Proposed fix for Improved Critical

[MaxWilson]

From another thread: re-posting for visibility

I didn't participate in the 5E playtest, but my hypothesis is that crits originally doubled all damage, including static modifiers, and that the Champion Improved Critical text was written back then and not changed when they changed to the current crit rules. I think something similar is true for Otherworldly Leap, warlocks' at-will Jump invocation with a 9th level prerequisite, and the jumping rules (jumps having the same movement cost as walking). It would explain some things. We know there was a lot of rule churn right before 5E was published, and these abilities are so obviously weak under the current ruleset that it's hard to believe they weren't written under a slightly different ruleset.

In fact, that would be a decent fix to the Champion:

Improved Critical: you crit on a 19-20. Furthermore, when you inflict a critical hit, roll damage once and then double the total damage (including any bonuses from Strength/magic weapons/etc.), instead of just rolling twice the normal number of dice.

Needs some rewording, but would make Champions pretty okay. For a GWM fighter with a heavy reliance on static modifiers, it's approximately like +2 to attacks. For a 5th level Str 16 Fighter against an AC 15 target like a Mind Flayer:

Base Fighter w/ greatsword: 12.70 DPR (2 x 9+ for 2d6+3)
Base Fighter w/ GWM greatsword: 14.70 DPR (2 x 14+ for 2d6+13)
Current Champion w/ GWM greatsword: 15.40 DPR (2 x 14+ for 2d6+13, extra 2 x 0.05 * 2d6) (increase by 0.7)
Proposed Champion w/ GWM greatsword: 18.00 DPR (2 x 14+ for 2d6+13, extra 2 x (0.05 * 13 + 0.05 * 2d6+13)) (increase by 3.3)
Battlemaster w/ GWM greatsword: 19.95 DPR if Precise Strike on rolled 13-14 (2 x 14+ for 2d6+13, plus extra 2 * (0.05 + 7/8 * 0.05 + 3/4 * 0.05) * 2d6+13) (increase by 5.25, as long as dice last)

The gap between Champion and Battlemaster gets cut by 58% in this scenario, which I think is enough to make the Champion much more satisfying. More to the point, you now have an ability that feels like it does something pretty often, on about 20% of your combat rounds--and it even reduces hassle at the same time (roll once and double the total), which is totally a Champion-like thing.

Question for all: If you were playing at a table where the DM implemented this version of Improved Critical, would you have a negative reaction, positive reaction, or no reaction?

[Man_Over_Game]

Probably a mildly positive reaction. It at least now has something over the Hexblade or any dumbfire murderhobo GWM/PAM/Sentinel attack build.

But the appeal of the Champion as a whole is lost on me. It's more random chance than decision making, and I'm just one of those players that prefers Chess over Yahtzee. Now, if the Champion had a clause that said that when they critted, they also could tack on a Superiority Die+Maneuver (so the Champion would take advantage of certain scenarios, where the Battle Master would plan them), I could really sink my teeth into that.

But this is a small step in the right direction, for players who are into randomness in combat.

[MaxWilson]

Probably a mildly positive reaction. It at least now has something over the Hexblade or any dumbfire murderhobo GWM/PAM/Sentinel attack build.

But the appeal of the Champion as a whole is lost on me. It's more random chance than decision making, and I'm just one of those players that prefers Chess over Yahtzee. Now, if the Champion had a clause that said that when they critted, they also could tack on a Superiority Die+Maneuver (so the Champion would take advantage of certain scenarios, where the Battle Master would plan them), I could really sink my teeth into that.

But this is a small step in the right direction, for players who are into randomness in combat.

I get it, and I share your taste for Chess over Yahtzee, most of the time. But for certain characters there is an appeal to the "Grog smash!" mentality and I want there to be some reason why you'd pick Champion over Cavalier or Samurai for those scenarios. I want to wind up in a place where your decision tree basically looks like this:



Do you want magic spells and fiddly bits? Eldritch Knight.

Do you want cold-blooded analysis and exploitation of enemy weaknesses? Battlemaster. [requires some other house rules for regaining superiority by sacrificing attacks, out of scope for this thread]

Do you want to turn off your brain and just smash things? Champion.

Do you want to open every combat with a burst of aggression? Samurai.

Do you want to tank and keep others safe? Cavalier.

Do you want magic arrows but not fiddly bits? Arcane Archer. [increase shots to 3/short rest]


I think the current Champion needs to do a better job of rewarding the "just smash things" playstyle. In the past I've fiddled with Remarkable Athlete instead, but it comes online pretty late. I've experimented with increasing the crit range to 17-20 instead of 19-20, but that risks making crits feel routine and doesn't feel really idiomatic for 5E. I like this current proposal because in some ways it actually makes the Champion simpler than the base fighter (fewer dice to roll).

I would pair this with my Remarkable Athlete rule which makes Remarkable Athlete stack with proficiency.

[Laserlight]

Concur with MoG. The problem with crits is you get them when the dice want them, not when you need them.

I'd actually say "Roll as normal and then add your max damage" to avoid those times when you crit for a total of 6 damage from 2d12+STR. But that still wouldn't get me to Champion.

[Daphne]

Honestly, I think even a +1 to damage rolls would be better than improved critical. 5% extra critical chance is insignificant in the actual table.

[MaxWilson]

Concur with MoG. The problem with crits is you get them when the dice want them, not when you need them.

I'd actually say "Roll as normal and then add your max damage" to avoid those times when you crit for a total of 6 damage from 2d12+STR. But that still wouldn't get me to Champion.

Yeah, but you're not my target audience for Champion. You'd probably prefer a Battlemaster or EK.

Under the proposed rule, at least you'd get 8-10 damage out of your crit instead of only 6, because (d12+STR)*2.


Honestly, I think even a +1 to damage rolls would be better than improved critical. 5% extra critical chance is insignificant in the actual table.

Sure. But 5% extra critical chance and 10% chance of double static modifiers is 3-4 times as good as the PHB version of Improved Critical. What would your reaction be to a DM who implemented that?

[Man_Over_Game]

Hmmm....

What about a rechargeable crit? Rather than critting like normal, they can instead opt to save it for later, and decide to attack as normal now?

Still simple, but now that Champion can decide to use that saved crit he got on the BBEG who's fleeing the scene, throwing his hand axe at maximum range, getting an auto hit from the guaranteed crit and ending the fight?

If Champions had something like that, a single game-changing action who's sole purpose is to make badassery out of simplicity, I'd think that would be really friggin' cool. Flavor-wise, the Champion goes easy during easy fights so that things are still a challenge, and he ups his game when things start to get fun.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm....

What about a rechargeable crit? Rather than critting like normal, they can instead opt to save it for later, and decide to attack as normal now?

Still simple, but now that Champion can decide to use that saved crit he got on the BBEG who's fleeing the scene, throwing his hand axe at maximum range, getting an auto hit from the guaranteed crit and ending the fight?

If Champions had something like that, a single game-changing action who's sole purpose is to make ---- out of simplicity, I'd think that would be really ---- cool.

Definitely not the Champion flavor I'm aiming for. Too many fiddly bits. Someone who likes that experience is better off as a Battlemaster. I guess I'll post my tweaks for Battlemasters and Berserkers after all, just because:

For Battlemaster:

You can temporarily regain expended superiority dice, up to your normal maximum, by studying enemies for weaknesses. For every Attack you forgo during the Attack action, you regain one expended superiority die, which is usable only against creatures you can see at the time you regain the die. This temporary die expires after one minute if it has not already been used.

For Berserker:

When you end a Frenzy rage, if you pass a DC 15 Con save you do not suffer any exhaustion.

[Man_Over_Game]

Definitely not. Too many fiddly bits. Someone who likes that experience is better off as a Battlemaster.



I'm not sure why, though. It still follows the philosophy of simplicity. It's a single resource that cannot be stacked, and it works with the one mechanic that Champions are already betting on. It won't make them deal any more damage, just allows them to decide when they're relevant rather than waiting to be. It's literally the same thing (Crit attack) that they're already invested in, and no more difficult to track than the existing Inspiration mechanic.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure why, though. It still follows the philosophy of simplicity. It's a single resource that cannot be stacked, and it works with the one mechanic that Champions are already betting on. It won't make them deal any more damage, just allows them to decide when they're relevant rather than waiting to be. It's literally the same thing (Crit attack) that they're already invested in, and no more difficult to track than the existing Inspiration mechanic.

That's exactly the problem--it's adding resources, which means it's stateful and adds cognitive complexity. Now you have to track whether or not you have crits saved, and when you crit, you have to decide whether to spend it now or later.

It doesn't match the "Grog smash!" vibe that I think the Champion is aiming for. Your proposal is more of a Battlemaster vibe in my view, or rather what the Battlemaster should have been.

[Damon_Tor]

Hmmm....

What about a rechargeable crit? Rather than critting like normal, they can instead opt to save it for later, and decide to attack as normal now?

Still simple, but now that Champion can decide to use that saved crit he got on the BBEG who's fleeing the scene, throwing his hand axe at maximum range, getting an auto hit from the guaranteed crit and ending the fight?

If Champions had something like that, a single game-changing action who's sole purpose is to make badassery out of simplicity, I'd think that would be really friggin' cool. Flavor-wise, the Champion goes easy during easy fights so that things are still a challenge, and he ups his game when things start to get fun.

What would that feel like? What does it mean to that character when that happens? How does that work in his head? How does choosing to not hit-real-good on one guy help you to hit-real-good on some other guy? Is it some kind of... luck magic? For a character like the Diviner, there's an in-world explanation for what's going on, what the magic feels like, how those decisions happen. This feels wrong on a class and subclass that appears to be intended to be "the least magical, fewest decision points" sort of a guy.

[Damon_Tor]

Definitely not the Champion flavor I'm aiming for. Too many fiddly bits. Someone who likes that experience is better off as a Battlemaster. I guess I'll post my tweaks for Battlemasters and Berserkers after all, just because:

For Battlemaster:

You can temporarily regain expended superiority dice, up to your normal maximum, by studying enemies for weaknesses. For every Attack you forgo during the Attack action, you regain one expended superiority die, which is usable only against creatures you can see at the time you regain the die. This temporary die expires after one minute if it has not already been used.

For Berserker:

When you end a Frenzy rage, if you pass a DC 15 Con save you do not suffer any exhaustion.


*signs up for MaxWilson's newsletter

[Man_Over_Game]

That's exactly the problem--it's adding resources, which means it's stateful and adds cognitive complexity. Now you have to track whether or not you have crits saved, and when you crit, you have to decide whether to spend it now or later.

It doesn't match the "Grog smash!" vibe that I think the Champion is aiming for. Your proposal is more of a Battlemaster vibe in my view, or rather what the Battlemaster should have been.

You make some excellent points, just not sure how to improve the "dumbfire" method of Champions while still making them more consistently fun.

Proficiency on Improvised Weapons? Wielding 2 handed weapons with 1? Extra EXTRA XTA ATAKS? Reroll on 1's and 2's?

Increasing damage is...ok, but I don't think it really makes the Champion that much more fun.


What would that feel like? What does it mean to that character when that happens? How does that work in his head? How does choosing to not hit-real-good on one guy help you to hit-real-good on some other guy? Is it some kind of... luck magic? For a character like the Diviner, there's an in-world explanation for what's going on, what the magic feels like, how those decisions happen. This feels wrong on a class and subclass that appears to be intended to be "the least magical, fewest decision points" sort of a guy.

Great points, but do note that Halflings, Champions and Hexblades are already able to bend a little bit of luck to their will, despite 2/3 of those being nonmagical. Consider the fact that a Champion with minimal stats has twice the chance to hit a god as anyone else. I like to think that "dumb luck" really does exist in DnD. The Halfling can even spread that to their allies with a feat.

Context-wise, it's the Champion saving his energy and focus to use later in the battle. He's a hardened veteran, used to making his stamina last, and he's not going to burn himself out murdering goblins when he knows that there's an Ogre up ahead that he's gonna have to deal with. So he doesn't overexert himself against the smallfry, and finally goes all out against the Ogre, cleaves that sucker apart in record time.

[Man_Over_Game]

*signs up for MaxWilson's newsletter

Yeah, MaxWilson's homebrew stuff is pretty legit. We don't always agree on design decisions, but that doesn't mean he doesn't always have good points. PM him about it, I'm sure he'll send you the 45 page document he sent me a while back.

[MaxWilson]

You make some excellent points, just not sure how to improve the "dumbfire" method of Champions while still making them more consistently fun.

Proficiency on Improvised Weapons? Wielding 2 handed weapons with 1? Extra EXTRA XTA ATAKS? Reroll on 1's and 2's?

Increasing damage is...ok, but I don't think it really makes the Champion that much more fun.

The thing is, Champion already sounds like fun to certain people. "More damage, all the time? Sign me up!" The problem is that the actual impact on play doesn't match what these players were promised. If they did the math this would be obvious to them from the get-go, but you shouldn't need to do math to realize that the Champion is bad--you should just give them something actually good in the way they expected it to be good.

I think the Champion is intended to be the "no fiddly bits" offensive fighter, and while I'm kind of stuck with Action Surge and Second Wind as per-rest abilities, I can live with that. The Cavalier and the Samurai are both already pretty good "no fiddly bits" replacements for the Champion, but the Cavalier is more bodyguarding-focused and the Samurai is kind of bursty, and I want to fulfill the Champion's promise of smashing things pretty good all the time. Otherwise I might as well just remove the Champion from my games entirely--I don't want to offer players trap options that will leave them disillusioned once they've rolled enough dice.


Yeah, MaxWilson's homebrew stuff is pretty legit. We don't always agree on design decisions, but that doesn't mean he doesn't always have good points. PM him about it, I'm sure he'll send you the 45 page document he sent me a while back.

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate your posts too. For the record, I am 100% okay with people not agreeing with me. I enjoy thoughtful discussion regardless of whether or not our tastes diverge slightly. :)

If anyone wants to sign up to be an alpha tester for my newest online 5E hack-and-slash game, Shining Sword: Citadel of the Hundred Gates, send me a message here or to [email protected]. You'll get to play my version of the Champion and a few other classes like PDK, Battlerager, and Elemonk through a monster stomp, and you'll have a say in which other subclasses get prioritized for implementation. The game is almost in a playable state.

[djreynolds]

Feels like a good idea.

What if at 10th level, a champion now adds his strength and dexterity modifier to all damage... similar to life drinker.

This would promote pumping dex and strength, but since a champion crits with all weapons... seems appropriate.

Also it would make remarkable athlete stronger.

And not many players would dip 10 levels of fighter for this perk.

I'm not sure what to do about crossbow usage

[MaxWilson]

Feels like a good idea.

What if at 10th level, a champion now adds his strength and dexterity modifier to all damage... similar to life drinker.

This would promote pumping dex and strength, but since a champion crits with all weapons... seems appropriate.

It took me a minute to see what you're talking about here but I think I get it now. Whereas today a longbow-using Champion does d8+Dex, plus whatever other modifiers are relevant from magic/Sharpshooter/whatnot, you're proposing that the Champion would do d8+Str+Dex. Likewise, with a greatsword, instead of 2d6+Str, he'd do 2d6+Str+Dex.

It's an interesting idea. I don't want to go too far in the direction of making the other subclasses feel anemic compared to the Champion, so my instincts would put this one on the back burner until I have some time to think about whether it's needed, or maybe reserve it for 15th level. I like that it simplifies the Champion and gives players a reason to simplify further by not choosing feats. Very interesting suggestion, thanks for making it!

[Sindeloke]

If you just want more damage consistently over time, add proficiency to damage rolls. Scales about the same as the perfectly well balanced Brute, but with the improved flavor of "just that good" rather than "just that hyperthyroidal," which is more the barbarian's shtick. The MMO comparison is a good one - it'd outdamage the BM when both are played at an average level, but the BM has more utility and could optimize to win in certain situations so there's balance.

Your better crit suggestion is interesting but I agree with the prevailing sentiment that crits are too random to provide the feeling of excellence you want your players to be able to chase, and I'd also add that it lends itself to too much optimization. If the Champion is the pick-it-and-forget-it class we don't want to incentivize critfishing or picking half-orc or muticlassing for smite dice or whatever. We want a trait that functions identically regardless of player behavior, which a nice scaling static damage bonus does well.

[MaxWilson]

If you just want more damage consistently over time, add proficiency to damage rolls. Scales about the same as the perfectly well balanced Brute, but with the improved flavor of "just that good" rather than "just that hyperthyroidal," which is more the barbarian's shtick. The MMO comparison is a good one - it'd outdamage the BM when both are played at an average level, but the BM has more utility and could optimize to win in certain situations so there's balance.

Your better crit suggestion is interesting but I agree with the prevailing sentiment that crits are too random to provide the feeling of excellence you want your players to be able to chase, and I'd also add that it lends itself to too much optimization. If the Champion is the pick-it-and-forget-it class we don't want to incentivize critfishing or picking half-orc or muticlassing for smite dice or whatever. We want a trait that functions identically regardless of player behavior, which a nice scaling static damage bonus does well.

I like this suggestion too. There are players who like rolling dice and critting, so I'd probably want to crank some numbers and provide a Fighting Style-like option to choose between them, after making sure that both options are roughly equally valuable. Adding +proficiency to all attacks smells a teeny bit strong to me--5E is really stingy with damage bonuses--so my instincts say something more like "you can choose either Improved Critical (per above post) or Brute: you add half your proficiency bonus to all weapon attack damage rolls." I'd have to crank the numbers though.

[djreynolds]

It took me a minute to see what you're talking about here but I think I get it now. Whereas today a longbow-using Champion does d8+Dex, plus whatever other modifiers are relevant from magic/Sharpshooter/whatnot, you're proposing that the Champion would do d8+Str+Dex. Likewise, with a greatsword, instead of 2d6+Str, he'd do 2d6+Str+Dex.

It's an interesting idea. I don't want to go too far in the direction of making the other subclasses feel anemic compared to the Champion, so my instincts would put this one on the back burner until I have some time to think about whether it's needed, or maybe reserve it for 15th level. I like that it simplifies the Champion and gives players a reason to simplify further by not choosing feats. Very interesting suggestion, thanks for making it!

It feels like it would build upon remarkable athlete, to make the most out the given skill bonus.

You may never see 20 and 20 in both stats but it might make using that half proficiency in stealth and taking medium armor master.

And it's quite the ASI investment. As resilient something is usually a need.

Another idea, I proposed a while ago, when you score a critical hit, an ally near you gets a reaction attack. It might do better with the PDK, but makes a champion valuable ally.

But really doubling up on the ability modifier is nice. It's static damage.

You could also include something to do with the champion's short rest ability. At 10th level, while action surging, any critical hit results in maximum damage.

[Damon_Tor]

Feels like a good idea.

What if at 10th level, a champion now adds his strength and dexterity modifier to all damage... similar to life drinker.

This would promote pumping dex and strength, but since a champion crits with all weapons... seems appropriate.

Also it would make remarkable athlete stronger.

And not many players would dip 10 levels of fighter for this perk.

I'm not sure what to do about crossbow usage

That's almost exactly how the "Slayer" class from 4e essentials worked. I like it.

[Teioh]

I always liked the Brute ‘redo’ of ‘Grog Smash’ type char. A little sanding the rough UA edges off that and I’d be a happy camper.

Maybe go even more simple with add Proficiency to damage at 3, and a flat plus 3 to saves at 7.

I would like to work in an improved Remarkable Athlete as well, maybe instead of second combat style. Just add half proficiency to all str/dex/con checks and call it a day.

[Zalabim]

When it comes to giving the Champion better criticals, my first instinct was to refresh Second Wind on critical hits, which I'm sure is too powerful. And anyway, might as well skip the resource and just say "regain HP on critical hits" (1d10+level, of course), and finally, to avoid outright abuse, it ends up as "Regain HP on attack rolls of 19 or 20 (later 18, 19, or 20) against a hostile creature," since it's possible to force attacks to be critical hits with paralyzed or unconscious targets. Then the HP recovered just needs to be tuned to a level that feels good, but isn't overpowering.

[loki_ragnarock]

I've briefly wondered if it would make Superior Critical more interesting to have the Champion score a critical hit on a 1, 19, or 20.

You know, a warrior who has become so adept at kicking ass and chewing bubblegum that they have transcended the uncertainty that plagues all warriors; the threat of automatic failure.

Does it make it more interesting, or immaterially different? The frequency of crits would be about the same, but the mood of it seems different. "I may miss, but I don't fail," sort of vibe. And it would lead to a slightly higher range of positive outcomes; if a 17 doesn't hit on it's own, then maybe don't fight that? Would that skew the math in a wonky direction?


EDIT:
Oh, yeah. Halfling fighters would get screwed. Nevermind.


For Improved Critical:
I'm not sure that giving a straight buff to Improved Critical is the best way to go about it, simply because it lends itself too easily to multi-classing shenanigans. Maybe add the double stat bonus on crits as a rider to Remarkable Athlete; ensure the real fighters get it and the moonlighters don't, and give the Champion a slight buff in those dusty levels between extra attacks.

And, please, let the Champion roll the dice. The slowly creeping smile on the face of fresher players as they gather up the dice into their hand for their critical hit might not be mathematically important, but it's emotionally satisfying even vicariously. I understand that it has no impact on the numbers, but does that feeling of satisfaction ever really go away? And for the people drawn to the archetype, isn't chasing that sense of excitement part of the appeal?

[KorvinStarmast]

Question for all: If you were playing at a table where the DM implemented this version of Improved Critical, would you have a negative reaction, positive reaction, or no reaction? I'd support it. Love the idea.

If you just want more damage consistently over time, add proficiency to damage rolls. Scales about the same as the perfectly well balanced Brute, but with the improved flavor of "just that good" rather than "just that hyperthyroidal," which is more the barbarian's shtick. This too.

The other thing I'd like to see is that Fighters get + proficiency to armor class when not wearing armor. (I'd be tempted to ask for this with Ranger as well ...) Fits the fiction better ...

[MaxWilson]

The other thing I'd like to see is that Fighters get + proficiency to armor class when not wearing armor. (I'd be tempted to ask for this with Ranger as well ...) Fits the fiction better ...

My preference would be to just allow combatants to spend attacks on Parry maneuvers a la AD&D. Similar to DMG Disarm, Parry is a contest between your to-hit and your attacker's to-hit. If you win the contest, they automatically miss on that attack. Allocating parries to specific attacks would be a little bit awkward in the PHB initiative system (which tries to pretend like turns happen instantaneously) but it works well in the AD&D-flavored initiative system I actually use, which embraces concurrent actions.

The upshot would be that a 5th level fighter can demolish a single opponent, even unarmored, by using Parry and (Extra) Attack each turn, but that being unarmored and outnumbered still puts him in serious jeopardy. That fits the fiction quite well, better IMO than an AC boost. And it also means that Fighters are the best at Parrying because they have the most attacks.

[Misterwhisper]

The issue with more critical chance or even more critical damage is that you can't control when it happens.

There is no guarantee that it will happen when it even matters, if the enemy has 3 HP and you critical hit it, who cares how much damage you did?

Champion should have gotten some other kind of bonus besides critical chance, especially considering how weak critical damage became in 5e.

Brute is what champion should have been in the first place, just maybe a little too strong.

Constant damage boost to attacks, a boost to saves (this is the one what was too high in my opinion), then the rest was champion stuff anyway.

When I think champion I would expect it to get an accuracy boost or an AC boost more so than a crit boost.

[Bloodcloud]

I'd just add one free crit per long rest.

Simple, elegant, allows the ability to shine when it matters (and a bunch of other times randomly).

[djreynolds]

I'd just add one free crit per long rest.

Simple, elegant, allows the ability to shine when it matters (and a bunch of other times randomly).

This actually awesome. I had at 10th level, 1x a long rest one attack cannot miss and is always a crit,

[Coffee_Dragon]

This actually awesome. I had at 10th level, 1x a long rest one attack cannot miss and is always a crit,

Make it "turn a hit into a crit" and I'm sold. Crit at will is a bit too much of the rogue's capstone for a second-level ability. Since there will likely be hits, the ability will still be useful without edging into meta territory.

[CTurbo]

I like the Str+Dex idea like the 4e Slayer. It'd make a great level 10 feature. I've actually always thought the Champion should get all the common Fighting styles anyway. At least TWF, GWF, Dueling, Archery, and Defense. Probably not the UA stuff like Close Quarters Shooter and Tunnel Fighter, etc... Of course you can't give the Champion all 5 Styles at level 3 because of dip abuse so it'd have to be an every 3-4 levels you gain one thing or something.

As far as improving the Improved Critical, I always thought that instead of rolling an extra damage die, it should just get the maximum automatically. So critting with a Greataxe would be 1d12+12+Str instead of 2d12+Str.

Anyway, if anything REALLY needs to be fixed about the Champion, it's really not damage. What it really needs is more stuff to do outside of combat. I think it needs Ritual Casting. Maybe not all at once, but maybe one Ritual every other level or something.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I think it needs Ritual Casting.

Fighter should just have half-casting in the base chassis.

[djreynolds]

I like the Str+Dex idea like the 4e Slayer. It'd make a great level 10 feature. I've actually always thought the Champion should get all the common Fighting styles anyway. At least TWF, GWF, Dueling, Archery, and Defense. Probably not the UA stuff like Close Quarters Shooter and Tunnel Fighter, etc... Of course you can't give the Champion all 5 Styles at level 3 because of dip abuse so it'd have to be an every 3-4 levels you gain one thing or something.

As far as improving the Improved Critical, I always thought that instead of rolling an extra damage die, it should just get the maximum automatically. So critting with a Greataxe would be 1d12+12+Str instead of 2d12+Str.

Anyway, if anything REALLY needs to be fixed about the Champion, it's really not damage. What it really needs is more stuff to do outside of combat. I think it needs Ritual Casting. Maybe not all at once, but maybe one Ritual every other level or something.

It just fits, with improved crit and remarkable athlete, that you would pump 2 attack stats. It's not OP, it fits an archetype who trains everyday to be awesome with any weapon.

10th level, no one is poaching the archetype, and with standard array, it will take 4 ASI investment. Meaning you've might have passed on saves, or lucky, or GWM to get this... which is about online with bladesingers and warlocks adding multiple ability modifiers to damage

[MadBear]

I really like the simplicity of just doubling damage if you're a champion. For those players seeking simplicity (which I myself like once in awhile) it's a meaningful boost. It also pairs really well with whatever magical weapon the champion picks up.

Heck, I'd be tempted to use this in a game and pair it with a few levels of barbarian. Reckless attack + this would make for a fun character who really just lays waste to their surroundings.

[CTurbo]

I really like the simplicity of just doubling damage if you're a champion. For those players seeking simplicity (which I myself like once in awhile) it's a meaningful boost. It also pairs really well with whatever magical weapon the champion picks up.

Heck, I'd be tempted to use this in a game and pair it with a few levels of barbarian. Reckless attack + this would make for a fun character who really just lays waste to their surroundings.

How would double damage crits interact with GWM, the Half Orc's extra crit die, etc...?

[MadBear]

How would double damage crits interact with GWM, the Half Orc's extra crit die, etc...?

That's a good question. I'd be curious to hear what the OP's thoughts on this would be. If it all counted, they'd be pretty crazy good.

A level 11 fighter/Barbarian 2 with a +1 axe that deals 1d6 fire axe would be getting

3 attacks with advantage on each swing.

Each swing crit would deal 2d12 (axe)+ 20 (GWM) + 2d6 (fire) + 10 (strength) +2 (magic weapon)+ 4 (Barb rage)+2d12 (orc crit ability) = 66 damage with each crit on average.

Considering with advantage we have a roughly 18% chance of crit per swing and a 3 swings, you'll get to crit about every other round on average.

That's gonna feel pretty powerful and good (albeit not reliable).

[MaxWilson]

That's a good question. I'd be curious to hear what the OP's thoughts on this would be. If it all counted, they'd be pretty crazy good.

In the OP I think I gave an example with GWM: instead of doing 2d6+13 like a normal hit, you'd do 4d6+26 on a crit. Presumably half-orc dice would work like normal: you get an additional damage die, so 5d6+26. I don't think that's anywhere near crazy good considering the rarity of crits, but an extra 3d6+13 (23) damage 10% of the time is at least non-negligible, unlike today's Improved Critical.


A level 11 fighter/Barbarian 2 with a +1 axe that deals 1d6 fire axe would be getting

3 attacks with advantage on each swing.

Each swing crit would deal 2d12 (axe)+ 20 (GWM) + 2d6 (fire) + 10 (strength) +2 (magic weapon)+ 4 (Barb rage)+2d12 (orc crit ability) = 66 damage with each crit on average.

Considering with advantage we have a roughly 18% chance of crit per swing and a 3 swings, you'll get to crit about every other round on average.

That's gonna feel pretty powerful and good (albeit not reliable).

The orc crit would only be +d12, not +2d12, as I read the half-orc ability. (Though I guess if you're going for the "roll normal damage and double it" option, it would be equivalent to +2d12.) The rest of your math checks out AFAICT--the net effect is that you're getting a bonus ~27ish points of damage every other round, compared to a non-Champion, but your damage sometimes comes in big chunks, which may feel powerful and good to certain players. (Others like me won't really care how big the chunks are unless we're trying to break concentration.)

Feeling powerful and good when crits trigger is what I hypothesize the Champion is supposed to do for those who choose it, so IMO that is working as intended. It's definitely not overpowered compared to an Eldritch Knight/Battlemaster/Samurai, but it's not dramatically underpowered any more either, especially if you roll in fixes to Remarkable Athlete and potentially djreynold's suggestion about a 10th or 15th level ability tweak.

[KorvinStarmast]

My preference would be to just allow combatants to spend attacks on Parry maneuvers a la AD&D. Similar to DMG Disarm, Parry is a contest between your to-hit and your attacker's to-hit. If you win the contest, they automatically miss on that attack. Allocating parries to specific attacks would be a little bit awkward in the PHB initiative system (which tries to pretend like turns happen instantaneously) but it works well in the AD&D-flavored initiative system I actually use, which embraces concurrent actions.

The upshot would be that a 5th level fighter can demolish a single opponent, even unarmored, by using Parry and (Extra) Attack each turn, but that being unarmored and outnumbered still puts him in serious jeopardy. That fits the fiction quite well, better IMO than an AC boost. And it also means that Fighters are the best at Parrying because they have the most attacks. Useless for levels 1-4. Maybe Fighters need to have parry as a bonus action from level 1 going forward? Or level 2? (Rogue gets cunning action at 2 ..)

[MaxWilson]

Useless for levels 1-4. Maybe Fighters need to have parry as a bonus action from level 1 going forward? Or level 2? (Rogue gets cunning action at 2 ..)

Not useless for levels 1-4. Comparable to Dodge: situationally useful, e.g. if you are low on HP against a giant. Will tend to be superior to Dodge against any single attack at low levels when unarmored, but Dodge is better against mobs and Multiattack and usually better when you're already heavily armored (which makes sense).

Staying alive is pretty important especially at low levels. Now at level 2, once per short rest instead of attacking + Action Surging Dodge, you can attack + Action Surge Parry (or Action Surge Disarm, which is often better).

Anyway, since we were discussing the fiction, the type of trained fighter who can demolish others unarmored is better-represented by a mid-level fighter of levels 5+ than by a low-level fighter of level 1-4, therefore I see no need to grant fighters a special AC for unarmored defense.

[MadBear]

In the OP I think I gave an example with GWM: instead of doing 2d6+13 like a normal hit, you'd do 4d6+26 on a crit. Presumably half-orc dice would work like normal: you get an additional damage die, so 5d6+26. I don't think that's anywhere near crazy good considering the rarity of crits, but an extra 3d6+13 (23) damage 10% of the time is at least non-negligible, unlike today's Improved Critical.



The orc crit would only be +d12, not +2d12, as I read the half-orc ability. (Though I guess if you're going for the "roll normal damage and double it" option, it would be equivalent to +2d12.) The rest of your math checks out AFAICT--the net effect is that you're getting a bonus ~27ish points of damage every other round, compared to a non-Champion, but your damage sometimes comes in big chunks, which may feel powerful and good to certain players. (Others like me won't really care how big the chunks are unless we're trying to break concentration.)

Feeling powerful and good when crits trigger is what I hypothesize the Champion is supposed to do for those who choose it, so IMO that is working as intended. It's definitely not overpowered compared to an Eldritch Knight/Battlemaster/Samurai, but it's not dramatically underpowered any more either, especially if you roll in fixes to Remarkable Athlete and potentially djreynold's suggestion about a 10th or 15th level ability tweak.

To be clear, when I say "crazy good" I mean it's a worthwhile option, not it's OP. Adding roughly 27 points every other round means the champion fighter essentially gets 13 points of damage every round. That's better then a battlemaster can do over an adventuring day.

The difference is that a battlemaster can control when/how to use their abilities, so it's likely to be more effective and rewarding. Meanwhile the champ is doing higher overall damage without stressing out about how to deal said damage. It just kinda happens.

[MaxWilson]

To be clear, when I say "crazy good" I mean it's a worthwhile option, not it's OP. Adding roughly 27 points every other round means the champion fighter essentially gets 13 points of damage every round. That's better then a battlemaster can do over an adventuring day.

The difference is that a battlemaster can control when/how to use their abilities, so it's likely to be more effective and rewarding. Meanwhile the champ is doing higher overall damage without stressing out about how to deal said damage. It just kinda happens.

Oh, okay, then I agree. :)

Battlemaster will still be better in short bursts, as will the Samurai, but the Champion will (combined with other fixes to higher-level abilities) have nothing to complain about. (This version of) Improved Critical is basically +2 to hit, all day every day, rising to effective +3 at 15th level, or even higher if you've got advantage.

[Man_Over_Game]

I've been mulling over it for a while. I mentioned it a while back, and I didn't think about it much at the time, but it keeps coming back to me.

What if in addition to the original crit range increase, rolling a 1 or a 2 on any Dexterity, Constitution, or Strength attack roll, saving throw, or attribute check allows you to reroll the die. When the crit range improves, so does this range.

Just makes you overall very consistently good, unstoppable to deal with, and even better at skills. The rerolls would inadvertently assist in rolling more crits.

[MaxWilson]

I've been mulling over it for a while. I mentioned it a while back, and I didn't think about it much at the time, but it keeps coming back to me.

What if in addition to the original crit range increase, rolling a 1 or a 2 on any Dexterity, Constitution, or Strength attack roll, saving throw, or attribute check allows you to reroll the die. When the crit range improves, so does this range.

That's a bridge too far for my taste. A bit too strong AND too fiddly, and too different from the existing Champion. I'm aiming for elegance in parsimony.

YMMV.

[Jama7301]

Sorry, I kinda jumped the gun on this reply and may have missed something, but when MaxWilson said that he was trying to work within the resources Champion already had, and mentioned Action Surge, it sparked something in my head.

Just make Action Surge more like 4e, and give it a rider that bolsters damage.

When you use your Action Surge, your next attack within the end of your next turn that would hit an enemy, instead deals a critical hit.

You don't lose it if you miss with your next attack, it gives you some control over when it triggers, and it keys off an ability that already exists. Could be fluffed that the extra burst of energy they're receiving from Action Surge is either empowering them or allowing them to get into a better position to deal a lethal strike.

[Son of A Lich!]

Honestly, if you are going to have a subclass that lives or dies on the critical hit, I would make guaranteed critical hits a short rest resource.

A Champion fighter doesn't have a wide breath of options at it's disposal in the long term, right? What weapon am I using and how do I close or extend the distance between me and the baddie. Pepper in the placement for AOs and boom, your golden. Unlike a wizard or cleric, they aren't going to optimize a spell list for the encounters they're expecting for the day. If they have a +3 Great axe and a +1 dagger and +2 longsword, and GWM, The Great Axe is the clear option for them to use. Even if the Dagger was a legendary homebrew +4, his Great Axe is still the best option for him.

With a /short rest auto crit, he always has at least some kind of a choice in the combat round that keeps the game from being "Run up and hit this guy". It would improve his DPR overall, but would allow more interesting design space about what happens when you crit, knowing that a Crit will happen much more frequently then 2 (Or 3 times!) every 20 swings.

That's my two cents at least.

[MaxWilson]

If they have a +3 Great axe and a +1 dagger and +2 longsword, and GWM, The Great Axe is the clear option for them to use. Even if the Dagger was a legendary homebrew +4, his Great Axe is still the best option for him.

Well, that depends. Not against dragons (you'll want a longbow or at least a one handed weapon that lets you climb annoyed the dragon) and definitely not against black puddings. :)

Also, sometimes a net would be superior to any of the above. It depends.



A Champion fighter doesn't have a wide breath of options at it's disposal in the long term, right? What weapon am I using and how do I close or extend the distance between me and the baddie. Pepper in the placement for AOs and boom, your golden.



With a /short rest auto crit, he always has at least some kind of a choice in the combat round that keeps the game from being "Run up and hit this guy".

A champion has options, but aside from Second Wind/Action Surge (which I wish weren't there) they are all in-character options like "should I grab this guy?" "should I blow my horn of Valhalla?" "should I demand single combat between champions?" "given the new reinforcements that just showed up, should we surrender or flee or fight on?" Etc. I see a lot of people asking for more "resources" to manage at the metagame level (players sitting around a table keeping track of how many auto crits they have left before a short rest) but the design intent I perceive for the Champion is the exact opposite: this class is attempting to provide an old school 2e fighter vibe which keeps you in character in almost all your decision making. If you want more metagame resources to manage, you play a Samurai or Battlemaster. You don't rewrite the Champion into the same design space as the Battlemaster, that's a net loss.