The Limits of Tinkering and Alchemy: your opinion?

[Unoriginal]

Through the various published modules, PCs can encounter a variety of mechanisms and technological devices, oftentime but not always being part magical in nature, ranging from the complexe flamethrower trap to fully functioning construct beings, with a wide range of gizmos or more-or-less autonomous automatons in-between, and that is without including what's described in the lore about gnomes and other technological adepts.

PCs can have access to the Tinkerer's Tools proficiency. What do you think should be the limit on what they can create with it, should they spend the time and efforts to do it?

Personally, I'd consider anything purely mexhanical can be created, as long as they spend time & ressources & efforts to find out how it works to do it, but that anything working on magic (ex: the gnomes' Iron Cobra) would require a magic item formula and the regular rules for magic items.


Same question for alchemy. Unlike other editions where crafting fancy things via alchemy was basically limited to casters, 5e has it you can attempt to create substances and reactions with various effects without magic. But what do you think a PC with an Alchemist's kit should be capable of?

This is not a RAW question, the rules make it clear it's up to the DM.

I know some people consider the crafting system to be trash, this is not the debate of this thread.

I'm just curious about your opinions on those things, within the caveats of the current system.

[Cicciograna]

I'd like for tinkering to have some larger part, but that's merely a personal preference (and it's not a random coincidence that I have a particular liking for Eberron).

If I were to place limits on what was available, I'd say that everything invented up to the second half of the 1800 would be viable and enjoyable, and even possibly extend it via magic/alchemy. Like, rudimental photography is available in a purely mechanical fashion, but adding the right alchemical components or the occasional bit of magic from the Illusion school would produce moving pictures like in Harry Potter.

On this matter, I have mixed sentiments for the Rock Gnome "Tinker" trait: while I enjoy it from a purely conceptual point of view, and admit that it's well tied into the "gnome == tinkerer" trope, I wouldn't see it as a trait in and by itself. I would turn it into a feat, and expand the list of devices that could be built.

[strangebloke]

I would say that anything can be made, but that because its just something slapped together with spare parts, its not a very solid construction.

I would do something like: Every time its used, roll a d20+1 for each time its been used, if I get higher than the initial check, the thing breaks.

I'd include even seemingly magical contraptions, like a little wind-up automaton that quickly falls apart. It's on theme.

[Unoriginal]

I would say that anything can be made, but that because its just something slapped together with spare parts, its not a very solid construction.

I would do something like: Every time its used, roll a d20+1 for each time its been used, if I get higher than the initial check, the thing breaks.

I'd include even seemingly magical contraptions, like a little wind-up automaton that quickly falls apart. It's on theme.

Even if they spend downtime to craft it and gold for proper parts?

[Man_Over_Game]

Crafting in 5e is kinda....tricky. Whatever you decide to implement for crafting should follow 5e's design philosophies.

Specifically:


It cannot slow down combat or cause tension to be lost during an adventure
Cannot be so good so that the adventuerer no longer wants to adventure
If using Down Time, crafting should be as a RESULT of Down Time, not the reason for it.


And there's a natural assumption that crafting potions and mechanisms are things that will require several days in a town to perfect, but that's exactly what you want to avoid. If the players all decide they want to have some Down Time to go do their own things for a while (for development purposes or whatever), that's fine, but we cannot go back to the way things were with spending a week or so as an artificer to come back with a +1 plate mail of Firebreathing.

I think something like this is best done as a class/subclass, and able to be done in short periods of time. A great example of "crafting done right" is with the Forge Cleric. Enchant something to be a +1 piece of armor each day, and being able to "smith" together a metal object during a short rest. Despite having very "craftsman" style abilities, nothing they do really requires that much time to implement.

I think that's why crafting inherently sucks in 5e: nothing should be as efficient as adventuring. Adventuring has great peril involved, where crafting does not, so it should generally be better to find/steal/buy the thing rather than making it yourself.

If we are to create a new system that allows new things to be made that are actually good and cost efficient, they cannot synergize well with class levels. Or rather, a player with proficiency in Crafting tools should not be inherently better than a player who has a musical instrument proficiency instead, since they're both gained in the same way and using the same resources. A good solution to that is just having combat-effective crafting to be part of a class feature, like with the Artificer class, so that any player with crafting won't just automatically be better than any player without crafting.

We should avoid repeating the same mistakes of prior versions, and make a plan that has longevity.

TL DR: Crafting should suck so bad that players should never be doing it instead of adventuring.

If it has to be used while adventuring, make it HOW they adventure (as in, with class abilities/feats)

Just some of my observations on the topic.

---------

For Tinkering specifically, do note that the ability to make mechanical devices is explicitly a racial trait for gnomes, and that (according to Xanathar's) the regular use of Tinker's Tools is to repair mundane items, like swords and doors and such. Even a 20 DC Tinker's Tools action results in nothing more than making a quick patch on something. I don't necessarily agree with that (breaking handcuffs is also a DC 20 check, yet a nearly superhuman feat), but I think it's important to mention what the RAW currently has for your options.

For more expanded options, take a look at the Kaladesh UA material. One of the options it provides is something that combines Gnomish Tinkering and Ritual Caster into a single feat, and it's a cool concept (but the rules for learning new recipes is very limiting).

[KorvinStarmast]

As Thomas Edison would advise you, 99% perspiration 1% inspiration.

Make each unique thing that they are trying to make be possible, but also make it possible for it to fail on its first trial.
(If you doubt the wisdom of that, consider the tinkerer's product called the Leonardo 609 tilt rotor that had a fatal crash a couple of years ago in Italy. The prototype of the Bell 525 likewise. The second F-14 Tomcat ever built crashed near Bethpage, New York; hydraulics went all wrong ... other cases in plentitude)

Inventors deal with this all of the time. (I have a few friends with RL patents)

Let them try anything, and give it a chance to succeed or fail.

[strangebloke]

Even if they spend downtime to craft it and gold for proper parts?

Well, I'd view that differently.

For one thing, they'll find that some things aren't really possible to create a stable version of, like the aforementioned automaton. But other things... sure, you can have a pocketwatch.

The real problem is, you don't want it to turn into a snowball effect, where the party tinkerer trivializes encounters because he spent 100 GP and made a bucket of bombs which he chucks into the room the boss monster is in.

Stuff like that chips away at the fiction.

I think its more fun as a "Tinker as needed ability." Lost in a cave? Make a compass real quick! Trying to fix a destroyed door mechanism? Fix it really quick! Enemies in the next room? Make a trap and then lure them over.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Not getting into the argument about the place of crafting in the game, I tend to see 'tinkering' as having quite a few limits.

First of all, it's not smithing, carpentry or glassblowing; you can't build a robot or a crane with tinker's tools alone. Secondly, it's limited to pre-industrial technology. I wouldn't allow a tinker to build anything electronic, or anything requiring industrial machinery like welding torches or angle grinders. I would, however, allow a tinker to produce optical lenses.

For me, tinkering is about small, mechanical systems. You'd use it to make spyglasses, compasses, fire lighters, clocks, gearboxes, music boxes, traps, puzzle-locks, barometers, etc. Maybe some basic machine components, valves, mechanical sensors (like fusible links and bimetallic strips).

I think alchemy is pseudomagical. So you can use it to create magic potions of various types (though obviously you'd have to be a spellcaster as well as an alchemist). I kinda feel like some potions are herbalism, some are alchemy and some can be made by both. But that's probably just me. Aside from that, alchemy also creates acids, glues, holy water, inks, oils, paints, salts, solvents, artificial poisons, alchemist's fire, gunpowder & fireworks, sunscreen, and magic items like alchemy jugs, Nolzur's marvelous pigments, oils of sharpness, candles of invocation and dusts of disappearance. Alchemy would include chemical 'tricks' like invisible ink, oxidising agents, smoke bombs, etc.

[Unoriginal]

Well, you don't need to be a spellcaster to craft those magic items, only the relevant tool proficiency and the formula for the item.

[Ninja_Prawn]

What about the bit on DMG 128 where it says "...must have a formula that describes the construction of the item. The character must also be a spellcaster..."

I don't have a problem with houserules that change that, but it's where I'm basing my assumptions to begin with.

[Wildarm]

I love the concept of a tinker specialist but there is no solid PC concept for it currently. All the items and functionality of tinker tools are rather easily recreated by low level magic and cantrips. Mending, Light, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion can do pretty much all the things a person could do with Tinker Tools. I typically offer advantage on investigating and fixing mechanical objects if a player has Tinker Tool proficiency as the main benefit of those tools.

If someone was really keen, I'd probably let them spend gold and downtime time to try and create more dramatic effects usually up to the equivalent of a 1st or maybe 2nd level spell. Takes an tinker tool check(Int) to see if you can create the object you want. Time try and create the design is about the same to copying a spell into your spellbook of similar level. The the cost to make the object in time and gold is the same as it would take to scribe a scroll of that spell level. It works fairly well and can give a player the feel of a Tinker. Now the balance issue here is if this effectively gives low level scroll access to a character. I'd probably design a flaw or drawback to the items to help balance it. Probably DC 10 Int Check to get the contraption working properly. A wizard doesn't need to do any of this since he can just use magic so any player keen on being an effective tinker will have had to commit a serious amount of stats into a normally non-optimal stat like Intelligence. A fair enough trade off IMO.

Alchemy is fun and I usually let players try and create potions and chemicals with it. Fancy stuff(Non-PHB) typically takes rare ingredients and a fair amount of gold and time. Not a big deal if a player is really keen on brewing up some consumables. Skill in the kit can also give you advantage on chemical related knowledge and investigations.

[Unoriginal]

What about the bit on DMG 128 where it says "...must have a formula that describes the construction of the item. The character must also be a spellcaster..."

I don't have a problem with houserules that change that, but it's where I'm basing my assumptions to begin with.

The Xanathar's rules on the subject say otherwise. Part of why I consider them better than the DMG's.

[Slayn82]

I think alchemy and tinkering should be implemented as an alternative to scrolls and magic items, with a lower ceiling of power and a comparatively higher risk/reward.

Something like:

Crafting batches of potions, but if you fail there's relevant consequences, making you at least lose time and money from ingredients and/or materiel destroyed.

Also, formulas would have a set quality:

You can use the formula and craft a potion for standard price; better quality potions can be made from better ingredients, that are more expensive and harder to proccess, using more expensive methods jealously guarded by the experts.

Larger batches could be done by experienced alchemists instead of using the effort on the harder formulas. Novices can also create larger batches by first obtaining a high quality potion and then mixing it on cheaper ingredients. That's usually considered a waste, but can be done relatively cheaply, when you need those several potions.

Or a less skilled alchemist may attempt to concentrate several potions into a stronger one, but the process becomes more expensive and difficult, as you need to extract impurities and add catalists, making it gradually more powerful.

Better equipment improves a less skilled alchemist to create potions of better quality or chances of production of a larger amount of standard quality, but it's fragile. Basic gear gives no bonuses and limits your output, but it's easily obtained.

Effects like fire, acid, blindness, itching, sleep, confusion, weakness, etc, would be available. My reference on this is pretty much Darklands alchemy formulas, 22 nice effects.

http://darklands.wikia.com/wiki/Alchemy

Not bad for a 25 year old game.

[Tanarii]

Even if they spend downtime to craft it and gold for proper parts?
And find the requisite magical formula.

This kind of stuff is clearly a magical item, and it should follow the magic item creation rules. :smallamused: Formula, adventuring quest for an exotic item, and appropriate tool proficiency or arcana skill.

As you say, one of the neat things about crafting magic times in 5e is it's not only done by casters. Anyone with the appropriate tool, materials, and the requisite formula (ie instructions) can do it. Go go gadget gnome! Or twisted Norse dwarves smith, as the case may be.

[Slayn82]

Tinkering is probably something combining magic or alchemy as power source and a mechanism dedicated to a single function. It should be more based on experience (Prof bonuses) and manual hability (dexterity).

That function may be very useful, but it's still probably not something you can make to act autonomously, unless it's part of a trap with a proper trigger, or you are actually controling it with an spell (mage hands, invisible servant) or class feature.

So, we need to somewhat define some reasonable parameters for power sources and mechanisms. Since a long time, in D&D, getting magical powers through spells and items is pretty much the only way to increase a character's strengths. Because they are very cost effective, but how about those who aren't invested on this area?

For instance, let's say the Knock spell. You cast it on a door, and it unlocks, in an action. How a tinker would approach the task?

There's the Thieve's tools, but if the task DC is too hard, you can either destroy the door or destroy the lock. You could destroy the lock slowly and silently with a powerful acid, or swiftly but obviously with a Drill tool. Or you could blast the door open with a bomb, striking whatever is close by behind the door, but alerting everything nearby. The Drill tool would be the cheapest, the acid the slightly more expensive, and the bomb the way more expensive.

But if you introduce bombs, people will use them for combat, and then several classes that focus on dealing damage will lose their niche. What to do?

You can make bombs very heavy items. You need to carry a 20 pound mortar to deal the same effect of a shatter spell. Every time you double the amount of bombs, you increase tge equivalent the spell level by 1. All bombs in the same area of effect detonate simultaneously.

There could be better bombs, but they cost more and are pretty much alternative tools to scrolls. Cost double, but can be crafted from ingredients of lesser standards than magic items use, so you can create them on more remote places.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I let a party use tinker's tools, a magic battery they had, and the remains of a magitek drone they found to build an NPC helper. That thing became the party mascot. When a big bad dominated it, they were ticked off royally. Never seen a party so mad. Wasn't much, just a floating camera with a weak energy blast that couldn't even talk--it just made bleeping sounds like R2-D2. But they loved that thing.

10/10, would allow again.

[Derpldorf]

In short, the DM is the limit.

Longer answer is that while Xanathars expanded the tool kits a bit it has always been a framework for the three C's (Coordinate, Compromise, Cooperate) There is nothing standing between you and a mech suit or a Zeppelin except you and your DM's willingness to put in the effort to make it work.

He who asks earns closure in one way or the other, he who is silent earns nothing but what ifs.