How Would You -- Build This Character in 5e

[Max_Killjoy]

So from some other threads, you might have noted that I'm working on / helping with something, and trying to learn 5e.

A thing I'm working on is a character, based on a very old PC of mine, and as an aside to that, trying to work out at least the basics for that character in 5e.

She's the one who always has a trick up her sleeve, a jack of all trades, a tinkerer, an explorer, and a shrewd fighter. She's a bit intense, and caught up in her work and reading and tinkering, and slow to trust, but if she calls you "friend" she absolutely means it. A bit of a deadpan snarker. Stubborn almost to the point of being a "determinator".

Her left eye is an artificial replacement (see backstory), which IIRC could switch from normal, to darkvision, to infravision, to a couple of "detects".

Fights with a short sword, using the very heavy armor on her left arm as a shield.

In older systems, she'd be set up as a skill and lore monkey, with with good "saves" across the board to represent her shrewd, hardened, stubborn nature.



Kazi Kazuri was born into Clan Luminkos of the great north (known to outsiders as snow elves). From an early age, she spent a great deal of time reading in the study of her uncle, Sakari Gallen, a respected vehlo (sage and wizard). Of all the books she read, those detailing the workings of intricate devices, or the deeds of clever heroes, were her favorites. The other children viewed her as a bit odd, with her bookish, tinkering manner; and the whispers of a human grandfather on one side didn't help.

As she grew up, a boy from a neighboring town came to study with her uncle. Ilmari Korhonen had a gift for alchemy, and a bit too much confidence in his own talents, and was a bit too caught up in the romantic side of old stories. And he took more than a bit of a liking to Kazi. But, try as he might, he couldn't get more than a sort of obligatory friendliness out of her. Finally, in an effort to impress her, he tried to make a miniature alchemical apparatus; but in the rush to show it to her, something went horribly wrong. The explosion of flaming reagents, glass, and magic left Ilmari burned, bruised and cut... and nearly wrecked Kazi. Ilmari snuck out of town still bandaged and aching, unable to face what he had done.

Her uncle and the town healer were able to patch her wounds, and own raw refusal to die or quit kept her going, but Kazi's left eye was ruined and her face scarred, and her left arm was all but lame from the elbow down. Kazi went back to her books, and hatched a plan. Through his network of friends and colleagues, her uncle arranged for the help of a great articifer in bringing that plan to fruition. They made an eye for Kazi, better than the one she had lost. They made armor for her ruined arm, not just to protect it, but to make it work again, as strong as an orc and as impervious as granite. She trained with the sword as well, learning to defend herself and outmaneuver an opponent.

Eventually, she set out into the world, to see its wonders and tragedies, to find her own way, and maybe become the sort of clever hero she'd read about in her books. She found comrades, and lost some of them, along the way.

Years later, Ilmari showed up in her life again, something of a penitent adventurer, still seeing the world through the lens of those old romantic tales, determined to "make it up to her". She had no interest in his help, and told him in no uncertain terms that she was the hero of her own story, not a character in his.

“I am not your tragic backstory… I am not your redemption arc.”



Half-elf... well, 3/4 elf. Tallish, thin, a bit pale. Her right eye is green. Left side of her face has a scar from hairline to jawline. Left eye, the artificial one, is black with a red iris, and a touch larger/rounder than her normal right eye. Might be beyond the level of detail for this project, but it should have a bit of a glow and have runes around the iris.

Wearing a mid-thigh-length dark coat with pockets inside and out. It should have some heft and structure to it, with notable shoulders and collar, “chunky”. Should not have a shaped, pinched, or “hourglass” waist, but rather hang straight – functional kit, not fashion. It's also functional protection from the elements and from arrows (a fantasy version of the cinematic "bulletproof trenchcoat"). The coat should be depicted as fully open, however, to show all the various things she’s wearing / carrying underneath.

Chainmail over a heavy shirt -- but a lot of the detail is probably hidden by all the belts, straps, pouches, and compartments she's wearing. Short sword and multiple daggers, sheathed about her person.

Boots to below the knee -- practical and fairly hefty. She doesn't do fancy or frilly or a lot of decoration. Knife sheathed on inner side of one boot.

Loose trousers, dark grey. Nothing tight or clingy on this character.

Maybe a scarf loose around her neck, if it doesn't hide anything or add too much overlapping detail. (A habit she has from growing up in the far cold north.)

Goggles pushed up on her forehead. Her hair should be unruly, even a bit shaggy, as if it would fall over her face if the goggles weren't there (and she does let if fall over the left side of her face if she's hiding her scar and eye). Not quite to her shoulders, say mid-neck-length.

Wearing intricate heavy plate armor on her left arm, to above the elbow -- it's actually enchanted and prosthetic, restoring function to her otherwise lame arm. The sleeve of her coat on that side is rolled up to the elbow to make room for the armor. Should have an almost mechanical feel, see "Gauntlet" reference images. It's actually strong and impervious enough that she uses it as a shield in combat, blocking sword strikes and hammer blows without damage.



So, what would you recommend? All I have right now are cheap used copies of PHB and XgtE.

If you need to know more, please ask.


I wanted to use the Artificer, because, well, at least in general terms being an artificer is big part of where the character comes from.

But at least so far, the published unofficial class seems... just a bit off.

https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/1_UA_Artificer_20170109.pdf
http://dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Artificer

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570650-Artificer
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572351-Artificers!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553998-UA-Artificer-OP
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538837-Thoughts-on-the-5e-Artificer

And a couple of threads that touch on my struggles with 5e, just for reference:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570981-Level-Based-Abilities-Class-Level-vs-Total-Level
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?575708-What-things-would-you-like-to-see-fixed-in-5e


The old old campaign she came from was described by one of the players as "D&D: The Anime". :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

Before any question of class or build: have you read the Tinkerer's Kit rules in the Xanathar's?

If yes, do you think it's appropriate for your PC?

[Vogie]

For Class blends for this concept, you have a couple options

For a Charisma-based build: Lore Bard 5 / Warlock X
Lore bard gives the skillmonkey abilities, and the Cutting Words is refluffed as your use of your arm to shield yourself. The "Warlock Patron" you choose is refluffed as augmentations via technology. You can get even more proficiencies with Beguiling Influence. The Cybernetic eye is available by invocations of Devil's sight, Eldritch Sight, and possibly Eyes of the Rune Keeper. Blade pact isn't required, but it's the only way to get a second attack.

For first level, you'll pick Bard (for prof to Dex saves, and to have Shortsword proficiencies), and your level 5 will probably be Bard 3/Warlock 2, your level 8 is Bard 3 / Warlock 5 (for Thirsting Blade), and you'll be at Warlock 5/ Bard 5 at 10. You'll also have access to rapiers, if you aren't tied to a shortsword specifically.

For an Intellect-based Build: War Wizard 3 / Rogue X
Like the above, your wizard levels are refluffed as technology. You can "cast" Darkvision or Detect Magic with your eye. Your Arcane Deflection is refluffed as blocking things with your cybernetic arm. Your rogue levels allow you to collect proficiencies. Any of the rogue archetypes will work, but Scout is probably best to make you even more of a skill monkey.

For first level, you'll be a Rogue (same reasons as above), and your level 5 will be Rogue 3 / Wizard 2, your level 8 will be Rogue 5 / Wizard 3, and then you'd just add more Rogue levels. Like the above blend, You'll also have access to rapiers, if you aren't tied to a shortsword specifically. However, you can get a faux extra attack by duel wielding a shortsword and dagger.

For a Wisdom-based Build: Kensai Monk 3-5 / Gloom Stalker Ranger X
Kensai gives you the Wushu feel via Step of the wind, and allows you to choose between Shortsword & Dagger or Rapier & Fist. The Agile Parry feature allows you to boost your AC, using your "arm" as a shield until the next turn. Your Darkvision comes from the Gloom Stalker feature, and, like the above build, you get to add your Wisdom to your initiative. You don't have to get more than 3 levels in Monk, but going up to 5 to get access to Stunning Strike (and more ki = more abilities) is a decent idea. The rest of your levels are in Ranger for overall better class features. However, if like the Anime-esque features, you could also pull off this build with Ranger 3 / Monk X. Either way, you also get the ability to use Unarmed Defense feature rather than Medium armor. You can look up the Revised Ranger UA for a slightly more powerful Ranger, but it isn't required, nor is it allowed in things like AL

For this build, you'll start with Ranger first for more skill proficiencies, and you'll be looking at being at Ranger 2 / Monk 3 by level 5. By level 8, you should be at either Ranger 3/ Monk 5 OR Monk 3 / Ranger 5, depending on which one you want to follow.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think Hexblade 2, into Rogue Swashbuckler is going to be the best case scenario here.

Hexblade 2 grants you your shield + medium armor, which fits what you're looking for. It also gets you a reflavored Devil's Sight (Darkvision/Infravision), as well as Hexblade's Curse (the ability to "lock on" to a target with one of the odd features of your eye). You also gain access to Shield, which reflects her ability to block powerful attacks and her durability.

The Swashbuckler directly ties into her snarkiness, being a melee combatant that insults people in combat, and you'll have a decent number of talents. You can also get Evasion, which ties into the saving throws you're looking for.

Kensei also somewhat fits, reflavoring the +2 AC effect as a "shield", and having high saving throws, but it's definitely less on the charismatic side of things.

[RipTide]

You can make this just going pure valor bard. Bards are the best skill monkeys, and then just pick up a tinkerers kit through your background choice, plus they have the Jack of all trades class feature so there is that. Valor gives medium armor and shields then bard gets short sword by default so there are no issues getting the weapons you want, but no heavy armor so chain shirt rather than chain mail.

Another option would be Warlock Hexblade 1-3 / any Bard X. Hexblade gives you all the melee fighting proficiency and access to the SCAG cantrips so you don't need extra attack to be an effective melee fighter, as well as letting you use CHA for attack and damage on your weapons. Then still bard for the skill monkey bit, but your subclass can be more flexible, Wispers for a more rogue-ish bend, Lore for more magical flexibility, or swords for pure melee. Hexblade 1 just gets you the melee proficiency. At 2 you get invocations which can give you devils sight (120ft darkvison through even magical darkness), Eldritch Sight(free detect magic), or Eyes of the runkeeper(read all written languages) which can all be fluffed as settings for your eye. 3 for a pact boon if you want ritual casting or a familiar.

[KorvinStarmast]

A thing I'm working on is a character, based on a very old PC of mine, and as an aside to that, trying to work out at least the basics for that character in 5e. What level is this PC starting at. 1, or something more? I have an idea, but I'd like to know that first.

Also, is the eye considered an attuned magic item, an un-attuned magic item, of does its effect need to be folded into the character in some other way.

[Max_Killjoy]

Before any question of class or build: have you read the Tinkerer's Kit rules in the Xanathar's?

If yes, do you think it's appropriate for your PC?

Just got it last night, so let's go take a look at that...

Hmm... sounds like just mundane work. Something she'd certainly carry and use, but not really getting into the actual artificer side.


The thing I liked about the Alchemist subclass was all the non-damaging tricks, and the minor magic... but then looking at it in detail, it's not really much of an actual artificer with either subclass, is it?

[Max_Killjoy]

What level is this PC starting at. 1, or something more? I have an idea, but I'd like to know that first.

Also, is the eye considered an attuned magic item, an un-attuned magic item, of does its effect need to be folded into the character in some other way.

I had been looking at 6 total levels for this.

The eye should be bound to her, and be as natural to her as her normal eye.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think Hexblade 2, into Rogue Swashbuckler is going to be the best case scenario here.

Hexblade 2 grants you your shield + medium armor, which fits what you're looking for. It also gets you a reflavored Devil's Sight (Darkvision/Infravision), as well as Hexblade's Curse (the ability to "lock on" to a target with one of the odd features of your eye). You also gain access to Shield, which reflects her ability to block powerful attacks and her durability.

The Swashbuckler directly ties into her snarkiness, being a melee combatant that insults people in combat, and you'll have a decent number of talents. You can also get Evasion, which ties into the saving throws you're looking for.

Kensei also somewhat fits, reflavoring the +2 AC effect as a "shield", and having high saving throws, but it's definitely less on the charismatic side of things.

Hexblade -- depends on the DM allowing fluff/crunch break so that it's those mechanics, but no actual patron/pact necessary.

Swashbuckler -- probably emphasizes the insults too much, that's more just about her personality.

Kensai -- I did look at this one, and it fit in some ways.

[Unoriginal]

Just got it last night, so let's go take a look at that...

Hmm... sounds like just mundane work. Something she'd certainly carry and use, but not really getting into the actual artificer side.


The thing I liked about the Alchemist subclass was all the non-damaging tricks, and the minor magic... but then looking at it in detail, it's not really much of an actual artificer with either subclass, is it?

Well, let's reformulate:

What do you want you character to be able to accomplish?

"Being an artificier" or "the actual artificer side" doesn't mean anything by itself, in a vacuum. You have to tell us what you want your PC to be able to do, once you're at the table and the PC in the world.

Is it crafting magic items?

[Vorpalchicken]

Regarding the eye, my instinct was also Warlock (refluffed of course) for the vision and detection functions. But since you don't want to go that route, congratulations! You are a half elf and already have darkvision. And infravision is not a thing in 5e. Fluff it however you like, but there are no free lunches.

If you want the DM to give her a magic eye that does more (or you are the DM) such as function like a wand of detect magic, keep in mind that the other characters should have an equivalent magic item.

Since you've ditched the warlock levels, you can focus on one class. Given your style, I might recommend Sword Bard. Again the fluff doesn't fit- that needs to be reworked. Arcane trickster may fit better without refluffing but that means your one non-enchantment/illusion 1st level spell would have to be "detect magic" and you couldn't cast it as a ritual. (Unless you have the eye- wand.)

As far as the metal arm goes, If I were DM I might count it as the equivalent of a chain shirt for defense- not cumulative with any other armour. Ok there's a free lunch. What I would not do is give you a free "hands free shield." You can take that request back up the yellow brick road.

[Max_Killjoy]

Regarding the eye, my instinct was also Warlock (refluffed of course) for the vision and detection functions. But since you don't want to go that route, congratulations! You are a half elf and already have darkvision. And infravision is not a thing in 5e. Fluff it however you like, but there are no free lunches.

If you want the DM to give her a magic eye that does more (or you are the DM) such as function like a wand of detect magic, keep in mind that the other characters should have an equivalent magic item.

Since you've ditched the warlock levels, you can focus on one class. Given your style, I might recommend Sword Bard. Again the fluff doesn't fit- that needs to be reworked. Arcane trickster may fit better without refluffing but that means your one non-enchantment/illusion 1st level spell would have to be "detect magic" and you couldn't cast it as a ritual. (Unless you have the eye- wand.)

As far as the metal arm goes, If I were DM I might count it as the equivalent of a chain shirt for defense- not cumulative with any other armour. Ok there's a free lunch. What I would not do is give you a free "hands free shield." You can take that request back up the yellow brick road.

I'm not rejecting Warlock out of hand, only noting that it's dependent on on "fluff flexible" a DM is. If treating class levels as a toolkit rather than destiny, I'm fine with using Warlock or any other levels.

[solidork]

Try checking out this homebrewed Artificer class. The Gadgeteer sounds like it's right up your alley.

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LAEn6ZdC6lYUKhQ67Qk

[KorvinStarmast]

I had been looking at 6 total levels for this.

The eye should be bound to her, and be as natural to her as her normal eye.
Unless you wish to go Hexblade or Valor Bard (both previously covered) I recommend Swashbuckler 4 / Warlock (GOO) 2.

1. The eye has become bound to her via the power/agency of the Great Old One. Unexplainable, but it happens, and thus is not an attuned magic item. It has actually succeeded beyond her uncle's expectations. (The great artificer is actually a GOO Warlock, but that fact is a secret.)

2. Stats based on point buy: S 8/ D 16 / C 14 / I 10 / W 12 / Ch 16
3. Feat: Moderately Armored
4. Armor: Chain Shirt
5. Shield: that thing on her arm.
6. Weapons: short sword, many daggers
7. Background: Guild Artisan (Tinkers, pewterers, and casters)
8. Tools: {Tinkerer's Tools(artisan)}, {Thieves Tools(rogue)},
9. Language: Pick one that fits the campaign, you get an extra.
10. Proficiencies (Rogue 4, 1/2E 2, BG 2): Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception, Arcana, Investigation, History, Insight, Persuasion
11. Expertise: Tinkerer's Tools, Stealth; (In lieu of Stealth, maybe pick a different one .. Acrobatics might fit your anime theme better)
12. GOO Patron: This is a thematic pick. The way you described this character, she seems perfect for Awakened Mind

Starting at 1st level, your alien knowledge gives you the ability to touch the minds of other creatures.
I think this fits and can be worked into another feature of her eye, flavor-wise, if you need it to ...
13. Cantrips: Eldritch Blast; Mage Hand
14. Spells at level 2: Hex, Witch Bolt (The latter is a steam punk choice, for thematic reasons; electric bolts/power bolts zapping an enemy ... )
15. Invocations: Eyes of the Runekeeper (Thematic choice, studious, languages); Agonizing or Repelling Blast. Pick one.

And Before Anyone Gets Their Optimizer On ...
Yes, I know that Hex Blade or Valor Bard gets medium plus shield. Those options have already been covered.
This suggestion gets a feat rather than a +2 dex or cha bump since a Repelling blast can move enemies away from the pack ... Dash to stay close ... then the next round a chance to engage solo and get sneak attack ... and, if later Max wants heavy armor, like actual chain mail, Heavy Armor is unlocked with this.

@Max

Who else is in the party?

When I get to where books are, I'll take a look at "bard, college of swords" and see if that might fit. Don't have XGTE with me.

[Max_Killjoy]

No idea about party -- if I ever get to run this character in the future that's a bonus. This is more for a project than a campaign.

Random thoughts...
* I did have College of Swords on my list of things to dig deeper on.
* If Kensai Monk can have the fluff of an actual monastery stripped off and simply represent her "determinator" personality trait and self-training, it might work.


In terms of what I want the character to do:
* Based more on skill and knowledge than raw power.
* Fighting, with a bag of tricks instead of brute force or raw biggest attacks -- this was the appeal of both Battlemaster Fighter and Alchemist Artificer.
* Some magic -- sensory and utility spells matter more than spamming fireballs
* Good enough with artifice and alchemy to have had a hand in designing / making her eye and armor, and able to maintain them.
* "Determinator (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator)"

[rahimka]

KorvinStarmast touches on something I was going to recommend in a slightly different way, don't bother to re-fluff the Warlock stuff if you use it in the build. Instead, make the character herself UNAWARE of how the Eye works.

Sure, she THINKS it's a great piece of magic artificing, but what she doesn't realize is that her Uncle and the local healer had far less success in her repair and physical rehab than they let on to her. In his desperation to save his beloved niece, the Uncle reached out to dark powers for the knowledge on how to construct it. He was deeply ashamed of his failure to help her on his own and regretted what he'd done to obtain the knowledge (and materials...) for building the eye, so he lied to her about its origin and design.

Now she's got this piece of SOMETHING bound to her and growing more powerful as she unlocks/discovers more of its abilities (ie levels up as a Warlock)... she has strange dreams that she attributes to lingering trauma from the accident... sometimes (when/after she uses the powers of the Eye) she can't shake the feeling that she's being watched...

EDIT: As her own skill as an Artificer grows, maybe she slowly catches on to what has happened based on how the Eye's abilities don't actually line up with what it should and shouldn't be able to do; leaving the door open to a fun personal sidequest where she has to figure out what to actually DO about it

[KorvinStarmast]

Instead, make the character herself UNAWARE of how the Eye works. {Snip rest of post} Nicely done. :smallsmile:

[Unoriginal]

Here how I would do it:

Forge Cleric. Just fluff the spells as technology, and explain the spell slots as the tech requiring some kind of magic fuel which your character brew during long rests.

[Max_Killjoy]

Re: the eye being "cursed" -- That's a great backstory element and Flaw... but maybe for a different character.

For this character, it kinda breaks the idea that she's never the bystander in her own life. The eye was partially her design.

[Unoriginal]

That's a great backstory element and Flaw... but maybe for a different character.

For this character, it kinda breaks the idea that she's never the bystander in her own life.

Objectively speaking, though, this character IS the bystander in her own life. At least in the backstory.

She is from a certain clan. She has an important uncle. Uncle's apprentice pursue her romantically. Uncle's apprentice **** up and seriously wound her. Uncle fixes her (with some help from herself).

That backstory is all about how things happened to her, not about how she did anything (aside from rejecting the apprentice's advances, which is less doing something than refusing to do something).

[Max_Killjoy]

Objectively speaking, though, this character IS the bystander in her own life. At least in the backstory.

She is from a certain clan. She has an important uncle. Uncle's apprentice pursue her romantically. Uncle's apprentice **** up and seriously wound her. Uncle fixes her (with some help from herself).

That backstory is all about how things happened to her, not about how she did anything (aside from rejecting the apprentice's advances, which is less doing something than refusing to do something).

Then my writing failed. It had to fit on a single page at the time I wrote it, and I didn't get the right angle.

I need to re-write it to capture more of her active involvement.

So thank you.

[strangebloke]

Focusing on the 'explorer' angle:

Half-Elf Fighter 1/Arcane Trickster Rogue 6

Starting Stats: 16/14/13/14/8/10
Feats/ASIs: Resilient[CON]
Equipment: Shield, shortsword, breastplate(eventually mithril halfplate)
Expertise: Tinkerer's Tools, Athletics, Investigation, Thieves Tools
Proficiencies: Stealth, Insight, Intimidation
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Mage Hand (learned it for when the prosthesis needs repair), Minor Illusion, Mending
Fighting Style: Defense

Basically you're really mobile, your AC is great, you've got 2/3 important saves covered, you've got uncanny dodge to make you even tougher, and your cantrips and expertise makes you a master at dealing with 'tech' based challenges, though you aren't the best spotter. I don't see your character as terribly charismatic; she doesn't make efforts to make people like her at all even if she's incredibly strong-willed.

As an optimized it physically pains me not to make this character a mountain dwarf and dump the fighter level, but hey. They heart wants what the heart wants.

Focusing on the 'artificer' angle:

Half Elf Forge Cleric 6
Starting Stats: 14/8/16/10/16/10
Equipment: Plate, Shortsword, +1 Shield (AC:22)
Feats: Warcaster
Proficiencies: Tinkerer's Tools, Investigation, Insight, Perception, Armorer's Tools?

You've got a lot of magic that helps you make stuff, in addition to your skills. At a later level you can pick up Shield Master to effectively get evasion and DEX save proficiency. Those feats together effectively make you proficient at all common saves, which is pretty dope. You've also got great HP and AC, so overall this character is tough as a brick. Refluff the 'divine' casting as being arcane artificery. You didn't cast Silence as a ritual, you took ten minutes to rig together a temporary silence-creating field!

[Max_Killjoy]

Lots of interesting twists on using classes differently here.

How common is it for DMs these days to be cool with this level of "refluffing"?

[Unoriginal]

How common is it for DMs these days to be cool with this level of "refluffing"?

Hard to give an answer. I don't see many reasons why a DM wouldn't be ok with that level of refluffing. The only reasons I could imagine are:

-they think this particular refluffing doesn't fit their campaign

-they are against any class ability refluffing.

In guessing, I would say that being against that level of refluffing is not common, and most DMs are neutral about it but authorize it when they see the player handles it well.

[Max_Killjoy]

Try checking out this homebrewed Artificer class. The Gadgeteer sounds like it's right up your alley.

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LAEn6ZdC6lYUKhQ67Qk


Certainly some interesting stuff there, an improvement on what's in UA.

[Max_Killjoy]

Currently working on a summary post of all the ideas so far, but, for now...

What are your thoughts on swapping out the "primary attribute" of a class was re-skinning it?

For example, swapping INT in place of CHA if using a Bard re-skin to build a scholarly or arcane-casting character?

[strangebloke]

Currently working on a summary post of all the ideas so far, but, for now...

What are your thoughts on swapping out the "primary attribute" of a class was re-skinning it?

For example, swapping INT in place of CHA if using a Bard re-skin to build a scholarly or arcane-casting character?

As a DM... yeah, I'd allow it.

I already made Warlocks an INT class in my game.

[Unoriginal]

Currently working on a summary post of all the ideas so far, but, for now...

What are your thoughts on swapping out the "primary attribute" of a class was re-skinning it?

For example, swapping INT in place of CHA if using a Bard re-skin to build a scholarly or arcane-casting character?

It's not a re-skin, then, it's homebrewing. Getting your DM approval for it is needed.

[Arkhios]

It's not a re-skin, then, it's homebrewing. Getting your DM approval for it is needed.

Yeah, although Crawford (lead designer) has given his "blessings" for swapping warlock's charisma for intelligence in twitter, but as such it's not official ruling, but more of his personal opinion whether it breaks anything (his view is: "It doesn't").

I'd hazard to say that changing Bard's Charisma to Intelligence wouldn't break anything either. I would even let them swap charisma saving throw for intelligence saving throw.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, although Crawford (lead designer) has given his "blessings" for swapping warlock's charisma for intelligence in twitter, but as such it's not official ruling, but more of his personal opinion whether it breaks anything (his view is: "It doesn't").

I'd hazard to say that changing Bard's Charisma to Intelligence wouldn't break anything either. I would even let them swap charisma saving throw for intelligence saving throw.

The question is not if it breaks anything, but if it changes anything mechanically. And it does, so it needs DM approval, which is best sought before making the character.

[Arkhios]

The question is not if it breaks anything, but if it changes anything mechanically. And it does, so it needs DM approval, which is best sought before making the character.

Yes, I didn't mean to dispute that. I just said my opinion (backed up with Crawford's) as a DM.

[Lombra]

Sounds like a rogue/fighter with a homebrewed magical item (the eye) to me. Talk to your DM about the eye, the rest is all flavor.

[tieren]

I was thinking eldritch knight/arcane trickster.

Tons of useful abjurations, and utility spells, blasting isn't a great option by the time you get the good ones, so use those slots for detection/utility.

Get the armor you want, lots of skills/tools/expertise, etc...Extra attack and sneak attack to get in those strategically placed blows.

An interest in magic and the inner workings of things without being a bookish wizard by itself. You are a fighter rogue with a focus in figuring things out and accomplishing things with your tech straight mundanes can't.

Maybe mage hand is really some kind of inspector gadget extension of the arm.

[Max_Killjoy]

I was thinking eldritch knight/arcane trickster.

Tons of useful abjurations, and utility spells, blasting isn't a great option by the time you get the good ones, so use those slots for detection/utility.

Get the armor you want, lots of skills/tools/expertise, etc...Extra attack and sneak attack to get in those strategically placed blows.

An interest in magic and the inner workings of things without being a bookish wizard by itself. You are a fighter rogue with a focus in figuring things out and accomplishing things with your tech straight mundanes can't.

Maybe mage hand is really some kind of inspector gadget extension of the arm.

So a multi-class EK/AT?

I'll dig into that possibility as well.

[Arkhios]

So a multi-class EK/AT?

I'll dig into that possibility as well.

Here's one adjustment to it, if you think that higher level spells are more of a dressing on the cake:

Eldritch Knight 9/Arcane Trickster 9/War Wizard 2.


Sure, you'll get only as high as 2nd level spells known, but at least you'll get every bit of juice you need from each class:

Both EK and AT accumulate a total of 6 spellcasting levels (3+3) and wizard yet another 2 for a maximum of 8th multiclass-spellcasting level.

In regards to the amount of spell slots you'll get, it's actually better with 2 × 4th-level spell slots - one more than a single-classed EK or AT would have (they count as 7th level spellcasters at the end).

As for the other things you get with this, Arcane Deflection is golden for your idea to having "good saves all around" without confining yourself into a "must be paladin" trope.

Extra Attack AND Sneak Attack +5d6? A crap-load of Cantrips, all of which are keyed off of your Intelligence? A whopping total of 14+ spells known of 1st and 2nd level spells, most of which can actually scale? Sign me up!

All in all, you'll feel every bit as a skilled spellcaster, along with being astounding combatant in both fair and unfair manners.

And all the other goodies you get from Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard.

Of course, you could also be something like one of these (with same sub-classes as above):

Fighter 12/Rogue 3/Wizard 2 (effectively 7th-level spellcaster with up to 2nd level spells known)
or
Fighter 3/Rogue 12/Wizard 2 (effectively 7th-level spellcaster with up to 2nd level spells known)
Fighter 6/Rogue 6/Wizard 8 (effectively 12th-level spellcaster with up to 4th level spells known)
or
Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 11 (effectively 14th-level spellcaster with up to 6th level spells known)
or
Fighter 3/Rogue 6/Wizard 11 (effectively 14th-level spellcaster with up to 6th level spells known)
or
Fighter 3/Rogue 3/Wizard 14 (effectively 16th-level spellcaster with up to 7th level spells known)

Regardless of what you do, I really recommend breaking EK and AT into 3-level bits, due to their partial (⅓) spellcasting.

(Personally, I'd suggest at the very least Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Wizard 2, as that's when the concept would come online, and would already count as a 5th level spellcaster with Extra Attack – and is surprisingly close in power to a single-classed Paladin or Ranger).

[Max_Killjoy]

Here how I would do it:

Forge Cleric. Just fluff the spells as technology, and explain the spell slots as the tech requiring some kind of magic fuel which your character brew during long rests.

What about turning undead? I don't see that really fitting.

I was thinking that could be swapped out to get the "channel divinity" effects from both Forge and Knowledge.

Might need to tweak the spell list a bit.

[Max_Killjoy]

Objectively speaking, though, this character IS the bystander in her own life. At least in the backstory.

She is from a certain clan. She has an important uncle. Uncle's apprentice pursue her romantically. Uncle's apprentice **** up and seriously wound her. Uncle fixes her (with some help from herself).

That backstory is all about how things happened to her, not about how she did anything (aside from rejecting the apprentice's advances, which is less doing something than refusing to do something).


Then my writing failed. It had to fit on a single page at the time I wrote it, and I didn't get the right angle.

I need to re-write it to capture more of her active involvement.

So thank you.

Would it make much different to your impression if:

1) She was wounded that badly because she actively saved someone else from the accident.

2) She left home and traveled on her own, without the eye or gauntlet, to a great artificer in a far-off city, to learn from them, and make the eye and gauntlet with their help.

[Unoriginal]

What about turning undead? I don't see that really fitting.

Anti-Necromantic Pulse device (or ANP). She ain't afraid of no ghost.

Do you know the video game Nioh, by any chance?



Would it make much different to your impression if:

1) She was wounded that badly because she actively saved someone else from the accident.

2) She left home and traveled on her own, without the eye or gauntlet, to a great artificer in a far-off city, to learn from them, and make the eye and gauntlet with their help.

Well, it'd give her *some* active agency, so it's better to convey what you want. But the most important event on her story so far is still is "random tragedy befall on her because other person's mistake".

Which is a totally legit story, don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure if it's what gives the result you want.

Now, I'm just suggesting, but imagine this:

SHE caused the accident. She made a mistake, and while no other person was hurt because she managed to contain it, she payed the price for it.

[Max_Killjoy]

Anti-Necromantic Pulse device (or ANP). She ain't afraid of no ghost.

Do you know the video game Nioh, by any chance?


I know of it, but not much in the way of details.




Well, it'd give her *some* active agency, so it's better to convey what you want. But the most important event on her story so far is still is "random tragedy befall on her because other person's mistake".

Which is a totally legit story, don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure if it's what gives the result you want.


The "most important" event of a lot of people's lives, in terms of tragedy or loss, is often caused by something outside their control and not of their own doing.

[Derpldorf]

Hi, I won't give any build advice for a character you clearly care a good deal about as I'm fairly certain I'm terrible at it. But I can offer a few small tidbits. Take or leave as desired.

The Eye: Your best bet is the Ersatz Eye, a common magic item listed on page 137 of Xanathar's Guide to everything. It requires attunement, but I think it works as you desire and DM willing can be upgraded as you wish.

Flexible Tactics: Three levels of Thief Rogue.

Rogue's Cunning Action lets you Disengage, Dash or Hide as a Bonus Action, amazing for maneuverability and positioning. Its Expertise lets you double your proficiency in Athletics, thereby enhancing all kinds of interesting tactical maneuvers like Pull, Push or Trip. The Fast Hands feature lets you Use an Object as a Bonus Action which is... basically any item that doesn't specifically call out an action. It is by far the best rogue feature at that level and probably one of the best Rogue features period. If your willing to combine it with the Tavern Brawler feat you get what is probably the closest thing to a Pathfinder Alchemist that is AL legal.

Tavern Brawler grants proficiency with Improvised Weapons. All Alchemist's whatever or contact poisons or sack of flour or... whatever are considered Improvised Throwing Weapons that key off Strength. The other features while perhaps not as relevant are still nice to have as options.

[Unoriginal]

I know of it, but not much in the way of details.

Nevermind, then. It's not important. I just thought the magic stones they used in that game could be a fun visual for your character's "spell fuel".



The "most important" event of a lot of people's lives, in terms of tragedy or loss, is caused by something outside their control and not of their own doing.

Sure, and as I said, it's legit. As long as you're happy with "and she got hurt in an accident caused by someone who's not important to her or her story", it's what matters.

A character in a text-based RP I liked a lot was a former athlete who got cyber-limbs after an accident and so couldn't compete in "standard" sport anymore. The character was great, but that part of the story put the emphasis on how the world's big, random, and doesn't care about anyone's circumstances.

[Max_Killjoy]

Hi, I won't give any build advice for a character you clearly care a good deal about as I'm fairly certain I'm terrible at it. But I can offer a few small tidbits. Take or leave as desired.

The Eye: Your best bet is the Ersatz Eye, a common magic item listed on page 137 of Xanathar's Guide to everything. It requires attunement, but I think it works as you desire and DM willing can be upgraded as you wish.

Flexible Tactics: Three levels of Thief Rogue.

Rogue's Cunning Action lets you Disengage, Dash or Hide as a Bonus Action, amazing for maneuverability and positioning. Its Expertise lets you double your proficiency in Athletics, thereby enhancing all kinds of interesting tactical maneuvers like Pull, Push or Trip. The Fast Hands feature lets you Use an Object as a Bonus Action which is... basically any item that doesn't specifically call out an action. It is by far the best rogue feature at that level and probably one of the best Rogue features period. If your willing to combine it with the Tavern Brawler feat you get what is probably the closest thing to a Pathfinder Alchemist that is AL legal.

Tavern Brawler grants proficiency with Improvised Weapons. All Alchemist's whatever or contact poisons or sack of flour or... whatever are considered Improvised Throwing Weapons that key off Strength. The other features while perhaps not as relevant are still nice to have as options.

Interesting... spent some time last night looking at 4 levels of that and 2 levels of re-skinned Cleric with Forge domain (and maybe the Turn Undead swapped out for Knowledge domain's Knowledge of the Ages to represent the sort of "jack of all trades" effect for her).

[Max_Killjoy]

Nevermind, then. It's not important. I just thought the magic stones they used in that game could be a fun visual for your character's "spell fuel".

I'll see if I can find an episode or two to watch.




Sure, and as I said, it's legit. As long as you're happy with "and she got hurt in an accident caused by someone who's not important to her or her story", it's what matters.

A character in a text-based RP I liked a lot was a former athlete who got cyber-limbs after an accident and so couldn't compete in "standard" sport anymore. The character was great, but that part of the story put the emphasis on how the world's big, random, and doesn't care about anyone's circumstances.


The rush to fit the backstory into one page didn't make it clear, but he's important in that he shows up later and tries to redeem himself by being her hero, and failing again. That's part of what I'm trying to correct in the re-re-re-write.


Part of what went into her story might be a little backlash against the female character who exists as motivational element for a male character, the whole "fridging" thing, which bugged by for years even before it became a recent topic of debate. Going way back, decades, I've been aggravated by how often even a supposedly tough, self-reliant character can become helpless when another character needs to "be the hero" to serve the narrative, and how that lilts so heavily towards making the female character the rescuee and the make character the rescuer.

[Nhorianscum]

Assuming your DM allows you to craft via xanthars rather than ruling artificer only...

The gauntlet is a shield. We can just treat it as a shield.

As for the eye, well, it's a refluffed version of the ebberon UA's mark of detection (This also shifts us to better ability scores for your concept). +1d4 to seeing stuff, ritual detect (stuff) greater mark gives see invis, and true seeing at xl8 1/day for a half feat. Sounds like what you're looking for.

As for the build itself, we're eyeballing theif or AT heavily alongside our requisite shield use dip and at least 4th level spells, ideally with fabricate on the list. Most of your concept is optimal play rather than optimal build. I'd probably recomend the following based on your criteria.

Knowledge1/AT 19 gives us what we need if you're willing to drop fabricate. 6 expertise, full sneak attack (boosted by cantrips of your DM is willing to allow skagtrips), 1/3 casting, simple progression.

Knowledge 2/Theruge (Forge) 18. A much more casty approach, take a level of rouge or prodigy for more expertise, make anything, cast anything, know anything, do anything. Artificer wizard is also usable. Simple progression.

As for back story. It's fine as is. Robocop didn't build himself, the 6 million dollar man didn't patch himself up, etc. She's still a trumped up commoner at level friggin 1, some help is fine. What matters is what she does between the rebuild and the rando guy showing back up, and that's what the campain is for.

[Porcupinata]

I'm surprised at all the people recommending spellcasting classes, since there's nothing in her backstory or description that mentions her ever using magic, merely having read about it.

Given her main emphasis on intelligence and skills, and her secondary emphasis is on fighting prowess, I'd suggest that she should be a Half-Elf Rogue (Inquisitive), with the Sage background to represent her book learning.

Since you're aiming for her being 6th level, she can take the Moderately Armoured feat at 4th level that lets her use shields and medium armour (and you may be able to persuade the DM that her prosthetic arm can be used as a shield).

As for the eye, that's clearly a magic item similar to Goggles of Night. If you're starting at 6th level then you can probably also persuade your DM that she could start play with such an item.

[Pelle]

I think I saw a video on youtube recently where a WotC representative mentioned an upcoming book for that technomagic setting, with an artificer class...

[Unoriginal]

I'm surprised at all the people recommending spellcasting classes, since there's nothing in her backstory or description that mentions her ever using magic, merely having read about it.


It's refluffing, because OP wants "Artificier" powers.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm surprised at all the people recommending spellcasting classes, since there's nothing in her backstory or description that mentions her ever using magic, merely having read about it.


As Unoriginal notes, the magic bits come in with the fact that she's an artificer herself.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think I saw a video on youtube recently where a WotC representative mentioned an upcoming book for that technomagic setting, with an artificer class...

That could be useful. Wish we had more info.

[rahimka]

Part of what went into her story might be a little backlash against the female character who exists as motivational element for a male character, the whole "fridging" thing, which bugged by for years even before it became a recent topic of debate. Going way back, decades, I've been aggravated by how often even a supposedly tough, self-reliant character can become helpless when another character needs to "be the hero" to serve the narrative, and how that lilts so heavily towards making the female character the rescuee and the make character the rescuer.


This got me thinking... artificer (possibly with some magic mixed in), horrible scarring accident caused by somebody who thinks they are the "hero", reversal of cliched roles... it's a heroic backstory for Dr-Freaking-Doom!

Try this: flip the backstory around, wannabe-hero guy was trying to impress her with a big flashy science/magic/artificing experiment, but she saw it was a disaster waiting to happen. She warns him but he ignores her until its too late and she has to intervene (to save him and her uncle and whatever other civilians are around) and ends up taking the brunt of the damage when it explodes and he sulks off to become a brooding "hero" looking to redeem himself.

She gets on with her life and goes on to craft her prosthetics and become an adventurer in her own right. When he shows up to try and be her hero again (still completely convinced he's the main character), the same dynamic you previously described goes down where she blows him off for being such a narcissist.

Just like Doom is obsessed with Richards, he's obsessed with her. Except that instead of casting her into the role of his foil, he can't get past seeing her as his tragic romantic interest. And just like Richards, she's a brilliant adventurer whose got better things to do with her life than waste it playing into his fantasies, but STILL has to deal with him continuing to pop up and harass her

[Max_Killjoy]

This got me thinking... artificer (possibly with some magic mixed in), horrible scarring accident caused by somebody who thinks they are the "hero", reversal of cliched roles... it's a heroic backstory for Dr-Freaking-Doom!

Try this: flip the backstory around, wannabe-hero guy was trying to impress her with a big flashy science/magic/artificing experiment, but she saw it was a disaster waiting to happen. She warns him but he ignores her until its too late and she has to intervene (to save him and her uncle and whatever other civilians are around) and ends up taking the brunt of the damage when it explodes and he sulks off to become a brooding "hero" looking to redeem himself.

She gets on with her life and goes on to craft her prosthetics and become an adventurer in her own right. When he shows up to try and be her hero again (still completely convinced he's the main character), the same dynamic you previously described goes down where she blows him off for being such a narcissist.

Just like Doom is obsessed with Richards, he's obsessed with her. Except that instead of casting her into the role of his foil, he can't get past seeing her as his tragic romantic interest. And just like Richards, she's a brilliant adventurer whose got better things to do with her life than waste it playing into his fantasies, but STILL has to deal with him continuing to pop up and harass her

I like that added ooomph, a lot, and it fits nicely into how I edited the backstory.


Kazi Kazuri was born into Clan Luminkos of the great north (known to outsiders as snow elves). From an early age, she spent a great deal of time reading in the study of her uncle, Sakari Gallen, a respected vehlo (sage and wizard). Of all the books she read, those detailing the workings of intricate devices, or the deeds of clever heroes, were her favorites. The other children viewed her as a bit odd, with her bookish, tinkering manner; and the whispers of a human grandfather on one side didn't help. For Kazi, it just mean fewer distractions from study and practice.

Eventually, a boy from a neighboring town came to study with her uncle. Ilmari Korhonen had a gift for alchemy, and a bit too much confidence in his own talents, and was a bit too caught up in the romantic side of old stories. And he took more than a bit of a liking to Kazi. But, try as he might, he couldn't get more than a sort of obligatory friendliness out of her. Sakari scolded Ilmari – he was there to study and work, not chase the vehlo’s niece.

Finally, in an effort to impress Kazi, Ilmari tried to make a miniature alchemical apparatus; but in the rush to show it to her, something went horribly wrong. Kazi saved Sakari and Ilmari’s lives, but the explosion of flaming reagents, glass, and magic left Ilmari burned, bruised and cut... and nearly wrecked Kazi. Ilmari snuck out of town still bandaged and aching, unable to face what he had done.

Her uncle and the town healer were able to patch her wounds, and her own raw refusal to die or quit kept her going, but Kazi's left eye was ruined, her face scarred, and her left arm all but lame from the elbow down, weak and painful to use. She went back to her books, and letters, and hatched a plan. One of Sakari’s network of friends and colleagues, who had visited once, was a great artificer and smith, and Kazi was determined to seek his help. In the dead of a winter night, she set out on her own to the great city of the south where the artificer lived. The road was long, and the obstacles many, but she would not turn back.

Months later, the artificer was stunned to find the grown, hardened, and obviously hurting niece of his old friend knocking on his door; sword at her side. She showed him her notebooks, full of references and sketches and ideas, and he was inspired. He made an eye for Kazi, better than the one she had lost. He made armor for her ruined arm, not just to protect it, but to make it work again, as strong as an orc and as impervious as granite. And all the while she was learning the secrets of his craft.

Eventually, she set out into the world, to see its wonders and tragedies, to find her own way, and maybe become the sort of clever hero she'd read about in her books. She found comrades, and lost some of them, along the way.

Years later, Ilmari showed up in her life again, something of a penitent adventurer, still seeing the world through the lens of those old romantic tales, determined to "make it up to her". She had no interest in his help, and told him in no uncertain terms that she was the hero of her own story, not a character in his.


I think I'm going to integrate your suggestion into the part detailed in third paragraph.

Thank you.

[Max_Killjoy]

In terms of adapting an extant Class to fit the character, someone suggested a Bard, re-skinned.

So... some Bard thoughts / questions.

* Could change the primary stat from CHA to INT or WIS.
* Somehow need to get Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency, might still need 1 level of a "heavy" Class.
* Trade the three Musical Instrument proficiencies out for three other Tool proficiencies.
* Swap out some of the Equipment to fit.
* Change spellcasting focus to something besides an instrument.
* Bardic Inspiration could be changed to "Determination"
* Does the Jack of All Trades bonus apply to Saves? If so, that might be what I need for her to be broadly good at Saves, along with the Skills.
* Song of Rest needs replacement or serious rework.
* Expertise fits quite well.
* Countercharm... this needs straight replacement, probably... extra attack?
* Magic secrets... fits well.

* College of Lore...
* Bonus Skills, perfect
* Cutting Words... eh, probably not, but what? Arcane Deflection from the War Mage? Fast Hands from the Thief?
* Additional Magic Secrets... works.
* Peerless Skill... works.

* Still need to figure out how to integrate the actual Artiface into the character's abilities.

[Unoriginal]

I wouldn't say Doctor Doom is obsessed with Reed Richards, as a foil or others. He's obsessed with beating Richards/proving he was right at the time of the accident, but he basically has no interest in the man beside that and Doom is quite happy doing other things. Once he saves Richards's wife and unborn daughter, proving in his mind he's better than Richards, Doom stops having any interest in the man.




Kazi Kazuri was born into Clan Luminkos of the great north (known to outsiders as snow elves). From an early age, she spent a great deal of time reading in the study of her uncle, Sakari Gallen, a respected vehlo (sage and wizard). Of all the books she read, those detailing the workings of intricate devices, or the deeds of clever heroes, were her favorites. The other children viewed her as a bit odd, with her bookish, tinkering manner; and the whispers of a human grandfather on one side didn't help. For Kazi, it just mean fewer distractions from study and practice.

Eventually, a boy from a neighboring town came to study with her uncle. Ilmari Korhonen had a gift for alchemy, and a bit too much confidence in his own talents, and was a bit too caught up in the romantic side of old stories. And he took more than a bit of a liking to Kazi. But, try as he might, he couldn't get more than a sort of obligatory friendliness out of her. Sakari scolded Ilmari – he was there to study and work, not chase the vehlo’s niece.

Finally, in an effort to impress Kazi, Ilmari tried to make a miniature alchemical apparatus; but in the rush to show it to her, something went horribly wrong. Kazi saved Sakari and Ilmari’s lives, but the explosion of flaming reagents, glass, and magic left Ilmari burned, bruised and cut... and nearly wrecked Kazi. Ilmari snuck out of town still bandaged and aching, unable to face what he had done.

Her uncle and the town healer were able to patch her wounds, and her own raw refusal to die or quit kept her going, but Kazi's left eye was ruined, her face scarred, and her left arm all but lame from the elbow down, weak and painful to use. She went back to her books, and letters, and hatched a plan. One of Sakari’s network of friends and colleagues, who had visited once, was a great artificer and smith, and Kazi was determined to seek his help. In the dead of a winter night, she set out on her own to the great city of the south where the artificer lived. The road was long, and the obstacles many, but she would not turn back.

Months later, the artificer was stunned to find the grown, hardened, and obviously hurting niece of his old friend knocking on his door; sword at her side. She showed him her notebooks, full of references and sketches and ideas, and he was inspired. He made an eye for Kazi, better than the one she had lost. He made armor for her ruined arm, not just to protect it, but to make it work again, as strong as an orc and as impervious as granite. And all the while she was learning the secrets of his craft.

Eventually, she set out into the world, to see its wonders and tragedies, to find her own way, and maybe become the sort of clever hero she'd read about in her books. She found comrades, and lost some of them, along the way.

Years later, Ilmari showed up in her life again, something of a penitent adventurer, still seeing the world through the lens of those old romantic tales, determined to "make it up to her". She had no interest in his help, and told him in no uncertain terms that she was the hero of her own story, not a character in his.
.

I'd say if it would be more impactful if she showed to the artificier with a working mechanical arm, or at least a working prototype of it, as a "take me as an apprentice" project.

The eye being outside of the realm of her capacities is more than fine, but it'd cement her as the artificier if she made her own robo-arm on the way.

Maybe her prototype could move and protect but only had a sword at the end rather than a fully articulated hand?

[Max_Killjoy]

I wouldn't say Doctor Doom is obsessed with Reed Richards, as a foil or others. He's obsessed with beating Richards/proving he was right at the time of the accident, but he basically has no interest in the man beside that and Doom is quite happy doing other things. Once he saves Richards's wife and unborn daughter, proving in his mind he's better than Richards, Doom stops having any interest in the man.



I'd say if it would be more impactful if she showed to the artificier with a working mechanical arm, or at least a working prototype of it, as a "take me as an apprentice" project.

The eye being outside of the realm of her capacities is more than fine, but it'd cement her as the artificier if she made her own robo-arm on the way.

Maybe her prototype could move and protect but only had a sword at the end rather than a fully articulated hand?

As a note, it's armor from the elbow down that restores her arm and hand function, not a literal mechanical arm -- if she takes it off, there's still her arm and hand, barely usable.

[Unoriginal]

As a note, it's armor from the elbow down that restores her arm and hand function, not a literal mechanical arm -- if she takes it off, there's still her arm and hand, barely usable.

I got that, but the point stand.

[JBPuffin]

In terms of adapting an extant Class to fit the character, someone suggested a Bard, re-skinned.

So... some Bard thoughts / questions.

* Could change the primary stat from CHA to INT or WIS.
* Somehow need to get Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency, might still need 1 level of a "heavy" Class.
* Trade the three Musical Instrument proficiencies out for three other Tool proficiencies.
* Swap out some of the Equipment to fit.
* Change spellcasting focus to something besides an instrument.
* Bardic Inspiration could be changed to "Determination"
* Does the Jack of All Trades bonus apply to Saves? If so, that might be what I need for her to be broadly good at Saves, along with the Skills.
* Song of Rest needs replacement or serious rework.
* Expertise fits quite well.
* Countercharm... this needs straight replacement, probably... extra attack?
* Magic secrets... fits well.

* College of Lore...
* Bonus Skills, perfect
* Cutting Words... eh, probably not, but what? Arcane Deflection from the War Mage? Fast Hands from the Thief?
* Additional Magic Secrets... works.
* Peerless Skill... works.

* Still need to figure out how to integrate the actual Artiface into the character's abilities.

* Intelligence is probably the most underused stat in the game, as all it does for most characters is knowledge checks the party wizard/bard/cleric/whoever can probably do anyway, so this is more than balanced from a mechanical standpoint. Wisdom is less balanced, but if you're not going to multiclass since you're building the character top-down rather than bottom-up, it's probably fine.
* Would you be willing to lose a skill proficiency for it? That'd be what I ask as a DM for this character, probably the most DM-dependent question. Also, is the Medium Armor so you can skimp on Dex after a certain point, or a stylistic choice? Might be better off using light and relying on a good Dex score to keep your AC up.
* Seems fine
* Probably a given.
* Spell focus or component pouch, as per the other spellcasters. Note: spell foci can be damn near anything magikumal, so you can get creative with the fluff on them.
* Simple refluff, something 90% of DMs won't have any problem with.
* Saving throws aren't ability checks, but I'm pretty sure initiative is just a Dex ability check...could be wrong on the second bit, know the first bit for sure.
* Unarmored Defense (Intelligence) to replace Song of Rest, can use with a shield, opens up wearing whatever the hell you want?
* Seems alright to trade Countercharm for Extra Attack. Same level you'd get it as a more offensive Bard.
* Either AD or FH would work at my table. Would also suggest the War Wizard "Add Int mod to initiative checks" feature in this spot, since this is the kind of character who seems like they should be going first a lot.

Spoilered for others' ease of thread reading, not for secrecy or whatnot. As for my own player experience, I played a Variant Human Arcane Trickster (AT 4/Wizard 1 by the end) for a while, and that was fun. Cunning Action is a great ability, sneak attacking is so easy to set up, and making Mage Hand an even more useful utility spell is a lot of fun. I'd start with War Wizard 2, go Arcane Trickster for as long as you want (several good break-off points, but also a lot of reasons to stick around), then go back to War Wizard. Cunning Action Disengage+Shield spell or Arcane Deflection (depending on your needs at the time) is really hard to hit in melee, and Shield in general is so beautiful on something so slippery as a Rogue. Medium armor makes the Dex stuff a little less attractive, admittedly, since it restricts your AC growth, but for your build that probably isn't an issue.

As far as refluffing goes, I look at the stats as just that - stats. How the character actually looks from an in-the-setting perspective is a lot more flexible than other DMs might allow; if my players wanted, we could play Sci-Fantasy using DnD 5e rules and refluff literally everything and it still be alright with me. Probably won't have equal luck with every DM, of course, but DMs raised during the 4e/5e days tend to be a lot more flexible on fluff concerns than some earlier editions (could say the trend started in 3.5 and culminated here, but I digress). Hope you can create something that matches your character the way you want, have a few myself I've considered jury-rigging together but haven't wanted to actually sit down and stat up when I have other hobbies to attend to.

[Max_Killjoy]

* Intelligence is probably the most underused stat in the game, as all it does for most characters is knowledge checks the party wizard/bard/cleric/whoever can probably do anyway, so this is more than balanced from a mechanical standpoint. Wisdom is less balanced, but if you're not going to multiclass since you're building the character top-down rather than bottom-up, it's probably fine.
* Would you be willing to lose a skill proficiency for it? That'd be what I ask as a DM for this character, probably the most DM-dependent question. Also, is the Medium Armor so you can skimp on Dex after a certain point, or a stylistic choice? Might be better off using light and relying on a good Dex score to keep your AC up.
* Seems fine
* Probably a given.
* Spell focus or component pouch, as per the other spellcasters. Note: spell foci can be damn near anything magikumal, so you can get creative with the fluff on them.
* Simple refluff, something 90% of DMs won't have any problem with.
* Saving throws aren't ability checks, but I'm pretty sure initiative is just a Dex ability check...could be wrong on the second bit, know the first bit for sure.
* Unarmored Defense (Intelligence) to replace Song of Rest, can use with a shield, opens up wearing whatever the hell you want?
* Seems alright to trade Countercharm for Extra Attack. Same level you'd get it as a more offensive Bard.
* Either AD or FH would work at my table. Would also suggest the War Wizard "Add Int mod to initiative checks" feature in this spot, since this is the kind of character who seems like they should be going first a lot.

Spoilered for others' ease of thread reading, not for secrecy or whatnot. As for my own player experience, I played a Variant Human Arcane Trickster (AT 4/Wizard 1 by the end) for a while, and that was fun. Cunning Action is a great ability, sneak attacking is so easy to set up, and making Mage Hand an even more useful utility spell is a lot of fun. I'd start with War Wizard 2, go Arcane Trickster for as long as you want (several good break-off points, but also a lot of reasons to stick around), then go back to War Wizard. Cunning Action Disengage+Shield spell or Arcane Deflection (depending on your needs at the time) is really hard to hit in melee, and Shield in general is so beautiful on something so slippery as a Rogue. Medium armor makes the Dex stuff a little less attractive, admittedly, since it restricts your AC growth, but for your build that probably isn't an issue.

As far as refluffing goes, I look at the stats as just that - stats. How the character actually looks from an in-the-setting perspective is a lot more flexible than other DMs might allow; if my players wanted, we could play Sci-Fantasy using DnD 5e rules and refluff literally everything and it still be alright with me. Probably won't have equal luck with every DM, of course, but DMs raised during the 4e/5e days tend to be a lot more flexible on fluff concerns than some earlier editions (could say the trend started in 3.5 and culminated here, but I digress). Hope you can create something that matches your character the way you want, have a few myself I've considered jury-rigging together but haven't wanted to actually sit down and stat up when I have other hobbies to attend to.

On the medium armor and shield question, it's more stylistic than optimization -- she's supposed to be wearing the chain shirt, and the left arm/hand armor is strong and resilient enough that she uses as a shield as well. After more reading last night, given the survival abilities and proficiencies granted by Ranger 1, I'm quite tempted to "dip" that single level there, and choose "forest", it would be very fitting.

Cunning Action was another tempting swapout that was on my mind last night.

On stats and what they mean... I come from a quote "sim" (as in, the setting and characters are the real territory, the rules are a map/model of that territory) gaming background, so to me, it's hard to shake a core idea that a smart character should have a high INT, because that's what models being smart.

[Max_Killjoy]

I got that, but the point stand.

Cool, I just wanted to make sure it was clear for anyone else reading.

I'll definitely think about that suggestion.

[Laolir]

I would personally go Thief 4, War wizard 2.

Your main stats are DEX and INT.
You can take moderately armored with your first ASI so you can have a shield and chain shirt.

Thief give you expertise, fast hand so you can always have a trick up your sleeve, a climb speed for the explorer part, and you will be able to fight with a short sword.

War Wizard give you INT on iniative, ritual casting of some spell for your eyes (detect magic/identify), and a bonus to save using your reaction so you can be shrewd and hardened.
You can fluff your wizard spell as gadget/invention, and lvl up what you want from this point: Wizard for more gadget, and better save if you hit lvl 10, rogue to be better at fighting, get more expertise and some nice defensive ability.

[Max_Killjoy]

Something else from my reading last night -- going through the expanded tool and crafting rules in XGTE, I was thinking that maybe the "artificer" part doesn't have to be directly reflected in combat. With the right build, with enough Skills and Tool Proficiencies, there's a ton of out-of-combat potential, while focusing the combat side more on other things.

Just thinking out loud at this point.

[Max_Killjoy]

I would personally go Thief 4, War wizard 2.

Your main stats are DEX and INT.
You can take moderately armored with your first ASI so you can have a shield and chain shirt.

Thief give you expertise, fast hand so you can always have a trick up your sleeve, a climb speed for the explorer part, and you will be able to fight with a short sword.

War Wizard give you INT on iniative, ritual casting of some spell for your eyes (detect magic/identify), and a bonus to save using your reaction so you can be shrewd and hardened.
You can fluff your wizard spell as gadget/invention, and lvl up what you want from this point: Wizard for more gadget, and better save if you hit lvl 10, rogue to be better at fighting, get more expertise and some nice defensive ability.

That is also not a bad suggestion.

Man, this gets harder the more suggestions I get... :smallwink:

[Max_Killjoy]

Since I started the discussion here, might as well continue it.

In the spoiler is a heavily adapted Lore Bard, with some abilities swapped out. Anywhere it looks like they're getting a lot at once, that's entirely how Bard with College of Lore works out. Trades the ability to buff others for a bit more in the way of armor and weapons prof, and a few other things.



Determinator

Never give in, never give up, never let go... far beyond driven.


Hit Points

Hit Dice: 1d8 per level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + Constitution modifier per level after 1st


Starting Proficiencies

Proficient with the following items, in addition to any proficiencies provided by race or background.

Armor: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shield
Weapons: Simple Weapons, Martial Weapons
Tools: any three of choice
Saving Throws: Wisdom, Intelligence
Skills: Survival, plus any two of choice


Starting Equipment

* (a) any Martial Weapon and Shield, or (b) any two Martial Weapons
* (a) Light or Hand Crossbow w/20 Bolts, or (b) Shortbow or Longbow w/20 Arrows
* Any medium or light armor
* One Tool Kit of choice
* (a) Explorer’s Pack, or (b) Dungeoneer’s Pack




Table: Determinator



Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots per Spell Level



1st
+2
Spellcasting, Determination (d6)
2
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



2nd
+2
Jack of All Trades, Cunning Action
2
5
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



3rd
+2
Bonus Proficiency (3 Skills), No-Sell, One Step Ahead
2
6
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
3
7
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



5th
+3
Determination (d8), Hardened Determination
3
8
4
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-



6th
+3
Extra Attack, Magic Secrets
3
9
4
3
3
-
-
-
-
-
-



7th
+3
-
3
10
4
3
3
1
-
-
-
-
-



8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
3
11
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-
-



9th
+4
-
3
12
4
3
3
3
1
-
-
-
-



10th
+4
Determination (d10), Magical Secrets
4
14
4
3
3
3
2
-
-
-
-



11th
+4
-
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
1
-
-
-



12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
1
-
-
-



13th
+5
-
4
16
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
-
-



14th
+5
Magical Secrets, No Rest For the Weary
4
18
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
-
-



15th
+5
Determination (d12)
4
19
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
-



16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
4
19
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
-



17th
+6
-
4
20
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1



18th
+6
Magical Secrets
4
22
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
1



19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement
4
22
4
3
3
3
3
2
1
1
1



20th
+6
Superior Determination
4
22
4
3
3
3
3
2
2
1
1





Determination

Through raw determination and will, the character can overcome obstacles and setbacks that leave others stymied. Once per turn, they can use a Determination Die, starting with a d6 at level 1. This die can be added to any one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw the character makes. They can wait until after rolling the d20, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails.

They can use this feature a number of times equal to their Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once), and regain the expended uses at the end of a Long Rest.

The Determination Die changes with level progression, becoming a d8 at 5th, a d10 at 10th, and a d12 at 15th.


Spellcasting

The character has learned to shape magic by force of will and sharpness of mind.

Cantrips

The character knows two Cantrips of their choice from the Determinator spell list. They learn additional Cantrips at higher levels as shown on the Determinator table.

Spells Known

The character knows four 1st level Spells of their choice from the Determinator spell list. They learn additional Spells at higher levels as shown on the Determinator table. Each new Spell learned must be of a level for which they have Spell Slots. For instance, when they reach 3rd level, they can learn one new spell of either 1st or 2nd level.

Additionally, when they gain a level in this Class, they can replace one known Spell with a different Spell from the Determinator spell list – this new Spell must be of a level for which they have Spell Slots.

Spell Slots

The Determinator table shows how many Spell Slots the character has to cast their Spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these Spells, they must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. They regain all expended Spell Slots when they finish a Long Rest.

For example, if you know the 1st-level spell Cure Wounds and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast Cure Wounds using either slot.

Spellcasting Ability

Wisdom is the Spellcasting ability for Deteminator Spells. Their magic comes from raw determination and indomitable spirit -- it is by will alone that their Spells are set in motion. Wisdom is used whenever a spell refers to Spellcasting ability. In addition, the Wisdom modifier is when Setting the saving throw DC for a Deteminator spell is cast and when Making an Attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
Spell Attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier

Ritual Casting

The character can cast any bard spell you know as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag.

Spellcasting Focus

The Determinator can use their melee weapon as an arcane focus. Alternatively, they can use a memento, keepsake, holy symbol, or other item as an arcane focus, so long as they consider it personal and emotionally significant. For example, a necklace with the last coin their father gave them before he died, or the book their child used to read with them before being taken by orc slavers.


Jack of All Trades

The Determinator never knows what they'll need to overcome next. Starting at 2nd level, the character can add half their proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check they make that doesn't already include their proficiency bonus.


Cunning Action

Starting at 2nd level, the Determinator's quick thinking allows them to move and act quickly. They can take a Bonus Action on each of their turns in Combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action.


Bonus Proficiencies

At 3rd level, the Determinator gains proficiency with three additional Skills of their choice.


No-Sell

At 3rd level, the Determinator's stubborn defiance begins to subtly weave magic to fortify them against harm. When they are hit by an attack or they fail a saving throw, they can use a Reaction to gain a +2 bonus to their AC against that attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw. When they use this feature, they can’t cast spells other than cantrips until the end of their next turn.


One Step Ahead

Starting at 3rd level, the Determinator's keen ability to assess threatening situations allows them to act quickly in battle. They gain a bonus to Initiative equal to their Intelligence modifier.


Ability Score Improvement

Upon reaching 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, the Determinator can increase one ability score of choice by 2, or two Ability Scores of choice by 1. If Feats are being used, they can instead use the ASI to acquire a Feat.


Hardened Determination

Beginning at 5th level, the Determinator regains all of expended uses of Determination when they finish a Short or Long Rest.


Extra Attack

Beginning at 5th level, when the Determinator takes an Attack action on their turn, they can attack twice instead of once.


Magical Secrets

By 6th level, the Determinator has traded, bought, or stolen magical knowledge from a wide variety of sources. Choose two Spells from any Class, including this one. Each Spell must be of a Level the Determinator can cast, as shown on the table, or a cantrip.

The chosen Spells count as Determinator Spells for the character, and do not count against the number of Determinator Spells known.

One additional Spell is also acquired in this manner at 10th, 14th, and 18th levels.


No Rest For The Weary

At 14th level, the Determinator recovers 9 levels worth of Spell Slots with a Short Rest. For example, they could recover one 9th level slot, one 4th level slot and one 5th level slot, or a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level slot. The regained slots for any spell level may not exceed the character's normal number of slots for that spell level.


Superior Determination

At 20th level, when the Determinator rolls initiative and has no used of Determination left, they regain one use.






I'd even consider reducing the total magic slots capacity of this if some tweaking is needed.

[Max_Killjoy]

Just crickets... not even one "this is bad and you should feel bad".

[strangebloke]

Just crickets... not even one "this is bad and you should feel bad".

I mean, great formatting and writeup, but depending on what's on the spell list, I'd say that this is rather overpowered.

Pros to Lore Bard:
Expertise
Bardic Inspiration can be applied to more.
Song of Rest
Peerless skill
Countercharm

Pros to Determinator
Medium Armor
Extra Attack
Cunning Action
No-Sell(repeatable use! Gives +4 to saves!)
Determination does not require a reaction to use (stacks with no-sell)
No Rest (Broken overpowered. allows them to refresh a wish every time they take a short rest. That's every hour)

Overall, at the loss of boosted skills, the Determinator gains a huge amount of survivability, martial weapons, ultra-efficient at-will action economy, and that's before you break the game at 17th level.

[Max_Killjoy]

I mean, great formatting and writeup, but depending on what's on the spell list, I'd say that this is rather overpowered.

Pros to Lore Bard:
Expertise
Bardic Inspiration can be applied to more.
Song of Rest
Peerless skill
Countercharm

Pros to Determinator
Medium Armor
Extra Attack
Cunning Action
No-Sell(repeatable use! Gives +4 to saves!)
Determination does not require a reaction to use (stacks with no-sell)
No Rest (Broken overpowered. allows them to refresh a wish every time they take a short rest. That's every hour)

Overall, at the loss of boosted skills, the Determinator gains a huge amount of survivability, martial weapons, ultra-efficient at-will action economy, and that's before you break the game at 17th level.


Thank you -- this is a rough-rough draft, and feedback is very much appreciated.


* No-Sell is literally Arcane Deflection from the War Magic school (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wizard:war-magic) (Wizard), only War Mage gets it at level 2. The wording comes from that -- if there's a bad loophole in the ability, it comes from WotC. :smallsmile: Would be fine with tweaking it.

* Determination is Bardic Inspiration but for the character instead of others... I can make it a reaction or a bonus action, that no reference to such is in the text here might even just be because it was accidentally lost in the copy-paste-edit. Or something.

* There is no way that Wish makes the spell list for this, and I've considered scaling back the higher-level Slots or eliminating them completely, but first I need to look at the Spell List in detail and see what's where.

* No Rest for the Weary was me trying to come up with SOMETHING to replace Peerless Skill, because Peerless Skill pretty much lets the Bard do what Determination already does, use Bardic Inspiration on herself. I am completely open to finding something else to go in that spot, or nothing at all if it comes to that.

[Vorpalchicken]

Nothing in the opening description suggests that she is a spellcaster. If she is gaining spellcasting through willpower alone, that sounds more like a sorcerer but I would think it would be more like a one third caster or more likely the magic initiate feat.
Also the self buff is a big upgrade over inspiration since you can readily call on it when needed rather than assessing who will need inspiration. Inspiration is quite powerful but it is tempered by the fact that it buffs others and not yourself. Actually I think other players could even be resentful of this feature.
Giving the war wizard defensive ability to a bard seems can bit strong too.
Really when you assemble a class by cherry picking abilities from other classes you are usually going to get something that is too strong.

She really sounds more like a Fighter or a rogue. You could take battle master for the superiority (precision) dice or use the rogue's expertise and reliable talent to simulate the determination.
Maybe the monster Hunter fighter (not ranger) UA could work?

TLDR- definitely doesn't sound like a full caster, self inspiration is selfish and too strong, taking the strongest abilities from other classes won't sell this.

[Max_Killjoy]

Nothing in the opening description suggests that she is a spellcaster. If she is gaining spellcasting through willpower alone, that sounds more like a sorcerer but I would think it would be more like a one third caster or more likely the magic initiate feat.
Also the self buff is a big upgrade over inspiration since you can readily call on it when needed rather than assessing who will need inspiration. Inspiration is quite powerful but it is tempered by the fact that it buffs others and not yourself. Actually I think other players could even be resentful of this feature.
Giving the war wizard defensive ability to a bard seems can bit strong too.
Really when you assemble a class by cherry picking abilities from other classes you are usually going to get something that is too strong.

She really sounds more like a Fighter or a rogue. You could take battle master for the superiority (precision) dice or use the rogue's expertise and reliable talent to simulate the determination.
Maybe the monster Hunter fighter (not ranger) UA could work?

TLDR- definitely doesn't sound like a full caster, self inspiration is selfish and too strong, taking the strongest abilities from other classes won't sell this.


On the spellcasting, being able to create magic items seems to imply some spellcasting ability, at least to me, but I wasn't outright explicit in that I guess.

I do plan to tone down the spellcasting, and probably cut it off before the full 9 spell levels on the next pass -- I have to see what's where, but from past experience I don't recall any 9th level spells needed for this idea.

In part, I'm off on a tangent here with the Determinator and didn't want to start a new thread just for that.


For this particular character, I'm still considering the Thief 4 / War Magic 2 idea that was suggested... along with several others... there have been a lot of different good ideas put forth in the thread.

[strangebloke]

Thank you -- this is a rough-rough draft, and feedback is very much appreciated.


* No-Sell is literally Arcane Deflection from the War Magic school (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wizard:war-magic) (Wizard), only War Mage gets it at level 2. The wording comes from that -- if there's a bad loophole in the ability, it comes from WotC. :smallsmile: Would be fine with tweaking it.

* Determination is Bardic Inspiration but for the character instead of others... I can make it a reaction or a bonus action, that no reference to such is in the text here might even just be because it was accidentally lost in the copy-paste-edit. Or something.

* There is no way that Wish makes the spell list for this, and I've considered scaling back the higher-level Slots or eliminating them completely, but first I need to look at the Spell List in detail and see what's where.

* No Rest for the Weary was me trying to come up with SOMETHING to replace Peerless Skill, because Peerless Skill pretty much lets the Bard do what Determination already does, use Bardic Inspiration on herself. I am completely open to finding something else to go in that spot, or nothing at all if it comes to that.

No-Sell is fine for war wizards because their best non-spell action is an attack cantrip. Chica here can throw down with 2-3 GWM attacks. (Perhaps rework as: "When you fail a save, you can choose to avoid being by the consequences of failing the save (other than damage) until the end of your next turn. Once you have used this ability you cannot use it again until after you finish a short or long rest." This is still a lot stronger than Song of Rest, but its within normal parameters.)

Determination as a reaction is probably fine, although in the current form it would conflict with No-sell and be awkward. I would recommend reworking No-Sell entirely to not be a reaction.

Even without Wish there are a lot of goofy things that 1 9th level spell per short rest does, and its crazy overpower even before then. I mean the poor warlock gets 15 spell levels back per short rest and you have half that, and you can store up to double what he can.

[Max_Killjoy]

An aside on attacks -- where would the character get a third attack?

And I guess I wasn't thinking of things like GWM.

[strangebloke]

An aside on attacks -- where would the character get a third attack?

And I guess I wasn't thinking of things like GWM.

You still aren't. :P

GWM grants a bonus action attack pretty frequently.

Alternately, this character could grab Swift Quiver as their tenth level secret and get four -5/+10 attacks, while still having that reaction available.

[Max_Killjoy]

You still aren't. :P

GWM grants a bonus action attack pretty frequently.

Alternately, this character could grab Swift Quiver as their tenth level secret and get four -5/+10 attacks, while still having that reaction available.

D&D has so much overlap/synergy. :smalleek:

But then when I simply want a character that's Skills heavy, runs on determination and will and wit, and has just enough magic to be a competent artificer... that's a hard ask.

[Max_Killjoy]

Meh, for the character in this thread, I'm likely to go with Rogue (Thief) 4 / Wizard (War Magic) 2, and burn the first ASI on Moderately Armored.
* Can't use Bard, based on Charisma and inspiration of others, doesn't fit the character at all other than the Skill-heavy aspect
* Can't use Fighter, paucity of Skills and Proficiencies

And keep working on the other thing as a side project.

[Max_Killjoy]

So what if the "no sell" (which is just a placeholder name I find funny for now) was made into the Saves version of Jack of All Trades -- half proficiency in any Save they don't have full proficiency in?

[rahimka]

So what if the "no sell" (which is just a placeholder name I find funny for now) was made into the Saves version of Jack of All Trades -- half proficiency in any Save they don't have full proficiency in?

I like that flavor better than just lifting one of the most potent abilities in the game straight from War Mage. And if it still came with the same restrictions as it did before (reaction to use, limited to no more than a cantrip), I think that would be more reasonable in terms of balance, though still VERY powerful (it's still a bonus on almost ANY save you need to make, which I'm with you as very thematic for a Determinator).

You could also consider a similar ability, but the bonus is instead based on their Intelligence mod (are you clever enough to find an advantage when the sh*t hits the fan?) and/or limited to a number of times per day equal to the Wisdom mod (how much willpower have you got?). Either or both would be more balanced imo and still in keeping with my understanding of the concept you are going for here.

---

Two other things pop out as problematic in the described progression (at least if you were my player coming to me for permission to run this homebrew class):

Determination as self-inspiration is essentially a 14th level class feature of the Lore Bard at 1st Lvl. That's too much. Especially when you hit 5th and get to replenish all uses on a short-rest. I'm not sure how you "fix" this in a thematic Determinator way. Maybe it costs a reaction or bonus action (depending on when it used), so it's an action-economy trade-off. Maybe you don't get the 5th level short-rest recovery upgrade.

No Rest for the Weary is too powerful. I can see how the recovery of spell slots is, again, very thematic for the character concept you've described, but as described it's too much too often. Limit it to the way Wizards and Circle of Land Druids can do this ONCE PER DAY and it's far more reasonable and balanced.

---
Other thoughts and suggestions on continuing to revise this as a Homebrew class:

Song of Rest: if you keep Bard as the "base", consider keeping this feature but applying it only to the character. It's a more "selfish" and less team focused ability, but it's in line with the Determinator as somebody who uses their resolve to steal themselves against the challenges ahead (the mental toughness aspect of Hit Points)

Casting: 1/3 or 1/2 Casting feels more appropriate to me. Still definitely a magic user, but somebody who has just enough magic to ENHANCE their numerous other abilities and skills.

Spell list: Regardless of the casting progression, you could spare yourself a major headache of writing a full spell list from scratch and take the approach that is used for the EldrtichKnight or ArcaneTrickster - they can pick spells from two schools from the Wizard/Artificer spell list with only a few chances over the whole progression to grab from another school too. As for the schools, Abjuration and Divination seem appropriate, or maybe you could make that a CHOICE that each Determinator decides for themselves.

Balance issues: This is a pretty potent kit you are putting together, for the sake of balance there really have to trade-offs or it's going to be more than a little OP. You noted that it's weighted in the same progression as the Lore Bard, and yeah, that class has powerful tools and abilities, but they are very SUPPORT oriented, where as the class as you are altering it is very SELF focused. It's easier to maintain balance (and cohesion) at the table with a powerful player focused on supporting the rest of the party than with a powerful player who can do everything themselves. Consider that Jack-of-All trades and self-inspiring is a recipe for a spotlight hog in any/every skill based challenge and it's COMBINED with a character who has medium armor + martial weapons + full spell caster progression during combat challenges. Where is this class's weakness or gaps in ability? Where is the space for other classes (and their players) to shine ALONGSIDE it?

Maybe this class needs to be a bit MAD to offset how powerful and useful it's toolkit is. Try splitting up more abilities and bonuses between Wisdom AND Intelligence, like having Spell Casting based on Intelligence (the Wits) but Determination based on Wisdom (the Will). I think that kind of thing might leave it feeling more like a real Jack-of-All-Trades (it CAN do a bit of everything, but it's hard for it to be the BEST at any of it) rather than the MASTER-of-All vibe the first draft has going.

[Max_Killjoy]

That's good feedback, and like I said, the first one was just "take the bard and tweak away the social aspect" as a rough draft.

[Max_Killjoy]

(Think I'm still safe from charges of necromancy and black magic...)

For the 6 levels on the character that this thread was started for, I ended up going with:

Half Elf
Sage Background
3 Rogue (Thief)
2 Wizard (WarMagic)
1 Revised Ranger


This let me pile on the skills and languages, get the WarMagic trick with Saves, combine the Tactical Wit bonus to Initiative with the R-Ranger's Advantage on Initiative, plus Cunning Action and Fast Hands, plus Second Story work combined with the R-Ranger's ability to ignore difficult terrain, and the medium armor and shield I wanted.

Maybe it's not an optimized build, but it's certain a character-fitting build, and it makes for someone who is very skilled and knowledgeable, has a lot of mobility and sneakiness in combat, access to magic, and a lot of survival ability.



That other thing I started poking at, I'll start a new thread for maybe this weekend when I have time to revisit it, going to start by cutting the spellcasting way back and replacing one of the abilities that was troublesome.