Shadowcraft Mage and Fortify Spell

[Kalkra]

I know that the usual trick is for ScMs to use Residual Magic to heighten their spells up to 10th level with Earth Spell, but it seems to me that you would often be better served heightening it normally and using Residual Magic with Fortify Spell to make any target need an SR of 12 trillion in order to resist it. I suppose it depends on your play style, but for me it seems like SR: Yes is often the main problem when playing ScMs.

[ATHATH]

I forget- wouldn't that make the spell use the save DC of a low-level spell, or does the save DC of the spell become the save DC of the level of the spell that you turn your illusion spell into (and if so, would it even retain the anti-SR bonuses from Fortify Spell?)?

[Kalkra]

Not quite sure what you're asking, but as understand it the DC is based on how much it's been heightened, and SR depends on how much it's been fortified. If an ScM were to cast Silent Image fortified by one level, then he next round he can cast Silent Image again, this time fortified by 6 trillion levels. In addition to that, he might also want to heighten that spell by however many levels, based on what spell he wants to mimic.

[Doctor Awkward]

Fortify Spell does nothing but grant an additional +2 to caster level checks against a creature's spell resistance for each level you heighten it beyond the original level. Just like preparing low level spells in high level slots, for all purposes the spell is still considered a spell of it's original level. A 1st-level Magic Missile Fortified to 4th level is still considered a first level spell for things like globe of invulnerability. You simply gain a +6 bonus to your CL check to beat SR.

So a silent image Fortified to 5th-level would still be a 1st-level spell for all purposes, and a Shadowcraft thus would only be able to use it to mimic other 1st-level effects.

It is the specific sentence in Heighten which says, "All effects dependent on spell level", that allows an ScM to use Heighten silent image to duplicate spells of the level it is raised to, because "all effects" includes his class feature which modifies spells of the figment subschool.

[Kalkra]

My point was that you could Heighten the spell normally, mimic whatever relatively low-level spell you want, and Fortify it to negate the SR.

[ATHATH]

My point was that you could Heighten the spell normally, mimic whatever relatively low-level spell you want, and Fortify it to negate the SR.
You're trying to heighten Silent Image, then fortify the spell that you're mimicking with it/Shadowcraft Mage?

[gkathellar]

Assuming that's what was meant, it opens up a whole can of worms and is an extremely questionable reading. Shadow Illusion specifically mentions Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, and both of those spells are silent on the topic of mimicking metamagic. Shadow Evocation says, "cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell," and strictly speaking something like Maximized Fireball isn't a discrete spell, so that's a strike against it.

I wouldn't allow it, mostly because the ScM doesn't need even more flexibility, but also because it opens up weird questions about whether you can apply feats you don't actually have. Better to skip the discussion entirely.

Also, what even is this recent notion that the ScM is uniquely vulnerable to spell resistance? They have exactly as many tools for circumventing it as any other wizard does. Hell, if it comes down to it, orb spells are conjuration (creation), folks.

[Doctor Awkward]

Also, what even is this recent notion that the ScM is uniquely vulnerable to spell resistance? They have exactly as many tools for circumventing it as any other wizard does. Hell, if it comes down to it, orb spells are conjuration (creation), folks.

While it's true they have the normal tools, the orb trick does not apply.

The Shadow Illusion class feature states that the mimicked spell is subject to the same rules as shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, which both state that they are subject to spell resistance even if the spell they are duplicating normally isn't.

[gkathellar]

While it's true they have the normal tools, the orb trick does not apply.

The Shadow Illusion class feature states that the mimicked spell is subject to the same rules as shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, which both state that they are subject to spell resistance even if the spell they are duplicating normally isn't.

Ah, okay, overlooked that. That explains the reaction, although I still think it's pretty overblown.

[Ruethgar]

Shadow Illusion specifically mentions Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, and both of those spells are silent on the topic of mimicking metamagic. Shadow Evocation says, "cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell," and strictly speaking something like Maximized Fireball isn't a discrete spell, so that's a strike against it.


This just brought up a question. Metamagic spells aren’t distinct spells, but most templated spells are. So could Shadow Evocation for example mimic an Elemalific Vampiric Fireball without the feats or material cost? Or perhaps a Shadow Conjuration War Summon Monster II without the time or material costs?

Edit: As to combining Heighten and Fortify, it seems like you could do both simultaneously without cumulative detriment apart from the +1 minimum from Fortify, but it seems like a stretch to be able to apply it neigh infinitly without more significant spell slot cheese.

[Anthrowhale]

Notes that Earth Spell boosts your effective caster level reducing the need for fortify spell.

[Kalkra]

This just brought up a question. Metamagic spells aren’t distinct spells, but most templated spells are. So could Shadow Evocation for example mimic an Elemalific Vampiric Fireball without the feats or material cost? Or perhaps a Shadow Conjuration War Summon Monster II without the time or material costs?

Edit: As to combining Heighten and Fortify, it seems like you could do both simultaneously without cumulative detriment apart from the +1 minimum from Fortify, but it seems like a stretch to be able to apply it neigh infinitly without more significant spell slot cheese.

I was under the impression that templated spells are only on your spell list if you have the feats, although I could be wrong about that. Whether or not you're able to mimic a templated spell with a Shadow Miracle is dicier. You may need to research them first, in which case you'd still need the feat.

Also, Residual Magic should be able to get you nigh infinite Fortify. No further cheese required. (Although if you do that, you can't use Residual Magic for Heighten Spell, but you can use your spell slot cheese on that.)

[Quertus]

Assuming that's what was meant, it opens up a whole can of worms and is an extremely questionable reading. Shadow Illusion specifically mentions Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, and both of those spells are silent on the topic of mimicking metamagic. Shadow Evocation says, "cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell," and strictly speaking something like Maximized Fireball isn't a discrete spell, so that's a strike against it.

I wouldn't allow it, mostly because the ScM doesn't need even more flexibility, but also because it opens up weird questions about whether you can apply feats you don't actually have. Better to skip the discussion entirely.

Also, what even is this recent notion that the ScM is uniquely vulnerable to spell resistance? They have exactly as many tools for circumventing it as any other wizard does. Hell, if it comes down to it, orb spells are conjuration (creation), folks.


This just brought up a question. Metamagic spells aren’t distinct spells, but most templated spells are. So could Shadow Evocation for example mimic an Elemalific Vampiric Fireball without the feats or material cost? Or perhaps a Shadow Conjuration War Summon Monster II without the time or material costs?

Edit: As to combining Heighten and Fortify, it seems like you could do both simultaneously without cumulative detriment apart from the +1 minimum from Fortify, but it seems like a stretch to be able to apply it neigh infinitly without more significant spell slot cheese.


I was under the impression that templated spells are only on your spell list if you have the feats, although I could be wrong about that. Whether or not you're able to mimic a templated spell with a Shadow Miracle is dicier. You may need to research them first, in which case you'd still need the feat.

Also, Residual Magic should be able to get you nigh infinite Fortify. No further cheese required. (Although if you do that, you can't use Residual Magic for Heighten Spell, but you can use your spell slot cheese on that.)

You do not need Chain Spell to cast or learn Mass Suggestion etc, so I don't see why knowing the metamagics would ever be a prerequisite for researching or emulating metamagic versions of spells.

[gkathellar]

You do not need Chain Spell to cast or learn Mass Suggestion etc, so I don't see why knowing the metamagics would ever be a prerequisite for researching or emulating metamagic versions of spells.

There are three arguments to be made here.
RAW: "x looks just like y would look" is a reasonable proof of x = y in math, but less so in legalistic rules interpretations. While Mass Suggestion does resemble Chained Suggestion (aside from being slightly better on account of its higher save DC and base level), they are not in fact the same spell. If your DM lets you research or emulate a spell that is functionally "x but with metagmagic," that's cool, but it's also house rules and thus beyond the scope of a discussion of RAW.
Balance: The Killer Gnome does not need and should not have the ability to apply, on the fly, feats that it does not have to two entire schools of magic. This is a build that completely ignores the disadvantages of being a specialist caster and can cast pretty much spontaneously for two whole schools, and when it does so those spells are abnormally strong. This is in addition to being, you know, a wizard. It does not need anyone doing it any favors.
Fairness: Metamagic feats are an investment. They come at an opportunity cost and grant abilities that are distinctive. If you simply allow people to whip up metamagic-ed versions of spells on command without investing in those feats, then what's the point of taking the feat? Hell, since higher-level spells are stronger, you're not just letting them have the feat for free - you're letting them have the feat + several levels of Heighten Spell. That's not fair to players who invest in the feats in question.
If you don't find any of those statements compelling, it seems perfectly reasonable to allow Shadow Evocation/Conjuration to fake whatever metamagic you like.

[Ruethgar]

It should also be noted that the shadows are limited by the spell list, and metamagic spells never appear on the spell list(just imagine how painful a Sorc would be). Just went back and checked the other templates and it seems War is the exception in how it is learned and could still be applicable, while Elemalific, Invigorating, Bloodleech and their kin all seem to be applied as spontaneous metamagic with mainly material rather than level costs.