Running Tome of Magic as counter to players

[Mordaedil]

I'm going to be running a campaign of all wizards and decided as a cool concept would be to have a few factions that run counter to them play as various themes based around the classes from Tome Of Magic, a book well known for being horribly playtested and horribly balanced. Just reading it through I noticed some extreme problems that leapt right at my face, and while I could DM fiat my way around them, I still want to give it some shots and I think I need some pointers on a few things.

For Binders, I think I got it mostly resolved. I have a faction training commoners in secret to become binders, training them to go into the various forests and make deals for great secret power and even damn their souls in the process or release beings more dangerous than they first appear into the wild. I can set the theme as a very Call of Cthulhu style mystery where they must find the guilty one, whereupon he reveals his secret and unleashes his binding. Stuff like that.

For Shadowcasters, I am kind of stuck in that their mysteries, while interesting on paper and useful for a party, can't really do much on their own. I think indeed very little they could do to challenge players who play all mages. Any ideas for how to make an association of pure shadowcasters interesting or at least threatening?

Finally for truenamers, I don't think there is much hope for the class itself. I think I am resigned to using some of the prestige classes from this and possibly have a few doom-shouters yell at the players before running away. Ideas for making truenaming from a DM spot interesting are welcome.

I could just abandon the entire idea or just take concepts or fixes. I am not looking to play as these things, just ideas for how to make use of them without resorting to "he just does".

Thanks in advance.

[Ramza00]

The 2nd and 3rd part of the book do not exist. It is quite obvious by execution that ToM with the 2nd and 3rd part was not playtested, or if it was playtested it was only playtested once.

Binders are acceptable though.

[Troacctid]

Truenamers actually work just fine as NPCs because you can simply make them higher-level than the players. Then they have a good success rate on their utterances.

[Goaty14]

Finally for truenamers, I don't think there is much hope for the class itself. I think I am resigned to using some of the prestige classes from this and possibly have a few doom-shouters yell at the players before running away. Ideas for making truenaming from a DM spot interesting are welcome.

Yay truenamers, thanks to them, my latent ice cream addiction was cured! :smalltongue:

Ok, ideas:
1) Truenamers are very good at gathering information -- perhaps them managing libraries or becoming a "guild of sages".
2) DM-ruled that most Truenamers go to the Paragnostic Assembly. Magnify any of the effects on the list (
3) Implore. Calls creatures if you know their Truename like GPB, but up to 24 HD. Demon Lords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9748704&postcount=12) or even Elder Evils (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258840-Binding-Elder-Evils-A-miniguide) can be bound as such.
4) Reversed Spell Rebirth. A 10th level truenamer can consistently dispel any spell that "affects" him (depending on DM interpretation). <Insert Anti-Magic Cult here>
5) DM houserules make truenames more feared? I'd gauge that adding a truespeak component and knowledge of the target's truename in exchange for "Saving Throw: None" would be sufficient enough to provoke paranoia about personal truenames, and maybe even allow the Ritual of Renaming see play.
...
I mean, outsiders really hate their Truename being in the Book of Truenames. Why that's the case when it only implies a +2 DC to spells affecting you at best boggles my mind.

[gkathellar]

Binding is great. Make sure to look into the web supplements for it, as there are a couple of cool Vestiges there. One of them grants unlimited summons and so is pretty broken for player use, but as a DM it pretty much gives you an excuse to pull the good kind of shenanigans.

Shadowcasting is ... honestly it’s not just that it’s badly written, but also that it’s pretty much just a weak specialist wizard. The whole thing has great presentation but when you get into the details you notice that it’s boring. I’d recommend pretending it never happened and that the whole chapter is devoted to Totemists, i.e. the Best Designed Class In 3.5, or maybe fixed-list casters in general.

Kellus wrote a pretty superb truenaming fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?90961-The-Way-Words-Work-(or-Truenaming-that-doesn-t-make-me-cry-myself-to-sleep-at-night)) a while back. Use that instead.

[jedipilot24]

The best fix for Shadowcasters IMHO is the Recharge Magic rules from Unearthed Arcana.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?74519-Descent-of-Shadows-Project-Shadow-Returns/page6

[Mike Miller]

You have an interesting idea. However, I think you would do better sticking to Binders and ignoring the rest of ToM. Perhaps use other casting classes as opposing factions. You could do the obvious ones like clerics, druids, and sorcerer's. You could go with other splats and do warmages, dread necromancers, wu jens, etc.

Or even go with prestige classes like group's of Mage of the Arcane Order, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Alienist, Ultimate Mague, Blood Magus, to just name a few. There are lots of PrCs that work better as NPCs than PCs like Greenstar Adept you could use, too.

I have a bias towards arcane (which may have come through already) but there are plenty divine PrCs to form group's around too.

[Efrate]

There was a shadowcaster fix posted by the dev somewhere. Use that, with hexblades as a frontline. Apply the hexblade fix as well from the dev. Other options include Incarnum/akashic (pathfinder) as alternate magic like stuff. Akashic is better but incarnum is fine barring soulborn. You can create inter organizational struggles too, imcarnum and akashic use souls, binding trades a bit of yours so there could well be friction there.

Of course, there is always psionics as well, especially if you use psionics are different.

[Mordaedil]

Truenamers actually work just fine as NPCs because you can simply make them higher-level than the players. Then they have a good success rate on their utterances.
Interesting. Sounds like I might get away with having a leader type NPC at 10th level, captains at 8th and ordinary members at 5th and it'll work fine until they become obscure an entity for the players.


Binding is great. Make sure to look into the web supplements for it, as there are a couple of cool Vestiges there. One of them grants unlimited summons and so is pretty broken for player use, but as a DM it pretty much gives you an excuse to pull the good kind of shenanigans.
For smooth play, I might limit myself to what the book prints for actual encounters, but I'll see what they can offer as part of the mystery surrounding the binders.


Shadowcasting is ... honestly it’s not just that it’s badly written, but also that it’s pretty much just a weak specialist wizard. The whole thing has great presentation but when you get into the details you notice that it’s boring. I’d recommend pretending it never happened and that the whole chapter is devoted to Totemists, i.e. the Best Designed Class In 3.5, or maybe fixed-list casters in general.
I'll be honest, I just wanted to throw Afraid of the Dark at the players mostly due to the illustration of Gimble.


Kellus wrote a pretty superb truenaming fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?90961-The-Way-Words-Work-(or-Truenaming-that-doesn-t-make-me-cry-myself-to-sleep-at-night)) a while back. Use that instead.
Yes, definitely using this.


The best fix for Shadowcasters IMHO is the Recharge Magic rules from Unearthed Arcana.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?74519-Descent-of-Shadows-Project-Shadow-Returns/page6
This is also a good fix.


You have an interesting idea. However, I think you would do better sticking to Binders and ignoring the rest of ToM. Perhaps use other casting classes as opposing factions. You could do the obvious ones like clerics, druids, and sorcerer's. You could go with other splats and do warmages, dread necromancers, wu jens, etc.

Or even go with prestige classes like group's of Mage of the Arcane Order, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Alienist, Ultimate Mague, Blood Magus, to just name a few. There are lots of PrCs that work better as NPCs than PCs like Greenstar Adept you could use, too.

I have a bias towards arcane (which may have come through already) but there are plenty divine PrCs to form group's around too.
Only reason I am looking at using them in the first place is because they are kind of alien and underutilized in the first place. Most players at my table don't seem to even know the book exists. The others, while great alternatives, are ultimately things my players are already intimately familiar with and are options already open to them, should they qualify. I thought introducing these three factions as villains just introduces a bit of the same kind of theme as one has when first encountering psionics. And I did consider that and Incarnum, but alas, those are kind of problematic in their own way.

That said, this being a mainly wizard campaign, I put a ban on the players multiclassing into other base classes and most normal town guards are duskblades instead of warriors to compliment the flavor.

[Troacctid]

Interesting. Sounds like I might get away with having a leader type NPC at 10th level, captains at 8th and ordinary members at 5th and it'll work fine until they become obscure an entity for the players.
Yeah, one thing that doesn't get talked about a lot with truenamers is that they're actually pretty darn effective against enemies who are lower level. Not only can they pass the DCs against you easily, they can also reliably use meta-utterance feats, quickening an utterance every turn and so on. Furthermore, when you're working off of CR rather than ECL, you can inflate your skill rank cap even higher with racial hit dice and nonassociated classes. That's not even considering stuff like the Prodigy template from DMG2, which can pump up the boss's check without increasing CR at all. And those damage-over-time abilities? Unlike NPCs, who functionally do not exist after the fight, PCs are going to have to reckon with the entire duration even if they win before it runs out.

TL;DR Truenamer on NPCs is a whole different ball game.

Shadowcaster actually has a similar thing going, too! Since they're only there for a single fight, their dearth of daily resources isn't as big a deal, and having a use limit per-mystery means they have to change up their tactics round-by-round for a more tactically interesting battle, which is something you actively want in a bad guy.

Binders are pretty meh, though.

[liquidformat]

I actually think Truenamer is very flavorful and would make for a cool bad guy, the interesting thing about truenaming is because of rituals, libraries and such you can get to some pretty wacky skill bonuses to help out in meeting your DCs. You could run the Truenamers as a cult and pretty much have them start causing havoc from level one.

Check out Ezekiel, the Celebrant from the 'Villainous Competition X: Henchman are Villains too' he is a straight 20 truenamer giving strategies all the way through the levels.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478068-Villainous-Competition-X-Henchman-are-Villains-too/page4

[Mordaedil]

Only problem I have with Shadowcasters at the moment is that I don't see how they survive their first 3 levels in the way a wizard can. None of their abilities seem capable of single-handedly putting another opponent down, just inconvenience them for a party of martials to clean up. So then I can't really run an organisation of just shadowcasters, I'd have to have thematic side-kicks that act as support or have them show up late. Not that it is the worst, but trying to imagine how these nerds became a threat to anyone is strange.

[Troacctid]

Only problem I have with Shadowcasters at the moment is that I don't see how they survive their first 3 levels in the way a wizard can. None of their abilities seem capable of single-handedly putting another opponent down, just inconvenience them for a party of martials to clean up. So then I can't really run an organisation of just shadowcasters, I'd have to have thematic side-kicks that act as support or have them show up late. Not that it is the worst, but trying to imagine how these nerds became a threat to anyone is strange.
Creeping darkness (page 115). They start as wizards. Then they're initiated into the next level and learn the truth of the organization in a ritual initiation on the Plane of Shadow. Those who accept it become shadowcasters, and can wear the black hoods and robes of the higher rank; their wizard levels are replaced by the creeping darkness as they level up. Those who decline are never seen again.

[Crake]

Honestly, binding is coolest when you make your own vestiges. How long have you and your players been playing in this setting? Are there any notable big bads that they have defeated in the past who might make cool vestiges?

[gkathellar]

Creeping darkness (page 115). They start as wizards. Then they're initiated into the next level and learn the truth of the organization in a ritual initiation on the Plane of Shadow. Those who accept it become shadowcasters, and can wear the black hoods and robes of the higher rank; their wizard levels are replaced by the creeping darkness as they level up. Those who decline are never seen again.

Clever.


Honestly, binding is coolest when you make your own vestiges. How long have you and your players been playing in this setting? Are there any notable big bads that they have defeated in the past who might make cool vestiges?

This is true. Binding more than the other subsystems is very amenable to, "I made up some nonsense specifically to challenge you." At the very least, you may want to rewrite some existing vestiges to have "NPC versions," as it were, since many vestiges are very player-oriented, with their 1/5 round abilities balancing them around the action economy rather than resource expenditure.

[Cosi]

One thing I'm confused about is the thread title. None of this really seems like it's "countering" anything, it's just having enemies that happen to use Tome of Magic abilities. I've got nothing against that, and this thread has good suggestions for doing that, but I feel like there may be something people have missed.


Furthermore, when you're working off of CR rather than ECL, you can inflate your skill rank cap even higher with racial hit dice and nonassociated classes.

Don't do that, that's just asking for trouble. If the DCs are too high, make the DCs lower. Don't do things that have the potential to break the CR system if you miscalculate.


And those damage-over-time abilities? Unlike NPCs, who functionally do not exist after the fight, PCs are going to have to reckon with the entire duration even if they win before it runs out.

That's true, but it has the potential to lead to feel-bad moments. Taking a bunch of unavoidable DoT damage after insta-gibbing the Truenamer can make the PCs tactical choices feel irrelevant. It's not as bad with Truenamers, because their DoT is like one round, but it's part of what makes getting hit with power word pain so stupidly deadly as a low level PC.


Only problem I have with Shadowcasters at the moment is that I don't see how they survive their first 3 levels in the way a wizard can. None of their abilities seem capable of single-handedly putting another opponent down, just inconvenience them for a party of martials to clean up. So then I can't really run an organisation of just shadowcasters, I'd have to have thematic side-kicks that act as support or have them show up late. Not that it is the worst, but trying to imagine how these nerds became a threat to anyone is strange.

D&D has a goddamn enormous amount of shadow magic. Shadowcasters, Shadowcraft Adepts, Swordsages specializing in Shadow Hand, Shadowdancers, Dragonmark Heirs of the Mark of Shadow (easily re-fluffed as being a tattoo rather than a bloodline), that Shadow/Fear PrC from Complete Mage, and probably even more stuff I'm forgetting. It's not hard to postulate an organization that simply trains anyone who happens to have some shadow-y talents for whatever reason. Could draw from the Noi Guin in Red Sister.

[Troacctid]

Don't do that, that's just asking for trouble. If the DCs are too high, make the DCs lower. Don't do things that have the potential to break the CR system if you miscalculate.
If you never do anything with the potential to break the CR system if you miscalculate, you'll never make any NPCs with class levels.

Besides, I guarantee that having a higher Truespeak check is not going to break anything. I'm pretty sure you could give all your NPC truenamers the garbler ability to auto-succeed without causing any serious problems.

[Mordaedil]

Honestly, binding is coolest when you make your own vestiges. How long have you and your players been playing in this setting? Are there any notable big bads that they have defeated in the past who might make cool vestiges?

We just recently started, after our last DM had to bail out on us after his real life responsibilities caught up to him. We threw a vote on some games we had ideas for and my idea won, which was an all-wizards campaign setting in a magic heavy setting.

So far the most dangerous enemy they've faced was their lack of sense of direction, the party splitting up just as we started and a rat swarm.

Mind, I've left them to be pretty open as to what they wanted to do, so this thread is more to prepare me for what might happen.


One thing I'm confused about is the thread title. None of this really seems like it's "countering" anything, it's just having enemies that happen to use Tome of Magic abilities. I've got nothing against that, and this thread has good suggestions for doing that, but I feel like there may be something people have missed.
The "counter" is more as "in opposition to". As in, I wasn't making a thread asking for build advice on how to make an effective character with play in mind, but as NPC's with the flavor to face the players and be a corresponding threat. I will admit I could have phrased it better, chalk it up to poor foresight on my part.


D&D has a goddamn enormous amount of shadow magic. Shadowcasters, Shadowcraft Adepts, Swordsages specializing in Shadow Hand, Shadowdancers, Dragonmark Heirs of the Mark of Shadow (easily re-fluffed as being a tattoo rather than a bloodline), that Shadow/Fear PrC from Complete Mage, and probably even more stuff I'm forgetting. It's not hard to postulate an organization that simply trains anyone who happens to have some shadow-y talents for whatever reason. Could draw from the Noi Guin in Red Sister.
So rogues, rangers, monks... I must admit I didn't think about Swordsages and Shadow Hand. That might work fairly well, if I don't want to just throw a monk at them. The consensus does seem to be that shadowcasters are more effective at middle-levels though, so I think they might be a better organisation to keep in the dark until they get a few levels under their belt.

This gives me an idea of the progression on when I should introduce these organisations, possibly who they'd be interested in recruiting. Binders would be to conjurers and shadowcasters would prefer illusionists, obviously. Is there a parallell for truenamers or are they just kinda... Lorekeepers?

This thread is giving me pretty much what I need so far, thanks everyone.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The consensus does seem to be that shadowcasters are more effective at middle-levels though, so I think they might be a better organisation to keep in the dark until they get a few levels under their belt.

You'll probably want to keep them in the dark even after that. Because, y'know. Shadowcasters. :smallamused:


This gives me an idea of the progression on when I should introduce these organisations, possibly who they'd be interested in recruiting. Binders would be to conjurers and shadowcasters would prefer illusionists, obviously. Is there a parallell for truenamers or are they just kinda... Lorekeepers?

I'd go with two different schools for each, and not usual pairings like Evocation/Conjuration or Enchantment/Illusion, so they're less one-note.

Binder organizations would like Enchanters in addition to Conjurers: With the mental influence a vestige can have on a binder when a pact goes wrong, and a need for ever-maligned binders to force people to get along with them, people who can both defend against and use Enchantment would be useful. Shadowcaster organizations would like Necromancers in addition to Illusionists: Plenty of their stuff is necromancy-adjacent (fear, debuffs, temporary HP, black fire, animation, and other creepy stuff), and lots of classic incorporeal undead are shadow-themed (shadows, wraiths, nightshades...).

Truenamer organizations would like Diviners and Transmuters: Their whole schtick is "knowing something at a deep level [Divination] gives you control over them," and that control is usually expressed in terms of Transmutation effects (flight, speed changes, gaining or enhancing senses, twisting flesh, etc. for Evolving Mind; fixing things, changing composition, metamagicking things, etc. for Crafted Tool; shaping earth, moving air, etc. for Perfected Map).

[Mordaedil]

I kinda made the connection with regards to shadowcasters since they have an early entry talking about shadow illusions and plane of negative energy, thus necromancy made sense, as would evokers with darkness spells, but that is an extremely limited subset of casters. Binders also being attached to enchanters is neat.

And thanks for that pointer to truenamers being drawn to diviners and transmuters, now I finally have a goal for them to target, rather than just going around being guys with signs predicting doomsday ala Rorschach. Even though that is still a nifty cover for them and I might keep them to doing that.


This idea kinda becomes a thing of three organisations that is up to no good while the players are adventuring, though I have some good ideas for what plots they are up to, at least you guys helped me nail where they recruit from now. :smallamused:

The fact that abjurers are so far untouched fits fine with my plans anyway.

[Falontani]

Abjuration and evocation are most definitely the high arcane schools. Even compared to divine spellcasting evocation is much more powerful for arcane users, and while divine users can use Abjuration to great effect, I'm personally in the boat that abjurant champion is the gish class and where the arcane knights usually land.

[Cosi]

If you never do anything with the potential to break the CR system if you miscalculate, you'll never make any NPCs with class levels.

The CR system deals with classed NPCs fine. Insofar as there is a problem, it is a class balance problem not the CR system breaking. Abusing non-associated class levels because you think the result will work is not fine.


Besides, I guarantee that having a higher Truespeak check is not going to break anything. I'm pretty sure you could give all your NPC truenamers the garbler ability to auto-succeed without causing any serious problems.

Yes, you could do the thing I said you could do. That's why I said you could do it. If you want to get around the fact that Truenamers can't make the skill checks they're supposed to make, deal with that directly. Don't use rules that have a very high potential to result in extreme imbalance to hack around it.

Fix problems where they happen, not by adding epicycles elsewhere. 99% of bad houserules or bad RAW interpretations come from trying to fix something in the wrong place (or trying to fix something that isn't a problem).

[Troacctid]

The CR system deals with classed NPCs fine. Insofar as there is a problem, it is a class balance problem not the CR system breaking. Abusing non-associated class levels because you think the result will work is not fine.
It's not abuse. It's the intended function of the rule in question. Nonassociated levels don't advance the monster's truenaming abilities at all, they just add more skill ranks, which is equivalent to (for example) nonassociated sorcerer levels adding BAB to a brute-type monster.


Yes, you could do the thing I said you could do. That's why I said you could do it. If you want to get around the fact that Truenamers can't make the skill checks they're supposed to make, deal with that directly. Don't use rules that have a very high potential to result in extreme imbalance to hack around it.

Fix problems where they happen, not by adding epicycles elsewhere. 99% of bad houserules or bad RAW interpretations come from trying to fix something in the wrong place (or trying to fix something that isn't a problem).
It's not a fix for anything. It's just acknowledging that PCs and NPCs are very different, and a problem for one is not necessarily a problem for the other.

Utterances are problematic because as a PC, you're often expected to fight monsters whose level is the same as yours or higher. But as an NPC, especially a boss, you know for certain that you're going to be fighting PCs who are lower-level than you, and it turns out utterances are pretty dang reliable in that situation.