So... just looked at the War Wizard.

[SunderedWorldDM]

And it looks like it would be a really good dip, particularly for a melee character. Being able to get a free bonus to armor and saves, the only penalty being to your spellcasting (which, if you're a melee dip, isn't a problem anyways)? Sign me up! And an extra boost to initiative is always appreciated.

The only real problems I see are the INT requirement (but that's not too difficult to overcome) and that you'd need to take a useless level of vanilla Wizard beforehand. But it could definitely work within a gish build, I can definitely see this synergizing with something like Hexblade, or even just Fighter.

Thoughts?

[SociopathFriend]

Toss that bad boy on a Paladin (who have next to nothing for reactions anyways) and you're easily looking at +10 or higher to most saves.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Toss that bad boy on a Paladin (who have next to nothing for reactions anyways) and you're easily looking at +10 or higher to most saves.

Right, in fact, I was looking at it for my Redemption Paladin anyways, and while I'm normally a staunch crusader against optimization, it might work within the story, and then I would be unstoppable (AC 23, anyone?).

[Drakkoniss]

Seems like it could synergize rather well with an Arcane Trickster. Not only will it help with spell slot progression, but the extra access to cantrips and low level spells learned will generally be of great help. You'll already be going into a class that needs Intelligence, so that won't be an issue, either (and this is all before considering the benefits you alluded to in your opening post).

[SociopathFriend]

Right, in fact, I was looking at it for my Redemption Paladin anyways, and while I'm normally a staunch crusader against optimization, it might work within the story, and then I would be unstoppable (AC 23, anyone?).

You don't even need the spells as a Paladin- just the slots for smiting. Though I suppose the idea is that really anyone could use such a good feature- any class without reactions in great supply would love it for that ability alone.

[lunaticfringe]

Right, in fact, I was looking at it for my Redemption Paladin anyways, and while I'm normally a staunch crusader against optimization, it might work within the story, and then I would be unstoppable (AC 23, anyone?).

For 1 Attack. You can still get smooshed by multiattack or a mob of mooks.

[Arkhios]

What's funny about War Wizard is that it works surprisingly well with Barbarian as well. Arcane Deflection is not a spell, so you can use it even while raging. Also, who wouldn't like an excuse to play a relatively smart barbarian once in a while! :smallbiggrin:

With point buy, you could easily be something like this:
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8; incl. Variant Human: +1 Str, +1 Con, Tavern Brawler +1 Str (as a bonus, you can literally cast FIST at-will, and while raging! :smallbiggrin:)

[McSkrag]

Don't forget as a War Wizard you also add your INT to your initiative.

It's a really solid dip for Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights who won't care much about the cantrip limitation from Arcane Deflection.

[Blood of Gaea]

Ah, if you can afford a couple lost levels of progression, (or a 17/18 level PC with a meh capstone) it's a great dip.

Also gets you some other good utility like detect magic, find familiar, even mage armor for a +1 dex on your dex PC.

So even a Barbarian who can't concentrate or cast spells would see some nice use from this.

That said, Intelligence is usually one of the least important stats, so needing 13 isn't a negligible cost.

[Vogie]

you'd need to take a useless level of vanilla Wizard beforehand.

It's not useless. You get 2 first level spell slots (plus one with Arcane Recovery), 6 spells known, 3 cantrips, and ritual casting. That includes things like Find Familiar, Mage Armor, and Expeditious Retreat that anyone can use.

Paladins can use those slots for smiting
Sorcerers use them for Sorc Points
Warlocks just use low level slots for things that won't scale, or low-level Hex castings
Fighters & Barbarians get ranged damage cantrips without carrying javelins or a bow & arrows
Rogues get the melee cantrips (BB and/or GFB)

[SunderedWorldDM]

It's not useless. You get 2 first level spell slots (plus one with Arcane Recovery), 6 spells known, 3 cantrips, and ritual casting. That includes things like Find Familiar, Mage Armor, and Expeditious Retreat that anyone can use.

Paladins can use those slots for smiting
Sorcerers use them for Sorc Points
Warlocks just use low level slots for things that won't scale, or low-level Hex castings
Fighters & Barbarians get ranged damage cantrips without carrying javelins or a bow & arrows
Rogues get the melee cantrips (BB and/or GFB)


Right, but in terms of usefulness, these spells and slots are small potatoes compared to the pretty good stuff you get at 2nd. But I can see how this could be an extra advantage to a gish character.

[TheMoxiousOne]

Really feeling this on any gish now...

[MaxWilson]

Right, but in terms of usefulness, these spells and slots are small potatoes compared to the pretty good stuff you get at 2nd. But I can see how this could be an extra advantage to a gish character.

The spells Vogie mentioned aren't small potatoes. Find Familiar is somewhat like advantage on one attack per round; Expeditious Retreat lets you trivialize certain classes of enemies all by yourself (even if other PCs aren't around); Shield and Absorb Elements can save your life.

[jaappleton]

My only issue with War Wizard is that IMO, the Bladesinger is superior. Bladesong is just so damn good, defensively.

[RSP]

For 1 Attack. You can still get smooshed by multiattack or a mob of mooks.

Isn’t it still better to make one out of X attacks miss rather than hitting? Doesn’t the ability still help prevent getting “smooshed” by a mob of it turns a hit into a miss?

Staying as a martial class would give 4 HPs over taking this dip, but otherwise, what class is going to use those two levels to up AC? I think it’s safe to say an at will Ability to up AC or Saves will save at least 4 HPs over the course of an adventuring day.

What defensive ability helps out more than this? Defensive Duelist maybe, if willing to sacrifice the feat, but that doesn’t cover the additional benefits gained by 2 levels of Wizard and the added +Int to Initiative.

Just because the ability doesn’t have as good of a duration as Shield, doesn’t mean it isn’t a good ability.

[TheMoxiousOne]

My only issue with War Wizard is that IMO, the Bladesinger is superior. Bladesong is just so damn good, defensively.

I agree. However, my local scene only allows officially printed materials, and as such, no UA for me. :smallfrown: Really solid in it's own right, though, and amazing for any solo wizard; if you're not into that whole MC life.

[MaxWilson]

My only issue with War Wizard is that IMO, the Bladesinger is superior. Bladesong is just so ---- good, defensively.

Meh. It's easily replaced by heavy armor proficiency + defense style.

At level 3, you could be a Paladin 1/War Wizard 2 with AC 19 in chain mail + shield (21 on reaction, or 24 if you want to Shield), or a Paladin 1/Bladesinger 2 with AC 16ish in Mage Armor + Dex 16ish, AC 19 after you activate Bladesong, AC 24 when you Shield. When you upgrade to plate armor the Paladin will get AC 21 (23/26) with no extra expenditures, and the Bladesinger will still be AC 16 (19).

Bladesingers aren't so much tough as they are mobile, compared to the heavily-armored equivalents (like Forge 1/Wizard X). Rogue 2/Bladesinger X is loads of fun--a stealthy gish who is nearly as tough as a fighter.


Isn’t it still better to make one out of X attacks miss rather than hitting? Doesn’t the ability still help prevent getting “smooshed” by a mob of it turns a hit into a miss?

In practice, if you know monster to-hit bonuses, +2 to AC on one attack per round is nearly the same thing as a flat +2 to AC, since it's fairly unlikely there will be multiple attacks per round where that +2 makes the difference between hitting and missing. Defensive Duelist is often better than it looks for that reason. As the AC bonus grows and the number of attacks potentially blocked grows, the scaling gets worse, so against large mobs or monsters with tons of attacks (like Hydras and Mariliths and Star Spawn Manglers) you will usually want to Shield instead of using Arcane Deflection--but Arcane Deflection is still a good ability because it's cheap and it can boost saves and it doesn't interfere with concentration--once you're already concentrating on Wall of Force you probably don't care that much if you can "only" cast Booming Blade next turn, anyway.

[Willie the Duck]

It's not useless. You get 2 first level spell slots (plus one with Arcane Recovery), 6 spells known, 3 cantrips, and ritual casting. That includes things like Find Familiar, Mage Armor, and Expeditious Retreat that anyone can use.

Paladins can use those slots for smiting
Sorcerers use them for Sorc Points
Warlocks just use low level slots for things that won't scale, or low-level Hex castings
Fighters & Barbarians get ranged damage cantrips without carrying javelins or a bow & arrows
Rogues get the melee cantrips (BB and/or GFB)


These are all true. The ranged cantrips in particular (depending on whether you are going minimal 13 Int to MC or more) makes Str-based, Dex-dumping builds a lot easier to manage.

The only thing I'd caution is that I don't know of many games where being 2 levels behind in your main schtick isn't a big deal (in other words, I would hope you get something serious out of the dip), and if you consistently find yourself able to give up your reaction, is this the best thing to fill it with (for the paladin example, are we sure that this 2-level dip is better than picking up Sentinel?).

[noob]

And it looks like it would be a really good dip, particularly for a melee character. Being able to get a free bonus to armor and saves, the only penalty being to your spellcasting (which, if you're a melee dip, isn't a problem anyways)? Sign me up! And an extra boost to initiative is always appreciated.

The only real problems I see are the INT requirement (but that's not too difficult to overcome) and that you'd need to take a useless level of vanilla Wizard beforehand. But it could definitely work within a gish build, I can definitely see this synergizing with something like Hexblade, or even just Fighter.

Thoughts?
In addition due to int being very frequently a dump start it means that you will be smarter than most of your team mates and you will be able to use int based skills.

[MaxWilson]

I agree. However, my local scene only allows officially printed materials, and as such, no UA for me. :smallfrown: Really solid in it's own right, though, and amazing for any solo wizard; if you're not into that whole MC life.

Bladesinger is printed in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. It's not UA.

[Pex]

I'd still rather cast Shield though the +4 to saving throws is nice. Personally if I multiclass I do it for at least 4 level. I'll be wanting the 3rd level subclass ability and 4th level ASI to be worth delaying my main class. Only doing it for 2 levels is not worth the trouble, for me. I can see the value of War Wizard for those who are willing only to go in for 2 levels, but it's not for me. Wizard in general is not to my taste to multiclass into.

[MaxWilson]

I'd still rather cast Shield though the +4 to saving throws is nice. Personally if I multiclass I do it for at least 4 level. I'll be wanting the 3rd level subclass ability and 4th level ASI to be worth delaying my main class. Only doing it for 2 levels is not worth the trouble, for me. I can see the value of War Wizard for those who are willing only to go in for 2 levels, but it's not for me. Wizard in general is not to my taste to multiclass into.

Having the option to Shield is nice, but if the T-Rex rolls a 17 and then a 10 against your AC 20, you'd want to do nothing on the 17 and then Arcane Deflection on the 10, instead of Shielding. Shielding would just be a waste of spell points in that case. Edit: I know, bad example, T-Rexes can't multiattack the same target twice. Pretend it's two different T-Rexes hitting you with their tails.

But yeah, the bonus to saves (including concentration saves) is the real benefit of Arcane Deflection, even though as a wizard you have a lot of competition for your reaction.

Low-level wizard spells are in general great defensively. Blur, Expeditious Retreat, Absorb Elements, Shield, Misty Step, Mirror Image, sometimes Levitate... there are more good options than you can actually afford to pick.

[RSP]

In practice, if you know monster to-hit bonuses, +2 to AC on one attack per round is nearly the same thing as a flat +2 to AC, since it's fairly unlikely there will be multiple attacks per round where that +2 makes the difference between hitting and missing. Defensive Duelist is often better than it looks for that reason...

Wasn’t meant as a knock on DD, was just referencing the only other defensive ability I could think of that would be equivalent to AD on a Martial.

Having the choice to Shield an attack is an additional plus in favor of the dip as a martial dipping WW would be quite wise to select Shield as one of their 6 level1 spells.

[Vogie]

My only issue with War Wizard is that IMO, the Bladesinger is superior. Bladesong is just so damn good, defensively.

Not so much superior, just really different. Bladesinger gives potentially more AC, but nothing on saving throws, and requires at least an 16 Int investment to get more than +2 AC, which can be hard depending on your stat rolls. The movement and pseudo-warcaster is wonderful, but you can only use it twice a rest.

There are also racial (although that is frequently waived) and weapon size requirements. Regardless how brilliant your barbarian is, you can't bladesong with a Halberd or greatsword.


Bladesinger is printed in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. It's not UA.

If they're playing in AL, which only allows PHB +1, it might as well be. War Wizard is in XGtE, so it's an Either/Or choice, not a both/and.

[MaxWilson]

Wasn’t meant as a knock on DD, was just referencing the only other defensive ability I could think of that would be equivalent to AD on a Martial.

Having the choice to Shield an attack is an additional plus in favor of the dip as a martial dipping WW would be quite wise to select Shield as one of their 6 level1 spells.

Sorry, I was unclear. I didn't mean that you were knocking on DD. I was bloviating. I think we agree on the substance here: Arcane Deflection is a good ability despite the existence of Shield.


If they're playing in AL, which only allows PHB +1, it might as well be. War Wizard is in XGtE, so it's an Either/Or choice, not a both/and.

Bladesinger and War Wizard are always an either/or choice, since they're both wizard subclasses. I thought the OP was planning on going Paladin of Vengeance for their other class though, which is fully compatible with either Bladesinger or War Wizard, although in AL only Bladesinger would get the Booming Blade cantrip option (while War Wizard would get a bunch of awesome spells including Absorb Elements and Synaptic Static).

[lunaticfringe]

Isn’t it still better to make one out of X attacks miss rather than hitting? Doesn’t the ability still help prevent getting “smooshed” by a mob of it turns a hit into a miss?

Staying as a martial class would give 4 HPs over taking this dip, but otherwise, what class is going to use those two levels to up AC? I think it’s safe to say an at will Ability to up AC or Saves will save at least 4 HPs over the course of an adventuring day.

What defensive ability helps out more than this? Defensive Duelist maybe, if willing to sacrifice the feat, but that doesn’t cover the additional benefits gained by 2 levels of Wizard and the added +Int to Initiative.

Just because the ability doesn’t have as good of a duration as Shield, doesn’t mean it isn’t a good ability.

I didn't say it was bad. The context of my post is that I was responding to the OP's claim that 23 AC (for 1 Attack a Round) made them unstoppable. Overconfidence in AC over 20 makes PC Paste imx.

[MaxWilson]

I didn't say it was bad. The context of my post is that I was responding to the OP's claim that 23 AC (for 1 Attack a Round) made them unstoppable. Overconfidence in AC over 20 makes PC Paste imx.

100% true. AC 21 (23 once per round) is not that high. 30 kobolds will still liquify you.

[Vogie]

Bladesinger and War Wizard are always an either/or choice, since they're both wizard subclasses.

I meant in the sense of books. You can't be a Cavalier/Bladesinger or Hexblade/Bladesinger in AL, as both SCAG & XGTE fall under the "+1".

[Maxilian]

War wizard also makes a funny combo with Moon Druid, Transform into a Crag Cat everytime you get into a fight with a caster, the Extra against saves will make it quite easy for you to reflect spell back to your enemies (Now get 7 lvl in Paladin Ancestor and you're set!)

[MaxWilson]

I meant in the sense of books. You can't be a Cavalier/Bladesinger or Hexblade/Bladesinger in AL, as both SCAG & XGTE fall under the "+1".

I understand that. I just didn't get the impression the OP was committed to any particular other class that would exclude Bladesinger, though he did mention Fighters, Hexblades, and Redemption paladins in various posts.

In short, Bladesinger could be an option, but I think we'd both agree that it's not the right option for someone who's looking for a defense boost with a two-level dip.

[Helldin87]

I built out a lvl 5 EK/War Wizard just to see:

Eladrin (for sweet free teleports)

10/16/14/16/10/8

Fighter 3 EK/Wizard 2 War

Took the defensive fighting style

Leather armor, rapier, shield

Cantrips:

EK GFB/BB
Wizard Bonfire, Prest., Firebolt

The wizard allows 8 total with 4 prepared spells. EK gives you 3. That's a huge chunk of the total available level 1 spells which are all actually really good imo. Also your combined caster level gives you access to level 2 slots if you need them for upcasts.

Basic idea is that you are super tanky like all EK's +6 to initiative....yeah you go first. Run in with mage armor on but wearing your leather for a base AC of of 19. Start combat by casting bonfire on your target. If they move: Awesome. You get a reaction or they used disengage and did nothing productive. If they don't: Awesome. Eat 2d8 for the pleasure of trying to hit me. use reaction to buff AC further to 21 or blow a slot on shield to get you to 24. On your next turn punish them further by casting BB until they die. Now if they move they eat BB extra damage and if they don't they get burned again. Other options include using absorb elements against incoming magical damage. Firebolt for ranged damage with a backup Longbow for s/g's. If you need it feel free to hit that burning hands button too. Maybe even upcast to level 2. You certainly have the spell DC for it.

Out of combat you are a workhorse with rituals up the whazoo. Find that familiar. Detect ALL THE MAGIC. Prepare things like featherfall for that one time your party falls down a trapdoor. You're a jack of all rituals. I have noticed that a lot of my groups love non-wizard casters. Lots of sorcs and such. Well guess who just laid claim to all the spellbooks that you find? That's gonna be YOU sir. Slurp up all the extra spells you can cast for added fun times.

I would play this. It's a fun gish imo with a solid role of "tanky spell caster" made just a bit more specialized than a standard EK by the addition of the extra spells and the free reaction.

What it lacks: Level 5 pure casters have 3rd level spells. They are throwing fireballs and counterspells. You don't have that luxury. Also you lack extra attack from fighter 5 and of course the ASI or feat at 4.

Further progression: You could argue for either more levels in fighter or wizard. Personally I am tempted to go to wizard 4 for the ASI and the math is more friendly for getting spell slots. At player level 6 you would actually have second level spells. These offer a huge defensive boost from things like blur and mirror image that would make up for your lack of HP.

Hope y'all like it!

[TheMoxiousOne]

Bladesinger is printed in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. It's not UA.

I was unaware; I will go out and get a thing, now! :smallbiggrin:

[RSP]

I built out a lvl 5 EK/War Wizard just to see:

...Start combat by casting bonfire on your target. If they move: Awesome. You get a reaction or they used disengage and did nothing productive...

FYI a character only gets an AoO if a creature tries to move from within their melee reach to without; a creature in a bonfire could leave the bonfire without leaving the character’s reach.

[SpamCreateWater]

I'm very confused by the claim that you get +4 to any saving throw.

Arcane Deflection says that when you fail a Constitution saving throw you can use your reaction to get a +4 to that saving throw.

I could be misreading the intent of what people are saying, of course.

[lunaticfringe]

I'm very confused by the claim that you get +4 to any saving throw.

Arcane Deflection says that when you fail a Constitution saving throw you can use your reaction to get a +4 to that saving throw.

I could be misreading the intent of what people are saying, of course.

Is that the UA version? My XGtE says:

At 2nd level, you have learned to weave your magic to fortify yourself against harm. When you are hit by an attack or you fail a saving throw, you can use your reaction to gain a +2 bonus to your AC against that attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw. When you use this feature, you can't cast spells other than cantrips until the end of your next turn.

[Vogie]

Is that the UA version? My XGtE says:

At 2nd level, you have learned to weave your magic to fortify yourself against harm. When you are hit by an attack or you fail a saving throw, you can use your reaction to gain a +2 bonus to your AC against that attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw. When you use this feature, you can't cast spells other than cantrips until the end of your next turn.

They may be remembering the bladesong function


You gain a bonus to any Constitution saving throw you make to maintain your concentration on a spell. The bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).

[SpamCreateWater]

Is that the UA version? My XGtE says:

At 2nd level, you have learned to weave your magic to fortify yourself against harm. When you are hit by an attack or you fail a saving throw, you can use your reaction to gain a +2 bonus to your AC against that attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw. When you use this feature, you can't cast spells other than cantrips until the end of your next turn.

Son of a gun. I wonder how I never picked up on that? :smalleek:

[Max_Killjoy]

Almost makes me wish subclasses could be crossed-over... might be interesting to see how a war-sorcerer would work out.

[DarkKnightJin]

Almost makes me wish subclasses could be crossed-over... might be interesting to see how a war-sorcerer would work out.

Same. I've been thinking about making a Fighter1-2/Sorc X for a 'ghetto Paladin' of sorts.

[noob]

Same. I've been thinking about making a Fighter1-2/Sorc X for a 'ghetto Paladin' of sorts.

Did you consider that war wizard was utterly awesome to compensate how int is used for absolutely nothing other than the wizard class thus making it have synergy with nearly no other casting classes?

[MrStabby]

I really like it with hexblade bladelocks.

Hexblade let's you free up some stat points for int on a melee character.

Hexblade also gives you access to awesome low level spells like wrathful smite that are great but a waste from a high level spell slot. War wizard for the two levels gives you a lot more uses (with arcane recovery).

This also makes for a great all-round character. Melee offence, good tanking skills, wizards ritual casting (still a lot of value at low levels). Even nova is covered a bit through magic missile and hexblade curse (with high AC targets or otherwise attacking with disadvantage you can really shine).

[sambojin]

It's really not too bad as a Moon Druid as mentioned. But kinda later on, at lvl10+, although I guess you could take ot after Druid 6.

Mostly you'll want to be meatbagging, but also with a concentration spell up. That +4 to saves is glorious for that, even if it's only one Concentration save per turn.

Not being able to do anything but cantrip is irrelevant to you in wildshape, the occaisional +2AC can sometimes be handy, but +4 to a save per turn is great considering how often you want to be targeted. For Concentration, or just bouncing fireballs off your fur. The ritual casting and a tiny bit of spell regen is just gravy (you have *good* lvl1 spells).

Is it better than a 1lvl Monk dip for +1-3AC in wildshape all the time though? Or a 2lvl dip into Pally or Fighter for smites/AS? Or just continuing down the Druid progression to get bigger forms/more summons and more ASIs/feats?

Hard to say. But it *is* a good dip. It's just that staying mono-Druid or dipping Monk/Pally/Fighter is also a good thing to do. I'd rather dip 1lvl of Monk to scale my AC with Wis, or grab Alert/Sentinel/+2Wis a bi earlier, or up my damage output, but it's a personal preference thing. Making your casting more reliable to keep up on all those 10+ round spells is still a very powerful thing as a Druid.

[Ganymede]

I'm actually REALLY liking this for my 14 Int wizards' academy dropout Barbarian.

[BarneyBent]

I’m considering a dip on my melee Arcana Cleric after level 8. Maybe even earlier if I’m struggling to keep Spirit Guardians up and need the extra AC/Saving Throw help.