Character has become intelligent undead spawn. Help?

[Falcon X]

Has anyone gone through this before?
One of my PCs, a Dragonborn Bard, was killed by a Fear Guard (Fifth Edition Foes, Necromancer Games). We are trying to figure out if the character is playable, and if so, what her stats and personality will be.
The player is very flexible and easygoing. She is fine with any stat or personality changes. I have some ideas of how she could stay with the party, but am open to other ideas too.

Relevant Monster Info:

CE Medium Undead - CR3
Create Spawn: Any Living creature slain by a fear guard has tactical disadvantage on its death saving throws. If it dies, it will rise again as a fear guard under the control of its killer 1d6 rounds later.
Incorporeal: A fear guard can move through solid objects and other creatures as if they were difficult terrain. It takes 1d10 force damage if it is still inside something solid at the end of its turn.
Flavor Text: Fear Guards embody the ultimate joining of evil and loyalty. They are summoned from some unknown place by evil wizards and clerics to guard prized possessions or valued locations, and they serve that duty with the unwavering singlemindedness and eternal patience of the undead.....
...Because of their ability to spawn additional Fear Guards under their control, a location guarded by a single fear guard can become more secure as time goes by, and grave robbers who fall to the fear guard's attacks join its ranks.

Preliminary conclusions:
A. Using precedence of Vampires, when the original Fear Guard is killed, the Spawn gains free will from the mother fear guard. This does not change the Spawn's core nature though.
B. Being incorporeal and detached from a physical body, the spirit no longer has hormones that give feeling to emotions. This could explain why the Fear Guard would be Chaotic Evil. Like a psychopath, they would feel no emotions about other people (though might maintain memories and the theory of their values from the previous life.)
C. Being that their core nature is to guard an item or location, it is doubtful that this nature will change after their creator dies.
D. The text infers that a guarded place gets better protection as more spawn are created. I conclude that all the spawn would be compelled to protect the same location even if the mother Fear Guard died. Otherwise, all adventurers would have to do is take out the one Fear Guard to get them all.
E. A Fear Guard is intelligent undead, and is therefore able to make intelligent decisions on what it is protecting the location/item from and how. In this way, the Fear Guard does not have to attack allies of the summoner, or extinguish flames, or other such things.

Questions:
1. Do my preliminary conclusions make sense?
- Especially with point D. Is it possible she would be able to pick what she guards, or make a Wis save to do so. Or would she necessarily guard what her creator was guarding, or unsummon back to wherever Fear Guards come from.
2. Would our bard keep it's bard levels and just acquire a new race?
- Would you do a level adjustment (explained by the shock of a new body), or have her keep all the levels.
- Do you have to be able to feel emotion in order to create art? Or would the Fear Guard just make a different kind of art?
3. Any other advice?

[Wildarm]

I would not allow a fear guard as a PC. Being able to spawn more fear guards is going to lead to trouble. Does the rest of the group want a chaotic evil undead spirit following them around? I would say a Fear Guard would not even want to stray away from where it was created which makes adventuring difficult.

I'd say slay it and get someone to cast raise dead to bring back their friend since the body is still there.

[lunaticfringe]

How do you figure it's Chaotic Evil? The flavor text leans hard towards lawful. She has free will meaning she isn't control by the progenitor monster. She isn't a person anymore, she is magical creature that sounds like it was created to perform specific tasks. Think of it like compulsions.

Ultimate expression of loyalty & she has nothing to guard, so she feels incomplete or wrong. This may cause her to bond with a party member instinctively. She is evil though so Murder & Destruction are how she protects. This isn't nice or caring, it's overbearing and controlling. She might attack other party members for simply disagreeing with her ward. She sneaks off to 'handle' things and quickly starts generating new spawn if left unchecked.

That's just how I picture it going down anyways. It really depends on the player but most often undead PCs become npcs for the simple reason most players don't really act out the transformation to my satisfaction. They just treat it like they got new powers and don't change or become Louis/Angel.

[PandaPhobia]

Has anyone gone through this before?
One of my PCs, a Dragonborn Bard, was killed by a Fear Guard (Fifth Edition Foes, Necromancer Games). We are trying to figure out if the character is playable, and if so, what her stats and personality will be.
The player is very flexible and easygoing. She is fine with any stat or personality changes. I have some ideas of how she could stay with the party, but am open to other ideas too.

Relevant Monster Info:


Preliminary conclusions:
A. Using precedence of Vampires, when the original Fear Guard is killed, the Spawn gains free will from the mother fear guard. This does not change the Spawn's core nature though.
B. Being incorporeal and detached from a physical body, the spirit no longer has hormones that give feeling to emotions. This could explain why the Fear Guard would be Chaotic Evil. Like a psychopath, they would feel no emotions about other people (though might maintain memories and the theory of their values from the previous life.)
C. Being that their core nature is to guard an item or location, it is doubtful that this nature will change after their creator dies.
D. The text infers that a guarded place gets better protection as more spawn are created. I conclude that all the spawn would be compelled to protect the same location even if the mother Fear Guard died. Otherwise, all adventurers would have to do is take out the one Fear Guard to get them all.
E. A Fear Guard is intelligent undead, and is therefore able to make intelligent decisions on what it is protecting the location/item from and how. In this way, the Fear Guard does not have to attack allies of the summoner, or extinguish flames, or other such things.



I have a PC that wanted to play an undead, so i let him play the Wretched race from Fat Goblin games (https://www.5esrd.com/races/3rd-party-publisher-races/fat-goblin-games/wretched/), and it worked out fine, so if you wanted to use that as a jumping off point for the stats, that would work pretty well.

As for the bars still having their emotions, it could be that their strong connections to the emotions of others through their music allows them to keep their emotions, albeit dependent on the emotions of others. For instance, if they go a while without playing to an audience, they start exhibiting more characteristics of the Fear Guard spawn.

[Ganymede]

The spectator, in Volo's, is similar to a fear guard in that it is an unnatural being used to guard an object or location. What is interesting about Spectators is that if they are ever freed from their service, they gain free will and can do as they wish. On the other hand, the lack of purpose means that spectators descend into madness.


Something similar might apply to fear guards. Maybe with the death of its creator, it fights to preserve itself then wanders about for something else to guard.

Definitely don't keep it as a PC, tho.

[JackPhoenix]

Generally, when that happens, the character will gain the stats of the monster (it's not a race) and is no longer playable until it gets True Resurrection or other magic powerful enough to break the undeath.

[Keravath]

Honestly, I would say it isn't playable if only because of the mission/task aspect. The creature is formed with one purpose - to protect the item or location or both that the original wizard specified. This continues to apply to successive generations of the creatures based on the text provided. The creature doesn't have free will. It has the one task. You can't have the creature follow you around if you carry the item since it will kill you to recover it. If the creature has the item it will just guard it and NOTHING else.

In addition, although it is indicated as intelligent, there is no element in the description that would imply that the creature retains any vestige of memory or any other aspect of their previous existence. They become a fear guard who specifically guards something.

Finally, from a balance perspective, the creature has resistances, high natural AC, 30' fly speed, several special abilities and a vulnerability to sunlight ... if combined with PC class levels you are probably looking at something that would be quite OP in comparison to standard characters. This could probably all be managed with some DM rulings but the role play aspect is pretty much not possible due to the fundamental nature of the creature.

[mucat]

Preliminary conclusions:
...
B. Being incorporeal and detached from a physical body, the spirit no longer has hormones that give feeling to emotions. This could explain why the Fear Guard would be Chaotic Evil. Like a psychopath, they would feel no emotions about other people (though might maintain memories and the theory of their values from the previous life.)
...
You might want to rethink that conclusion. In a fantasy setting, the spirit or soul are real things, not just descriptions of biochemical functions. In the same way the bard can still think even without physical neurons, she can still feel emotion without physical glands or dopamine receptors. (If this is not true in your setting, then a lot of classic ghost stories will need rewriting. Ghosts are portrayed as all about sorrow, regret, anger, fear, or stubborn determination.)

The bard's status as an evil undead might magnify her negative emotions and blunt her positive ones, but I would still leave her enough memories and residual connections to those she loved in life, to create all kinds of internal conflict for her.

Has it been established yet in your game what the original fear guard was guarding? If the players don't yet know the answer, then you can still change it. Maybe it was guarding something portable, which the characters have reason to take with them. The bard, as the only surviving spawn of that fear guard, may have inherited the geas to guard the item...but perhaps she can interpret that duty liberally enough to accompany the party and guard the McGuffin from their enemies. This would work especially well if, for one reason or another, the item is in more danger in its current location than it would be with the party.

Of course, if the party's ultimate task is to destroy the item, then they may eventually have to throw down against their former comrade. If they want to launch a melodramatic "Fight it! I know you're in there somewhere!" scene, let 'em ham it up. It's a classic trope for a reason...

[Falcon X]

Thanks everyone for responses, and feel free to keep them coming. Indeed I am considering it not being a PC and having it attack the party. It would be some salt on some wounds, but might make for some good roleplaying. However, it as a PC would be par for the course for us and our insane game.
Also, my party will DEFINITELY try the "power of friendship" route to try to make her remember who she is. Maybe after she kills another of the PCs (Muahahaha).


How do you figure it's Chaotic Evil? The flavor text leans hard towards lawful. She has free will meaning she isn't control by the progenitor monster. She isn't a person anymore, she is magical creature that sounds like it was created to perform specific tasks. Think of it like compulsions. Because the book says it is CE. I am thinking that in this case it is taking Law vs. Chaos as governmental/societal laws rather than a personal code of ethics. This is the old Gygaxian way of looking at alignment.
In this way, the chaotic part is that the Fear Guard cares about no laws or other people so long as the thing it is protecting is protected. It will burn the world for its protection.


Ultimate expression of loyalty & she has nothing to guard, so she feels incomplete or wrong. This may cause her to bond with a party member instinctively. She is evil though so Murder & Destruction are how she protects. This isn't nice or caring, it's overbearing and controlling. She might attack other party members for simply disagreeing with her ward. She sneaks off to 'handle' things and quickly starts generating new spawn if left unchecked. I do like this kind of idea and would fit well with our party dynamic. I will think on it.


As for the bars still having their emotions, it could be that their strong connections to the emotions of others through their music allows them to keep their emotions, albeit dependent on the emotions of others. For instance, if they go a while without playing to an audience, they start exhibiting more characteristics of the Fear Guard spawn. Another strong recommendation that the player would love. I think if we do decide to have it a PC, I will allow some form of this.
An anime-style "power of friendship" situation would jive well with our party.


Finally, from a balance perspective, the creature has resistances, high natural AC, 30' fly speed, several special abilities and a vulnerability to sunlight ... if combined with PC class levels you are probably looking at something that would be quite OP in comparison to standard characters. This could probably all be managed with some DM rulings but the role play aspect is pretty much not possible due to the fundamental nature of the creature. Honestly, I'm not worried about OP at this point. You should see the other players. (A sprite and possessor spirit are already PCs)
I also would expect them to find a new body for her soon enough. So no worries.


You might want to rethink that conclusion. In a fantasy setting, the spirit or soul are real things, not just descriptions of biochemical functions. In the same way the bard can still think even without physical neurons, she can still feel emotion without physical glands or dopamine receptors. (If this is not true in your setting, then a lot of classic ghost stories will need rewriting. Ghosts are portrayed as all about sorrow, regret, anger, fear, or stubborn determination.)

The bard's status as an evil undead might magnify her negative emotions and blunt her positive ones, but I would still leave her enough memories and residual connections to those she loved in life, to create all kinds of internal conflict for her. Yeah, my explanation of hormones was largely to create a reason for the personality shift, but you make a good case and would likely follow the trends we have going.
However, the character has already dealt with lots of madness that have amped her emotions to crazy places. Dulled emotions might be the preferred this time, for the sake of variety.


Has it been established yet in your game what the original fear guard was guarding? If the players don't yet know the answer, then you can still change it. Maybe it was guarding something portable, which the characters have reason to take with them. The bard, as the only surviving spawn of that fear guard, may have inherited the geas to guard the item...but perhaps she can interpret that duty liberally enough to accompany the party and guard the McGuffin from their enemies. This would work especially well if, for one reason or another, the item is in more danger in its current location than it would be with the party. The original Fear Guard was summoned fairly recently and it hasn't been explicit. It could be either:
A. The Floating Castle they are on
B. The Eye of Vecna the summoner was wearing.
C. The person who holds the eye
D. The castle's owner
E. Some other magic item in the castle

If the character were to be able to travel with the party, I have about 3 ideas:
1. Protecting whoever holds the Eye of Vecna
2. Protecting the Castle. HOWEVER, the owner of the castle has a flawless self-destruct command. He could threaten to destroy the castle if the Fear Guard doesn't go with the party.
3. She isn't bound to protect the thing her creator was bound to and instead binds to something from her former life, such as one of the other PCs.

Any thoughts on those?


Of course, if the party's ultimate task is to destroy the item, then they may eventually have to throw down against their former comrade. If they want to launch a melodramatic "Fight it! I know you're in there somewhere!" scene, let 'em ham it up. It's a classic trope for a reason... Oh yes. My players will eat this kind of garbage up. I'd love to allow something like this to go down.

For those who want the current run-down (Minor Hoard of the Dragon Queen spoilers):
We are playing Out of the Abyss. However, we are on Skyreach Castle from Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Unfortunately, it has been taken over by undead because a character from our previous game 3 years ago (Hoard of the Dragon Queen) found the Eye of Vecna and popped it into her head and took over the castle. We had stopped that game before this point, but the player and I talked about what she would have done. 3 years later, my players are seeing the results of their failures in our previous game. Yes, they are okay with it and like it :)
All 5 Dragonwings on the castle were turned into various intelligent undead (Fext, Fear Guard, Red Jester, Blue Arcanian, Red Arcanian) and the dragon was brought back as a zombie dragon. In the current game, the 5 set a trap for the PCs in the Dragon cave and it was a very epic fight. The bard died by Fear Guard, and here we are.
The Vampire and the Cloud Giant are still on the castle.

Our party consists of:
A Sprite Paladin - I have allowed him magic that can turn him into a medium character for the sake of fighting. He also has the Deathless template from 3.5 because he is Risen Martyr (bestowed by Garl Glittergold).

A Possessor Devil Warlock - Well, he WAS a disebodied spirit who signed contracts with people for their bodies, until one of our other characters asked Garl Glittergold to give him a mortal body (WITHOUT the Devil's permission). Now he is a half-gnome mortal.

Alchemist Lizard-Person - Homebrew lizard and the Dawnforged Alchemist. Basically is Randall from Monster's Inc. Also has a lab that she can access by drawing a door on any flat surface (Like Pan's Labyrinth).

Dragonborn Bard - Who has been taking the brunt of madness effects from Out of the Abyss due to terrible wisdom saves. So far the most naturally Neutral Good party member.

Human Wizard - Basically the Mad Hatter. His spellbook is the inside of his hat. He is also immortal in a similar manner to The Nameless One (Planescape Torment) and was originally a Viking from our 12th century who drunk from the Holy Grail. It's.... a long story involving time travel, Dispater, and Kanye West.
If you want to know more, I can always do storytime, though it is a long and twisted tale.

[ATHATH]

I think that you should make it bound to whoever is currently in possession of the eye. Provided that the players can quickly pry the eye out of the summoner's corpse before the fear guard stops them, they should be able to gain its loyalty (albeit only to the person who has the eye, and it might be a wee bit overprotective (although not TOO overprotective, since the summoner presumably tuned the protectiveness of their fear guard(s) such that they can still risk their own life without being tackled, restrained, and put in a padded cell for their own "protection" by their own fear guard(s))).

Let the player play as the fear guard, but delevel their character by 3 levels to represent "trading in" 3 (Bard) levels for the powers of a CR 3 creature.

You can probably retcon the (typical) alignment of fear guards to be whatever you want it to be, especially since fear guards come from a homebrew source that you're modifying the game to add in already.

[Falcon X]

I think that you should make it bound to whoever is currently in possession of the eye. Provided that the players can quickly pry the eye out of the summoner's corpse before the fear guard stops them, they should be able to gain its loyalty (albeit only to the person who has the eye, and it might be a wee bit overprotective (although not TOO overprotective, since the summoner presumably tuned the protectiveness of their fear guard(s) such that they can still risk their own life without being tackled, restrained, and put in a padded cell for their own "protection" by their own fear guard(s))).

Let the player play as the fear guard, but delevel their character by 3 levels to represent "trading in" 3 (Bard) levels for the powers of a CR 3 creature.

You can probably retcon the (typical) alignment of fear guards to be whatever you want it to be, especially since fear guards come from a homebrew source that you're modifying the game to add in already.
I like your thinking as a whole. And I would probably delevel it's bardic ability like that in one way or another.

Biggest hangup on protecting the holder of the eye is that they already did pry it from "Lady Vecna's" bloody skull. Indeed, she was quite exploded by a ballistae (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JulJxOIfPYo). The summoner had likely commanded the Fear Guard to watch her abode from the outside, but didn't account for invisible, passing-without-a-trace enemies.
In the epic fight that followed, the Fear Guard did nothing to protect the new holder of the Eye, even though they were right beside each other in the fight. Thus, in in-game consistency, this would be a bit of a stretch.
Though, the wording could be "whomever is ATTUNED to the eye" and it might work, cause he wasn't attuned (and gods forbid that paladin ever would be).

[ATHATH]

I like your thinking as a whole. And I would probably delevel it's bardic ability like that in one way or another.

Biggest hangup on protecting the holder of the eye is that they already did pry it from "Lady Vecna's" bloody skull. Indeed, she was quite exploded by a ballistae (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JulJxOIfPYo). The summoner had likely commanded the Fear Guard to watch her abode from the outside, but didn't account for invisible, passing-without-a-trace enemies.
In the epic fight that followed, the Fear Guard did nothing to protect the new holder of the Eye, even though they were right beside each other in the fight. Thus, in in-game consistency, this would be a bit of a stretch.
Though, the wording could be "whomever is ATTUNED to the eye" and it might work, cause he wasn't attuned (and gods forbid that paladin ever would be).
Yeah, attunement should work.

But that raises the question of why the fear guard participated in the battle after it had nothing to protect (other than the corpse, I guess (can corpses remain attuned to items?))... Maybe it just wanted to alleviate its boredom by actually fighting something for once instead of standing guard for all eternity? Maybe it wanted friends (in the form of spawn)? Maybe it figured that the party might mutilate the corpse more/further? Maybe it was just bloodthirsty?