How to handle NPCs resurrections

[Selion]

Once hit the 12th level wall, a lot of issues come which could be overlooked before.
I'm arranging the next adventure, the villains will be servants of powerful entities. The problem is that death is not anymore a permanent status, most excuses like a villain not wanting to resurrect a servant who has failed him won't last long.
It already has happened that the group oracle used "quest" on a npc to prevent that another death npc would be questioned, but I wouldn't encourage my players to find ways to soul trap constantly their defeated foes.
Burning them, OK. Hiding their corpses, OK. Raising them as undead to kill them again, NOPE.
What about when true resurrection will come into play?

[tomandtish]

When ruling on Raise Dead/Resurrection/etc., it is important to remember one of the most important parts of the spell...


In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return.

Those two bolded parts allow a DM to pretty much deny a successful casting for anyone but a PC.

Good persons have reached their ideal plane of existence. They may not want to return. Alternatively, the deity(s) over that plane may have use for them. "Sorry, you can't call back this NPC Paladin. I'm sending him elsewhere".

Evil beings might be more willing to return but may not be free. Depending on their actions, they may be under the control of an evil deity, demon, etc. Even if they are free, they may still feel the consequences of returning are worse than staying where they are.

[unseenmage]

Also, it's expensive. Gold doesnt grow on trees after all.

[Quertus]

The soul must be free.

Souls have a listed value.

Ergo, resurrection is impossible.

And you can't just pull souls out of a Spell Component Pouch. :smalltongue:

[Bronk]

The soul must be free.

Souls have a listed value.

Ergo, resurrection is impossible.

And you can't just pull souls out of a Spell Component Pouch. :smalltongue:

Hah! Nice.


As for the evil henchmen NPCs, on top of everything else I think there'd be a better than average chance that they wouldn't want to reenter that particular workforce...

[tyckspoon]

There needs to be some creature or power able and desiring to cast the necessary spells, and then the creature to be returned must be available to resurrect. There are several ways to trap souls (killing your enemies with a thinaun special material weapon is one of the more readily accessible and less evil-feeling ways) or they can be damaged in a way that makes resurrection more difficult, such as feeding them to a barghest. Physically, Raise Dead and Resurrection require an intact body or a part thereof, so something like burning or Disintegrating the body and then removing or scattering the ashes can make that much more difficult. By the time True Resurrection hits, you pretty much have to resort to soul trapping or feeding the victims into a Sphere of Annihilation.. or, you can work with one of the weirder traits of a classic spell:

Flesh To Stone (and some of its variant family, like Flesh To Salt) effectively disable their victims, very much like being dead. However, the spells specifically state the the victims are not dead, and thus can't be Resurrected. Turn the guy you want to get rid of into a salt statue, then throw him in a lake or something. His corporeal form is scattered and near impossible to recover in order to transmute him back, and he's not officially dead. Sure, somebody might put in the effort to Wish or Miracle the body back together, but at the point people are employing that level of work to get somebody back you pretty much have to resort to soul trapping/destruction to stop them.

[Clistenes]

At 12 level you can cast Animate Dead and Baleful Polymorph. Animate your important slain foes as Zombies, Baleful Polymorph them into snails, carry them around in a jar...

If you can cast 6th level spells, you an use Create Undead instead, and create a Ghoul.

While True Resurrection can bring the undead back to real life, I think it requires that you slay the undead first...

Use this trick only on bosses. Powerful people will always find more minions, anyways...

Of course, a DM may argue that Zombies and Ghouls don't keep the soul of the original creature, so True Resurrection can bring them back just fine...

[Deophaun]

There is nothing that says that it is anything more than a tiny minority of souls who, upon reaching the afterlife, wish to return. It could be as simple as violent death being so traumatic to the soul that most would never want to risk experiencing it again. It's only the truly exceptional and driven souls that heed the call to return. Even then, death changes your priorities.

Basically, it depends on how you've been playing it up till this point. If they've been able to rez random dirt farmers, the above's a tough sell. Meanwhile, if kings have been assassinated and stayed that way, that lends credence to the afterlife having a tight grip.

[King of Nowhere]

You could embrace the resurrection concept, and build around it.

Sure, those villains you are killing now will return. However, you looted their bodies, so they will return with lesser equipment. Makes your players feel they achived something, and turns adventuring into more of an attrition war. at some point, the villain could be defeated simply because he doesn't have resources anymore - high level minions don't grow on trees.

My campaign world works like that. Everybody agreed on a "no inflicting fate worse than death to your enemies" on pain of similar retaliation, and that excludes pretty much any way to prevent resurrection - short of old age. The campaign revolves around conflict among different groups of power, and the party fight against multiple npcs with the ultimate objective to deal enough damage to their faction that they won't be able to keep up. raising and reequipping all those people is damn expensive in the long run. Sometimes you can defeat one such organization by killing their central base of power, but it's virtually impossible without weakening them first.

Advantages include that I can prolong a conflict, or cut it short, more or less at my will, and in a way that will not break immersion; I can throw difficult fights without worrying of tpk, even if it happens their allies will raise the party, they'll just lose their best gear; and I can recycle recurring npcs, getting away with lazyness :smallbiggrin:
though I'm planning, as the conflict grows more heated, to reach the point where somebody will start to soul bind

[Selion]

When ruling on Raise Dead/Resurrection/etc., it is important to remember one of the most important parts of the spell...

Those two bolded parts allow a DM to pretty much deny a successful casting for anyone but a PC.

Good persons have reached their ideal plane of existence. They may not want to return. Alternatively, the deity(s) over that plane may have use for them. "Sorry, you can't call back this NPC Paladin. I'm sending him elsewhere".

Evil beings might be more willing to return but may not be free. Depending on their actions, they may be under the control of an evil deity, demon, etc. Even if they are free, they may still feel the consequences of returning are worse than staying where they are.

This will be my main argument on the subject, thank you. Luckily i still haven't used still this tool in my story, so this approach is coherent.


There needs to be some creature or power able and desiring to cast the necessary spells, and then the creature to be returned must be available to resurrect. There are several ways to trap souls (killing your enemies with a thinaun special material weapon is one of the more readily accessible and less evil-feeling ways) or they can be damaged in a way that makes resurrection more difficult, such as feeding them to a barghest. Physically, Raise Dead and Resurrection require an intact body or a part thereof, so something like burning or Disintegrating the body and then removing or scattering the ashes can make that much more difficult. By the time True Resurrection hits, you pretty much have to resort to soul trapping or feeding the victims into a Sphere of Annihilation.. or, you can work with one of the weirder traits of a classic spell:

Flesh To Stone (and some of its variant family, like Flesh To Salt) effectively disable their victims, very much like being dead. However, the spells specifically state the the victims are not dead, and thus can't be Resurrected. Turn the guy you want to get rid of into a salt statue, then throw him in a lake or something. His corporeal form is scattered and near impossible to recover in order to transmute him back, and he's not officially dead. Sure, somebody might put in the effort to Wish or Miracle the body back together, but at the point people are employing that level of work to get somebody back you pretty much have to resort to soul trapping/destruction to stop them.

I'll think about the weapon, it would fit thematically with a PC. As i said, i'm ok with destroying bodies to make resurrection more difficult, i just don't want that the game become too much munchkinous with soul trapping used as a standard operating procedure like looting bodies.


You could embrace the resurrection concept, and build around it.

Sure, those villains you are killing now will return. However, you looted their bodies, so they will return with lesser equipment. Makes your players feel they achived something, and turns adventuring into more of an attrition war. at some point, the villain could be defeated simply because he doesn't have resources anymore - high level minions don't grow on trees.

My campaign world works like that. Everybody agreed on a "no inflicting fate worse than death to your enemies" on pain of similar retaliation, and that excludes pretty much any way to prevent resurrection - short of old age. The campaign revolves around conflict among different groups of power, and the party fight against multiple npcs with the ultimate objective to deal enough damage to their faction that they won't be able to keep up. raising and reequipping all those people is damn expensive in the long run. Sometimes you can defeat one such organization by killing their central base of power, but it's virtually impossible without weakening them first.

Advantages include that I can prolong a conflict, or cut it short, more or less at my will, and in a way that will not break immersion; I can throw difficult fights without worrying of tpk, even if it happens their allies will raise the party, they'll just lose their best gear; and I can recycle recurring npcs, getting away with lazyness :smallbiggrin:
though I'm planning, as the conflict grows more heated, to reach the point where somebody will start to soul bind

I won't use this approach, because it would change the theme of my campaign, but i find it extremely realistic in a high fantasy setting.

[ShurikVch]

Gold doesnt grow on trees after all.Actually, it does (https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/169292-money-does-grow-on-trees-gold-found-in-tree-leaves-points-to-hidden-underground-deposits):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9EKAH20exY

[Uncle Pine]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419197-And-Stay-Out-A-Guide-to-Staying-Dead-(for-the-other-guy)) appears to be what you're looking for. Several of the suggested solutions could work just fine for a Good/Neutral party.

[Selion]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419197-And-Stay-Out-A-Guide-to-Staying-Dead-(for-the-other-guy)) appears to be what you're looking for. Several of the suggested solutions could work just fine for a Good/Neutral party.

I never said morality was an issue :)
By the way, the evil guy in the party is not that much into the rules, he's more the narrative player, so i think a custom item would work better with him, unless he come to a solution himself, exactly as he did with the "Quest" spell, which resulted in an immensely evil act (the spell has been cast silent and still and the message has been brought telepathically, so the vessel didn't even know who messed with his mind and he's currently in a cellar in the grip of insanity)

[Clistenes]

You could embrace the resurrection concept, and build around it.

Sure, those villains you are killing now will return. However, you looted their bodies, so they will return with lesser equipment. Makes your players feel they achived something, and turns adventuring into more of an attrition war. at some point, the villain could be defeated simply because he doesn't have resources anymore - high level minions don't grow on trees.

My campaign world works like that. Everybody agreed on a "no inflicting fate worse than death to your enemies" on pain of similar retaliation, and that excludes pretty much any way to prevent resurrection - short of old age. The campaign revolves around conflict among different groups of power, and the party fight against multiple npcs with the ultimate objective to deal enough damage to their faction that they won't be able to keep up. raising and reequipping all those people is damn expensive in the long run. Sometimes you can defeat one such organization by killing their central base of power, but it's virtually impossible without weakening them first.

Advantages include that I can prolong a conflict, or cut it short, more or less at my will, and in a way that will not break immersion; I can throw difficult fights without worrying of tpk, even if it happens their allies will raise the party, they'll just lose their best gear; and I can recycle recurring npcs, getting away with lazyness :smallbiggrin:
though I'm planning, as the conflict grows more heated, to reach the point where somebody will start to soul bind

Mmm... this could discourage players from exploring and starting new stuff... Why start a new quest, if every quest adds to an ever-expanding army of hateful foes bent on ruining their lives? Why starting a business, build a castle, settle in a city, seek a throne, if they know all of those will be ruined by those foes who will never stop to come back...?

Doesn't it encourage them to become murderhobos who won't build bonds and get invested in the world?

[King of Nowhere]

Mmm... this could discourage players from exploring and starting new stuff... Why start a new quest, if every quest adds to an ever-expanding army of hateful foes bent on ruining their lives? Why starting a business, build a castle, settle in a city, seek a throne, if they now all of those will be ruined by those foes who will never stop to come back...?

Doesn't it encourage them to become murderhobos who won't build bonds and get invested in the world?

A single adventuring group, no matter how powerful, doesn't have the kind of resources to keep coming back. My big power groups are large nations, religions, and alliances of such.

I spent plenty of worldbuilding thought on the interplay between powerful adventurers and nations. A powerful adventuring group may bring a traditional nation to heel, kill any command structure. On the other hand, a large nation has financial and manpower resources that no adventuring group can muster (short of crazy level of minionmancy that are not viable at my table).
Long story short, large nations command adventuring groups, and they can protect themselves against rogue adventurers; at the same time, a nation's power is strongly dependant on how many loial high level adventurers it can muster, how much times it can resurrect and resupply them in case of death, how many it can hire.
So while adventurers cannot just walk in a throne room and dominate the king and get away with it, they still have a large influence on the workings of a nation.

It was the players who decided to tie themselves more strongly to a nation, so that they could pick up grudges against more powerful people. I didn't plan for it; I was expecting to use the whole politicking as a background.
By tieing themselves to a nation, the party has taken on a greater role in the events of the world, and therefore they got more invested in it.
And while their interests can also get damaged in the figthing, they are much better protected with the support of a large nation and its allies.
Finally, wars can be won. Inflict enough casualties on an enemy, and it will stop pestering you.

Well, I don't know how clear that was. Maybe I can explain with more detail?
I ended up writing a wall of text recapping what happened in my campaign world since the pcs decided to join with a nation. Includes even a couple of spoilers (So MRARK IF YOU READ THIS, STAY AWAY). If you want to know how I envisioned conflict to happen in a world where resurrection is easy and individuals can wreak traditional armies, and how that translates to the table (and especially to player agency) here it is

the scenario itself is not an eternal war. It was more of a cold war, with factions being suspicious of each other, and occasionally engaging in sabotage, but little open combat. The party wanted to hit the nation of Despotonia, mostly for petty reasons (despotonia being a brutal dictatorship being pretty low on the list). So they ambushed the major despotonian wizard, killed him, and took his loot, which included a major artifact.
obviously Despotonia was pissed, but the party was protected by the nation of Mirna. So they complained diplomatically, asking to be free to retaliate. Mirna had to decide if they wanted to get involved into an expensive war they did not want and may not win, or if they wanted to lose their most powerful adventuring group, and return a major artifact to an enemy nation. So they told the despotonians to suck it up. Despotonia declared war.
Despotonia's allies decided that despotonia was not attacked by an enemy nation, so they did not have to intervene (did I mention that war is expensive?). Mirna's allies decided that Mirna was the aggressor, and so they did not have to intervene. A few volunteers joined both sides, mostly paladins who enlisted with Mirna.
War was fought with teleport hit-and-run tactics, especially since the nations were distant, meaning golem armies could not be deployed. Mirna tried to burn Despotonia's cotton plantations, which were a main export revenue, while Despotonia tried to ravage mirnian tribunals (which make a large use of magic to determine truth) to cripple the nation's burocracy and capacity to keep an efficient a. Each nation had access to one or two level 15ish party, a half dozen level 10-13 parties, and a few dozens level 7-9 parties. Those, and other important personnel, would live in bunkers protected against scry and teleportation. So nations would send some of the "low" level parties around to deal some damage, while using the mid level parties to try to intercept those enemy parties and kill them. the high level parties were kept in reserve for when such a fight escalated, or sometimes used to bait the enemy mid-level parties and get them into a trap. That's how I envision a war would be fought on those premises, if there are more effective ways, they escaped me.
There were several minor clashes, one major fight where both sides tried to ambush the other that resulted mostly in a stalemate. the turning point arrived when the party managed to capture alive the most powerful despotonian combatant, a 20th level martial type who's been established as the main despotonian boss enemy (due to some houseruling and a relatively low optimization, the martial/caster divide is not so bad in my world. and that guy was better optimized than most other enemies). they also managed to loot the 17th level rogue.
The despotonians were severely crippled in their high level martial combat, as they no longer had someone to put in front of the party's barbarian. Also, allies were flocking to Mirna, as the party was calling in favors with other powerful people. Despotonia was faring badly by this point.
So the Despotonians again pled their allies for help, and this time, fearing the destruction of Despotonia and the weakening of all the alliance, the allied answered. Now Mirna was outmatched, and so Mirna's allies also joined the cause. However, since both those alliances didn't want to risk an all-out war, they forced the two warring nations to sign a peace threaty, one which was favorable to Mirna. It's also worth pointing out that there are a few secret power groups with secret plans in motion, and those that wanted peace could outmanuever those that wanted war.

What the party did at the table:
- fight a few fights against other high level opponents. Took three or four casualties total, were forced to flee against the main despotonian party, managed to defeat half of it later. They were successful because they always managed to recover the equipment when one of them died, while they got to loot bodies a few times.
- had several roleplaying encounters where they were trying to persuade other factions to wage war with them
- other roleplaying sessions where they were negotiating conditions with representatives of those secret plots.

What the party achieved (as in, direct result of their actions at the table):
- they gained two major and one minor artifact, plus some minor loot
- they persuaded an adult gold dragon to join them. she's actually a member of a secret power group with her own agenda, but she'll be loial to the party for a while, and she may remain loial with enough favorable interaction.
- they brought down an enemy: Despotonia was not fully defeat and their leaders retained power, but it was severely crippled, its most powerful pieces of equipment lost, its diamond supply depleted, its economy suffering. Despotonia can no longer wage war on its own and has basically become a protectorate under its bigger ally of Elbonia.
- the good cleric was able to insist on improvement on human rights in despotonia to be put into the peace conditions (the governments wouldn't have cared about that), making the world a better place. It was also a serious blow to the church of Hextor, the ruling power in Despotonia.
- they persuaded the isolationistic goblins to join them for loot (and because they've cultivated passable relationships with the goblins in the past), and they have now a good chance of persuading them to join their cause permanently.
- the despotonian hero is more honorable than the rest of his nation; after capturing him, the party took some effort to turn him to their side. they are more successful than they think, and the guy will switch sides after a particular piece of nastyness that his side will commit in the future.

Consequences of the war:
- Despotonia is no longer a major power
- Goblins and orcs joined the coalition of good nations (crazy world, isn't it?)
- the party became internationally famous and are now recognized as major influencers. though still subject to the mirnian government, actually the government is willing to put up with a lot in order to keep them pointed at their enemies.
- International climate is much more tense now. The players wanted to escalate the war, and I decided it wouldn't work at first (open war is in nobody's interest and the leaders on all sides are too competent), but it may happen with a few good pushes. So, they are moving the world in the direction they want.
- Despotonia still unofficially kept a large bounty on the party (2 million gold pieces, plus the party's loot which includes several artifacts), so the party has to be careful when they go out of bunkers. Unknown to them, some of those secret groups also want them dead, and they are using Despotonia as a screen to hide that it's really them. Mirna is about to put a stop on attempts on their life, though.

[ericgrau]

I'd allow it to happen freely and frequently, but besides looting the boss baddy you also take out his base, thwart his plans, etc. Any decent plot should have these things in it anyway. That's when the PCs are on the attack. Defense is another story. If you think you can defeat the reoccurring villain by slaying him and you don't question him about his leader or take out his organization, that's on you.