Forgotten Realms - is there an 'anti-gods' group anywhere?

[Uncumber]

Firstly, first post here, so hey everybody!

Ok, so basically, my friends and I have only recently started playing D&D, and sheesh, we are completely hooked.

I've loosely followed D&D in general since the release of Baldur's Gate, whenever that was, so I know a little about the lore and things, but by no stretch a lot.

Kind of a weird question, but I'm interested in this for backstories and general lore 'stuff'... What I'm wondering is - is there a group or faction somewhere (preferably in the Forgotten Realms, as that's where we set our games) - that are 'anti' the Gods? What I mean by that is - perhaps they don't want their fate decided by higher beings, or perhaps they don't believe the Gods are that powerful, or perhaps they all just blindly hate the Gods for one reason or another. I'm sure there could be a lot of reasons, what I'm trying to get at is that I'm not looking for an 'atheist' group (as.. I think that sounds pretty crazy, as the Gods do exist), simply one that is against not for the Gods in general.

I think I remember in Planescape there was a faction that believed that the Gods weren't all that, although I could definitely be mistaken. I'm just wondering if there's anything even resembling that in the Forgotten Realms!

If there's no faction/group like I've described, then fair dos! I'm honestly just wondering, I've tried googling around but haven't found anything useful.

Thanks for reading!

[Gastronomie]

The Aboleths are an example of a faction that's against the gods' rule. I believe there was some notes about an Aboleth kingdom near Neverwinter, in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting book (4e).

Apart from that, some demonic cults might be anti-god.

[ImproperJustice]

There was such a group, but I can’t recall anything about them since they were wiped from existence....

J/k :)


Although that does seem like a hard sell in Faerun.

[Chaosvii7]

The Aboleths are an example of a faction that's against the gods' rule. I believe there was some notes about an Aboleth kingdom near Neverwinter, in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting book (4e).

Lords of Madness in 3.5 gave them a pantheon of elder evils that they worshipped - not explicitly gods, but powerful otherworldly entities. I don't know if it's actual holy worship or just servitude, but since their beings are tangible (and just not present) they probably have a holier-than-thou attitude about how they approach divinity and cosmic beings like gods.

There's a faction of collected nonbelievers of gods, known as the Faithless, but both WoTC and most Realms enthusiasts tend to...disregard their existence. Namely because a piece of what little lore was dedicated to them was the existence of a wall made of the souls of dead faithless made by a god out of spite for them not worshipping deities. (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless) People are turned off by the idea that all you get for not following gods is to be turned into a metaphorical brick when they die, but I argue that this could be fuel for the fire. Imagine the wall as some sort of covetous treasure; A power source that someone with a willingness to travel to the Fugue Plane and extract the souls of those encased in it could use to perform extraordinary feats or miracles, or a source of endless undead (I'm getting flashbacks to fighting the Demon Wall in Final Fantasy 4 just thinking about that one). Perhaps the wall is actually a barrier for someone or something that could be weaponized to one's benefit, or perhaps it contains something not divine but capable of killing a god, the very thing dangerous enough for someone to lock it away. Or maybe they just want to tear down the wall as a symbolic gesture of sorts.

Besides that, a lack of faith is probably more commonplace in average commoners than you may think. As many people that are skeptical of magic in Faerun could just as likely deny the sheer power of gods' presence. Not insofar as believing they don't exist so much as they doubt the extent to which a god can exert their influence, and in a way, they're right. Gods rely on mortals to keep them powerful, so those that dedicate themselves to a god are providing a service to valuable for some to squander.

[Uncumber]

Lords of Madness in 3.5 gave them a pantheon of elder evils that they worshipped - not explicitly gods, but powerful otherworldly entities. I don't know if it's actual holy worship or just servitude, but since their beings are tangible (and just not present) they probably have a holier-than-thou attitude about how they approach divinity and cosmic beings like gods.

Besides that, a lack of faith is probably more commonplace in average commoners than you may think. As many people that are skeptical of magic in Faerun could just as likely deny the sheer power of gods' presence. Not insofar as believing they don't exist so much as they doubt the extent to which a god can exert their influence, and in a way, they're right. Gods rely on mortals to keep them powerful, so those that dedicate themselves to a god are providing a service to valuable for some to squander.

Thanks for the replies guys!

I mean, worshipping elder evils wasn't what I was going for.. but it's certainly something to consider! As for the 'lack of faith' - well, I was sort of brewing up a character that, for one reason or another (haven't decided yet), is explicitly against Gods in general - they certainly believe in them (a lot), so I wouldn't really call that a lack of faith (although you're right, I suppose that could be construed as a 'lack of faith in the God's powers') - However, I think I'm going to go for the whole 'mortals live on this world, so this world's fate ought to be decided by mortals, not deities' kind of vibe.

So that just got me thinking if there was a similar thinking pre-existing faction that my character could possibly be affiliated with, or something. But ya know, if there's not, there's not. I was only running ideas around in my head :)

[MilkmanDanimal]

"My family died, I forsake all the gods" is a reasonably classic fantasy trope, so go with it. I mean, it depends on how you want to play it. If you're some hyper-aggressive guy who yells at clerics and burns down temples, your character is going to be unplayable, because nobody will want to play with you. If you want to loudly and openly talk about how the Gods see mortals as toys and don't care about anyone, that definitely works.

[Unoriginal]

Lords of Madness in 3.5 gave them a pantheon of elder evils that they worshipped - not explicitly gods, but powerful otherworldly entities. I don't know if it's actual holy worship or just servitude, but since their beings are tangible (and just not present) they probably have a holier-than-thou attitude about how they approach divinity and cosmic beings like gods.

In 3.5, they didn't worship the Elder Evils, they just respected them for being older and more powerful than them. Enough to pay homage to them, but never through worship or prayers.

The beef the Aboleth have with gods is that the Aboleth were there *before*.



There's a faction of collected nonbelievers of gods, known as the Faithless, but both WoTC and most Realms enthusiasts tend to...disregard their existence. Namely because a piece of what little lore was dedicated to them was the existence of a wall made of the souls of dead faithless made by a god out of spite for them not worshipping deities. (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless) People are turned off by the idea that all you get for not following gods is to be turned into a metaphorical brick when they die, but I argue that this could be fuel for the fire. Imagine the wall as some sort of covetous treasure; A power source that someone with a willingness to travel to the Fugue Plane and extract the souls of those encased in it could use to perform extraordinary feats or miracles, or a source of endless undead (I'm getting flashbacks to fighting the Demon Wall in Final Fantasy 4 just thinking about that one). Perhaps the wall is actually a barrier for someone or something that could be weaponized to one's benefit, or perhaps it contains something not divine but capable of killing a god, the very thing dangerous enough for someone to lock it away. Or maybe they just want to tear down the wall as a symbolic gesture of sorts.

This changed for 5e. The Wall isn't something the gods do out of spite, and not all the faithless go there.



Besides that, a lack of faith is probably more commonplace in average commoners than you may think.

No. Not in Faerun. Being a bit religious is part of the everyday life.

It's not Eberron.



As many people that are skeptical of magic in Faerun

People aren't skeptical of magic in Faerun.



could just as likely deny the sheer power of gods' presence. Not insofar as believing they don't exist so much as they doubt the extent to which a god can exert their influence, and in a way, they're right.

Not only they'd be wrong, it's much more likely that they'd believe the gods do exert their influences in moments the gods are not involved.



Gods rely on mortals to keep them powerful, so those that dedicate themselves to a god are providing a service to valuable for some to squander.

Most gods aren't just taking worship and giving nothing in return.


they certainly believe in them (a lot), so I wouldn't really call that a lack of faith (although you're right, I suppose that could be construed as a 'lack of faith in the God's powers') - However, I think I'm going to go for the whole 'mortals live on this world, so this world's fate ought to be decided by mortals, not deities' kind of vibe.

So they're just delusional? It certainly can happen.

[Max_Killjoy]

Skeptical of magic as in they don't believe in its existence, or as in they don't trust it?

[Gastronomie]

Well, it's important to note that in the typical D&D setting, the existence of the gods and magic are obvious facts, not beliefs, and it's also common knowledge that they are super-powerful beings, a force to be respected.

Attempting to fight the gods in the D&D universe is even more reckless than attempting to overthrow real-life governments. You'd need a good reason to do so.

[mucat]

is there a group or faction somewhere (preferably in the Forgotten Realms, as that's where we set our games) - that are 'anti' the Gods?Is the Wall of the Faithless still a thing in the Forgotten Realms setting in 5ed?

If so, then its very existence, and the system it is a part of, provide strong reasons why a mortal might stand against the gods.

This doesn't mean that such mortals would deny the existence of the gods, or the fact that these beings are vastly more powerful than mortals. (Though one could quibble about whether 'gods' is really the right term for them, I suppose.)

But power is not the same thing as moral authority, and a mortal could eventually reach the conclusion that the gods have no right to be worshipped. A possible campaign capstone, for powerful characters of pretty much any alignment, might be to tear down the Wall or face annihilation for trying. (And, since it has already been tried many times before in history, for all the best and all the worst reasons, the odds would tilt strongly toward that 'deader than dead' outcome.)

[Unoriginal]

Is the Wall of the Faithless still a thing in the Forgotten Realms setting in 5ed?

Yes and no. It still exists, but it's not the same.

Most of the people without faith don't get sent to it. You have to be more than just some faithless guy to be sent there.



If so, then its very existence, and the system it is a part of, provide strong reasons why a mortal might stand against the gods.

Not really.



But power is not the same thing as moral authority

Why do people always assume that godhood has anything to do with moral authority?

Gods are authorities. SOME of them are moral. But that doesn't mean that they're moral authorities.



and a mortal could eventually reach the conclusion that the gods have no right to be worshipped.

There are two kinds of gods: those who provide something, be it help in everyday life, protection, or the like in exchange for worship, and those who are tyrants who empower enforcers to impose their worship and make their rules keep functioning, and who sometime also provide some help/protection to keep everything smooth.

Both kind are also ideals in one or more domaine, examples that mortals seek to emulate/reach and/or role models. Not always in a way that applies benevolence (ex: most goblins want to be as big an oppressing bully as Maggluybet), but still.


A possible campaign capstone, for powerful characters of pretty much any alignment, might be to tear down the Wall or face annihilation for trying. (And, since it has already been tried many times before in history, for all the best and all the worst reasons, the odds would tilt strongly toward that 'deader than dead' outcome.)

Even if they do break it... nothing would happen, most likely.

[mucat]

Why do people always assume that godhood has anything to do with moral authority?

Gods are authorities. SOME of them are moral. But that doesn't mean that they're moral authorities.Moral authority doesn't mean "an authority who is also moral". It means a being whose words carry moral weight. In most fantasy settings, gods and devils are such beings; serving them makes you part of something bigger and more important than yourself, for better or for worse.

A character in such a setting who denies the moral authority of the gods is simply saying that our own choices are as important (though likely nowhere near as effective) as those of the gods.


Even if they do break (the Wall)... nothing would happen, most likely.On that, I'll defer to your expertise. I haven't really glanced at the setting for a few editions, so everything I remember about the Wall of the Faithless (and the Realms in general) is badly out of date.

[Uncumber]

Well, it's important to note that in the typical D&D setting, the existence of the gods and magic are obvious facts, not beliefs, and it's also common knowledge that they are super-powerful beings, a force to be respected.

Attempting to fight the gods in the D&D universe is even more reckless than attempting to overthrow real-life governments. You'd need a good reason to do so.

Just to clarify, I have no intention whatsoever of my character being some sort of omnipotent god destroying, uh, person, or anything! I just had it in my head that 'having a very negative opinion of the Gods' seemed like a vaguely interesting facet of their personality that I could explore a little. I'd never take it any further than simply this character's belief and how it influences them.

It does surprise me that there isn't some sort of anti-god(s) faction in the game, somewhere, just considering how huge D&D (and Faerun) is - but that doesn't matter! Reading all this definitely hasn't put me off the idea.

[Unoriginal]

Moral authority doesn't mean "an authority who is also moral". It means a being whose words carry moral weight.

Yes, I know. I just said that.



In most fantasy settings, gods and devils are such beings

Not in D&D. At least not in 5e.



serving them makes you part of something bigger and more important than yourself, for better or for worse.

...sure, but that doesn't make it moral.

The Hobgoblin empire is bigger and, from the point of view of its influence in the world and on several thoudands beings through several generations, more important than a single being. Doesn't make it moral or have a moral authority.



A character in such a setting who denies the moral authority of the gods is simply saying that our own choices are as important (though likely nowhere near as effective) as those of the gods.

D&D Gods have a larger perspective than mortals (due to how the divine can see many worlds through the ages and the people who lives and lived on them), and they generally are both wise and smart, but ultimately they are individuals with their own flaws and opinions.

Angels have a kind of moral authority, in the sense that they will basically always have orderly and benevolent opinions and take orderly and benevolent choices, unless someone or something is messing with them/their mind, but even then they're still individuals. Two Devas can disagree on what's the best course of action even if they recognize that the other Deva's idea is just as orderly and benevolent than their own.

[Gastronomie]

Just to clarify, I have no intention whatsoever of my character being some sort of omnipotent god destroying, uh, person, or anything! I just had it in my head that 'having a very negative opinion of the Gods' seemed like a vaguely interesting facet of their personality that I could explore a little. I'd never take it any further than simply this character's belief and how it influences them.

It does surprise me that there isn't some sort of anti-god(s) faction in the game, somewhere, just considering how huge D&D (and Faerun) is - but that doesn't matter! Reading all this definitely hasn't put me off the idea.Well, "opposing gods" and "having a negative opinion about gods" are completely different.

Obviously there will be a certain number of people with negative opinions about gods, just like how there are a good number of people in the real world who have negative opinions about governments. A good reason could be "why don't the gods just obiliterate the evil monsters roaming the world?"

[Naanomi]

There is an anti-God planar faction (the Athar) that probably have at least a tiny presence on such a well-portaled world like Toril... and there was a faction that worshiped AO that declared all the other Gods unworthy of worship...

And, as an aside, a *few* Gods are moral authorities in some ways, most notably Asmodeus who (above being a God) is an authority in all senses of the word of Lawful Evilness. A few of the demon lords are also Gods, and Primus has occasionally been labeled as such

[Unoriginal]

Well, Asmodeus is more of an immoral authority.

And while he's *knowledgeable* about lawful evilness, and is an incarnation of one aspect of it, it's not like he's the one who defines what lawful evilness or anything of the sort.

Even Primus isn't a moral aurhority. His reaction to his magic stone creating a swarm of chaos frogs which whiped out a large number of lawful settlements was basically sending a tweet saying "working as intended".

[Max_Killjoy]

Observation -- we appear to have some overlapping meanings of describing a person or entity as "an authority".

Some seem to be using it as "very knowledgeable" and others seem to be using it as "has final say and power to enforce it".

[Unoriginal]

Observation -- we appear to have some overlapping meanings of describing a person or entity as "an authority".

Some seem to be using it as "very knowledgeable" and others seem to be using it as "has final say and power to enforce it".

I think we agree on what an authority is, it's the "moral" part that is more questioned.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think we agree on what an authority is, it's the "moral" part that is more questioned.

Well even there, is calling an entity a "moral authority" a statement that they're knowledgeable about what is and is not moral, or is it a statement that they have the power to decree by fiat what is and is not moral?

[Corpsecandle717]

Wasn't there a group that hated the standard pantheon but worshiped a sphere of annihilation as a god? They had functioning clerics and an interesting dual wielding prestige class. If I remember correctly it turned out Cyric was granting actually giving them their power.

Edit: Nope, I was wrong. I was thinking of House Karanok. They hated wizards not the gods and it was Tiamat giving them their power.

[Corpsecandle717]

Besides that, a lack of faith is probably more commonplace in average commoners than you may think. As many people that are skeptical of magic in Faerun could just as likely deny the sheer power of gods' presence. Not insofar as believing they don't exist so much as they doubt the extent to which a god can exert their influence, and in a way, they're right. Gods rely on mortals to keep them powerful, so those that dedicate themselves to a god are providing a service to valuable for some to squander.

I was recently trying to convey the importance of religions in FR to my group of newb players. I basically drew the analogy to modern society and Flat Earthers. Sure some people who don't believe in the gods exist, but those people are generally considered by the rest of society to be irrational.

[Millstone85]

It still exists, but it's not the same.

Most of the people without faith don't get sent to it. You have to be more than just some faithless guy to be sent there.You are still stuck in Hades, though. Either as a larva or as a servant of Kelemvor. The latter is definitely better but still, the damn Gray Waste.

Plus, I am not clear on what that "more" entails.

[darknite]

Gods, D&D and modern standards are an interesting mix. We live in a world where Faith is the window to the divine, as no tangible, prima facia evidence of a god's actual existence can be agreed upon. If you don't have faith, then a belief in a god is all the more difficult.

The gods of Faerun themselves are not ominpotent but their existence and power are undeniable. Imagine living in such a world. I hear players saying all the time they serve a given god. In reality they might favor one over another, but they would typically recognize and respect the power of each of them. You might not like Umberlee but you aren't going to sea without making some sort of appeal to her for a safe journey and you sure as hell aren't going to murder-hobo her priests and expect to ever approach a large body of water again.

Being anti-god in such a place is highly dangerous. Any god that finds you worthy of their attention in your efforts to purge them will take measures to show you the error of your ways. Don't expect a good outcome...

[RedMage125]

You could always MAKE such a group.

Back in 3.5e, I had a buddy that ran a short epic one-shot. Some of us made several characters. Mine were all Ur-Priests (a prestige class where characters got clerical power by stealing it from the gods. They all had German-sounding names and belonged to an organization called "Die Bruderschaft Des Mensch" or The Brotherhood of Man.

They believed that ALL the gods were ascended mortals and that all their creation mythoi were lies. Further, they believed that death, disease, and other ills did not exist prior, but when those individuals rose to godhood, those things were introduced into the world (shamelessly cribbed from the Blood of Vol in Eberron). So they steal power from the gods, and hope to weaken them, and spread their rhetoric about the primacy of mortals, hoping to take down the gods.

To be fair, the existence of the Wall of the Faithless means it would be problematic in Faerun, tho. But maybe they either don't believe it's true, or tearing down the wall and freeing those souls could be part of their goals.

[Malifice]

It's a dangerous proposition in Faerun seeing as being anti-God or an Atheist means that when you die, your soul becomes wallpaper for eternity once you get judged 'faithless' by Kelemvor, before you slowly fade into an eternal nothing.

You could escape by selling your soul to the Devils harassing the awaiting petitioners tempting them with such offers while they await judgement.

In fact, I could see Cults of Asmodeus spreading atheism and other false or faithless cults for just such a reason (extra bodies for them for the Blood war, when those false and faithless realise the folly of their position on death).

[Unoriginal]

In fact, I could see Cults of Asmodeus spreading atheism and other false or faithless cults for just such a reason (extra bodies for them for the Blood war, when those false and faithless realise the folly of their position on death).

Yeah, it happens.

'course, it doesn't require the people *knowing* they are in a Cult of Asmodeus, either.

[Uncumber]

Gods, D&D and modern standards are an interesting mix. We live in a world where Faith is the window to the divine, as no tangible, prima facia evidence of a god's actual existence can be agreed upon. If you don't have faith, then a belief in a god is all the more difficult.

The gods of Faerun themselves are not ominpotent but their existence and power are undeniable. Imagine living in such a world. I hear players saying all the time they serve a given god. In reality they might favor one over another, but they would typically recognize and respect the power of each of them. You might not like Umberlee but you aren't going to sea without making some sort of appeal to her for a safe journey and you sure as hell aren't going to murder-hobo her priests and expect to ever approach a large body of water again.

Being anti-god in such a place is highly dangerous. Any god that finds you worthy of their attention in your efforts to purge them will take measures to show you the error of your ways. Don't expect a good outcome...

Hmm, that's an interesting point, I hadn't really considered the 'dangerous' aspect at all. Having said that, as I wrote above - my character certainly wouldn't be on some great mission to take down the deities, rather, they just (strongly) resent the influence the Gods have on mortals in general - believing that the mortal realm should be governed by those that live in it. I don't think this character attitude should be too difficult to play, should it? I mean, I am new to D&D so I don't want to be presumptuous, but I was thinking that it oughtn't be too much of an issue, considering I wouldn't be out to change the world or anything 'epic' like that.

Regarding what RedMage125 said about 'Making a group' (I don't know how to quote multiple people!) - I kinda like the idea of this, however, since I am new to D&D, I am really hesitant to uh, I don't know how to describe it, make anything too much about me. That's why I was looking for a pre-existing faction, because then I could just say 'oh my character was affiliated with [this group] before moving on to adventuring, blah blah' sort of thing. I mean, I suppose I could just invent this '[this group]', but I don't really like the idea of 'stretching' the lore - especially as I'm so new to this at the moment.

Also... what is the Wall of the Faithless in 5e exactly? Unoriginal said (regarding it in 5e) ''Most of the people without faith don't get sent to it. You have to be more than just some faithless guy to be sent there.'' - is there any more info on what exactly it's all about?

[Malifice]

Yeah, it happens.

'course, it doesn't require the people *knowing* they are in a Cult of Asmodeus, either.

Nope, just create a band of Athiests or a start a false religion.

Everyone that joins get the choice after death of either eternity as wallpaper, or signing a hasty contract with a devil to start all over again as a Lemure.

[sigfile]

I think I remember in Planescape there was a faction that believed that the Gods weren't all that, although I could definitely be mistaken. I'm just wondering if there's anything even resembling that in the Forgotten Realms!

There is! Or, at least, there was.


“And this is why, my friends, the gods are so dangerous. Should we follow them blindly? What honor is it to ask blind devotion, peppered not with care, but with fear? I say rise! Shake off the yoke. Do not do what the Order commands you, but listen to your heart, and follow that road. This is the Way.”

The Way rose up in Elturgard after the Spellplague, which was only completely suicidal.

[RSP]

It’s been a while (like a real long time...) but wasn’t this kind of like Raistlin Majere? *Spoiler Alert for Weis/Hickman books* (though as I’m going off a memory a few decades old, they may not actually be spoilers).

He knew the gods existed, but also knew they could be challenged by a mortal if they gained enough power (and if I recall, he did gain said power).

As a younger man, learning magic, he paid lip service to the gods, and was “neutral”, while after he grew more powerful, his opposition grew as well (and he fully became evil which may, depending on your views of good/evil and gods, may be a requirement of one to challenge the gods, though I wouldn’t apply this necessity to challenging the FR deities).

Not sure this is what the OP was going for, but I figured it may be a “realistic” example of one who doesn’t buy in to the gods: they’re needed unless you’re powerful enough to not need them.

[Man_Over_Game]

One option you could look into is Ao.

Ao is kinda like the God of Gods. He's unique in that he has worshippers, but he grants them no power. His "clerics" are mostly philosophers, scribes, and other non-magical intellectuals. He doesn't really tell these people what to do or how to behave, they just kind of like Ao and choose to follow his beliefs.

Anyway, some time between 3.5e and 5e, the Gods kept messing around with the mortal realm so much that Ao broke apart the Gods' powers, which caused a lot of mayhem and trouble for the Gods, and for a long time, they were weakened and isolated for their treachery.


Once it is over, the word of Ao declares: The Era of Upheaval is ended. Great stories remain to be told in this era, but they are not the stories of gods and godlike beings. They are the tales of mortal heroes, taking a stand to preserve the world they love.

In 5e, Gods can play minor parts (Tiamat, for instance, can go through a long ordeal by the actions of Mortals that can summon her avatar to our plane), but overall, Gods NEED to be less important than Mortals on the Friggin' Mortal Realm, people.

------

What I'm going on about is that having your character worship the God of Gods, and believing that the other Gods are breaking sh** is a great background for a character. Maybe he discovered ancient texts that depict The Sundering, and how so much destruction came from the squabbling of dumb Gods, and so he seeks to stop the Gods before they cause something to happen again.

Because I want to point out that this is NOT the first time that Ao broke stuff to put it back together again.

[Malifice]

It’s been a while (like a real long time...) but wasn’t this kind of like Raistlin Majere? *Spoiler Alert for Weis/Hickman books* (though as I’m going off a memory a few decades old, they may not actually be spoilers).

He knew the gods existed, but also knew they could be challenged by a mortal if they gained enough power (and if I recall, he did gain said power).

As a younger man, learning magic, he paid lip service to the gods, and was “neutral”, while after he grew more powerful, his opposition grew as well (and he fully became evil which may, depending on your views of good/evil and gods, may be a requirement of one to challenge the gods, though I wouldn’t apply this necessity to challenging the FR deities).

Not sure this is what the OP was going for, but I figured it may be a “realistic” example of one who doesn’t buy in to the gods: they’re needed unless you’re powerful enough to not need them.

Rasltin wasnt an athiest (and he lived at a time when most people were, and true divine magic didnt exist for much of his youth and adolesence as people had turned their backs on the Gods).

Raistlin believed in them nonetheless.

He wasnt 'anti Gods'. He was just full of insecurity and hubris, and wanted to become one.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's a dangerous proposition in Faerun seeing as being anti-God or an Atheist means that when you die, your soul becomes wallpaper for eternity once you get judged 'faithless' by Kelemvor, before you slowly fade into an eternal nothing.

You could escape by selling your soul to the Devils harassing the awaiting petitioners tempting them with such offers while they await judgement.

In fact, I could see Cults of Asmodeus spreading atheism and other false or faithless cults for just such a reason (extra bodies for them for the Blood war, when those false and faithless realise the folly of their position on death).


I keep seeing comments that this whole "prostrate yourself before our glory, or suffer eternally" thing was dialed way back in 5e.

[Malifice]

I keep seeing comments that this whole "prostrate yourself before our glory, or suffer eternally" thing was dialed way back in 5e.

The False now get time in a kind of purgatory from memory.

The Faithless get the real hell as eternal wallpaper.

They get a chance out though via Infernal contracts while they await judgement.

For mine, I would have writen it differently. The False (a vengeful Paladin of Torm, who resorts to atrocities in the name of 'the Greater Good' etc) would be punished with Wallpaper, and the Faithless get judged according to the afterlife of who they are most in alignment with (regardless of if they believe or not) and sent there.

[Unoriginal]

Most of the people who don't have any particular faith becomes psychopomps or the like, in 5e.

Keep in mind that whole Wall thing only happen in the FR's Crystal Sphere, anyway.

[Max_Killjoy]

The False now get time in a kind of purgatory from memory.

The Faithless get the real hell as eternal wallpaper.

They get a chance out though via Infernal contracts while they await judgement.




Most of the people who don't have any particular faith becomes psychopomps or the like, in 5e.


So which is it, now, in official FR?

[Millstone85]

So which is it, now, in official FR?All we have is this:
Most humans believe the souls of the recently deceased are spirited away to the Fugue Plane, where they wander the great City of Judgment, often unaware they are dead. The servants of the gods come to collect such souls and, if they are worthy, they are taken to their awaited afterlife in the deity's domain. Occasionally, the faithful are sent back to be reborn into the world to finish work that was left undone.

Souls that are unclaimed by the servants of the gods are judged by Kelemvor, who decides the fate of each one. Some are charged with serving as guides for other lost souls, while others are transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust. The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of the Faithless, the great barrier that bounds the City of the Dead, where their souls slowly dissolve and begin to become part of the stuff of the Wall itself.
Plus the Asmodeus stuff.

It is a bit open to interpretation. What does it mean to be "truly" faithless? Or is it now the Wall of the False? The description is just too short.

[Malifice]

So which is it, now, in official FR?

The pre Spellplague version of what happened is:


The Faithless are mortals who do not have a divine patron. This could be because the mortal never worshiped a deity (or rejected outright the worship of any deity), the mortal's divine patron has died, or that their divine patron rejected them for whatever reason. A soul who does worship a deity but did not sufficiently uphold their patron's dogma is instead judged False.

A Faithless soul receives only one sentence when it reaches The City of Judgment on the Fugue Plane: the Wall of the Faithless.[1] The soul is bound onto the wall by a green mold that binds The Faithless (and only The Faithless) to the wall.[2] Over time the soul dissolves into the very substance of the wall.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Faithless

I know that since then Ao has mellowed out a bit and re-written the Tablets of Fate (but that's more to do with precluding Gods from fighting each other Highlander style over portfolio clashes).

Unless Ao has given Kelemvor a different decree as God of Death (and I am not aware of one) then this again applies post Spellplague/ Second Sundering/ 4E.

In fact the article on Asmodeus states the Devils are still trying to get Faithless and False moral souls awaiting judgement to sign those contracts (it's the main way the Devils recruit new soldiers for the Blood War).

[Max_Killjoy]

All we have is this:
Plus the Asmodeus stuff.

It is a bit open to interpretation. What does it mean to be "truly" faithless? Or is it now the Wall of the False? The description is just too short.

The two common meanings listed for "faithless" are:

1. Disloyal, untrustworthy -- implying active acts of betrayal and violation of trust/oath
2. Without religious faith

If the "false and faithless" are those who actively betrayed trust and violated their oaths, then it's not as big a deal.

But if it's as described in several previous works, and all it takes to be branded "faithless" is to passively have no religious faith... then to hell with all the gods of FR, including Ao, and full support to anyone who seeks to tear them down.

[Max_Killjoy]

The pre Spellplague version of what happened is:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Faithless

I know that since then Ao has mellowed out a bit and re-written the Tablets of Fate (but that's more to do with precluding Gods from fighting each other Highlander style over portfolio clashes).

Unless Ao has given Kelemvor a different decree as God of Death (and I am not aware of one) then this again applies post Spellplague/ Second Sundering/ 4E.


OK, so that's 4e? What about 5e?

[Unoriginal]

OK, so that's 4e? What about 5e?

Millstone85 posted all we have above.

[Malifice]

OK, so that's 4e? What about 5e?

No, thats 3E and prior.

Pre Spellplague. Then Aber and Toril got merged, the Weave collapsed, all the Gods got killed, Halflings grew a foot and moved to the swamp, Tieflings all got retconned as Asmodeus clones, Vancian magic became a thing of the past... and 4E happened.

Then just as quickly, all that got undone and the Gods came back, halflings shrank, the weave was restored, Vancian magic made a comeback, Aber left Toril and it went back to how it had always been...

I havent seen anything to suggest that now (after the 'Second Sundering' of undoing the huge sweeping changes they made to the Realms to justify 4E's rules) things in the Fuge Plane havent also gone back to how they were before.

About the only thing that remains from 4e is Asmodeus stayed a deity, Primordial is still a language and Dragonborn are still around (in smaller numbers, and now refugees seeing as their realm got sucked back into whence it came with the coming of the new edition... errr the coming of the Second Sundering).

The main changes to canon (ignoring the time from the spellplague to second sundering - i.e. the changes to the canon and Realms they made to accomodate 4E) are that Ao has rewritten the Tablets of Fate (so they dont require the Gods to fight each other for supremacy anymore) and the Greyhawk Great Wheel is now the cosmic Planar model instead of the World Tree of 3E and earlier (and the Axis thing of 4E).

I havent seen anything to suggest that the fates of the Faithless or False differ from before, or that Kelemvors role is any different now to what it was in 3E.

The implicit inference is that it's back to how it was in 3E and earlier, 'Post Spellplague' with the Great Wheel replacing the World Tree and a few other remnants of 4E's Spellplague and plot advancement still floating around (Shar has combined the Plane of Negative energy with the Plane of Shadow and so forth, The city of Shade is no more, Dragonborn are still rocking around, Asmodeus as a bona fide Deity etc)

[Malifice]

Millstone85 posted all we have above.

Yeah there you go. The False and the Faithless still go all Pink Floyd in 5E.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U

[Unoriginal]

Yeah there you go. The False and the Faithless still go all Pink Floyd in 5E.


I regularly make that joke.

And it's not "still ".

There WAS changement. Now people also become psychopomps or Hades larvas.



Don't know why people would blame the gods for this, anyway. Aside from Kelemvor, who is an impartial judge, they have no say in what happen to unclaimed souls.

I'm an atheist in real life, and I find utterly absurd that in a world where gods are known to exist and where you can access Paradise rather than becoming brick and mortar just by praying twice a year while burning some laurel leaves, you wouldn't do it. Some gods are tyrants, true, but unless you're born in the society they control it's not hard to find a big bunch of gods who aren't.

[Malifice]

I'm an atheist in real life, and I find utterly absurd that in a world where gods are known to exist and where you can access Paradise rather than becoming brick and mortar just by praying twice a year while burning some laurel leaves, you wouldn't do it.

This is a world with illusion magic meaning you could never be sure what is real, in a universe where people like Bhaal and Cyric are elevated to cosmic power and godhood by an uncaring Overgod... so even if you could somehow know absolute truth, that truth might very well be something you reject for other reasons.

Heck from your characters perspective, the entire reality around him could just be one giant imaginary game, where nothing - not even the Gods - are truly real, and all his actions are determined by the fall of dice...

:smallwink:

If that passage made you stop and think, welcome to Dualism and Decartes, and perhaps now you see why Agnosticism (inability to know anything for sure, even when it's right in front of your face) is logically superior to both atheism and theism (both absolute statements of truth).

[Max_Killjoy]

Don't know why people would blame the gods for this, anyway. Aside from Kelemvor, who is an impartial judge, they have no say in what happen to unclaimed souls.


Who does have a say, then? Where does this "worship or suffer" rule come from?

[Malifice]

Who does have a say, then? Where does this "worship or suffer" rule come from?

Ao. The Overgod.

Who himself answers to a 'Luminous Being' (implicitly inferred to be the DM).

[Max_Killjoy]

This is a world with illusion magic meaning you could never be sure what is real, in a universe where people like Bhaal and Cyric are elevated to cosmic power and godhood by an uncaring Overgod... so even if you could somehow know absolute truth, that truth might very well be something you reject for other reasons.

Heck from your characters perspective, the entire reality around him could just be one giant imaginary game, where nothing - not even the Gods - are truly real, and all his actions are determined by the fall of dice...

:smallwink:

If that passage made you stop and think, welcome to Dualism and Decartes, and perhaps now you see why Agnosticism (inability to know anything for sure, even when it's right in front of your face) is logically superior to both atheism and theism (both absolute statements of truth).

Actual agnosticism is not the total rejection of empirical examination of observable information -- the word you're looking for there might be "solipsism".

And that's as far as we can go discussing that matter, I think.

[Unoriginal]

If that passage made you stop and think, welcome to Dualism and Decartes,

*roll eyes*

I don't have to be welcomed to things I've studied for years.



and perhaps now you see why Agnosticism (inability to know anything for sure, even when it's right in front of your face) is logically superior to both atheism and theism (both absolute statements of truth).

Calling me logically inferior is not going to earn you any point either, Malifice. But whatever, your insults are too ineffective to hurt.

[Max_Killjoy]

Ao. The Overgod.

Who himself answers to a 'Luminous Being' (implicitly inferred to be the DM).

I don't think the internet has enough eye-roll emotes for my reaction to the twee wink-nod-haha notion of making the in-setting "underlying truth" be that it's all just a game afterall. That's fine for farce and goofball settings, but that's not really what FR's supposed to be... is it? (Or maybe it is... given some of the author insert characters...)

[Malifice]

Calling me logically inferior is not going to earn you any point either, Malifice. But whatever, your insults are too ineffective to hurt.

Im not saying you're logically inferior. Im saying belief in absolute truth outside of self existence inst logically sound. We could be in the Matrix for example, and none of this could be real.

You can believe in such things (or have absolute faith that none of it exists) it of course; it just relies on faith, and not logic.

Not that there is anything wrong with faith in the existence of things outside the self. I make no judgement either way. Its just not logically verifiable (and that's no slight against you).

[Malifice]

I don't think the internet has enough eye-roll emotes for my reaction to the twee wink-nod-haha notion of making the in-setting "underlying truth" be that it's all just a game afterall. That's fine for farce and goofball settings, but that's not really what FR's supposed to be... is it? (Or maybe it is... given some of the author insert characters...)

I once had a PC whos Hermit background discovery was 'Reality is all contrived. We're all just projections of a bunch of dudes sitting at a table, in a shared imaginary world, where our actions are determined by the roll of the dice.'

DM: You find a +1 Sword..
My PC (wild eyed): See I told you all! PLUS ONE TO WHAT!

PC: I cast True Seeing..
DM: You see 5 blokes sitting around a table, eating cheetos and drinking beer...

[RSP]

Don't know why people would blame the gods for this, anyway. Aside from Kelemvor, who is an impartial judge, they have no say in what happen to unclaimed souls.

...and where you can access Paradise rather than becoming brick and mortar just by praying twice a year while burning some laurel leaves, you wouldn't do it. Some gods are tyrants, true, but unless you're born in the society they control it's not hard to find a big bunch of gods who aren't.

Wouldn’t praying to a god for the sole purpose of not joining the Wall be False? You’re not truly devote, just trying to avoid a punishment.

Further, there still the issue of a character deciding to follow a god and then that god (or their servants) demanding more from the character than that character is willing to give.

Is it better to give up your freedom and serve a god’s plan you don’t agree with, or better to remain the arbiter of your decisions and risk it in the afterlife? Because following a god and then deciding to go it your own way sounds like a way to become “False.”

[Unoriginal]

I don't think the internet has enough eye-roll emotes for my reaction to the twee wink-nod-haha notion of making the in-setting "underlying truth" be that it's all just a game afterall. That's fine for farce and goofball settings, but that's not really what FR's supposed to be... is it? (Or maybe it is... given some of the author insert characters...)

Well, it's not the "actual" underlying truth.

The Luminous Being isn't "the DM", it's "some force whose will may be inferred to be the DM's will".

As for being goofball... ALL of D&D is goofball to an extent. It's not ONLY goofball, but it is goofball.


Elminster, Mordenkainen and that archmage from Dragonlance I never remember the name used to hang out in Ed Greenwood's kitchen, for example.

[Unoriginal]

Wouldn’t praying to a god for the sole purpose of not joining the Wall be False? You’re not truly devote, just trying to avoid a punishment.

Not really. Umberlee's just fine with sailors paying lip service to her in exchange for not getting their ship destroyed, for example, and that's enough worship to avoid the Wall.



Further, there still the issue of a character deciding to follow a god and then that god (or their servants) demanding more from the character than that character is willing to give.

That's.... unlikely to happen to say the least. Said character could just say "alright, bye, I'm getting a new god" without any consequence (at least on the divine level).



Is it better to give up your freedom and serve a god’s plan you don’t agree with, or better to remain the arbiter of your decisions and risk it in the afterlife?

The premise of this question is false. There is no "give up your freedom or risk doom in the afterlife".

Following a god does not mean you give up your freedom. At all. SOME gods demand worship from oppressed groups (like Lolth or Maggluybet), but the loss of freedom doesn't come from worshiping the god, it's because people born in those societies are generally trapped into it unless they can break it off.

In non-evil societies, gods are not asking for your freedom. Just give them a nod when you do something that is in their Domain and you're fine.

[AHF]

Since you cited Baldur’s Gate and Planescape: Torment, you might want to check out Neverwinter Night 2: Mask of the Betrayer on this. The faithless, whether the gods are worthy of worship, an npc who rejects worshipping any of the gods and another npc who holds them in contempt are major threads in that game.

[RSP]

Not really. Umberlee's just fine with sailors paying lip service to her in exchange for not getting their ship destroyed, for example, and that's enough worship to avoid the Wall

That's.... unlikely to happen to say the least. Said character could just say "alright, bye, I'm getting a new god" without any consequence (at least on the divine level)...

...In non-evil societies, gods are not asking for your freedom. Just give them a nod when you do something that is in their Domain and you're fine.

I’m not claiming to be any sort of scholar on D&D gods, but if the above is what we have as a reference, then the line “The servants of the gods come to collect such souls and, if they are worthy, they are taken to their awaited afterlife in the deity's domain,” must also mean that some “followers” of deities are considered “not worthy.”

It sounds like your opinion is “worthy=a simple declaration that you’re a follower of that god,” yet the line I quoted, to me at least, indicates more. Reading that quote, I’d say there’s a line of devotion that needs to be met above a wink and nod, in order to gain access. Otherwise, wouldn’t the wording be “The servants of the gods come to collect such souls and, if they say they’ll follow, they are taken to their awaited afterlife in the deity's domain.

[RedMage125]

That's.... unlikely to happen to say the least. Said character could just say "alright, bye, I'm getting a new god" without any consequence (at least on the divine level).


This just made me think of that Powerthirst video from way back when...

"When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD!

GODBERRY! King of the Juice!"

[Naanomi]

Well, Asmodeus is more of an immoral authority.

And while he's *knowledgeable* about lawful evilness, and is an incarnation of one aspect of it, it's not like he's the one who defines what lawful evilness or anything of the sort.

Even Primus isn't a moral aurhority. His reaction to his magic stone creating a swarm of chaos frogs which whiped out a large number of lawful settlements was basically sending a tweet saying "working as intended".
Eh, I would argue as the head Lawful Evil Exemplar, that Asmodeus is chosen by and somewhat incarnates the very nature of what it means to be Lawful Evil in the Great Wheel Cosmology. Even moreso with Primus (there is always the question about whether Baator considers Asmodeus 'legitimate' or not next to the ancient baatorians), though admittedly a few of his incarnations have faltered a bit over the eons in various ways


One option you could look into is Ao.

Ao is kinda like the God of Gods. He's unique in that he has worshippers, but he grants them no power. His "clerics" are mostly philosophers, scribes, and other non-magical intellectuals. He doesn't really tell these people what to do or how to behave, they just kind of like Ao and choose to follow his beliefs.

Anyway, some time between 3.5e and 5e, the Gods kept messing around with the mortal realm so much that Ao broke apart the Gods' powers, which caused a lot of mayhem and trouble for the Gods, and for a long time, they were weakened and isolated for their treachery.
In classic lore, AO is hardly the top of the food chain. He, at the very least, has a 'luminous being' above him... and there are at least a few other documented Over-Powers like him out there. There are hints that there is likely a layer of the food chain above them as well, the 'Ancient Ones' that supersede the Great Wheel Cosmology all together and oversee all alternative Cosmologies as well


Keep in mind that whole Wall thing only happen in the FR's Crystal Sphere, anyway.
Though it is hardly the worst plane out there in terms of Afterlife option. At least in Toril, only some souls suffer and then fade to oblivion (in the wall)... on Athas it is the fate of everyone eventually (in the Grey)



Don't know why people would blame the gods for this, anyway. Aside from Kelemvor, who is an impartial judge, they have no say in what happen to unclaimed souls.
It is assumed by many that Myrkul set up the wall system in the first place, in part because he was so much weaker than his predecessor Jergal (who didn't need such threats to make people fear death appropriately)

[KorvinStarmast]

It seems to me that "The Great Old One" and a variety of aberrations (like the aboleth mentioned above) would be interested in supporting anti god activity ... through proxies at first.

How it plays out would be a fun thing.

There's a lich running around trying to create a new goddish thing ... which due to its intgeraction with souls may well be an infringement on gods' various spheres of authority ..

[Temperjoke]

One point to consider, that I think might have gotten lost, is that the OP wasn't looking for a group or to create a group that refused to believe the gods existed. It seemed more like the OP wanted a group that refused to accept intervention/worship of the gods. I don't think anything like that has existed in Faerun, but isn't that view a common view of more "worldly" planar travelers? That gods are just powerful beings in the cosmos?

[hamishspence]

I don't think anything like that has existed in Faerun, but isn't that view a common view of more "worldly" planar travelers? That gods are just powerful beings in the cosmos?

Yup - the Athar faction in Planescape fits this pretty well.

[Azgeroth]

i am certainly not a sholar of dnd lore.. but at least in 5e.

lets take a few examples..

1. bernard is a farmer, he never really gave any credence to the gods, watching his peers pray for a good harvest only for it fail and them ruined, left a sour taste.. but he was a good man, kind tolerant and patient..

upon his death, and reaching the city of the dead and finally receiving his divine judgement he was sent to the divine plane that best fit his life, having broken no divine law, no pact for his soul, he is simply designated an afterlife that best suits him..

2. gemma is a devout worshipper of tor, lived her entire life per the teachings of tor..
dies, is judged to have been true to tor, and so is shipped of to tors realm..

3. john, always coveting power, a coward, sought his power through less than amicable means..
upon his death, and reaching the city of the dead, he flee's from his judgement, never able to leave the city of the dead after centuries of wandering his soul is incorporated into the very stones of the city..

4. felicia, much like john, sought power and didnt much care on how she got it.. one quick deal with a devil gave her that power..
on her death, and judgement, the pact on her soul was presented, and she gets shipped of to whichever part of hell is dictated in her contract..


TL;DR

if you dont break divine law, you go to heaven anyway, if you dont break divine law, or tenants of your faith you go to that heaven, in you abscond from divine judgement your soul becomes a part of the city of the dead, if you make a pact with a being for your soul, they get your soul, save perhaps for some very clever clause or act to break said pact.

you can absolutely be a PC, or a group of PC's who don't give a rats arse about any god or their faithful, this is the material plane, made for mortal creatures, to live as they see fit and that is precisely what you are going to do? all gravy here my friend.. though there may be certain parties who would like to sway you in one direction or another..

[noob]

I'm an atheist in real life, and I find utterly absurd that in a world where gods are known to exist and where you can access Paradise rather than becoming brick and mortar just by praying twice a year while burning some laurel leaves, you wouldn't do it. Some gods are tyrants, true, but unless you're born in the society they control it's not hard to find a big bunch of gods who aren't.
It is not some gods.
All the gods did horrible things.
"good gods" ate each other without any remorse and they still often kills people or encourage doing so.
The only way I would pray for a god in the forgotten realms would be if I took the heretic of the faith feat and prayed to a god which is so marginal no actions for that god have ever been described and have the heresy that this god intends to help people in a non violent way.



1. bernard is a farmer, he never really gave any credence to the gods, watching his peers pray for a good harvest only for it fail and them ruined, left a sour taste.. but he was a good man, kind tolerant and patient..

upon his death, and reaching the city of the dead and finally receiving his divine judgement he was sent to the divine plane that best fit his life, having broken no divine law, no pact for his soul, he is simply designated an afterlife that best suits him..
That is false in the Forgotten realms.
Since the wall of the faithless and its lore does still exists(it was not removed) since bernard have no patron god and did not commit anything that condemns his soul to hell(signing a pact with a devil and maybe something else allowed to be condemned to hell) then he goes to the wall of the faithless.

[Unoriginal]

i am certainly not a sholar of dnd lore.. but at least in 5e.

lets take a few examples..

1. bernard is a farmer, he never really gave any credence to the gods, watching his peers pray for a good harvest only for it fail and them ruined, left a sour taste.. but he was a good man, kind tolerant and patient..

upon his death, and reaching the city of the dead and finally receiving his divine judgement he was sent to the divine plane that best fit his life, having broken no divine law, no pact for his soul, he is simply designated an afterlife that best suits him..

2. gemma is a devout worshipper of tor, lived her entire life per the teachings of tor..
dies, is judged to have been true to tor, and so is shipped of to tors realm..

3. john, always coveting power, a coward, sought his power through less than amicable means..
upon his death, and reaching the city of the dead, he flee's from his judgement, never able to leave the city of the dead after centuries of wandering his soul is incorporated into the very stones of the city..

4. felicia, much like john, sought power and didnt much care on how she got it.. one quick deal with a devil gave her that power..
on her death, and judgement, the pact on her soul was presented, and she gets shipped of to whichever part of hell is dictated in her contract..


TL;DR

if you dont break divine law, you go to heaven anyway, if you dont break divine law, or tenants of your faith you go to that heaven, in you abscond from divine judgement your soul becomes a part of the city of the dead, if you make a pact with a being for your soul, they get your soul, save perhaps for some very clever clause or act to break said pact.

you can absolutely be a PC, or a group of PC's who don't give a rats arse about any god or their faithful, this is the material plane, made for mortal creatures, to live as they see fit and that is precisely what you are going to do? all gravy here my friend.. though there may be certain parties who would like to sway you in one direction or another..

It can happens like that in your own setting, if you'd decided it does, but we're talking about D&D lore, more specifically Forgotten Realms lore.

What you described is neither default 5e D&D nor FR lore.


It is not some gods.
All the gods did horrible things.

Such as?



"good gods" ate each other without any remorse and they still often kills people or encourage doing so.[/
QUOTE]

Don't know what you're referring to with the "ate each other part", but killing people is something the adventurers do regularly too. And now in 5e the good gods don't advocates for genocides or the like.

[QUOTE=noob;23570439]
The only way I would pray for a god in the forgotten realms would be if I took the heretic of the faith feat and prayed to a god which is so marginal no actions for that god have ever been described and have the heresy that this god intends to help people in a non violent way.

...if you have this much of an issue with characters usigng violence, why are you playing an adventurer?



That is false in the Forgotten realms.
Since the wall of the faithless and its lore does still exists(it was not removed) since bernard have no patron god and did not commit anything that condemns his soul to hell(signing a pact with a devil and maybe something else allowed to be condemned to hell) then he goes to the wall of the faithless.

Actually, he would become a psychopomp and help other people's souls.


But "being bitter about those guys who prayed gods but still got bad harvests and then got ruined" would imply that the gods wouldn't help them out. Which in a world where there are quite a few traveling Clerics who can help them and would help them in accordance to their deities' will, it's more a question of having such bad luck even the gods can't help you than the gods not helping.