When do you use the Battlemaster's superiority dice?

[Unoriginal]

I'm doing a class analysis, and not being the most familiar with how the Battlemaster work in the field (ie I've seen it played once), I got to ask:

In which occasions do people usually spend their superiority dice, in your experience?

When there is one big obvious threat? When they get hurt in the encounter? Whenever they can even against mooks?


EDIT:


The Battlemaster in question would be melee, no feat, 7th level and with Trip, Menacing, Riposte and Precision as manoeuvres.

[Misterwhisper]

I'm doing a class analysis, and not being the most familiar with how the Battlemaster work in the field (ie I've seen it played once), I got to ask:

In which occasions do people usually spend their superiority dice, in your experience?

When there is one big obvious threat? When they get hurt in the encounter? Whenever they can even against mooks?

Really depends on ranged or melee and if they have one of the -5/+10 feats.

If they have GWM/ss then most of the time it is used on precision strike to turn a miss into a hit. That is what most damage seekers do.

The more tactical way is dependent on the enemy.

Battlemaster makes a better archer than a melee in my opinion.
Menacing shot used by an archer really screws over melee based enemies. Shoot them at range and make them frightened, now they can’t close on you and they also have disadvantage on their attacks.

Shooting the enemy in melee range with your melee teammates with a shot to prone them before your teammates turn is also great.

Disarm works the same way, disarm them, a teammate grabs their weapon.

Ideally you can spend them when you crit the attack which makes them like a tiny smite.

Battlemaster is the field tacticians class.

[torrmh]

Another big one is using Riposte with sneak attack if the Battlemaster is multiclassed to Rogue, since sneak attack only is limited to once per turn, not once per round.

Trip attack is also one for the melee damage seekers, as a prone enemy gives advantage on attack rolls, making it easier to hit with GWM attacks.

EDIT: Typo.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry, I'll give some precision:

The Battlemaster in question would be melee, no feat, 7th level and with Trip, Menacing, Riposte and Precision as manoeuvre.

[Azgeroth]

so my typical use of SD was in the following scenarios

1. i know the party is about to take a short rest, so i just blast them all out to raise my damage output and end the encounter sooner.

2. use trip attack / commanders strike to give the rogue an opportunity to do more damage than i could.

3. use trip attack to limit the movement of an enemy to allow a party member to retreat more safely.

4. use as a damage boost on bigger/key enemies.

TL;DR

i use them for tactical advantage for the party, usually assisting the rogue or aiding squishes in being to move away to a distance the enemy can't close in a single turn. or if i know this is the last encounter before a short rest, a boss fight, or things are going poorly i'll spam them out.

EDIT : just spotted you specified menacing, riposte and precision... i didn't take riposte and precision simply because its better for me to let the rogue attack than it is for me to attack, menacing strike would be useful to help allies get away in the same way i used trip attack, though i cant recall which of the other manoeuvres i took... i think one was disarming strike, and the other may well have been precision. but as above, i only ever used trip / commanders

[djreynolds]

I'm doing a class analysis, and not being the most familiar with how the Battlemaster work in the field (ie I've seen it played once), I got to ask:

In which occasions do people usually spend their superiority dice, in your experience?

When there is one big obvious threat? When they get hurt in the encounter? Whenever they can even against mooks?


EDIT:


The Battlemaster in question would be melee, no feat, 7th level and with Trip, Menacing, Riposte and Precision as manoeuvres.

Menacing is awesome, its basically the fear spell. But its based on your attack stat for the save. While a monk uses wisdom for stunning fist or a paladin uses charisma for hold person, use you strength or dexterity, your choice.

At low levels, I used menacing to split up some hobgoblins. By doing so they lost that extra damage by being next to one another

Precision, it great, even if you need to hit. Some giant with 5hp and their turn right after yours, still hits as hard as max health. Obviously it's great for GWM or SS, but any scenario needing you just hit.

Disarm can be used possibly versus an enemy to have drop it's arcane focus, not just a weapon, but an object.

Riposte, requires them to attack and miss. It's a great maneuver.

Maneuvers can be used a smites, I guess. You can use trip attack on every strike... even if you've already tripped them.

Menacing is useable any time you have an enemy too strong to drop quickly. Hobgoblin has an 18 A.C., that's no joke to hit. And a group of them can be lethal. But if you could break up a line of them, you can delay that martial advantage til they move again.

Theoretically, a strength based fighter could use a longbow with dexterity, but, force a save based using their strength as part of the DC. It says your choice, not the ability modifier used to hit.

Also, grab the martial adept feat, because that die also increases, in time you can have 7d12 superiority dice.

[Damon_Tor]

I like to intentionally provoke opportunity attacks just so I can riposte when they miss.

[Aett_Thorn]

My Battlemaster has Goading Attack, Rally, and Maneuvering Attack. I use Goading when I hit and want to make the BBEG have to attack me. I use Rally if an ally is hurting and needs help. I use Maneuvering Attack if an ally is going to be in for a beating if they don't get away. Just hit 7th level as a BM, and I'll probably pick up Commander's Strike to help out the Rogue in the group on occasion, and Precision Attack for when I really need to hit.

[Phoenix042]

I'm doing a class analysis, and not being the most familiar with how the Battlemaster work in the field (ie I've seen it played once), I got to ask:

In which occasions do people usually spend their superiority dice, in your experience?

When there is one big obvious threat? When they get hurt in the encounter? Whenever they can even against mooks?


EDIT:


The Battlemaster in question would be melee, no feat, 7th level and with Trip, Menacing, Riposte and Precision as manoeuvres.

I have actually seen three battlemasters in play in three VERY different games and also played one, a 7th level "support fighter" style character with a sword-and-shield setup that was immensely fun. In another game, I DM for a high level group that includes a battlemaster using a two-hander.

So yea, I have experience.

As a very general rule, I try to ration maneuver dice for moments when I think they'll have the most impact, but I typically use one or two in every fight.

It's really, REALLY nice to have a maneuver die in your pocket when you crit. Since you get to wait until you see the die, that lets you throw those damage dice down when they'll be doubled by the crit. So that's pretty neat.

With the THF, she would almost never use a superiority die to add damage to an attack unless it was a crit, because she was saving them to turn misses into hits with the GWM feat. Occasionally, she'd use riposte (often provoking an AoO on her turn for the extra attack) when she really needed damage done NOW, not later, such as if a foe was about to escape or cast a really big spell or something.

Fighters get lots of attacks, and even with the max number of dice (6 I think, if you grab the feat), you're going to be making most of your attacks without their benefit.

In general I'd say one or two dice per fight. If you know you're about to rest after this fight, go ahead and burn them all, or if some super tough encounter starts unexpectedly you may just want to go nova and start throwing dice around.

Regardless, the fact that they even have that type of resource and decision to manage in each fight is what makes the battlemaster such a profoundly satisfying class to play.

My "support fighter' character had rally (used every morning and before short rests), which stacked nicely with second wind as an out-of-combat buff/regen feature. She also had and frequently used commander's strike, which allowed our assassin / THF vengeance paladin to make an extra off-turn attack, often a really big deal.

She also happened to have a sword that literally doubled all her superiority dice (so she'd roll 2d8 instead of 1d8 for her maneuvers), which was freaking powerful even if it wasn't nearly as much damage overall as a straight +1d6 fire damage or something like that. It meant her uses of Rally were sometimes a really big deal, and the effect even worked with commander's strike so her assassin's off-turn surprise round attack was actually deadlier than her normal surprise round.

In one memorable fight, my team (me and the assassin) did over 100 damage to a hydra on just my turn. (I rolled a crit, and the assassin auto-crit).

Good luck!

[strangebloke]

With all short rest features, I think the best strategy is to use them as soon as its possible, unless you're certain that there's going to be more than one encounter before then next short rest.

At least, that's what works well for the more strategic players at my table. So its going to be very dependent on pacing.

EDIT: Why does no one remember to use bardic inspiration?

[MaxWilson]

This is a version of the Secretary Problem. Ideally you want to spend them at the beginning of the hardest fight you're going to have--since strength of a combat force grows roughly as the 3/2 power of its size, you want to spend your dice to degrade the largest force for the largest impact. But you don't know which one will be the largest until you've already done them all.

Anyway, a good rule of thumb could be to spend two dice at the first good opportunity of every fight, e.g. the first two misses with Sharpshooter get Precise Strike, or the first two hits get Menacing Strike, or a combination of both. Spend more if you suspect what you're still facing at that point is still the toughest fight you're going to have before the next rest.

There is no real point in spending dice to finish off a weak foe quickly, but there is great value in turning a strong foe into a merely strongish foe.

[Keravath]

With all short rest features, I think the best strategy is to use them as soon as its possible, unless you're certain that there's going to be more than one encounter before then next short rest.

At least, that's what works well for the more strategic players at my table. So its going to be very dependent on pacing.

EDIT: Why does no one remember to use bardic inspiration?

I always ask myself that! Especially when I am playing my lore bard ... "Wait! I could have used cutting words on that one!" Ooops

[Malifice]

I'm doing a class analysis, and not being the most familiar with how the Battlemaster work in the field (ie I've seen it played once), I got to ask:

In which occasions do people usually spend their superiority dice, in your experience?

When there is one big obvious threat? When they get hurt in the encounter? Whenever they can even against mooks?


EDIT:


The Battlemaster in question would be melee, no feat, 7th level and with Trip, Menacing, Riposte and Precision as manoeuvres.

When you absolutely have to land that GWM strike, precise strike.

When your opponent is badly wounded, and misses with his first swing, riposte.

[CTurbo]

Riposte is by far my favorite for melee.

For Archers, tripping attack, disarming attack, and the one the makes who you hit have disadvantage against anybody but you which is great when they're standing next to your meat shields.

[NiklasWB]

I have a multiclassed Battle master 5 / Swashbuckler 3, with Precision Attack, Disarming Attack and Riposte.

I use them the following way:

If an enemy misses me: try to Riposte (for extra damage and sneak attack out of turn)
If I miss both my attacks (extra attack): Precision attack (to try to at least get one attack this round, and sneak attack)
If an enemy has an item that is very useful (mcguffin, shield, powerful weapon): Disarming attack (we also house rule that the item is moved 10 feet from the holder, so opportunity attacks is an issue if they want to retrieve it).

I plan on taking Menacing Attack and Pushing Attack next time I get to pick Maneuvers. Trip Attack may also be taken later levels.

Worth noting is that I seldom find myself saving my superiority dice. I thought I would, but since they are all returned on a short rest I often feel like it is always worth using them all up during every fight (unless it is a simple bar brawl or something).

[Zalabim]

This is a version of the Secretary Problem.
Of course I had to look this up. Short story shorter, (Wikipedia) "selects the single best candidate about 37% of the time." This explains so much about hiring and secretaries.

There is no real point in spending dice to finish off a weak foe quickly, but there is great value in turning a strong foe into a merely strongish foe.
If your total HP are limited, and are the limit for your adventure, then I'd say that actually finishing off a weakened foe is worthwhile, while merely dealing extra damage to a strong foe is meaningless. That is to say, use of dice only have meaning if they actually reduce the amount of HP you lose, or have the greatest potential to. So dealing an extra 15 damage to an enemy, but not potentially reducing the number or effectiveness of turns it eventually takes (because your turn is first in the party, for example), is less meaningful than dealing an extra 4 damage to an enemy that denies that enemy its very next turn (because your turn is immediately before it). Of course, that's a big If right up front, too. A lot of parties aren't worried about their HP, in practice.

[beargryllz]

Early and often

I very often use them all within the first round, reaction and 2nd round

Instantly killing or disabling and then severely punishing immediately afterwards rapidly turns the encounter from dangerous to trivial

If you do a short rest with leftover dice to spare, you're likely not playing a fighter optimally

Use them constantly. Use them all at once

[MaxWilson]

Of course I had to look this up. Short story shorter, (Wikipedia) "selects the single best candidate about 37% of the time." This explains so much about hiring and secretaries.

In real life, hiring secretaries isn't really a Secretary Problem, since you aren't restricted from re-hiring old secretaries or talking to a candidate's past employers. Selling stock, however, is almost an ideal a Secretary Problem, because not only does the opportunity to sell stock at today's price vanish forever if not used, but you also have no real idea what the stock price will be tomorrow. (I.e. you don't know the shape of the probability distribution for "secretaries", i.e. stock prices.) If you do know the shape of the distribution then you can do much better than 37%; 37% is only for when you're completely in the dark, i.e. Secretary Problem.

Similarly, once you get a feel for a given DM's adventure-writing style, it may cease to be a Secretary Problem.


If your total HP are limited, and are the limit for your adventure, then I'd say that actually finishing off a weakened foe is worthwhile, while merely dealing extra damage to a strong foe is meaningless. That is to say, use of dice only have meaning if they actually reduce the amount of HP you lose, or have the greatest potential to. So dealing an extra 15 damage to an enemy, but not potentially reducing the number or effectiveness of turns it eventually takes (because your turn is first in the party, for example), is less meaningful than dealing an extra 4 damage to an enemy that denies that enemy its very next turn (because your turn is immediately before it). Of course, that's a big If right up front, too. A lot of parties aren't worried about their HP, in practice.

I agree, and I acknowledge your point about HP granularity and that a killing an orc can be better than reducing a Fire Elemental from 100 HP to 85 HP, but I think we're talking about slightly different things. By "strong foe" I meant strong group of monsters, and I think you're talking about a strong individual monster within a group.

If there are 4 7th level PCs and you're in a fight and (Secretary Problem assumption) you don't know how many more fights there will be before you can rest or what their difficulty will be, there is more value in spending superiority dice if you're in a tough fight (say, an Abominable Yeti) than if you're in an easy fight (a Wraith and an Ogre Zombie) because killing the Wraith e.g. half a round sooner will save you half the damage of (Wraith + Ogre Zombie), call it 10 HP saved, which is smaller than the amount of HP the Abominable Yeti is likely to inflict over the equivalent half-round (could easily save 20-30 HP). And of course you can spend your superiority dice in other ways than just inflicting damage, e.g. potentially Menacing the Yeti to prevent it from getting into melee range to auto-crit a PC after it paralyzes it, potentially saving about 50-70 HP of damage depending on that PC's AC.

If you spend your dice on the Wraith fight and then have to fight the Yeti without them, you'll lose more HP than if you do it the other way around. Agreed?