My DM says I'm "dealing too much damage"

[Gadzooks]

So I made a level 13 Paladin/Sorcerer 6/7 split and, after examine and calculating, realized that I could deal over 250 average damage in the first round if every attack hit. Excited, I went to tell my dad who is my DM. At first he said there was no way that was possible, but eventually accepted that the rules where firm on what I could do. Then, he said that I just couldn't do it because I shouldn't be able to do that much damage because it destroys game balance. Thats it, no conversation

I know the first thing your going to want to say is, just get a different DM, and your right, I should, except that 1. He's my dad and I want to try and resolve this if possible and 2. I don't have anyone else willing to DM a higher level adventure which is something I really want to do. So if anyone has any reasons or arguments that you think might change his mind, that would be great. Thanks.

[Kane0]

So just dont blow all your resources alpha-striking. Which tou generally shouldnt do anyway since you’ll usually be expected to deal with quite a few fights between rests.

[TheUser]

This is where high level boss monsters immune to level 6 and below spells keep the paladin/sorcerer at range and watch him flounder.

Your dad can do things to shut down your damage entirely but now it's no fun for you!

[stoutstien]

Yeah blowing half your total spell slots in one round is great....in the last fight before he get a long rest. But that being said I would probably ask a player to bench this idea if it was going to be way over the rest of the players expected output.
Just go pure pally. I doubt you will think even as a single class damage is lacking.

[Ganymede]

Unfortunately, I do not have any good advice regarding how you can improve your relationship with your dad.

Maybe adding in some warlock will smooth over this rough patch.

[ad_hoc]

What are you going to do for the next 23+ rounds before your next long rest?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Tell him that it will use almost all your resources. That you invested everything in order to make your character very strong for a very limited time everyday.

Tell him that after you use your super attack 2 times a day you become much weaker and can't repeat it for the day.

If he still don't want to you to use it then ask him to change your build.

[HappyDaze]

If he still don't want to you to use it then ask him to change your build.
I don't think he needs to ask to change it since it sounds like he's already being told to change it.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I don't think he needs to ask to change it since it sounds like he's already being told to change it.

It look like he just not allowed to use all his resources in the firat turn.

A lot of people feel that it is better to ban the problem action instead of baning the build.

[HappyDaze]

It look like he just not allowed to use all his resources in the firat turn.

A lot of people feel that it is better to ban the problem action instead of baning the build.

IMO, that's like giving someone a gun with an oversized magazine and trusting them not to fill it more than halfway.

[Malifice]

So I made a level 13 Paladin/Sorcerer 6/7 split and, after examine and calculating, realized that I could deal over 250 average damage in the first round if every attack hit.

Both attacks would need to be critical hits with a great-sword, with max Strength and GWM toggled on (4d6+15 damage each hit), and you'd need to spam a 4th level slot on each hit with divine smite on an undead (12d8) and then you would need to roll max damage on each of your 24 seperate d8's, and the 8 seperate d6's.

1/400 of getting the natural 20's followed by factoring in 24*1/8 x 8*1/6.

You of course also need a target not resistant to any of the damage dealt, and to have the slots available.

You have about the same odds of winning the lottery. Probably actually better chances of winning the lottery.

[Malifice]

What are you going to do for the next 23+ rounds before your next long rest?

The damage is possible with critical hits, and only expending 2 x 4th level slots.

As a Sorc 13/ Paladin 7 he has 4, 3, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1 slots available and 7 SP.

He could have a grand total of 11 x 4th slots (or thereabouts per long rest with shuffling his other slots and SP into extra 4th level slots.

If he was instead happy with 2nd level slots, he could largely spam 1 slot on each attack even on extended Adventuring days.

[HappyDaze]

The damage is possible with critical hits, and only expending 2 x 4th level slots.

As a Sorc 13/ Paladin 7 he has 4, 3, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1 slots available and 7 SP.

He could have a grand total of 11 x 4th slots (or thereabouts per long rest with shuffling his other slots and SP into extra 4th level slots.

If he was instead happy with 2nd level slots, he could largely spam 1 slot on each attack even on extended Adventuring days.

Could he not use 5th level slots for Smite (even if he doesn't have 5th level spells)? Assuming he has a means of getting a bonus action third attack, that's 18d8 in Smite damage (against non-Undead) plus whatever the three attacks do. With a glaive and Polearm Master he's up to 2d10+1d4+15 (because of course Strength 20) more damage, so 109.5 is what I'm seeing without critical hits or GWM.

[Gastronomie]

Is your dad okay with Wish, Divine Intervention, Prismatic Wall, Meteor Swarm, or, say, a Fighter 20 with 8 attacks a round (via Action Surge) on top of SS/GWM, and yet at the same time unwilling to let you play that build?

Because then, something is wrong.

The first thing I must tell you is your dad probably does not have experience playing an epic-level campaign. If he did he would know that talking about how a level 20 character is dangerous because it breaks the game is wrong. It's natural for a level 20 character to break the game. It's what they do. I doubt such a DM can give you a satisfying experience with an epic-level campaign.

You mention he's the only DM around you. Well, what are you on these boards for? I suggest you go ask and enjoy an online campaign.

[Gadzooks]

To answer how I got the over 250 average damage round 1.

Being a Sorcerer means that I have access to meta magic, namely twinning and quicken. This, combined with booming blade from the SCaG, a longsword Flame Tongue, casting haste on myself, a +7 Str, and Dueling fighting style means.

2x 2d8+1d8+2d6+6d8(5th level smite)+7+2 = 56.5 average damage
1x 2d8+1d8+2d6+5d8(4th level smite)+7+2 = 52 average damage
and 2x attacks from hast at
1d8+2d6+5d8(4th level smite)+7+2 = 43

and 56.5+56.5+52+43+43 = 251 damage on average without taking into account AC and all of that.

[HappyDaze]

To answer how I got the over 250 average damage round 1.

Being a Sorcerer means that I have access to meta magic, namely twinning and quicken. This, combined with booming blade from the SCaG, a longsword Flame Tongue, casting haste on myself, a +7 Str, and Dueling fighting style means.

2x 2d8+1d8+2d6+6d8(5th level smite)+7+2 = 56.5 average damage
1x 2d8+1d8+2d6+5d8(4th level smite)+7+2 = 52 average damage
and 2x attacks from hast at
1d8+2d6+5d8(4th level smite)+7+2 = 43

and 56.5+56.5+52+43+43 = 251 damage on average without taking into account AC and all of that.
You're combining Booming Blade with the attacks from Extra Attack. That doesn't work.
Where does you're third pre-Haste attack come from?
Haste also allows only one weapon attack with the Action it grants (even if you normally could take two with Extra Attack).

You could do:
Action: Attack (2 with lvl5 Smite 1d8+2d6+6d8+7+2=45.5 x 2=91)
Bonus Action: Booming Blade (with Quickened Spell and lvl4 Smite 1d8+2d6+2d8+5d8+7+2=52)
Haste Attack (with lvl4 Smite 1d8+2d6+5d8+7+2=43)
Total: 186

Still very respectable but only about 3/4 of what you have.

[lunaticfringe]

You gain no benefit from smite above 4th level. It maxes at 5d8 damage. I would like Sorcadins more if people read how their **** worked.

[Gadzooks]

You're combining Booming Blade with Extra Attack. That doesn't work.
Where does you're third pre-Haste attack come from?
Haste also allows only one weapon attack with the Action it grants (even if you normally could take two with Extra Attack).

The Sorcerer's Twinning and Quickening as I said before


You gain no benefit from smite above 4th level. It maxes at 5d8 damage. I would like Sorcadins more if people read how their **** worked.
You are completely correct, I didn't realize that. Take the 250 damage down by 9.

[HappyDaze]

You gain no benefit from smite above 4th level. It maxes at 5d8 damage. I would like Sorcadins more if people read how their **** worked.

I read the most recent errata. You are wrong.

[HappyDaze]

The Sorcerer's Twinning and Quickening as I said before
Show me how your action works, because that's just plain wrong. Who is the second target that you're Twinning the spell on? It doesn't double it up for you.

[lunaticfringe]

I read the most recent errata. You are wrong.

So I am. Additional Characters!

[Malifice]

To answer how I got the over 250 average damage round 1.

Being a Sorcerer means that I have access to meta magic, namely twinning and quicken. This, combined with booming blade from the SCaG, a longsword Flame Tongue, casting haste on myself, a +7 Str, and Dueling fighting style means.

2x 2d8+1d8+2d6+6d8(5th level smite)+7+2 = 56.5 average damage
1x 2d8+1d8+2d6+5d8(4th level smite)+7+2 = 52 average damage
and 2x attacks from hast at
1d8+2d6+5d8(4th level smite)+7+2 = 43

and 56.5+56.5+52+43+43 = 251 damage on average without taking into account AC and all of that.

1 extra attack from haste. Not 2.

And you've used 2 SP (quicken), 3 x 4th level slots (smites) and 1 x 3rd level slot (Haste) which also costs an action somewhere.

How are you getting Strength +7?

[Foxhound438]

How are you getting Strength +7?

probably some kind of belt of giant strength

Anyways, it all seems legitTM, except that haste gives one attack only (says so in the spell description), and twinning your attack cantrip requires a second creature next to you, which is no guarantee. Not to mention saying it's round one is probably not going to happen considering you have to take an action (or bonus action if you quicken it) to cast haste before hand if that's the case, and you probably don't have the stealth bonus to get a prep round more than the fabled 5% of the time. It is still a lot of damage though, and I've seen more than one thread on GitP about Sorcadins being extremely strong. That being said, you're at a level where wizards can "insta-kill" a single enemy with a forcecage in a combat with multiple opponents, so accounting for some corrections in your math it's probably still far from broken, especially if you aren't in "one encounter per day" land.

[ThePolarBear]

I read the most recent errata. You are wrong.


So I am. Additional Characters!

No he isn't. The most recent errata simply specifies that you do a maximum amount of 6d8 when smiting against Undeads/Fiends due to the bonus damage. The maximum damage from spell slots is still 5d8.

[Ganryu]

I just want to throw fuel on the fire. We can get so much more damage than that!

Warlock Paladin, an incredibly bad idea with a ton of burst damage!

Eldritch smite can combine with regular smite.

3/17 split, more warlock than paladin. Now, crits are not unbelievable in this build, because Pact of vengeance can give you advantage, hexblade can crit on a 19.

So let's say we are super lucky, and get two crits, we have great weapon fighting on, and our opponent is undead. we have 3 paladin spell slots at lvl 1, and 4 lvl 4 warlock spell slots.

Warlock smite + paladin smite + hex + GWM + 2 handed sword + hexblade's curse + charisma + ultimate weapon invocation
5d8 + 6d8 + 3d6 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 3
5d8 + 3d8 + 3d6 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 3
5d8 + 3d8 + 3d6 + 10 + 6 + 5 + 3

Lets assume crits, because Ganryu is bat**** insane, and it's not that far fetched. (Vengeance paladin and hexblade, so advantage, and can crit on a 19 or 20, more or less 1/125 chance)
30d8 + 24d8 + 18d6 + 30 + 18 + 15
(Max = 603)
120 + 96 + 54 + 30 + 18 + 15
333 damage average.

Now, that's alot of damage.

But to be serious, if your DM doesn't want you to play it, don't. Everyone at the table deserves to have fun. If your Dm doesn't want you to be able to steal their fun, that's alright, go with another class. Pure paladin is kind badass anyways. And there's a ton of different ways to handle combat. Also, if you're going to abuse Sorcerer/Paladin, use hold person first, forces everything to crit afterwards.

[jdolch]

Here is the thing: The Alpha Striking Ability of the Paladin (and especially the Sorcadin which you made) is well known. That doesn't mean you deal more Damage then other classes. It just means you can Dump all your Resources into very few Rounds. But then you're empty. So you can't keep that up and in fact should think very carefully if you do it at all. You should make that clear to your Father. He probably thinks that you can just dish that out whenever you want. You can't. Well you can, but then you are practically useless in the next 3 fights of the Day.

Is your Father new at DMing? He doesn't seem to understand what powerlevel he is playing at. You are playing at 13. So you do your 250 dmg Alpha Strike. Fine. Just a regular Dragon-Sorcerer can throw around powered up Fireballs at will and Reverse Gravity. A normal Wizard at that level can Create a Simulacrum of himself and double his casting power. Etc. People keep judging things out of context. Not saying the Sorcadin is bad. Just he is not OP. At 13 every good class that isn't built wrong will have a similar kind of power.

[Ganryu]

I do have to ask people here, do you guys actually have multiple fights a day? Never really comes up. If its an epic quest, run up to the tower, maybe a few mooks, come up to the boss, and bam, Paladin just nova'd him before he could do anything. Condensing damage is a very good thing, because healing in 5e sucks. So rather than wait out a long battle, everything is thrown before you get hurt. If the paladin manages to 1 shot a boss, (an adult Brass dragon, cr20, only has 297 health), then you've crippled combat, and made everyone else feel useless because they didn't get to do anything for the day.

Im a number munchkin, can see the other side of 'but I want to do so muuuuch', but if it's to let your players shine, then I can see a DM coming down harder than he should.

What the DM in this case really ought due is just not use multiclassing, it's an optional rule.

[ad_hoc]

I do have to ask people here, do you guys actually have multiple fights a day? Never really comes up.

The game is broken if you don't have multiple encounters per long rest.

All long rest characters are much stronger than others. And in order for the one combat to be challenging it needs to be so difficult that either the PCs decimate their enemies straight away or it is a TPK.

6-8 is a good ballpark. Of course some days could be shorter, but not knowing just how hard things are going to be means players will hold resources in reserve. If they don't then they're just asking for a TPK.

[jdolch]

6-8 is a good ballpark.

6-8 what? Full combat encounters per day? lol. You are a Warlock Main, aren't you?

Try 3 and then you can have some low intensity bouts sprinkled in between.

[ad_hoc]

6-8 what? Full combat encounters per day? lol. You are a Warlock Main, aren't you?

Try 3 and then you can have some low intensity bouts sprinkled in between.

Yes.

Suddenly long rest characters are no longer overpowered. The party needs to make tough decisions and there is ever increasing tension as the danger rises and the PCs get tired.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Is 250 points of damage even that much at 13th level? According to the DMG, you need a CR 19 monster to pose a deadly threat to a party of 4 at that level.

At that CR, you're expecting to see 350 effective HP at an AC of 19, so there's every chance that the enemies you should be facing can tank your 250 point strike (assuming it is even legal; I haven't read all the arguments up thread). And that's before we start to consider non-solo enemies that might be able to prevent you even making all your attacks through positioning etc., or the fact that you'll have to face several encounters in any given day.

[jdolch]

Yes.

Suddenly long rest characters are no longer overpowered. The party needs to make tough decisions and there is ever increasing tension as the danger rises and the PCs get tired.

I agree with you in principle but 6-8 encounters goes much too far and actually causes the same problems in reverse. I am not a Fan of the whole Short Rest - Long Rest divide and this is just an example of this. But as long as we can't get rid of it altogether I think 3 real fights/day is a good compromise and then you can add some little bouts that can be handled without anyone spending lots of resources.

With 6-8 Fights you are just doing to Long Rest Characters what a 5 Minute Adventuring day does to Short Rest Characters. Bad Idea. Real bad.

[LudicSavant]

To answer how I got the over 250 average damage round 1.

Being a Sorcerer means that I have access to meta magic, namely twinning and quicken. This, combined with booming blade from the SCaG, a longsword Flame Tongue, casting haste on myself, a +7 Str, and Dueling fighting style means.

2x 2d8+1d8+2d6+6d8(5th level smite)+7+2 = 56.5 average damage
1x 2d8+1d8+2d6+5d8(4th level smite)+7+2 = 52 average damage
and 2x attacks from hast at
1d8+2d6+5d8(4th level smite)+7+2 = 43

and 56.5+56.5+52+43+43 = 251 damage on average without taking into account AC and all of that.

This doesn't seem too out there in terms of nova damage, especially for a character using a Flametongue and assuming all their attacks hit. An unoptimized Fighter using that sword with Action Surge + Battlemaster maneuvers can do similar.

Edit: Misread the level, but the point still holds at 13.

With GWM/GWF, your basic Battlemaster is going to be doing 2d10+2d6+15 damage per maneuver hit (plus forcing a saving throw), and they'll be getting 5 of those, plus 1-2 more attacks (depending on whether they proc the bonus action hit from GWM).

Factoring in the increased dice averages from GWF, that works out to ~36 damage per maneuver hit, ~30 damage per normal. 240 damage if you proc the extra attack. And of course it's not hard to buff this further.

[jdolch]

You'd be outdamaged by a Fighter 20 using that sword with an Action Surge + Battlemaster maneuvers.

You mean a level 20 Character out-damages a Level 13 Character? Oh, the Humanity!

[Malifice]

I do have to ask people here, do you guys actually have multiple fights a day?


In my 3 year long campaign, weekly ran and running from 1st to well past 20th level, the PCs routinely had multiple encounters in a single adventuring day. The median number was around 6 encounters, featuring around 2 short rests per long rest. Sometimes more and sometimes less.

The default setting of DnD is, and always has been the 'dungeon'. Says so right on the tin. A zoomed in ruin/ monster lair/ castle/ forest/ dungeon/ temple featuring around half a dozen or more combat encounters plus traps, riddles, secret doors and other environmental challenges.

Virtually every single module and adventure ever written for the game across 5 editions and over 30 years features these areas as the central focus and main adventuring locale.

If you're doing it differently then more luck to you.

In my games, a player that blows his wad in encounter 1 and has no petrol left in the tank for the BBEG, only does it once. Characters are built around the assumption of half a dozen encounters and 2 short rests per long rest, so it's never an issue and game balance is maintained.

[Lombra]

Since he's your father I'd ask him to let you try it in-game and see if it really breaks something. If your father then sees a problem and can't solve it through better DMing, just roll with him and play a straight paladin, same feeling of a sorcadin but doesn't make anti-optimizers look the other way when you say it.

[LudicSavant]

You mean a level 20 Character out-damages a Level 13 Character? Oh, the Humanity!

Oof, I misread that. I was thinking 20th since Ganryu's character was 20th. My bad. That's what I get for responding at 3:27 AM! Thanks for the correction!

Anyways, the point still holds at 13.

In that case, the Battlemaster's damage would go down to ~36 per hit with a maneuver, ~30 without, 5 maneuvers, 6-7 attacks total.

So with 7, that's around 240 damage, and 5 saving throws.

Point is, doing around 250 damage with a full nova / assuming all hits isn't all that much to get worked up about IMHO. My players were doing similar and I had no trouble challenging them.

[Malifice]

With 6-8 Fights you are just doing to Long Rest Characters what a 5 Minute Adventuring day does to Short Rest Characters. Bad Idea. Real bad.

Working off 6 medium encounters per short rest of around 3-5 rounds each, how do you figure that?

That's enough at tier 2 (5th to 11th) for most long rest classes to drop those resources multiple times per encounter. Barbarians are raging 75 percent of the time. Casters can dump a 3rd plus level slot in at least half those encounters at 5th (and have enough petrol to do it in every encounter twice by 11th level). Paladins have 1 smite per encounter at 5th level, increasing as they advance.

I'm sorry but I'm not seeing it.

[MoiMagnus]

So I made a level 13 Paladin/Sorcerer 6/7 split and, after examine and calculating, realized that I could deal over 250 average damage in the first round if every attack hit. Excited, I went to tell my dad who is my DM. At first he said there was no way that was possible, but eventually accepted that the rules where firm on what I could do. Then, he said that I just couldn't do it because I shouldn't be able to do that much damage because it destroys game balance. Thats it, no conversation

I know the first thing your going to want to say is, just get a different DM, and your right, I should, except that 1. He's my dad and I want to try and resolve this if possible and 2. I don't have anyone else willing to DM a higher level adventure which is something I really want to do. So if anyone has any reasons or arguments that you think might change his mind, that would be great. Thanks.

Yes, it is possible to "break the game" by having a character too optimized compared to the opposition you have.
Don't get me wrong, the game is not broken in general, you didn't found an OP combo, but you did found a combination that against the "standard DM" break the game.

Your DM/dad could counter that without too much problems by:
+ Putting enemies immune to this combo
+ Make decoys (so you burst all those spells against "not the true boss")
+ Make sure you never know if there will be another boss after, another difficult encounter after
+ Make alpha-strike against you to make sure you don't have the time to have a first turn
+ ...
But you probably don't want to go into an "weapon race" against your DM. (or at least, he does not seems to want to engage one)

My main suggestion would be to give up the "simulation" side, and accept that you are in a "power fantasy story", so you will keep your best attacks for the climax with lines like "So, it seems I have underestimate you. You are indeed worthy of my mightiest attack. Prepare to suffer the true power of (insert your god's name)".

[LudicSavant]

With 6-8 Fights you are just doing to Long Rest Characters what a 5 Minute Adventuring day does to Short Rest Characters. Bad Idea. Real bad.

We run 6-8 encounter days in dungeons, and the Wizards and Paladins were still doing just fine. You just have to budget your resources smartly.

[ad_hoc]

With 6-8 Fights you are just doing to Long Rest Characters what a 5 Minute Adventuring day does to Short Rest Characters. Bad Idea. Real bad.

Stop using your spells and abilities every chance you get.

Let the Rogue shine sometimes.

[MeimuHakurei]

Does your father know how a strafing run works? At Level 13, dragons are an expected threat and their flight can easily reduce a melee character's DPR from ~250 to 0.

[HappyDaze]

Does your father know how a strafing run works? At Level 13, dragons are an expected threat and their flight can easily reduce a melee character's DPR from ~250 to 0.

He's trying to min-max a character with Sorcerer levels and magical gear. Between the two, I'm pretty sure he can fly somehow.

[Malifice]

He's trying to min-max a character with Sorcerer levels and magical gear. Between the two, I'm pretty sure he can fly somehow.

Is a 13th level paladin plus some sorcerer levels with Str buffing gear and s flaming sword min maxing now?

I've been rocking martials with Strength buffing girdles/ belts etc and magic swords since AD&D.

It's not exactly Pun Pun were talking about here.

[LudicSavant]

Is 250 points of damage even that much at 13th level? According to the DMG, you need a CR 19 monster to pose a deadly threat to a party of 4 at that level.

To emphasize this point further: It'd be even higher CR than that, since the DMG calculations apparently don't assume magic gear. And this guy is apparently rocking a good deal of it.

Also, since they're using Twin, that damage is split amongst multiple targets. And they said they were getting 2x attacks from Haste, even though they'd only be getting 1.

[HappyDaze]

Is a 13th level paladin plus some sorcerer levels with Str buffing gear and s flaming sword min maxing now?

I've been rocking martials with Strength buffing girdles/ belts etc and magic swords since AD&D.

It's not exactly Pun Pun were talking about here.

Yes. Note that I said min-max, not breaking the game. The character is being built for optimized damage output, and I'm pretty sure he has considered a delivery system for his warhead.

[Unoriginal]

You mean a level 20 Character out-damages a Level 13 Character? Oh, the Humanity!

A Paladin 13/Sorcerer 6-7 isn't a Lvl 13 character.


Is a 13th level paladin plus some sorcerer levels with Str buffing gear and s flaming sword min maxing now?.

Yes. Sorcerer/Paladin is probably the most commonly discusses Nova build out here. The spell list to augment the number of attack and boost the attack further, as well as the items that boost the damage, is a straight attempt at min-maxing Nova damage.

Because even if the build can actually DO those 240+ damages for one round of one combat for the day... what else can they do?

[jdolch]

A Paladin 13/Sorcerer 6-7 isn't a Lvl 13 character.


So I made a level 13 Paladin/Sorcerer 6/7 split.

Granted: There should be some interpunction in there. How about this?


So I made a level 13 Paladin/Sorcerer, 6/7 split.

[LudicSavant]

A Paladin 13/Sorcerer 6-7 isn't a Lvl 13 character.

Hah, I read it the same way. But apparently the intention was "Paladin 6/Sorcerer 7" and there was just no punctuation.

[Unoriginal]

Granted there should be some interpunction there.

My bad.



With 6-8 Fights you are just doing to Long Rest Characters what a 5 Minute Adventuring day does to Short Rest Characters. Bad Idea. Real bad.

That's straight up nonsense, though. Trying to exploit rest mechanics with a 5 min adventuring day is nothing like actually going through the adventure day and having to do ressource management as intended. If people go: "Oh no, my character risk to runs low on ressources because I've spent them! Internet lied to me about how OP it was", it's not the game's nor the DM's fault (although the DM should tell them trying to exploit rest mechanics won't fly).

More logically, though, 4-5 encounters of Medium-Hard-Deadly difficulty are much more likely than 6 of just Medium.

[Keravath]

Some comments ..

1) One thing about all these "damage" discussions is they are predicated on every attack hitting. For most common challenges geared to character level the chance to hit is between 40% and 60%.

2) The basic game does not necessarily assume characters will have ideal gear. A +7 strength modifier requires a 24 or 25 strength which can only be obtained from a Girdle of Fire Giant strength. In addition, the character also has a flametongue greatsword that adds 2d6 fire damage/hit.

However, it requires a bonus action to activate the sword.

3) The character is 13th level - 6th paladin and 7th sorc which makes a 10th level caster. A 10th level caster has 2 5th level slots and 3 4th level slots. They also have 7 sorcery points. Buying an additional 5th level slot will use ALL 7, prevent the use of any other metamagic and costs a bonus action. So, if the character wishes to use quicken ... which costs 2 sorcery points they will only have 2 5th level slots.

4) The damage is predicated on having haste active. This costs an action. So the entire first round of combat this character stands around activating their longsword and casting haste. They do no damage on the first round.

5) Neither GWM nor PAM are factors since it is a longsword.

6) The attack sequence appears to be ..

Attack action for 2 attacks with flametongue longsword
Haste for one more attack with flametongue longsword
Cast quickened booming blade for an additional flametongue longsword attack

You can only use ONE metamagic at a time so you can't quicken and twin booming blade ... You could twin booming blade as an action if there are two adjacent targets and then cast it again as a bonus action using quicken but then you don't get the extra attack action.

7) How much average damage can this THEORETICALLY do ... assuming everything hits ... and the paladin expends 2 5th level spell slots and 2 4th level spell slots on smites? 5th level slots do 6d8 while 4th level slots do 5d8. Also, since the paladin is expending ALL of their level 5 slots and most of their level 4 slots this is a ONE time for each long rest ability and the paladin will not have spell slots for casting other useful spells.

Regular hit: d8 +2d6 + 7 +2 = 20.5 (longsword+flametongue+str+dueling)
5th level smite: 6d8 = 27
4th level smite: 5d8 = 22.5
13th level booming blade = 2d8 + possible 3d8 if they move ... moving is optional so we will use 2d8 = 9

Attack 1: regular hit + 5th level smite = 20.5 + 27 = 47.5
Attack 2: extra attack : regular hit + 5th level smite = 20.5 + 27 = 47.5
Attack 3: quickened booming blade : regular hit + 4th level smite + booming blade = 20.5 + 22.5 + 9 = 52
Attack 4: haste attack: regular attack + 4th level smite = 20.5 + 22.5 = 43

Total possible average damage = 47.5+47.5+52+43 = 190

If you instead twin booming blade (not use extra attack) against two adjacent target you will then do an additional 4d8 but the damage is now divided over multiple targets. 4d8 average = 18. So total possible damage in this case is now 208. Booming blade does NOT stack. So if BOTH the target decided to move for some reason then each would take an additional 3d8 which is 13.5 or 26 total bringing the maximum average damage to 234 divided over two targets. However, including rider damage based on target actions isn't useful since the target will likely avoid taking the actions that incur the additional damage.

However, you can do this exactly ONCE/long rest.

The first round is activating the sword and casting haste. You do nothing. The second round you could reach 190 damage against a single target IF everything hits. On the next round you will have 1 4th level slot, 2 third level and 1 second level slots to use (you used a 3rd level slot on haste). This reduces the damage by 6d8 or 27 = 190-27 = 163. The third time you try it will burn 2 2nd level slots and 2 first level slots for 12d8 less damage than the first alpha = 190 - 54 = 136. After that, you are done. In addition, this will use up 6 sorcery points using quicken and you will be out of spell slots to make more. This represents blowing 100% of the characters resources on 3 attacks.

However, the baseline damage on this build is still good due to the flametongue longsword and the girdle of fire giant strength.

With just haste this will be 61.5 average damage in a round if all three attacks hit (which seems pretty decent). However, the Flametongue sword is contributing 21 of this and the additional strength is worth 6. Without those the average damage drops to 34/round.


So .. yes the character can do close to 200 alpha damage ONCE/Long rest IF everything hits.

P.S. If the character does this then they have NO resources to spend on additional combats during the day. Even with only three of four fights in a day ... a paladin who blows all of their resources in one attack doing this is making themselves immensely more vulnerable for later combats. The DM in this case should be pretty strict in terms of not allowing characters to take long rests without consequences since a character who does blow all their resources on a couple of attacks is likely to start whining for a long rest very soon after.

[MadBear]

In my experience the fun of theorycrafting a character that can do insane damage is far more fun then you'll ever have playing that character.

I remember back during the first 5e campaign that I was in, I had a Paladin 13 who 1-shot a green dragon (over 2 turns, 1 turn setup, 1 turn attack). This was back when I had a +2 greatsword that dealt an extra 2d6 necrotic damage, boot that let me fly, a wizard who cast haste, and when we thought that the GW fighting style let you reroll all dice and not just the weapon.

I remember thinking how cool it would be, only to find the whole situation completely boring as an epic encounter became trivial.

3 attacks with advantage (2 normal, 1 haste) (2 crit) : 2d6 (sword) + 2d6 (necrotic)+1d8 (improved smite) + 5d8 (smite) + 5 (strength) + 2 (sword)

Plus there was a bonus action smite spell in there somewhere.

After that battle, me and the DM decided against allowing the rerolls on all dice. It's not that I couldn't alpha strike the rest of the campaign, I just found it wasn't as fun as I thought it would be. Especially making everyone wait as I waded through the ocean of dice rolls and math to arrive at the final damage.

[Willie the Duck]

As others have stated, this seems more of a case of your DM (Dad) suffering from sticker-shock at how much damage you could deal in a round than any actual break in the game.

Others are right, this is not a massive outlier, compared to what kind of world-shaking other classes/builds of your level can do. The sorcadin is rather specialized in massive nova-damage, so it should be unsurprising that they are really good at what they are focused on.

That said, there is absolutely an argument that hyperfocused builds can be disruptive to a game. Third edition had something called a 'Hulking Hurler' build, which could, for all intents and purposes, have an effectively infinitely* high to-hit and damage with thrown boulders. It had a huge number of weak spots and counter-measures (such as defenses other than AC), so it wasn't even one of the most abusive builds in the edition, but it was a pain to DMs because then you had to set up encounters with this in mind.
*Higher than anything had the AC or hit points to withstand, at least

For that reason, I can understand your DM wanting to limit this character in some ways. If for no other reason than so that the other players can feel like they contribute to combat situations. However, in a perfect situation, the DM should instead rise to the challenge and start building the adventuring day such that blowing your arsenal of spell slots on first round novas isn't the best idea (or at least not an overpowered idea). Paladin smites are actually rather inefficient. It's like powering your car with gunpowder--there's actually more capture-able energy in gasoline, it just doesn't release as quickly. If the DM is controlling the adventuring day well, this becomes a non-issue.

[MilkmanDanimal]

As a dad who DMs for his kids, I have to say . . . I'm pretty much on Team Dad at this point. Here's the thing--if you're playing in a group full of optimized characters, then your optimized character is fine and fits in. If everybody else is just playing a, for lack of a better term, "normal" character and you come in and one-shot the boss for 200hp in one round, everybody sits around and twiddles their thumbs and wonders why they're there. You made a great character, sure, but my guess is it doesn't fit the campaign, and straight-up banning that character is absolutely the correct choice for a DM. Sure, it's a nova and the DM can run a long adventuring day where you don't get your resources back, but, really, is that going to be fun for you? If you only get to do that massive damage once a session, isn't that going to be frustrating from your point of view? If that's the case, either everybody else feels pointless because you destroy everything, or you get pissed off because your character is a walking tactical nuke that doesn't get to go off often enough.

Figure out a character than can have its moments but not completely overwhelm everybody else. Go Team Dad.

[Edenbeast]

So if anyone has any reasons or arguments that you think might change his mind, that would be great. Thanks.

Call your character Luke Skywalker, so your DM can have the main villain say "No. I am your father."

In all seriousness, there's quite a few posts here that show that it's not so overpowered as it seems, but also some good arguments why you shouldn't play this character. You could just refer to this thread, so he can read it for himself and then decide. I guess your DM-dad might have some campaign ideas already, and if he knows what the other characters will be, and he thinks yours is overpowered compared to them, then maybe you should not play this character. A simple solution for him is to not allow multi classing. But, I also think it has to do with the

... after examine and calculating, realized that I could deal over 250 average damage in the first round if every attack hit. Excited, I went to tell...
part, which probably led him to perceive your character as overpowered.

[NaughtyTiger]

You can't quicken AND twin the same spell.

"You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted."

[Willie the Duck]

Sure, it's a nova and the DM can run a long adventuring day where you don't get your resources back, but, really, is that going to be fun for you? If you only get to do that massive damage once a session, isn't that going to be frustrating from your point of view? If that's the case, either everybody else feels pointless because you destroy everything, or you get pissed off because your character is a walking tactical nuke that doesn't get to go off often enough.

A sorcadin doesn't have to use their abilities just for nova-ing. At one table, we instituted a rule that paladins can only use spell slots gained through levels of paladin for smite purposes, and multi-class paladins still happened and were deemed fun to play.

However, I tend to agree with your general point. Playing an optimized build at a table where everyone else is disruptive to overall fun. I'm just a tiny bit worried that the DM will opt to use banning as a control mechanism more frequently that learning to have some fine control over encounters per rest (as that seems to be the skill most needed to successfully DM this edition). There's no one person to blame here, nor really a need for blame, so much as simple course correction when the game plays out in opposition to expectations.

[Misterwhisper]

You can't quicken AND twin the same spell.

"You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted."

You can quicken and twin in the same round though

Ex.

Normal flame bolt Twinned
Quicken Flame Bolt

[NaughtyTiger]

You can quicken and twin in the same round though

Ex.

Normal flame bolt Twinned
Quicken Flame Bolt

Thanks?

The OP stated he quickened and twinned GFB for the 2 attacks.
I specifically stated that you c"You can't quicken AND twin the same spell."

[KorvinStarmast]

I do have to ask people here, do you guys actually have multiple fights a day?
Yes. We do. And as a DM, I try to put together three hard fights per day minimum, though "hard" is usually budgeted as between "hard" and "deadly" XP budget so it works out about right.

Why do we do it that way when I DM? Because I like to get three solid fights per session, or per adventure day if wives and other stuff drag enough of us off because RL is a thing. Even so we barely get them done (in one session) since it is a beer and pretzels game with revolving participants and a lot of grabass/play practical jokes on each other stuff going on. We have a lot of fun.

My group (well, my brother's world, so "our group" since we share DMs and our third DM is expected to get back from RL exile next year) is too distracted (we can only play on roll20 since we are all over the country) too often to try and fit in 6 medium encounters in ... I find that harder encounters tend to focus the group's attention better.

I am in a couple of other groups that have a similar set up, but the players in those groups are much more focused in general.

[Marywn]

Hi, Phil Swift here with Flex Tape! The super-strong waterproof tape! That can instantly patch, bond, seal, and repair!

[Gadzooks]

So a couple of things. You all are right, my first post is horribly unpunctuated, a problem I often suffer from. I think the problem my dad had is the idea that I could save all my slots and then kill the boss right away at the end. Also, probably a little important, the character is for a high level 1-off he's running. Anyways, thank you for pointing out the flaws in what I said, and for pointing out that that amount of damage isn't extremely out there.

[jdolch]

You could just refer to this thread, so he can read it for himself and then decide.

Good Idea.


if wives and other stuff drag enough of us off because RL is a thing.

You should pay more attention when building your RL Character next time. That sounds like a fatal flaw. :smallbiggrin:

[Corran]

So I made a level 13 Paladin/Sorcerer 6/7 split and, after examine and calculating, realized that I could deal over 250 average damage in the first round if every attack hit. Excited, I went to tell my dad who is my DM. At first he said there was no way that was possible, but eventually accepted that the rules where firm on what I could do. Then, he said that I just couldn't do it because I shouldn't be able to do that much damage because it destroys game balance. Thats it, no conversation

I know the first thing your going to want to say is, just get a different DM, and your right, I should, except that 1. He's my dad and I want to try and resolve this if possible and 2. I don't have anyone else willing to DM a higher level adventure which is something I really want to do. So if anyone has any reasons or arguments that you think might change his mind, that would be great. Thanks.
I don't get how you would be able to deal that much damage on average, even if we are assuming hits. Maybe you miscalculated sth and that miscalculation is causing you the problem (did you assume a quickened hold monster or sth?). But that's beside the point. Whether your dad is right or not about thinking that whatever it is your character can do might break the game, I would guess that he is not asking you to change characters in order to enjoy the game less, but so that you can enjoy the game more. I mean, nova builds can easily be countered by throwing lots of encounters at them, or by playing with the variant rules for rest, or by other methods that I cannot think of because I am not a great DM. So I am guessing that your dad does not have the time to tailor the campaign in such a way so that characters with extreme combat behavior will not ruin it or will not be ruined by it. There are plenty of other builds that allow a good alpha strike if you really want to go with such a build (for example, assassins, or even better at that level thief rogues, or gloomstalker rangers, or fighters, etc). Playing a build that allows a very damaging opening round will not break the game at these levels, but if you push it very far you usually do it at the expense of your character's efficiency during the remaining encounters (or combat rounds) of the day, and this sort of combat approach, will probably lead into either trivializing encounters that were meant to be scary, or doing very little which can even lead to character death or even a TPK assuming your bet didn't pay off during a scary encounter. None of these scenarios help making a campaign more successful and fun (for everyone involved). If I were you, I'd listen to my DM, because whether they were right or wrong about this, going with their wishes would also mean that I would be helping them with their job. And a DM planning a high level campaign needs all the help they can get.

[Willie the Duck]

I do have to ask people here, do you guys actually have multiple fights a day? Never really comes up. If its an epic quest, run up to the tower, maybe a few mooks, come up to the boss, and bam, Paladin just nova'd him before he could do anything. Condensing damage is a very good thing, because healing in 5e sucks. So rather than wait out a long battle, everything is thrown before you get hurt. If the paladin manages to 1 shot a boss, (an adult Brass dragon, cr20, only has 297 health), then you've crippled combat, and made everyone else feel useless because they didn't get to do anything for the day.


Btw, what you described does not sound like an epic quest.

Yes, actually. We generally do fighting (if at all) in something akin to a dungeon (maybe not physically, but effectively), where the goal requires careful consideration on whether to leave and rest up to regain your arsenal, because some part of the objective will not be there when you come back, or the enemies will have made plans based on the idea that you will be coming back to kick their butts again.

More to the point, when our campaign is different, such that many combats/day is unrealistic, we change the recharge rate to match. You do not have to do so, but if you don't you will have to tone up the challenges for them to be, well, challenging, and you are really making the game more amenable to classes and builds which focus on Long Rest recharging expendable resources.

[Keravath]

A character with a 20 strength can use a Manual of Gainful Exercise to raise their strength to 22. Then should they acquire a Deck of Many Things and draw the Star card they can raise their strength to 24.

A 20th level character could raise their strength to 24 if the optional rules for boons are used.

Still, you're probably right in that is where he gets his 24 strength from, but just wanted to point other ways to obtain a 24.



* emphasis mine

Sure :) ... but at 13th level I think the Girdle is the most likely option. A manual would also be a possibility but the one specific card from a Deck of Many Things is a long shot :)

[Matrix_Walker]

Unfortunately, I do not have any good advice regarding how you can improve your relationship with your dad.

Maybe adding in some warlock will smooth over this rough patch.

Thank you. Thank you so much. :D

[Damon_Tor]

So if anyone has any reasons or arguments that you think might change his mind, that would be great. Thanks.

Keep submitting totally different characters with similar nova potential. At level 13 a Ranger (Gloom Stalker) / Rogue (Assassin) / Fighter (Battle Bastard) should be able to throw around those kinds of numbers too, and with far less reliance on daily resources.

[strangebloke]

Classic Problem.

Players almost always optimize to absurd degrees. "Ultra-High AC" character is a classic one. "Ultra-High Burst Damage" is another one. Such characters aren't (IMO) as good as true generalists unless there's some individually broken mechanic (as there was in 3.5) You have high AC but your WIS save sucks. You have high burst potential but your mobility is deplorable.

Anyway, a player will make something like this and go crazy. "I'm going to be a god!!" They brag about their absurd character build to everyone.

This worries the DM, who's trying very hard to make challenging encounters that give everyone a chance to shine. Particularly if the DM is sort of new and is used to being a player, they'll see the HYPER_OPTIMIZED build as a threat to all that. They think that the HYPER_OPTIMIZED build will trivialize their awesome encounters without letting anyone else shine.

Its a real concern! If you're in this situation as a DM, you can't just up the difficulty because then the other players get sidelined even harder.

But in 5e, generally, it shouldn't be a concern. There really aren't any builds that can deal with all of the following superbly well

Huge groups of enemies (Martials, particularly ranged characters, struggle here)
High mobility/stealthy enemies(difficult for low-mobility melee builds to do much. Can also be hard for buff-based casters to fight since they'll lose concentration)
Long adventuring days/high HP enemies (Casters other than warlocks struggle here.)
High AC monsters (Martials have trouble here)
Monsters with high saves and/or magic resistance (For you, casters)
Single ultra-deadly encounters(Hard for low-resource classes like the rogue)
close-range 'knife fights.' (archers don't like barroom brawls.)


...And that's ignoring out-of-combat challenges, which are a whole 'nother domain someone can shine in.

Your particular build is actually pretty low-mobility and reliant on hitting with melee attacks. It doesn't have great perception abilities, and though it has good saves, it's vulnerable to things like shoves and certain spells that require ability checks. It doesn't have a lot of features that are good outside of combat, and relies on expending tons of resources. It probably can deal with 'wide' encounters, but not nearly so well as the casters can.

Don't get me wrong, its strong, but if I were your DM, I wouldn't find your build disruptive at all. Yeah, you nuked that dragon, good for you. Next quest is a race-against-the-clock investigation of a powerful blood mage criminal syndicate, filled with one bloody day of running battles, conversations with criminal, and finale involving an aerial fight against a cackling lich who has gargantuan undead tentacle beasts that grapple you and restrict your movement while he calls down a meteor storm on your heads.

Story time!

I currenly have an overpowered PC in my group. Average optimization levels are eh, but this guy is a TWF and we're at really low levels. He has 19 AC due to abusing some of my homebrew. He's also using the overpowered 'brute archetype. In a whiteroom, his damage is more than double any other party member's damage.

In the last encounter, the fighter was unable to do anything of consequence.

The group was up against 4 guards (CR 1/8) and 2 scouts (CR 1/2). The scouts used their superior mobility to stay out of reach, running behind barricades that granted cover and popping off arrows at the approaching party. The guards moved right next to the party members and dodged. This forced the players to either eat attacks of opportunity just to get within reach of the enemy, or to deal with the guards first. The guards had 17 AC and were dodging, meaning that the fighter with his +6 to attack could only hit a guard 20% of the time! His allies whose damage focused on saving throws did much better, and the allies who could move quickly (a wood elf ranger) were actually a lot more important to winning the encounter than he was.

[Unoriginal]

... sorry, someone genuinely think TWF, AC 19 and Brute are overpowered?

what.

[Psikerlord]

Goes to show how broken multiclassing anything with paladin is

[strangebloke]

... sorry, someone genuinely think TWF, AC 19 and Brute are overpowered?

what.

Kind of insulting tone, yeah?

I'd agree that it isn't overpowered. That was the point of my post: that generally speaking, specialized characters aren't overpowered at all.

But at 3rd level, a brute twf character does deal a lot of damage, and there aren't many enemies who target things like WIS saves yet, so 19 AC seems pretty powerful, especially when no one has maxed DEX or gotten full plate yet. It doesn't help that I typically run pretty full adventuring days.

Compared to the bard that doesn't wear armor but spends half her turns healing herself (she's by far the worst) the fighter does seem pretty overpowered. Even compared to the reasonably-optimized-but-basic paladin, who deals less damage even when he smites, or the gish wizard, who has to cast shield to equal the brute's AC, it seems quite strong.

The other experienced player, the fey warlock, absolutely is as strong as the fighter, but is more of a generalist, so people don't see her as overpowered.

[Unoriginal]

Goes to show how broken multiclassing anything with paladin is

Well, sure, it shows how broken it is: not at all.


Kind of insulting tone, yeah?

I apologize for that. It was meant to be puzzled. Though I suppose the puzzlement can be insulting in its own right.




I'd agree that it isn't overpowered. That was the point of my post: that generally speaking, specialized characters aren't overpowered at all.

Fair, but I don't get why anyone would believe those things are OP. Or even require optimization.



But at 3rd level, a brute twf character does deal a lot of damage, and there aren't many enemies who target things like WIS saves yet, so 19 AC seems pretty powerful, especially when no one has maxed DEX or gotten full plate yet.

A STR figther's starting equipment (without including any class feature) can easily grant them 18 AC. Chainmail+ shield. And a Brute of this level on average delivers 2 damages per turn than other fighters with the same weapon, so if they're TWF that's likely something like an average of 7 damages per round.

It'd pretty great, but what I'm saying is, if they consider this to be OP, I'm wondering why they don't consider a lvl 1 STR Fighter with a Greatsword to be OP.





Compared to the bard that doesn't wear armor but spends half her turns healing herself (she's by far the worst) the fighter does seem pretty overpowered. Even compared to the reasonably-optimized-but-basic paladin, who deals less damage even when he smites, or the gish wizard, who has to cast shield to equal the brute's AC, it seems quite strong.

Ah, I see.

[Malifice]

But in 5e, generally, it shouldn't be a concern. There really aren't any builds that can deal with all of the following superbly well

Huge groups of enemies (Martials, particularly ranged characters, struggle here)
High mobility/stealthy enemies(difficult for low-mobility melee builds to do much. Can also be hard for buff-based casters to fight since they'll lose concentration)
Long adventuring days/high HP enemies (Casters other than warlocks struggle here.)
High AC monsters (Martials have trouble here)
Monsters with high saves and/or magic resistance (For you, casters)
Single ultra-deadly encounters(Hard for low-resource classes like the rogue)
close-range 'knife fights.' (archers don't like barroom brawls.)
.

I'm not so sure about that. My Hex-adin-sorc-ard can kind of do all the above.

Valas De'Vir, NG Half-Elf(Drow) Male Paladin of Elistraee, and Darkmoon Knight (Knight of the Order Background). Half Drow son of Viconia De'Vir (one time companion of both Drizzt Do'Urden, and Abdel Adrian, Bhaalspawn and Duke of Baldurs Gate):

AC = Full plate, defence FS style, + defensive flourish (1d8) + shield (mirror image, blur), other defensive spells as needed AC 21-34
Saves = + Cha to saves; +2d4 to 1 save 1/short rest, Lucky feat, Half damage from all spells (Ancients), Immunity to disease, adv vs Charmed, Absorb elements; saves = +7, +4,+7, +12, +12, +16
Skills = Jack of all trades, expertise in Perception +13 [Passive 23 + Darkvision] +1 other (Perform for the fluff), 7 skills proficient.
Spellcasting = 13th level; (slots: 4, 3, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1), 4 SP, + 2 X 2nd level slots per short rest, all based on Cha (20)
Melee combat = Extra attack, GWM + Pact Greatsword [Moonblade; the singing sword of the Dark Dancer]+ Elven accuracy, (20 Cha), + Cha to hit/ damage, Divine smite, occasional quickened cantrips, Sword bard flourises, smite spells, Hexblades curse
Ranged combat: Eldritch blast (20 Cha) + Cha to hit and damage, quickened spells, Hexblades curse
Spells: Paladin, Warlock, Bard, Sorcer (and Cleric) list available. 1-3rd level spells known (various) 7th level slots available, CL 13th.
Party buffing: Spells , Paladin auras, Bardic inspiration, song of rest
[B]Movement: 30' base, 40' with blade flourish, Misty step, Levitate, Expeditious retreat, Longstrider known
AoE: Moonbeam, Hypnotic pattern
Social pillar: Charisma 20, Persuasion +11, Deception +11, Insight +7, Intimidate +8, Performance +17, comprehend languages at will (ritual), Background feature.

At will:

Cantrips (knows 11 - Eldritch blast, Greenflame blade, Booming blade, Dancing lights, Blade ward, True srike, Prestidigitation, Light, Message, Mage hand, Mending), GWM, extra attack, 7 x skills (2 x expertise, rest at half proficiency), ritual spells (Bard) Detect magic, comprehend languages

Per short rest resources:

5 x Bardic inspiration die (d8s) or Bardic Flourishes
2 x 2nd level slots (mostly for smites)
1 x Hexblades curse
1 x Channel divinity (natures wrath, turn the faithless)
1 x +2d4 to 1 save or attack roll
2 x Sup dice (d6) Riposte and Tripping strike (Note: Martial adept, house rule that it gives 2/ dice per SR)
Hit dice

Per long rest resources:

4 x SP (quicken, subtle)
Slots (4, 3, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1): Known: Armor of Agathys, Mirror image, Shield, Bless, Ensnaring strike, Cure Wounds, Branding smite, Burning smite, Find steed, Misty Step, Moonbeam, Hypnotic pattern, Lesser Restoration, Magic Missile, Absorb elements, Dispel magic, Levitate, Longstrider, Expeditious retreat, Silence, Detect magic, Comprehend Languages, Faerie fire, Darkness
LoH: 40 points
Divine sense: 5/LR
3 x Lucky re-rolls
1/ Faerie fire, 1/ Darkness (racial)

(Actual build is Hexblade 3 (blade), Ancients Paladin 8, Swords Bard 5, Divine Soul Sorcerer 4 - Half Elf (SCAG Drow variant), House rule is all races get a bonus feat at 1st level, no Vumans allowed).

Excellent defences (all armor and shields, Lucky, 1/SR save bonus of +2d4, immunities, divine grace + Cha to saves, Ancients aura, defensive flourish, spells), excellent single target damage (usual Sorcadin nova option: extra attack, smite, GWM, quickened cantrips, Hexblades curse, smite spells), solid AoE (moonbeam, hypnotic pattern), good skills, good at buffing the party with auras and bardic inspiration (including healing others), excellent party face.

Can effectively function at a very high level even on longer adventuring day featuring multiple encounters, and can nova like any other Socadin when the need arises.

I guess I cant fly (although I can levitate and move 50' a round whenever I take the attack action with Longstrider active at the cost of a 1st level slot for the day) which is unusual for a 20th level PC, but that's where items come in (Boots of flying, I'm looking at you). That's about the only weakness.

I could also drop a feat (Lucky) and switch out that 8th level of Paladin for an extra (5th) level of Sorcerer, and take 2 x 3rd level spells (likely Spirit guardians and Counterspell or Fly) just to bolster AoE and mobility options.

Pretty much covers all the bases I reckon. Plus, it's fluffy as ****.

[strangebloke]

I'm not so sure about that. My Hex-adin-sorc-ard can kind of do all the above.

Snip

Pretty much covers all the bases I reckon. Plus, it's fluffy as ****.

2 expertise and reliable talent look pretty silly next to a 20th level bard or rogue.

Hypnotic pattern isn't an amazing aoe spell compared to other high level options

Not flying is a major (if common) shortcoming at high levels.

Eldritch blast is fine, but hardly comparable to a sharpshooter build.

It covers all the bases pretty well, and it's a strong build, but ultimately it's a generalist build, and if the rest of the party are specialists it will be behind individuals of the party in most challenges.

[Willie the Duck]

It covers all the bases pretty well, and it's a strong build, but ultimately it's a generalist build, and if the rest of the party are specialists it will be behind individuals of the party in most challenges.

Even then, it is a build for a level 20 one-shot. Playing that thing from 1 through 20 it will see a lot of levels where it just plain underperforms compared to a single-class example of each of the 4 things it is made up of.

[AHF]

No he isn't. The most recent errata simply specifies that you do a maximum amount of 6d8 when smiting against Undeads/Fiends due to the bonus damage. The maximum damage from spell slots is still 5d8.

Is there a site where the most recent errata is posted? Sounds like people are confused and their posts don’t make it clear to me. Thanks in advance!

[darknite]

Yeah, as a player I love Supernova Strikes. As a DM I loathe them. One issue with 5e is that the 'hitting is funner than missing' mechanic means that rolling to hit with big-damage attacks are rote by high level, meaning it's only possible for most based-monsters to have any recourse other than having lots of HP, to survive them.

[Malifice]

2 expertise and reliable talent look pretty silly next to a 20th level bard or rogue.

Never made the claim to be as good as a 20th level single class in any one area; just made the claim that the character fulfills all your criteria, in that it's well rounded and effective in all areas, plus it's able to function at a high level on both longer and shorter adventuring days.


It covers all the bases pretty well, and it's a strong build, but ultimately it's a generalist build, and if the rest of the party are specialists it will be behind individuals of the party in most challenges.

It's still a Hexblade + Cha 20 + elven accuracy + GWM Sorcadin with divine smite, extra attack and quickened greenflame blade + a 3rd smite (plus active spell buff) nova options.

Its designed around a theme (Half-Drow Darkmoon knight, son of Vicona DeVir of Baldurs Gate fame, champion to Elistraee and ambassador from the surface temple in Waterdeep to the Promenade of the Dark Maiden on the 3rd level of Undermountain. He carries a vial of perpetually moonlight holy water, that when poured into the Moonspring portal in the Promenade will link the two temples via the portal) and mechanically also designed to be effective no matter the rest meta (longer adventuring days, and shorter ones) and in plenty of situations. Good- excellent single target spike damage, top tier saves and AC, excellent face skills for the social pillar, AoE options, solid mobility, 13th level caster, decent spell options from 4 different classes, ritual casting, and party buffing.

First 10 levels are all Hexblade (3) and Paladin (7) so initially will be the Parties frontline tank (items are Mithril Elven Full Plate, and +1 Silver Greatsword 'The Moonsword'). GWM Paladin style.

Was tempted to take the final 10 levels in Bard or Sorcerer for 5th level spells, but elected to split them 5/5 for a bit of both worlds (metamagic and the skills/ bardic inspiration - sword flourishes).

[Maxilian]

This is where high level boss monsters immune to level 6 and below spells keep the paladin/sorcerer at range and watch him flounder.

Your dad can do things to shut down your damage entirely but now it's no fun for you!

How? Divine Smite is not a "spell" with a lvl, so such things does not affect it (resistance / Inmunity to certain damage type, does the trick though)

[Malifice]

How? Divine Smite is not a "spell" with a lvl, so such things does not affect it (resistance / Inmunity to certain damage type, does the trick though)

Keep him at range is the key (presuming mr Paladin Sorcerer is a 6/ 13 build so has only the single 7th level slot). Paladns are traditionally crappy at range.

Just how many monsters are immune to 6th level and lower spells in any event? Tiamat. Thats about it.

[Maxilian]

Keep him at range is the key (presuming mr Paladin Sorcerer is a 6/ 13 build so has only the single 7th level slot). Paladns are traditionally crappy at range.

Just how many monsters are immune to 6th level and lower spells in any event? Tiamat. Thats about it.

Good point.

I really missed the "range" part.

[zariel_paladin]

Both attacks would need to be critical hits with a great-sword, with max Strength and GWM toggled on (4d6+15 damage each hit), and you'd need to spam a 4th level slot on each hit with divine smite on an undead (12d8) and then you would need to roll max damage on each of your 24 seperate d8's, and the 8 seperate d6's.

1/400 of getting the natural 20's followed by factoring in 24*1/8 x 8*1/6.

You of course also need a target not resistant to any of the damage dealt, and to have the slots available.

You have about the same odds of winning the lottery. Probably actually better chances of winning the lottery.

quickened spell hold person guarantees crits

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: my DM says that following rules is important.