What can't Cure Wounds fix?

[TheChangelingMC]

Started DM'ing my first game recently and it's going mostly well. Only problem I've got currently is my cleric. In session, they're absolutely fine, but we do text rp between the sessions and there in is the problem.

They're playing the typical Healer character, spending time at apothecaries or hospitals trying to help people, but they seem to think Cure Wounds can fix everything, which obviously doesn't make for very interesting rp when every injured NPC is instantly healed and the information they couldn't easily share is suddenly free for everyone.

I'm currently trying out the logic of healing magic having to be targeted, so 'invisible' injuries can't be easily healed (one NPC died of brain damage and the player got quite angry at me) but it doesn't seem to be working amazingly.

Has anyone else encountered situations like this and how did you get around them?

[Waterdeep Merch]

It's just what easily, cheaply available healing like that does to a world. It just needs to be taken to its logical conclusion- either the players are anomalies for being able to do this at all, or healing is so insanely prevalent that anyone, anywhere suffering from a serious malady for any extended period of time is a sign of extreme and malicious negligence given how easily it could be treated.

Imagine a real-world analogue, and how much of an impact such magical healing would have. If there were people running around who could restore you from death's door to your prime or end any ailment multiple times a day, you simply wouldn't see people stay unhealthy for more than a day, max.

Meanwhile, if there's only one or two such people, the world's population of critically injured and sick would make pilgrimages to them. They'd be treated with awe, reverence, and possibly fear and loathing, too.

[KorvinStarmast]

Started DM'ing my first game recently and it's going mostly well. Only problem I've got currently is my cleric. In session, they're absolutely fine, but we do text rp between the sessions and there in is the problem.

They're playing the typical Healer character, spending time at apothecaries or hospitals trying to help people, but they seem to think Cure Wounds can fix everything, which obviously doesn't make for very interesting rp when every injured NPC is instantly healed and the information they couldn't easily share is suddenly free for everyone.

I'm currently trying out the logic of healing magic having to be targeted, so 'invisible' injuries can't be easily healed (one NPC died of brain damage and the player got quite angry at me) but it doesn't seem to be working amazingly.

Has anyone else encountered situations like this and how did you get around them?
It can't cure diseases.
That takes Lesser Restoration, second level spell.
(Or Paladin lay on hands).
Can't cure paralysis: see above.
Brain damage? I'd suggest that you tell the player that brain damage requires greater restoration to cure.

Greater Restoration / 5th-level abjuration / Casting Time: 1 action / Range: Touch Components: V, S, M (diamond dust worth at least 100
gp, which the spell consumes) Duration: Instantaneous
You imbue a creature you touch with positive energy to undo a debilitating effect. You can reduce the target’s exhaustion level by one, or end one of the following effects on the target:
• One effect that charmed or petrified the target
• One curse, including the target’s attunement to a cursed magic item
• Any reduction to one of the target’s ability scores
• One effect reducing the target’s hit point maximum

[Wildarm]

Cure Wounds only helps with HP loss. Poison, Disease, exhaustion, lost limbs, mental illnesses, death, etc are not healed.

What HP Loss is depends on your DM. For example, when players recover health through hit dice, I usually fluff it as drawing upon your inner reserves, shaking off the horrors of the past couple hours, etc. A PC can be in mortal combat and still fully heal naturally with magic. It's only when a character suffers a critical injury and goes below 0 HP that I would describe any physical wounds.

For Cure Wounds you can fluff it that the magic helps heal and close that wound. The memory of the injury and physical trauma still remains so a person could be brought up to 1 HP and have no chance of straight up dying anymore. Further magic restores their mental and physical stamina to let them wade into life threatening situations again.

Higher HP totals just represent your physical and mental toughness and ability to shrug off things that might break a less seasoned individual.

The existence of magical healing breaks things in some worlds. In my world, I have countries that have a requirement of duty for any religion operating openly that they must provide healing free of charge to the public. Essentially free medicare. People injured in remote areas are often brought to major cities for healing. The opening of a church is often the seed of a new thriving town as people want to be near places where disease and injury can be dealt with quickly.

In the end you're the DM and if the players try to use magic to heal an illness or injury that you don't want them to, you can spin it whatever way you choose to say why it doesn't work. "The wounds were not just to his body but also his mind." "These injuries are beyond your ability to mend" "You call for divine power but none comes forth. Perhaps this souls time has come or your God has another plan" finally... "No you can't heal him because 'Plot'". Explain it to your players that there's a story you're trying to tell and magic doesn't(or shouldn't) solve every problem. If you're still having issues, just don't use injured people as a plot device.

[manyslayer]

Cure wounds fixes it point damage. That's it.

So, if the injured NPC is actually injured (a wagon ran them over or whatever) then a cure will fix some hit point damage.

In the case of the your brain damage example, I would be mad also if it was something like damage (i.e. hit points) because if Cure Wounds is going to work like that (not healing "invisible" damage) that is something someone that casts the spell should be aware of. It would, however make the Medicine skill more useful as you might have to diagnose that.

If the brain damage was more like a condition then Cure Wounds wouldn't do anything. If you treat it like a disease then it would be fixed by a Lesser Restoration (or Greater). More than that would probably require a Greater Restoration or Heal.

But if it is wounded NPCs let the cleric heal people. Its what a cleric is generally known for and it could be used, role-playing wise, to spread the word of is church.

[PhoenixPhyre]

My universe runs on the following principles:

Everyone has two related reserves of "soul energy" that their body can use for self-healing. One is can be applied fast but runs out fast (HP). The other is slower to mobilize but larger (HD), but also refills slower. Both require rest to replenish. As long as you have non-zero HP, your body heals major (non-cosmetic) injuries from that pool. Healing magic refills that HP pool.

If you take a significant enough injury that you run out of HP but the wound is not fatal (ie are stabilized), you can be left with disfiguring injuries that will not heal properly simply given a night's rest. Diseases and poisons attack the soul directly, preventing this healing process from working properly. I don't apply these lasting penalties to PCs, not because it's impossible, but because it's un-fun and annoying to play with.

Most people have very small reserves (1 HD, 4 HP)--any significant injury is enough to create lasting scars. Most poisons or diseases are difficult to overcome without help. PCs have more reserves as well as more energy (being "strong souls").

So healers mainly help with those that have suffered significant injuries, enough to KO them and leave lasting damage. Most use mundane medicine (herbs, splints, etc) to repair these injuries.

Yes, this means most people are limited-strength versions of Deadpool. It fits the aesthetic I'm going for, so...

[SirGraystone]

Some roleplay some suggestion:

- A patient that have nothing but keep coming back because he's hypochondriac
- Mother with a dead child who beg the cleric to bring him back to life since "God" can heal anything
- Drunk who got into a fight and once healed just go get drunk some more
- Someone who hear voice, and is sure it's a demon talking
- A man infested with Rot Grub (From Volo's guide I think)
- A patient infested with Yellow musk creeper that turn into a zombie and attack peoples
- A Woman who's been bitten by wild dog or wolves, that seem to heal normally but become a werewolves later

[Vogie]

I mean, you're running into the place where meatspace and Hit points converge. In the base game, they're not wrong.

By RAW, you're just as alive & well at 1 hit point as you are at 100. There is no direct correlation between hit points and damage.

You can certainly fluff it up during combat - "The Bandit's arrow soars through the air and finds an opening in your armor, sinking into the joint of your shoulder, you take 12 damage" - but that, by RAW, doesn't effect how you use that arm. Your strikes, outside of a natural crit of a vorpal sword or some PC or NPC feature, aren't going to be lopping off limbs or otherwise maiming the target.

There are called shots and wounds in the variants of all of the versions of DnD, certainly, but IIRC, they're not in the core game that Average Jo is going to play.

You can flesh out your worlds as you like, however. You could easily make the rules to include something like:

Cure Wounds is only the magical equivalent of Field Medicine, not a full ward of a specialists at a hospital.
Introduction of more conditions (broken arm, sprained ankle, concussion), increasing the value of things like restoration spells.
Bifurcate the Hit point values by reintroducing the "Bloodied" condition (You are bloodied when you have half or less health)
Creating lists or rules to add wound and maiming conditions into normal combat, such as a random wound table, or pairing a defined combat variable (such as crits or hits of higher than 3 over AC) with a defined wound progression (modeled off of exhaustion or Contagion)
Called shot mechanic, either required (all attacks are called) or opt-in (typically with some sort of give/take, like -2 to hit to stagger, or -5 to hit to blind)
Add a secondary health point value, like Sanity, or Willpower, that can be impacted as well

[Laird]

It seems like this comes down to how magic works in your world. Objectively let's look at what Cure Wounds states:

A creature you touch regains hit points equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.

At higher levels all it does is increase the hitpoints recovered by 1d8 per slot, very inefficient.

So we notice that they have to touch the creature, it's generalized and small enough that I would rule they need to touch the injury to heal. Sure let it fix broken legs, and superficial injuries. It can't cure internal ones unless they can touch the internal injuries (or know about them.) How do you know about internal injuries? With a medicine check!

The DC for the Medicine check will entirely be up to you, but I suggest making a list of common ailments to less common. Farmers sprain ankles all the time, labourers may have back problems. Cure Wounds is NOT a catchall.

We can also look to higher level spells as well. 3rd Level.
Lesser Restoration:
You touch a creature and can end either one disease or one condition afflicting it. The condition can be blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned. This would allow to cure certain other things provided you made the appropriate medicine check (it would be lower or made with advantage as most of these symptoms are obvious.)

Now let's keep climbing spell levels. 5th Level.
Greater Restoration:
You imbue a creature you touch with positive energy to undo a debilitating effect. You can reduce the target's exhaustion level by one, or end one of the following effects on the target:



One effect that charmed or petrified the target
One curse, including the target's attunement to a cursed magic item
Any reduction to one of the target's ability scores
One effect reducing the target's hit point maximum


Debilitating effects that affect scores include Broken Legs, Broken Arms, Smacked Skull, anything that affects the person but is not seperate from the body. (I would argue you can use this to restore fingers to the hand provided you successfully stotched the missing parts back on. This doesn't require that medicine check.

Now finally near the pinnacle of spellcasting we get to 7th Level.
Regenerate:
You touch a creature and stimulate its natural healing ability. The target regains 4d8 + 15 hit points. For the duration of the spell, the target regains 1 hit point at the start of each of its turns (10 hit points each minute).
The target's severed body members (fingers, legs, tails, and so on), if any, are restored after 2 minutes. If you have the severed part and hold it to the stump, the spell instantaneously causes the limb to knit to the stump.

It's not until 7th level that missing arms or legs or limbs can be regenerated magically from nothing, no stitches needed. That's some powerful magics and this would not require a medicine check (it's reaaaaly obvious, less so for internals but this regenerates a lot!)

Now at 9th Level, the Pinnacle of Magic we get two great spells. (Not wish sadly)
Mass Heal
A flood of healing energy flows from you into injured creatures around you. You restore up to 700 hit points, divided as you choose among any number of creatures that you can see within range. Creatures healed by this spell are also cured of all diseases and any effect making them blinded or deafened. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.

This spell still doesn't allow for regenerating lost limbs and still (I would argue) requires stitches and medicine checks to successfully stitch. Your Cleric is a healer but NOT a doctor unless they have Medicine.

The next spell is:
True Ressurection
You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points.
This spell closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all diseases, and lifts any curses affecting the creature when it died. The spell replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs.
The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature's name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you.


This is the grand daddy of all healing magic thwarting even death! It explicitly states the effects and only requires the user know a name, or has a tiny piece of the body. It restores EVERYTHING, so the prior spells that close wounds can't be healing catchalls and I would argue they ONLY allow restoring of Superficial (Read Visible) Wounds unless you are skilled in medicine. Ultimately it is up to you to decide but that player isn't Jesus with a 1st level spell.

[Jophiel]

The existence of magical healing breaks things in some worlds.
I've pondered how I'd want to work this in my world. I imagine PC clerics to be exceptional and most towns and villages have temples/churches/shrines with "priests" but not clerics. I picture them jointly being able to cast first level clerical magic as a 24-48hr ritual so they could cast Create Water given enough time or Cure Wounds on an injured person but probably couldn't save the life of someone grievously injured and dying. Larger towns and cities may have access to true clerical magic but would demand significant contributions and/or reserve it for people in their actual congregation. This could keep deities and religion relevant in a small town without making every farming injury insignificant or local disaster hand-waved away. It also would allow the PCs to be exceptional when they show up. I'll admit that I don't have all the wrinkles worked out yet.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've pondered how I'd want to work this in my world. I imagine PC clerics to be exceptional and most towns and villages have temples/churches/shrines with "priests" but not clerics.

On this side, I take full advantage of the fact that PCs and NPCs aren't the same. Most PC "clerics" are more like commoners with ritual caster or magic initiate: cleric. They have a few tricks they can use once or so per day, but that's it. And not all are healers. War clerics may know guidance/combat spells. Clerics of the storm god (who isn't so fond of mortals) wouldn't heal even if they could. Many aren't even that powerful--they can pray for a miracle, but those happen if/when/how the god feels like it. The leaders may have bigger tricks, but not necessarily more tricks.

On the flip side, I give my NPCs (and theoretically PCs, but they don't care) access to a set of communal rituals called "chants"--these rituals gain strength from massed voices repeating the same phrases over and over, and their effects only last while chanting. Major versions can have lasting effects, but they require (animal) sacrifice and a trained ritual leader. These effects are minor--make weeds more visible. Repel insects from cattle. A major one to strengthen all lambing ewes. One that slightly decreases friction so that oxen can drag things easier, etc. Most of the farmers spend their working lives continually chanting in pairs or teams, often in round so there's a continual chant going on.

[Calimehter]

Another way to think of it is that, since Cure Wounds *only* applies to HP damage, it can only be used to fix things that would otherwise be fixed by resting for one day (i.e. when you get all your HP back after a long rest).

The spell really only gives you two things that regular resting does not:

1 - It speeds the process up. Handy for time sensitive situations or if you think you will be taking even more damage in the immediate future. Adventurers will get a lot of value out of that, but ordinary townsfolk might not need or care enough about it to pay anything extra.

2. - It saves you from making death saves if you get dropped to 0HP. Very handy, but only if it happens when a cleric or other caster is very close on hand. Nobody is going to load Farmer Bob into a cart to take a trip for that one, as he will have either stabilized or died by the time he gets to town. Heck, by the book most NPCs don't even get death saves unless the DM has decided they are 'story critical'. :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, you're running into the place where meatspace and Hit points converge. In the base game, they're not wrong.
That's the essential problem, yeah-- until you decide how you want to resolve that duality, you're not going to be able to satisfactorily explain anything.

[JackPhoenix]

Lingering Injuries (DMG p.272) are great for this, because it lists some more serious injuries, and what's required to heal them. Any magical healing is sufficient for internal injuries, limp or festering wounds, Regenerate is needed for missing limbs, but even minor scars require level 6 or higher healing magic to remove.

[strangebloke]

Run "HP as luck."

Every living thing has a certain measure of luck, and as long as you have your luck, you can't die. But luck can, in a very tangible way, run out. Sooner or later that orc is going to hit you with an attack and it finally is going to have your name on it.

Then you die.

Sure, you also have physical toughness. Something like a bear doesn't have much luck, but can suck up blows like a champ anyway.

If you're a physically tough person (Barbarian with high CON) then each hit you take uses up less luck, since it probably wasn't going to be fatal anyway.

When a cleric heals you, they're interceding with their deity to ward you from an evil fate. People who have a lot of luck are people with greatly important fates, and therefore it takes greater intercession to avert their future bad fortune.

Temp HP can be a momentary boost of luck, the kind of invincibility borne of a moment of absolute confidence. An 'inspiring leader' is warping the world around him to let everyone share in his luck for a brief moment.

[Joe the Rat]

Lingering Injuries (DMG p.272) are great for this, because it lists some more serious injuries, and what's required to heal them. Any magical healing is sufficient for internal injuries, limp or festering wounds, Regenerate is needed for missing limbs, but even minor scars require level 6 or higher healing magic to remove.

This is good. If your player wants to angle up the whole physicker angle, give them something to treat. As everyone has noted, cure wounds cures wounds - injuries, lacerations, all that potentially bleeding out business. Wound healed, you're not going to die on us.

Doesn't do squat for broken bones, diseases, active poisons, any of the conditions not tied to being out of hit points, sprains, max hit point reductions, madness... the restoration spells do about 99% of that... or you could med roll all of the diagnostic and treatment angles.

[Keravath]

I'd argue that cure wounds and healing word can heal anything that could heal on its own. They just accelerate the process.

Lacerations, cuts, bruises, internal bleeding, broken bones, concussions, and so on should all be addressable by cure wounds since in most cases these conditions will heal on their own over time. Cure wounds hastens the process and makes sure that they heal correctly.

On the other hand, diseases, curses, blindness, deafness, paralysis of one or more limbs (in cases where it could not heal on its own), lost limbs, lost body parts ... anything that could not heal on its own ... would require more powerful magic.

Lay on hands
cure disease
remove curse
lesser restoration
greater restoration
heal
regeneration
revivify
raise dead
resurrection

All of this long list of spells and some I haven't mentioned are designed to cure the things that can't heal on their own. For example, cure wounds won't cure a disease though it might help keep someone alive by alleviating some of the physical symptoms for a while.

[Damon_Tor]

Started DM'ing my first game recently and it's going mostly well. Only problem I've got currently is my cleric. In session, they're absolutely fine, but we do text rp between the sessions and there in is the problem.

They're playing the typical Healer character, spending time at apothecaries or hospitals trying to help people, but they seem to think Cure Wounds can fix everything, which obviously doesn't make for very interesting rp when every injured NPC is instantly healed and the information they couldn't easily share is suddenly free for everyone.

I'm currently trying out the logic of healing magic having to be targeted, so 'invisible' injuries can't be easily healed (one NPC died of brain damage and the player got quite angry at me) but it doesn't seem to be working amazingly.

Has anyone else encountered situations like this and how did you get around them?

My personal threshold is, anything that COULD be healed naturally, with time, rest, and proper medical attention, can be healed by Cure Wounds. Blood loss, broken bones, torn ligaments, punctured lungs, things like that. But humans can't regrow limbs (or things like tongues or eyes) and certain kinds of brain damage are permanent: you need higher-level magic for those sorts of injuries.

[StevenPaul640]

What about this?
Cure wounds can fix flesh wounds, broken bones require a medicine check to set the break before applying cure wounds(if we're operating on the assumption that Cure Wounds speeds up the natural healing process)

Damage to nerves, such as brain damage and paralysis, as well as diseases, require a restoration spell

Lost limbs require regeneration

Death(obviously)requires resurrection of some kind

[Malifice]

HIV.

If you want to be safe from STI's, take a few levels in Paladin for disease immunity.

[Tanarii]

Anything that doesn't heal with a good nights rest isnt HP damage. So those things.

[JellyPooga]

Anything that doesn't heal with a good nights rest isnt HP damage. So those things.

Yeah. This. If a good nights rest won't heal it, neither will Cure Wounds. In that regard, Cure Wounds heals minor cuts, bruises, scrapes and burns, general fatigue (not levels of exhaustion) and to an extent, loss of of morale. Broken bones, severe trauma, internal injury, major burns, extreme fatigue/exhaustion, mental illness and disease are beyond the scope of Cure Wounds.

[Damon_Tor]

HIV.

If you want to be safe from STI's, take a few levels in Paladin for disease immunity.

Oath of Conquest, obviously.

[stoutstien]

Started DM'ing my first game recently and it's going mostly well. Only problem I've got currently is my cleric. In session, they're absolutely fine, but we do text rp between the sessions and there in is the problem.

They're playing the typical Healer character, spending time at apothecaries or hospitals trying to help people, but they seem to think Cure Wounds can fix everything, which obviously doesn't make for very interesting rp when every injured NPC is instantly healed and the information they couldn't easily share is suddenly free for everyone.

I'm currently trying out the logic of healing magic having to be targeted, so 'invisible' injuries can't be easily healed (one NPC died of brain damage and the player got quite angry at me) but it doesn't seem to be working amazingly.

Has anyone else encountered situations like this and how did you get around them?

Hurt feelings?
The way healing works we always feel weird in games so I always just rulecit heals the wounds but may get "phantom" pains. Unseen scars

[Rusvul]

The way I rule it, simple healing magic (like Cure Wounds) only heals things your body could heal with time--and it heals them as if your body had healed them. Arrow to the eye, but somehow survive? Assuming you can somehow remove the arrow, Cure Wounds will close the wound, but it's not bringing your eye back. If your hand is cut off, Cure Wounds will leave you with a scar-tissue covered stump. Deep sword cut across the chest? Cure Wounds will fix it, but you're gonna have a nasty scar.

In the aforementioned example of brain damage: that doesn't usually heal on its own, so I would rule Cure Wounds couldn't heal it. If you had a more powerful spell: Regeneration, maybe, or Heal--then you'd have a much better shot. A broken bone won't heal right unless it's set first--so if you set a break and then heal it, you're good, though to instantly fix serious breakages I might require a higher level spell slot. If it's really bad, you might need Regeneration or Heal.

In addition, Cure Wounds doesn't cure diseases, stop ongoing poisons, fix psychological trauma or mental illness, remove foreign objects from the body (like arrows or bullets), or heal someone who's already dead. Perhaps one of the aforementioned "injured NPCs" has a broken spine or is comatose: you can keep them alive, but you're not going to be fixing their spine or their brain anytime soon.

[Tvtyrant]

In my games Hit Points are actually a representation of exhaustion, and Cure spells just recover you from feeling drained. Healing actual wounds (I use a wound chart) takes lots of time or high level magic.

[Chaosmancer]

I don't disagree with most of this, but I will point out that I believe none of this really solves the situation I see come up.

Classic trope scene, caravan guard (or other) bleeding amongst the wreckage, barely whispers a last message to the party, then dies.

Except, Cure Wounds fixes that. They are bleeding from multiple injuries, blood loss and lacerations are fully in the realn of this spell. The only way around it would be to just prevent the spell from working ("Oh, his spleen was ruptured, the magic can't save him") but players can take umbrage with this approach, because they are a magical healer, literally gifted by the gods (if we are talking clerics and paladins) to heal injuries, especially those sustained on the battlefield. So, preventing them from doing that injures their concept and makes it feel like you're trying to block them from doing something you didn't expect.

Again, I agree there are things cure wounds can't heal. And I always want to add curses and diseases that are difficult to cure (especially if they are plot relevant) but unless you are getting very nitty gritty and your players realize they have never suffered a serious blow in combat, saving someone from combat injuries is what Cure Wounds does.

[JellyPooga]

I don't disagree with most of this, but I will point out that I believe none of this really solves the situation I see come up.

Classic trope scene, caravan guard (or other) bleeding amongst the wreckage, barely whispers a last message to the party, then dies.

Except, Cure Wounds fixes that. They are bleeding from multiple injuries, blood loss and lacerations are fully in the realn of this spell. The only way around it would be to just prevent the spell from working ("Oh, his spleen was ruptured, the magic can't save him") but players can take umbrage with this approach, because they are a magical healer, literally gifted by the gods (if we are talking clerics and paladins) to heal injuries, especially those sustained on the battlefield. So, preventing them from doing that injures their concept and makes it feel like you're trying to block them from doing something you didn't expect.

Again, I agree there are things cure wounds can't heal. And I always want to add curses and diseases that are difficult to cure (especially if they are plot relevant) but unless you are getting very nitty gritty and your players realize they have never suffered a serious blow in combat, saving someone from combat injuries is what Cure Wounds does.

If a player takes umbrage that an injury is too severe for Cure Wounds to heal, then they have misunderstood the limitations of the spell. It's a 1st leverrsl spell; it's not a cure-all or panacea, it cannot heal all ills or bring the dead back to life. It's a band-aid, not a fully equipped surgical ward. Yes, minor cutd and bruises can be healed by Cure Wounds, but major blood loss (aka: Exhaustion levels or permanently lowered HP) and severe trauma (missing limbs, etc.) are not this spells remit, even if cast from a higjer level slot.

[jiriku]

I'm currently trying out the logic of healing magic having to be targeted, so 'invisible' injuries can't be easily healed (one NPC died of brain damage and the player got quite angry at me) but it doesn't seem to be working amazingly.

Has anyone else encountered situations like this and how did you get around them?

I get where you're coming from. You had a plan, then the player employed an ability that you weren't too familiar with in a way that shattered your plan into itty bits. Reflexively, you said "no you can't do that (the reason being that I don't want you to do that)." There's a problem though. The spell didn't fail because it wasn't powerful enough. It failed because you didn't want it to succeed. The in-game reason for the failure was just something you invented after the fact to justify yourself.

This is bad storytelling. You can do better.

The trouble happened here because you created a challenge that thought was a hard challenge but it turned out to be a very easy challenge that the player could succeed at instantly and automatically, so your plans were shattered. Let the players shatter your plans. Reward them for using their abilities effectively by allowing their abilities to work as advertised. If you let yourself fall into the habit of nerfing even 1st-level spells in order to maintain control then hoo boy, you're gonna be unhappy when the higher level abilities come online.

At the same time, when the players blow up your plans, use it as an opportunity to improve your gaming mastery. You were stymied here because you didn't know how the game worked as well as the player did. Knowledge is power. Studying a bit, you'll find that certain monsters, spells, and magic weapons inflict damage that reduces maximum hit points, and that characters can die from exhaustion effects without taking any damage at all. You've also learned that diseases can't be cured with cure wounds (although hit point damage inflicted by diseases can be). These are ways to cripple or kill an NPC that cure wounds can't fix. Next time, use those tools.

And recognize that when you put a challenge in front of your players, you're inviting them to solve that challenge by any means that they can. They will usually do something that you didn't expect. Often that something results in them solving a challenge very effectively -- after all, that's what you invited them to do. If a particular challenge turns out to be a pushover, that's OK. Reward success, then make the next challenge bigger. Your players will love you for it.

[Chaosmancer]

If a player takes umbrage that an injury is too severe for Cure Wounds to heal, then they have misunderstood the limitations of the spell. It's a 1st leverrsl spell; it's not a cure-all or panacea, it cannot heal all ills or bring the dead back to life. It's a band-aid, not a fully equipped surgical ward. Yes, minor cutd and bruises can be healed by Cure Wounds, but major blood loss (aka: Exhaustion levels or permanently lowered HP) and severe trauma (missing limbs, etc.) are not this spells remit, even if cast from a higjer level slot.

Of course it can't heal everything or raise the dead.


But if the barbarian is dropped to death saves by a giant swinging an axe the size of a barn door, and is bleeding to death cure wounds not only saves their life but puts them back to a state where they can fight again.

So if the next day we come across a caravan guard with a spear in his gut and I'm told "his wounds are too severe" then my suspension of disbelief is getting threatened here.

Being struck full on by a giant's axe didn't cause "minor cuts and bruises" since the barbarian was literally dying from the wound.

I fully admit, the real world implications are staggering and a bit nonsensical, but going from RAW a player should have full expectations that someone who is dying from battlefield injuries, but not dead, can be saved by cure wounds, because that is quite literally what players use it to do.

[JellyPooga]

Of course it can't heal everything or raise the dead.


But if the barbarian is dropped to death saves by a giant swinging an axe the size of a barn door, and is bleeding to death cure wounds not only saves their life but puts them back to a state where they can fight again.

So if the next day we come across a caravan guard with a spear in his gut and I'm told "his wounds are too severe" then my suspension of disbelief is getting threatened here.

Being struck full on by a giant's axe didn't cause "minor cuts and bruises" since the barbarian was literally dying from the wound.

I fully admit, the real world implications are staggering and a bit nonsensical, but going from RAW a player should have full expectations that someone who is dying from battlefield injuries, but not dead, can be saved by cure wounds, because that is quite literally what players use it to do.

That Barbarian should (probably) also have been unconscious, while the dying caravan guard giving a final word of warning was not. The circumstances of these scenarios are different; the Barbarian is potentially mortally wounded by the giants axe, but a nat-20 on a Death Save puts him right back on his feet as well; he's not been lying in a pool of his own blood for minutes, possibly even hours, bleeding out and gasping his last. It's not "nerfing" Cure Wounds to say that it can't heal the caravan guard in this scenario; it's saying that Cure Wounds is insufficiently powerful to save that mans life. A character on 0hp is dying, yes, but that doesn't mean that all dying characters are necessarily on 0hp. In addition, one of these is a PC and the other is a plot device; neither player or GM should mistake one for the other. NPC's do not follow the same rules as PC's any more than a tree or table do. 5ed does not have the same "everything is treated the same" mindset that 3ed does.

[JackPhoenix]

Of course it can't heal everything or raise the dead.

But if the barbarian is dropped to death saves by a giant swinging an axe the size of a barn door, and is bleeding to death cure wounds not only saves their life but puts them back to a state where they can fight again.

So if the next day we come across a caravan guard with a spear in his gut and I'm told "his wounds are too severe" then my suspension of disbelief is getting threatened here.

Being struck full on by a giant's axe didn't cause "minor cuts and bruises" since the barbarian was literally dying from the wound.

I fully admit, the real world implications are staggering and a bit nonsensical, but going from RAW a player should have full expectations that someone who is dying from battlefield injuries, but not dead, can be saved by cure wounds, because that is quite literally what players use it to do.

NPCs don't get death saves in the first place. NPC at 0 hp is, as Kenshiro likes to say, already dead. Does the fact that different classes have different abilities also break your suspension of disbelief? If one character can have the ability to cast spells and the other to get so angry they can fight better, why can't this NPC have ability to talk for a while even after being technically dead?

[stoutstien]

Most dead is still slightly alive folks

[Tvtyrant]

I don't disagree with most of this, but I will point out that I believe none of this really solves the situation I see come up.

Classic trope scene, caravan guard (or other) bleeding amongst the wreckage, barely whispers a last message to the party, then dies.

Except, Cure Wounds fixes that. They are bleeding from multiple injuries, blood loss and lacerations are fully in the realn of this spell. The only way around it would be to just prevent the spell from working ("Oh, his spleen was ruptured, the magic can't save him") but players can take umbrage with this approach, because they are a magical healer, literally gifted by the gods (if we are talking clerics and paladins) to heal injuries, especially those sustained on the battlefield. So, preventing them from doing that injures their concept and makes it feel like you're trying to block them from doing something you didn't expect.

Again, I agree there are things cure wounds can't heal. And I always want to add curses and diseases that are difficult to cure (especially if they are plot relevant) but unless you are getting very nitty gritty and your players realize they have never suffered a serious blow in combat, saving someone from combat injuries is what Cure Wounds does.

See I house rule it so when you drop below 0 you roll on a wound chart, and those take multiple rests or regeneration to get rid of. A crit nakes you drop a level on the exhaustion chart.

A simple way would be to just move someone down the exhaustion chart when they get truly injured (by a crit or dropping below 0) so it can't just be shaken off. You can stop someone from bleeding out but they are still negatively effected.

[Tanarii]

If you have a problem with HPs and hit point healing spells being things healable in a single night, but 0 HPs leading to death (saves), one change might be to say that HP healing doesn't work at 0 HPs. Then require the normal spell to be upcast for no additional HP gain to work on 0 hp characters.

Off the top of my head, and obviously that makes the game far more deadly.

[LtPowers]

NPCs don't get death saves in the first place. NPC at 0 hp is, as Kenshiro likes to say, already dead. Does the fact that different classes have different abilities also break your suspension of disbelief? If one character can have the ability to cast spells and the other to get so angry they can fight better, why can't this NPC have ability to talk for a while even after being technically dead?

Pretty much this.

The caravan guard is already "dead" in game terms. He's kicked the bucket. He's pushing daisies. He's joined the choir invisible.

But since the caravan guard is a plot device, he has the ability to croak out one last warning before he breathes his last.

Sure, usually "dead" in game terms is the same as "dead" in the fiction, but it doesn't have to be always. That guard is barely conscious and isn't going to stand up and take an action. He's effectively at 0 HP even if he can still (barely) talk. And that means you can say he's beyond the reach of healing magic.


Powers &8^]

[Chaosmancer]

In addition, one of these is a PC and the other is a plot device; neither player or GM should mistake one for the other. NPC's do not follow the same rules as PC's any more than a tree or table do. 5ed does not have the same "everything is treated the same" mindset that 3ed does.

There are differences between NPCs and PCs, but should this be one? Is having a person mechanically dead but still able to talk because plot... Desirable?
wishI mean, if this is a common thing that healing works differently for adventurers than NPCs... Well, that applies to monsters as well but they use the same founndations of healing, and many items and abilities assume player healing as a base, so peasants wouldn't go to a cleric for healing, because that healing doesn't work on them the same way.

Unless that is a direct point of the campaign that players are unique beings, things get funky.



NPCs don't get death saves in the first place. NPC at 0 hp is, as Kenshiro likes to say, already dead. Does the fact that different classes have different abilities also break your suspension of disbelief? If one character can have the ability to cast spells and the other to get so angry they can fight better, why can't this NPC have ability to talk for a while even after being technically dead?

Is this really a defense you want to make? I mean, I don't think this is even close to being reasonable here.

Do different class abilities bother me? No. Why would they? I'm literally talking about using the same ability for the same purpose and having it fizzle for plot reasons. That is vastly different than different class abilities.

And if it makes some DM feel more fair to write that this particular guard had a rare special ability... Well, I can't stop them from doing it, but that's stretching the game a little too much IMO

[JellyPooga]

There are differences between NPCs and PCs, but should this be one? Is having a person mechanically dead but still able to talk because plot... Desirable?
Yes?

I mean, if this is a common thing that healing works differently for adventurers than NPCs... Well, that applies to monsters as well but they use the same founndations of healing, and many items and abilities assume player healing as a base, so peasants wouldn't go to a cleric for healing, because that healing doesn't work on them the same way.

Unless that is a direct point of the campaign that players are unique beings, things get funky.

None of this really follows. Sure, this one spell doesn't have the same effect on a recently downed adventurer as it does a slowly dying NPC, but that doesn't mean all magic works differently for PC's as it does NPC's. You can still have a consistent world where peasants visit the village Cleric to have their hurts mended; Cure Wounds is still only healing their HP, so no broken bones, diseases, etc. are being trivialised by 1st lvl Clerics and Druids.

[Chaosmancer]

Yes?

Honestly curious, why? What are we gaining?


None of this really follows. Sure, this one spell doesn't have the same effect on a recently downed adventurer as it does a slowly dying NPC, but that doesn't mean all magic works differently for PC's as it does NPC's. You can still have a consistent world where peasants visit the village Cleric to have their hurts mended; Cure Wounds is still only healing their HP, so no broken bones, diseases, etc. are being trivialised by 1st lvl Clerics and Druids.

It sort of does follow, because it seems that time matters more for the NPC than the PC. They can be dead and still moving and talking.

And again, just to make this clear I'm not talking about diseases or poisons or anything like that, those use different spells, I agree with that.

Maybe this will make more sense.

No one in universe goes to the representative of the gods to ask for divine power to heal their skinned knee. It would only be serious injuries, maybe only life threatening ones, the exact type we are talking about not working. And since we are just making up a timescale, the "minutes" it takes for Farmet Brown's sons to get him to the temple have already decided whether he is dead or not from the accident which left him a bloody mess.

And the players after a few instances of being told no are going to stop trying to save NPCs, because it seems they work by different rules. And that might lead to questions about the characters background. What did the acoylte doctor actually do if their healing magic can't save people from the edge of death? What did the soldier cleric do in the healing tents if a soldiers fate was decided before they got to them from the battlefield? Their entire concept as the magical healer comes under threat if suddenly they can only heal injuries that happened in the last few seconds unless it is one of the PCs.

And in exchange for that unbalancing, we have a DM who was able to recreate a dramatic death scene from a movie where the wounded soldier passes on the torch of duty.


Edit:

And on the flip side, we can gain interaction with the world. If the player can heal and save NPCs then they might run past a battle to heal a dying villager. Upon entering a village that was raided they may rush to heal as many as they can while everyone else goes to investigate.

They could play the role of a divine healer with the power to save lives.

[Tanarii]

Go back to hps healing 1hp per day, so they're clearly meaningful damage?

[PhoenixPhyre]

One way of conceptualizing this issue that helps me is the following:

* When reduced to 0 HP, all creatures have a chance to stabilize on their own. For PCs and "important" NPCs, this is abstracted as death saving throws. For most creatures, this possibility is ignored as either unimportant or as something covered by the looseness of the time abstraction. For this purpose, let's call those virtual Death Saves. How long these virtual ones take is a matter of fictional convenience and coherence, not a game-level issue.

* When someone falls to zero hit points and starts making (virtual) death saves, they're helpless to affect their own destiny by their own will. Conscious or not, they have no agency to control their death/life, barring a fantastic ability to ignore this (ie zealot barbarians). When dramatically appropriate, they may still be able to perceive/act in non-mechanical ways.

* When someone fails their last (virtual) death save, they are no longer recoverable--they've past the point of no return (cue Phantom of the Opera). Even though they might not be dead that instant (due to the loose time abstraction), they're no longer capable of being healed through normal means. In fiction, this might mean that they're so badly injured that they will die within seconds. Or it might mean that they're blown into a million fragments and were dead several seconds ago.

The soldier who gasps out a last message and dies, for me, fits this part. He's dead (game terms, meaning no longer a valid target for cure wounds), but he's not dead (fictional terms) for another few seconds. The only thing holding his spirit to his body is his own force of will; once his mission is accomplished (the message delivered), he surrenders his life. And I'd extend the same opportunity to creatures that make real death saves.

When has someone exhausted their chance for life? That's up to the fiction of the scenario and setting to decide. So a magical healer in my eyes has a large role, even if they can't save everyone. They can save those on the cusp, they can prevent lasting injuries (which for me happen to NPCs when they stabilize non-magically or otherwise when the fiction demands it), they can remove afflictions that otherwise would not heal normally (or would take a very long time), they can prevent such afflictions--the biggest killer in pre-modern warfare was disease, etc.

[Tanarii]

When has someone exhausted their chance for life? That's up to the fiction of the scenario and setting to decide. So a magical healer in my eyes has a large role, even if they can't save everyone. They can save those on the cusp, they can prevent lasting injuries (which for me happen to NPCs when they stabilize non-magically or otherwise when the fiction demands it), they can remove afflictions that otherwise would not heal normally (or would take a very long time), they can prevent such afflictions--the biggest killer in pre-modern warfare was disease, etc.
I like it. Saving the wounded soldier in the given example would be "sorry, he's beyond my ability" with Save the Dying or Cure Wounds, vs "anyone got 300gp in diamonds available" with Revivify?

[Keravath]

Just a few comments :)

1) Applying death saves to monsters or NPCs is completely at the DMs discretion. If they want it to happen, it happens. It is just convenient in battle to assume that the bad guys are out of the fight at 0.

MONSTERS AND DEATH
Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws. Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as
player characters.

2) Hit points include physical damage.

HIT POINTS (PHB 196)
Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck.

DESCRIBING THE EFFECTS OF DAMAGE (PHB 197)
Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit point maximum, you typically show no signs of injury. When you drop below half your hit point maximum, you show signs of wear, such as cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.

STABILIZING A CREATURE
The best way to save a creature with 0 hit points is to heal it.

You can use cure light wounds or healing word to heal PHYSICAL damage. This includes the possibly major injuries like "bleeding injury or other trauma".

3) You can cast healing spells on any creature. This can be NPCs or any other creature. They are affected in EXACTLY the same way as PCs. Magic does not treat different targets differently. Since any creature may not die at 0 hit points at the DMs discretion, NPCs and PCs can be treated identically.

CURE WOUNDS
"A creature you touch regains a number of hit points equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier"

DROPPING TO 0 HIT POINTS
When you drop to 0 hit points, you either die outright or fall unconscious, as explained in the following sections.

The options when a creature drops to 0 hit points are to die outright or fall unconscious. You can NOT have an NPC talking at 0 hit points, they have to have at least 1 since otherwise they would be unconscious.

Since cure wounds can be used to restore hit points from a creature ranging from 0 hit points and unconscious up to full hit points then cure wounds can clearly be used heal physical damage including deadly wounds that would potentially kill the creature involved. Cure wounds does NOT just affect the metaphysical aspects of hit points (luck, fatigue, skill in avoiding dangerous attacks).

In addition, cure wounds can clearly be used to aid NPCs.

However, cure wounds would not affect debilitating injuries that might prevent hit point restoration. In the case of an NPC with one hit point who passes along a message and then dies, it is quite possible that he has a physical wound that would require a much higher level of magic than cure wounds to fix. It can certainly work narratively and within the same set of rules applying to healing both PCs and NPCs.


4) Natural recuperation ONLY affects two things.

a) Effects that prevent you regaining hit points.
b) Advantage against saving throws for disease or poison.

RECUPERATING
You can use downtime between adventures to recover from a debilitating injury, disease, or poison. After three days of downtime spent recuperating, you can make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw.
On a successful save, you can choose one of the following results:
• End one effect on you that prevents you from regaining hit points.
• For the next 24 hours, gain advantage on saving throws against one disease or poison currently affecting you.

Debilitating injuries are ones that prevent hit point gain.

Anything else can be healed by magic or a long rest (remember this is D&D and not the real world). The DM is welcome to rule however they wish but unless broken bones are considered to be a debilitating injury that prevents hit points being regained then even these will be healed over a long rest in which hit points are fully restored. (I think this take on injuries is just to keep the game flowing smoothly, most players are uninterested and would not find it fun having to spend long periods of time recovering from some overly detailed allocation of broken bones and other possible injuries ... it is easier just to have most of the common injuries heal up magically).

[Rusvul]

I think the simplest way to get around this is with description. When a PC is on 0 hit points and dying, they're assumed to be badly hurt but largely intact. On the floor, covered in bruises, lying in a pool of their own blood, etc. In situations like that, Cure Wounds or Healing Word is sufficient to get them fighting again. If you describe the guard the same way you describe a downed PC--covered in bruises, lying in a pool of their own blood--and you don't let a PC fix them with Cure Wounds, your PCs probably won't like that. You've established that Cure Wounds can fix "bloody and battered" sometimes, so saying it can't fix "bloody and battered" all the time for no other reason than 'plot' feels railroad-y.

But if you describe your dying caravan guard as "slumped against the cart at an awkward angle, with her one remaining arm weakly trying to hold in her entrails" then... I don't think any PC would be surprised to find that she's past saving with low-level magic.

The important thing is consistency. If Cure Wounds can fix something some of the time, but not all of the time, there should be an in-universe reason for that. "PCs are explicitly unique in my setting" works just fine, if that's how your setting is. "She's visibly way more injured than a PC at 0 hit points" is also a perfectly valid--and very easy to use--in-universe reason.

[Chaosmancer]

One way of conceptualizing this issue that helps me is the following:

* When reduced to 0 HP, all creatures have a chance to stabilize on their own. For PCs and "important" NPCs, this is abstracted as death saving throws. For most creatures, this possibility is ignored as either unimportant or as something covered by the looseness of the time abstraction. For this purpose, let's call those virtual Death Saves. How long these virtual ones take is a matter of fictional convenience and coherence, not a game-level issue.

* When someone falls to zero hit points and starts making (virtual) death saves, they're helpless to affect their own destiny by their own will. Conscious or not, they have no agency to control their death/life, barring a fantastic ability to ignore this (ie zealot barbarians). When dramatically appropriate, they may still be able to perceive/act in non-mechanical ways.

* When someone fails their last (virtual) death save, they are no longer recoverable--they've past the point of no return (cue Phantom of the Opera). Even though they might not be dead that instant (due to the loose time abstraction), they're no longer capable of being healed through normal means. In fiction, this might mean that they're so badly injured that they will die within seconds. Or it might mean that they're blown into a million fragments and were dead several seconds ago.

The soldier who gasps out a last message and dies, for me, fits this part. He's dead (game terms, meaning no longer a valid target for cure wounds), but he's not dead (fictional terms) for another few seconds. The only thing holding his spirit to his body is his own force of will; once his mission is accomplished (the message delivered), he surrenders his life. And I'd extend the same opportunity to creatures that make real death saves.

When has someone exhausted their chance for life? That's up to the fiction of the scenario and setting to decide. So a magical healer in my eyes has a large role, even if they can't save everyone. They can save those on the cusp, they can prevent lasting injuries (which for me happen to NPCs when they stabilize non-magically or otherwise when the fiction demands it), they can remove afflictions that otherwise would not heal normally (or would take a very long time), they can prevent such afflictions--the biggest killer in pre-modern warfare was disease, etc.

So how are players to know who is "narratively dead"?

And what will you do if players decide to cast revivify on him? "Sorry, he's been dead, narratively, for over 15 minutes so you can't revive him"

Look, I get we as DMs need to balance narrative and mechanics and sometimes that isn't pretty, but if we start making up conditions like "narrative death" to prevent player actions, I have to start wondering what we are so scared might happen?

[Tvtyrant]

I agree with you, which is why I have dropping below 0 wound someone instead of kill them. Making capturing people or getting captured a set of weird side rules is narrative none-sense IMO, death comes by coup-de-grace.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So how are players to know who is "narratively dead"?

And what will you do if players decide to cast revivify on him? "Sorry, he's been dead, narratively, for over 15 minutes so you can't revive him"

Look, I get we as DMs need to balance narrative and mechanics and sometimes that isn't pretty, but if we start making up conditions like "narrative death" to prevent player actions, I have to start wondering what we are so scared might happen?

You've got it backwards. Mechanical death (past the point of no return) happens first. And the fiction controls. The DM does have to describe him as being beyond the reach of normal healing, but basic generosity says that the timer starts from when the DM describes him as dead, not when he takes the mortal wound. And I'd apply that to PCs as well.

[RSP]

Also keep in mind, the party will, in the vast majority of situations, reach 5th level sooner rather than later. Are you not going to include Speak with Dead as a spell option?

In general, Players will come up with ideas that the DM didn’t consider when planning. This happens all the time in D&D. My advice is to roll with it and let them have their fun. A DM who’s reaction to a good idea by a Player is to restrict the Player’s abilities isn’t adding to the fun of the group, and in some instances, is taking away from it.

Just my take on it though.

[Chaosmancer]

You've got it backwards. Mechanical death (past the point of no return) happens first. And the fiction controls. The DM does have to describe him as being beyond the reach of normal healing, but basic generosity says that the timer starts from when the DM describes him as dead, not when he takes the mortal wound. And I'd apply that to PCs as well.

I didn't have it backwards, you divided mechanically dead (which I called narratively dead since they are dead for sake of the narrative) from the commonly understood meaning of dead.

So they die, continue to act then die.

[Tvtyrant]

I didn't have it backwards, you divided mechanically dead (which I called narratively dead since they are dead for sake of the narrative) from the commonly understood meaning of dead.

So they die, continue to act then die.
You know what they say, if at first you don't succeed die die again.

[Chaosmancer]

You know what they say, if at first you don't succeed die die again.

LOL (since there isn't a like button)