, Ampersand, what do you think a police officer would do?

[Demented]

If that were the case, [..]
"It's just a feelin', baby!"
Don't waste your time arguing such brief trivialities... unless you really want to.

On the other hand, the self defense being not necessarily lethal argument may have some potential. However, that's only because you have the opportunity to Prove It. Though, why anyone would want to debate the violent nature of self defense in OOTSworld when they can instead rant about Roy's ignorance (which he has in plenty), I'll never know.

For that matter, I can't think of any non-lethal self-defense in OOTS, short of an Evil character casting sanctuary. How ironic.

Also, and I'm not sure how it got mentioned, but, Belkar's actions are never justified. Unless the fact that he likes to do them counts as a justification. That Belkar. As stubborn as he is stone cold...

[Ampersand]

The unavailability of the party wizard means that Roy only has two options, one of which is 'do not react' - and that is unacceptable.

Roy had plenty of options. He could have done nothing, he could have fled Azure City, he could have attempted to bait Xykon down to the battlements, he could have gone to reinforce the throne room, or he could have done any number of things. Saying that he only had two options over-dramatizes things to the point I half expect Elan to poke his thread in this thread and go "Dun dun dun!"


Unfortunately, his improvised solution doesn't take into account some unorthodox tactics on Xykon's part (his emergency flight spell, which was a spell none of the Order had seen him use in the past).

How is a magic user casting a spell that's in the core rules an unorthodox tactic? By definition those are the most common and widely used spells. Even if Roy had never personally seen Xykon use a flight spell, they're common as dirt and coming from a wizardly background as he did he should have anticipated the possibility.


If you think that if Roy hadn't have attacked Xykon, Azure City would have won, then come out and say it. If you think that the result would mostly have been the same, then it was a worthwhile gamble that sadly didn't pay off.

Again, that is falsely oversimplifying the available options for dramatic effect.


Ampersand last time Roy destroyed the lich, he did it with a FREAKING BROKEN SWORD! Now he got a +5 swords thats especially harmfull to undead and probably more levels, how the hell was he supposed to expect Xykon to beat him like this?

Because a good warrior, no matter what doodads or advantages over their opponent they posses, doesn't go into battle assuming that they will effortlessly triumph. Competent warriors with a quarter of Roy's intelligence and experience know that; the fact that Roy did face Xykon expecting an effortless solo kill on the weight of his sword and previous experience only underscores the remarkable arrogance he displayed.


So, if someone goes nuts and commits murder exactly like Miko did, Ampersand, what do you think a police officer would do?

Given my unfamiliarity with modern police procedures outside of Hollywood glamorization and anecdotal evidence, I don't feel qualified to speculate on the matter.

Also, why are you asking me about Miko? I've only been talking about Roy.

[SmartAlec]

How is a magic user casting a spell that's in the core rules an unorthodox tactic? By definition those are the most common and widely used spells. Even if Roy had never personally seen Xykon use a flight spell, they're common as dirt and coming from a wizardly background as he did he should have anticipated the possibility.

You just don't expect the guy on the back of a dragon to also have a flying spell in effect. Crippling Xykon's dragon was a good idea! Somehow, Xykon anticipated it, which was inspired - and for the Good Guys, unfortunate - foresight on his part.

Or it's possible the flying spell was there so that Xykon could leave the dragon to its' own devices once he reached his target, in which case it's worth pointing out that, if nothing else, Roy forced Xykon to abandon his dragon. He won't find another one of those for a while, with any luck. Had it still been around, there's a possibility Hinjo's ship would have been attacked by it, with potentially disastrous consequences.


Again, that is falsely oversimplifying the available options for dramatic effect.

No, it's not; it's you overcomplicating the issue to the point where it no longer makes sense. The options you give are, frankly, lame options; they rely too much on Xykon's reactions. A guy who can't even remember your name when you've killed him once, and who barely reacts when you swing a sword at him, isn't easily baited, not when he's clearly fixed on the goal of the throne room; and trying to beat Xykon there is going to be tricky, given the fact that he's on a flying dragon. And if he doesn't react the way you want, that's it, you've lost your window of opportunity.

I say it again, with a slight modification: there was only one thing Roy could do to bring the battle to Xykon, and he did it.

[Aimbot]

I have not read one word of this thread.

On any thread that's reached 7 pages has to be a Miko arguement.

I will stake this account on that assumption.

Edit: Hah. Knew it. First page.

[Roderick_BR]

The sheer idiocy of his actions and the subsequent loses incurred by not having him on the field of battle (not to mention the distraction and splitting of his comrades his death caused) more than negates any consideration he might have had for his intentions.
(...)
Wait, you are saying that because he was NOT there, things went wrong? So, if he haven't died, if he were still with his group, things would have gone better?

[NikkTheTrick]

Roy had explicit orders to engage Xylon. As far as he knew, OOtS were the only ones capable of stopping Xylon. If the lich had bypassed them and got in the throne room, guarded only by mid-level Paladins, the gate would fall into Xylon's hands and all would have been lost.

Ghost Paladins was a well-kept secret that Hinjo did not tell OOtS untill it was way too late. Also, Hinjo noted that he made sure that only paladins were in the throne room. If Roy, being a non-Paladin, entered the room and fought alongside the Paladins, Soon might not be able to come! He might have spoiled the sacrafice.

With 20/20 hindsight we might decide that Roy's action was not the best one. But Roy was in the midst of batle and had only seconds to decide if he should get on Xylon's dragon or not. and if Xylon passed the wall and got into the throne room... the battle, as far as he knew, would have been lost there.

And, once again, he was following orders from the commander-in-chief of AC forces. Disobeying the order would mean chaos in whatever plans Hinjo might have had. This is why orders should not be disobeyed unless there is a very good reason to do so. If Roy was the commander, then his actions would be stupid. But he was a soldier and he died fulfilling his duty. One might argue that accepting Paladin's authority over him was a bad idea, but he was in Asure City and he had to follow their rules.

[Shatteredtower]

What you say there illustrates the difficulty of a judgement call. That is what it is to be a leader of adventurers, really; making judgement calls.This does not absolve a hero from the responsibility that comes with the call made.


A lot of the people posting say that she would likely have done something that was peaceful and non-violent, which is... something you can't judge, really.Actually, nobody wrote this, and it would be nice if those defending Roy would actually address what was written, rather than misrepresenting it time and time again.

Once again, peaceful surrender was a possibility -- up until Roy attacked her. Whether the odds were 99% or infinitesimal is not the point.


Not interfering, or leaving that to chance - or even calling the guards, it'll take them a few rounds to get here and they probably can't stand against her if she chooses to resist arrest - gambles on the peaceful reaction.Except that Roy is standing there, ready to attack her if she makes a hostile move. It's a win-win situation compared to what he actually did. If she'd attacked on her own, he'd have been no worse off for waiting -- even likely to have improved his odds by virtue of having Hinjo's assistance. And if she hadn't attacked, then Roy's method would have been proven unnecessary.

There is no getting around that. Holding his attack could only have improved Roy's odds in a violent resolution, and Hinjo's odds in a non-violent one.


The end result was Miko in custody, and no-one else was killed.The end did not justify the means.

Furthermore, the end result was that both Roy and Hinjo took more of a beating than was necessary, even if Miko had attacked them without further provocation.


He's a Hero, people.Not even heroes get a free pass for their actions.

[David Argall]

My friend wouldn't be in danger because he isn't there, other guy hasn't expressed a desire to kill him, and (perhaps most importantly) the other guy hasn't demonstrated himself to be absolutely crazy. He didn't say "Oh, I am going to kill you two *insert choice word here*!". Furthermore, since his primary reason for shooting me in the first place is in self-defense, there is no reason to think that the friend (who presumably hasn't done anything) would be a target.
Now what if only some of these are true? There is obviously a chance he was along with you, and there is bad blood between the "defensive" killer and him, and seeing his good pal, you, die, he may well say something that sounds threatening.
The simple result is that your standard will end up with more dead bodies, and is rejected by the courts. We have the law before us. It rejects the plea of self defense here.


The point I'm trying to get across is that reasonable doubt only extends until the risk of not attacking pre-emptively becomes too great. Miko was at that point.
But by all the evidence presented, she was a considerable distance away from that. She was standing in a location, not advancing on someone. Her attitude was not battle ready.


Let's look at my reloading analogy again. If I shoot Sam and start reloading, that constitutes a threat to Jamie, because he's the only person around to shoot.
But that does not constitute an immediate threat. And the law says "immediate threat".


Miko killed Shojo, then picked up her sword and began rationalizing. She took as given that she was right to kill Shojo when she said "It all made sense. The Gods showed me his treachery". She took as given that she was right before she even said anything. She was "reloading" herself.
Such is one possible explanation, but there are large numbers of "reloaded" humans who don't resume shooting.


Roy knows Miko. He knows how she thinks well enough to know that when she starts rationalizing, she comes to the conclusion that she is right.
And again, Roy doesn't care. He is not in the least trying to defend himself. He wants to beat her up, period. This is his only motive. There is simply no grounds for self defense when you deliberately attack someone.


And one more thing: we've been talking about this as if Roy was trying to kill Miko. What evidence is there of this? If we're going to assume that killing one person is not an indication that Miko is going to kill someone else, then why is one attack dealing lethal damage on Roy's part an indication that the next one will be? Or the next one?
Mostly because attacking for nonlethal damage is a dumb idea. You do it when you just gotta make sure the foe survives. Maybe he is a Confused or Controlled pal, or ... Anyway, you really want him to live. Other than that, it's just fighting with one hand behind your back.
Roy has no reason to want Miko to survive. At best he doesn't care, and more likely he has an active preference for her dying. He is just not going to hand her this free advantage. So why should he try non-lethal damage?
Avoid a murder charge? Well, that requires admitting Roy was in the wrong in attacking at all. And he faces a distinctly friendly court.


So why do we give Miko the benefit of the doubt and not Roy? After all, Roy hadn't become psychotic and hadn't killed anyone yet.
That is another reason. Despite all your certainity, we can't really predict what Miko was going to do next.



To make that point again: No-one can say what she would or would not have done if she was left alone. A violent reaction from her was as likely as a remorseful or peaceful one.
Not interfering, or leaving that to chance - or even calling the guards, it'll take them a few rounds to get here and they probably can't stand against her if she chooses to resist arrest - gambles on the peaceful reaction. It's a benevolent gamble. But it's not prudent.
It is what the law requires of you. You may use violent self defense only when you are certain you are in immediate danger. You are not allowed to be "prudent" if it involves attacking someone who might, and only might, attack you. You can call for the guards, prepare for attack, or a number of other things. But you can't attack in self defense.

And once again, Roy rejected self defense. He was deliberately attacking without regard to any threat Miko might provide.



The same people that say Miko's reaction was likely to have been peaceful also sometimes say that Roy attacking her was a move that made the situation worse. In fact, it didn't, not really. The end result was Miko in custody, and no-one else was killed.
You are in a game of poker and need the 6 & 8 to make your straight. That's about a 1/60 chance and is an absurd draw. But it will win on that one rare hand.
Roy was lucky in that sense. He was beat by Miko twice. He has good reason to think he will do better this time, but he could suffer a couple of criticals. Or Hinjo could have suffered that critical.

Roy avoids this risk by doing nothing and hoping Miko does nothing or can be talked into surrender. As noted, he seems to risk little if he waits. He can still fight later.



Anyone who says that Roy should have done nothing because he doesn't have the right, again, doesn't 'get it'. He's a Hero, people. He's The Hero.
And as such, he is not supposed to get mad and attack people. He is supposed to demand they surrender and then beat them up when they attack him. He loses this way too.

[Saph]

You mean, "Now about this case of sexual harassment..."

No, I'm not overstating the case. Sexual harrassment includes saying or doing something of a sexual nature (making sexual suggestions) that Roy knows (or ought to know) Miko will not welcome.

Anyone dare to claim she had that coming?

Yup, me.

Or to be more accurate, I just don't care. Oh dear, the poor little psychotic murderess got her feelings hurt by a nasty comment from that mean ol' Roy? Cry me a river.

I found Roy's verbal takedown absolutely hilarious, and judging by the number of people who sigged bits of that conversation, I wasn't the only one. Hee, I'm laughing now just remembering it. I wish I could write dialogue that funny. :)

"I can't believe I actually wanted to date you at one point. I mean, can you imagine that relationship? 'Honey, we're out of milk.' 'Clearly, that means the gods want me to kill you!' Slash! Slash! Slash! "

- Saph

[One Skunk Todd]

I think that Roy is in for a surprise...

...and a nasty one at that.

<snip>

Thoughts.

After today's strip maybe not so much.

[Shatteredtower]

Or to be more accurate, I just don't care. Oh dear, the poor little psychotic murderess got her feelings hurt by a nasty comment from that mean ol' Roy? Cry me a river.Your enjoyment of her suffering at his hands does not make it right, let alone acceptable.

By all means, the lines were amusing -- in the way Belkar is often amusing. Morally, however, Roy's conduct does not meet expectations -- unless, again, they're Belkar's.

Edit: Let's be clearer. If Roy is justified in taking out his anger and sexual frustration with Miko out the way he did, then Miko is justified in taking out her frustrations on Shojo for what he did to her. The lies, the manipulation, the trials of having to deal with Belkar... Yeah, he deserved to die for all of that.

I mean, that's the consistent view. Either Shojo and Miko deserved what they got, or Roy and Miko both went too far.

[Rogue 7]

Your enjoyment of her suffering at his hands does not make it right, let alone acceptable.

By all means, the lines were amusing -- in the way Belkar is often amusing. Morally, however, Roy's conduct does not meet expectations -- unless, again, they're Belkar's.

Edit: Let's be clearer. If Roy is justified in taking out his anger and sexual frustration with Miko out the way he did, then Miko is justified in taking out her frustrations on Shojo for what he did to her. The lies, the manipulation, the trials of having to deal with Belkar... Yeah, he deserved to die for all of that.

I mean, that's the consistent view. Either Shojo and Miko deserved what they got, or Roy and Miko both went too far.
You're comparing apples and oranges here. Insulting someone is so far away from just killing them that I can't see how you make that comparison.

[Porthos]

So, we now have crossed Elan and Belkar off of the I Know What You Did Last Life list. Hmmm... That should mean the only thing we should have left is....

Gulp.

Okay, I think I'll just be hiding out from forum speculation in that corner over there. :smalleek:


:smallwink:

[Demented]

Yeah, he's going to regret ever laying eyes on.... Celia. XD

[Saph]

Your enjoyment of her suffering at his hands does not make it right, let alone acceptable.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the suffering came from Roy beating the hell out of her with the flat of his greatsword. I doubt a few insults caused her all that much pain and hardship - although he did succeed in hitting a nerve with the last one, judging by the last two lines.

"Although which paladin they'd have to draft into that duty-"
"STOP TALKING!"


By all means, the lines were amusing -- in the way Belkar is often amusing. Morally, however, Roy's conduct does not meet expectations -- unless, again, they're Belkar's.

It meets mine just fine. Actually, given the amount of **** Roy's had to take from Miko, culminating in her flipping out and murdering Shojo right in front of him, I'm quite impressed he didn't just kill her on the spot instead of only subduing her. Given how the battle for Azure City played out it was a pity he didn't, really. Roy's too LG for his own good sometimes.

- Saph

[Shatteredtower]

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Insulting someone is so far away from just killing them that I can't see how you make that comparison.Scale is irrelevant in this matter. This is about right or wrong, not what precise shade of orange we're seeing. Roy was wrong. It doesn't matter that Miko's may have been the greater wrong (I happen to think it is, but not everyone agrees on this point). His conduct was still inexcusable.


Actually, I'm pretty sure the suffering came from Roy beating the hell out of her with the flat of his greatsword.We've yet to see Miko run from violence. Get hurled out of scene, sure, after which her focus was on alerting the city.


I doubt a few insults caused her all that much pain and hardship - although he did succeed in hitting a nerve with the last one, judging by the last two lines.

The change in expression in the three panels above that indicate that Roy was plucking striking nerves all the way through the previous line of thought as well.


It meets mine just fine.But we're judging this by the standards of pure law and good.


Actually, given the amount of **** Roy's had to take from Miko, culminating in her flipping out and murdering Shojo right in front of him, I'm quite impressed he didn't just kill her on the spot instead of only subduing her.I would also have understood him doing that, just as I understand why he did what he did. That still doesn't excuse it.


Given how the battle for Azure City played out it was a pity he didn't, really.If he hadn't attacked Miko, and she'd surrendered, there's no reason to believe she'd have escaped. Indeed, based on what we've seen of Hinjo's conduct in dealing with prisoners, it is likely that he'd have allowed her to participate in the defense in some fashion, even though she was charged with a capital crime. Either way would have been an improvement over what actually happened.

I happen to think the odds of her surrendering, if given a chance, was small, though not so small as it was when Hinjo made his offer. If it did happen, it might have been saved the lives of a few extra paladins (or gotten them killed more quickly). It would certainly have improved O'Chul's chances right now.

Of course, killing Miko would have achieved the same thing, sure. Then again, maybe that dirt farmer he saved will uncover another rift, larger than the others, and release the Snarl into our world once more.

Roy couldn't know that Miko would-- hold on, now. Here's his justification for not leaving Belkar in prison in #489: "If I hadn't 'freed' him, he would have escaped during the battle anyway and probably become yet another recurring villain."

I suspect he only came to that conclusion after seeing the Linear Guild escape (again), which would mean that he's not giving his real reason for freeing Belkar. Very odd. The Guild's position was out of his hands, but it seems he either trusted Miko to not escape or just didn't care. The former doesn't seem to have anything to do with his alignment, while the latter seems at odds with it.

Actually, I can think of one problem that would have come from killing Miko: she was respected among the Sapphire Guard. Not liked, but respected. Leaving her alive to stand trial for her crime gave them (and Hinjo in particular) more reason to trust Roy and his teammates.

That factor didn't save any lives, as far as I can tell, but the result is less important than meaningful efforts made to improve it.


Roy's too LG for his own good sometimes.And yet, not enough, sometimes even at the same time.

I don't condemn him for his attack on Xykon because Xykon had to be stopped -- and he wasn't informed of the one resource that could have stopped him (Soon's unliving army). If the job needs to be done and you're the only one you know of able to do it, the lawful good thing to do is try. It was not the smart thing to do, but good (or evil) and smart are measured on two different scales.

Roy's contributions to the battle were these:

1. Got Xykon to use up one 7th and one 9th level spell slot. Considering that the lich was reduced to empowering magic missile in his last fight, I doubt that mattered much.

2. Ruined the zombie dragon. Xykon wasn't impressed, and I don't see why we should be. It's not like it was going to be much good against incorporeal foes and Xykon didn't need it against the living.

3. Got Tsukiko to use up a 4th level spell slot. Of course, Xykon might have missed out on Tsukiko entirely if Roy hadn't interfered.

4. Destroyed the death knight. I'd hardly count that, since it was an accident.

Belkar and Elan both contributed more meaningfully than that. Even so, it doesn't have anything to do with the man's alignment. Roy's case deva might very well ask, "What were you thinking?" but I can't see her taking it out of his moral grades.

[Demented]

You may consider Roy's condect inexcusable, but I'd be quite fine with it. Or I'd condemn Elan for his unsportsmanlike conduct against a disarmed opponent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html). Or any of several other mildly "inexcusable" events. After all, one must be fair if they are to be just.


Roy couldn't know that Miko would-- hold on, now. Here's his justification for not leaving Belkar in prison in #489: "If I hadn't 'freed' him, he would have escaped during the battle anyway and probably become yet another recurring villain."

I suspect he only came to that conclusion after seeing the Linear Guild escape (again), which would mean that he's not giving his real reason for freeing Belkar. Very odd. The Guild's position was out of his hands, but it seems he either trusted Miko to not escape or just didn't care. The former doesn't seem to have anything to do with his alignment, while the latter seems at odds with it.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0263.html
See panel 8.
Or the comic two pages prior.
Or perhaps that book, Origins, has a clue.


Not to mention there's plenty of reason to conclude she'd try to escape. After all, she was already perfectly happy and content to stay in her cell... Until she noticed a crack in her cell bars. (Admittedly, it was unusual. Cell bars should bend and crumple, not crack.)

[dakiwiboid]

You may consider Roy's condect inexcusable, but I'd be quite fine with it. Or I'd condemn Elan for his unsportsmanlike conduct against a disarmed opponent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html). Or any of several other mildly "inexcusable" events. After all, one must be fair if they are to be just.

Hmmm...would you really hold unsportsmanlike conduct against someone fighting Nale, the least ethical of opponents?

I certainly wouldn't. After all, it turns out he was going to turn Haley into a human sacrifice. Elan had experience in fighting against him and knew the kind of tricks he's likely to pull. Frankly, I cheered him!

[DeadmanXI]

You may consider Roy's condect inexcusable, but I'd be quite fine with it. Or I'd condemn Elan for his unsportsmanlike conduct against a disarmed opponent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html). Or any of several other mildly "inexcusable" events. After all, one must be fair if they are to be just.

Y'know I'm all for saying Roy is awesome, but how is Elan unsportsmanlike there? As soon as Nale is disarmed, Elan stops using his weapon. What could be more fair than that?

[Andre Fairchilde]

Sorry to go off on a Miko tangent - but Miko disarmed? She was a monk... you can't disarm a monk... She's always able to to lethal damage...

[David Argall]

I mean, that's the consistent view. Either Shojo and Miko deserved what they got, or Roy and Miko both went too far.
Well, they both went too far, but presumably for different reasons, which means one can blame one and not the other.

If we take Miko's statements as her real reasons, and find them a reasonable assessment of the situation, she gets no blame for killing Shojo. Finding them an unreasonable deduction from the evidence she had [and possibly merely an excuse for her real motives], we classify her act as evil.

With Roy, we have a clear case where he is in the wrong in all theories of the case. He has no right to just beat her up, no grounds to plea self defense, and makes no attempt to arrest her. We can call his sins less than Miko's, possibly by orders of magnitude, but he is still a sinner.

[....]

2. Haley and Belkar are trapped in Azure City with no way to receive aid or extraction.
2b. If the pendant Haley is carrying is broken, Celia will be in the same position.

Unless we're wrong about Cloister, in which case a Sending spell with hook them up with the rest of the OOTS. Or they could summon Celia and get her to fly them out.

[Demented]

Y'know I'm all for saying Roy is awesome, but how is Elan unsportsmanlike there? As soon as Nale is disarmed, Elan stops using his weapon. What could be more fair than that?

Offering him a hot cup of tea?
Considering Nale's such an inferior combatant when he's armed with a dagger, I'd have let him have a 2-course breakfast and grab an actual weapon before I surprise attack him my katanas for a 3-hit KO.

[DeadmanXI]

Offering him a hot cup of tea?
Considering Nale's such an inferior combatant when he's armed with a dagger, I'd have let him have a 2-course breakfast and grab an actual weapon before I surprise attack him my katanas for a 3-hit KO.

Since when is Nale particularly incompetent with a dagger? And yelling your foe's name prior to fighting them kinda invalidates the 'suprise attack' theory.

In any case, there was at least one innocent life at stake, allowing Nale time to go get a superior weapon wouldn't have been a sense of fair play, it would've been a death wish and a profound lack of respect for innocent life. Elan stopped using a weapon when Nale lost his, therefore, it's hardly "taking advantage of an unarmed opponent". I'll also note that, as a Sorcerer, Nale is never really unarmed until he's out of spells.

[David Argall]

OK, back to Roy, and the next round of interrogation..


Resisting arrest has already been mentioned, and apparently dismissed as not important. [Roy's defenses to the next two charges are clearly flawed by LG standards and are also allowed to pass without comment, so we can not assume that silence means the first defense was accepted.] However, there were two cases and the 2nd is a much more serious one. By surrendering to the 1st, Roy voids most of his defenses when he tries to justify resisting later. He needs to show that something important had changed or been discovered, and deciding he no longer wanted to bang Miko is not deemed important by any court. He has already accepted the authority of the court to arrest him and has no justification to withdraw that.
However, the charge seems to be considered minor and so may escape further discussion.

So we move on to threatening to attack Miko as she is about to kill Belkar.
Roy acknowledges this is not an action motivated by Good. He might have a reasonable case for it being lawful. However, he does not make such a plea, and it does have some weak points, including their being strangers in a court full of people who know the local laws and have a much greater duty to intervene if there is any violation of the law involved.
Companionship can only go so far in a LG court. It must bow to both Good and Law for starters. And Belkar is already noted as an unsuitable companion. Viewed as a part of an attempt at reform, it suggests that program is a failure and one should ditch it.

The general idea seems to be only to give Roy a hard time, not to reject him, but this still looks like a black mark for him.

[Shatteredtower]

You may consider Roy's condect inexcusable, but I'd be quite fine with it. Or I'd condemn Elan for his unsportsmanlike conduct against a disarmed opponent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).Nale is not a disarmed opponent in that scene, as he's still got spells to cast. Elan even took the time to instruct his opponent to surrender after securing an advantage.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0263.htmlWell spotted. I also take your point about how reasonable it was to assume that Miko would stay put.


Sorry to go off on a Miko tangent - but Miko disarmed? She was a monk... you can't disarm a monk... She's always able to to lethal damage...That's true, but she appears to be significantly more dangerous with her swords, and has favoured them in a fight in all but three cases (two of which involve delivering a stunning attack). I doubt she has more than one or two levels in the monk class. It does indicate a rather ugly feat selection as well, with the inclusion of Two-Weapon Fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword/katana).


Well, they both went too far, but presumably for different reasons, which means one can blame one and not the other.I'm not entirely sure. Even if Miko had been right about Shojo, she did place herself above legitimate authority, whether Hinjo or the laws of Azure City. It would have been one thing to break the law for good purposes, or to avoid doing evil, but Miko doesn't get that defense.

I agree with the argument that Miko did the wrong thing for better reasons than Roy did, though it was still the far greater wrong by virtue of consequences alone.

Mind you, I don't think I'd have fancied Shojo's chances if he had been taken alive. There are just too many damned ninjas around, and it's unlikely the aristocracy would have taken kindly to him having made a fool of them for so long. All in all, Miko might have been doing him a favour.

That still doesn't make what she did anything but evil, mind. :smallwink:

[FujinAkari]

It does indicate a rather ugly feat selection as well, with the inclusion of Two-Weapon Fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword/katana).

Azure City, being an "eastern" culture, likely gains proficiency in katana automatically, much the same way elves are always proficient in Longswords.

[thereaper]

[QUOTE=David Argall;3259704]Now what if only some of these are true? There is obviously a chance he was along with you, and there is bad blood between the "defensive" killer and him, and seeing his good pal, you, die, he may well say something that sounds threatening.
The simple result is that your standard will end up with more dead bodies, and is rejected by the courts. We have the law before us. It rejects the plea of self defense here.[quote]

If only some of that was true, then it's a whole different ballgame. I'm not arguing about what would happen if only some of it was true. I'm arguing about what happens when all of it is true, which was the case with Roy and Miko.


[quote]But by all the evidence presented, she was a considerable distance away from that. She was standing in a location, not advancing on someone. Her attitude was not battle ready.[quote]

Really? Psychosis and confusion are not battle-ready attitudes? I can't think of anything that would make me more battle-ready than feeling angry and betrayed, and then to lose my powers over what I knew (or believed) was the right thing.


[quote]But that does not constitute an immediate threat. And the law says "immediate threat".[quote]

But what is immediate? Within 10 seconds at 90% probability?


[quote]Such is one possible explanation, but there are large numbers of "reloaded" humans who don't resume shooting.[quote]


[quote]And again, Roy doesn't care. He is not in the least trying to defend himself. He wants to beat her up, period. This is his only motive. There is simply no grounds for self defense when you deliberately attack someone.[quote]

Assuming that you're right about that (which is far from certain), does it really matter? Roy was defending them, whether he cared or not.


[quote]Mostly because attacking for nonlethal damage is a dumb idea. You do it when you just gotta make sure the foe survives. Maybe he is a Confused or Controlled pal, or ... Anyway, you really want him to live. Other than that, it's just fighting with one hand behind your back.
Roy has no reason to want Miko to survive. At best he doesn't care, and more likely he has an active preference for her dying. He is just not going to hand her this free advantage. So why should he try non-lethal damage?
Avoid a murder charge? Well, that requires admitting Roy was in the wrong in attacking at all. And he faces a distinctly friendly court. [quote]

Attacking for nonlethal damage isn't so bad when you only have to make sure the last attack is nonlethal. Let's consider the Giant's description of the Miko fight. V went down in the first round and never really gets a chance to do much. Durkon does nothing but heal. Elan does nothing useful at all. Belkar is pinned and/or down the whole time. Haley is nearly useless. So, for the most part it was Roy w/ Greatclub vs Paladin Miko. The only advantages Roy had that he didn't have during this fight was Durkon's healing and the fact that Miko didn't have to spend a few turns putting down the other party members. And this time, Roy has the advantage of his sword and dealt with a MUCH weaker Miko. And during the last fight, Roy almost beat Miko. He brought her down to roughly 1 full power attack away from defeat and gave up because it was too risky to continue. So, from this we know that Roy is aware of how much it takes to put Miko down and is close enough to her in power that he can risk inflicting non-lethal damage.


[quote]That is another reason. Despite all your certainity, we can't really predict what Miko was going to do next.


It is what the law requires of you. You may use violent self defense only when you are certain you are in immediate danger. You are not allowed to be "prudent" if it involves attacking someone who might, and only might, attack you. You can call for the guards, prepare for attack, or a number of other things. But you can't attack in self defense.[quote]

And what I've been trying to say is that you can never be certain. It's a scientific impossibility. All you can do is be nearly certain. If a guy says he's gonna shoot you, fires a gun off into the air, and then points it at you, you can not be certain he is going to shoot you. He might be bluffing. He might miss. He might not have any more bullets in the gun. The gun might jam. The bullet might quantum tunnel through you. You might be hallucinating and he's not even holding a gun. You just can't be certain. Therefore, if we are going to assume that certainty is required for self-defense, than there is no such thing as self-defense and this whole discussion is moot. So clearly, certainty is not required; only near certainty.

And don't even try to say that he cooled down after Hinjo got into it. Watching my friend get their butt kicked would not calm me down. If Roy was willing to attack with non-lethal damage after that, he was clearly willing to attack with non-lethal damage before.

You also claim that Roy gains nothing by waiting to see if Miko surrenders. I beg to differ. Miko was unstable. Do you really think that bringing in guards to arrest her would do anything except make her survival instinct kick in and make her more violent? Or that those guards would be able to do anything against Miko except die (like Hinjo, the most powerful paladin in the SG, was about to do)?

Even waiting to see if Miko attacks someone else is risky, because it gives her the time to collect herself and better defend against Roy's attempts to stop her.

And that brings us to another aspect of this debate that hasn't been covered yet: Miko's power.

Modern law is not meant to deal with things like superpowered criminals. One thing it does do, however, is increase penalities with danger. You do a lot more time robbing a store with a gun than you do robbing it with a bat. Police also take less risks when dealing more dangerous criminals. These can include body armor, better weaponry, even specially-trained units such as SWAT teams. But the amount of danger Miko poses is beyond all of that. She's not a psychotic girl with a shotgun. She's a psychotic girl in a tank with fighter jets and choppers covering her. Don't even try to tell me that police would deal with a threat like that in the same way they would a standard murderer.

And the icing on this cake is that Hinjo himself states that Roy did nothing wrong except perhaps enjoy beating her up. He knows Azure City's laws better than we do. If he says it's ok, it's ok.

[Ampersand]

You just don't expect the guy on the back of a dragon to also have a flying spell in effect. Crippling Xykon's dragon was a good idea! Somehow, Xykon anticipated it, which was inspired - and for the Good Guys, unfortunate - foresight on his part.

Why don't you expect them to have a flying spell active? Surely they know that their mount is a tempting target...and, generally, far easier to destroy than the character who's riding it. It'd be moronic to go into combat on a flying mount and not have a way to reach the ground safely if it's killed or destroyed. To paraphrase Xykon himself, he may be impatient and not think much of planning but that doesn't mean he's stupid.


Had it still been around, there's a possibility Hinjo's ship would have been attacked by it, with potentially disastrous consequences.

Maybe, but you can't possibly argue that Roy planned that.


Wait, you are saying that because he was NOT there, things went wrong? So, if he haven't died, if he were still with his group, things would have gone better?

Well, yeah...if Roy hadn't died, Haley and Belkar wouldn't have had to go retrieve his corpse, for one. I'd say being trapped in a ruined city with a zillion hobgoblins, an epic level lich, a (possibly) epic level priest, a mystic theruge and an unknowingly powerful monster (not to mention whatever exotic Oriental undead O'Chuul will pop up as) is being pretty bad off, wouldn't you?

And, for ..., that's even assuming that the Cloister spell hasn't physically trapped them in the ruins.


With 20/20 hindsight we might decide that Roy's action was not the best one.

You don't even need hindsight to see how stupid that was. Foresight, immediate-sight, precognition and prophecy can all see how Elan-esque his actions were. Actually comparing them to Elan might be an insult to the bard, because I'm not sure even he would go to those levels of stupidity.

[David Argall]

If only some of that was true, then it's a whole different ballgame. I'm not arguing about what would happen if only some of it was true. I'm arguing about what happens when all of it is true, which was the case with Roy and Miko.
But we do not know that all of this is true. Nor does Roy. For example, it is quite possible the paladins have a rule "he who kills a paladin dies". It's a common enough rule in military elite groups like this. There would likely be a number of exceptions and details, but it is entirely possible Miko has a large number of "friends" who would want to revenge her.
This particular circumstance may be rare, but we have a whole lot of sets of circumstances here. We rapidly find we have very few cases where it is justified to attack, so few that we might as well ignore them and adopt the rule that you can't use self defense except when absolutely necessary.


Psychosis and confusion are not battle-ready attitudes? I can't think of anything that would make me more battle-ready than feeling angry and betrayed, and then to lose my powers over what I knew (or believed) was the right thing.
Your inclusion of confusion here shows the point. The confused person might do anything, or nothing. That makes her dangerous, but only dangerous. She might attack, and she might not. And if she might not, self defense is not a valid plea.


But what is immediate? Within 10 seconds at 90% probability?
Within the D&D system, it would be within 6 seconds in the standard case since that is 1 round, the shortest such division of time. And as usual, the law dodges the exact figure by punting to the "reasonable man".


Assuming that you're right about that (which is far from certain),
Feel free to provide any evidence that Roy was concerned about self defense at all when he attacked. He tells us his reasoning, and it claims to be complete and not mention defense.


does it really matter? Roy was defending them, whether he cared or not.
Was he? When Miko tries to leave, he orders Belkar to get in her way. Even without considering the Mark, this is clearly increasing Belkar's danger, not defending him.


Attacking for nonlethal damage isn't so bad when you only have to make sure the last attack is nonlethal. we know that Roy is aware of how much it takes to put Miko down and is close enough to her in power that he can risk inflicting non-lethal damage.
But again, why should he bother? Assuming we accept his right to attack at all, she is a murderer, a fit target for death. And when we talk of risking something, we acknowledge we are risking something. Some innocent can get hurt or killed while we try to avoid killing somebody who should be killed. That simply does not make sense.
The saying is "If it is worth doing, it is worth doing well." Nonlethal damage is normally doing things badly.


you can never be certain. It's a scientific impossibility. All you can do is be nearly certain. If a guy says he's gonna shoot you, You just can't be certain. Therefore, if we are going to assume that certainty is required for self-defense, than there is no such thing as self-defense and this whole discussion is moot. So clearly, certainty is not required; only near certainty.
Only a technical point. As is already apparent from the laws mentioned, you have to be very certain, far more certain than Roy was.


And don't even try to say that he cooled down after Hinjo got into it. Watching my friend get their butt kicked would not calm me down. If Roy was willing to attack with non-lethal damage after that, he was clearly willing to attack with non-lethal damage before.
I fail to see where he used nonlethal damage at all.


You also claim that Roy gains nothing by waiting to see if Miko surrenders. I beg to differ. Miko was unstable. Do you really think that bringing in guards to arrest her would do anything except make her survival instinct kick in and make her more violent?
Certainly. These are people Miko in some degree likes and respects. Note that she did stop and talk with Hinjo. So there is a definite chance she would surrender quietly to them. And numbers do win, even against much stronger foes.


Or that those guards would be able to do anything against Miko except die (like Hinjo, the most powerful paladin in the SG, was about to do)?
O'Chul was somewhere not far away and has a whole lot of hp. Miko could beat him of course, but beat him and Hinjo, and ... She loses. And as noted, if Roy can beat her, then Roy and Hinjo can beat her.


Even waiting to see if Miko attacks someone else is risky, because it gives her the time to collect herself and better defend against Roy's attempts to stop her.
How?
Miko is essentially trapped in the throne room. We simply sit and wait for her to surrender. Standard police procedure. You assemble overwhelming force and then just talk the criminal down. You don't try anything aggressive. You just stand there until the criminal accepts that there is no hope.


And that brings us to another aspect of this debate that hasn't been covered yet: Miko's power.

Modern law is not meant to deal with things like superpowered criminals. She's not a psychotic girl with a shotgun. She's a psychotic girl in a tank with fighter jets and choppers covering her. Don't even try to tell me that police would deal with a threat like that in the same way they would a standard murderer.
That is just how they would treat her. She is not superpowered, just stronger than nearly anybody else in the city. But Hinjo and O-Chul can give her a tussle and a number of other paladins are of notable level as well. Not to mention Roy is available too. You start doing the math and they are going to take her out.


Hinjo himself states that Roy did nothing wrong except perhaps enjoy beating her up. He knows Azure City's laws better than we do. If he says it's ok, it's ok.
As said, Just what Hinjo saw and heard is questionable. He was concentrating on his uncle, something that could easily have kept him from noticing the 2nd Coming until several rounds had passed and the Roy-Miko fight was well under way.
And Hinjo is not in a position to focus on Roy's legal flaws. He needs to persuade Miko to surrender for her crime.
But Miko and Hinjo are not focused on Roy's lesser crimes. Miko wants him charged with high treason and Hinjo is saying there is no evidence of that. Again, Hinjo is not able to give us conclusive evidence in favor of Roy.[/quote]
Roy has vowed to destroy Xykon, and came close to doing so once. He intends to try again. So is it self defense if the lich tracks him down and kills him?



I'd condemn Elan for his unsportsmanlike conduct against a disarmed opponent.
So who cares about unsportsmanlike conduct? This is not a sport. Nale, having attacked, had lost immunity to being attacked. As the joke goes, "You can tell you are in trouble when the bully smiles at you...right after you hit him as hard as you could." Nale can regain a right to self defense by fleeing, but he doesn't do so, and Elan is fully allowed to use whatever weapons are effective in defending himself or Haley.



Mind you, I don't think I'd have fancied Shojo's chances if he had been taken alive. There are just too many damned ninjas around, and it's unlikely the aristocracy would have taken kindly to him having made a fool of them for so long. All in all, Miko might have been doing him a favour.
Not much danger. Ninjas cost money and Shojo would be a worthless prisoner under heavy guard. You save your coin to pay for offing Hinjo. Now if they had been bribing Shojo and were afraid he would spill the beans, he might be worth the trouble, but you don't give a secret bribe to what you think is a senile old man who might start babbling about it at any time, so Shojo doesn't know anything worth shutting him up about.



You don't even need hindsight to see how stupid that was. Foresight, immediate-sight, precognition and prophecy can all see how Elan-esque his actions were. Actually comparing them to Elan might be an insult to the bard, because I'm not sure even he would go to those levels of stupidity.
Well, for starters, Elan seemed to think it a reasonable idea. [True, hardly an endorsement of the idea, but we see the remark is an exaggeration at least.]
But as has been noted, what was the alternative? The lich could just blast away at the defenders until the hobgoblins could just walk into the city. Nobody has figured out another way to hurt him. So the alternative to Roy jumping is immediate flight and let him take over the city. Now there is the chance that both lich and Redcloak end up getting killed by Soon or something, but Roy didn't know of that, and it's a pretty dicy hope. Much more likely Soon effectively just delays things until the gate can be destroyed.
So Roy had the choice of doing something that might work, or giving up. Surprise, he tried to do something.

[thereaper]

Unfortunately, I do not yet know how to quote individual paragraphs (help on this would be appreciated), so I'll have to improvise:

1st paragraph:

Are you trying to argue with or against me? Such an example would only make attacking Miko immediately make even more sense. Shojo may not technically be a paladin, but he is their leader and is certainly more well-liked than Miko (Hinjo says something to this extent after the trial when referring to why she gets sent to faraway places for missions). There would almost certainly be a lot more people out there wanting to avenge Shojo than wanting to avenge Miko (and even less after her fall). Stopping Miko at any cost in that case would actually be better for her safety than letting her go, because at least in the former case there would be a chance of stopping her with nonlethal damage.

2nd paragraph:

You completely ignored the psychosis part, which definitely makes her more likely to attack. And confusion would indeed make her more likely to attack. When a person is under that kind of stress, their body prepares for battle ("fight or flight"). Heart rate increases, adrenaline starts flowing, etc. It is the body's natural reaction to stress. A side effect of this is an increased likelihood of aggressive or violent behavior. So if the confusion itself doesn't indicate anything about what she will do, the instincts and psychosis will.

3rd paragraph:

I'm not going to say you are definitely wrong on that, because I know very little of the rules of D&D. However, it sounds a little flimsy to me. One action is immediate? Say someone breaks into your house and shoots at you, so you hide and grab your gun. Let's say that he's far enough away that it would take 2 actions for him to find and shoot you, but you have a clear shot at him right now. Would shooting him now qualify as self-defense?

4th paragraph:

See 13th paragraph.

5th paragraph:

Increasing one person's danger while decreasing the danger to others, such as the guards that Miko would have to get through while escaping (and would almost certainly have to fight). Belkar (as a high-level character) has a better chance of surviving until Roy can get there than the guards would.

6th paragraph:

Even a murderer's life is worth something. Perhaps Roy was confident enough he could take Miko without anyone else getting hurt as long as he got in the first shot while she was still collecting herself? Also, let's remember that being Good does not always mean logical. Hinjo is a perfect example of that. He takes many unnecessary risks because of his ideals.

8th paragraph:

The last strike defeated Miko but didn't kill her. It was also with the flat of the blade (or else it would have cut instead of slammed). That's pretty much the definition of non-lethal damage, right? And he did that AFTER seeing Miko beating on Hinjo. If he was calm enough to attack her with non-lethal damage after that, then he was definitely calm enough to do it before.

9th paragraph:

Whom she attacked, despite the fact that by her own admission she did not believe him to be evil. If she's willing to attack someone whom even SHE does not believe to be evil simply because she thinks he is going to take her to "tainted courts", why would the amount of people telling her to do that make any difference in her action? The only difference I can see it making is reinforcing her idea that it's all a setup by evil forces ("One person wanting me to go to the tainted courts is one thing. He could be honestly mistaken. But 6 people? No! At least ONE of them should realize what's going on! Unless they're ALL in on it!").

10th paragraph:

Roy is definitely higher level than Hinjo (and therefore O'Chul, since Hinjo was specifically stated to be the 2nd highest level paladin before Miko fell). We don't know for sure what level either of those two are, though. Judging by how easily Hinjo got his butt kicked, it wouldn't be a stretch at all to think that if the battle began as Hinjo and Roy vs Miko that Miko might've been able to kill Hinjo before the fight ended.

11th paragraph:

"Realizes there is no hope"? Yep, that sounds like Miko. It's not like she would eventually come to the conclusion that everyone currently trying to stop her is in on the conspiracy and attack the closest guard she could find. I mean, it's not like overwhelming force would require guys low-enough for Miko to kill in one or two rounds. Oh, yeah, I forgot. The second-strongest paladin ended up almost dying in a little longer that amount of time. I'm sure that the next 5 or 10 strongest paladins are only 1 level below Hinjo.

12th paragraph:

Hinjo did not give Miko a tussle. He slashed her foot and got his butt kicked. The more guys you bring in here, the more people that can end up dead. All Miko has to do is find the lowest-level character in the battle and kill them before she gets taken out and suddenly Roy's solution becomes the better one.

13th paragraph:

Wait. We're going to assume that Hinjo has other thoughts that he's not going to mention because he's too worried about Shojo, but we're not going to extend that same benefit of the doubt to Roy and instead just assume that he didn't have any other thoughts on the matter that he didn't mention because he was too pissed at Miko? What should he have said? "Ok, that's it! You just killed the only guy actively trying to help save the world and have proven yourself a danger to the rest of us in doing so that I cannot risk leaving un-neutralized, so I'm gonna kick your fallen ass!" ? Sorry, but that doesn't seem very practical.

[David Argall]

Unfortunately, I do not yet know how to quote individual paragraphs (help on this would be appreciated), so I'll have to improvise:
When you hit quote, the basic language is displayed at the beginning and end of the quote. That is [, the word "quote", =, and then the name or description of the one you wish to quote, and finish with ]. To end the quote, insert a / after the [.

Thus we would have [ quote=the idiot who doesn't understand my brilliant ideas] and end it with [ /quote], in both cases removing the space.


Such an example would only make attacking Miko immediately make even more sense. There would almost certainly be a lot more people out there wanting to avenge Shojo than wanting to avenge Miko (and even less after her fall). Stopping Miko at any cost in that case would actually be better for her safety than letting her go, because at least in the former case there would be a chance of stopping her with nonlethal damage.
The point of the example is that Roy does not know, and if he does not know, he has reason to hesitate, not to attack.


You completely ignored the psychosis part, which definitely makes her more likely to attack.
Now by the very act of saying "likely", you have destroyed any case Roy had for a self defense plea. He needs "certain" here.
But you are claiming a high degree of knowledge of her mental state, which is simply not knowledge we can confidently claim to know that well.


And confusion would indeed make her more likely to attack. When a person is under that kind of stress, their body prepares for battle ("fight or flight"). Heart rate increases, adrenaline starts flowing, etc.
Now assuming accuracy from stick figures is clearly pushing it, but Miko staggers down the steps in 408. Her body is simply not prepared for battle at all. She does not have her normal frown, rather a bewildered expression. It's hard to see how she could be drawn less threatening and still have a weapon.


I'm not going to say you are definitely wrong on that, because I know very little of the rules of D&D. However, it sounds a little flimsy to me. One action is immediate? Say someone breaks into your house and shoots at you, so you hide and grab your gun. Let's say that he's far enough away that it would take 2 actions for him to find and shoot you, but you have a clear shot at him right now. Would shooting him now qualify as self-defense?
That depends. The very fact there will be another round makes self defense shaky. And a difference between cases is you are talking home, while Roy is in a public area. That gives him sharply less justification in most US jurisdictions at least.


Increasing one person's danger while decreasing the danger to others, such as the guards that Miko would have to get through while escaping (and would almost certainly have to fight). Belkar (as a high-level character) has a better chance of surviving until Roy can get there than the guards would.
But we have even less evidence that Miko is a danger to these guards. In fact, the presumption is that she is none at all. By contrast, she is eager to kill Belkar


Even a murderer's life is worth something. Perhaps Roy was confident enough he could take Miko without anyone else getting hurt as long as he got in the first shot while she was still collecting herself?
Again a "perhaps". One requiring precision thinking out of Roy, followed by some distinctly dumb thinking.
But if we say a murderer's life is worth something, we are denying the right to attack here at all.


The last strike defeated Miko but didn't kill her. It was also with the flat of the blade (or else it would have cut instead of slammed). That's pretty much the definition of non-lethal damage, right? And he did that AFTER seeing Miko beating on Hinjo. If he was calm enough to attack her with non-lethal damage after that, then he was definitely calm enough to do it before.
This is taking dramatics as fact. Flat or blade, there was no way Roy should have knocked her to the wall under D&D rules. It simply does not happen. So the scene is simply there for the dramatic effect, not as a proper rendition of what happened.

Time for bed. So to be continued tomorrow

[Roderick_BR]

Well, anyway, things are not looking so bad. Roy already went over his two biggest problems: How he treated Elan, and Belkar's action under his command.
He claimed that resisting arrest was legal because they didn't acknowledge Mike as legitimate authority, since she was not acting very paladin-ish (the real way, not like most players/DMs expect paladins to be).
Eugene's trick in the court is his problem, not Roy's.
What next? Beating a fallen paladin. That may be what'll give him problem. He'll either be excused for attacking a potential threat, that had just murdered an aged, innocent, and unarmed person, or he'll have problems for not addressing it in a better way. Hmm.. that involved a follower from the 12 gods. Maybe they'll make an appeal about it? I don't know how they treat inter-religion jurisdiction there.

[Catch]

Y'know, since Miko bit the dust, I figured the OOTS forums would have scraped together some semblance of rational reasoning. Ah well, lemme throw my two coppers in here before I get dragged away by Miko's honor guard.

First of all, Miko is not a "victim" of Roy. Apprehending a crazed murderer is both a lawful and good act. Enjoying it isn't a sin. Roy also intervened to save Hinjo from Miko which is also a good and lawful act. He even spared her life so she could be brought to justice.

Let's look at the logic here. Roy is "evil" for defeating a murderer and preventing her from committing a second? For hurting her feelings? Please. The hero can't taunt the villain all of a sudden, it seems. What about all the mean things Roy has said to Nale? Or Xykon?

Forgive me for being brief, but this is just ludicrous. Miko was out-of-her-mind murderous and a dangerous threat. Roy stopped her and committed no wrong while doing so. Pedantry won't bring redeem Miko, folks. She dug her own grave.

[Ceaon]

If you enjoy the story more with Roy as a bad guy, than by all means, do so.
I however, enjoy seeing Roy as a Lawful Good, maybe a bit rash, hero and PC.

[webgem]

Well, I'd just like to chime in on that last little bit about the flat of the blade not being able to knock her into the wall. D&D has no rules on how damage actually affects things that way as far as I know. So if you are playing a wildly action packed game where things are way over the top to begin with perhaps this is nearly possible, if not completely true to fact. So lets say that in this world Roy did enough damage with the flat of the blade to send her bouncing into the wall, based on whatever rules the DM of this world creates. Now if he hadn't used the flat of the blade, an option he has, I suggest that there would have been enough damage to cut the lady in half. I have no way of knowing this for sure with out knowing more, but when he attacked the dragon he cut his head off. Not an exact factor, but I submit conjecture.

Also as far as I can tell he only has to convince that gall that he's in the right and he's golden.

[Furin_Mirado]

On the Roy attacking Miko issue and whether that will keep him out of the LG paradise, here's what I think:
He'll have to show his defense for committing assault and battery. It would not be attempted murder because he never intended to kill her, only subdue her. This is evident by the fact that he knocked her out at the end and the fact that earlier Hinjo said this was not the time to 'batter [her] into submission'. This supports the idea that at least some of those attack previously were nonlethal and Hinjo could tell.

So on to Roy's defense against assault and battery. Actually it shouldn't even be called that since that implies that American laws apply and we're not just look at a man's moral record from a D&D alignments standpoint. Miko committed murder and then picked up her sword again. It's my understanding that when someone commits a murder then someone (ideally the police/guards/whatever) needs to apprehend that person so they can go to jail and attend the subsequent trial. Roy was the only person in the room capable of apprehending her at that moment. He chose to do so by force. He is justified because his past relationship with Miko makes parlay impossible. Therefore he battered her into submission despite the fact that she was bringing lethal force against him, thus putting his own life in danger.

It looks like Roy followed his alignment well and I see no reason why this act should count against him. Even the best arguments against him makes this an ambiguous situation which isn't going to count for much as far as getting into the afterlife especially given that assault and battery are minor crimes.

[malakim2099]

Y'know, since Miko bit the dust, I figured the OOTS forums would have scraped together some semblance of rational reasoning. Ah well, lemme throw my two coppers in here before I get dragged away by Miko's honor guard.

First of all, Miko is not a "victim" of Roy. Apprehending a crazed murderer is both a lawful and good act. Enjoying it isn't a sin. Roy also intervened to save Hinjo from Miko which is also a good and lawful act. He even spared her life so she could be brought to justice.

Let's look at the logic here. Roy is "evil" for defeating a murderer and preventing her from committing a second? For hurting her feelings? Please. The hero can't taunt the villain all of a sudden, it seems. What about all the mean things Roy has said to Nale? Or Xykon?

Forgive me for being brief, but this is just ludicrous. Miko was out of her mind murderous and a dangerous threat. Roy stopped her and committed no wrong while doing so. Pedantry won't bring redeem Miko, folks. She dug her own grave.

Quoted for Truth. If Roy can hang out with Belkar and not have that count against him, I doubt the round-and-round argument about whether or not him beating the hell out of a homicidal ex-paladin would count against him either. Maybe a small slap on the wrist for enjoying it too much for the Miko fans. :smallamused:

Honestly, the AC, in retrospect, was a no-win scenario, considering the sheer amount of force that was thrown up against the AC and the OOTS. To say nothing of the fact that the MITD (which is insanely powerful whatever it is) did NOTHING. And Xykon probably would have set him loose if things started to go really far south.

NOTE: Even if Soon had dispatched Xykon and Redcloak, there's still the matter of having 20,000 hobgoblins running amok in your city. At that point, you might manage a counterstrike IF you have the right forces, but even then Hinjo didn't have much available to him. Considering that Soon was bound to the gem, it isn't very probable he could have left the throneroom to help lead the charge.

[Porthos]

Honestly, the AC, in retrospect, was a no-win scenario, considering the sheer amount of force that was thrown up against the AC and the OOTS.

Actually, quite a few of us thought this was a no-win situation from the get-go (and said as much to anyone who would listen). :smalltongue: Personally, I thought that Azure City would be a smoking crater by the time Xykon was done with it.

Heck, I'm still surprised that the battle was as close as it was. By all rights, Team Evil should have mopped the floor with the Azure City Defenses. The fact that Team Gate came within six seconds of victory (while the hobgoblin army would have been troublesome, I feel the loss of Redcloak and Xykon would have been a crushing blow to Team Evil) is a flat out miracle.

IMO, at least. :smallwink:

[Shatteredtower]

Y'know, since Miko bit the dust, I figured the OOTS forums would have scraped together some semblance of rational reasoning.Yeah, in absence of an argument, let's start by declaring those who disagree with us irrational. Nothing intellectually dishonest about that...


First of all, Miko is not a "victim" of Roy.Did Roy strike her? Yes, he did. Therefore, whether you are capable of accepting it or not, she is indeed his victim. It may have proven necessary, but it was not necessary at the time.


Apprehending a crazed murderer is both a lawful and good act.Once again, the ends do not justify the means. You might as well have said that Roy would have been justified in bringing the throne room down on Miko at the cost of a half dozen lives.

Roy attacked a murderer, but if anyone was crazed at that point, it would have been him.


Enjoying it isn't a sin.It is when you are acting out of a desire to beat on someone you don't like and rationalizing that you are acting in the interests of self defense and justice.


Roy also intervened to save Hinjo from Miko which is also a good and lawful act.Yes, because it's a lawful and good act to pull people out of the building you just torched.


He even spared her life so she could be brought to justice.But not before smacking her around while she was still reeling, with no regard to the consequences to others.


Let's look at the logic here.That would be easier if any had been offered.


Roy is "evil" for defeating a murderer and preventing her from committing a second?No one ever made this argument. Roy is lawful good, and performing a few evil actions does not change this. The actions, however, are still tainted with evil behaviour.


For hurting her feelings? Please. The hero can't taunt the villain all of a sudden, it seems. What about all the mean things Roy has said to Nale? Or Xykon?When Roy commits sexual harrassesment against Nale or Xykon, let me know. It won't excuse him here, however, nor does trivializing what he's done.


Forgive me for being brief...Not brief enough, considering how many times we've been over these arguments.


Miko was out-of-her-mind...False. Confused, sure, but that doesn't justify assault.


...murderous...False. Oh, she was certainly in a murderous state when she struck Shojo, but not when Roy attacked her.


...and a dangerous threat.False. She wasn't threatening anyone when Roy attacked.


Roy stopped her and committed no wrong while doing so.False. Roy provoked further violence for no good cause. As a result of his actions, Hinjo was placed at greater risk than would have been the case if Roy had showed some self-control.


Pedantry won't bring redeem Miko, folks.This is about Roy, not Miko.

[Twilight Jack]

I've bowed out of this thread, as it has become a bit of a carousel. I do have a minor quibble with your last post, though, Shatteredtower.


This is about Roy, not Miko.

It was about Roy. Now it's about Roy and Miko. By the time we hit page 15-20, it will be completely about Miko.

As any discussion on these forums in which Miko is even tangentially involved grows longer, the probability of Miko-debate taking over the entire thread approaches one.

[Catch]

Yeah, in absence of an argument, let's start by declaring those who disagree with us irrational. Nothing intellectually dishonest about that...

I call 'em as I see 'em. Forgive me if I've not been indoctrinated into the art of Miko apologetics; I suppose I'd be more susceptible to stretches of belief.



Did Roy strike her? Yes, he did. Therefore, whether you are capable of accepting it or not, she is indeed his victim. It may have proven necessary, but it was not necessary at the time.

Did she kill Shojo? Therefore, whether you are capable of accepting it or not, she is a murderer. At that point, she lost her rights to being any sort of victim.

Look waaaay back. Who consistently has attacked whom? Every time, Miko has been the aggressor and she has never been in the right. Her skewed version of paladin morality isn't justification for that.



Once again, the ends do not justify the means. You might as well have said that Roy would have been justified in bringing the throne room down on Miko at the cost of a half dozen lives.

That's not a means-ends situation. She murdered someone. Roy stopped her using (mostly) non-lethal force.



Roy attacked a murderer, but if anyone was crazed at that point, it would have been him.

Right, because Miko's been the poster girl for rationality since her appearance.




It is when you are acting out of a desire to beat on someone you don't like and rationalizing that you are acting in the interests of self defense and justice.

Like when Miko tried to murder Belkar? Twice.



Yes, because it's a lawful and good act to pull people out of the building you just torched.

Bad example. Moving on.



But not before smacking her around while she was still reeling, with no regard to the consequences to others.

What consequences? She just hacked Shojo in half. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that she wouldn't--and didn't--go quietly.



That would be easier if any had been offered.

Cute.



No one ever made this argument. Roy is lawful good, and performing a few evil actions does not change this. The actions, however, are still tainted with evil behaviour.

Evil such as what, disliking someone? Let's face the facts here. Attacking someone in anger while furthering the cause of good and justice isn't limited to Roy, it's Miko's bag too. She had a personal bone to pick with the Order of the Stick and took great pleasure in attempting their execution. The only difference here is that Roy was justified and Miko only thought she was.



When Roy commits sexual harrassesment against Nale or Xykon, let me know. It won't excuse him here, however, nor does trivializing what he's done.

Boo hoo. I didn't see Miko very torn up about it and I think she's quite capable of defending her own honor all by herself. If insults are evil, Mt. Celestia must be awfully lonely.



False. Confused, sure, but that doesn't justify assault.

It also doesn't justify dicing Shojo and attempting to do the same to Hinjo.



False. Oh, she was certainly in a murderous state when she struck Shojo, but not when Roy attacked her.

She got her wind back real quick once there was another warm body to displace her faults on.



False. She wasn't threatening anyone when Roy attacked.

A murderer is always a threat.



False. Roy provoked further violence for no good cause. As a result of his actions, Hinjo was placed at greater risk than would have been the case if Roy had showed some self-control.

So there should have been an extra panel:

:roy: "Oh, hello there Miko. Might I inquire as to why you've just murdered the Lord of Azure City? I'm certain you're not completely off your rocker and have a completely valid reason for butchering Shojo."

:miko: "YOU! Of course! It's all YOUR fault!"



This is about Roy, not Miko.

This is about ignoring Miko's faults and inventing a few for Roy. So yes.

EDIT: I really don't want to get involved in this debate, really. There's always going to be Miko loyalists, I suppose, and no amount of argument from either camp is going to sway the other. I'd forgotten what a Sisyphean endeavor it was. Have fun with your sandbox; I'm gonna be over on the swings.

[David Argall]

Let's start with the basics. Roy says...
“All that matters to me right now is that you just killed…which means I am kicking your fallen ass right now!”

This simply negates all claim of all forms of self defense. And in the LG setting, it also negates any claim of arrest. Roy stands convicted of battery, and frankly of attempted murder.

We add in that Miko was just standing there. She was of course guilty of murder, but to justify attacking, we need a clear and immediate danger. Her danger is neither.



Whom she attacked, despite the fact that by her own admission she did not believe him to be evil. If she's willing to attack someone whom even SHE does not believe to be evil simply because she thinks he is going to take her to "tainted courts", why would the amount of people telling her to do that make any difference in her action?
People do give in to majority opinion. Miko would not be as easy to persuade as the average person, but she would be amazing if she wasn't influenced by voice after voice telling her to yield.
And it would appear it would have taken very little to tip the balance here. Despite the attack by Roy, she almost surrenders. So why should we not think that she would have surrendered if Roy had not angered her further?



Roy is definitely higher level than Hinjo (and therefore O'Chul, since Hinjo was specifically stated to be the 2nd highest level paladin before Miko fell). We don't know for sure what level either of those two are, though. Judging by how easily Hinjo got his butt kicked, it wouldn't be a stretch at all to think that if the battle began as Hinjo and Roy vs Miko that Miko might've been able to kill Hinjo before the fight ended.
She might, but of course she might well have anyway. And this requires she focus all of her attacks on Hinjo, instead of on the hated Roy. It might be the better strategy, but it hardly seems to be the one she would follow.
However, even if she does focus on Hinjo, the two fights are about of the same length [when we remove talking], which makes the strategy unlikely to work in any case. And the two fighters will have the advantage of flanking, which works out to more damage faster.



"Realizes there is no hope"? Yep, that sounds like Miko.
Which means it will take a little longer. You string it out long enough and everybody surrenders. Sometimes the law gets impatient first, but they do give in eventually.



All Miko has to do is find the lowest-level character in the battle and kill them before she gets taken out and suddenly Roy's solution becomes the better one.
Yet you are forced to assert this is what she will do. But what makes you think she will? Recall here that even after the attack on Hinjo, Soon shows us Miko is not evil. Yet you are having her attack people almost at random.



Wait. We're going to assume that Hinjo has other thoughts that he's not going to mention because he's too worried about Shojo, but we're not going to extend that same benefit of the doubt to Roy and instead just assume that he didn't have any other thoughts on the matter that he didn't mention
As the quote above tells us, there were no other thoughts of note in the case of Roy. We do not have the same assurance in the case of Hinjo. Moreover, Roy's actions are consistent with his words. He has no reason to be wrong here. Hinjo has both possible mistake and motive to deceive. We do not assume he is lying, but we do know we can't rely on him as fully as we accept Roy here.



What should he have said?
If he wanted to arrest her "Miko, you are under arrest for the murder of Shojo. Drop your weapon and come along."
If he wanted to plea self defense, he need say nothing, just stand ready and allow her to make a clearly aggressive move.



when he attacked the dragon he cut his head off.
As with Miko, the game rules don't really allow him to do this. There are ways to manage this at least, but they are unlikely to apply here. Instead the event is plot/joke driven. It was a reasonable joke to have this futile action accidentally rescue V. And it was good special effects to bounce Miko off the wall. Neither can really be used to tell us much about Roy's sword.



Did she kill Shojo? Therefore, whether you are capable of accepting it or not, she is a murderer. At that point, she lost her rights to being any sort of victim.
Quite wrong. She is subject to trial and punishment of course, but there are very large numbers of ways of being a victim, including being attacked by some friend of Shojo's.



Look waaaay back. Who consistently has attacked whom? Every time, Miko has been the aggressor and she has never been in the right.
Let's see. She attacked the ogres, and was clearly in the right
She attacked Belkar right after he got out of jail, again clearly in the right even if we say she eventually went too far.
She was attacked by Redcloak, and again was in the right.



That's not a means-ends situation. She murdered someone. Roy stopped her using (mostly) non-lethal force.
But Roy was not trying to stop her. He was just trying to beat her up. And this claim of non-lethal force is simply a fantasy.



Like when Miko tried to murder Belkar? Twice.
We are trying to discuss Roy's sins here.



What consequences? She just hacked Shojo in half. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that she wouldn't--and didn't--go quietly.
But she almost did, and it's easy to think that the anger from Roy's attack was the straw that pushed her over the edge.



Evil such as what, disliking someone? Let's face the facts here. Attacking someone in anger while furthering the cause of good and justice isn't limited to Roy, it's Miko's bag too. She had a personal bone to pick with the Order of the Stick and took great pleasure in attempting their execution. The only difference here is that Roy was justified and Miko only thought she was.
No, neither was justified. And Roy may be the less justified. He was trying to hurt somebody, nothing else, which is flat out evil. Not always major evil, but still evil. Miko, to the extent we deem her ravings to be a serious representation of her [lack of?] thinking, is trying to do the right thing.



It also doesn't justify dicing Shojo and attempting to do the same to Hinjo.
True, but irrelevant. We, again, are discussing Roy's sins.



A murderer is always a threat.
Nonsense. There is about 50,000 murderers in the U.S. who have been released from jail [mostly for completed sentences]. Feel threatened? Don't. You are in more danger of being knocked off by your spouse, lover, or even friends.

So there should have been an extra panel:

"Oh, hello there Miko. Might I inquire as to why you've just murdered the Lord of Azure City?



"YOU! Of course! It's all YOUR fault!"
If the writer wanted to project a perfect Roy, definitely. If the writer wanted to show a mortal who could make mistakes, get mad and do something he should not, no.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Miko lovers tend to go crazy in alignment threads. Acting like Roy was some chaotic evil bastard that beat the hazzuzah out of a poor innocent confused paladin. Miko did go nuts people, get over it. Stopping her from murdering Hinjo was a good action. It really doesn't matter if she lost her weapon in the middle of the fight or anything. A battle is a battle.. she would have killed Roy if he didn't beat her up first.

[The Wanderer]

Let's start with the basics. Roy says...
“All that matters to me right now is that you just killed…which means I am kicking your fallen ass right now!”

This simply negates all claim of all forms of self defense. And in the LG setting, it also negates any claim of arrest. Roy stands convicted of battery, and frankly of attempted murder.

We add in that Miko was just standing there. She was of course guilty of murder, but to justify attacking, we need a clear and immediate danger. Her danger is neither.

So... when someone who has assaulted you before with little reason or provocation, and the intent to kill you, (despite the specific order of her liege to take you alive) who has sworn to get even with you, said she "prays that that it be her hand that deals the final blow so that I may feel your sin-stained blood spilled on the cold ground", goes completely crazy, kills her liege lord in front of you... there's absolutely no threat to you? :smallconfused:

Strangely enough, if Roy had killed Shojo in front of Miko, something tells me you would have no problem with her cutting Roy down right there. Yet Roy attacking Miko, or even speaking to her is bad.

[thereaper]

To be honest, I'm growing a bit tired with this debate.

On the one hand, Argall, you appear to have a better understanding of real-life self-defense laws than I do. On the other, even if it could be demonstrated that Roy's acts cannot be justified legally, there isn't evidence one way or another as to what the laws in Azure City are. There's a few holes here and there in both of our arguments.

So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and just say that his actions were chaotic.

[David Argall]

So... when someone who has assaulted you before with little reason or provocation, and the intent to kill you, (despite the specific order of her liege to take you alive) who has sworn to get even with you, said she "prays that that it be her hand that deals the final blow so that I may feel your sin-stained blood spilled on the cold ground", goes completely crazy, kills her liege lord in front of you... there's absolutely no threat to you?
Legally speaking? No. None that justifies violent self defense, which is the claim here. There is threat, and justification for various defensive measures, but "threatened men live long lives." The mere existance of threat is not sufficient to justify attack. That would change the situation from possible violence to certain violence. So the threat level must be very high, and immediate. In Roy's case, it was obviously not immediate, and all the claim that Miko was crazy mean that the threat level could not be high enough for legal purposes.

Now we can note the first attempt to kill was followed by reasonably friendly relations, so it can be largely disregarded here.


Strangely enough, if Roy had killed Shojo in front of Miko, something tells me you would have no problem with her cutting Roy down right there. Yet Roy attacking Miko, or even speaking to her is bad.
I would plea not guilty. Now it is to be noted that Miko is an officer of the court, and thus has a duty to arrest Roy. That gives her a much greater right/duty to use violence in order to carry out that duty. But if we had a fully parallel situation, Miko would merely have the duty to arrest, not to damage, until Roy resisted arrest.

[Deathwisher]

At least Roy limits the amount of violence he uses. He knocks Miko down, then holds off. She gets up and couterattacks. He knocks her down again and stands back, she counterattacks again.

Roy never hits her when she is down. An example Miko might benefit from, since she makes quite habit of it: Roy, Belkar, Shojo, Hinjo...

[Catch]

Oooh! Oooh! Tag me in!


But Roy was not trying to stop her. He was just trying to beat her up. And this claim of non-lethal force is simply a fantasy.

Prove it. Had his entire goal been to hurt Miko--here's a revelation for you--he would have, and a lot sooner. I still maintain that Roy's not in the wrong here. Initially, Roy didn't even want to be involved in the dispute between Shojo and Miko / Hinjo. He doesn't even jump to his own defense when she turned the blame on him. Roy only got involved after Miko killed Shojo for no good reason (as if there's justification for hastily-generalized murder). At that point, Miko went from being inconvenient and near-sighted to crazed and murderous. Roy no longer had any obligation to pleasantry or pacifism. You don't make nice-nice with the wackjob with a newfound penchant for regicide. You don't ask questions, you don't offer hugs or a shoulder to cry on.

Roy is not wrong for attacking Miko. At all.

Hinjo himself said it: "To my knowledge, Roy hasn't done anything wrong other than breaking an oath he never made."

Roy stopped a murderer and he did so using mostly non-lethal force, whether that's convenient to your apology or not. His personal distaste for Miko is entirely irrelevant in this matter because it was not the reason for their battle. He took her down quickly and with minimal harm to her. Even more importantly, I reiterate, if he had wanted to harm her--out of spite or otherwise--he would have. And he didn't.

It wasn't "I hate you so I'm going to hurt you," it was "You committed murder, I'm taking you down."

Huge difference.

[Shatteredtower]

I call 'em as I see 'em. Forgive me if I've not been indoctrinated into the art of Miko apologetics; I suppose I'd be more susceptible to stretches of belief.What part of, "Miko was wrong to kill Shojo, but that does not excuse Roy's actions," is an apology for Miko, pray? No, no. If it's time for apologetics to stop, it's with the ones people keep making for Roy.


Did she kill Shojo? Therefore, whether you are capable of accepting it or not, she is a murderer.We've already established that she commited murder. Don't pretend anyone's claimed otherwise.


At that point, she lost her rights to being any sort of victim.Uh, no. That sort of self-justification is irresponsible and evil. Vengeance isn't justice, and it's certainly not admirable.


Look waaaay back. Who consistently has attacked whom?Mr. Argall took care of this argument quite nicely.


That's not a means-ends situation. She murdered someone. Roy stopped her using (mostly) non-lethal force.Roy provoked a fight he was confident he could win. In the process, he created a rift between himself and Hinjo, the highest authority in the room, making said authority's efforts to resolve the matter peacefully that much harder and more hazardous -- and he put Belkar into the line of fire. And let's not forget what he said, either.

Those were Roy's means. It's a good thing Miko was obsessed enough with Belkar and that Hinjo was more concerned for the safety of the halfling than Roy was, or the ends would have seen her on a series of wanted posters. Or should we congratulate Roy for the tactical genius required to deliberately set that up?

It's also a good thing she didn't actually want him dead.


Right, because Miko's been the poster girl for rationality since her appearance.Irrelevant. Roy was not attacking a crazed individual. Of the two, at that moment, he was closer to fitting the bill.


Like when Miko tried to murder Belkar? Twice.In other words, you believe Roy was in the wrong. I mean, if it's wrong for Miko against a clearly evil opponent, it's wrong for Roy.


Bad example. Moving on.No, it's quite valid. Roy is responsible for provoking further violence. He is therefore responsible for where it leads. Putting an end to it does not absolve him of the fact.


What consequences?Once more: It placed Hinjo and Roy at odds, with greater risk to both of them. It reduced any hope of a peaceful resolution, let alone cooperation.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that she wouldn't--and didn't--go quietly.Considering how close she came to doing just that even after Roy attacked her, that's an awfully shaky limb.

Roy had nothing to lose by holding his attack -- except the certainty that he'd get to smack Miko around some.


Evil such as what, disliking someone?Evil such as putting your desire to smack someone around ahead of concerns for the safety and welfare of others, both individuals and organizations.


Attacking someone in anger while furthering the cause of good and justice isn't limited to Roy, it's Miko's bag too.Except that Roy did not attack Miko in the cause of good and justice. He attacked her because he saw an excuse for kicking her around and took it.

Miko attacked Roy three times: when she thought she was dealing with an evil criminal (supported by her investigations) who wasn't about to surrender (though she should have let him finish that sentence), when he made it abundantly clear that the only way he was going to face trial was in chains, and when he declared his intention to harbour a murderer from her.

Regarding the last of those incidents, there's no question that Belkar played her masterfully. It does not absolve her of responsibility for her excesses, however, and it was fortunate for her that Shojo intervened when he did.

And again, if it would have been evil for Miko, it was evil for Roy.


She had a personal bone to pick with the Order of the Stick and took great pleasure in attempting their execution.Really? When did she attempt to execute them?


The only difference here is that Roy was justified and Miko only thought she was.While there is some truth to this claim about Miko, there's none in the claim about Roy.


Boo hoo. I didn't see Miko very torn up about it and I think she's quite capable of defending her own honor all by herself. If insults are evil, Mt. Celestia must be awfully lonely.Justifying sexual harrassment as acceptable now? Nice.

Miko reacted to the insinuations about her sex life with enough anger to knock him senseless for a moment. Furthermore -- and this should be self-evident, being able to defend herself from the attack does not justify the attack. If a 70-year-old man throws an egg carton at a kickboxer a third his age, the kickboxer is still justified in charging the elder man with assault. Breaking both his arms and legs? Not so much.

Certainly, if Miko had come straight off the throne at anyone, Roy would have been justified in swinging at her, but he still cannot be excused for making the comments he did.


It also doesn't justify dicing Shojo and attempting to do the same to Hinjo.Again, that has nothing to do with whether or not Roy's behaviour was justified.


She got her wind back real quick once there was another warm body to displace her faults on.If you don't recover quickly in the face of an actual threat -- such as some guy swinging a sword at you -- you tend to wind up dead.

It was wrong of her to attempt to blame the whole thing on Roy, sure. It most certainly was not wrong of her to defend herself against the man who'd just declared, "Which means I am kicking your fallen ass RIGHT NOW!"

That's a declaration of intent to commit assault. There's no interest expressed in persuading her to surrender, not even by means of force.


A murderer is always a threat.So much for logic. Thank you, Mr. Argall, for pointing out exactly how absurd this claim is.


So there should have been an extra panel:

:roy: "Oh, hello there Miko. Might I inquire as to why you've just murdered the Lord of Azure City? I'm certain you're not completely off your rocker and have a completely valid reason for butchering Shojo."

:miko: "YOU! Of course! It's all YOUR fault!"Yeah, let's pretend that Roy's only other option was to be an idiot. If that's what it takes to justify what Roy did, you've already lost.

All Roy needed to do to have been in the right here was to have kept his sword ready to strike and said, "Miko, put the sword down." Certainly, he could expand upon the wording, but that would have been sufficient -- and he'd have been ready to strike the first blow in the event that Miko had become violent again on her own.


This is about ignoring Miko's faults...Actually, it's about pretending that anyone's ignoring her faults, because that's an easier argument. Of course, since no one is ignoring her faults, it's also a dishonest one.


...and inventing a few for Roy.No need; it's right there on the page, as much as some need to trivialize or deny it. Roy is perfectly capable of being lawful good and the hero and behaving in an unacceptable manner -- as long as you don't need everything in perfect black and white, kind of like Miko did.


I do have a minor quibble with your last post, though, Shatteredtower.

It was about Roy. Now it's about Roy and Miko. By the time we hit page 15-20, it will be completely about Miko.Duly noted. And thank you for the warning.


Miko lovers tend to go crazy in alignment threads.Yes, please continue to misrepresent the situation in lieu of making a case for Roy.


Acting like Roy was some chaotic evil bastard that beat the hazzuzah out of a poor innocent confused paladin.I would like to assume that people who make this argument have simply misunderstood, but since the mistake has been corrected over and over again, it's hard to attribute it to anything but dishonesty.

Both David Argall and myself have stated that it Miko was guilty of murdering Shojo and that it was an evil act. We have also made it clear that we consider Roy to be a good and lawful guy.

Somehow, though, we keep hearing the accusation that taking Roy to task for unacceptable behaviour means we're arguing that Roy is absolutely evil and Miko was innocent of any wrongdoing.

Ironically, that is the sort of argument I'd expect from Miko, arguing that one side must be entirely in the right and the other entirely in the wrong. It's relentlessly black and white, to the point that gross mispresentation of the counterargument (which can be summarized as, "Two wrongs don't make a right.") has become the linchpin of too many arguments.


Miko did go nuts people, get over it.So, if I was to accept your argument that Miko was crazy, you're saying it's that there's nothing evil about bashing her about the head and making sexually-laden taunts against her?

Because where I come from, we look down on that sort of behaviour.

Roy didn't attack Miko for being crazy. Get over it.


Stopping her from murdering Hinjo was a good action.Sure. That does not absolve him from having created the situation in the first place.


It really doesn't matter if she lost her weapon in the middle of the fight or anything.Roy didn't attack Miko in the middle of a fight. He created the fight.


A battle is a battle.. she would have killed Roy if he didn't beat her up first.Wrong. We saw her attempt to flee the room after stunning him.

[Deathwisher]

Let's start with the basics. Roy says...
“All that matters to me right now is that you just killed…which means I am kicking your fallen ass right now!”

This simply negates all claim of all forms of self defense. And in the LG setting, it also negates any claim of arrest. Roy stands convicted of battery, and frankly of attempted murder.


He stops the moment she falls down. If he was attempting murder he could simply strike her again. Power attack on a foe lying down....
Of course, that is the sort of thing Miko makes a habit of, but somehow that doesn't seem to matter.



People do give in to majority opinion. Miko would not be as easy to persuade as the average person, but she would be amazing if she wasn't influenced by voice after voice telling her to yield.
And it would appear it would have taken very little to tip the balance here. Despite the attack by Roy, she almost surrenders. So why should we not think that she would have surrendered if Roy had not angered her further?


You are joking, right? Miko give in to majority opinion? When has Miko ever changed her opinion because of any outside influcence. Hinjo is giving her every opportunity and she still attacks him. That, incidentally is an additional problem: reasoning with Miko carries a considerable health hazard. If you don't convince her, you die.



Yet you are forced to assert this is what she will do. But what makes you think she will? Recall here that even after the attack on Hinjo, Soon shows us Miko is not evil. Yet you are having her attack people almost at random.


Soon is talking to a dying person, who tried to do the right thing no matter how misguided it was. His words are generally kind, but even he points out that she seems incapable of even considering the possibility that she might have been wrong. Which incidentally, is yet another point against the possibility that she might have been convinced to surrender.




Let's see. She attacked the ogres, and was clearly in the right
She attacked Belkar right after he got out of jail, again clearly in the right even if we say she eventually went too far.
She was attacked by Redcloak, and again was in the right.

She tried to used lethal force on Roy when he was down on the ground and helpless, she tried to use lethal frce on Belkar when he was down on the ground and helpless, she used lethal force on Shojo who was old, unarmed and sitting in a chair, she tried to use lethal force on Hinjo, after attacking him without provocation.
Funny, I seem to be detecting a pattern here. Yet when Roy is fighting wth her, he stops each time she falls down and allows her to get up again.



But Roy was not trying to stop her. He was just trying to beat her up. And this claim of non-lethal force is simply a fantasy.


Then why didn't he finish her of when she fell down he first time?



No, neither was justified. And Roy may be the less justified. He was trying to hurt somebody, nothing else, which is flat out evil. Not always major evil, but still evil. Miko, to the extent we deem her ravings to be a serious representation of her [lack of?] thinking, is trying to do the right thing.


He is hurting a murderer and when Miko does that to Belkar you consider his crimes to be a justification. Double standard? I don't remember Belkar killing unarmed old men either.

[Shatteredtower]

Roy never hits her when she is down.Sorry. That's a good argument, but I'm afraid it's not true. Last panel of the sixth line here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html).

I mean, sure, he doesn't actually hit her in that panel, but that's because she's parrying his swing (made from behind her) -- not the other way around.

[Deathwisher]

Sorry. That's a good argument, but I'm afraid it's not true. Last panel of the sixth line here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html).

I mean, sure, he doesn't actually hit her in that panel, but that's because she's parrying his swing (made from behind her) -- not the other way around.

Maybe, but she is up on her knees again and holding a sword. I think I can make a point that she is trying to get up and that he is just making sure she stays down.

[Vulion]

Maybe, but she is up on her knees again and holding a sword. I think I can make a point that she is trying to get up and that he is just making sure she stays down.

Could be that he blocked an attack she made.

[turkishproverb]

Could be that he blocked an attack she made.

thats what I assumed. Asian sword strikes tend to look alot like blocks when parried, and she DID claim to be a samuri...

[Maratanos]

Let me just say, for the record, and dredging things up a bit, that anyone with even a single shred of sentience will realize Miko was* bonkers (or at least highly delusional) if they see the entire picture.


Yes, I'm talking about her absurdly unrealistic viewpoints as expressed in the intro to the Start of Darkness.

Allow me to juxtapose some quotes here.

(The rest of the post is in spoilers because of SoD content)

"I know, personally, that the good and caring impulses of the human heart will always win out over any evil tendencies."

vs. Pretty much all of the Start of Darkness


"All evil creatures are uniformly and irredeemably evil"

vs. Right-eye. He classifies as evil simply because he's a goblin and he went along with Redcloak's deicidal scheme for quite some time. Was he still evil at the end of the story? Unlikely.


"Every being of the same alignment is indistinguishable from one another"

vs. "That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital 'E' and your whiny, 'evil, but for a good cause,' crap."


"Just as my fellow paladins and I are always in agreement about every aspect of our duties and how they should be carried out."

vs. "Let's just say there's a reason Miko gets picked for long missions. In foreign countries. Which keep her away from home for months at a time."


"The author [of the Start of Darkness] is obviously an agent of the Lower Planes himself"

vs. Rich Burlew, who isn't.


"It is well known that the alignment is the be-all and end-all of how characters should act."

vs. "You didn't think a Lawful Good government automatically meant free speech, did you?" and Celia's closing argument


* I say "was" because Miko apparently started thinking a little bit more about her actions right before she died.

[Shatteredtower]

Could be that he blocked an attack she made.
thats what I assumed. Asian sword strikes tend to look alot like blocks when parried, and she DID claim to be a samuri...The lines of motion indicate that Roy is chopping down toward Miko, while her own move is an arc that never comes close to Roy.

Maybe Roy's backed away since the last panel, but if so, there'd be no need to parry -- and certainly no need to overextend his swing like that to do it. The same scene can as easily be achieved by Miko pivoting around one foot to gain some distance from Roy and block the swing he'd been aiming where she'd been seconds before, a setup that makes tactical sense for both participants in the combat.


Had his entire goal been to hurt Miko--here's a revelation for you--he would have, and a lot sooner.Sure, if he was chaotic evil. Instead, he waits for the first excuse he can grab.


Initially, Roy didn't even want to be involved in the dispute between Shojo and Miko / Hinjo.Avoiding the risk of coming between Hinjo (and the Sapphire Guard) and Shojo (and Azure City) had nothing to do with that, I'm sure.


Roy only got involved after Miko killed Shojo for no good reason (as if there's justification for hastily-generalized murder).And put his wishes ahead of any other consideration.


At that point, Miko went from being inconvenient and near-sighted to crazed and murderous.Even if she hit that state while executing Shojo, Roy wasn't attacking someone who was either crazed or murderous.


Roy no longer had any obligation to pleasantry or pacifism.No one claimed he did. He still have the obligation to behave responsibly, however. Attacking someone in a state of shock on your own initiative without any regard for the opinions of the city official standing nearby doesn't cut it.

By all means, he was within his rights to ready an attack and demand that Miko surrender. He could even have called her a bitch again, for all I care, though I'd rather he didn't. I want to admire Roy, I really do -- but I'm not going to do it when he's behaving poorly.


You don't make nice-nice with the wackjob with a newfound penchant for regicide.Miko's reaction makes a lie out of this statement. I don't see her drawing up a list of rulers to visit.


Hinjo himself said it: "To my knowledge, Roy hasn't done anything wrong other than breaking an oath he never made."Yeah, let's leave out what he said after that, which is more relevant to the situation. You know, the stuff that earned him Belkar's seal of approval?


Roy stopped a murderer and he did so using mostly non-lethal force...Bull. Flaming weapons, skewering thrusts, and a parried slice against her back do not constitute non-lethal force.


...whether that's convenient to your apology or not.The only apology being made here is the one for Roy. By all means, misrepresent claims, twist words, use stratgic omissions, but it doesn't change the facts. Roy was wrong to act as he did.


His personal distaste for Miko is entirely irrelevant in this matter because it was not the reason for their battle.Sure it was. Hinjo's death was merely the excuse to attack.


He took her down quickly and with minimal harm to her."Running her through," does not constitute "minimal harm" by any reasonable definition.


Even more importantly, I reiterate, if he had wanted to harm her--out of spite or otherwise--he would have. And he didn't.By that reasoning, Miko can't be held responsible for killing Shojo. I mean, if she'd wanted him dead, she'd have killed him much sooner.

It doesn't matter what he didn't do earlier, any more than we judge Miko's action by the complete lack of previous assassination attempts made by her against Shojo. It matters what we saw him do and why he actually did it, rather than the excuse he uses to cover it.


It wasn't "I hate you so I'm going to hurt you," it was "You committed murder, I'm taking you down."Roy wasn't interested in the takedown. He was interested in the beating.


Huge difference.Not in terms of good and evil.


Miko give in to majority opinion?Maybe you've forgotten the time the Order stayed at that inn and it was decided that Miko would pay for them.


When has Miko ever changed her opinion because of any outside influcence.Durkon, in strip #201. For that matter, Roy managed to convince her that he might actually be worth courting -- and look what he did with that opportunity.

I'm not saying it was wrong for him to reject her, but he was an idiot for the way in which he did it.


Hinjo is giving her every opportunity and she still attacks him.Bad move on her part, good move on his, but Roy did make the task more difficult for Hinjo.


That, incidentally is an additional problem: reasoning with Miko carries a considerable health hazard. If you don't convince her, you die.Gross overstatement. Roy apparently spent a lot of time failing to convince her on the road to Azure City.


Soon is talking to a dying person, who tried to do the right thing no matter how misguided it was. His words are generally kind, but even he points out that she seems incapable of even considering the possibility that she might have been wrong.You're stretching the point. He only observes that she had not yet done so, while also made it clear that there was no guarantee that she ever would have done so. He never gave any indication that it was unlikely, however.


She tried to used lethal force on Roy when he was down on the ground and helpless...While surrounded by enemies, one of whom was actively attempting to disintegrate her.


...she tried to use lethal frce on Belkar when he was down on the ground and helpless...We call that an execution. It was certainly unnecessary within the confines of the throne room, but out in the field, she'd have been in the clear to finish him off.


...she used lethal force on Shojo who was old, unarmed and sitting in a chair...None of which is relevant to an execution. All that matters is that it was a wrongful execution.


Then why didn't he finish her of when she fell down he first time?Because it would have been over too quickly for Roy's tastes. He had a lot of monologuing to get in there first, after all.


He is hurting a murderer and when Miko does that to Belkar you consider his crimes to be a justification. Double standard?Nope. Miko was acting as a representative of the state, tracking an arrested murderer, who had already attacked her several times in the course of her pursuit. None of those factors apply to Roy.

Having said that, if Miko had killed Belkar in the throne room, I suspect she would have lost her paladin status for overstepping her authority and the needs of the situation. (Sure, he'd deceived her more than a few times, so faking his own injuries wasn't beyond him. Still no excuse, however.) Anywhere else during the course of the pursuit, though, especially outside city bounds, and it would have been a different matter.


I don't remember Belkar killing unarmed old men either.So killing a guard whose weapon is sheathed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html) is clearly okay if he's no more than half Shojo's age? See why "old" and "unarmed" have nothing to do with the point?


Yes, I'm talking about her absurdly unrealistic viewpoints as expressed in the intro to the Start of Darkness.Also somewhat out of character -- much like the comments V expressed at the start of No Cure for the Paladin Blues. A decent caricature in both cases, but not entirely consistent with everything else we've seen.

I mean, come on...

Miko is supposed to have actually written, "SLASH! SLASH! SLASH!" at the end of her introduction? That's not leaping to conclusions -- that's being so out of touch with reality that you're hallucinating. We're talking levels that would have Don Quixote telling her she was seeing things.

[Rangerdude]

I have this funny feeling they're going to persuade him to help Miko regain her paladin status.
Well we find her irritating so who's to say where's she'e been sent will have the same reaction and decide to get her out of their hair and to facilitate Roy being raised "early" say so he finds he's been shot somewhere private...
I can just see that interviewer noting he's been in contact with Miko and using it to persuade him to help without revealing he's being played of course how are they going to react when both Miko and Roy are sent back... I can just imagine Belkar's reaction to this!


I think it would be cool if Miko came back as a Blackguard and joined Linear Guild. After all, OotS needs more recurring villains.

[Deathwisher]

Even if she hit that state while executing Shojo, Roy wasn't attacking someone who was either crazed or murderous.


No, he was attacking someone who had just killed her own liegelord and Roys only ally in the entire city.



No one claimed he did. He still have the obligation to behave responsibly, however. Attacking someone in a state of shock on your own initiative without any regard for the opinions of the city official standing nearby doesn't cut it.

Using a weapon was excessive, but taking down a murderer who has just commited regicide seems to be the sensible thing to do.




Yeah, let's leave out what he said after that, which is more relevant to the situation. You know, the stuff that earned him Belkar's seal of approval?


Relevant how? Hinjo condemns Roy for enjoying the fight. Not for fighting



The only apology being made here is the one for Roy. By all means, misrepresent claims, twist words, use stratgic omissions, but it doesn't change the facts. Roy was wrong to act as he did.


Right. Somebody kills the ruler of the town and it is wrong to attack that person and stop them from doing further harm. Instead we should all just talk it over calmly and pray that she'll see reason, because she has been so very reasonable ever since we met her.



Sure it was. Hinjo's death was merely the excuse to attack.


Hinjo's death? Or do you mean Shojo's? Either way, are you saying that Roy would have attacked her anyway if she had not attacked Shojo. I'd love to see the evidence for that.
In http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html Roy does not reach for his weapon until Miko is about to kill Shojo. He does in fact stay passive during the entire argument between Miko, Hinjo and Shojo.



By that reasoning, Miko can't be held responsible for killing Shojo. I mean, if she'd wanted him dead, she'd have killed him much sooner.


She killed him the moment she wanted too.



It doesn't matter what he didn't do earlier, any more than we judge Miko's action by the complete lack of previous assassination attempts made by her against Shojo. It matters what we saw him do and why he actually did it, rather than the excuse he uses to cover it.


Again, Shojo's death was merely an excuse? Where does that idea come from. Does Roy make a habit of attacking people he doesn't like? Has he made a habit of attacking Miko?




Bad move on her part, good move on his, but Roy did make the task more difficult for Hinjo.


But Hinjo was in no way involved in any of it. Why would Miko refuse to listen to Hnjo, because of what Roy has done. It is not as though there is anything linking Hinjo to Roy.




While surrounded by enemies, one of whom was actively attempting to disintegrate her.


Because she attacked them without any provocation. Starting a fight to the death, while Roy was still asking what was going on.



We call that an execution. It was certainly unnecessary within the confines of the throne room, but out in the field, she'd have been in the clear to finish him off.


No we don't. It would be an execution if there'd been a trial.



None of which is relevant to an execution. All that matters is that it was a wrongful execution.


A wrongful execution is a death sentence carried out on someone who is innocent. Cutting a defenseless man down without any form of trial is not an execution, wrongful or otherwise. It is murder



Because it would have been over too quickly for Roy's tastes. He had a lot of monologuing to get in there first, after all.


So Roy stopped fighting on numerous occasions just to have an opportunity to talk? Now who is stretching things?



Nope. Miko was acting as a representative of the state, tracking an arrested murderer, who had already attacked her several times in the course of her pursuit. None of those factors apply to Roy.


These fights were started by Miko, not Belkar. Of course we can trot out the whole resisting arrest vs. illegal arrest argument again, but we already have other threads for those. Belkar didn't even kill her when she was unconscious.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html.
I wouldn't call his motives noble, but at that point he actually shows more restraint than Miko.



So killing a guard whose weapon is sheathed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html) is clearly okay if he's no more than half Shojo's age? See why "old" and "unarmed" have nothing to do with the point?


The guard IS armed. Moreover, he is keeping Belkar prisoner under false pretenses. The guard's tragedy is that he doesn't know that.



Also somewhat out of character -- much like the comments V expressed at the start of No Cure for the Paladin Blues. A decent caricature in both cases, but not entirely consistent with everything else we've seen.

I mean, come on...

Miko is supposed to have actually written, "SLASH! SLASH! SLASH!" at the end of her introduction? That's not leaping to conclusions -- that's being so out of touch with reality that you're hallucinating. We're talking levels that would have Don Quixote telling her she was seeing things.

Yes she did. The reader was reading a book about evil people, which was of course clear proof that the reader himself is evil. And yes, that definitely qualifies as 'jumping to conclusions'. I agree that Miko is crazy. probably she should have been confined for her own safety, not to mention the safety of otehrs.

[Lord]

Umm If you will direct your eyes to the comic after the one where Roy attacks Miko you will clearly see that Miko attacked Hinjo without playing Phychiatrist. Clearly Miko is evil by your own standards. Because apparently what you are saying is Miko should have done this...


:miko: Hinjo clearly I am the chosen one because I am high level and shojo was clearly trying to give Azure city to Xykon.

...Forgive me if I disagree.

[Randalor]

There is one piece of evidence that Roy was justified that David and Shattered seemed to have overlooked *Other than David's constant misquoting of Roy's statement*.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html

Fourth panel, read what Hinjo says very carefully. Noticed it yet? Good. Even HINJO is calling her a murderer, and you're wanting her to escape? Also, read the rest of the comic again. Just before she strikes Hinjo, she isn't saying "It's all Roy's fault," she's saying "The gods have a plan for me, I know it! I am special... wouldn't do this to me without a reason. I just need to figure out what it is." She's STILL thinking that she's just in everything she does, including killing the ruler of her city, as well as the heir and fellow paladin. Can you HONESTLY say that she is not criminally insane at this point? Honestly?