Is Kensei the only way to have a two-handed finesse weapon?

[Uncumber]

Hi there!

I'll explain my predicament, but it will be a little wall of text just about the problems of brewing a character, so if you don't want to read, the 'TLDR' is pretty much the title of this thread =)

As I said in my previous thread, I'm pretty new to D&D - I've played a few games so far and I've been having an absolute amazing time. However, this past week I've really been trying to put in the time to research everything and make my first proper character.

So, I've come up with a backstory, a race, a 'theme' - well, pretty much everything now. Except I'm a little stuck on what class to actually pick.

The 'feel' I was going for was a lightly armoured, or even completely unarmoured 'fighter' class. Preferably using dexterity over strength, and preferably not having any spells. And preferably using a long sword, and again, preferably using it two-handed.

In my head I've got sort of a (for lack of a better word at the moment!) Jedi character. Light and dexterous, yet extremely skilled with a long-blade.

SO - looking at the classes, it seems... Kensei is my only option? Is that really true?

Looking at the Fighter classes, both Champion and Battle Master seem very appealing, especially Battle Master, being a 'master swordsman' with all the maneuvers. However, it seems there are no two-handed finesse weapons, so if I'd want to go this whole 'nimble swordsman' route, I would have to choose a rapier - and forgo using it with two hands. What's more, if I did that, then I'd have a free hand (I don't want to dual-wield) - which would be more or less useless considering I don't really want to be spell casting. This all sounds like it could be a bit of a problem.

SO - Kensei gives me the option to choose any weapon as a finesse weapon, so I can choose a longsword (or even a greatsword, whatever I want!) - It seems like an ideal fit. That being said, the monk class in general isn't really the feel I was going for, I know I said 'Jedi', but that's not really what I have in mind, that was just an example - a more martial and much less 'spiritual/gimmicky' character would be ideal.

So after all that, my question is really - is it possible at all to have a dexterous, two-handed-weapon character, apart from a Kensei? Are there any feats that might help? Or some other class, or build, that I'm simply not considering?

If not, it's ok, I may have to re-think the character slightly to conform to the rules. But this has just been nagging me the past couple of days, and would love some input just to confirm I haven't missed anything, or that I'm looking at things the wrong way.

Thanks for reading!

[Morty]

A possible but crude method is to simply wield a rapier with the duelling style and describe it as wielding the weapon in two hands. Using two-handed weapons with a degree of finesse has always been anathema to D&D, for some reason.

[nickl_2000]

For a long sword, yes that's the only way (aside from the magical item sunblade or shadowblade spell). Any Monk can wield a spear or staff two handed and use their dex modifier.


It is important to not that a Kensei doesn't make a longsword a finesse weapon, it makes it a monk weapon (which allows you to use dex instead of strength). For the most part this doesn't matter, but if you were a Rogue you wouldn't be able to sneak attack with a longsword as a Kensai.

[Daghoulish]

Hey bud don't mean to rain on your parade, but while you can choose a longsword as your kensei weapon you cannot chose the greatsword. The greatsword has the heavy property which makes it not available as a kensei weapon choice, with an exception made for the longbow.

[Uncumber]

A possible but crude method is to simply wield a rapier with the duelling style and describe it as wielding the weapon in two hands. Using two-handed weapons with a degree of finesse has always been anathema to D&D, for some reason.

Argh, I mean, that is definitely possible (and I hadn't thought of it!) but you're right - it is a rather crude solution. That's strange though, I mean, there are many example in history and fantasy of 'finesse with two-handed weapons' - I really would have thought there would be some way to implement it in game.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, the Kensai is the only way to use a two-handed longsword with DEX.

The Monk in general is the only class that let you use two-handed anything with DEX .

If you don't like the *feel* of the Kensei, just re-fluff it. Ki points? Nah, you're using battle techniques as studied in the Schola Inimica.

You could also just be a Fighter who has both high DEX and high STR. It's not an anathema, you know.

Or you could look for the Barbarian. You can be a nimble-feeling combatant without high-DEX. Just fluff the rage into some kind of hyper-focus that let you dodge most of the attack's force and so gives you resistance.

[Uncumber]

Hey bud don't mean to rain on your parade, but while you can choose a longsword as your kensei weapon you cannot chose the greatsword. The greatsword has the heavy property which makes it not available as a kensei weapon, with an exception made for the longbow.

Ah you're completely right! I think I got a little carried away there. Well that's ok anyway I was thinking a longsword anyway =)

Also ''It is important to not that a Kensei doesn't make a longsword a finesse weapon, it makes it a monk weapon (which allows you to use dex instead of strength). For the most part this doesn't matter, but if you were a Rogue you wouldn't be able to sneak attack with a longsword as a Kensai.'' (Sorry I don't know how to quote more than one person yet!)

Yeah, thinking back, I think I was aware of this - but because of the similarities I just wrote 'finesse' (and actually I was thinking 'finesse' in my head too) - but you're right, they're definitely not exactly the same thing.

[solidork]

You could multiclass Kensai with Battlemaster, and it would actually be pretty good. You don't really get anything too superhuman until the higher levels of monk, it would mostly just emphasize what an exceptional athelete/combatant you are.

Monk 3/Battlemaster 17 would work perfectly fine. You delay your extra attack for a while, but you're also making two attacks from the start because of Martial Arts.

[Unoriginal]

I mean, there are many example in history and fantasy of 'finesse with two-handed weapons'

D&D is neither history nor the fantasy of other works, but I'm curious about what those examples are.

[Uncumber]

Yes, the Kensai is the only way to use a two-handed longsword with DEX.

The Monk in general is the only class that let you use two-handed anything with DEX .

If you don't like the *feel* of the Kensei, just re-fluff it. Ki points? Nah, you're using battle techniques as studied in the Schola Inimica.

You could also just be a Fighter who has both high DEX and high STR. It's not an anathema, you know.

Or you could look for the Barbarian. You can be a nimble-feeling combatant without high-DEX. Just fluff the rage into some kind of hyper-focus that let you dodge most of the attack's force and so gives you resistance.

Regarding a fighter with high dex and strength, I was thinking that - I was just worried about being a little MAD. Especially if I wanted to dip into another stat for RP/skill purposes, such as wisdom or intelligence (which I was considering). However, I mean, I can't have it all ways, so that's something to think about.

As to re-fluffing the kensei, I did consider that, but.. hmm. It just seems as if I'd be re-fluffing/stretching kind of a lot. I mean, monks have a lot of strange abilities (immune to disease/poison, understanding all language, having a 'diamond soul', not suffering from age, somehow becoming invisible...) - it's just.... a lot to refluff o.O

[jiriku]

It is possible to make a hexblade warlock who uses Charisma to attack with a two-handed weapon, and you get a bunch of neat tricks that would feel a little like playing a Jedi consular. But the monk's focus on athleticism definitely makes kensei your go-to choice for a character who plays like a Jedi knight.

[Morty]

Argh, I mean, that is definitely possible (and I hadn't thought of it!) but you're right - it is a rather crude solution. That's strange though, I mean, there are many example in history and fantasy of 'finesse with two-handed weapons' - I really would have thought there would be some way to implement it in game.

It is strange, but at this point it's become one of those things that D&D simply doesn't do.

[Uncumber]

D&D is neither history nor the fantasy of other works, but I'm curious about what those examples are.

Uh, honestly, I was speaking more along the lines of 'there must be!' rather than having any solid examples in my head.

But fantasy fiction? Ok, definitely the Jedi I mentioned. I'm not a Star Wars nut at all, but I'm almost 100% sure I remember more than one Jedi wielding their Sabre with two hands, and also being generally 'nimble'.

Doesn't Elrond in LotR fight two-handed? I mean, he's an elf, he hardly fights in the same way that, I don't know, a barbarian wielding a greataxe would.

Talking of elves, the Sword Masters in Warhammer?

In real life - oh sheesh, I don't know. Samurai? Wasn't a katana often wielded with two hands? And I imagine they were lighter (more balanced?) than a longsword. I think my ignorance is more than showing here though.

I suppose my point is that I believe there ought to be some distinction, mechanically, between a screaming barbarian orc warlord wielding a greatsword, and a nimble and elegant high elf wielding one.

[Morty]

I can't link anything from YouTube now, but if you Google "longsword fencing" you're going to see many examples of two-handed weapons being wielded with grace and finesse.

[Man_Over_Game]

Uh, honestly, I was speaking more along the lines of 'there must be!' rather than having any solid examples in my head.

But fantasy fiction? Ok, definitely the Jedi I mentioned. I'm not a Star Wars nut at all, but I'm almost 100% sure I remember more than one Jedi wielding their Sabre with two hands, and also being generally 'nimble'.

Doesn't Elrond in LotR fight two-handed? I mean, he's an elf, he hardly fights in the same way that, I don't know, a barbarian wielding a greataxe would.

Talking of elves, the Sword Masters in Warhammer?

In real life - oh sheesh, I don't know. Samurai? Wasn't a katana often wielded with two hands? And I imagine they were lighter (more balanced?) than a longsword. I think my ignorance is more than showing here though.

I suppose my point is that I believe there ought to be some distinction, mechanically, between a screaming barbarian orc warlord wielding a greatsword, and a nimble and elegant high elf wielding one.



To be fair, DnD elves are different than LotR elves. LotR elves had super strength, and their metal was lighter. The reason we historically didn't make weapons that large was because the metal was too valuable and too heavy to justify giant weapons that nobody could lift.

Now, I'm not saying everything needs to be based on real life, but the point is that in order for a weapon to be used with finesse, it has to be so light and quick that the strength of the user cannot matter. Consider that for a moment, and how many weapons actually fit that description.


DnD Elves also generally have the lowest strength than any other character race PC's generally use.

Not only does Kensei fit mechanically, lore-wise, this is exactly the kind of option you're describing. They are defined has treating their weapon as an extension of themselves, and literally learn their weapon in the same way they learn how to friggin' paint. For that kind of grace, a weapon has to be more than just a tool, and only the Kensei class considers a weapon anything more than that.

[jaappleton]

Its either Legendary or Artifact rarity, but the Windvayne spear from PotA is Finesse.

[Uncumber]

To be fair, DnD elves are different than LotR elves. LotR elves had super strength, and their metal was lighter. The reason we historically didn't make weapons that large was because the metal was too valuable and too heavy to justify giant weapons that nobody could lift.

Now, I'm not saying everything needs to be based on real life, but the point is that in order for a weapon to be used with finesse, it has to be so light and quick that the strength of the user cannot matter. Consider that for a moment, and how many weapons actually fit that description.


DnD Elves also generally have the lowest strength than any other character race PC's generally use.

Not only does Kensei fit mechanically, lore-wise, this is exactly the kind of option you're describing. They are defined has treating their weapon as an extension of themselves, and literally learn their weapon in the same way they learn how to friggin' paint. For that kind of grace, a weapon has to be more than just a tool, and only the Kensei class considers a weapon anything more than that.

Mmmm those are all really good points I honestly hadn't considered. I just had a 'fantasy' in my head, I genuinely didn't give much thought to logical implications of it. I may re-consider things a little now after reading the replies in this thread =)

And yes I mean, the kensei is what I'm going for - but well, simply put, being a monk, they're also a lot more than I was going for (Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Empty Body, Stillness of Mind etc. etc.) - as a user above me posted, I could definitely just 'refluff' that stuff. Just to me it seems rather a lot to refluff, considering those aspects are so not what I had in mind. BUT as I wrote above also somewhere, I can't have it all ways! It seems I've had the options described here in the thread, now it's just up to me to think about them!

[Scarytincan]

I was also going to point out as someone did early on sunblade. Especially if u like the jedi feel. Only thing being you would have to get with ur DM on that front (maybe inheritor background?)

[tieren]

I think Kensei is a fine pick, all the eastern mysticism stuff is just fluff, describe it however you like, you don't have to be from a monastery.

Other good choices for the character concept, I would strongly look at a Hex Blade warlock, you can use the longsword, wear little armor, and not have to be a strong brute (can use Charisma to fight but still have strong Dex for your AC and skills).

A little more out there, but if you make a longsword out of wood, you could cast Shillelagh on it to attack with wisdom at the same damage die as a regular long sword. Can get shillelagh from a number of sources (class dips, feat, etc...)

[Man_Over_Game]

Mmmm those are all really good points I honestly hadn't considered. I just had a 'fantasy' in my head, I genuinely didn't give much thought to logical implications of it. I may re-consider things a little now after reading the replies in this thread =)

You do have a few good points, though. Fantasy-wise, it'd be really cool to see.

I could see a homebrew subclass fitting this pretty well. I'd probably make it some kind of Fighter that uses transmutation with their gear to modify the item's traits, like making a Halberd feather light, losing the Heavy feature and gaining Finesse, or something along those lines. Or alternatively, they can enlarge a weapon, giving it Reach and Heavy, but keeping all other traits (so you could make a giant Short Sword that retains Finesse).

Lastly, ask your DM about finding a weapon or an alchemist that does what you're looking to do. I might not grant Reach with Finesse, due to how much that would continue to make Strength the red-headed step-child of 5e, but I might make a close-ranged heavy weapon have Finesse as a magical item. Maybe it's a gem that turns solid metal it touches into being featherweight, granting non-reach weapons Finesse and losing Heavy.

[Uncumber]

I think Kensei is a fine pick, all the eastern mysticism stuff is just fluff, describe it however you like, you don't have to be from a monastery.

Other good choices for the character concept, I would strongly look at a Hex Blade warlock, you can use the longsword, wear little armor, and not have to be a strong brute (can use Charisma to fight but still have strong Dex for your AC and skills).

A little more out there, but if you make a longsword out of wood, you could cast Shillelagh on it to attack with wisdom at the same damage die as a regular long sword. Can get shillelagh from a number of sources (class dips, feat, etc...)

Hmm, maybe refluffing the kensei is the way to go. I've no idea how i'll 'demystify' half of the monks abilities, but I'll have a think on it!

You know I did strongly think about the Warlock class right back when I was first imagining this character, however in the end I decided I just really don't want them being a spellcaster. I know a hexblade has a big focus on their weapon, which I do want! But they do also cast a lot of spells..

The more I think about it, the more I think refluffing a kensei might be the way to go.

[Ganymede]

Regarding a fighter with high dex and strength, I was thinking that - I was just worried about being a little MAD. Especially if I wanted to dip into another stat for RP/skill purposes, such as wisdom or intelligence (which I was considering).

Its only MAD if you insist on those stats being maxed out. If you rein back your expectations a hair, it is doable.

[Snowbluff]

Sunswords are versatile finesse weapons.

[Uncumber]

You do have a few good points, though. Fantasy-wise, it'd be really cool to see.

I could see a homebrew subclass fitting this pretty well. I'd probably make it some kind of Fighter that uses transmutation with their gear to modify the item's traits, like making a Halberd feather light, losing the Heavy feature and gaining Finesse, or something along those lines. Or alternatively, they can enlarge a weapon, giving it Reach and Heavy, but keeping all other traits (so you could make a giant Short Sword that retains Finesse).

Lastly, ask your DM about finding a weapon or an alchemist that does what you're looking to do. I might not grant Reach with Finesse, due to how much that would continue to make Strength the red-headed step-child of 5e, but I might make a close-ranged heavy weapon have Finesse as a magical item. Maybe it's a gem that turns solid metal it touches into being featherweight, granting non-reach weapons Finesse and losing Heavy.


Thanks for your response and advice! =)

The thing is, I'm hesitant to ask my DM any privileges at the moment because I'm so new to the game. Maybe when I'm more used to how everything works, then maybe. But just right now I'm really anxious about having too much about 'me'. At the time being I guess I'd just prefer to play things as much in line with their idea of the game as possible.

[Uncumber]

Sunswords are versatile finesse weapons.

I didn't know what a Sunsword was, so I've just googled it. And...

Well, ok, that seems perfect. EXCEPT (I mean, typically.. :smallsigh: ) my character will 100% all be about gloom and dark and general negativity. If it was an 'UNsunsword' - now that would be actually perfect.

Again, I know, I suppose I could refluff... (and change damage type? and make it not a light source?). It just feels like I'd be taking liberties though, which I'm so adverse to doing when I'm so new to the game.

It's honestly ok though, I've had so much great information in this thread - I don't want to sound as if I'm neglecting what anybody is suggesting.

[Man_Over_Game]

Thanks for your response and advice! =)

The thing is, I'm hesitant to ask my DM any privileges at the moment because I'm so new to the game. Maybe when I'm more used to how everything works, then maybe. But just right now I'm really anxious about having too much about 'me'. At the time being I guess I'd just prefer to play things as much in line with their idea of the game as possible.

Talk to your DM and see what he thinks is valid.

If a player came up to me and said, "Hey, MOG, is there any way you'd let me use a two handed STR weapon for the Bladesinger (Dancing melee Wizard sword-wielding hippy)?"
To which, I'd say, "Uh, you realize your armor is Light, your AC scales with DEX, you won't be attacking with that axe all too much because you're a full casting WIZARD, right? But sure. If you want to gimp yourself, go for it".

Just talk to your DM and ask what his solutions are, other than the Kensei. If he says there's no other choice, then you didn't lose anything that you didn't already know. But overcommunication, especially with your DM, is never possible.

[Uncumber]

Talk to your DM and see what he thinks is valid.

If a player came up to me and said, "Hey, MOG, is there any way you'd let me use a two handed STR weapon for the Bladesinger (Dancing melee Wizard sword-wielding hippy)?"
To which, I'd say, "Uh, you realize your armor is Light, your AC scales with DEX, you won't be attacking with that axe all too much because you're a full casting WIZARD, right? But sure. If you want to gimp yourself, go for it".

Just talk to your DM and ask what his solutions are, other than the Kensei. If he says there's no other choice, then you didn't lose anything that you didn't already know. But overcommunication, especially with your DM, is never possible.

Hmm, alright you've convinced me =D I think I'll plan out a character just in case they don't agree anyway, then you're right, I definitely won't have lost anything, and I won't have to go back to the drawing board. But if they're cool with changing a little, then that would just be awesome. Thank you!

[dejarnjc]

Hey, you could use this chart (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/a36yri/finding_5es_missing_weapons_v20_simplified_and/) to build one and run it by your DM. DnD is about having fun and I don't see how your character concept would impact game balance at all so I'd personally allow it in a heartbeat as a DM.

[Laserlight]

Just using a weapon with grace and skill doesn't make it "finesse"--you can do that with a two handed sword. In fact, it's easier to look fast and graceful with a 2H sword than a longsword, because you've got better leverage. (I'd say "intended for precision stabbing" is what qualifies a weapon as finesse, except I think whip and scimitar both have the tag, so...well, that's not the only thing in the weapon table that'll have you scratching your head in puzzlement).

I'd ask about refluffing a longsword as "finesse when used 2H" and see if your DM approves.

[RedMage125]

D&D is neither history nor the fantasy of other works, but I'm curious about what those examples are.

I have a friend from college who works with a combat acting troupe out of Michigan called The Duelists. They came to our college once and did a demonstration for the theatre department when we were training for Measure For Measure. One of the guys used a greataxe in a style that was ABSOLUTELY 'finesse'. He had one hand on the handle, the other hand, open-palm, halfway up the haft. He spun the weapon around in graceful, close arcs around his body. It was quite elegant.

[Ganymede]

Just using a weapon with grace and skill doesn't make it "finesse"--you can do that with a two handed sword.

Yeah, a lot of people confuse the weapon property "finesse" with the application of skill and talent; that's their proficiency bonus, not their dexterity modifier.

[PhantomSoul]

Just using a weapon with grace and skill doesn't make it "finesse"--you can do that with a two handed sword. In fact, it's easier to look fast and graceful with a 2H sword than a longsword, because you've got better leverage. (I'd say "intended for precision stabbing" is what qualifies a weapon as finesse, except I think whip and scimitar both have the tag, so...well, that's not the only thing in the weapon table that'll have you scratching your head in puzzlement).

I'd ask about refluffing a longsword as "finesse when used 2H" and see if your DM approves.

I think of Finesse as a consequence of (a) overall weight, and (b) a center of mass near the hilt/hands. It seems to work pretty well, both for existing weapons (e.g. compare axes to swords) and for real-life (e.g. the example of more "finesse-y" axe use is specifically making it not act like a normal cleaver by bringing the center of mass closer to the hand and therefore sacrificing damage potential because the weight of the head is no longer used as the main source of damage potential).

Edit:

Yeah, a lot of people confuse the weapon property "finesse" with the application of skill and talent; that's their proficiency bonus, not their dexterity modifier.

Very much agreed! (And sure, in real life it'll always be some combination of strength and dexterity... but the goal's to simplify for the game.)

[Morty]

I was going to link a video of longsword fencing, but I see people have already managed to explain away why it's not quite good enough. The tradition of saying that if D&D doesn't support something, it's not worth supporting, is alive and well.

[Crgaston]

I didn't know what a Sunsword was, so I've just googled it. And...

Well, ok, that seems perfect. EXCEPT (I mean, typically.. :smallsigh: ) my character will 100% all be about gloom and dark and general negativity. If it was an 'UNsunsword' - now that would be actually perfect.

Again, I know, I suppose I could refluff... (and change damage type? and make it not a light source?). It just feels like I'd be taking liberties though, which I'm so adverse to doing when I'm so new to the game.

It's honestly ok though, I've had so much great information in this thread - I don't want to sound as if I'm neglecting what anybody is suggesting.

You know.... If you put 3 levels in Great Old One Warlock (for the telepathy) and then the rest in fighter, you could leave your Cha at 13 and be able to use the Shadow Blade spell 2x per short rest. Shadow Blade is finessable and even throwable, but it does 2d8 per hit, so that would be super easy to imagine as using in both hands. Plus it gives you advantage for being in darkness or dim light, keeping to your theme a little better. Go Tomelock so you will have a bunch of any-class cantrips for Jedi powers. You could also take Repelling Blast as one of your Invocations for a ranged Force Push effect. Yes, your to-hit bonus will be below par unless you boost Cha some more, but if you're just using it for the repelling factor, having the extra chances to hit as you level up will help mitigate that.

As to your Fighter atchetype, Battlemaster is always good, and Samurai could be fun and powerful as well. EK would add even more cantrips, and you don't need Int for Shield and Absorb Elements, or any of the best EK spells.

[Man_Over_Game]

You know.... If you put 3 levels in Great Old One Warlock (for the telepathy) and then the rest in fighter, you could leave your Cha at 13 and be able to use the Shadow Blade spell 2x per short rest. Shadow Blade is finessable and even throwable, but it does 2d8 per hit, so that would be super easy to imagine as using in both hands. Plus it gives you advantage for being in darkness or dim light, keeping to your theme a little better. Go Tomelock so you will have a bunch of any-class cantrips for Jedi powers. You could also take Repelling Blast as one of your Invocations for a ranged Force Push effect. Yes, your to-hit bonus will be below par unless you boost Cha some more, but if you're just using it for the repelling factor, having the extra chances to hit as you level up will help mitigate that.

As to your Fighter atchetype, Battlemaster is always good, and Samurai could be fun and powerful as well. EK would add even more cantrips, and you don't need Int for Shield and Absorb Elements, or any of the best EK spells.

A lot of this mechanically works pretty well, although I'd recommend Hexblade + Samurai, personally. Hexblade gets you Shield, which is one of the best melee spells you can get. The Hexblade's Curse lets you crit on a 19/20, which works especially well with the Samurai's Advantage.

I'd do it like this:


Fighter 1
Fighter 1, Warlock (Hexblade) 1
Fighter 1, Warlock (Hexblade) 2
Fighter 1, Warlock (Hexblade) 3
Fighter 2, Warlock (Hexblade) 3
Fighter (Samurai) 3, Warlock (Hexblade) 3, continue leveling into Fighter


Starting into Fighter gets you better armor proficiencies (in case you want to use heavy armor despite the lower speed) and more HP.

Be an elf, get Elven Accuracy, and make your attacks with about a 27% chance to crit.

[Xetheral]

D&D used to support two-handed finesse weapons with the Elven Courtblade, basically a greatsword with slightly lower damage and the finesse property. Races of the Wild in 3.0 is the first example I'm aware of, but there could be a version in earlier editions too.

[Crgaston]

A lot of this mechanically works pretty well, although I'd recommend Hexblade + Samurai, personally. Hexblade gets you Shield, which is one of the best melee spells you can get. The Hexblade's Curse lets you crit on a 19/20, which works especially well with the Samurai's Advantage.

I'd do it like this:


Fighter 1
Fighter 1, Warlock (Hexblade) 1
Fighter 1, Warlock (Hexblade) 2
Fighter 1, Warlock (Hexblade) 3
Fighter 2, Warlock (Hexblade) 3
Fighter (Samurai) 3, Warlock (Hexblade) 3, continue leveling into Fighter


Starting into Fighter gets you better armor proficiencies (in case you want to use heavy armor despite the lower speed) and more HP.

Without extra slots from EK you’re burning your Shadow Blade slots to cast Shield, though.

Having a Greatsword with Cha as an attack stat from Hexblade would let you keep both Str and Dex at a moderate level (14ish) and then just boost Cha, and then you wouldn’t be dependent on Shadow Blade at all.

[Man_Over_Game]

Without extra slots from EK you’re burning your Shadow Blade slots to cast Shield, though.

Having a Greatsword with Cha as an attack stat from Hexblade would let you keep both Str and Dex at a moderate level (14ish) and then just boost Cha, and then you wouldn’t be dependent on Shadow Blade at all.

The OP really wants to make a high damage, melee specific Finesse build that used a weapon, and Shadow blade seemed to fit the most. EK is an ok fit, I mostly just mention Shield to be used until the OP hits level 3 in Hexblade, when they can swap it out for something else (or keep it, if they wanted to).

I could see the way you're describing it though. I'd probably go your route by swapping out Shadow Blade for Darkness and Devil's Sight, to still get reliable advantage.

[Ventruenox]

Whatever happened to the Revanant Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564921-Double-bladed-scimitar) and associated feat for a two handed Dex weapon from earlier this year?

[Misterwhisper]

Whatever happened to the Revanant Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564921-Double-bladed-scimitar) and associated feat for a two handed Dex weapon from earlier this year?

It almost immediately got banned at MANY tables for being broken as all get out.

[Man_Over_Game]

It almost immediately got banned at MANY tables for being broken as all get out.



Dual Wield feat
Revenant Blade feat


+1 AC
+1 AC


+2 damage
+2.5 damage



+1 to Dex or Str



Your weapon gains Finesse



Is a single weapon, both attacks benefit from 1 buff



It basically came out to be that the Revenant Blade build was worse if you weren't level 4 or didn't have the feat, in which case you were a Dex build and not using the weapon. If you DID have the feat, then you had +2 damage and +1 attribute more than any TWF player who spent both a fighting style and a feat.

[Misterwhisper]

Dual Wield feat
Revenant Blade feat


+1 AC
+1 AC


+2 damage
+2.5 damage



+1 to Dex or Str



Your weapon gains Finesse



Is a single weapon, both attacks benefit from 1 buff



It basically came out to be that the Revenant Blade build was worse if you weren't level 4 or didn't have the feat, in which case you were a Dex build and not using the weapon. If you DID have the feat, then you had +2 damage and +1 attribute more than any TWF player who spent both a fighting style and a feat.

The feat is not the horrendous part, it is the weapon itself.

It is a weapon, not unique, not magical, not even plot related. It is just a normal martial weapon for 100g that gives you all the effects of the TWF feat, without needing to actually use 2 weapons.

1 weapon to draw instead of 2
1 weapon to enchant instead of 2
2d4 damage main hand which is better than any dual wieldable weapon even with the Dual Wielder feat.
bonus attack for 1d4 + stat

Then the feat itself:

Lets you use dex with it, so same as if you finesse dual wield
gives you a point in your attack stat
Gives the same +1 ac
Makes your offhand 2d4 which is as I said better damage than any weapon you can dual wield even with Dual Wielder

All Dual Wielder gives you that RB doesn't is the ability to draw 2 weapons, which by using a double scimitar you will not need to do anyway.

The weapon itself is just a giant middle finger to anyone who wanted to two weapon fight, play a berserker, or even most other cases of getting a bonus attack from spending resources.

The feat is a nail in the coffin of TWF.

[Laserlight]

I was going to link a video of longsword fencing, but I see people have already managed to explain away why it's not quite good enough. The tradition of saying that if D&D doesn't support something, it's not worth supporting, is alive and well.

Well, if "finesse" is to be meaningful, it can't apply to every single weapon, and that means that at some point you're going to get "this dude used that weapon really fast and accurately, but it's still not Finesse".

[Man_Over_Game]

I was going to link a video of longsword fencing, but I see people have already managed to explain away why it's not quite good enough. The tradition of saying that if D&D doesn't support something, it's not worth supporting, is alive and well.


Well, if "finesse" is to be meaningful, it can't apply to every single weapon, and that means that at some point you're going to get "this dude used that weapon really fast and accurately, but it's still not Finesse".

That's a pretty valid point. Bladesingers get the Performance skill, are considered "dancing" with their weapons, but still have no requirement, bonuses, or any mention of Finesse weapons.

On the other hand, Rogues DO require Finesse, even when using the Barbarian's Reckless Attack feature.

This seems to imply that Finesse doesn't mean how agile or deft you are with the weapon, but rather whether or not its lethality can accomplished with precision alone, regardless of power.

[Damon_Tor]

D&D requires attacks to be dex OR str for simplicity, not for veracity.

In reality, an attack with any weapon requires both. To model reality better you'd use strength to determine how fast you swing the weapon (modified by the weapon's weight and center of gravity, which would come together to give you the impact force of the weapon) but dexterity to determine how accurate your strike is (ie, do you hit a chink in the armor, hit the armor itself, or miss entirely) and then figure out (using the impact force modified by the penetration value of the weapon) if you pierce the armor, how much damage is dealt to both the armor and the target.

So a very light weapon would require less strength (less weight, lower center of gravity) but would require more dexterity because it wouldn't be able to damage the other guy at all if it struck armor. So for simplicity, D&D just says "on these weapons, you can pick" and doesn't bother trying to make both stats relevant at the same time.

As to why no two-handed weapons have the finesse property, as yourself why those weapons require two hands: most of them are either very heavy, have a very high center of gravity, or both. This means the weapons in question are going to require them to be wielded by someone with the strength to swing/thrust the weapon at a reasonable speed.

[JackPhoenix]

Yeah, a lot of people confuse the weapon property "finesse" with the application of skill and talent; that's their proficiency bonus, not their dexterity modifier.

Just like a lot of people confuse weapon properties "heavy" and "light" with weight instead of size or suitability for dual-wielding, respectively.

[cesius]

If you're looking to avoid spellcasting here's an idea, but it only is cohesive if you start at level 8. Just to give an idea of what's in my head in terms of stat priority for this:

Str

Strength
12


Dexterity
15


Constitution
13


Intelligence
8


Wisdom
14


Charisma
10



I used the standard array from the PHB, dice rolls would probably result in better stats. The wisdom can sit at 14 (because it's basically to offset not wearing light armor) unless you score real well.

Three levels in Monk to grab Kensai and you don't pick up any of the really out-there class features. You use the Martial Arts unarmed strike for the +2 bonus to AC from Agile Parry rather than as a real source of damage. You've got the versatile longsword for that two-handed dexterity to hit and damage goodness. Three ki points is enough for the occasional use of Patient Defense (Force Precognition) and Step of the Wind (Force Speed part 2, part 1 is the +10 movement feet). The other five levels are in Fighter.

[SirThoreth]

Hmm, maybe refluffing the kensei is the way to go. I've no idea how i'll 'demystify' half of the monks abilities, but I'll have a think on it!

You know I did strongly think about the Warlock class right back when I was first imagining this character, however in the end I decided I just really don't want them being a spellcaster. I know a hexblade has a big focus on their weapon, which I do want! But they do also cast a lot of spells..

The more I think about it, the more I think refluffing a kensei might be the way to go.

You don't even necessarily need to refluff that much, or at all. "Ki" or "Qi" in real life is open to interpretation, and I've heard jujutsu, aiki-jujutsu and aikido describe "ki" in terms of biomechanics and physics, and one common example is the "unbendable body", which has been described using newtownian physics, and shown to be using your posture and body positioning to shift the axes of force that your opponent(s) need to apply to lift you, increasing the difficulty.

Ki can be useful for description and visualization of the technique, but when I personally did stuff like this in aikido class, I certainly wasn't blasting actual energy out of my arm across the room to make it impossible to bend: I used body mechanics, and let physics be physics. "Extending ki" was merely a way of putting me in the right frame of mind to do the technique properly.

If I could post links, I could recommend some specific sites, but a good starting point to get you started in looking at the physics and body mechanics that a monk/kensei would be to google "aikiphysics" or "unraisable body physics" or "martial arts ki physics", etc.

That, at least, should get you through the first few levels. From the looks of it, things don't get really crazy mystic with the monk/kensei until level 10.

[MeeposFire]

I didn't know what a Sunsword was, so I've just googled it. And...

Well, ok, that seems perfect. EXCEPT (I mean, typically.. :smallsigh: ) my character will 100% all be about gloom and dark and general negativity. If it was an 'UNsunsword' - now that would be actually perfect.

Again, I know, I suppose I could refluff... (and change damage type? and make it not a light source?). It just feels like I'd be taking liberties though, which I'm so adverse to doing when I'm so new to the game.

It's honestly ok though, I've had so much great information in this thread - I don't want to sound as if I'm neglecting what anybody is suggesting.

I forget are you playing an elf perhaps? If so talk to your DM about having a moon blade. One of the possible abilities it could have is to be a finesse weapon and it is a long sword. You may be able to convince the DM to have it get better as you get experience so it starts with essentially just that ability and gets other abilities as you level.

[LtPowers]

And yes I mean, the kensei is what I'm going for - but well, simply put, being a monk, they're also a lot more than I was going for (Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Empty Body, Stillness of Mind etc. etc.) - as a user above me posted, I could definitely just 'refluff' that stuff. Just to me it seems rather a lot to refluff, considering those aspects are so not what I had in mind.

But you only need three levels of Monk to get the use-this-weapon-with-DEX feature you wanted, and you get Unarmored Defense to boot. There's not much reason to go beyond level 3 in Monk if you don't want the Monk-like features. Just switch to Fighter or Barbarian after level 3. Or maybe Rogue, but (as noted earlier) you wouldn't be able to use Sneak Attack with your big weapon.

Or you could take up to level 5 in Monk, to make sure you get your ASI and Extra Attack on time. But there's definitely no reason you have to go so far as to get Diamond Soul and Timeless Body!


Powers &8^]

[Mikal]

It almost immediately got banned at MANY tables for being broken as all get out.

And just as many allow it so... the answer to what happened to it is nothing. It’s there, it’s fun, and it’s two handed.

But regardless, the answer to the OP is no for a simple reason- kensei weapons don’t become finesse. You can use dexterity with them, but finesse is a specific trait that allows abilities such as sneak attack. Kensei doesn’t do that.

One item that does which I don’t think has been mentioned is a moonblade with the finesse quality, which moonblades have a chance to acquire.

[chando]

A barbarian can do well with a Str 16 or even 14 due to advantage to str checks and attacks. Maxing Dex and Con fisrt lets you have a huge AC so enemies might miss even with advantage, and when they hit you have tons of HP and resistance. Any barbarian would do, cound even go Berserk for the bonus action attack, but I would choose Zealot or Ancestral Guardian.

[Keravath]

...
DnD Elves also generally have the lowest strength than any other character race PC's generally use.
...


I'm just curious where you get this impression.

DnD Elves receive a boost to dex rather than str which might make them a less optimal pick when making a str based class. However, there is absolutely no difference between elves and any other race without a str bonus. In addition, if using rolled stats, it may not matter at all so I really don't understand where you get the generalization of "generally have the lowest strength than any other character race PC's generally use".

Elves, Halflings, Gnomes, Tieflings ... four out of the nine players handbook races don't have the option of boosting strength. There are more if you include the races from volo's and elsewhere.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will say that 1 level in haxblade warlock will give you the ability to comple your enemies to be hit by your sword(Cha for attack and damage).

It is very jedy to my.

You can use it on a longsword but if you want it on Great Sword you will have to get to level 3 warlock ant take the blade pact.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm just curious where you get this impression.

DnD Elves receive a boost to dex rather than str which might make them a less optimal pick when making a str based class. However, there is absolutely no difference between elves and any other race without a str bonus. In addition, if using rolled stats, it may not matter at all so I really don't understand where you get the generalization of "generally have the lowest strength than any other character race PC's generally use".

Elves, Halflings, Gnomes, Tieflings ... four out of the nine players handbook races don't have the option of boosting strength. There are more if you include the races from volo's and elsewhere.

That comment isn’t in regards to the mechanical choices of picking an elf, but the practical. Most players who pick elves regardless of backstory do so because they want spells or they want stealth. With cantrips, your options are limited to an RP spell, an attack spell that doesn’t synergize with Extra Attack, which most STR builds get, or you get a ranged spell that scales with Intelligence.
I’d say there are more strength based gnomes, due to their saving throws.

If we assume the choices of players and the population of STR based elves from them, then it’s safe to say that Elves, as a whole, are a flimsy race.

[GreyBlack]

A possible but crude method is to simply wield a rapier with the duelling style and describe it as wielding the weapon in two hands. Using two-handed weapons with a degree of finesse has always been anathema to D&D, for some reason.

Perhaps off topic, but it has been anathema in most variants of D&D. Which is funny to me when you consider the number of weapons that rely more on one's manual dexterity for achieving a damaging strike than on one's brute strength. I'm looking at weapons like the estoc, the koncerz, and others. These are big weapons that try to get between the armor plates to deal their damage rather than punching a hole in the armor; when you need to be precise like that, why wouldn't it be a dexterity rather than strength weapon?

I get it, 5e is not simulationist and you're supposed to just fluff whatever weapons. It just bugs me that there's no representation for this type of weapon.

Sorry, off topic. Continue.

[Ganymede]

If we assume the choices of players and the population of STR based elves from them, then it’s safe to say that Elves, as a whole, are a flimsy race.

Why would we do this? The rules are a gamist conceit designed to allow friends to have pretend adventures in a fantasy world. They are not a socio-cultural model or simulation.