Heretic of the Faith

[SLOTHRPG95]

Would it be broken if the Heretic of the Faith feat (from PoF) let you cast spells opposed to your deity's alignment? The example I have in mind is a LG Cleric of Asmodeus who believes that the fall was a ruse, and that his patron is still indeed LG. The idea (at least in the heretic's mind) is that the other LG deities didn't want to seem cruel for enacting the Pact Primeval, so they faked the "fall" of one of their most powerful servants, Asmodeus, to serve as a boogeyman. The problem that I'm having is that it's demonstrably false. If he were LG or even LN, the Cleric could cast Good-aligned spells. But since the feat doesn't change the default rules on the matter, Asmodeus still does not grant Good-aligned spells. Thoughts? Unforeseen consequences?

[Florian]

More or less showcases why that particular feat and the idea behind it is dumb. At that point, you can actually go full Planescap mode and proclaim beliefe itself to be the source of power.....

[Maat Mons]

The gods could have set things up such that clerics of Asmodeus cast spells as if he their patron were evil, even though he's not. All part of the ruse.

Seriously, look at some conspiracy theory websites. Being demonstrably false does not convince some people.

[Goaty14]

Seriously, look at some conspiracy theory websites. Being demonstrably false does not convince some people.

Oh boy, did somebody say it's time to derail the thread? Well, for starters, I dis- :eek:

[SLOTHRPG95]

The gods could have set things up such that clerics of Asmodeus cast spells as if he their patron were evil, even though he's not. All part of the ruse.

Seriously, look at some conspiracy theory websites. Being demonstrably false does not convince some people.

The problem here is that I have a specific goal in mind, namely eventually going Malconvoker as the Cleric goes even further down the crazy rabbit hole and thinks that he's tricking devils into believing his heresy and working with him to combat demons. But pretty much all the low-level summons are either Good or Evil, and as a vanilla LG Cleric with an LE patron, you can't cast [Good] or [Evil] spells, meaning you can't summon anything from core 'til you get your first level of Malconvoker. The only exception is at 5th level (right before entering the PrC), you can summon a Small Elemental via Summon Monster III. That's (a) not a lot of selection, and (b) still levels 1-4 where the central shtick of summoning is totally offline.

[SangoProduction]

I mean, divine magic is powered by faith much more so than the gods themselves, except in certain settings. So even though you proclaim belief in Azmo-whatever, your core tenets of faith aren't neccesarily in line with the normal ones. Much like some in real life...but that topic is not allowed here.
So long as your character fully believes his own version of his faith, then I don't see what the problem is.

Heck. Screw the middleman. Start your own cult, which worships the lawful good version of them, and make that lawful good god your patron. Or argue that this Azmo is an ideal of yours. Boom spells as you want. No feats required.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I mean, divine magic is powered by faith much more so than the gods themselves, except in certain settings. So even though you proclaim belief in Azmo-whatever, your core tenets of faith aren't neccesarily in line with the normal ones. Much like some in real life...but that topic is not allowed here.
So long as your character fully believes his own version of his faith, then I don't see what the problem is.

Heck. Screw the middleman. Start your own cult, which worships the lawful good version of them, and make that lawful good god your patron. Or argue that this Azmo is an ideal of yours. Boom spells as you want. No feats required.

That'd work in many/most settings, but Forgotten Realms isn't most settings. Pretty much all divine casters, even nature-based half-casters like Rangers, have to get their divine power from a patron deity. Furthermore, divinity is tightly controlled by Ao, so you can't just start your own cult and poof! new god comes into existence. It's a setting-specific feat for a reason.

[Doctor Awkward]

That'd work in many/most settings, but Forgotten Realms isn't most settings. Pretty much all divine casters, even nature-based half-casters like Rangers, have to get their divine power from a patron deity. Furthermore, divinity is tightly controlled by Ao, so you can't just start your own cult and poof! new god comes into existence. It's a setting-specific feat for a reason.

It's also explicitly stated in several places that a deity's scope and portfolio is determined as much by their worshipers than it is their own desires.

For example, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting on page 232, it says, "The deities of Toril take an active interest in their world... ...In this they resemble their mortal worshipers, for to an extent deities are defined and shaped by their worshipers, their areas of interest, and their nature-- for many deities are actually mortals who have gained the divine spark."

Additionally in the Power of Faerun on page 45 it discusses the role a spiritual leader plays in the evolution of the faith, outright declaring that it's a myth that gods are unchanging and ever inviolate. And in the next column it says, "However, just as mortals are slaves to the divine, bound to obey the teachings of the gods if they wish to remain within the faith, gods are slaves to their followers, bound to represent the consensus that emerges among the followers of a faith."

It then offers a brief example of how Lathander might respond to a heresy appearing within his church and why he might allow such a belief to persist.

Essentially it's a case of, "Your mind makes it real." If you believe your deity can do a certain thing, and for whatever reason the deity decides it wants to do that thing, then it does that thing.

[SLOTHRPG95]

It's also explicitly stated in several places that a deity's scope and portfolio is determined as much by their worshipers than it is their own desires.

For example, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting on page 232, it says, "The deities of Toril take an active interest in their world... ...In this they resemble their mortal worshipers, for to an extent deities are defined and shaped by their worshipers, their areas of interest, and their nature-- for many deities are actually mortals who have gained the divine spark."

Additionally in the Power of Faerun on page 45 it discusses the role a spiritual leader plays in the evolution of the faith, outright declaring that it's a myth that gods are unchanging and ever inviolate. And in the next column it says, "However, just as mortals are slaves to the divine, bound to obey the teachings of the gods if they wish to remain within the faith, gods are slaves to their followers, bound to represent the consensus that emerges among the followers of a faith."

It then offers a brief example of how Lathander might respond to a heresy appearing within his church and why he might allow such a belief to persist.

Essentially it's a case of, "Your mind makes it real." If you believe your deity can do a certain thing, and for whatever reason the deity decides it wants to do that thing, then it does that thing.

Okay, so I see this as why the feat exists at all. You believe in a heresy, and for the above-stated reasons, you still gain powers, and indeed gain domain powers not usually granted by your deity. That still doesn't get around the restriction on casting spells opposed to your patron's alignment, at least according to RAW. Sure, eventually you might get enough people behind your heresy to (I think you're suggesting) actually shift the deity's alignment. But in the meantime, if you want to conjure forth a Celestial badger via Summon Monster I while your deity is Evil, you're SOL. As an extreme example, if you're a NE heretic of Lathander who has chosen the Evil domain via your heresy, you can cast none of its granted spells, as they're all tagged [Evil]. For that matter, the granted power is also useless. But it's a legal pick for a domain. The game doesn't protect you from terrible decisions, although your DM might (by declaring your heresy an invalid pick).

[SangoProduction]

That'd work in many/most settings, but Forgotten Realms isn't most settings. Pretty much all divine casters, even nature-based half-casters like Rangers, have to get their divine power from a patron deity. Furthermore, divinity is tightly controlled by Ao, so you can't just start your own cult and poof! new god comes into existence. It's a setting-specific feat for a reason.

Thought you were asking for feedback on if it's broken and if there are any unforseen consequences. My bad.

[Florian]

This exemplifies why I called the feat and the concept behind the feat to be dumb a bit earlier.

The FR concept of divinity is more or less depicted as a give and take: Even after attaining a divine spark, a god more or less is just a person and there is a direct relation to both, divine power as granted by the number of believers and power given back in the form of domains and granted spells, reflecting what people believe in the person.

Now contrast that to the Golarion approach, which I've grown more used to and is now my standard reference model. True divinities don't care. They just are. All deities can practically provide any spell, power or domain, depending on their whim and how they see and favor their individual religions and cults. The NG sun goddess Sarenrae allows a rather militant cult believing in her, as she believes in choice (making the joke about Pelor, The Burning Hatred, true in this setting). Other gods allow themselves to be understood as part of a Pantheon, making it possible for a Paladin of the Godclaw to have Asmodeus as a patron and still be LG. The third type of gods doesn't have unified cults at all and prefers to handle with followers of aspects of it. here, the example would be Norgorber, who prefers to be and stay unknown, but provides divine power to three separate cults, which are focused each on the aspect of murder, secrecy and politics. The other example would be Nyarlatothep, who allows himself to be worshipped and understood as two separate entities, Night Hunter and Black Pharaoh, with entirely different favored weapons and granted domains.

Understanding the fundamental difference is important here.

[Doctor Awkward]

The other example would be Nyarlatothep, who allows himself to be worshipped and understood as two separate entities, Night Hunter and Black Pharaoh, with entirely different favored weapons and granted domains.

This is, word for word, a function of the Heretic of the Faith feat, and explicitly permitted within the salient divine functioning of deities within the Forgotten Realms. So I really don't understand the distinction in your view.