(3.P) Getting Those Extra 5' Steps

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How many ways are there to get extra 5' steps? Obviously, nabbing 10' steps is possible with the sparring dummy of the master, but only being able to perform one 5' step per round is a bummer.

There are a few ways I'm aware of:

--Boots of sidestepping (Magic Item) (MIC) - 3/day, spend an immediate action to gain an additional 5' step.
--Advancing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/advancing/) weapon enhancement (PF) - 1/round, use your swift action to make a 5' step in conjunction with an attack; does not count against your round's normal limit on 5' steps.
--Opportunistic Tactician (Feat) (Dragon #340) - Make a 5' step after an AoO; does not count against your round's normal limit on 5' steps.
--Sidestep (Feat) (Miniatures Handbook) - 1/round, make a 5' step after an AoO; does not count against your round's normal limit on 5' steps.
--Press the Advantage (Stance) (ToB) - Take a second 5' step immediately after the first while in the stance.
--Shifting Defense (Stance) (ToB) - Gain a 5' step each time an opponent attacks you. Badly written, in that nobody knows how it's supposed to work. It might only work when an attack fails, or it might work every time you are attacked. It might work like an immediate action even though it doesn't require one, which would allow you to use 5' steps to avoid attacks. Maybe.
--Elocater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm)'s Capricious Step (Class Ability) (XPH/SRD) - Grants an extra 5' step per round. It's even (Ex)! Too bad it requires 7 levels of a PrC that most people won't bother taking to get, though.
--Adjuring Step (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/adjuring-step/) (Spell) (PF) - Among other things, grants an extra 5' step per round.

Any others you can think of? Remember, it has to grant an additional 5' step, rather than allowing you to use your 5' steps in new ways, as there are plenty of those. Getting extras would make those other ways of using them so much better, since it loosens restrictions by a lot.

Being able to take 5' steps during a round you move would also be rather nice, too, now that I think about it.

[schreier]

What about Evasive Reflexes?

[noob]

This notion of 3.PF
Yes it is totally in the rules.
Just like playing a 3.5 wizard in 4e essentials is in the rules.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What about Evasive Reflexes?That, sadly, does not allow you to overcome the 1/round rule, nor does it allow you to take a 5' step if you moved on your turn.


This notion of 3.PF
Yes it is totally in the rules.
Just like playing a 3.5 wizard in 4e essentials is in the rules.Some games allow both 3.5 and PF items, so it's best to have answers for both when asking about these things. And if not, so long as they're marked as to which is which, it's all good.

But hey! Thanks for the useful comment. Really, I appreciate it. :smallwink:

[noob]

That, sadly, does not allow you to overcome the 1/round rule, nor does it allow you to take a 5' step if you moved on your turn.

Some games allow both 3.5 and PF items, so it's best to have answers for both when asking about these things. And if not, so long as they're marked as to which is which, it's all good.

But hey! Thanks for the useful comment. Really, I appreciate it. :smallwink:

As i said it is rule legal.
I was more thinking about the 3.5 prc that did not get updated to pathfinder when making that comment.
It is rather rare to allow 3.5 classes in pathfinder.
since you mentioned an item that costs a swift then I guess you can add the anklet of transposition(swift action teleport at 10 feet three times per day) and I believe there is a training dummy that allows monks(or something like that)(was it sparring dummy of the master?) to do longer placement steps.
The shadow cloack while not exactly doing anything similar to those can still allow to teleport 10 feet when attacked which can help at closing the distance to an opponent(try to provoke an aoo there is ways to provoke with free actions).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As i said it is rule legal.
I was more thinking about the 3.5 prc that did not get updated to pathfinder when making that comment.
It is rather rare to allow 3.5 classes in pathfinder.
since you mentioned an item that costs a swift then I guess you can add the anklet of transposition(swift action teleport at 10 feet three times per day) and I believe there is a training dummy that allows monks(or something like that) to do longer placement steps.
The shadow cloack while not exactly doing anything similar to those can still allow to teleport 10 feet when attacked which can help at closing the distance to an opponent(try to provoke an aoo there is ways to provoke with free actions).The 'teleport 10 ft' items are great and useful, and they have their place, but they aren't 5' steps, which are their own action type, and they mix with other things in the game in very specific ways. Evasive Reflexes, for instance. If you get more than one 5' step, you could hop out of the way of melee attacks (such as with Karmic Strike or a reach weapon and Thicket of Blades). The 10' teleport wouldn't let you do that unless it was an immediate action or replaced an AoO.

Though I suppose in specific instances, they could sub for each other. Teleport 10' instead of taking a 5' step on your turn as a swift, for instance. Still, not exactly what I want for this, since such does not combo with other options that affect 5' steps. Note what happens if you used the sparring dummy of the master and use one of the stances above. Two 10' steps at a time, ahoy!

[noob]

The 'teleport 10 ft' items are great and useful, and they have their place, but they aren't 5' steps, which are their own action type, and they mix with other things in the game in very specific. Evasive Reflexes, for instance. If you get more than one 5' step, you could hop out of the way of melee attacks (such as with Karmic Strike or a reach weapon and Thicket of Blades). The 10' teleport wouldn't let you do that unless it was an immediate action or replaced an AoO.

Though I suppose in specific instances, they could sub for each other. Teleport 10' instead of taking a 5' step on your turn as a swift, for instance. Still, not exactly what I want for this, since such does not combo with other options that affect 5' steps. Note what happens if you used the sparring dummy of the master and use one of the stances above. Two 10' steps at a time, ahoy!

for the moving when attacked the shadow cloak works.
on the other hand it is true that 5 foot steps have a huge quality: teleportation prevention does not works on them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

for the moving when attacked the shadow cloak works.
on the other hand it is true that 5 foot steps have a huge quality: teleportation prevention does not works on them.Can you teleport twice up to 20' as an AoO using the teleport cloak? Because you can 5' step that, if you put in the effort.

[ManicOppressive]

That, sadly, does not allow you to overcome the 1/round rule, nor does it allow you to take a 5' step if you moved on your turn.


I don't agree with this at all. The entire feat line is

"When an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead immediately take a 5-foot step."

which doesn't exactly win the award for the most clearly written feat, but provides a pretty clear cause and effect in specific case over the general rule. It's not keyed off of your move action, it's keyed off of the provoking of the Attack of Opportunity. D&D doesn't have a system for remembering actions taken in a previous turn, which is why using an immediate borrows your swift from the next turn.

That it replaces Combat Reflexes is also pretty clear marker of intent that it's meant to let you do it more than once per round, in my opinion, but RAI is subjective.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't agree with this at all. The entire feat line is

"When an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead immediately take a 5-foot step."

which doesn't exactly win the award for the most clearly written feat, but provides a pretty clear cause and effect in specific case over the general rule. It's not keyed off of your move action, it's keyed off of the provoking of the Attack of Opportunity. D&D doesn't have a system for remembering actions taken in a previous turn, which is why using an immediate borrows your swift from the next turn.

That it replaces Combat Reflexes is also pretty clear marker of intent that it's meant to let you do it more than once per round, in my opinion, but RAI is subjective.What part of that quote allows you to do so more than once per round (or less, if you moved or used your 5' step for something else)?

[ManicOppressive]

What part of that quote allows you to do so more than once per round (or less, if you moved or used your 5' step for something else)?

The part where it says you can take a step, and doesn't specify a condition under which this is the case. Specific always trumps general. You normally only get one five foot step per round because it takes up your move action. Evasive Reflexes allows you to use opportunities for AoOs to make steps in addition.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The part where it says you can take a step, and doesn't specify a condition under which this is the case. Specific always trumps general. You normally only get one five foot step per round because it takes up your move action. Evasive Reflexes allows you to use opportunities for AoOs to make steps in addition.To quote Wikipedia: Citation needed.

[ManicOppressive]

To quote Wikipedia: Citation needed.


"When an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead immediately take a 5-foot step."

When <- A marker of time. A condition.

"When an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity" <- the full condition in question. Note the lack of further qualifications: Thus this feat's effect applies whenever this condition is met. You do not need to have not made a move action in the previous round for an opponent to give you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, so the condition is objectively capable of being met more than once in a round.

"you can instead immediately take a 5-foot step." <- The effect, dependent on the condition. Any time the condition is fulfilled, the effect takes place.

There is literally nothing ambiguous about the wording that would suggest it requires a move action from a previous turn to have remained undeclared (a mechanic that D&D does not use in the first place.). It doesn't say "once per round," it doesn't say "using your move action," it says "when an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead take a 5-foot step."

You are inventing a restriction that does not exist in any form in the feat's description and then asking me to provide a citation that it isn't there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And there is literally nothing about that statement that allows you to take more than one 5' step in a round, or take a 5' step in the same round that you moved. Remember, "You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep)" Note that this is per round, not "during your turn."

And the "when" could more easily be said that you can replace any given AoO with a 5' step, rather than every given AoO. I'd much prefer the ability to make multiple 5' steps under one of several conditions, but unless an ability explicitly says it breaks the 1/round rule, such as with the Sidestep feat, it does not. This is an exceptions-based ruleset. If an ability doesn't say (or at least require) that it makes an exception to a rule, it does not. Nothing about Evasive Reflexes requires more than one 5' step per round to function exactly as written, and it doesn't state that it does anything to break that rule, so it does not. I don't like it, but that's actually one of the main reasons why I posted this thread in the first place.

[ManicOppressive]

By that interpretation half of the feats in half of the books of 3.5 do basically nothing, but since this argument has been circular for at least two posts you can just enjoy your interpretation I guess.

[Sleven]

Manic is correct about Evasive Reflexes.

Furthermore, using Evasive Reflexes in the manner you described doesn’t work because Karmic Strike and Robilar’s only allow their attacks of opportunity after the attack. Which is why Shifting Defense is so good. As for Thicket of Blades, it doesn’t care if your movement was a 5ft step or not, all movement provokes.

And since I brought up Shifting Defense, I should also probably correct you there. You’re doing the same thing there you did with Evasive Reflexes: adding a bunch of extra stuff in an attempt to convolute it. You describe exactly what it does in your first sentence regarding the feat. If someone attacks you you can take a 5ft step. It uses the same function and resource as an attack of opportunity because it says so. So yes, you take it when you receive it, and no it is not an action. It’s one of the main reasons Setting Sun is undervalued as a discipline, because it does what you thought Evasive Reflexes + Karmic Strike could do.

Let’s see, what else...
I really don’t understand the point of the advancing weapon property. In 3.5 you can already take a 5ft step before or after an attack, including during a full attack.

[noob]

Manic is correct about Evasive Reflexes.

Furthermore, using Evasive Reflexes in the manner you described doesn’t work because Karmic Strike and Robilar’s only allow their attacks of opportunity after the attack. Which is why Shifting Defense is so good. As for Thicket of Blades, it doesn’t care if your movement was a 5ft step or not, all movement provokes.

And since I brought up Shifting Defense, I should also probably correct you there. You’re doing the same thing there you did with Evasive Reflexes: adding a bunch of extra stuff in an attempt to convolute it. You describe exactly what it does in your first sentence regarding the feat. If someone attacks you you can take a 5ft step. It uses the same function and resource as an attack of opportunity because it says so. So yes, you take it when you receive it, and no it is not an action. It’s one of the main reasons Setting Sun is undervalued as a discipline, because it does what you thought Evasive Reflexes + Karmic Strike could do.

Let’s see, what else...
I really don’t understand the point of the advancing weapon property. In 3.5 you can already take a 5ft step before or after an attack, including during a full attack.
With advancing you gain a bonus 5 foot step so if you had two 5 foot steps per turn and use a swift action for triggering advancing you can use three 5 foot steps this turn.