Is there a better system for me than 5e?

[Greywander]

To be quite honest, these could be fun...for a different game system entirely. But making these changes won't end up with anything that feels like 5e D&D at all.

I'm seconding this. I've used all three of these systems in various forms elsewhere (usually with spirits instead of gods for theurgy), and they've worked just fine - elsewhere. In D&D though? They just don't fit with how the system works.

I'd recommend looking at a bunch of non-D&D-based systems

I've looked into tweaking 5e to better suit the game I'd like to play, and been told that I should really just play a different system, that it's not really possible to bend 5e to do what I want it to do.

I think someone on these forums said it best: D&D 5e is everyone's second favorite system. If that's the case, I'm wondering what out there might be better suited for me.

I've bolded some of the words and phrases below, so that just skimming my (admittedly verbose) post will give you an idea of what I'm looking for.

(TL;DR, GURPS, but more streamlined?)

What I like about D&D 5e

At it's core, it's streamlined. Almost anything you do is a d20 roll plus your ability score modifier and maybe plus your proficiency bonus. The (dis)advantage rules offer a simple way of adjusting a roll for circumstantial benefits or penalties. Things move fairly quickly and you're rarely bogged down looking up rules unless you're using one of the more complex subsystems, like spellcasting.

Building a functional character is also easy. All you need are your ability scores and you are fully functional within the rules (you still need HP, which is derived from class, but it would be easy to set a starting HP value). Furthermore, ability scores cover a nice range of things your character might do, and building different characters with different ability scores will produce characters that actually feel and play differently. Layered on top of this are proficiencies, from skills and tools to weapons and armor, and saving throws. This adds deeper character customization without making it too complex to create a solid core for character building. Further customization then comes by layering the more complex subsystems of races, classes, feats, spells, and so on, but none of those are actually required (hence why many NPCs lack them).

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Bounded Accuracy. I like how low level monsters can still provide a challenge for high level characters, and conversely a low level party can, though cunning, luck, or sheer insanity, bring down a high level monster. I like that PCs don't explode in power like some sort of anime character. I like that the game doesn't need palette swaps of low level monsters just so a high level party has something to fight. I like that this makes things feel just a bit more realistic, and it helps maintain immersion. I like that your choices at character creation don't eventually become superseded by later build choices and remain important throughout your entire adventuring career. I like that low level abilities and features remain useful at high level play.

Lastly, I do appreciate that I can make small fluff changes to my character without requiring a mechanical effect. While my inner simulationist craves these sorts of minute details, it does make it easier to play the character you really want without needing to worry about being unoptimized.

To summarize, I would say it's the combination of a streamlined system that uses consistent mechanics that keeps the game running at a good pace, and a solid core character building system that offers a good balance between simplicity and depth, allowing more complex subsystems to be layered on top as the player desires. Bounded Accuracy is also nice.

What I don't like about D&D 5e

It's too combat focused. Between the three pillars (combat, exploration/puzzles, and social/RP), the exploration/puzzle pillar is probably my favorite. Ideally I'd like a system that can do all three well. 5e is capable of handling all of them, but it skews heavily toward combat. When I proposed homebrew that made spellcasters less combat-viable (but more exploration/puzzle-viable), I was told, "This sounds like it would be great in a different system, but not for D&D." (See the quotes at the top of the thread.)

Speaking of combat, one of the things I don't like is that HP and damage aren't affected by Bounded Accuracy. This leads to strange situations where a commoner can be murdered by a couple of cats, meanwhile the barbarian can walk away from a fall from max fall height only slightly bruised. It feels like characters are just a bit too squishy at 1st level, but get too resilient beyond 5th or so level. Attempting to homebrew a different HP progression runs into the problem that the damage progression expects the default HP progression, so toning down HP gains would lead to high level monsters/players doing way too much damage relative to their HP.

Another thing I don't care too much for is the class system. Now, there's nothing wrong with class-based systems, I just have a preference for classless systems. I like to be able to tinker, to mix, match, and combine features and abilities to find a new and interesting combination that works well together. I don't like that 5e imposes a level cap, putting a hard limit on what features can be mixed together. In one case, I was looking at building a doctor type of character, and settled on rogue for the base class, but it doesn't make sense for a doctor to know Thieves' Cant unless that's specifically part of his background. I'd rather have the freedom to piece together the features I want at my leisure.

Bounded Accuracy gets a bit wonky when going up to super-powered characters (i.e. ability scores up to 30, class levels beyond 20, proficiency bonus beyond +6). When they say "bounded" they really mean that it has to stay between a narrow set of values.

I'm not a fan of Vancian magic. I understand that it works well as a balancing mechanic, but it just feels too abstract and meta to me. In fact, it is perhaps the thread I started in the Homebrew section on redoing the magic system that led me to creating this one (this is where the quotes at the top of the thread came from, but they echo things I've heard in other homebrew threads I've created). Furthermore, since all magic works the same way, they all end up feeling too similar. The magical becomes mundane, and doesn't feel all that special. I also feel like, and this is going to sound like madness coming from someone who likes to optimize, that spellcasters generally get too many spells. I'd rather have fewer spells, but have those spells be more versatile in their application.

I'm not sure I actually like the d20 mechanic. Yes, I know I talked about this in the things I like about 5e, but that had more to do with being easy to understand, quick to execute, and consistent across many types of actions you could perform. I'm not sure that the d20 is the best die for the job, though. It swings too wildly from one end to the other, and even a normally incompetent character still has a 5% or so chance of doing something amazing (which actually sounds cool, but in practice it tends to just be silly). I've played with the idea of allowing players to choose between rolling 1d20 or 3d6; the former is equally likely to roll really well or really poorly, while the latter is much more likely to land somewhere in the middle. This would allow players to make tactical choices on how to roll a check. As things stand, in 5e there is no choice except to make the check in the first place. Once you've decided what you are doing, you no longer have any control over the outcome: you always roll the same d20 and add the same modifier.

I'll end my litany of complaints with a rather odd one: I can't for the life of me seem to get a good grasp on the economics of D&D 5e. Some items are really expensive, some are really cheap. I have no idea how much gold is an appropriate quest reward, or how much a bounty should be. It's like the game expects you not to question the fact that a skilled professional makes 2 gp a day while you can somehow get thousands of gp from a questgiver, or plunder a dungeon for as much or more gold in loot and still somehow not crash the economy. Seriously, I almost want to make a combined tabletop RPG/TBS, where you can use the TBS part to figure out how much a city should be producing, what their wealth level is, and how technology/magic might affect those things. Tech-trees n' hexes. Taxes and Townships, maybe?

What I'd like in an RPG

I'd like something that's fairly streamlined and doesn't get bogged down in the rules most of the time. While I do revel in a certain amount of complexity, the core gameplay should be relatively simple, with the complexity left for optional subsystems. It should be able to handle all three pillars reasonably well, and if it focuses on any one pillar I'd prefer the exploration/puzzle pillar.

I'd like a classless system with core character building rules that are robust without getting too complex. Once your core traits are defined, additional complexity and customization can be added at your own pace from a long list of features. Ideally, these features shouldn't focus on minutia, but instead grant some new and interesting ability that will fundamentally change the way you play (e.g. Pact of the Chain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar) rather than "+1 inch melee reach on Tuesdays").

I'd rather have character progression go wide (adding more abilities to your toolbox) rather than tall (get progressively better at something until you're basically a god). High power characters should still be able to be defeated by low power characters when appropriate tactics are deployed. Numbers matter more than levels, though a high level character would still be an intimidating challenge to a group of low level characters. Legitimate superheroes would be a little different, but an experienced adventurer is still only human (or elf, or dwarf, etc.).

I'd like to see combat be a little more deadly. Perhaps something like enough HP as a buffer to take two or three hits with no penalties, then you start rolling for injuries that degrade your performance until an attack is able to deal enough damage to knock you out or kill you.

Magic should be interesting and unique, and not common and mundane. There should be a reason not everyone is a spellcaster, be it risk, cost, or restrictions. The wizard should be the character who plans things ahead and has access to special tricks and tools that non-magic users don't have, but they require appropriate preparation. Someone who just spams fireballs isn't a wizard, they're a superhero (which is fine, too, but let's not pretend they are the same thing). Different kinds of magic users should work differently, in a manner that suits them thematically.

If possible, I'd like to see a dice mechanic (or other core resolution mechanic) that allows players to make tactical choices of some kind, instead of just rolling the dice and hoping for the best. I'd also like to see a better probability distribution. There's also the question of how the resolution mechanic is affected when you are "better" at something (e.g. if you have a higher skill), and I'm not sure if simply adding a modifier is better than, say, adding more dice, or increasing the size of the dice, or using a roll-under mechanic and decreasing the size of the dice, etc. I'm not really sure what I'm looking for here.

Verisimilitude. The mechanics should be consistent with the world in which they're supposed to be used. Don't let low level clerics create infinite food and water and then try to claim that famines or droughts happen, ever. Don't pretend that walls are an effective means of defense when every Harry Potter wannabe can turn invisible, fly, spiderclimb, teleport, and do many other things that handily bypass simple stone walls. Don't have magic items that literally break the economy by producing infinite resources, unless it is a legendary, one-of-a-kind artifact.

Could GURPS be the answer?

I've looked at GURPS before (4th edition, specifically), and I like the idea of it. I'm less sure about the execution.

The simple core for character building is a bit too simple. It's literally just four stats. All skills are either DEX (DX) or INT (IQ). This leads to situations such as, to be a good mage, you're better off putting a single skill rank in each spell and then pumping up your IQ to boost all your spells, which inadvertently also makes you a good doctor, negotiator, architect, etc. The psionics system seems to be a bit better.

On the other hand, the complex layering on top of the core is a bit too complex. There are hundreds of skills (which are all either DX or IQ). I kid you not, there is a Bicycling skill, between Bioengineering and Beam Weapons. This isn't even getting into the massive number of special traits, such as Extra Mouth, Nictitating Membrane, and Epilepsy. Now, this isn't all bad, in fact I actually like a lot about this. I feel like the skill system in particular needs to be organized into hierarchies, with a few broad skills at the top that then layer into more specific ones, probably requiring you to put a rank in the broader skill before you can put points into the more specific skill. Or something like that. Some of the traits seem like they should only exist as fluff, but I kinda do like seeing everything having an effect.

Each round in GURPS is only 1 second. If that sounds like it makes combat a grind, well... I've never actually played it, so I'm not sure, but it sounds that way to me, too.

So, I suppose all this just to say that I'm looking for something like GURPS, but more streamlined? Does such a thing exist? Or should I just start playing GURPS, and eventually create a homebrew of that instead of starting with D&D?

[jdolch]

Playing Mirrorshades/Trenchcoat Games in Shadowrun could be worth a look. It's a completely different setting than D&D and not as streamlined (more complex but also more thought out). I am just suggesting it because it has the Exploration/Puzzles/Dialogue/Subterfuge/Dark Corners/Spy Novel thing down pat.

[Greywander]

I've heard good things about Shadowrun, but haven't ever looked at it myself. Maybe it's time I did. Thanks for the suggestion.

[jdolch]

I am biased since that's the TTRPG i grew up with but yeah i like it a lot. If you want to give it a whirl, i can recommend the Runnerhub Living World Community. They also help you make a Character on their discord server.

If you just want to get a taste of the world first, SR has many very good novels. I started reading them as a kid, long before i even knew it was actually based on a game. Classically people start with the Secrets of Power Trilogy (https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Secrets_of_Power_Trilogy)


Just don't make the mistake of joining a Pink Mohawk game and expect anything but combat ;)

Shadowrun is traditionally run on a

"Black Trenchcoat- - - - Mirrorshades - - - - - - - - - - Pink Mohawk"

scale.

Tenchcoat is very subtle. Low profile, lots of legwork, information gathering, subterfuge style game. "Oceans Eleven", "Sneakers" and "Mission Impossible" comes to mind.

Mirror Shades is a mixture. Think "Matrix" (obviously that's where the name comes from). Stealthy until it gets loud. Also "Heat" and various "Bond"-Movies fit in here nicely.

Pink Mohawk is the opposite of Tenchcoat. No subtlety, very loud, lots of explosions, full on Street Warfare. 'Rule of Cool' reigns supreme. Any number of Over-the-Top Action Movies come to mind. e.g. "Dredd 3D" or "Mad Max: Fury Road"

[Scripten]

Mirror Shades is a mixture. Think "Matrix" (obviously that's where the name comes from). Stealthy until it gets loud. Also "Heat" and various "Bond"-Movies fit in here nicely.

I think the term actually comes from the book Neuromancer, by William Gibson, which was the novel that established the cyberpunk genre. I highly recommend reading it if you like the feel of Shadowrun and don't necessarily need the fantasy elements!

[jdolch]

I think the term actually comes from the book Neuromancer, by William Gibson, which was the novel that established the cyberpunk genre. I highly recommend reading it if you like the feel of Shadowrun and don't necessarily need the fantasy elements!

Thanks. Never got around to reading it. "Mona Lisa Overdrive" either. Or "Snowcrash". So much to read, so little time :)

But i am really waiting for the Cyberpunk 2077 Game by CD Project Red.

[clash]

Have you tried Call of Cthulhu?

It is exploration/Puzzle heavy and not as combat focused.
Taking damage and getting injuries has a big impact.
It is classless with a streamlined and not very swingy dice mechanic.
It is very low magic.

[jdolch]

Have you tried Call of Cthulhu?

It is exploration/Puzzle heavy and not as combat focused.
Taking damage and getting injuries has a big impact.
It is classless with a streamlined and not very swingy dice mechanic.
It is very low magic.

I love the Lovecraft stuff. That guy had some real Problems. Found a great Video about him:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmdzptbykzI

[Dark Schneider]

Really hard. Something not based on classes then should be based on skills or categories, so it can be barely not complex (at least not more than D&D 5E).

D&D has no need to be combat focused. It is a full role-playing game, with many skills that you maybe hear to be "useless", but because they are pretended to be used for other purposes.
You can have an adventure completely based on social, negotiation, research, trade, travelling, concluding by your actions and decisions instead a boss battle.
You have:
- Social skills.
- Lore skills.
- Other tools than thieves (musical instrument, crafting, herbalist...).
- Medicine.
- Investigation (for research purposes).
- Performance (to become popular and get influence).

Maybe you only need a bit of customization to the D&D 5E system. As you mention, maybe the rogue being the only one with specialization, on 4 skills!, and all the other nothing, could not fit for you and if we think about how the world works any character should have at least 1 specialization (your profession).
If you also want to show what we know as "hobbies", you could also introduce the half-proficiencies, this is, using 1 proficiency to set 2 half-proficiencies, and these grant half of the proficiency bonus. You could even check only half of the circle on the character sheet :)

What I also think you'd like are long-term characters, this is, play with the same character until the very end. Much more like Rolemaster works, with a 50 character levels scale and getting them much slower, but not having pieces of paper at low levels. The problem is that Rolemaster is very complex.

I am thinking, have you seen HARP? It is like a simplified version of RM:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Adventure_Role_Playing
http://ironcrown.com/harp/


HARP has Professions that determine which sets of skills are favoured or not, many also provide level bonuses to skills, spell spheres and/or talents. The Professions in HARP Revised are: Cleric, Fighter, Harper, Mage, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Thief, and Warrior Mage. Additional professions are found in other support books and include: Paladin, Beastmaster, Elementalist, Thaumaturge, Necromancer, Vivimancer, Adventurer, Mystic, Shadowblade, & Druid. HARP's Professions are designed to be flexible, with a single level progression chart allowing the player to build the character he or she wants from the base profession.

It was one of the systems we look at when moving from RM (as we have less time to play, we need something less complex), but finally got D&D 5E to try something different.


Flexible Character Creation
While HARP uses professions, races, and cultures as the basis for your character, those pieces don’t tie you to any hard and fast policies about who your character can be. HARP allows anyone to learn exotic weapons, wear armor, pick locks, sing songs, or even cast spells. The only limitation is the cost of these skills and abilities. In HARP every skill is either favored or not. If it is favored it costs 2 development points to gain 1 rank, otherwise it costs 4.

Exciting Combat with Critical Hits
Ever enter combat against five foes at once, and simply wonder how many rounds it will take until you hack your way through them all? Or maybe you’ve decided to use a special ability to dispatch them two or three at a time. Did you figure out the ideal tactic to wipe out every type of monster? And did you get bored soon after? With HARP it’s not about mastering the building of the most powerful character, it’s about experiencing the thrill of High Adventure. Enjoy the story that unfolds as your attack roll decides not only if you strike your opponent, but how much damage and what critical results occur as well. Combining speed, excitement, critical and open-ended dice rolls, HARP really brings combat to life.

Scaleable Spellcasting
In some systems, once you have learned how to cast a spell you move on to the next one. In HARP, you learn that sometimes learning a spell isn’t enough – you need to master it. By continuing to learn more about the spell it becomes easier and easier to cast… or you can go High Adventure and make the spell do more – more targets, more distance, more damage… Find out why not every fireball is the same as you scale your spells differently based upon the situation in which you find yourself.

In RM and also HARP, any character can die by a critical at any time. We love criticals! Each critical roll is...exciting.

Sounds interesting, right?

[Skyblaze]

Honestly, you probably could make a 5e campaign more attuned to puzzles and things of that sort but the fact is combat is just easier to create off the cuff.

You have to be pretty experienced with game mechanics to create a fun and challenging puzzle, but also one that is hard/complicated enough for the players to use their abilities to solve it. More so, you have to describe thoroughly the aspects of the puzzle for players to pick up on it, one part that is poorly described and players may not be able to accomplish it.

[saucerhead]

I have played Gurps for years and have only returned to D&D for the last six months. Gurps is a good system, and if you want classless character building it might be what you are looking for.

The combat is different and can be a bit slower. You have active defenses: someone rolls to hit you, you roll your defense. This can be sped up so that rounds don't go by with no one taking damage. You just make each attack a contest against the defenses, and if the attacker wins, you roll damage. That said, hit points in Gurps rarely go above 15, so faster combat can be deadly.

Magic is different, in you need to spend your precious points on spells you may never cast. Advanced magic has prerequisite spells and skills. You start with ignite fire, then create fire, then shape fire, eventually you get to fireball and after a couple more steps explosive fireball. All IQ based and hard skill levels, but to throw it, you need DEX and throwing skills. (Not to mention fatigue points for powering the spell)

Character building is pretty good. Most characters start at 100 points, as potential heroes, and your main skills are usually average successes, but all your secondary skills suck. 50-50 at best, unless you only know a limited number of skills. Players tend to take disadvantages to get extra points, for better skills or advantages, but disadvantages really effect gameplay. (I get 50 points for having only one eye? Yes, but all ranged attacks are now at minuses.) However, if you like to roleplay "over the top" you can make some mighty fun characters. Try not to be the alcoholic, pyromaniac, one leg berserker though.

I am actually enjoying the more defined party roles of D&D right now. Gurps seemed to have five guys that all wanted to be mages and were all poor spell casters and even worse fighters. It is a good system, I think groups need a change every now and then is all.

[ImproperJustice]

Everything you are looking for is in Savage Worlds.

Streamlined gameplay
Open character creation
Magic that has risk, and is reasonably balanced because it requires enough of an investment to balance it with martials.
Legendary characters can go down from a lucky shot by little Suzy with Daddy’s handgun.
Game encourages and rewards tactical thinking for the PCs.
Multiple settings available for play with interesting twists.
Combat is fast. Enemies are up, down, or off the table.
GM prep is amazingly light and easy.
Special rules for dramatic tasks, social conflicts, and chases that create great cinemeatic moments.

It is a highly refined and polished system, that I think will fit your needs.

[Shesheyan]

I would recommend Savage Worlds over GURPS. It's streamlined and easy to use. It is generic. There are many official settings you can use with the core book. A second edition will come out in 2019. But the first edition is very solid.

My experience with GURPS was hopeful at first but if you don't have a person who knows the system in the group making your first characters can be very time consuming as you have to read a truck load of skills and other characters features. It took us a good two hours to do a half-human detective with minor arcana powers. Don't get me wrong. The character was awesome and was exactly what the player wanted but the time it took to create was too long. I didn't want to spend another 1-2 hours per characters for the other 3 players.

[sophontteks]

5e isn't geared towards combat. It just has more rules for combat. Combat is a very strict proceedure with less room for the imagination, which makes it more restrictive where non-combat interactions are much more free-form harking back to the old-school rpgs where its up to a players creativity to solve problems.

You don't need lots of rules to make great and engaging non-combat encounters, and in 5e players do have some really fun abilities geared towards these encounters as well.

But that's just my 2-cents. There are certainly other systems available.

[Marywn]

Open Legend is soemthing I recently found. don't know really anything else

[KorvinStarmast]

I will suggest that you get this post moved to the parent forum, Roleplaying games, rather than the 5e forum. You might get more and better replies. (Your call) :smallsmile:

[Grod_The_Giant]

<cracks knuckles> Going a bit more obscure here, but... you want to look at the GUMSHOE (http://site.pelgranepress.com/index.php/gumshoe/)system. It's a fairly basic system that's designed specifically for being good at investigations. Otherwise, maybe look at Fate? It shines most for social stuff, but it's a pretty good robust rules-light system.

I'll also toot my own horn for my my homebrew system, STaRS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361270-STaRS-the-Simple-TAbletop-Roleplaying-System-5-0): it's simple, classless, fast, doesn't lean as heavily on narrative logic as something like Fate does, and has a simple conflict engine that works just as well for challenges like "find the bomb before it explodes" or "rescue people from the burning building" as it does for "punch it til it dies." Characters are mostly defined by 10 ability scores, with a handful of special powers and/or areas of expertise.


5e isn't geared towards combat.
Yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhh, but it is. If 90% of the rules are focused on "how to kill stuff," with everything else being handled by a rough guideline of "here's a skill list, roll high," you've got a combat-focused skill list. For a high-crunch counterexample, look at Exalted: sure, you've got detailed combat rules and piles of special combat abilities, but you've also got detailed rules and piles of special abilities for everything from "making friends at court" to "running a business" to "building Howl's Moving Castle."

[JellyPooga]

The One Ring may be just up your alley. It's everything you ask for in the OP. 'nuff said; check it out.

[Keko]

I have recently tried (and was quite satisfacted by it) The Dark Eye 5th ed.

The game is darker than dnd, based on northern medieval fantasy, with witches, fairies, demons and evil cultists...on the setting itself I can't say much since we played in a custom setting.

Combat itself is quite gritty and after starting with 30ish hp with my fighter-like character they don't improve much and you have limited access to healing. So playing smart is preferable.

I'm not gonna lie, at first you have some things to learn about the basic mechanics but after the first session I felt definitely more confident.

It's classless, and you have plenty of customization: at character creation you have 1100 points to spend, including ability scores (you have preset if you prefer, at a fixed price) advantages and disadvantages (that give you points instead of costing),skill points then general abilities, skill abilities and magic abilities (You buy spells like other class features). To create my first character it took a while but because I had to sort through all abilities for the first time. After you get to know more the game it should get a lot faster.

You can also buy premade packs based on backgrounds like soldier, merchant, noble, artisan etc. but are just the same points as buying the same skills and abilities one by one.

The main thing to remember are the caps: how much you can raise your ability scores at creation, how many skill ranks etc.

Interesting is the basic mechanic for skills, each tied to 3 ability scores: for example the climbing skill is tied to courage, agility and strength: let's say you have respectively 14, 12 and 12.
You roll 3d20s, one for each ability score (it's super easy if you use always the same three and use always red one for the fist ability, blue one for the second and green one for the third) and let's say you roll in order 6, 17 and 10: if you roll less than the ability the roll is passed but of you roll more you can adjust the roll with skill points
So in this case if you have 8 ranks in climb you can spend 5 to adjust the 17 rolled on agility to 12, with 3 points remaining unspent: the number of unspent skill points determines the level of success.
In this case it would be climbing faster for example.

Another interesting thing is that there are a lot of skills (like 50) but are divided into categories based on how much it costs to purchase ranks.
A abilities are mostly for flavor but should the need arise you can still be good at it without the dm handweaving it for you or having to buy them at a huge opportunity cost. They cost only 1 character creation point per rank and include ropes, artistic ability, law.

B skills are situational and cost 2 points per rank, for example climb or intimidation

C skills are generally useful and cost 3 points per rank, for example stealth, magical lore

D skills are the few best and cost 4 points per rank, for example perception and self control

Combat skills are the only ones tied to one ability score.

spells are skills like the others you have to purchase ranks in, and so are not auto-cast. You can modify the spells to improve your chances but they require far more time. Depending on the ranks remaining the spell has greater effect so the more ranks you have the more powerful it will feel, so no more low level slots becoming useless at higher levels.

Spells bring much less utility than in dnd and the limited amount of arcane energy (basically mana) of the casters makes mundane solutions preferable whenever possible

There are several conditions that go in steps, first of all pain. The less % hp you have the more steps of pain you have, but the enemies too! so that enemy with one hp remaining will be less deadly than a full hp one, and dealing damage without dropping the enemy feels much more useful.

Overall I really enjoyed it and I have concerns about dnd next very similars to yours so I hope it helps.

One last thing, the game is new (2017) but is growing definitely faster than next but the newest material is not yet available in english (the game is german)

[MaxWilson]

Could GURPS be the answer?

I've looked at GURPS before (4th edition, specifically), and I like the idea of it. I'm less sure about the execution.

The simple core for character building is a bit too simple. It's literally just four stats. All skills are either DEX (DX) or INT (IQ). This leads to situations such as, to be a good mage, you're better off putting a single skill rank in each spell and then pumping up your IQ to boost all your spells, which inadvertently also makes you a good doctor, negotiator, architect, etc. The psionics system seems to be a bit better.

On the other hand, the complex layering on top of the core is a bit too complex. There are hundreds of skills (which are all either DX or IQ). I kid you not, there is a Bicycling skill, between Bioengineering and Beam Weapons. This isn't even getting into the massive number of special traits, such as Extra Mouth, Nictitating Membrane, and Epilepsy. Now, this isn't all bad, in fact I actually like a lot about this. I feel like the skill system in particular needs to be organized into hierarchies, with a few broad skills at the top that then layer into more specific ones, probably requiring you to put a rank in the broader skill before you can put points into the more specific skill. Or something like that. Some of the traits seem like they should only exist as fluff, but I kinda do like seeing everything having an effect.

Each round in GURPS is only 1 second. If that sounds like it makes combat a grind, well... I've never actually played it, so I'm not sure, but it sounds that way to me, too.

So, I suppose all this just to say that I'm looking for something like GURPS, but more streamlined? Does such a thing exist? Or should I just start playing GURPS, and eventually create a homebrew of that instead of starting with D&D?

If you're going to play GURPS, and you're into simulationism, I recommend checking out GURPS: GULLIVER by T-Bone.

My experience with GURPS 4E is that the gameplay is great, but the character-building system is brittle and more trouble than it's worth. (E.g. all 50-point abilities are clearly not equivalent--you can destroy the world on a 50-point budget, and GURPS' mechanism for reigning that in is to have the DM fiat in Unusual Background prerequisites to adjust the cost ad hoc, which means you might as well just ignore the point buy aspects entirely.) GURPS is a pretty fun game system if you ignore advancement and point costs entirely--it certainly does support play at multiple levels (social, political, economic) although IMO the best part of the game is still GURPS: Martial Arts. If I wanted a game that was really about sociopolitical conflict or something I probably would pick up an indy game like Dogs in the Vineyard or DramaSystem or Sorcerer.

Bottom line: go ahead and check out GURPS, but I think at the end of the day you'll find that it does a better job than 5E at what you're looking for but still doesn't quite hit the spot.

[Theodoxus]

5e isn't geared towards combat.


Yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhh, but it is. If 90% of the rules are focused on "how to kill stuff," with everything else being handled by a rough guideline of "here's a skill list, roll high," you've got a combat-focused skill list. For a high-crunch counterexample, look at Exalted: sure, you've got detailed combat rules and piles of special combat abilities, but you've also got detailed rules and piles of special abilities for everything from "making friends at court" to "running a business" to "building Howl's Moving Castle."

Not to mention, outside of DM fiat, tell me how you level sans combat?

[GorogIrongut]

In order:
-Shadowrun. It's a phenomenal system that allows verisimilitude in a ridiculously balanced way. It also enables multi pillar play. My favourite aspect of the game is that it's creation system is so balanced. You pick and choose how you would like to make your character and go into minute detail, if you desire it, without overpowering other character types.
-Savage Worlds fits but I find it less interesting than Shadowrun. That's probably a personal bias.
-And out of left field, let me suggest.... Dread. A system so abstract that there are no stats. Just a character sheet with questions highlighting what your character would do in situations. And the almight Jenga Blocks. It's ridiculously fun and liberating. And it's name is appropriate. It's very able, when DM'd properly to get the heart racing.

[Laird]

I know it's an older system but you really should look into "World of Darkness."

There are no classes but there are backgrounds, the supernatural and magic are more a 'subclass' that everyone can have access too. Magic is exceptionally rare, everyone starts as a Human but can be changed depending on what happens in the story, which things they encounter and such. It's a d10 system where if you are an Intelligent character 3 points /5 points you roll 3d10 and count number of successes (in this case 8 or above, rerolling 10's and counting those as successes.) There are rules for combat but the rules are more geared towards exploration, mystery and NPC-PC Interactions. Quite a fun system, though I only played it a few times. (We had a large group and the GM was busy outside of games a lot of the time.)

The games we did play had minimal combat and mostly were about exploration and storytelling. (Combat was still fluid but ended much quicker.)

Cheers!

[Particle_Man]

You might like the pdq systems and Jaws of the Six Serpents is an example of it that I like.

[Knaight]

I'm going to fragment your posts into small pieces here, so:


I think someone on these forums said it best: D&D 5e is everyone's second favorite system. If that's the case, I'm wondering what out there might be better suited for me.
I assure you, 5e is nowhere near my second favorite system. Twentieth, maybe. Favorite edition of D&D, definitely (unless you count 13th Age). The bulk of the player base also has it as their favorite system, though the bulk of that subset also has it as their only system. D&D is very unique in a lot of ways, and that uniqueness often manifests as either really disliking the system or it being a favorite.


What I like about D&D 5e

At it's core, it's streamlined.

Things move fairly quickly

Building a functional character is also easy.

e a solid core for character building.

customization then comes by layering the more complex subsystems

Bounded Accuracy.

To summarize, I would say it's the combination of a streamlined system that uses consistent mechanics that keeps the game running at a good pace, and a solid core character building system that offers a good balance between simplicity and depth, allowing more complex subsystems to be layered on top as the player desires. Bounded Accuracy is also nice.
Everything you like about 5e is extremely common in rules medium-light RPGs. So far it looks like finding something you might like better is fairly easy, by which I mean there are giant piles of games that are likely just as well suited.


What I don't like about D&D 5e

too combat focused.

that HP and damage aren't affected by Bounded Accuracy.

the class system.

Vancian magic.

the d20 mechanic.
So, basically every distinguishing characteristic about the system? Yeah, finding something you like better than 5e should be child's play. If you really liked classes or vancian magic this would be difficult, as would you really liking dramatic HP and damage growth. Those are system identity rarely copied elsewhere. Disliking the lot of it though?

Let's just say that 5e isn't in any danger of being your second favorite system after you've learned a few more. At this point the only real way to kick it further down the list is to add something like "also I hate fantasy and want a hard science fiction system".


What I'd like in an RPG

I'd like something that's fairly streamlined and doesn't get bogged down in the rules most of the time. While I do revel in a certain amount of complexity, the core gameplay should be relatively simple, with the complexity left for optional subsystems. It should be able to handle all three pillars reasonably well, and if it focuses on any one pillar I'd prefer the exploration/puzzle pillar.

I'd like a classless system with core character building rules that are robust without getting too complex. Once your core traits are defined, additional complexity and customization can be added at your own pace from a long list of features. Ideally, these features shouldn't focus on minutia, but instead grant some new and interesting ability that will fundamentally change the way you play (e.g. Pact of the Chain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar) rather than "+1 inch melee reach on Tuesdays").

I'd rather have character progression go wide (adding more abilities to your toolbox) rather than tall (get progressively better at something until you're basically a god). High power characters should still be able to be defeated by low power characters when appropriate tactics are deployed. Numbers matter more than levels, though a high level character would still be an intimidating challenge to a group of low level characters. Legitimate superheroes would be a little different, but an experienced adventurer is still only human (or elf, or dwarf, etc.).

I'd like to see combat be a little more deadly. Perhaps something like enough HP as a buffer to take two or three hits with no penalties, then you start rolling for injuries that degrade your performance until an attack is able to deal enough damage to knock you out or kill you.

Magic should be interesting and unique, and not common and mundane. There should be a reason not everyone is a spellcaster, be it risk, cost, or restrictions. The wizard should be the character who plans things ahead and has access to special tricks and tools that non-magic users don't have, but they require appropriate preparation. Someone who just spams fireballs isn't a wizard, they're a superhero (which is fine, too, but let's not pretend they are the same thing). Different kinds of magic users should work differently, in a manner that suits them thematically.

If possible, I'd like to see a dice mechanic (or other core resolution mechanic) that allows players to make tactical choices of some kind, instead of just rolling the dice and hoping for the best. I'd also like to see a better probability distribution. There's also the question of how the resolution mechanic is affected when you are "better" at something (e.g. if you have a higher skill), and I'm not sure if simply adding a modifier is better than, say, adding more dice, or increasing the size of the dice, or using a roll-under mechanic and decreasing the size of the dice, etc. I'm not really sure what I'm looking for here.

Verisimilitude. The mechanics should be consistent with the world in which they're supposed to be used. Don't let low level clerics create infinite food and water and then try to claim that famines or droughts happen, ever. Don't pretend that walls are an effective means of defense when every Harry Potter wannabe can turn invisible, fly, spiderclimb, teleport, and do many other things that handily bypass simple stone walls. Don't have magic items that literally break the economy by producing infinite resources, unless it is a legendary, one-of-a-kind artifact.
There's a lot of options here, but in the interest of drastically different magic systems which handle fundamentally differently: Reign.

Reign has a more tactical die system, it has a very simple core (attributes) with a lot of optional complexity (skills, talents, skill specialization paths, martial paths, magical schools), individual characters stay at a human level, and it basically fits everything you want. The 2nd edition is also coming out relatively soonish, though it's a kickstarter project and that inherently calls "relatively soonish" into question.

On a somewhat different note, give Desolation a look. It doesn't fit all your requirements, but for more D&D style fantasy it fits better, and it's a good system. You'd have to do some houseruling to get magic to behave the way you want to, but all of your magic systems could easily exist within the broader mechanical framework, while also stylistically fitting with the sort of expectations it tries to engender.


So, I suppose all this just to say that I'm looking for something like GURPS, but more streamlined? Does such a thing exist? Or should I just start playing GURPS, and eventually create a homebrew of that instead of starting with D&D?
GURPS but more streamlined is basically exactly what Fudge is, in that a GURPS designer literally decided to make a more streamlined generic system. It's also one which has a strong culture of homebrew, so there's that.

[Laserlight]

What I like about 5e: I can easily find players and DMs. Also....no, that's pretty much it.

EABA, by Greg Porter/BTRC, looks promising. Think of it as a sort of light version of Champions/HERO System. If I had a group of gamers who were prepared to learn a new system and weren't caught up in ADHD, buying a new house, marital issues, erratic work schedules, or combinations of the above...

Savage World is widely known. I don't much care for card-draw initiative or for only having five skill ratings (d4 through d12) and those being flat instead of bell curve; however, I'm considering buying SW:Solomon Kane anyway. It's classless, you can build pretty much whatever you want, and it's quick and simple.

[Knaight]

Savage World is widely known. I don't much care for card-draw initiative or for only having five skill ratings (d4 through d12) and those being flat instead of bell curve; however, I'm considering buying SW:Solomon Kane anyway. It's classless, you can build pretty much whatever you want, and it's quick and simple.

Cortex is another step die system, and a more curved one (though if you look at how that flat system operates you get a surprising amount of curve like properties, because you're changing the length of the distribution and not just adding to it).

[2D8HP]

Have you tried Call of Cthulhu?

It is exploration/Puzzle heavy and not as combat focused.
Taking damage and getting injuries has a big impact.
It is classless with a streamlined and not very swingy dice mechanic.
It is very low magic.


I found Call of Cthullu very easy to "Keeper" (GM).
.
Let me link the quickstart rules for you. (https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/CoC/CHA23131%20Call%20of%20Cthulhu%207th%20Edition%20Q uick-Start%20Rules.pdf)

I'm also very partial to RuneQuest which is in the same "BRP" family of games as CoC and which I played in the 1980's.
There's a new edition that incorporates some Pendragon like rules (which is another favorite).

Here's a sample Free PDF of the "quickstart" rules (https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/RuneQuest/CHA4027%20-%20RuneQuest%20Quickstart.pdf).

Here's a pdf sample (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi2yMuqooTUAhVpz1QKHZrTAPAQFggfMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chaosium.com%2Fcontent%2FFree PDFs%2FBRP%2FCHA2021%2520-%2520Basic%2520RolePlaying%2520Quick-Start.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGmy2_JQrnYDUhYIyRJT3ghBDKF-Q)), of BRP, my "go-to" generic system.

And here's a Quick start Magic World PDF (https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/Magic%20World/Magic%20World%20Quickstart.pdf)

the rules of which I'm told are based on Stormbringer, another fine BRP game.

[iTreeby]

I feel like I'm late to the party but...

Blades in the Dark has so much going for it in line with what you want from a game. It has combat but combat that does not eclipse the other possible methods. The magic system feels extremely unique because any custom spells are made by the player and the DM almost equally.

It is absolutely possible to tweek the setting to be in line with your game play goals as the game is setting is created by all the players and the DM. Most of the setting is snippets that get expanded by the players. Everything that is explicately in the setting is rich and proactive of creativity.

The "class system" initially seems to exist but is actually limited to a few starting dots, default equipment and experience triggers. Experience triggers being the most important.
Even with one or zero dots the player can expend resources to at least temporarily reliably achieve a success with consequences.

The game is also rediculously cheep to get into and there's a fair amount of free fan content

[Skylivedk]

I made a similar thread a while ago, and I've since done some research.

For those in the know, how do the following stack up against DnD and each other?

13th Age
Chronicles of Darkness (the new World of Darkness)
EABA
The Dark Eye
Dungeon World

[8wGremlin]

https://www.wyrd-games.net/through-the-breach/

Through the Breach is a tabletop roleplaying game set in the world of Malifaux. The players take on the role of the Fated, men and women who have caught a brief glimpse of their destinies.

This destiny is created alongside the Fated during character creation, and it affects every aspect of the character's life, from the day they were born and into the future. As the game progresses, the destinies of the Fated entwine, creating a campaign with a finite end. With each session, the character's final fate grows ever closer, and in the end, it is up to them whether they embrace their destiny or attempt to cheat fate out of its prize.

Through the Breach uses cards instead of dice to resolve conflicts, and each character has a hand of cards they can use to alter their destinies, changing failure into success and defeat into victory. Characters shift fluidly from one profession to the next as they meet the challenges of Malifaux head-on, and even the most naive Academic might find herself becoming a lethal Gunslinger, hardened Pioneer, or power-mad Dabbler with the right twist of fate.

Try it it's good.

[Damon_Tor]

I really like the Chronicle system created for the A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying Game.

The system is basically evenly split between combat and intrigue, to the point where in most of the games I've played, guys who pour all of their resources into combat abilities will make themselves a massive liability.

There's a really neat system for building a noble house, a system that can be easily modified to simulate a primitive tribe, a criminal syndicate, a mercenary company, or any other organization you might want to have present in the world.

There's also a "warfare" system for managing armies in combat, but it's not very intuitive. I enjoy it, but I've never met anyone else who did.

It's an extremely low magic system. They released a supplement to expand on the magic system, but even using those features your use of magic is both very expensive in its costs and very subtle in its effects. This fits very well with the core setting (the "Game of Thrones" world) but it doesn't translate well into what many people are looking for in a pen and paper.

[Psikerlord]

I'd say shadowrun but it is crunch heavy and combat is not very fast really. Maybe savage worlds.

[Rynjin]

Allow me to be the 6th or 7th person to suggest Savage Worlds. It hits literally every checkbox you mentioned. It's easy to build a character, but has enough depth to provide nearly infinite variety in character archetypes depending on which sourcebook is in play.

I've gone multiple sessions without fighting a single combat in a few SW games...and that was in a fairly combat-heavy setting )a conversion of the Fallout series to Savage Worlds tabletop).

Combat, when it does break out, is fast and easy to adjudicate, and has a ton of options if you and your players look in the rules. Unlike 3.PF or 5e, or other d20 systems, you don't need to hyper invest in Feats and class features to be good at combat maneuvers like disarming or tripping an opponent. You just do it.

You can play pretty much any game imaginable using Savage Worlds. The BASE rulebook caters primarily to sword and sorcery or low magic urban fantasy (or no magic at all) games, with sourcebooks ranging from high powered epic action (Savage RIFTS) to Victorian era gothic fantasy (Rippers) and everything else you can think of.

The system is versatile, RELATIVELY well known in RPG circles (so easier to get a group to play with than some more unknown RPGs), easy to learn, with enough complexity to keep you coming back for more. I've played 3 games of Savage Worlds and run one; in one game I was buff nerd who punched things, shot lasers, and invented gadgets on the fly (McGyver is an AWESOME Edge) in a Fallout setting, in another I was a beefy British man who used the power of "Chinese Boxing" to harness his internal energy to cause mass destruction on a wide scale in a Weird West setting (Deadlands), and in a current one I'm a flame slinging Arson Investigator who joined a peacekeeping corps in a horrible post-apocalyptic semi-dystopia (Savage rifts) and every game and every character (even the two punch-ists, who in some systems would feel very similar to play in combat) felt unique and different from one another.

I cannot recommend Savage Worlds enough.

[lperkins2]

Shadowrun is a good choice, the complexity is mostly frontloaded and can be mitigated by electronic character sheet tools. I'm seriously considering doing something with Torg eternity, which ticks pretty much all the boxes you listed, but it's tied rather closely to its primary setting.

[Greywander]

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. I didn't expect to get this much of a response. It sounds like Fudge and Savage Worlds are the top recommendations, so I'll start with those. For the more obscure and more niche systems, I'm interested in looking at them, but alas, I only have so much free time, and learning a new system (let alone two) can be quite time consuming.


Have you tried Call of Cthulhu?
I haven't, but that's another one I'm interested in trying some day (although I guess there's more than one version of it? Like a d20 system and a... not-d20, IIRC). If I knew someone who wanted to play it, I'd certainly be down for it.


D&D has no need to be combat focused.
[...]
Maybe you only need a bit of customization to the D&D 5E system.
I've tried this, and the response was the quotes you see at the top of this thread. Good ideas for another system, but not for D&D. The thought of going back to the bad old days where wizards get to fire off one spell then spend the rest of combat cowering in a corner or plinking with a crossbow is understandably unpalatable. However, I've never seen anyone complain about a D&D character being essentially useless for intrigue, or having no trade skills, or being bad at investigation. People treat combat as the meat of D&D, and everything else is ancillary. Yes, you can run a political intrigue campaign in 5e, but the system is not balanced around it and it becomes very easy to create a character who will be useless for that campaign. But when it comes to homebrew, people only seem to care about whether the character is still combat-viable.


Bottom line: go ahead and check out GURPS, but I think at the end of the day you'll find that it does a better job than 5E at what you're looking for but still doesn't quite hit the spot.
I remember being super excited when I was first looking at GURPS. Looking at it again more recently, I'm surprised by how much I remember of a game I didn't actually play. From what I remember, the more I looked at it, the more I came to the same conclusion you did: it's close, oh so close, but it's just not quite what I'd like.


I know it's an older system but you really should look into "World of Darkness."
My sister and I are actually going to take a break from our 5e game to do a Vampire: The Masquerade one shot. She's played a lot of Vampire, so I thought I'd give it a try. It will be easier if only one of us has to learn the rules.


I assure you, 5e is nowhere near my second favorite system.
I'm sure the original quote I was referencing meant it as hyperbole, not that it's literally everyone's second favorite system. Everyone seems to have system(s) that they like more than 5e, but 5e is the system they can all agree to play.


So, basically every distinguishing characteristic about the system? Yeah, finding something you like better than 5e should be child's play. If you really liked classes or vancian magic this would be difficult, as would you really liking dramatic HP and damage growth. Those are system identity rarely copied elsewhere. Disliking the lot of it though?
I've actually never liked D&D. That's also part of the reason I posted this thread. 5e made a lot of changes that made it more appealing to me, but at it's core it's still D&D.


GURPS but more streamlined is basically exactly what Fudge is, in that a GURPS designer literally decided to make a more streamlined generic system. It's also one which has a strong culture of homebrew, so there's that.
I do like to homebrew. My initial feeling is that I'll like Fudge more than Savage Worlds, but I'll look at both of them. They'll probably be better for different styles of play.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! And keep them coming, I'm sure there are lots of other people reading this thread who are looking to branch out from 5e. I'll still be reading replies as well, but I think I have enough suggestions to keep me backlogged for a long time.

[Knaight]

I'm sure the original quote I was referencing meant it as hyperbole, not that it's literally everyone's second favorite system. Everyone seems to have system(s) that they like more than 5e, but 5e is the system they can all agree to play.
Yeah, it's not that either. Granted, I've only seen this whole unwillingness to try new systems thing at a distance.


I've actually never liked D&D. That's also part of the reason I posted this thread. 5e made a lot of changes that made it more appealing to me, but at it's core it's still D&D.
This statement would have been much more surprising if it had come before every distinguishing characteristic of D&D ended up in your list of negatives.

[Malifice]

So the OP likes DnD except for:

Its focus on combat, HP and how damage works, the class system, Vancian magic and the d20.

Isnt that kind of like saying 'I like golf other than the round ball, the fact it's played on grass, the holes are too small, and it's boring to watch and hard to play.'

Seriously OP, you've literally picked out the core elements of the system.

To answer your question, I'd look at Savage Worlds. It ticks all your boxes of 'wants', has none of the things you dont like (no HP, no focus on combat, no classes, power point based or at will magic depending on setting rules you use, and it uses an exploding dice next to an exploding wild dice to provide a bell curve of sorts

Plus it's quick start and is basically everything GURPS tries to be, in an infinitely more simple and condensed format.

Only issues for me with the game is the combat rules are totally out of kilter with the simplified rules for everything else. On one hand you have two combat skills (Shooting and Fighting) and they deal with eveything from punching someone to sword play to firing starship guns and bows. On the other hand you have dozens of crunchy combat options, rules for 3 round bursts, double taps, reload times, armor penetration, rapid fire, autofire, flanking, area ttacks and a gazzillion other fiddly combat options.

It kind of leaps from simplified fast furious and fun system, to some kind of weird simulationist crunch heavy game once initiative happens (well... once action cards are drawn).

[Pelle]

To answer your question, I'd look at Savage Worlds. [...]
Only issues for me with the game is the combat rules are totally out of kilter with the simplified rules for everything else. On one hand you have two combat skills (Shooting and Fighting) and they deal with eveything from punching someone to sword play to firing starship guns and bows. On the other hand you have dozens of crunchy combat options, rules for 3 round bursts, double taps, reload times, armor penetration, rapid fire, autofire, flanking, area ttacks and a gazzillion other fiddly combat options.

It kind of leaps from simplified fast furious and fun system, to some kind of weird simulationist crunch heavy game once initiative happens (well... once action cards are drawn).

Having previously found SW intriguing, I had the same impressions about the combat. It seems it really want to play as tactical miniature game, which was a little off-putting to me, and I haven't bothered to try it out yet. If combat is what you like about D&D, it might not be a bad switch.

I'll also add to the numerous suggestions for Call of Chtulhu and Fate. I guess prefered genre is going to affect the choice certainly.

[Malifice]

Having previously found SW intriguing, I had the same impressions about the combat. It seems it really want to play as tactical miniature game, which was a little off-putting to me, and I haven't bothered to try it out yet. If combat is what you like about D&D, it might not be a bad switch.

I'll also add to the numerous suggestions for Call of Chtulhu and Fate. I guess prefered genre is going to affect the choice certainly.

Its jarring the disconnect between the abstraction of literally every other element of the system and the hard sinulationist intracacies of the combat rules.

Ok system though.

[Sigreid]

Runequest was a really solid system when I played it. Percentile based is easy to follow. You can't increase your HP without increasing your stats, which is hard, and it was a really interesting and complex world. Oh, and magic was pretty unique with two different systems. One revolved around wizardry and knowing a few select spells while the other was all about binding spirits.

[MThurston]

Harn Master 3 is a great game. It is skill based. Harn World is what goes with it.

Harn is a small island with Humans (civil and barbarian), Elves, and Dwarves.

It is based on the middle ages. Very great Britain themed.

There is no HPs and no experience. A very real world kind of game. Magic is known but not casted in front of people.

It works well for any kind of game you want to run. Combat is very real feeling. Most people are knocked out then outright killed.

[Dark Schneider]

I've tried this, and the response was the quotes you see at the top of this thread. Good ideas for another system, but not for D&D. The thought of going back to the bad old days where wizards get to fire off one spell then spend the rest of combat cowering in a corner or plinking with a crossbow is understandably unpalatable. However, I've never seen anyone complain about a D&D character being essentially useless for intrigue, or having no trade skills, or being bad at investigation. People treat combat as the meat of D&D, and everything else is ancillary. Yes, you can run a political intrigue campaign in 5e, but the system is not balanced around it and it becomes very easy to create a character who will be useless for that campaign. But when it comes to homebrew, people only seem to care about whether the character is still combat-viable.

Looking at that, you should definitely check HARP (High Adventure Role Playing). Here is the Lite version, a legal free PDF for testing the game:
http://files.meetup.com/489087/3000L_HarpLite.pdf
All the books:
http://www.icewebring.com/ice-products/high-adventure-role-playing-harp/
The essential is the core book, the revised one. On the Lite version you can also see that there is much more than combat, there is even a Trade skill, and resistances are developed instead simply obtained, not all the healing is magical (the is a Healing skill that can be used to heal wounds), the talents are developed, instead acquired by class, and the game system is quite light.

For comparing, on my HARP book (I suppose is the revised one) there are 7 Influence skills, compared to the 3 on the Lite version.

You can even make characters that have nothing to do with combat, or any combat skill or resistances (usually used in combat), and live with a civilian-type character, solving puzzles and interacting with other people, with no problem. Can easily change any profession and customize the favored skills to get the type you like. Even typical classes doesn't impose you what or how to develop at all.

Then, the Martial Law, Monsters (if you want to put them into adventures, anyway monsters can be converted from other games also), College of Magics, Loot, and Hack & Slash are good companions.
Can get as cheap PDF:
https://www.rpgnow.com/browse/pub/461/Iron-Crown-Enterprises/subcategory/1361_4114/HARP--HARP-SF
But I can't find the Hack & Slash. Some material was released only as PDF, and shocked it is not listed to purchase.
The Folkways book also seems interesting, didn't noticed at past.

Anyway, you can try it for free with the Lite version, and get more if you like.

[Sception]

One thing to be aware of is that a lot of games that better fit your listed preferences will be harder to run than your typical D&D dungeon delve. Yes, D&D is combat focused and yes the the classes are conceptually restrictive, but those two things together mean that the GM can reasonably design combat focused encounters and be confident that the party will have a means of overcoming them and that all the players will get to participate meaningfully in doing so.

In a more freeform scenario? that's not so easy. Now, take any more free form, classless, non-combat-oriented game.
Maybe you were planning on creating a fun intrigue/mystery adventure with no combat at all now that you have the freedom to do so, and maybe your character makes that doctor they wanted to make. Only... what is the doctor going to do? There's no combat, no character gets physically injured, why does the party even need a doctor?

Of course, you're a good GM, so you'll taylor scenarios around your party's abilities. But since the game has no commitment towards a particular sort of scenario, and the free form character creation has no commitment to ensure a shared basic competence in any particular field across all characters, it's a lot harder to devise situations that incorporate the abilities of multiple party members at a time. You get less cooperation, and more "turn taking". Here's the crime scene investigation scene, so the investigator gets to play and everyone else spends time on their phone. Here's the fight scene, so the one combat guy gets to play and everyone else spends time on their phones. Here's the car chase, so the driver gets to play and everyone else spends time on their phones. etc etc.

Working out scenarios that call on the unique talents of all or at least most players at a time then becomes a lot trickier, and most of these more freeform games leave that challenge *almost entirely* to the GM, with extremely little guidance or structure. So you'll get a game like Changeling: the Lost which I absolutely love for its flavor and concept and tone and would drop near about anything on near about any day for the chance to play... but you'll never catch me trying to run that mess.


This is not to say that classless or open ended game systems are bad. The freedoms they offer are really appealing. just that they do inherently and unavoidably put a much larger burden on the GM, since you can't just trace out a dungeon layout onto some graph paper and drop in a selection of level-appropriate monsters to fight. The difference between a 'paint by numbers' page and a sheet of canvas. It's can be more rewarding, but it's a lot more work.


Anyway, as for specific suggestions, I'd echo both Call of C'thulhu and the one poster who said World of Darkness. Like, not any of the particular world of darkness subgames, not Vampire or Werewolf or Hunter or Mage or even my darling Changeling. Just World of Darkness, specifically "new World of Darkness", this book:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YFNP17R1L._SX368_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

the gimmick of nWoD was to have a core book for the basic rule mechanics along with basic rules for playing a regular person, and then each of the supernatural archetypes had their own selection of rules and supplements that layered on top of that. But for my money the best of the lot was just nWoD on its own, a streamlined, simple, and extremely thematically juicy game of regular humans struggling to understand and survive in a modern setting world of supernatural horrors they can barely comprehend. The various supernatural books hand out too many answers, they fill in the darkness with rather cliche details where simply not knowing was more compelling. nWoD on it's own works really well for a Call of C'thulhu style 'miscelaneous investigators in over their heads against a hostile supernatural world' campaign but without the sometimes distracting and obnoxious overhead of sanity points and meters and whatnot that tend to clutter actual CoC games.

Beyond that, GURPS or BESM can be good, but need a lot of GM prep work in pruning the available player options so that what's left fits into the desired tone and style of the campaign you're running.

[Throne12]

Check out " Open Legend "

[olskool]

Runequest has already been suggested but I don't see anyone suggesting to you Mythras by the Design Mechanism.

The Design Mechanism has some free downloads you can check out if you like. This system is based on an "evolved" Runequest/BRP platform using Percentile Dice as the resolution. It features a new initiative system using ACTIONS just as D&D5e, BUT those actions overlap during the round. Essentially, each participant takes one Action and resolves it until nobody has any actions left. Hit points are "fixed" and do not increase as you grow in power. This means that Master level (figuatively as there are NO Levels) characters can still be killed by a lucky hit. All skills are percentile based and Characteristics are scaled from 3 to 18 just like D&D.

Combat has Special Effects which can greatly change the course of combat. These could be considered as a type of FEAT, but they are available to anyone who rolls the appropriate level of success. Armor absorbs damage, parries are a thing, and weapons can be damaged.

There are 5 distinct types of magic but all are resolved using the same mechanics (roll under) with a percentile roll and POW cost (power is used to "fuel" all magic). You can "shape" Sorcery magic with special skills to increase a spell's range, duration, area of effect, potency, and even combine different spells to get new effects. Folk Magic covers minor spells (I combine it to Animism as one magic system handled by Shamen). Divine Magic covers Clerical type magic and is VERY Powerful. There is even "Mysticism" to cover magical abilities possessed by martial artists and other creatures with special abilities. Animism magic which represents Shamanism, Spirit Summoning/binding, and Astral Travel allows for the inclusion of otherworldly creatures in Mythras.

You can even mix Mythras with D&D5e (I have) and build a hybrid system. I'd check it out at The Design Mechanism.