Struggling to Make a High-Power Desert Build

[LoyalPaladin]

Good afternoon, folks!
I'm struggling to make a high-power build that I really am excited about. Most of my ideas are struggling to find their mark and keep falling flat, so I'm open to suggestions. Here's what I need to accomplish:

Optimized around the Sorcadin/A-Game Paladin level.
Thematically fitting of a Sandstorm campaign.
Durable (hits will hurt a lot).


I'd love to be able to cast some of the cheesy Sandstorm spells like Haboob, but it's not 100% necessary. I've got some pretty bonkers character creation rules, so that should help get my power level up there. I'm fairly set on playing a half-sand dragon, since I think that would be fun in the setting. If this is possible, and I understanding it likely isn't, I'd like to aim for a two-handed greatsword type user that has some thematic spellcasting and is able to maintain a mild ranger aesthetic (navigating endless wastes of sands and the like). It's big request, I know, and I'm open to suggestions.

Character Creation
Starting Level: ECL 15
Point-Buy: 40
Starting Wealth: 750,000 gp
Flaws: 2
Traits: 1
Special: Free LA +3 reduction or 6 RHD reduction.
Banned: Psionics, Adaptability, anything beyond 1st party.


Alignment:
Race: Human
Template: Half-Dragon (Sand) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)

Misc Stats
Total HP: X/X
Total Skill Points:
Total BAB:

Saves
Fort Save:
Ref Save:
Will Save:

Ability Scores:
STR: 16 (+8)
DEX: 12
CON: 15 (+2)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 10
CHA: 16 (+2)

Stat Bumps:
4th: CON
8th: CHA
12th: CHA
16th: CHA
20th: CHA

Feats:
Flaw: Mounted Combat [PHB]
Flaw: Power Attack [PHB]
Racial Bonus: Knowledge Devotion
Domain: Earth Devotion
1st: Dynamic Priest [LotT]
3rd: Southern Magician [RoF]
6th: Touchstone (Sunken City of Pazar) [SS]
9th: Extend Spell [PHB]
12th: Persistent Spell [CAr]
15th: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) [CD]
18th:

Flaws:
-
-

Trait:
-


1st: Cleric (Earth & Knowledge Domains)
2nd: Cleric
3rd: Cleric
4th: Geomancer
5th: Geomancer
6th: Prestige Paladin
7th: Prestige Paladin
8th: Prestige Paladin
9th: Sand Shaper
10th: Sand Shaper
11th: Sand Shaper
12th: Sand Shaper
13th: Sand Shaper
14th: Sand Shaper
15th: Sand Shaper
16th: Sand Shaper
17th: Sand Shaper
18th: Sand Shaper
19th: Geomancer
20th: Geomancer
21st: Geomancer


Weapon:
Armor:
Magic Items:
Misc:



Persist Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15110369&postcount=6)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dip into sand shaper to add all of its spells to your spells known list, which is quite nice when you cast spontaneously.

Then get lots of shapesand and make yourself a desert mecha, with your party sitting inside like the Power Rangers with the Megazord.

[LoyalPaladin]

Dip into sand shaper to add all of its spells to your spells known list, which is quite nice when you cast spontaneously.
Nice. I like where this is go-


Then get lots of shapesand and make yourself a desert mecha, with your party sitting inside like the Power Rangers with the Megazord.
Wait no. Go back!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Would you prefer the Spider-Man Mech that preceded it?

https://nerdbot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/spiderman.jpg

[Falontani]

Don't have a lot of time to look into it, but:
Geomancer from complete divine can help with making your spells arcane.
Sand shaper with duskblade gives you melee, spells, and a base to go off of.
Apprentice woodsman and a dip into ranger can give you everything you need to track across the desert

[RNightstalker]

Take a level of Ranger for the greatsword proficiency and tracking, and put the rest into Druid and wildshape into a full sand dragon.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about adapting the bardsader build in my signature to use mystic ranger or druid and prestige bard or Heartfire Fanner? The other build works well enough as half-dragon, too, advanced as crusader.

[Menzath]

According to this thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427917-Sword-of-the-Arcane-Order
The feat sword of the arcane order would allow you to fake the arcane caster level needed to get one level of sandshaper on a paladin. Arguably if you were a divine caster that prepared spells the feat southern magician might work as well.

Also the builds for sorcadins and the a-game paladin are wildly different. Is there one that you are leaning more towards?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there a relatively easy way to get turn undead without losing sorcerer CLs? Because sorcerer with Southern Magician / prestige paladin 2 / sand shaper would be a decent build, and you wouldn't have to lose too many CLs. It'd be better if pp2 and ss didn't lose any, but if you're gonna be dipping paladin and taking sand shaper anyway...

Maybe make up for it with proper application of Dragonwrought kobold optimization for free sorcerer levels?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Under those build rules, a juvenile adult sand dragon with three class levels is a legal character (result is 15 HD, LA +0), as is a young adult sand dragon with two class levels (result is 11 HD, LA +4). Sand dragons have ranger-y class skills (I'm thinking of Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival) and at-will haboob...

Juvenile sand dragons don't have any racial casting, so you'd be unable to take advantage of the Loredrake archetype and casting PrCs. Young adults have racial casting, as well as SR, DR, and Frightful Presence, but they can't dip below ECL 15 unless you give up 6 RHD (and keep LA +4), which is not very attractive. Dragon Wild Shape is much more effective, but there's something cool about being a real dragon.

Incidentally, it seems that a sand dragon's breath weapon has no damage type. Sweet.

[Sleven]

Funnily enough I've played a desert-themed sorcerer before. Dragonblooded. Although he was a caster, not a gish. He communed with sand wyrms, dragons, and similar kin as a nomadic tribal mystic. Fun times.

As for your build, sorcadins aren't very good. Neither are sorcerers very good gishes. Giving up even a single spellcasting level in your progression is extremely punishing to a sorcerer unless you plan on yucking it up with serious cheese. Without jailbreaking your spells known limitation, most of the "gish" spells you'll want to cast you only need to do so at the beginning of the day (Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Luminous Armor [with Arcane Prep], etc.). To make matters worse, most of the gish options for sorcerers cost you spells known (Stalwart and Battle ACFs). You end up just being a "buffer" class because you've blown most of your spells known on gish stuff. There is some merit in having extra slots for Arcane Strike, but let's face it, it's not a very slot-efficient feat until you get numerous attacks per round and can hit consistently with them (see Polymorph). Furthermore, gishes notoriously don't perform at their given role in the early levels. So you end up waiting until around level 8-12 until your build's theme finally comes online. Of course, all this assumes a traditional level of "cheese" optimization.

Based on the power fantasy you describe, I would highly recommend rolling either a Mystic Ranger or Duskblade built around power attacking (greatsword) or an "Arcane" Swordsage (can still pull off greatsword). All three classes more or less do what you want from levels 1-20 and require very little modification. All of them are plenty powerful, easy to make "cheesy" and can easily out perform a paladin or sorcadin (at least for the first 15 levels, with regards to the sorcadin). Mystic Ranger and Arcane Swordsage definitely have the skills to get you where you want.

I know you're set on it, but the half-dragon template is one of the worst templates in D&D. Huge trap. But I suppose you can get it for "free" (note the opportunity cost of taking something better), and there is a lot of cheese you can do with the dragon type. Hell, I almost wrote a guide on it (and sorcerers) at one point.

[LoyalPaladin]

Finals have taken over my life and I'd nearly forgot I posted this! Nearly.


Would you prefer the Spider-Man Mech that preceded it?
Please no mechs. I just wanna be a desert dweller. :smalleek:


Don't have a lot of time to look into it, but:
Geomancer from complete divine can help with making your spells arcane.
Sand shaper with duskblade gives you melee, spells, and a base to go off of.
Apprentice woodsman and a dip into ranger can give you everything you need to track across the desert
I don't think I'll end up using it, but Geomancer will definitely go in my back pocket for future use. I didn't realize it was such an easy and effective one-level dip!

Sand Shaper/Duskblade might be the way to go. I'm really trying to resist the persistomancy cleric with the one-level Geomancer dip for Sandshaper. Any advice on how to obtain lots of turn attempts/day?


Take a level of Ranger for the greatsword proficiency and tracking, and put the rest into Druid and wildshape into a full sand dragon.
I think I'm going to pass on Druid, only because I really don't love it for some reason. When given the option I definitely choose ranger over druid. I have an unhealthy love of half-casters.


How about adapting the bardsader build in my signature to use mystic ranger or druid and prestige bard or Heartfire Fanner? The other build works well enough as half-dragon, too, advanced as crusader.
I might take pieces of it. I'm also not super fond of ToB, and that's on me. I'm playing at a higher power table, but in my heart the best build will always be Paladin 20. (Obviously the sleeper tier 0 class. :smalltongue: )


According to this thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427917-Sword-of-the-Arcane-Order
The feat sword of the arcane order would allow you to fake the arcane caster level needed to get one level of sandshaper on a paladin. Arguably if you were a divine caster that prepared spells the feat southern magician might work as well.

Also the builds for sorcadins and the a-game paladin are wildly different. Is there one that you are leaning more towards?
I hadn't thought of SotAO. I suppose I could go SotAO Ranger and still nab most of the spells I want access to. I'll file that way for possible build ideas. Thanks!

I always lean towards A-Game, only because I really don't enjoy playing Sorcadins. They feel like you're playing a math game without any fun flavor. A-Game is a super-support that always has fun tools and flair.


Is there a relatively easy way to get turn undead without losing sorcerer CLs? Because sorcerer with Southern Magician / prestige paladin 2 / sand shaper would be a decent build, and you wouldn't have to lose too many CLs. It'd be better if pp2 and ss didn't lose any, but if you're gonna be dipping paladin and taking sand shaper anyway...

Maybe make up for it with proper application of Dragonwrought kobold optimization for free sorcerer levels?
The further I get into this reply, the more I'm leaning towards Cleric X/Geomancer 1/Sand Shaper 1. That might just be the way to go.


Under those build rules, a juvenile adult sand dragon with three class levels is a legal character (result is 15 HD, LA +0), as is a young adult sand dragon with two class levels (result is 11 HD, LA +4). Sand dragons have ranger-y class skills (I'm thinking of Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival) and at-will haboob...

Juvenile sand dragons don't have any racial casting, so you'd be unable to take advantage of the Loredrake archetype and casting PrCs. Young adults have racial casting, as well as SR, DR, and Frightful Presence, but they can't dip below ECL 15 unless you give up 6 RHD (and keep LA +4), which is not very attractive. Dragon Wild Shape is much more effective, but there's something cool about being a real dragon.

Incidentally, it seems that a sand dragon's breath weapon has no damage type. Sweet.
Let me just open my copy of Sandstorm here... Where did you get the LA from? I'm likely to pass on this one due to the fact that they don't get alternate form. I'm going to have to go into towns frequently and I don't want to be that guy who ruins all social encounters. Are there any good ways for a true dragon to pick up alternate form easily?


Funnily enough I've played a desert-themed sorcerer before. Dragonblooded. Although he was a caster, not a gish. He communed with sand wyrms, dragons, and similar kin as a nomadic tribal mystic. Fun times.
I've played in a desert themed game before, but I really failed to hit the mark on flavor. It's a really cool aesthetic that I plan on doing justice this time around!


As for your build, sorcadins aren't very good. Neither are sorcerers very good gishes. Giving up even a single spellcasting level in your progression is extremely punishing to a sorcerer unless you plan on yucking it up with serious cheese. Without jailbreaking your spells known limitation, most of the "gish" spells you'll want to cast you only need to do so at the beginning of the day (Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Luminous Armor [with Arcane Prep], etc.). To make matters worse, most of the gish options for sorcerers cost you spells known (Stalwart and Battle ACFs). You end up just being a "buffer" class because you've blown most of your spells known on gish stuff. There is some merit in having extra slots for Arcane Strike, but let's face it, it's not a very slot-efficient feat until you get numerous attacks per round and can hit consistently with them (see Polymorph). Furthermore, gishes notoriously don't perform at their given role in the early levels. So you end up waiting until around level 8-12 until your build's theme finally comes online. Of course, all this assumes a traditional level of "cheese" optimization.
I'm starting at level 15, so I can take advantage of most things. I don't want to play a Sorcadin, but I need to hit that level of opt. I expect my party to be consistently dealing lots of damage and having all the answers they need in their back pocket. They'll also probably be making epic skill checks at pre-epic levels, so I need to make sure to hit that mark...


Based on the power fantasy you describe, I would highly recommend rolling either a Mystic Ranger or Duskblade built around power attacking (greatsword) or an "Arcane" Swordsage (can still pull off greatsword). All three classes more or less do what you want from levels 1-20 and require very little modification. All of them are plenty powerful, easy to make "cheesy" and can easily out perform a paladin or sorcadin (at least for the first 15 levels, with regards to the sorcadin). Mystic Ranger and Arcane Swordsage definitely have the skills to get you where you want.
I think Duskblade has the numbers I need to deal high damage and the HD I need to stay alive, I'm just not sure I want to play one. I could probably nail the aesthetic I want with one. Swordsage is ToB, so I'll probably pass on it. Definitely looking into Mystic Ranger at this point, considering so many people have mentioned it.


I know you're set on it, but the half-dragon template is one of the worst templates in D&D. Huge trap. But I suppose you can get it for "free" (note the opportunity cost of taking something better), and there is a lot of cheese you can do with the dragon type. Hell, I almost wrote a guide on it (and sorcerers) at one point.
I wish there was a better sand dragon template for 3 LA, but them's the breaks. It's free, so I won't complain. It's got numbers and flavor, and with a 40 PB I can do what I need with other numbers.

Any noteable dragon type cheese I should look into?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about Dragonwrought loredrake kobold crusader 1/sorcerer 4/sand shaper 1/jade phoenix mage? It's got fire stuff, it's got healing, it's got martial maneuvers, it's got that paladin feeling without actually being a paladin, and it's got sand spells, and the extra two levels of sorcerer make up for losing them elsewhere.

Plus, phoenixes originated in Egypt, which is now largely very much a desert.

[LoyalPaladin]

How about Dragonwrought loredrake kobold crusader 1/sorcerer 4/sand shaper 1/jade phoenix mage? It's got fire stuff, it's got maneuvers, it's got that paladin feeling without actually being a paladin, and it's got sand spells, and the extra two levels of sorcerer make up for losing them elsewhere.

Plus, phoenixes originated in Egypt, which is now largely very much a desert.
I hate shooting down all these suggestions, but I'd really like to avoid ToB. I just don't love it.

I'm currently reading through WhamBamSam's true dragon handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)) for some ideas. He has a way to nab alternate form it looks like, so that might be plausible if I want to play a true sand-dragon. I'd avoid kobolds though, since they feel like cheap knock-off dragons. :smalltongue:


Some also argue that this opens up the ability to take the later Racial Substitution Levels in the Dragonblood Sorcerer and Dragonblood Cleric (RotD) without taking the other levels first, as the dragonblood subtype is listed as a prerequisite alongside the appropriate level of Sorcerer or Cleric. The argument is that by ignoring the "Cleric level 9th" or "Sorcerer level 7th" prerequisite, the dragon can skip the prior levels. However, there are broader rules about Racial Substitution Levels which prohibit this. So while you may qualify for the higher racial substitution level at all times, you cannot take it at any level other than the corresponding level in the class. Essentially, the only time you can check to see if you qualify in any meaningful way is when you are about to take the level being substituted.
I'm interested in the 9th level Dragonblood Cleric substitution level, since that seems exceptionally good?

[Falontani]

Shai'ir 1: Precocious Apprentice
Duskblade 2-6
Sandshaper 7
Geomancer (advancing duskblade casting) 8-13
(split away from my build advice here if you absolutely do not want maneuvers/stances, however the Desert Wind school of maneuvers is very thematic to what you want to do, if you want to do something else run Abjurant Champion 5 just to make yourself a powerful gish, use Shai'ir to grab Mage Armor and Shield as often as you need using the weird rules of Shai'ir)
14 swordsage
15-20 Jade Phoenix Mage

This build gets you just shy of 5th level spells, you can cast a touch spell and perform a melee strike in a single round, and can probably convince your DM to allow you to cast a touch spell and perform a standard action maneuver at the same time. It gets you a bunch of the fun things in jade phoenix mage, and some of the fun maneuvers in Desert Wind. Geomancer allows you to cast all your arcane spells as divine, meaning no ASF for wearing armor if you so choose to.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always refluff your Dragonwrought loredrake kobold (with a few templates, for the free LA) as a sand wyrmling who decided he didn't want to wait to grow powerful enough to survive on his own, so he started training his scaly little arse off, instead. He learned to walk upright and wield weapons, which has altered his physical and magical development somewhat.

D&D campaign worlds are seriously dangerous deathworlds, after all, and I doubt wyrmlings out on their own survive very long.

That's the motivation for this shadow dragon (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6641915/1/Shadow-of-Zero). He's extremely young (by dragon standards), but he can kick the arse of most dragons ten times his age.

[LoyalPaladin]

I've got a lot of feats to play with, I'm wondering if DMM Persist is the way to go. I could net a lot of passive benefits from it and grab Rebuke Dragons to stack with Turn Undead from Prestige Paladin for the DMM part. Can I get thoughts on Cleric 3 (Southern Magician at 3rd level)/Geomancer 2/Prestige Paladin 3/Sand Shaper 7? I know I'd be sacrificing some casting power through Prestige Paladin, but I want that divine grace! Sand Shaper is too cool to pass up and Geomancer 2 nets me Leyline for the desert. The game is 100% in a giant desert, so all the desert related things in Sand Shaper are actually pretty potent.

[Blackhawk748]

I know it's not High Op, but you may wanna take a look at Dragon Pacts from Dragon Magic. For your highest level spell slot, and some money, you get a suite of SLAs. Some are rather nice actually

[ExLibrisMortis]

Let me just open my copy of Sandstorm here... Where did you get the LA from? I'm likely to pass on this one due to the fact that they don't get alternate form. I'm going to have to go into towns frequently and I don't want to be that guy who ruins all social encounters. Are there any good ways for a true dragon to pick up alternate form easily?
The LA is listed at the start of the monster entry, before any of the actual stats show up (it's like that for all dragon entries). Any dragon can pick up Alternate Form with the feat of that name in Dragons of Eberron (page 15), but you need five levels in sorcerer to qualify, which is a bit tricky. At that point, you might as well use a phylactery of change, because you seem to have a ton of wealth (a psychoactive skin of the proteus would be nicer, but that's a psionic item).

[RNightstalker]

I've got a lot of feats to play with, I'm wondering if DMM Persist is the way to go. I could net a lot of passive benefits from it and grab Rebuke Dragons to stack with Turn Undead from Prestige Paladin for the DMM part. Can I get thoughts on Cleric 3 (Southern Magician at 3rd level)/Geomancer 2/Prestige Paladin 3/Sand Shaper 7? I know I'd be sacrificing some casting power through Prestige Paladin, but I want that divine grace! Sand Shaper is too cool to pass up and Geomancer 2 nets me Leyline for the desert. The game is 100% in a giant desert, so all the desert related things in Sand Shaper are actually pretty potent.
Do you know what the rest of the party is going to do? Unless you dump a lot of feats into Extra Turning or the DM allows Nightstick abuse, you’ll burn through your turning really quick with DMM Persist. If there’s an Incantatrix in the party, they can Cooperative Metamagic some things for you so can save your turning to power divine or devotion feats, or DMM Quicken.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can halve the number of turning attempts you need per day via Extend Spell.