Dwarven Rogue

[tstewt1921]

We have a new game coming up and myself and another player will be playing tandem Dwarves with myself as a rogue and him as a fighter, I had the idea of using teamwork feats however we found just a few, so I turn to you, and see if there is anything out there we aren't looking at. Doesn't have to necessarily be optimized just useful and fun. If there aren't any out there, then I will probably just play a crit fisher flanking rogue.

[Florian]

Speaking teamwork feats, you mean Pathfinder?

[Thurbane]

Here's an excellent list from Troacctid:


Player's Handbook II, Dungeonscape, and Forge of War all contain teamwork benefits. I believe this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VSz3GaCBQeXsTWTSBppmd7J0qUBg19d1KaBGGwMeyZg/edit#gid=1180456961) is a full list.

[tstewt1921]

Speaking teamwork feats, you mean Pathfinder?

Sorry should of specified this is 3.5, however some pathfinder feats may be allowed if we run them by the DM.

[ericgrau]

Dwarves may tumble in full plate. Read tumble rules and dwarf description for the details of the obscure combo. It's hard to get a good modifier with the penalties and dumped dex, but I'm sure there are plenty of ways in 3.5. There's a psionic psychoactive skin for it for example. Stonecunning also helps with trapfinding IIRC. I'd take at least 1 level of fighter or other heavy armor granting class and make it a str based combat rogue. Instead of bothering with sneaking around, focus on flanking, trapfinding, and other non-dex skills (except tumble). Let the fighter go in first and join him with a flank. Speed boosting magic items and/or anklets of translocation will be helpful with this.

I didn't notice any great teamwork feats on the linked list, but maybe you'll see something.

[tstewt1921]

Dwarves may tumble in full plate. Read tumble rules and dwarf description for the details of the obscure combo. It's hard to get a good modifier with the penalties and dumped dex, but I'm sure there are plenty of ways in 3.5. There's a psionic psychoactive skin for it for example. Stonecunning also helps with trapfinding IIRC. I'd take at least 1 level of fighter or other heavy armor granting class and make it a str based combat rogue. Instead of bothering with sneaking around, focus on flanking, trapfinding, and other non-dex skills (except tumble). Let the fighter go in first and join him with a flank. Speed boosting magic items and/or anklets of translocation will be helpful with this.

I didn't notice any great teamwork feats on the linked list, but maybe you'll see something.

I've read through the PHB portion on dwarves and tumble description and I see nothing of the sort? Do you possibly remember where you read it?

[Eladrinblade]

I've read through the PHB portion on dwarves and tumble description and I see nothing of the sort? Do you possibly remember where you read it?

You're not paying attention then. Dwarves are not slowed by armor, and you can't tumble if your speed is slowed by armor.

[tstewt1921]

You're not paying attention then. Dwarves are not slowed by armor, and you can't tumble if your speed is slowed by armor.

I saw that, I didn't realized that was part of tumble, my fault.

[tstewt1921]

You're not paying attention then. Dwarves are not slowed by armor, and you can't tumble if your speed is slowed by armor.

I would however still be subject to the -6 Armor Check Penalty wearing heavy armor.

[ericgrau]

I would however still be subject to the -6 Armor Check Penalty wearing heavy armor.
Correct, and it goes better with a str rogue so your modifier is even lower. Pumping tumble is a big concern if you try the combo. It's something I've been wanting to pull for a while. And I only thought of this and stone-cunning because they are two things that dwarf rogues do better than other rogues. Plus I like the dwarfy concept of a heavily armored and armed dwarf doing sneak attacks and clanking about. Found this for optimizing tumble: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362780-Optimizing-tumble-checks . It's not all great, but you can pick and choose what bonuses work easiest for you. Try to get at least a +10 from the tips. If that's too hard, then yeah maybe that's why this combo mostly stays obscure and unused.

EDIT for more tips: Basic way without getting too cheesy would be to either get the psionic item or a +7 customer item for 7x7x100 = 4,900 gp. Plus skill focus feat = +10.

Here's something for reducing ACP: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?155455-Armor-Ability-that-Reduces-Armor-Check-Penalty/page2 . There are magic item abilities too and mithril, but they're expensive. Dread commando doesn't help with flanking sneak attack but it makes up for it with full BAB and it gives an initiative boost as a teamwork benefit. Plus good skills.

[Temotei]

Amulet of Teamwork in the Magic Item Compendium is a fun and pretty decently strong item.

[tstewt1921]

Correct, and it goes better with a str rogue so your modifier is even lower. Pumping tumble is a big concern if you try the combo. It's something I've been wanting to pull for a while. And I only thought of this and stone-cunning because they are two things that dwarf rogues do better than other rogues. Plus I like the dwarfy concept of a heavily armored and armed dwarf doing sneak attacks and clanking about. Found this for optimizing tumble: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362780-Optimizing-tumble-checks . It's not all great, but you can pick and choose what bonuses work easiest for you. Try to get at least a +10 from the tips. If that's too hard, then yeah maybe that's why this combo mostly stays obscure and unused.

Eventually I should be able to get my hands on the widget of +10 to tumble, we are running a very low magic game so it may be a bit, but until then I can pump ranks and hope my dice like me enough to let me do it. I'm on board with this and love it. Once I get it hammered out I will share it here and let you know what I have come up with.

Also, I'm probably tanking adaptable flanker to make it easier for me to get into position for it.

[Falontani]

If a tower shield is used for cover (a move action) then a character may attempt to hide behind the cover (part of a move action, can be done at the same time as turning a tower shield into cover). So a dwarf fighter rogue uses standard action to move twenty feet, move action to plant shield as cover, and part of move action to hide behind it. When you are hidden all of your possessions are also considered hidden, including your shield...

[Thurbane]

Amulet of Teamwork in the Magic Item Compendium is a fun and pretty decently strong item.

Wow, never noticed this item before. Nice. Good value for 2,000gp!

[ericgrau]

I thought of one thing that will help with the painful low levels of failed tumble checks: your wonderful low level AC. A great AC is also nice for otherwise fragile melee rogues in general. You might also get a +5 tumble item or +X item and ask if you can pay the difference to upgrade it later. It's perfectly rules legal, the only iffy part is getting a custom item and an NPC to make/upgrade it.