Sad about Suggestion

[Club Sandwich]

Hey all, I wondered if you guys could offer opinions on a specific ruling made on the Suggestion spell.

So I played with a new group the other day (I was filling in for a friend who was absent). It was all gravy. We were fighting a somewhat epic fight, which I was (in character) sneaking away from. The rest of the party were engaged fighting an insanely tough dragonborn, and only just winning. I had poked my head through a door, only to find myself face to face with a member of the dwarf's party, a nasty looking drow mercenary. Enter the suggestion spell. I had a minimum of movement left, so rather than run back down the corridor and get pursued and squished, I quickened a 'Suggestion' to tell the drow "your dragonborn friend's getting ****ed up. You need to help him out!". The DM (as is his right) didn't bother to make a saving throw for the drow, who on his next turn charged straight for me and nearly one hit killed me. Yay.

Now, the spell says the suggestion must be phrased to sound reasonable, and telling a creature to stab itself, immolate itself, or take other obviously self-injurious actions will make the spell end. The example it gives of a good suggestion is telling a knight to give his horse away, which seems to imply that it has a fair amount of power to make people act out of character and outside of their own interests.


Now to the DM's credit, he warned me that in his mind it would be hard to make suggestion work, and I'd need to make it sound very reasonable to have a chance. I cast it because I'm always down for a challenge, and I wanted to see if I could make it work. The reasons he gave for his ruling were that:
1) The drow knows that the fighter's doing his job where he is.

2) Suggestion is an out of combat spell, and doesn't really work in combat against people you're fighting.

It kind of seems that with this ruling, the suggestion spell is kind of pointless and definitely not worth a second level spell slot. The impression I got was that the DM thought it only has the power to make people do pretty much what they were going to do anyway.
Thoughts? Does telling an enemy to go and help his ally instead of attacking the caster sound reasonable to you? What would you rule in your campaign?

Sorry for the massive essay. Just as a DM myself, I find his ruling odd and definitely outside of RAW and RAI.

[Unoriginal]

Hey all, I wondered if you guys could offer opinions on a specific ruling made on the Suggestion spell.

So I played with a new group the other day (I was filling in for a friend who was absent). It was all gravy. We were fighting a somewhat epic fight, which I was (in character) sneaking away from. The rest of the party were engaged fighting an insanely tough dragonborn, and only just winning. I had poked my head through a door, only to find myself face to face with a member of the dwarf's party, a nasty looking drow mercenary. Enter the suggestion spell. I had a minimum of movement left, so rather than run back down the corridor and get pursued and squished, I quickened a 'Suggestion' to tell the drow "your dragonborn friend's getting ****ed up. You need to help him out!". The DM (as is his right) didn't bother to make a saving throw for the drow, who on his next turn charged straight for me and nearly one hit killed me. Yay.

Now, the spell says the suggestion must be phrased to sound reasonable, and telling a creature to stab itself, immolate itself, or take other obviously self-injurious actions will make the spell end. The example it gives of a good suggestion is telling a knight to give his horse away, which seems to imply that it has a fair amount of power to make people act out of character and outside of their own interests.


Now to the DM's credit, he warned me that in his mind it would be hard to make suggestion work, and I'd need to make it sound very reasonable to have a chance. I cast it because I'm always down for a challenge, and I wanted to see if I could make it work. The reasons he gave for his ruling were that:
1) The drow knows that the fighter's doing his job where he is.

2) Suggestion is an out of combat spell, and doesn't really work in combat against people you're fighting.

It kind of seems that with this ruling, the suggestion spell is kind of pointless and definitely not worth a second level spell slot. The impression I got was that the DM thought it only has the power to make people do pretty much what they were going to do anyway.
Thoughts? Does telling an enemy to go and help his ally instead of attacking the caster sound reasonable to you? What would you rule in your campaign?

Sorry for the massive essay. Just as a DM myself, I find his ruling odd and definitely outside of RAW and RAI.

"Suggestion is an out of combat spell" is straight up bs, if the DM is implying that's what the rules say. As long as the Suggested person isn't harmed after you've charmed them, the Suggestion work. If that's one of their houserules, which they have the right to make as they wish, the DM should say so before you use it and not make you waste your turn, your spell slots, and your sorcery points.

Personally, I think "The drow knows that the fighter's doing his job where he is" isn't a reasonable argument either. The Knight knows that giving the horse isn't a good idea, either. Suggestion makes you *believe* it's a good suggestion, and "you need to help a fighter" isn't unreasonable or even harmful. It's not like you were an active threat.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I quickened a 'Suggestion' to tell the drow "your dragonborn friend's getting ****ed up. You need to help him out!". The DM (as is his right) didn't bother to make a saving throw for the drow, who on his next turn charged straight for me and nearly one hit killed me. Yay.

Thoughts? Does telling an enemy to go and help his ally instead of attacking the caster sound reasonable to you? What would you rule in your campaign?

I've done something very, very similar in combat (I think I told one combatant that the castle gate was open and unguarded, and our allies would soon walk right in). The soldier failed his save, and off he went.

Your Suggestion sounded quite reasonable to me, and should have had a chance to work. The only question I'd have is one of interpretation: if the drow already knew that you were one of the group attacking the dragonborn, he could reasonably decide that he was helping the dragonborn out by attacking you.

So, yeah. Your DM unreasonably nerfed the spell based upon his lame explanation.

[Club Sandwich]

the DM should say so before you use it and not make you waste your turn, your spell slots, and your sorcery points.

I'm not too concerned about that, since they did give a fair amount of warning that 'this probably won't work'. My sadness is more about a level 2 spell being reinterpreted to basically being the same power level as the 'friends' cantrip.

But yeah, your thoughts are the same as mine.

[NaughtyTiger]

Man, that is a great suggestion.

IF the DM had followed Guy Lombard-o's reasoning... attacking you IS helping my buddy. sure, but he just hosed you arbitrarily.

[Contrast]

It may be worth pointing out to your DM that he just made Suggestion worse than Command. I would also point out Charm Person says you get advantage on the save if you're fighting the person at the time, Suggestion doesn't say that.

It's also worth stressing the thing has to sound reasonable, not necessarily be reasonable. A knight isn't just going to spend the next 8 hours walking around town trying to give away his horse to a random beggar - this is magic, not a persuade check. He may well know the fighter is doing his job...until you magically forced a seed of doubt into his mind.

Would your DM rule that an enemy ignored the Hold Person spell because they were really strong and he felt that they could just fight through the effects?

You get a couple of sentences so you can try and fluff it up a little to offer additional justification. The path of least resistance of course would be just asking your DM if you can swap out the spell now you know how they're going to rule it.

[Club Sandwich]

The only question I'd have is one of interpretation: if the drow already knew that you were one of the group attacking the dragonborn, he could reasonably decide that he was helping the dragonborn out by attacking you.

That's a very fair point you raise. And if the drow had even bothered to make a save, that might have been a reasonable course of action.

[Aetis]

All the fairness aside, if the DM warned you "it would be very difficult to make it work", then he probably didn't feel comfortable working with the spell's original intent, and you were almost certainly better off looking for an alternative solution.

[Club Sandwich]

I would also point out Charm Person says you get advantage on the save if you're fighting the person at the time, Suggestion doesn't say that.
Ahh that is a very useful bit of supporting evidence! I think his impression of it being meant for out of combat situations is in part due to suggestion's long duration (8 hours with concentration).




The path of least resistance of course would be just asking your DM if you can swap out the spell now you know how they're going to rule it.
Sadly the character isn't mine, I'm filling in for a friend who's away for a month or two, so I'll have to convince him to swap it out. But yeah, that would defos be the option I'm looking at.

[Club Sandwich]

All the fairness aside, if the DM warned you "it would be very difficult to make it work", then he probably didn't feel comfortable working with the spell's original intent, and you were almost certainly better off looking for an alternative solution.

Yeah, I mean I definitely went into it knowing that it may fail. It's totally his right to interpret the spell how he wants, I'm just interested to see if it's a common interpretation.

[RipTide]

2) Suggestion is an out of combat spell, and doesn't really work in combat against people you're fighting.


If this were at all part of the spell it would say so. For example Charm Person reads "It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it."

Suggestion is admittedly very powerful, 8 hour duration, 2nd level spell only limited by your ability to craft a sentence. So I can understand wanting to limit it a bit. At the same time the fact he didn't even give it a chance, especially for such a reasonable suggestion, guts the spell unnecessarily.

[Unoriginal]

The drow could also have taken you hostage to force the group to stop attacking the dragonborn.

[NaughtyTiger]

Yeah, I mean I definitely went into it knowing that it may fail. It's totally his right to interpret the spell how he wants, I'm just interested to see if it's a common interpretation.

You are being unnecessarily gracious. he screwed up. and in the process screwed you.

[Club Sandwich]

You are being unnecessarily gracious. he screwed up. and in the process screwed you.
Hah, I try not to get hung up on things. The rest of the fight was epic AF, so I'll let one or two screw ups slide :smallwink:

[Club Sandwich]

The drow could also have taken you hostage to force the group to stop attacking the dragonborn.
You sound like a creative and sadistic DM.

I'm all for that.

[JellyPooga]

While I agree that Suggestion can be used in combat, I'm also of the opinion that what sounds reasonable while you're enganged in a melee is also very limited. In addition, the vagueness of "help the fighter" is enough to warrant pretty much anything the target did as a valid response, even if he did fail the save. Further, were the Suggestion to be more specific; e.g. "go stand next to the fighter" or "attack that guy, not me", verges into the "why would that be reasonable?" territory.

Suggestion is a powerful spell, but it's also only a lvl.2 one. It's far from a god-spell and certainly not the auto-pick that many seem to think it is. Its utility is mostly out of combat, which isn't to say that it can't be used in combat, but there are spells that have direct combat applicability, such as Crown of Madness or, as someone else suggested, Command. Suggestion should not be standing on those spells toes, no matter how you phrase the legalese of the wording.

As a rule of thumb, if another spell would have the same effect as your Suggestion, your Suggestion is probably inappropriate and you should use that other spell instead.

[Segev]

While I agree that this sounds like an unreasonable nerfing of the spell, there's no real use in coming to strangers on the internet to try to persuade your DM. You're best off just writing off suggestion as not useful in this DM's campaigns.

[Digimike]

While I agree that Suggestion can be used in combat, I'm also of the opinion that what sounds reasonable while you're enganged in a melee is also very limited. In addition, the vagueness of "help the fighter" is enough to warrant pretty much anything the target did as a valid response, even if he did fail the save. Further, were the Suggestion to be more specific; e.g. "go stand next to the fighter" or "attack that guy, not me", verges into the "why would that be reasonable?" territory.

Suggestion is a powerful spell, but it's also only a lvl.2 one. It's far from a god-spell and certainly not the auto-pick that many seem to think it is. Its utility is mostly out of combat, which isn't to say that it can't be used in combat, but there are spells that have direct combat applicability, such as Crown of Madness or, as someone else suggested, Command. Suggestion should not be standing on those spells toes, no matter how you phrase the legalese of the wording.

As a rule of thumb, if another spell would have the same effect as your Suggestion, your Suggestion is probably inappropriate and you should use that other spell instead.

I'll agree with the sentiments of some other posters. Your suggestion could have been worded better, but at the same time your DM nerfed the spell a bit hard. Suggestions is just fine for combat. Something like..."Head back to your room and rest for 8 hours" would have been perfectly reasonable and within the confines of the spell. Suggesting he aid an ally against other combatants should have been fine.

Now Drow do have advantage on saves vs charm spells, but he should have at least rolled for it.

[Club Sandwich]

While I agree that this sounds like an unreasonable nerfing of the spell, there's no real use in coming to strangers on the internet to try to persuade your DM. You're best off just writing off suggestion as not useful in this DM's campaigns.
At no point did I say this thread was an attempt to convince him. The point of this thread is to see if his interpretation is a one common in other games.

[Jophiel]

Its utility is mostly out of combat, which isn't to say that it can't be used in combat, but there are spells that have direct combat applicability, such as Crown of Madness or, as someone else suggested, Command. Suggestion should not be standing on those spells toes, no matter how you phrase the legalese of the wording.
Suggestion is basically a better version of Command, though. It can step on Command's toes because you're casting a higher level, better, spell that essentially does the same thing.

[Club Sandwich]

what sounds reasonable while you're enganged in a melee is also very limited. In addition, the vagueness of "help the fighter" is enough to warrant pretty much anything the target did as a valid response, even if he did fail the save.

I don't know about that. The way I understand it is that the spell plants a thought/urge in their head as though they had it. If it's unreasonable (like go jump off a cliff), they would ignore it. Because, well, of course they would (unless they were already suicidal). If it's something like the classic "These enemies are too strong. You should flee" then unless there's a good reason (they have a commander who executes deserters) then they may decide that a tactical retreat is indeed the best move.


Also, since the fight with the fighter was taking place in a different part of the dungeon from where the drow was, which he didn't need to go through me to access, attacking me would be a verrrry tenuous way of helping the fighter. But that's moot anyway. It didn't happen, because no saving throw was given.

[Club Sandwich]

Suggestion is basically a better version of Command, though. It can step on Command's toes because you're casting a higher level, better, spell that essentially does the same thing.
Agreed. In the same way that Major Image majorly steps on silent image's toes. It's meant to. It's basically that spell's upgrade.

[MaxWilson]

Suggestion is basically a better version of Command, though. It can step on Command's toes because you're casting a higher level, better, spell that essentially does the same thing.

Not to mention costing concentration, unlike Command.

[JellyPooga]

If it's something like the classic "These enemies are too strong. You should flee" then unless there's a good reason (they have a commander who executes deserters) then they may decide that a tactical retreat is indeed the best move.

There's a spell for that; it's called Cause Fear. Yes, Suggestion is a higher level, but that does not mean it should be able to duplicate the effects of another spell. I would tend to agree that Suggestion is somewhat of an upgrade from Command, much like Major Image and Silent Image, but there's also some discrepancies between the comparison; Major Image literally duplicates the effect of Silent Image and improves upon it. Command and Suggestion merely have similar effects and the latter has caveats the former does not (i.e. the "reasonable" clause). To argue that Suggestion must be capable of the same effefts as Command is like arguing that Scorching Ray should be able to affect an AoE like Burning Hands; their effects are similar (they both deal fire damage to multiple targets), but they have distinct differences; one is targetted and the other is an AoE.

[MaxWilson]

There's a spell for that; it's called Cause Fear. Yes, Suggestion is a higher level, but that does not mean it should be able to duplicate the effects of another spell. I would tend to agree that Suggestion is somewhat of an upgrade from Command, much like Major Image and Silent Image, but there's also some discrepancies between the comparison; Major Image literally duplicates the effect of Silent Image and improves upon it. Command and Suggestion merely have similar effects and the latter has caveats the former does not (i.e. the "reasonable" clause). To argue that Suggestion must be capable of the same effefts as Command is like arguing that Scorching Ray should be able to affect an AoE like Burning Hands; their effects are similar (they both deal fire damage to multiple targets), but they have distinct differences; one is targetted and the other is an AoE.

In practice, unreasonable commands are ignored by Command victims as well. "Suicide" is an intransitive verb (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suicide), a 100% valid one-word command, but if you tell someone to suicide, I'd be shocked if even one DM in ten ruled that the target was forced to spend a full round of attacks on themselves.

[Jophiel]

In practice, unreasonable commands are ignored by Command victims as well. "Suicide" is an intransitive verb (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suicide), a 100% valid one-word command, but if you tell someone to suicide, I'd be shocked if even one DM in ten ruled that the target was forced to spend a full round of attacks on themselves.
Likewise, Commanding someone near water to "Drown" almost certainly won't make them attempt to kill themselves, nor to "Jump" off a cliff (note that a flying creature won't plummet to harm from "Halt" per the PHB).

[PhantomSoul]

In practice, unreasonable commands are ignored by Command victims as well. "Suicide" is an intransitive verb (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suicide), a 100% valid one-word command, but if you tell someone to suicide, I'd be shocked if even one DM in ten ruled that the target was forced to spend a full round of attacks on themselves.

And, in fact, the DM would be right to refuse it; Command says, "The spell has no effect [...] if your command is directly harmful to it."

[Club Sandwich]

There's a spell for that; it's called Cause Fear.
Sorry mate, but command - a level 1 spell - already can duplicate its effects. In the spell text for command it says you can command an opponent to 'flee'. What it doesn't give them is the 'frightened' condition that cause fear does.

Raw and RAI (and I'm all for people houseruling what they want) suggestion can step on those spells' toes because that's what the spell text says. It may well be more balanced to houserule it so it can't, but I don't think that's necessarily the point you were making?

[ad_hoc]

It's not that Suggestion is an out of combat spell, it's that it is a bad combat spell.

Something like Hold Person is much better as the scope of what you can get an enemy to do in combat is pretty narrow.

[MaxWilson]

And, in fact, the DM would be right to refuse it; Command says, "The spell has no effect [...] if your command is directly harmful to it."

Whoops! You are correct. Serves me right for not reading more carefully before I post.

I bet most DMs wouldn't rule in favor of a "kill!" or "strangle!" command either though, especially if only allies were within killing distance.

[NaughtyTiger]

It's not that Suggestion is an out of combat spell, it's that it is a bad combat spell.

Something like Hold Person is much better as the scope of what you can get an enemy to do in combat is pretty narrow.

whoa. totes disagree.

if you have a big bad foe, i would much rather the big bad guy "go for a jog outside" for 8 hours than 2 rounds of "please don't make your save",
plus hold person isn't effective against an orge, but suggestion is.

[JellyPooga]

whoa. totes disagree.

if you have a big bad foe, i would much rather the big bad guy "go for a jog outside" for 8 hours than 2 rounds of "please don't make your save",
plus hold person isn't effective against an orge, but suggestion is.

Woah! Let's talk about how reasonable the BBEG thinks going for a jog is compared to, say, killing these pesky adventurers tromping all over his diabolical plans. That's almost the definition of something unreasonable; it's something he might do under other circumstances, sure, but that does not make it "reasonable"; there are mitigating circumstances (i.e. a bunch of hostiles on his turf, getting all up in his grill). That's why Suggestion is a bad combat spell; being in combat makes most otherwise reasonable suggestions completely out of the question.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Suggestion is one of those "only as good as the DM allows" spells. If your DM doesn't like Suggestion, then it's going to be a poor spell choice at your table. It's always best to talk to your DM and get his opinion on Suggestion (and similar spells) when choosing your spells.

[ad_hoc]

Woah! Let's talk about how reasonable the BBEG thinks going for a jog is compared to, say, killing these pesky adventurers tromping all over his diabolical plans. That's almost the definition of something unreasonable; it's something he might do under other circumstances, sure, but that does not make it "reasonable"; there are mitigating circumstances (i.e. a bunch of hostiles on his turf, getting all up in his grill). That's why Suggestion is a bad combat spell; being in combat makes most otherwise reasonable suggestions completely out of the question.

Yeah.

Some people want it to be a 2nd level Dominate Person that lasts 8 hours.

[intregus]

If I were you I'd ask the dm if he could differentiate what suggestion does vs command vs the friends cantrip and if he'd let you replace it with a different spell if it's not going to work how you thought it would.

[ImproperJustice]

Honestly. It sounds like you have a wargamer DM.

There’s nothing wrong with it, but based on your description he prefers a different play style. He just wants a good tactical fight and doesn’t need people ruining that with those “thinky” enchantment and illusion spells that just get in the way of a good fight.

My advice to your friend is to respec for blasting or very straightforward control spells. Play it like a wargame and you will be more successful.

[Keravath]

I'd say the DM was wrong in his interpretation of the spell and he should have explained in detail that he runs the spell in this particular way so that you could make a reasonable decision on your actions. Your CHARACTER should very well know the limits of the spell in the game world so it is up to the DM to explain those limits to the players so they can make informed decisions.

In addition,

1) If suggestion was not intended for use in combat it would not have a casting time of 1 action. Actions ONLY occur in combat ... you can cast most spells out of combat but the casting time isn't usually very relevant since you usually have the less than 6 seconds required.

2) The spell is open to interpretation in terms of effect by the DM.

"You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."

The suggestion spell does NOT caused the charmed condition so the elven fey ancestry giving advantage against charm effects does not apply. In addition, elves are not immune to being charmed only magical sleep.

So the spell should affect the drow and he should have to make a wisdom saving throw to avoid being affected. The DM doesn't really have a choice if they are playing by the same rules as everyone else.

Finally, the action needs to SOUND reasonable ... it does not actually need to BE reasonable. The example in the players handbook is that the knight should give their horse to the first beggar they meet. This could be done by suggesting "You should give your horse to the first beggar you meet since they need the transportation more than you and you can afford a new one". You make the suggestion SOUND reasonable even if the idea itself is not reasonable.

In the case of the OP, suggesting that the ally of the mercenary in the other room needs their help is actually extremely reasonable and believable and possibly even true. I'd say it should have succeeded.

---

However, from the description it sounds like the OP may have been intentionally trying to make a difficult fight even harder by sending additional enemies at the party. Depending on the ground rules of the campaign that could amount to a PVP type action .. it could be the OP, who was playing as a substitute, was intentionally trying to disrupt the party or the encounter by making it more difficult, causing one or more characters to possibly die, or some other mischief ... if this kind of action isn't allowed in this campaign due to character alignments or ground rules, then perhaps they got what they deserved.

[Club Sandwich]

However, from the description it sounds like the OP may have been intentionally trying to make a difficult fight even harder by sending additional enemies at the party. Depending on the ground rules of the campaign that could amount to a PVP type action .. it could be the OP, who was playing as a substitute, was intentionally trying to disrupt the party or the encounter by making it more difficult, causing one or more characters to possibly die, or some other mischief ... if this kind of action isn't allowed in this campaign due to character alignments or ground rules, then perhaps they got what they deserved.
Nah they were a few rooms away, so the idea was they'd have killed the fighter by the time he got there. My plan was to feed them the bad guys one by one!

[Zalabim]

One thing that I see a lot of people do (or rather not do) with their suggestions that bothers me personally, is they do not suggest a course of action. They just propose a situation, and expect magic to happen. They may say, "I suggest the castle gates are open and enemies are coming," well ok. But what do you want the guard to DO?

It's the difference between "The Wizard of Oz can solve any problem," and "Go see the Wizard of Oz, because he can solve any problem."

[ProsecutorGodot]

Ignoring that the DM should have had a saving throw rolled regardless of how effective the suggestion may have been or how he explained his reasoning, let's unpack the core question you asked:
Does telling an enemy to go and help his ally instead of attacking the caster sound reasonable to you? What would you rule in your campaign?

Do I think the DM handled the situation wrong, no. Do I think that it was handled poorly, yes. Do I think that his reasoning holds up to scrutiny, not entirely.

What I do think, is that given the circumstances, the drow did what was reasonable to reach his friend and offer him aid. Feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood the scenario, but it really seems like you guys were somewhere you weren't supposed to be and "help the dragonborn, he's being attacked" could very reasonable be interpreted as "his job is to kill intruders, I'll kill this one so we aren't flanked and then help him with the rest"

It's obviously not what you expected when you cast the spell, and that really does suck, but I don't think it was unreasonable of the drow to attack your character in response. I feel the need to repeat though that the situation was not handled well even if I agree with the result. I don't believe that this DM gave much consideration to the plausibility of it working, instead just determining that it wasn't reasonable from the start.

[TristanLeo]

Suggestion is not a non-combat spell. I have literally had a combat end in the very first players turn because they used this in a suprise round to tell a group of 5 wereboars that someone was ransacking their ship and they ALL immediately belted for the coast to secure their ship. Just because you are in combat turns does not mean combat is initiated.
In your case, I wouldn't have had the man run to his friends aid because as stated, he is doing his job, but I would have had him come out and look under the effect of suggestion, buying at least a turn. This feels like it was just the DM preempting that you would attack him next turn and using it as justification for him to ignore suggestion and strike first.

[JellyPooga]

Suggestion is not a non-combat spell. I have literally had a combat end in the very first players turn because they used this in a suprise round to tell a group of 5 wereboars that someone was ransacking their ship and they ALL immediately belted for the coast to secure their ship. Just because you are in combat turns does not mean combat is initiated.

This is a misinterpretation of what Suggestion can do. You suggest a course of action, not a "state of affairs". You can't suggest that someone's ransacking a ship and have them buy it; you could suggest that they go check to see if someone's ransacking their ship, but again, they're unlikely to abandon more immediate concerns (i.e. the hostiles in front of them casting the spell) in favour of checking their ship because that's not a reasonable course of action. If they weren't aggressive already (i.e. combat is being initiated), then yes, it's reasonable, but otherwise, no.

[Unoriginal]

You could suggest "I am not dangerous anymore,go defeat your other enemies"

[Keravath]

This is a misinterpretation of what Suggestion can do. You suggest a course of action, not a "state of affairs". You can't suggest that someone's ransacking a ship and have them buy it; you could suggest that they go check to see if someone's ransacking their ship, but again, they're unlikely to abandon more immediate concerns (i.e. the hostiles in front of them casting the spell) in favour of checking their ship because that's not a reasonable course of action. If they weren't aggressive already (i.e. combat is being initiated), then yes, it's reasonable, but otherwise, no.


TL;DR ... All a suggestion requires is that it SOUND reasonable not that it BE reasonable. Creature that fails their save does NOT have a choice regarding their course of action.

-----

These are the points that DMs will disagree on. Suggestion proposes a course of action that SOUNDS reasonable.

"You need to return to your ship right away since other adventurers are ransacking it right now"

Course of action suggested. Reasonable reason given. You don't need to convince them of anything, the spell prevents logical decision making if they fail the save. The suggested course of action becomes what they need to be doing as long as concentration is maintained.

"You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously
harmful act ends the spell. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do. You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn't met before the spell expires, the activity isn't performed. If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends."

In the example, it doesn't make any sense for the knight to give away their horse to the first beggar she meets. Maybe she needs her horse? Maybe she is in a fight or traveling to another town? Lots of reasons for the knight NOT to want to give away the horse. However, the spell prevents that.

Your assumptions are in the phrase "they're unlikely to abandon more immediate concerns" ... the spell doesn't say anything about weighing their current activities, their relationship to the caster, or anything else ... other than if the creature fails its wisdom saving throw they must "On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability." They DON'T decide what to do ... they DO what you suggest IF they fail the save.

The grey area is in the description: "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."

THIS is where the spell is open to a large range of DM interpretation since the meaning of "sound reasonable" isn't well defined. I usually run this as giving a suggestion that SOUNDS like it has a reasonable basis. "Your ally needs help, go help him" is in my opinion a totally valid, reasonable sounding suggestion. If the creature fails the save they follow the suggestion of the caster ... their current circumstances do NOT matter .. no where is the creature failing the saving throw given a choice about their actions.

Also, the sentence that excludes directly harming themselves implies that suggestions can indirectly lead to harm to the creature that fails the save. The creature doesn't have a choice if the suggestion sounds reasonable.

What an individual DM thinks might sound reasonable for different NPCs is where the arguments come up. This is entirely at the discretion of the DM. Some DMs might rule that anything that an NPC doesn't want to do doesn't sound reasonable. My opinion is that this is intentionally breaking the intent of the spell since using the printed example ... a knight would never think it "sounds reasonable" to give away their warhorse to the first beggar they see. By deciding on a very limited interpretation of "sound reasonable" the spell is made useless and contradicts the example given in the spell description ... but that is up to the DM in their homebrew campaign .. if they let the players know they can decide not to take the spell in that game.

However, all the spell requires is that the suggestion SOUND reasonable and NOT that it BE reasonable. Suggest a course of action, give a possible reason, fail the save and the creature follows the action as long as it sounded reasonable.

For example, in combat, suggest to an opponent "You are going to need more help, this is a dangerous threat, run to the barracks and get reinforcements". It doesn't matter whether they actually need more help, or whether the threat is that dangerous or not ... the suggestion, in context SOUNDS reasonable. So if the guard fails its save it will run off towards the barracks looking for help.

Or maybe ... "This is really dangerous and risky, you might die, you'd better escape while you can, run to the forest".
Or as in the OP post ... "Your ally needs your help, run to aid him"

All these suggestions "sound reasonable" (at least to me :) ) ... and would likely "sound reasonable" to the NPCs involved if they fail their saves.

[ClearlyTough69]

Next time, cast suggestion on the DM before getting your PC to cast it on a foe.

[JellyPooga]

TL;DR ... All a suggestion requires is that it SOUND reasonable not that it BE reasonable. Creature that fails their save does NOT have a choice regarding their course of action.

-----

These are the points that DMs will disagree on. Suggestion proposes a course of action that SOUNDS reasonable.

"You need to return to your ship right away since other adventurers are ransacking it right now"

The Suggestion here is only "return to your ship", the "adventurers are attacking" is a state of affairs and inapplicable. Suggestion does not allow you to make someone believe somethig that isn't true. It only makes them do something. "Return to your ship" is an unreasonable course of action when engaged with a foe.


For example, in combat, suggest to an opponent "You are going to need more help, this is a dangerous threat, run to the barracks and get reinforcements".

This, on the other hand, is a reasonable course of action. The state of affairs "you need help here" is inadmissable, but getting help is usually going to be something most foes will find reasonable.

[JackPhoenix]

One thing that I see a lot of people do (or rather not do) with their suggestions that bothers me personally, is they do not suggest a course of action. They just propose a situation, and expect magic to happen. They may say, "I suggest the castle gates are open and enemies are coming," well ok. But what do you want the guard to DO?

Well, obviously he wants the guard to do what his job requires him to do in such situation... that is, raise the alarm and go close the gate.

[Keravath]

The Suggestion here is only "return to your ship", the "adventurers are attacking" is a state of affairs and inapplicable. Suggestion does not allow you to make someone believe somethig that isn't true. It only makes them do something. "Return to your ship" is an unreasonable course of action when engaged with a foe.



This, on the other hand, is a reasonable course of action. The state of affairs "you need help here" is inadmissable, but getting help is usually going to be something most foes will find reasonable.

You see .. I think this is where you and I disagree. I interpret making the suggestion "sound reasonable" to include some reasonable sounding reason for why the creature should take the suggested action. This can include stating information (which may be false) that the target creature is unaware of.

"Give away your horse to a beggar" is an unreasonable suggestion at any time isn't it by your definition? Why would the target creature EVER want to or find such an action "reasonable"?

If you are under attack, why would the suggestion "Go defend your ship" be considered any more unreasonable than "Give away your horse"? Defending their ship might in fact be a much higher priority than dealing with the foes with whom they are currently engaged.

Anyway, I interpret the "sound reasonable" clause to include supplying reasons why the suggested course of action would be considered reasonable in the circumstances ... maybe only as a hint to the DM if I was playing at your table :) ... especially since the suggested action doesn't have to BE reasonable ... it just has to SOUND reasonable which is a much lower level to achieve.

[Guy Lombard-O]

One thing that I see a lot of people do (or rather not do) with their suggestions that bothers me personally, is they do not suggest a course of action. They just propose a situation, and expect magic to happen. They may say, "I suggest the castle gates are open and enemies are coming," well ok. But what do you want the guard to DO?

It's the difference between "The Wizard of Oz can solve any problem," and "Go see the Wizard of Oz, because he can solve any problem."

I'd agree with that (and much of the discussion which followed). I guess I should have been more accurate in recollecting the suggestion. I actually suggested that the soldier needed to go guard that wide-open gate to prevent our allies from coming in (this was a couple years ago, so sorry about the sloppy off-hand recollection).

I don't see anything unreasonable in having one of a group of enemies flee the combat outright, especially if it's couched in such a way as to seem excusable. Tactical retreats are a thing, and rushing to prevent reinforcements from easily joining a battle and overwhelming your side might well be the right tactical move.

Suggestion is a battlefield control spell, in addition to being a great out of combat tool (although I prefer using Cha skills instead of spell slots in almost every such non-combat situation). The OP's suggestion was worthy, appropriate and reasonably stated (other than being open to interpretation). It should have had at least a save/chance of working.

I'd also agree with Keravath that knights giving away the very tool of their trade (warhorse) is utterly unreasonable in fact. But the spell is powerful enough to make it happen anyway, if it's stated in a "reasonable" way.

[Monster Manuel]

Suggestion does not allow you to make someone believe somethig that isn't true. It only makes them do something.

I think this is the core of the disagreement about how to adjudicate the Suggestion spell. It absolutely can and does make someone believe something that isn't true.

Essentially, Suggestion is the Jedi Mind Trick. "These are not the droids you are looking for" is the easiest and most well-known cultural touchstone for what this spell is trying to do. It's a reasonable suggestion. There are hundreds of droids all over Mos Eisley, and they all pretty much look alike. It's a lie, it's patently false because those actually WERE the droids they were looking for, but they might not have been, and that's enough for the Suggestion to take hold.

If Obi Wan had tried to use Suggestion/Mind Trick to say "The Empire is evil, you should join the rebellion!" it would have failed. Far too much in opposition of their core beliefs. Try as you might, you cannot get John Clease to buy that dead parrot.


The knight in the spell description absolutely should not hand over his warhorse to the first beggar he sees. The knight needs the warhorse, and the beggar can't care for it. But the suggestion makes it seem to the knight like it is a reasonable suggestion, and so it works.

If all Suggestion does is encourage the target to consider a reasonable course of action that they were already inclined to do, what is the difference between this and a Diplomacy check?

[JellyPooga]

You see .. I think this is where you and I disagree. I interpret making the suggestion "sound reasonable" to include some reasonable sounding reason for why the creature should take the suggested action. This can include stating information (which may be false) that the target creature is unaware of.

The spell does not make people believe lies or, indeed, any information they are not already aware of. Nothing in the spell description indicates that it does. The "sounds reasonable" clause is in there because circumstance can make an otherwise reasonable suggestion unreasonable. The Suggestion "Take a step to the left" is reasonable when doing the Time Warp, but is not reasonable when one step to the left is a 100ft drop. "Go make a brew" is reasonable when a guard is on his break, but is not reasonable when he's on duty. "Defend your ship now!" is reasonable if the ship is under attack, or the target believes it is, but making the target believe the ship is under attack is in no way part of the spells effect; a Deception check or another spell, perhaps, but not Suggestion.


"Give away your horse to a beggar" is an unreasonable suggestion at any time isn't it by your definition? Why would the target creature EVER want to or find such an action "reasonable"?

A knight, almost by definition, is usually a moneyed individual, possibly owning several horses. Suggesting that a charitably inclined knight with wealth should give charity to someone who has nothing may indeed be reasonable; the sale price of a warhorse could clothe, house and feed that beggar for a year, let alone any investment possibilities; that's a life changing donation. To an evil knight with no charitable inclination, or a down on his luck knight with only the one horse and the clothes on his back, no, that Suggestion is not reasonable..


Anyway, I interpret the "sound reasonable" clause to include supplying reasons why the suggested course of action would be considered reasonable in the circumstances

I disagree with your interpretation. The circumstances of the target; historical, environmental, physical or mental, determine what might or might not be reasonable, not the spell. You can use other means to change the parameters of the situation (as mentioned above; a Deception check, another spell, false documents, etc.) such that the target believe a Suggestion is reasonable, but the spell itself does not implant or change memories, alter beliefs or otherwise change any other aspect of the targets circumstance. Suggestion literally only suggests a course of action and forces the target (on a failed save) to take that action IF it's reasonable. It does not change what "reasonable" is.


I think this is the core of the disagreement about how to adjudicate the Suggestion spell. It absolutely can and does make someone believe something that isn't true.

Essentially, Suggestion is the Jedi Mind Trick. "These are not the droids you are looking for" is the easiest and most well-known cultural touchstone for what this spell is trying to do. It's a reasonable suggestion. There are hundreds of droids all over Mos Eisley, and they all pretty much look alike. It's a lie, it's patently false because those actually WERE the droids they were looking for, but they might not have been, and that's enough for the Suggestion to take hold.

This is a bad comparison. The Jedi Mind Trick puts thoughts and words into peoples minds and mouths; it makes them believe something. Suggestion does neither of these things. Suggestion forces the subject to follow a course of action. Nothing more. The Jedi Mind Trick is more akin to Modify Memory; a much higher level spell than Suggestion.


If all Suggestion does is encourage the target to consider a reasonable course of action that they were already inclined to do, what is the difference between this and a Diplomacy check?

Suggestion doesn't encourage, it doesn't give a choice; it forces the target to do something. The difference between Suggestion and the Persuasion skill is that one is magic and the other is not, for a start. In addition, Suggestion takes a single action, while Persuasion may take minutes. Persuasion also has the advantage that it might convince someone to do something unreasonable; Suggestion never will. Suggestion has the advantage that it might make someone do something they weren't actually inclined to do; it's rather the point of the spell, after all, because if they were already inclined to do it, they'd have done it or be doing it already. Suggestion lets you make someone do something they consider within the realms of possibility of things they might do, but not necessarily will do, either right now or in the future.

This is not to say Suggestion is not a powerful spell, nor that it is impossible to use in combat. However, without some other form of manipulation, what Suggestion is capable of in a combat scenario is limited. Consider the example I gave above of the Suggestion "Take a step to the left". In most combats, this is pretty reasonable; it's innocuous enough that under the compulsion of the spell, the target will indeed step left; one step won't be provoking an Opportunity Attack or otherwise compromise the target, so they step left; the suggested course of action won't harm the target at all, so it's reasonable. Let's place the melee on the edge of a precipice, though. "Step Left" suddenly becomes unreasonable, because it's tantamount to suicide. What if, however, we cast Phantasmal Force or some other illusion first, making the target believe he has room to step left and then cast Suggestion? Now we're starting to give flying lessons without a parachute.

[Phoenix042]

Your DM houseruled a nerf to the suggestion spell.

He's welcome to do that, but I strongly disagree with the decision as a DM myself. I don't like the attitude some DM's have that if THEY don't like a feature or ability, the player's should have it as an option.

A good DM knows how to make his player's choices feel valid.

Suggestion works fine in combat. The suggestion doesn't have to be a reasonable one, it just has to sound reasonable as you say it.

You can't tell someone to dive into a pool of acid, but you could tell them that that "nice, warm hot spring is really refreshing and you should take a dip" when it's actually a pool of acid.

Suggestion is really strong, but it also isn't "just another blasty spell" and that sort of play should be encouraged.

I've never had a DM rule it like this before, and I never would as DM.

[JellyPooga]

You can't tell someone to dive into a pool of acid, but you could tell them that that "nice, warm hot spring is really refreshing and you should take a dip" when it's actually a pool of acid.

Only if they believed it was a nice hot spring and not a pool of acid in the first place. I'll say it again; Suggestion does not change the targets perception, beliefs, memories or gods given common sense. If the pool of acid is clearly a pool of acid, Suggestion will not persuade them that it isn't.

[Xetheral]

I'm agree with the posters who say that the suggestion only has to sound reasonable out-of-context. It doesn't have to be reasonable in-context.

In 3rd edition Suggestion was a 3rd level spell, but explicitly allowed for convincing someone that a pool of acid was instead fresh water and to go take a refreshing swim. I would still allow such a usage in 5e.

[Ganymede]

Only if they believed it was a nice hot spring and not a pool of acid in the first place. I'll say it again; Suggestion does not change the targets perception, beliefs, memories or gods given common sense. If the pool of acid is clearly a pool of acid, Suggestion will not persuade them that it isn't.

I think he used that example because it was printed in the description of the Suggestion spell in a prior edition of D&D.

I'll agree with you: Suggesting someone dive into acid is both unreasonable and obviously harmful. It is like Suggesting someone swallow a dagger because it is really a dagger-shaped Little Debbie Snack Cake.


For me, the "reasonableness" requirement is something that turns a seed of doubt or pang of conscience into a full blown compulsion; it isn't something that will force someone to ignore every instinct they have.

[JellyPooga]

I'm agree with the posters who say that the suggestion only has to sound reasonable out-of-context. It doesn't have to be reasonable in-context.

In 3rd edition Suggestion was a 3rd level spell, but explicitly allowed for convincing someone that a pool of acid was instead fresh water and to go take a refreshing swim. I would still allow such a usage in 5e.

Newsflash: 5ed isn't 3ed.

Breaking now: 2nd level spells aren't as powerful as 3rd level spells.

This just in: Phantasmal Force is the premier single target 2nd level spell for changing a creatures perception. Experts say that Suggestion is not Phantasmal Force, we repeat, Suggestion is not Phantasmal Force.

...

...

...Sorry. I got a bit carried away with the whole "newscaster angle" thing there :smallbiggrin:

[Xetheral]

Newsflash: 5ed isn't 3ed.

Breaking now: 2nd level spells aren't as powerful as 3rd level spells.

This just in: Phantasmal Force is the premier single target 2nd level spell for changing a creatures perception. Experts say that Suggestion is not Phantasmal Force, we repeat, Suggestion is not Phantasmal Force.

...

...

...Sorry. I got a bit carried away with the whole "newscaster angle" thing there :smallbiggrin:

:) Of course, one could just as easily argue that the change to a second level spell was intended to reflect the relative power of Suggestion in comparison to other 5e spells, rather than evidence that they deliberately downgraded the spell's capability in the new edition.

[Keravath]

Newsflash: 5ed isn't 3ed.

Breaking now: 2nd level spells aren't as powerful as 3rd level spells.

This just in: Phantasmal Force is the premier single target 2nd level spell for changing a creatures perception. Experts say that Suggestion is not Phantasmal Force, we repeat, Suggestion is not Phantasmal Force.

...

...

...Sorry. I got a bit carried away with the whole "newscaster angle" thing there :smallbiggrin:

Lol. This just in ... lots of folks will just have to agree to disagree with you. :)

The definition of "sound reasonable" is entirely up to the DM and as a DM I would interpret it differently than you do. That is all. No amount of yelling, repeating or arguing sounds like it will convince you that your interpretation is too narrow or that perhaps mine is too broad.

---

When I read the example in the spell text of telling a knight to give away their warhorse, it does NOT have ANY additional provisions on the nature of the knight or their attitude to the world. You cited that in your game the suggestion might work on certain knights but not on other ones. The example in the rules has NONE of these constraints. It would presumably apply to ANY knight.

Just based on this example, I would disagree with your interpretation since you have ADDED a lot of qualifications as to whether the spell should be effective based on how you imagine the spell working and not based on what is written in the rules. The example in the text should work with ANY knight having them give away their warhorse since the example does not include any qualifications or limitations. If that is the case then it is very clear that the suggestion does NOT need to be reasonable for the target .. it just needs to "sound" reasonable .. and the effect of the spell is to convince the target that the required course of action IS reasonable (if they fail their save).

... and that is the last from me on this discussion :)

[Monster Manuel]

Only if they believed it was a nice hot spring and not a pool of acid in the first place. I'll say it again; Suggestion does not change the targets perception, beliefs, memories or gods given common sense. If the pool of acid is clearly a pool of acid, Suggestion will not persuade them that it isn't.


On this one, I agree with you, actually. Sure, they will be compelled to jump into the pool, but with one glance they will realize it's not a hot spring, and the suggestion is no longer reasonable. In its' 5E incarnation, this is no longer a viable use.

What about this one: assume there is some reason why you and/or your opponent need to get through the acid pool. "You should drink this potion of Acid Immunity, before I can". Target snatches the vial from my hand, downs a mouthful of refreshing but completely non-magical spring water, and, thinking themselves immune to acid confidently leaps to their grisly death. Reasonable? They don't have any reason to believe that my vial of water is an Acid Immunity potion, but they have no evidence that it's NOT, either. Would you allow that one?

[JellyPooga]

:) Of course, one could just as easily argue that the change to a second level spell was intended to reflect the relative power of Suggestion in comparison to other 5e spells, rather than evidence that they deliberately downgraded the spell's capability in the new edition.

I won't dismiss the possibility, but the omission of 3ed's examples of acid pools and dragons, despite a remarkable similarity in the text otherwise, is more likely a...suggestion (nudge nudge, wink)...that along with the lower spell level, they intended it to actually be less powerful. I'll certainly not claim it to be the absolute truth (after all, the Glibness debacle happened; 8th level? Seriously?), but it's my interpretation that Suggestion isn't supposed to be as powerful as it used to be and in defence of that interpretation I'll point out that most things are "less powerful" than they were in 3ed, regardless of changes to when/how they're obtained; 5ed is simply a little more grounded than 3ed ever was.

[Xetheral]

I won't dismiss the possibility, but the omission of 3ed's examples of acid pools and dragons, despite a remarkable similarity in the text otherwise, is more likely a...suggestion (nudge nudge, wink)...that along with the lower spell level, they intended it to actually be less powerful. I'll certainly not claim it to be the absolute truth (after all, the Glibness debacle happened; 8th level? Seriously?), but it's my interpretation that Suggestion isn't supposed to be as powerful as it used to be and in defence of that interpretation I'll point out that most things are "less powerful" than they were in 3ed, regardless of changes to when/how they're obtained; 5ed is simply a little more grounded than 3ed ever was.

That entirely reasonable. :) I personally think it would have been better practice to change the spell description even more if they'd intended to signify a change. As it is, the changes look to me like cuts for length rather than intended to convey a change in meaning. Regardless, since my campaign world is from 3.0 days and I value consistency, (edit: in the absence of a clear reason to change) I'm going to keep interpreting the spell the same way.

[Guy Lombard-O]

The spell does not make people believe lies or, indeed, any information they are not already aware of. Nothing in the spell description indicates that it does.

I re-read the spell description, and nothing in the text states this either way. You are stating this interpretation like it's a fact, and you sound very sure of it. But I cannot establish that from reading the text at all. Do you have a Sage Advice stating this or something?


A knight, almost by definition, is usually a moneyed individual, possibly owning several horses. Suggesting that a charitably inclined knight with wealth should give charity to someone who has nothing may indeed be reasonable; the sale price of a warhorse could clothe, house and feed that beggar for a year, let alone any investment possibilities; that's a life changing donation. To an evil knight with no charitable inclination, or a down on his luck knight with only the one horse and the clothes on his back, no, that Suggestion is not reasonable..

OK, that also isn't in the spell's text. There's nothing that supports your reading that this example was meant to apply to a lawful nice paladin-type only. It just says "you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets." Says nothing about rich or good or kind or charitable. While it doesn't specifically say that this suggestion will work, there's a very strong implication that they included it as an example because it does work. If you have to insert all sorts of homebrewed, self-generated errata into the spell's text in order to make your point...well, I don't find that very convincing.


You can use other means to change the parameters of the situation (as mentioned above; a Deception check, another spell, false documents, etc.) such that the target believe a Suggestion is reasonable, but the spell itself does not implant or change memories, alter beliefs or otherwise change any other aspect of the targets circumstance. Suggestion literally only suggests a course of action and forces the target (on a failed save) to take that action IF it's reasonable. It does not change what "reasonable" is.

I think I see your point here, that maybe a deception check could help determine how reasonable the suggestion sounds. And that seems fair enough in borderline cases. But to say that a magical suggestion costing a 2nd level slot (that uses your concentration and gives a saving throw) cannot even do what a deception/persuasion check might easily accomplish comes pretty close to nerfing the spell out of existence, doesn't it?


This is a bad comparison. The Jedi Mind Trick puts thoughts and words into peoples minds and mouths; it makes them believe something. Suggestion does neither of these things. Suggestion forces the subject to follow a course of action. Nothing more. The Jedi Mind Trick is more akin to Modify Memory; a much higher level spell than Suggestion.

Modify Memory seems quite different than JMT. It's for acting on memories of the past. The reading of the spell description suggests that JMT is exactly what Suggestion is for.

[JellyPooga]

When I read the example in the spell text of telling a knight to give away their warhorse, it does NOT have ANY additional provisions on the nature of the knight or their attitude to the world. You cited that in your game the suggestion might work on certain knights but not on other ones. The example in the rules has NONE of these constraints. It would presumably apply to ANY knight.

Just based on this example, I would disagree with your interpretation since you have ADDED a lot of qualifications as to whether the spell should be effective based on how you imagine the spell working and not based on what is written in the rules. The example in the text should work with ANY knight having them give away their warhorse since the example does not include any qualifications or limitations. If that is the case then it is very clear that the suggestion does NOT need to be reasonable for the target .. it just needs to "sound" reasonable .. and the effect of the spell is to convince the target that the required course of action IS reasonable (if they fail their save).

... and that is the last from me on this discussion :)

The example clearly can't apply to any Knight; a Knight without a Warhorse is one such Knight. The example doesn't say "any knight", it is a specific example of "a knight". We can add any qualifying circumstances we like, because the example is vague (presumably for brevity and to save ink) and we should. No circumstance is in a white room; we have no details about the example knight beyond the fact that they (no gender given) have a warhorse and have been knighted (because a knight without a knighthood is not a knight...obviously). The only other supposition we can take from the example is that they presumably find the action of giving a horse to a beggar to at least sound reasonable. There is no counter example to contradict what that knight might find unreasonable, so we can only summise what circumstances might.


On this one, I agree with you, actually. Sure, they will be compelled to jump into the pool, but with one glance they will realize it's not a hot spring, and the suggestion is no longer reasonable. In its' 5E incarnation, this is no longer a viable use.

What about this one: assume there is some reason why you and/or your opponent need to get through the acid pool. "You should drink this potion of Acid Immunity, before I can". Target snatches the vial from my hand, downs a mouthful of refreshing but completely non-magical spring water, and, thinking themselves immune to acid confidently leaps to their grisly death. Reasonable? They don't have any reason to believe that my vial of water is an Acid Immunity potion, but they have no evidence that it's NOT, either. Would you allow that one?

If I were GM, I'd call for a Deception check for the target to believe your lie about the phial of water. Succeed and I'd likely grant "reasonable" status to your Suggestion. Fail and the Suggestion auto-fails on unreasonable grounds. What the victim of this ploy does after chugging the supposed Acid Immunity Potion would also be in question; just because you believe yourself immune to acid, doesn't mean you'll immediately jump into the pool; maybe they'll disrobe first, maybe they'll try and sabotage your own attempts first, or some other course of action that isn't to immediately jump in to their doom. Then there's also the question of how they go about fulfilling your Suggestion; after all, you haven't specified that the target snatch the vial from your freely outstretched hand; perhaps they'll try and run you through with their spear to get the phial off you, or initiate a grapple, maybe they'll offer a wager to win it off of you, or perhaps offer to buy it.

I'll reiterate; Suggestion does not change perceptions or belief. It's not an Illusion. It's a Enchantment; more specifically a compulsion effect. Nothing you say as part of the Suggestion that is anything but a course of action is admissible as being enforced as part of the spell. "Drink this" is a valid Suggestion IF the target believes "this" to be non-harmful to it. "Drink this Acid Immunity Potion" does not make the target believe the potion is an Acid Immunity Potion any more than just saying it is will (i.e. a Deception check).

[Guy Lombard-O]

The example clearly can't apply to any Knight; a Knight without a Warhorse is one such Knight.

That's sort of silly. But the spell actually addresses that, since the example is presented in the section about conditional clauses. "If the condition isn’t met before the spell expires, the activity isn’t performed." So, yeah. Obviously.


I'll reiterate; Suggestion does not change perceptions or belief. It's not an Illusion. It's a Enchantment; more specifically a compulsion effect. Nothing you say as part of the Suggestion that is anything but a course of action is admissible as being enforced as part of the spell.

I think you're just wrong about this. Say you suggest to the target, "Hey, this guard post seems sort of pointless and unnecessary, but you're doing a great job of it. You really deserve a reward for such excellence. Why don't you go over to the bar and get yourself a stiff one while I watch things here for you?"

Now, we can argue about how reasonable that is/sounds (not/possibly okay). But if the suggestion succeeds, haven't you induced this guard to believe he's entitled to a short drink break? Or do you see it as he has to go do it, hating every second of it and wishing he could stop himself? I think the spell is designed to make that guard adopt the belief that he's earned that drink, and he wants it.

[JellyPooga]

I think you're just wrong about this. Say you suggest to the target, "Hey, this guard post seems sort of pointless and unnecessary, but you're doing a great job of it. You really deserve a reward for such excellence. Why don't you go over to the bar and get yourself a stiff one while I watch things here for you?"

Now, we can argue about how reasonable that is/sounds (not/possibly okay). But if the suggestion succeeds, haven't you induced this guard to believe he's entitled to a short drink break? Or do you see it as he has to go do it, hating every second of it and wishing he could stop himself? I think the spell is designed to make that guard adopt the belief that he's earned that drink, and he wants it.

Leaving aside whether or not the Suggestion is valid for the moment. No, I don't think you have made the guard believe he's earned a drink. You've compelled him to go and get one, but the reason he has done so is not because you've changed his beliefs about whether he's done a good job or not, but because the magic has forced him to. That's not to say he's crying his way to the bar trying to resist the effect; he "willingly" goes, in his own mind, but he might not know why. After the fact, he'll probably wonder about it, maybe for days, trying to puzzle out what it was that made him leave his post for a brew, maybe he'll even fantasize a reason to explain it to himself, maybe he'll lie to his superior when questioned about it and come to believe the lie he told...nothing about the way you've worded the spell will influence his belief beyond the words themselves; you could equally have worded that Suggestion "Go to the bar and get a drink" with the exact same effect, because everything else in that particular wording is not a statement of a course of action. To break it down;

- "Hey, this guard post seems sort of pointless and unnecessary, but you're doing a great job of it" : Suggestion does not make the target share your opinions.
- "You really deserve a reward for such excellence" : Nor does it change the targets opinions.
- "Why don't you go over to the bar and get yourself a stiff one" : This is valid Suggestion; it's a course of action.
- "while I watch things here for you?" : This might be a nice turn of phrase, but Suggestion will not make the guard believe you will, any more than he would had you not cast the spell.

Which brings me to why this Suggestion would auto-fail at my table. A Guard on duty, or at least a loyal and/or diligent one, will not likely find "abandon your post" (or however you want to phrase it) to be a reasonable course of action. He's on duty. This is his job. Your suggesting he fail at his duty, probably incurring some kind of sanction or punishment from his superiors (a warning, loss of job, a fine, possibly some kind of physical reprimand like lashes, or even death). That's not likely to be reasonable to him. A Suggestion that a guard "go get a superior" or "go for reinforcements" or something similar that falls in line with his duties is much more likely to sound reasonable.

Suggestion only forces the subject to follow a suggested course of action. Compare it to Phantasmal Force;
You craft an illusion that takes root in the mind of a creature...[snip]...While a target is affected by this spell the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm.Nothing in the text of Suggestion comes close to this kind of rationalisation, alteration of perception or belief.
On a failed save, [the creature] pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability.No mention of believing lies, being your friend, seeing things that are not there or rationalising the outcome; the target is not and cannot be charmed, frightened, or subjected directly to any other condition; the target just does the thing you tell it to.

That said and as I've pointed out before, while the spell itself doesn't magically change the beliefs or perceptions of the target, your words or other factors can. Suggestion on its own is a limited tool; it forces one aspect of a situation - the suggested course of action. That isn't to say you can't otherwise deceive, lie, falsify, cajole, persuade, craft illusions, cast other spells, use other equipment, bribe, brow-beat or beat-down the target before casting Suggestion to make them find the course of action completely and utterly reasonable. "This is a cruddy guard post, but you're amazing; go get a drink" goes a lot further with a good disguise, a silver tongue and some silver in his palm to buy said drink.

[Lord Torath]

Yeah, I mean I definitely went into it knowing that it may fail. It's totally his right to interpret the spell how he wants, I'm just interested to see if it's a common interpretation.
While I agree that this sounds like an unreasonable nerfing of the spell, there's no real use in coming to strangers on the internet to try to persuade your DM. You're best off just writing off suggestion as not useful in this DM's campaigns.
Suggestion is one of those "only as good as the DM allows" spells. If your DM doesn't like Suggestion, then it's going to be a poor spell choice at your table. It's always best to talk to your DM and get his opinion on Suggestion (and similar spells) when choosing your spells.I suggest you ask the DM for an example of what he feels is an appropriate use of the Suggestion spell. I personally feel Jelly Pooga is being unnecessarily restrictive in his interpretation of the spell, and that's why it's important to ask your DM for concrete situations in which he/she will allow it to work. From there you can judge whether the spell is worth the cost of a 2nd-level spell slot.

[JellyPooga]

I suggest you ask the DM for an example of what he feels is an appropriate use of the Suggestion spell. I personally feel Jelly Pooga is being unnecessarily restrictive in his interpretation of the spell, and that's why it's important to ask your DM for concrete situations in which he/she will allow it to work. From there you can judge whether the spell is worth the cost of a 2nd-level spell slot.

I've been fighting the long fight on this one and yeah, I've had some support, but I really want to know where the opposition gets its interpretation from. Is there something I've missed about what the spell actually says it does? Is there some bit in the text that says something about it full-on "Obi-wan"ing the target to believe what you want it to? I mean, "the suggestion must be worded in such a way as to sound reasonable" doesn't say "pretty much anything will fly if it's even vaguely in the right ballpark" to me, it says "it's got to be reasonable, you know, don't be dull here". Further, the actual effect of failing the save literally says "it follows the course of action"; nothing, i repeat nothing; zero, zip, nadda, about the target believing lies, ignoring their own perception or anything of the nature.

What am I missing here?

[Xetheral]

I've been fighting the long fight on this one and yeah, I've had some support, but I really want to know where the opposition gets its interpretation from. Is there something I've missed about what the spell actually says it does? Is there some bit in the text that says something about it full-on "Obi-wan"ing the target to believe what you want it to? I mean, "the suggestion must be worded in such a way as to sound reasonable" doesn't say "pretty much anything will fly if it's even vaguely in the right ballpark" to me, it says "it's got to be reasonable, you know, don't be dull here". Further, the actual effect of failing the save literally says "it follows the course of action"; nothing, i repeat nothing; zero, zip, nadda, about the target believing lies, ignoring their own perception or anything of the nature.

What am I missing here?

You're interpreting "must be worded in such a manner to make the course of action sound reasonable" as "must be reasonable to the target under current circumstances". Nothing in the text precludes your interpretation, but nothing seems to support it either. The text just as easily supports an interpretation that "sounds reasonable" should be judged based only on the words of the suggestion itself, as viewed from the perspective of a disinterested third party.

Under the latter view, whether or not a suggestion has been worded in a way to make the course of action sound reasonable isn't context dependent--each possible suggestion is either reasonable or unreasonable. In the unreasonable category is everything that is obviously harmful. In the reasonable category is everything that isn't obviously harmful.

Under this interpretation, for example, "come get a drink with me" isn't obviously harmful, and thus is a valid suggestion no matter how much trouble it might cause the target. Under your interpretation the reasonability of going to get a drink with the caster is instead context-dependent.

I happen to think the other interpretation is better supported by the text. The phrase "must be worded in such a manner" suggests to me that the wording is the important part. Under your interpretation, by contrast, the context is more important than the wording. Combined with the fact that the other interpretation is how it worked in previous editions that's enough for me to think the other interpretation is superior. But it's a close call, and reasonable minds can certainly disagree.

Edit: Here's another example. Under the other interpretation "skip your wedding" is obviously harmful, and will probably fail. "Come get a drink with me," is reasonable, even though if cast at the right time it might induce someone to miss their wedding. Hence, the wording is quite important, just like the text of the spell implies. Under your interpretation, anyone about to go to their wedding is outright immune to any suggestion that would cause them to miss their wedding, regardless of how it's worded, which places an emphasis on context that is not mentioned anywhere in the spell description.

[JellyPooga]

You're interpreting "must be worded in such a manner to make the course of action sound reasonable" as "must be reasonable to the target under current circumstances". Nothing in the text precludes your interpretation, but nothing seems to support it either. The text just as easily supports an interpretation that "sounds reasonable" should be judged based only on the words of the suggestion itself, as viewed from the perspective of a disinterested third party.

Under the latter view, whether or not a suggestion has been worded in a way to make the course of action sound reasonable isn't context dependent--each possible suggestion is either reasonable or unreasonable. In the unreasonable category is everything that is obviously harmful. In the reasonable category is everything that isn't obviously harmful.

Under this interpretation, for example, "come get a drink with me" isn't obviously harmful, and thus is a valid suggestion no matter how much trouble it might cause the target. Under your interpretation the reasonability of going to get a drink with the caster is instead context-dependent.

I happen to think the other interpretation is better supported by the text. The phrase "must be worded in such a manner" suggests to me that the wording is the important part. Under your interpretation, by contrast, the context is more important than the wording. Combined with the fact that the other interpretation is how it worked in previous editions that's enough for me to think the other interpretation is superior. But it's a close call, and reasonable minds can certainly disagree.

Edit: Here's another example. Under the other interpretation "skip your wedding" is obviously harmful, and will probably fail. "Come get a drink with me," is reasonable, even though if cast at the right time it might induce someone to miss their wedding. Hence, the wording is quite important, just like the text of the spell implies. Under your interpretation, anyone about to go to their wedding is outright immune to any suggestion that would cause them to miss their wedding, regardless of how it's worded, which places an emphasis on context that is not mentioned anywhere in the spell description.

Ok, that really helps. Thanks :smallsmile:

I'll grant that the sentence following the "reasonable" clause (you know; the one about self immolation and so forth) could seem to support the interpretation that "reasonable" in this context means "not obviously harmful" rather than, as I interpret it, "actually reasonable". I can see the argument that the second sentence is a clarification, rather than an example. That said, the "Context important" interpretation seems more in-keeping with the fact that Suggestion is only a 2nd level spell. "Words important" Suggestion seems too forgiving of what is reasonable (let's face it; "Is it obviously harmful?""No""Ok, it's good" is very very forgiving) and steps on the toes of way too many other spells; I've heard Suggestions like "you'll tell me the truth for the duration of the spell", when Zone of Truth is also 2nd level, for example and we've already mentioned in this thread about the likes of Cause Fear (or Fear), Command and Crown of Madness, not to mention Charm, Dominate and probably others. If a spell seems to be doing the job, or is capable of doing the job of several other spells, including those of higher level...and that spell isn't Wish (which explicitly duplicates other spells as a described effect of the spell)...the interpretation of that spell is probably wrong.

[Unoriginal]

The thing you have to remember, JellyPooga, is that the Suggested course of action is only one thing.

"I suggest you tell the truth" is legit. For ONE sentence, because once the truth is told the suggestion is gone. So it'd be way worse than Zone of Truth (and it would fail if the person said something like "alright, I'll tell the truth" or "I don't know why you want to know that" or anything of the like before answering the question, because at this point they believe they tell the truth, fulfilling the "tell the truth" suggestion).

"I suggest you tell the truth for 8 hours" is not legit, because it involves much more than one thing.

[Teliasen]

Theres a sage advice where someone asked Crawford about combat uses specifically and he gave "Flee! A dragon comes", "Don't attack, I intend no harm" and "Your sword is cursed, drop it"as examples.

I think if dropping your weapon in combat is seen as a reasonable suggestion by the designer whose word on rulings is considered final, "go help your friend" is definitely in the realm of reason.

I also think this really weakens the context argument considering context would say that dropping your weapon is an obviously dangerous move when suggested by an enemy

[Jophiel]

Theres a sage advice where someone asked Crawford about combat uses specifically and he gave "Flee! A dragon comes", "Don't attack, I intend no harm" and "Your sword is cursed, drop it"as examples.

I think if dropping your weapon in combat is seen as a reasonable suggestion by the designer whose word on rulings is considered final, "go help your friend" is definitely in the realm of reason.

I also think this really weakens the context argument considering context would say that dropping your weapon is an obviously dangerous move when suggested by an enemy
Yeah, I was about to post the same. I don't think that "But he doesn't see a dragon so he doesn't believe you, plus fleeing is done with a Fear spell" or "But his sword obviously isn't cursed and never was and you can't make him believe it now, certainly not during combat" would apply to either of those Suggestions.

[Ganymede]

As an illustration... My players were attending a dinner party at Baron Vallakovich's mansion when he dropped dead (due to drinking from a poisoned goblet). Izek Strazni was in attendance and, surmising that he was poisoned by the house chef as he was the only one to handle the goblet, grabbed him so as to kill him. A quick thinking PC Suggested that he back down and help investigate the situation fully. I allowed that because it seemed like a course of action Strazni might have considered; in other words, it seemed reasonable given the context.

Moments later, another PC came stumbling from upstairs with a prisoner in tow, making an unstealthy ruckus (the prisoner had previously attempted to shiv the Burgomaster during a near-riot after St. Andral's Feast). Once Strazni saw the PC with the escaping prisoner, the suggestion to investigate the crime scene no longer became reasonable, so I ended the Suggestion.