Evil, astonishingly under-CR-ed monster

[ShurikVch]

In the this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?574703-10-to-hit-on-CR-2), as a joke, I created an evil Juvenile Steel Dragon, who're, despite even being advanced to 15 HD, is still just CR 2

Nameless Scorned Proto-Creature Prodigy(Str) Juvenile Steel Dragon

Sure, You're may think: "Meh! A True Dragon without a spellcasting, or even a Breath Weapon! What a waste!"
For this, I will point: 15 HD Medium-sized Dragon with Str 26 (sans any possible equipment), 140 hp, and AC 27
At CR 2!

So, question: would you - as a DM - ever use something similar on your PCs?
If yes, than how:
as a random encounter
as a guardian monster
as an excuse to yell "Fly, you fools!"
as a BBEG in a low-level adventure
in a "Canned Evil (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan)"-type scenario

Also, 2nd-level party of 4 looks kinda under-leveled to take that monster (unless they're optimized though the roof)
So, will be a 2nd-level party of six enough? 4th-level party? 6th-level?

[heavyfuel]

I really wouldn't use this creature mostly because it's kind of a boring monster.

It's just a melee brute that should be around CR 6 but you found a RAW legal way to deprive your players of XP and Gold by making it CR 2, which is an uncool move if you ask me.

[noob]

If you want stronger monsters at cr 2 there is kobolds with two npc levels and 3 levels in sorcerer since:


Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.
Then use dragonwrought and loredrake and that ritual for one more equivalent level in sorcerer.
For reaching the spells of a sorcerer of level 6.
if you use ravenous dragon too then that kobold can take a bunch more sorcerer levels while staying cr2 provided it starve itself and thanks to the extra levels it gets extra constitution due to his better equipment and then it can take loth touched and thus take more con damage and thus take more sorcerer levels.

[Kish]

I really wouldn't use this creature mostly because it's kind of a boring monster.

It's just a melee brute that should be around CR 6 but you found a RAW legal way to deprive your players of XP and Gold by making it CR 2, which is an uncool move if you ask me.
Yes, this.

"I can break the game, look at this thing where the whole point is that the developers obviously didn't intend anything like it!" is the epitome of uncool whichever side of the DM screen it's coming from.

[Erloas]

That seems more like a late game Munchkin monster than a real monster.

I'm not even finding many of those templates. Any of the -CR templates I've found so far changing things enough that I can't see this being too much of a problem.


As for the monster itself, no, it serves no purpose. To expect it to be beaten like a normal CR2 is just aiming for a TPK. Short of everyone hitting on touch even highly optimized parties aren't going to be hitting it and it has enough str that it will kill pretty much any level 2 in maybe 2 hits. Unless of course the party has a lot of monsterous races, in which case they aren't really ECL 2. If the goal is simply to make them run away then you don't have to throw all the templates on it anyway.

Now if you are wanting to give some guardians to a boss fight for a higher level party and you want keep them dangerous but not complex then it works, though you could do about the same with other creatures, so only then if you have a specific theme you're trying to fit for the area/BBEG

[Andry]

It's stuff like this that makes players quit groups.

[Dimers]

@ Other respondents: Calling ShurikVch an awful person isn't helpful or necessary. We can just answer "Nope."


So, question: would you - as a DM - ever use something similar on your PCs?

Nope. :smallamused: When I want to make a monster a certain way, I just do it -- I don't try to justify it with weird templates.

[Bucky]

That looks like a perfectly reasonable encounter-piece. I might use it if I had an active 3.5 campaign. But, as mentioned, it's not really CR2.

I'd use something like that a front-line component of a CR8+ encounter.

[gooddragon1]

I really wouldn't use this creature mostly because it's kind of a boring monster.

It's just a melee brute that should be around CR 6 but you found a RAW legal way to deprive your players of XP and Gold by making it CR 2, which is an uncool move if you ask me.

Whenever I see stuff like this and Tucker's kobolds I think of page 39 in the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide. Specifically about how hobgoblins using hang gliders and rocks are not necessarily the same CR as ones on the ground. A DM can make whatever CR they want, but they don't have to follow the tables for it and going by RAW doesn't always accommodate the actual difficulty involved.

[heavyfuel]

Whenever I see stuff like this and Tucker's kobolds I think of page 39 in the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide. Specifically about how hobgoblins using hang gliders and rocks are not necessarily the same CR as ones on the ground. A DM can make whatever CR they want, but they don't have to follow the tables for it and going by RAW doesn't always accommodate the actual difficulty involved.

I had never noticed that passage. Really interesting one for when these arguments over CR + Environment appear

Also, it was about orcs, not hobgoblins, but still :D

[Mike Miller]

Although the last couple posts already hit on this, CR is a guideline as are the "rules" around making new enemies. Obviously, your abomination is not a CR 2. You know this.

[PrismCat21]

@ Other respondents: Calling ShurikVch an awful person isn't helpful or necessary. We can just answer "Nope."
[/COLOR]

And just which respondents are you @ing exactly? I haven't seen any post calling anyone an awful person. The closest I can find is you making accusations.

Why did you include yourself on how to not call ShurikVch an awful person? - "We" can just answer 'Nope'?

[Melcar]

In the this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?574703-10-to-hit-on-CR-2), as a joke, I created an evil Juvenile Steel Dragon, who're, despite even being advanced to 15 HD, is still just CR 2

Nameless Scorned Proto-Creature Prodigy(Str) Juvenile Steel Dragon

Sure, You're may think: "Meh! A True Dragon without a spellcasting, or even a Breath Weapon! What a waste!"
For this, I will point: 15 HD Medium-sized Dragon with Str 26 (sans any possible equipment), 140 hp, and AC 27
At CR 2!

So, question: would you - as a DM - ever use something similar on your PCs?
If yes, than how:
as a random encounter
as a guardian monster
as an excuse to yell "Fly, you fools!"
as a BBEG in a low-level adventure
in a "Canned Evil (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan)"-type scenario

Also, 2nd-level party of 4 looks kinda under-leveled to take that monster (unless they're optimized though the roof)
So, will be a 2nd-level party of six enough? 4th-level party? 6th-level?

No I would not..

My players are nowhere close to that level of power at level 2, so I don't see any use for this. I want my encounters to be challenging, but still in the end I want my players to succeed. Granted, sometimes I need an encounter they cant beat, but then I just either create an NPC or use something much more powerful like an great wyrm or something. Lastly, I would want my players to get the correct amount of exp for the challenges they beat. They wouldn't here...

So I would not use this kind of challenge...

[Twurps]

Cr is supposed to be a guideline for a DM, helping him/her select chalenging encounters.

a DM actively trying to lower a CR so he can then call something 'CR appropriate' sound like a DM who want to 'win the game'.
I never play with anybody trying to win this game, player or DM alike.

[noob]

If you wanted to you could simply use ice assassins and thus grant no xp while making the adventurers fight gods after gods(it is how cr works by raw: all those ice assassins are part of the CR of a lone level 17 wizard which did cast the ice assassin who created them and since you do not beat the wizard by beating those god you do not gain the xp for beating the wizard).

[ShurikVch]

Everybody, thanks for the answers! :smallsmile:

Actually, I was well-aware of tentative "power level" of this critter


Now, to answering the replies:
I really wouldn't use this creature mostly because it's kind of a boring monster.Does it mean "non-caster" for you equal "boring monster"? :smalltongue:
Or is it "boring" in sense "no matter what, the result is predictable"?



It's just a melee brute that should be around CR 6 but you found a RAW legal way to deprive your players of XP and Gold by making it CR 2, which is an uncool move if you ask me.
Lastly, I would want my players to get the correct amount of exp for the challenges they beat. They wouldn't here...What's up, people?
Are you really never heard of "Ad-hoc XP reward" and "Treasure multipliers"? :smallconfused:



If you want stronger monsters at cr 2 there is kobolds with two npc levels and 3 levels in sorcerer since:Let me remind you: the thread for which that monster was done asked for monster with BAB 10 at CR 2
This was one of the rare cases when Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Loredrake is useless
I created this monster as a joke; but later thought: "Wait, but what's will happen is such critter appears in some actual game"?



"I can break the game, look at this thing where the whole point is that the developers obviously didn't intend anything like it!" is the epitome of uncool whichever side of the DM screen it's coming from.
It's stuff like this that makes players quit groups."There is a dragon in the mountains near the city. He kills everybody!"
If a 2nd-level party would go there - despite it's not even their quest objective - then they're completely and truly deserved their TPK (unless they got smart in the last possible moment and run away ASAP)



I'm not even finding many of those templates. Any of the -CR templates I've found so far changing things enough that I can't see this being too much of a problem. Nameless (Dragon #313): lose spellcasting, get immunity to all Mind-Affecting Effects, and always-on CL 20 Nondetection; CR -1 per 5 lost CL (unless there wasn't any CL - then +1). //Side-note: I must confess - in my haste to make it, I applied Nameless template incorrectly; it must be applied to a Dragon of at least Adult age
Scorned (Dungeon #136): +2 natural AC, Str, and Con for CR +0? It's a freebie! Also, because it don't need to eat and drink, and living forever, it's kinda good for a "Canned Evil" scenario
Proto-Creature (Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised): lose all Sp and Su abilities; +3 natural AC, +4 Str, and +2 Con; CR - same up to 3, -1 for 4-7, -2 for 8-13, -3 for 14+
Prodigy (Dungeon Master's Guide II): +2 to one ability, and also +4 to ability checks with it; CR +0 - one more freebie


I'd use something like that a front-line component of a CR8+ encounter.Are you sure?
I mean: Young Adult Steel Dragon still got all spells, Sp, Su, +1 HD - and still CR 7...



Although the last couple posts already hit on this, CR is a guideline as are the "rules" around making new enemies. Obviously, your abomination is not a CR 2. You know this.
Cr is supposed to be a guideline for a DM, helping him/her select chalenging encounters.And that's why CR may be +/- 4 rather than strictly equal to party's level
Skilled players may take +4 like no problem; experienced - could get TPK at -4



I never play with anybody trying to win this game, player or DM alike.Then you're, probably, never played before 3E - it was pretty common back then



If you wanted to you could simply use ice assassins and thus grant no xp while making the adventurers fight gods after gods(it is how cr works by raw: all those ice assassins are part of the CR of a lone level 17 wizard which did cast the ice assassin who created them and since you do not beat the wizard by beating those god you do not gain the xp for beating the wizard).They're a "part of the CR of a wizard" only if the Wizard in question created the IA during encounter with the party; otherwise - it's a separate monster - it's got CR :smallwink:

[noob]

Everybody, thanks for the answers! :smallsmile:

Actually, I was well-aware of tentative "power level" of this critter


Now, to answering the replies:Does it mean "non-caster" for you equal "boring monster"? :smalltongue:
Or is it "boring" in sense "no matter what, the result is predictable"?


What's up, people?
Are you really never heard of "Ad-hoc XP reward" and "Treasure multipliers"? :smallconfused:


Let me remind you: the thread for which that monster was done asked for monster with BAB 10 at CR 2
This was one of the rare cases when Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Loredrake is useless
I created this monster as a joke; but later thought: "Wait, but what's will happen is such critter appears in some actual game"?


"There is a dragon in the mountains near the city. He kills everybody!"
If a 2nd-level party would go there - despite it's not even their quest objective - then they're completely and truly deserved their TPK (unless they got smart in the last possible moment and run away ASAP)


Nameless (Dragon #313): lose spellcasting, get immunity to all Mind-Affecting Effects, and always-on CL 20 Nondetection; CR -1 per 5 lost CL (unless there wasn't any CL - then +1). //Side-note: I must confess - in my haste to make it, I applied Nameless template incorrectly; it must be applied to a Dragon of at least Adult age
Scorned (Dungeon #136): +2 natural AC, Str, and Con for CR +0? It's a freebie! Also, because it don't need to eat and drink, and living forever, it's kinda good for a "Canned Evil" scenario
Proto-Creature (Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised): lose all Sp and Su abilities; +3 natural AC, +4 Str, and +2 Con; CR - same up to 3, -1 for 4-7, -2 for 8-13, -3 for 14+
Prodigy (Dungeon Master's Guide II): +2 to one ability, and also +4 to ability checks with it; CR +0 - one more freebie

Are you sure?
I mean: Young Adult Steel Dragon still got all spells, Sp, Su, +1 HD - and still CR 7...


And that's why CR may be +/- 4 rather than strictly equal to party's level
Skilled players may take +4 like no problem; experienced - could get TPK at -4


Then you're, probably, never played before 3E - it was pretty common back then


They're a "part of the CR of a wizard" only if the Wizard in question created the IA during encounter with the party; otherwise - it's a separate monster - it's got CR :smallwink:

encounter is a vaguely defined thing so maybe being in the same multiverse as the wizard then being scried by the wizard counts as an encounter that lasts until the wizard no longer have any interest in you or died.

[Buufreak]

Does it mean "non-caster" for you equal "boring monster"? :smalltongue:
Or is it "boring" in sense "no matter what, the result is predictable"?

It's definitely boring in the "look, I know how to count to high numbers while also making other arbitrary numbers low" kind of way.


What's up, people?
Are you really never heard of "Ad-hoc XP reward" and "Treasure multipliers"? :smallconfused:

Looking to give out "ad-hoc" anything while also making a post arguing about CR is easily manipulatable by RAW and should be taken seriously.


Let me remind you: the thread for which that monster was done asked for monster with BAB 10 at CR 2
This was one of the rare cases when Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Loredrake is useless
I created this monster as a joke; but later thought: "Wait, but what's will happen is such critter appears in some actual game"?

People avoid it, die to it, or kill it. Same as with any monster. The difference here is if you were meta enough to say "its a CR 2 dragon" you would be tremendously misleading the party.


"There is a dragon in the mountains near the city. He kills everybody!"
If a 2nd-level party would go there - despite it's not even their quest objective - then they're completely and truly deserved their TPK (unless they got smart in the last possible moment and run away ASAP)

Or. Or you could not present the party with a glass ceiling scenario. Or give an actual hook that matters. Just saying "it's a dragon, it kills" is like saying "fire, it's hot." It doesn't matter how much experience with this game that you might have, you understand what a dragon is. Even without a skill check. Even without knowing what color it is. It's scaley. It flies. It kills. That is the definition of dragon.


Are you sure?
I mean: Young Adult Steel Dragon still got all spells, Sp, Su, +1 HD - and still CR 7...

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.


And that's why CR may be +/- 4 rather than strictly equal to party's level
Skilled players may take +4 like no problem; experienced - could get TPK at -4

Further misleading, and misunderstanding. CR is designed that a party could, with appropriate information and preparation, possibly overcome something that is +4 CR. That doesn't automatically mean that something that has been so ridiculously manipulated to have an asinine CR is entirely incapable of stomping the royal hell out of a party of like levels. Or even one a few levels higher.


Then you're, probably, never played before 3E - it was pretty common back then

Inequality. Just because that was your experience with 3e doesn't mean it was for everyone else.


They're a "part of the CR of a wizard" only if the Wizard in question created the IA during encounter with the party; otherwise - it's a separate monster - it's got CR :smallwink:

That was kinda the point. He is saying that as long as there is a wizard out there that can cheese the assassins, and you can't ever manage to kill/defeat/otherwise-stop the wizard, he can pull that crap indefinitely and it wouldn't matter how many assassins you kill, you still don't get experience for it.

[King of Nowhere]

I would only use it in the case of crazy high optimization campaigns where the party has the actual capacity to actually take that thing at level 2. You know, in a "if you can do that stuff, then I can do it too" :smalltongue:

Still, it's pointless. I don't need to stick to CR. If I have a high optimization party, it's much more effective to consider them at a higher level and throw at them higher CR enemies than it is to artificially engineer a powerful enemy with low CR. And if I want to provide the party with an encounter they have to flee, again I'd prefer to throw at them something above their weight, rather than throw at them something above their weight while artificiously lowering its CR to somehow pretend it's appropriate

[Bucky]

That looks like a perfectly reasonable encounter-piece. I might use it if I had an active 3.5 campaign. But, as mentioned, it's not really CR2.

I'd use something like that a front-line component of a CR8+ encounter.



Are you sure?
I mean: Young Adult Steel Dragon still got all spells, Sp, Su, +1 HD - and still CR 7...



Yes, I'm sure. It's not an interesting tactical encounter on its own, so I need to allocate some stuff for the back half of the encounter.

Now that you mention it, it might fit into a CR7 scheme with the right support.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This creature's backstory practically writes itself. It's a member of some progenitor species, unsophisticated but strong in its way, cast out and forgotten, hiding away in fear of the Names Ones. It would make a lot of sense as a balrog-type encounter.

[heavyfuel]

Now, to answering the replies:Does it mean "non-caster" for you equal "boring monster"? :smalltongue:
Or is it "boring" in sense "no matter what, the result is predictable"?

What's up, people?
Are you really never heard of "Ad-hoc XP reward" and "Treasure multipliers"? :smallconfused:


Half-yes for the first, full yes for the second. For second one, there's not much to elaborate. If you pit this beast against a standard 4 lv2 men party, they will all die. Maybe one or will can survive by fleeing, but that's unlikely.

As for the first question, I don't mean to say that only casters are interesting, but that this creature most definitely isn't. It can't do anything other than attack and fly. It just has high numbers to a bunch of stuff (atk, dmg, ac, hp, saves) and that's all it is. Look at another melee brute, Big T (even better if it's the PF version). It has a bunch of cool stuff it can do, none of it magical. Imagine if you were fighting it for the first time, with no previous knowledge of what it can do. Maybe you think you're smart by keeping your distance, oops, too bad, he just used his Rush ability! And the Rush ability is pretty boring as far as Big T's abilities go. Your dragon has no surprises, no tricks up its sleeves. It just rolls d20s with huge modifiers and wins because it shouldn't be a CR 2.



Yeah, I've heard of them. Matter of fact, I use them pretty much always. But if your intent is to just wing stuff like this while playing the rules to create a super strong low-CR creature, then this experiment is meaningless.

[Mike Miller]

Then you're, probably, never played before 3E - it was pretty common back then
:

You have incorrectly quoted me instead of someone else. Not a big deal, but be careful when making big quote replies like this.

[Kish]

Inequality. Just because that was your experience with 3e doesn't mean it was for everyone else.
Yes, this.

Sure, sometimes the DM/player relationship was adversarial in 3ed...and in 1ed and in 2ed. Substantially less in 3ed than in either of those two, in my experience. Though I have no experience with 4ed or 5ed, from reading the rulesets, I see no reason for it not to show up there, too.

This reads like getting an unexpected negative reaction to something (the proposed under-CRing of this creature, thereby justifying giving the player opponents less XP and treasure) and defending it with the equivalent of "everybody does it."