Sims are people too - V2

[kalos72]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?437161-Sims-are-people-too

Not wanting to necro that thread but, my group had another cool idea here for a process to use the Simulacrum spell/power to repopulate a city with Fanatically loyal citizens.

Remember, the original idea was to take Sims of a dead NOC that followed the group, turn them into "real people" and have them become citizens to repopulate our city.

There was also another separate idea to create orphanages in the major cities and then send the children to a sped up demi-plane to grow up, loyal to the church that raised them.

The problem we always had was memories. If none of your city has any memory before coming to your city, its gonna get noticed.

Tonight one of the group thought, just SIM the orphans, turn them into "real boys" and have them grow up in the Church....

[unseenmage]

As written Sims get the memories of the original. As written a Sim doesnt even know that they are a Sim until they're given evidence of that fact.

If you go hunt down the 2nd edition version of the Simulacrum spell they only get a percentage of the original's memories.


Be aware that the arguements about to go down in this thread will boil down to emphasizing either the 'illusory' or the 'duplicate' part of the spell.
Enjoy.

[Jack_Simth]

Be aware that the arguements about to go down in this thread will boil down to emphasizing either the 'illusory' or the 'duplicate' part of the spell.
Enjoy.
Oh, I don't know. You may also get a few folks saying "There's ambiguity in the spell, and while other folks can tell you what they think... the only opinion on the topic that actually matters for your purposes is your DM's," and variations on that.


Tonight one of the group thought, just SIM the orphans, turn them into "real boys" and have them grow up in the Church....

Sims can't improve. Sim a child, you get a permanent child.

[unseenmage]

....

Sims can't improve. Sim a child, you get a permanent child.
Who says aging equals improvement?

As written they are not immortal.

[Jack_Simth]

Edit:
As to how to get large quantities of simulacrums:
Mirror memphits, Expidition to the Demonweb Pits. Simulacrum as a 1/day spell like at CL 8. And note that the critter in question has an Advancement line that permits it to have more than double the starting hit dice. Spell like abilities don't require the component, so a sim of an advanced-to-double mirror memphit has the full hit dice of a normal mirror memphit... and is within range of creation of a normal mirror memphit. Even assuming that a sim starts with all dailies expended, this gives you a doubling period of 1 day during warm up (if they start with all dailies available, then you can have an essentially arbitrarily large army available this way on day 2). You do, however, end up with the Wight chain problem: The sims are under control of other sims. You have some root sim somewhere in the mix which - if suborned by any valid means - has the ability to yank your entire force out from underneath you (and you have lower-down nodes that can do the same with a subset of your force, as you're looking at a tree structure).


Who says aging equals improvement?

As written they are not immortal.
It explicitly can't increase it's abilities. I've yet to meet a five year old that's as strong as an "average" adult. Have you? Strength is one of the abilities. Likewise, I've yet to see a five year old that's as dextrous as an "average" adult. Or as smart. Or as wise. In order to transition from one to the other, you'd need to increase those. Well, unless you're thinking that when you sim a five year old and then wait fifteen years, you'll get an adult with the str/dex/con/int/wis/cha of a 5 year old. I suppose I could buy that as a DM, but I'd still generally call that a permanent child, even if it doesn't look like it anymore.

[unseenmage]

...


It explicitly can't increase it's abilities. I've yet to meet a five year old that's as strong as an "average" adult. Have you? Strength is one of the abilities. Likewise, I've yet to see a five year old that's as dextrous as an "average" adult. Or as smart. Or as wise. In order to transition from one to the other, you'd need to increase those. Well, unless you're thinking that when you sim a five year old and then wait fifteen years, you'll get an adult with the str/dex/con/int/wis/cha of a 5 year old. I suppose I could buy that as a DM, but I'd still generally call that a permanent child, even if it doesn't look like it anymore.
As I've said before in other places and with different words, one's adjudication had best not grant additional superpowers especially superpowers greater than what one was trying to prevent.

Making Sims into Constructs, making them immortal, saying they are immune to aging or entropy as a result thereof just isn't how I'd go about it.

I would much rather a Sim of a commoner child, Average Joe Jr if you will, just result in a perfectly obedient Average Joe rather than a minion with greater abilities than the bog standard commoner it was based on.

[Jack_Simth]

As I've said before in other places and with different words, one's adjudication had best not grant additional superpowers especially superpowers greater than what one was trying to prevent.

Making Sims into Constructs, making them immortal, saying they are immune to aging or entropy as a result thereof just isn't how I'd go about it.

I would much rather a Sim of a commoner child, Average Joe Jr if you will, just result in a perfectly obedient Average Joe rather than a minion with greater abilities than the bog standard commoner it was based on.
Would you rather a sim of a wyrmling turn into a Great Wyrm if left to itself for 1,201 years (possibly, but not necessarily, via use of a fast-time plane)? Because that's one of the implications of permitting simulacrums to "grow up".

I'm not even using the "fuzzy bits" of the Simulacrum Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm). The spell straight-up says:
A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.

I've spent the last few years watching an infant grow into a toddler. I can assure you, growing up requires increasing one's abilities. The simulacrum spell forbids that. A sim might be able to grow old and decay (and suffer the -1 Str/Dex/Con for hitting Middle Aged, the -2 for hitting Old, and the -3 for Venerable), but it's quite clear that it can't "grow up".

[Bronk]

In my games, I stick with simulacrums being permanently stuck in whatever form they started in - no aging, getting pregnant, etc. - due to being an illusion, only 'appearing' as the original, and being an instantaneous spell effect. I have them unable to be healed normally, because I consider that RAI - the spell says they can be repaired in a shop, but doesn't specifically say it can't be healed normally too - but I do allow 'repair' spells to work due to the wording used. I also go with them being soulless per Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk (edit: and also from that book, that they have minds of their own, and become free if their creator dies).

Beyond that, I continually hope my players will not think about the spell too hard.

So, if my players were going to use simulacrum to populate a city... it would be tough. First, they'd have to figure out a quick way to do it that bypassed the 12 hour casting time, otherwise it would take way too long. Then they'd have to bypass the XP requirements. They'd have to do it in a way that meant they were still counted as the creators, otherwise they wouldn't have control over the sims, which could create problems. Eventually, when they had enough sims, they could have some kind of eternal servant city, or they could try to get souls for everyone, perhaps with a series of adventures involving the Bastion of Unborn Souls.

[kalos72]

In my game, epic level empire building in FR, I have allowed alot as it relates to the use of SIMS.

I have houseruled, they are constructs, keep ALL the originals memories/skills and can expend XP for items or spells.

Also, I have created a psionic version that allows the manifester to either change the physical features specifically or set to a random appearance of the same race/sex as the original. That power also gives the manifester the option of the SIM to keep the original memories or mind blank them away. We can also redistribute any skills/feats as desired at creation.

Our SIMS get half level/HD but all the originals powers unless specifically tied to a level.

This new idea, is all about creating as "real" a person as we can starting with a SIM as a base. Once the SIM of the child is created, the group would convert the child to a human as the previous thread described. After receiving modifiers like Telepathic Bond and the like...

Then that child would grow up, being a full "person" now, able to grow and learn, would grow up in the Church. Being trained/educated as needed.

Side question, what other spells powers would I be able to apply to the SIM to boost its stats/abilities? I am thinking straight stat boosters but am open to anything...Sirine's Grace was one that came up. Any way to search for spells/powers that boost stats straight?

[Segev]

My own rulings and assumptions re: simulacra are that the are illusions, philosophical zombies, and static in terms of things like aging and any sort of development. They are not people; they just fake it well there is no “there” there. They are no more real than a character in a dating simulation; they just have far more depth of response possible.

A simulacrum of a child remains a child forever, until destroyed.

A simulacrum never “realizes” it is a simulacrum because it never realizes anything. It can react as the original would to having its nature demnostrated, but It’s fake. And if it’s creator orders it to do something, it does. No internal nature or desires interfere. If ordered to forget it’s a simulacrum, it acts like it forgot.

[noob]

My own rulings and assumptions re: simulacra are that the are illusions, philosophical zombies, and static in terms of things like aging and any sort of development. They are not people; they just fake it well there is no “there” there. They are no more real than a character in a dating simulation; they just have far more depth of response possible.

A simulacrum of a child remains a child forever, until destroyed.

A simulacrum never “realizes” it is a simulacrum because it never realizes anything. It can react as the original would to having its nature demnostrated, but It’s fake. And if it’s creator orders it to do something, it does. No internal nature or desires interfere. If ordered to forget it’s a simulacrum, it acts like it forgot.
I think that If the only way I can spot a simulacrum from an human is that it does not age and/or it looks a bit odd but that it acts exactly like an human otherwise I would consider it human.
I mean if some human stopped aging and did look odd you would probably not tell that person "you are not human"
so I would consider human a simulacrum that did receive the order "act like an human" or some equivalent(or that did not receive any order if you assume that it spontaneously acts like the thing it is copying unless ordered.

[kalos72]

Casting time: We got around that by making our first sims Djinn and having them use their WISH SU for power stones of the improve SIM power.

Yes, if you left the SIM a SIM it would not grow old. But turning the SIM into a living creature, they begin to age as normal. So make a SIM child, turn him into a living being and then he grows up as a human child would, only under the guidance of the Church.

[unseenmage]

Casting time: We got around that by making our first sims Djinn and having them use their WISH SU for power stones of the improve SIM power.

Yes, if you left the SIM a SIM it would not grow old. But turning the SIM into a living creature, they begin to age as normal. So make a SIM child, turn him into a living being and then he grows up as a human child would, only under the guidance of the Church.

They're already a living creature so long as the creature you're copying was alive. Being alive ir not is part of the type traits, and sims retain the original's type.

[kalos72]

They're already a living creature so long as the creature you're copying was alive. Being alive ir not is part of the type traits, and sims retain the original's type.

We had ruled them as Constructs, mostly so we can buff them and by living I mean real, aging, food/sleep requiring people. Plus we can customize them through skills/feats as needed.

[unseenmage]

We had ruled them as Constructs, mostly so we can buff them and by living I mean real, aging, food/sleep requiring people. Plus we can customize them through skills/feats as needed.

Yeah, as written sims age and starve and sleep and everything their appropriate type requires.


But if your group made them Constructs... Incarnate Construct from Savage Species and/or Greater Humanoid Essence from Races of Eberron could be useful.

[kalos72]

Yeah, as written sims age and starve and sleep and everything their appropriate type requires.


But if your group made them Constructs... Incarnate Construct from Savage Species and/or Greater Humanoid Essence from Races of Eberron could be useful.

Yep! You helped me through that part last time too. :)

Now if there was an easy way to search through all the spells that I could buff the SIM with to increase stats before I incarnate them...but then I would have children with 29 STR. Hmmmm.....

[unseenmage]

Yep! You helped me through that part last time too. :)

Now if there was an easy way to search through all the spells that I could buff the SIM with to increase stats before I incarnate them...but then I would have children with 29 STR. Hmmmm.....

Beware for down that path lies madness.

I strongly recommend that only buffs with a duration of Instantaneous be allowed to persist through the templating process if at all.

That or consider the normal duration of the magics will end even if the creature is somehow changed.

[Segev]

I think that If the only way I can spot a simulacrum from an human is that it does not age and/or it looks a bit odd but that it acts exactly like an human otherwise I would consider it human.
I mean if some human stopped aging and did look odd you would probably not tell that person "you are not human"
so I would consider human a simulacrum that did receive the order "act like an human" or some equivalent(or that did not receive any order if you assume that it spontaneously acts like the thing it is copying unless ordered.

In real life, where we have no deontological knowledge to work from, you'd have a reasonable point. The whole purpose of the "philosophical zombie" concept is to get at the impossibility of determining, outside of observed behaviors, the sentience/sapience/personhood of a being. Therefore, in-setting, as well, for those who don't have means of looking for minds/souls via magic, it would be nearly impossible to determine if a simulacrum (even once identified as a magically-created copy) were a person in its own right, or not.

However, I am speaking as a DM/creator of the setting, and while I will certainly allow that this is not how it works in another DM's games, I will suggest it to any who haven't given it much thought. As such, with that deontological capacity to simply declare it so, I am stating that there is a difference between a "person" and a "philosophical zombie." The stimulus-response is extremely convincing (at least to the point of requiring penetrating a Disguise check that got a +10 bonus for impersonating the original person to notice anything "off"), but at no point is the simulacrum more self-aware than a motion detector tied to an auto-turret.

Those with the right kind of detection capabilities (magical or otherwise) to actually sense life force, souls, minds, etc. woud find all are missing. They're illusory, and as illusions, they're convincing, but they don't have the core person-ness to actually feel, dream, want, etc.

I'm not disputing that you should err on the side of it looking like a duck, quacking like a duck, and thus likely being a duck, if you lack the deontological knowledge that it's actually a hard-light holoprojector tied to a duck simulator. What I'm saying here, is that my recommendation is to utilize your absolute knowledge as the creator of your fiction to make the simulacrum a philosophical zombie. Make it not real, and the only emotional pain that really exists be that of those who interact with it.



As a side note, this means that a character who has emotional feelings for a simulacrum and can't let go of the notion of it as a person could be motivated to go on a quest to MAKE its mind real and GIVE it a soul, etc., and that this would make for an interesting quest. Heck, it's more or less the villainous motivation for Firagne, the first major arc boss in Shakugan no Shana.

[unseenmage]

Yep! You helped me through that part last time too. :)

...
Huh, just re-read that thread. Had completely forgotten that one.

As far as populating a city with Simulacrum...
One of my old ideas was to stealthfully install magic trap gateways/door frames in a neighboring city with Simulacrum and Greater Teleport/Plane Shift attached so that whenever folk pass through a Sim of that NPC appears in my city.

Expensive and what you get copies of can be random but to me that's half the fun.

[kalos72]

Yeah, one thought we had was to just sim people from other worlds Greyhawk, Athas, Dragonlance etc and just move them to ours. But we didnt like any of the ways we could close the memory gaps.

A "person" goes to sleep in Greyhawk, wakes up in Toril. WTF?

We were going to just stick to Diplomacy cheese and Fanatic people away...use the Orphanages as a way to fill needed roles.

[unseenmage]

How about population via time travel? Use history books and/or divination to find large-ish groups of people on the verge of death and save them. Teleport Through Time has an associated web article detailing temporal gateways.

Pompeii and Krypton come to mind. Natural disaster victims, etc. Use a mass version of clone or something to leave "corpses" behind and viola. Instant citizens who're grateful for being saved from death.

[kalos72]

Thats a GREAT setup man, thanks! Imagine the plot hook there? Go back in time and save the ruling family of Ammarindar and have them restart their kingdom under Neverwinter!

I imagine some people would take issue though, saving people that should have died years ago...and whatever that might do to the future state of things maybe? A Back to the Future effect type thing...

I suppose we could Fanatic a large merchant house in Greyhawk, convince them to come to Toril. Then SIM them and take the SIMS, awaken them and bam. The Fanatic will wear off on the originals and we just stay good friends... :)

[unseenmage]

Thats a GREAT setup man, thanks! Imagine the plot hook there? Go back in time and save the ruling family of Ammarindar and have them restart their kingdom under Neverwinter!

I imagine some people would take issue though, saving people that should have died years ago...and whatever that might do to the future state of things maybe? A Back to the Future effect type thing...

I suppose we could Fanatic a large merchant house in Greyhawk, convince them to come to Toril. Then SIM them and take the SIMS, awaken them and bam. The Fanatic will wear off on the originals and we just stay good friends... :)
There's also the gods and afterlife to contend with. Yanking the soon-to-be-deceased from their own worlds and cosmologies might wind up aggravating their home pantheons for various reasons.

IIRC the Faerun deities who stole populations from other worlds occasionally made bargains with those people's native deities afterwards.

[Bronk]

There's also the gods and afterlife to contend with. Yanking the soon-to-be-deceased from their own worlds and cosmologies might wind up aggravating their home pantheons for various reasons.

IIRC the Faerun deities who stole populations from other worlds occasionally made bargains with those people's native deities afterwards.

Ooo, you might get targeted by a succession of Marut Inevitables as well, those are always fun to deal with.

[unseenmage]

Ooo, you might get targeted by a succession of Marut Inevitables as well, those are always fun to deal with.
Or worse, a custom Inevitable built to deal with Dr. Walter Bishop-esque (Fringe) or Professor Maximillian Arturo (Sliders) reality hopping criminals!

[kalos72]

Ooo, you might get targeted by a succession of Marut Inevitables as well, those are always fun to deal with.

Drop a bunch of these in Warlock's Crypt and see the lich's get roasted...

The more I talk it through, the more I like Fanatic a group, sim them and then let the fanatic wear off. OR just go with Fanatic...its pretty much RAW anyways. Use the kids for custom NPC's to fit the need...