Selling a Keep?

[Harrisonvinny]

So one of my Players recently acquired an abandoned keep in game. He has no interest in using it and intends to try and sell it.

The problem is I frankly have no idea how to proceed with that. I don't know how selling property works in the real world let alone D&D world. How would he go about finding a buyer? What kind of legal stuff is there to do? And what would be a price he could get for it if everything else works out? I know the 5E rules and suggestions on prices for building structures, but this bit I don't have a clue on.

He wants the money from it to go towards building his own building in a town (or near a town) to make a tavern for his character to run when he quits adventuring. I like the idea and want to support his plan. I just want to make sure the process is reasonable because this group is big on the ins and outs of how things work.

Thank you for any help.

[Unoriginal]

So one of my Players recently acquired an abandoned keep in game. He has no interest in using it and intends to try and sell it.

The problem is I frankly have no idea how to proceed with that. I don't know how selling property works in the real world let alone D&D world. How would he go about finding a buyer? What kind of legal stuff is there to do? And what would be a price he could get for it if everything else works out? I know the 5E rules and suggestions on prices for building structures, but this bit I don't have a clue on.

He wants the money from it to go towards building his own building in a town (or near a town) to make a tavern for his character to run when he quits adventuring. I like the idea and want to support his plan. I just want to make sure the process is reasonable because this group is big on the ins and outs of how things work.

Thank you for any help.

Well, first step is knowing HOW they acquired that keep.

Do they have an official deed from the realm this keep is standing in? Did they claim a keep in a realm with an official authority? Did they just claim a keep in a territory without official authority? Does this keep have land attached to it?

Afterward, it's only a matter of finding a buyer with both enough money and an interest in such a building, generally among the following groups: nobles, rich merchants/guilds, organisations which want a foothold in the region, or military organisations such as paladin orders. It may cost some money to search for a buyer/advertise you have a keep to sell.

Then you just have to make the sell official with a notary, maybe pay the relevant taxes, and you can count your money.

Or maybe the customer could exchange the keep for a building in-town they own. Also work.

For how much it costs, well, you say you're familiar with the prices in the DMG. So give the PC the gold suggested for a structure like the keep (probably the fort/small castle one), more or less.

[SirGraystone]

If it's abandonned and in the middle of nowhere it may worth very little. If it's close to a village and come with taxes from the land surrounding it then it's easier to sell. How he got the keep change thing too, if he just killed a villain in the keep and claimed it, he may not right own the place. If the king gave it as a reward expecting him to rebuilt the keep and guard the border against orcs, just selling it may upset the king.

[Laserlight]

How interested are you in the details of the process? You can simply say "you spend a couple of months in town dealing with this, and at the end you get ownership of this building and a certain amount of gold. Also, after closing the deal, you discover the roof needs to be repaired, likewise four steps in the back stairs, the upper left window won't close, and ghostly asparagus appears to anyone who spends more than five minutes in the kitchen."

[WeaselGuy]

just selling it may upset the king.

#futureplothook

[Vogie]

This is a worldbuilding issue, not a mechanical one.

Can they even sell it? If you're in a monarchy or feudal-esque state, land like that belongs to the crown. If the PC has acquired it through any way (lineage, inheritance, et cetera), they may not actually own it. They're just the steward of the keep and likely the land around it. For example, In the Game of Thrones series, the Night's Watch has 19 strongholds and properties... but only 3 of them are manned (Castle Black, Shadow Tower, and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, because of lack of manpower and funding). The Commander of the Night's Watch, as independent as they are from the other 7 Kingdoms, can't just sell those other strongholds to other kingdoms or even provinces, because even though it's "theirs", it isn't "theirs".

If they can sell it or otherwise move , you can introduce:

a travelling realtor that does that specifically, for a percentage of the sale price
a group that needs to have a place to live, such as refugees, or displaced nomads who can act as a vassal to the PC, in an attempt to "pay off" the land over time.
an allied neighboring area that was trying to annex the area anyway, and is willing to pay wholesale prices
a group from the PC's monastery or religious sect that is looking for a place to set up a school/convent
a neighboring nation-state that isn't allied or hostile that is willing to pay a premium for it (what could go wrong?)

As you might expect, any of the above solutions are giant plot hooks that the DM can hang things on after a while.

[KorvinStarmast]

So one of my Players recently acquired an abandoned keep in game. He has no interest in using it and intends to try and sell it.

He wants the money from it to go towards building his own building in a town (or near a town) to make a tavern for his character to run when he quits adventuring. If this abandoned keep isn't too far from civilization, your PC can have both things.

He ought to open a Scare B&B in this abandoned keep.
Make an investment.
Set up complementary permanent teleportation circles; one in the town and one just outside the front door of this keep. Have it remodeled into a combination haunted house (make friends with a poltergeist?) and a getaway for nobles to enjoy a weekend out in the country.

By the time he has enough levels to retire, he either knows or has a party member who can cast that spell for a year. Keep adventuring to earn the money to make this happen.
It's less trouble than trying to run a bar. (I have friends in the RL restaurant and bar business. Scare B&B in the long run is a better business proposition!)

[Ninja_Prawn]

they may not actually own it. They're just the steward of the keep and likely the land around it.

I work in the heritage sector and this seems to be the case for most of the medieval castles up here. In fact I've not heard of any castle being bought or sold before the Highland Clearances in the early 19th century (though admittedly my knowledge is not exhaustive). Mostly they change hands when someone falls out of favour with the monarch and their lands get stripped away. Or by conquest during wars.

Once castles get abandoned, they tend to stay that way. Restoring a ruined castle to habitable state is monstrously expensive, and there's usually a good reason for the original abandonment.

D&D worlds tend to be more mercantile though; I imagine you can sell a keep pretty easily in the forgotten realms. It's just a matter of finding a buyer...

[Unoriginal]

I work in the heritage sector and this seems to be the case for most of the medieval castles up here.

Not quite true.



In fact I've not heard of any castle being bought or sold before the Highland Clearances in the early 19th century

I have. I've been to a lecture on the subject. Castles were sometime sold, or much more often left to debtors as guarantee the lord will pay back, which they didn't always do for various reasons.



Mostly they change hands when someone falls out of favour with the monarch and their lands get stripped away.

That is mostly a post-medieval state of affair. The kings in medieval time oftentime simply didn't have the power or the means to just confiscate castles, even their vassals' own.



Or by conquest during wars.

This is more accurate, though. Utterly destroying a castle rarely happened (because that's destroying your own loot and is expensive by itself).



Once castles get abandoned, they tend to stay that way. Restoring a ruined castle to habitable state is monstrously expensive, and there's usually a good reason for the original abandonment.

Depends how ruined. If anything, the strategic importance of where the castle was built may justify the expense, or re-building it from scratch.


We have to remember that the local lords where much more independent than what one can expect of post Louis XIV Europa, and often they got fortresses built of their own pocket, or in inheritance, not to mention owning land, without any king's involvement.

[Keravath]

I think (as another poster commented) this is a world building issue ...

You need to answer a bunch of questions about the world before you can fit selling a keep into a framework.

1) How is your realm divided politically? Do you have organized governments that are responsible for areas of land? Countries, kingdoms, dukedoms, baronies, city states ... there are lots to choose from ... feudal, democratic, dictators etc.

Why is that needed? You need to figure out if there is any LAW in the region where the keep can be found.

If there aren't any laws then ownership is mostly defined by who has the bigger army. The stronger side can own whatever they like. Bandits can come along and take over your abandoned keep and there is nothing you can do about it without a larger force. In an organized country then you might be able to get a local soldier garison to clear the keep of bandits. However you will need to staff the keep with retainers and men at arms if you want to keep it.

2) Can anyone OWN property? In some countries, the nobles own mostly everything and land is rented out to the commoners who are then taxed. A commoner may not even be allowed to be a landowner. Can land be sold? Can the ownership of a keep even change hands or does it need to be granted along with a title to some local gentry?

It could be that whatever paper the character has that says the keep is theirs is actually worthless.

3) Is there any reason anyone would even want this keep? Is it close to good farming or hunting lands? Is it on a major road? Is it in a defensive position? Was it simply a country residence for a noble that was abandoned and fell into disrepair? Is there ANY reason anyone would be interested in living their and restoring the property?

It could be that even if the character can own property that the keep is just located in such an obscure or out of the way location that no one would even want to buy and repair it. Perhaps the character could see if a church wants to buy it and market it as ideal for religious retreats?

So these are the things you need to figure out if you want actual details -
- does your local governance structure allow for the rule of law
- Can individuals own property
- Can property be transferred to anyone or is the market limited
- Where is the property located and is there ANY reason why ANYONE would be interested in buying it

The easy way? Decide that folks can own property and that there is sufficient law at times to ensure property rights ... decide whether the keep is worth anything at all (the location/condition/lawlessness could just make the keep worthless for sale purposes) ... depending on where the keep is located and its current condition ... assign what is a reasonable price for your game. Lower the amount if the keep is in poor condition in a bad location. Give the character 1000gp (or whatever works for your game) and move on ...

[Sigreid]

I would use the rules for selling a magic item of equivalent value and call it good.

[Ninja_Prawn]

That is mostly a post-medieval state of affair. The kings in medieval time oftentime simply didn't have the power or the means to just confiscate castles, even their vassals' own.

I should clarify, I was only talking about the situation in Scotland, because that's all I'm familiar with. I'm thinking of things like the granting of Galloway to Archibald the Grim in 1372, and the subsequent confiscation of Threave Castle by the Crown in 1455.

[Ventruenox]

Why not put forth prospective buyers that would actually want an abandoned keep? This could be a great opportunity to run a parade of possible future villains, antagonists, or other NPCs in moral shades of grey. See which the PCs respond to best and incorporate them into future stories. The fact that the PC is the one who put them there places the responsibility for all uses of the property on the PC. If nothing else, imagine the fun of role-playing the interview process.