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Daimbert
2007-09-22, 10:09 AM
I posted earlier if it was possible to get modules that you could run through as a solo player (basically, myself as DM and all the players). I'm about ready to start looking at setting this up, and so need to know about the basic details of the set-up. So:

1) Considering that I'm going to be the DM and the players, what basic books and things do I need (I don't have anything now). I'm not afraid to buy a few books, and I don't need (or really want) advanced classes or crafting rules or anything like that. The bare minimum to have a campaign or a module is what I need.

2) People mentioned free modules at WotC a few times. Where are they? I found some for that one based on geographic areas in the world, but I'm not sure that's what I'm looking for.

3) Any advice on any ones that I might want to purchase? Remember that I'll be both the DM and the player, so while twists are great, if the DM has to know about them first it wouldn't go over well.

As I said in the previous post I'm not after board games, since Betrayal at House on the Hill and the OotS Adventure Game cover that off more than sufficiently. I mostly want a story-based module romp; basically, something like a computer RPG with more freedom in classes and how things work out (in short, where the DM can make allowances for good roleplaying) and perhaps even some replayability. I just don't want to script it all out myself and then follow it; if I was going to do that, I'd tweak the adventure game Java code I have and make that work. As I also said, I'm not against buying stuff either, although I want the minimum in case I don't like it.

Thanks in advance.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-22, 10:17 AM
By yourself? But you'll know absolutely everything! You'll know when to search for trap doors, and all the monster's weaknesses, etc.

Daimbert
2007-09-22, 10:21 AM
By yourself? But you'll know absolutely everything! You'll know when to search for trap doors, and all the monster's weaknesses, etc.

Actually, I've never found this to be that much of a problem. For example, I've played KOTOR (the computer game) various times with multiple characters, as well as strategy games like MOO2, and while I always KNOW what's going to happen I find it isn't that hard (and is generally, in fact, mandatory) to separate from what _I_ know and what the CHARACTER or RACE knows, and so act as the CHARACTER would instead of how _I_ (knowing everything) would. About the only thing it does is stop me from doing exceptionally stupid things that I know are disastrous, but that's a good thing for me (disasters frustrate me [grin]).

But, yes, it is always easy and tempting to cheat ... but then I'd cheat on the side of the players, which isn't all THAT bad [grin].

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-09-22, 10:43 AM
There are a few solo modules out there for various systems (OD&D, Fighting Fantasy, etc) - but I've never heard of anyone doing what you're proposing.

As for what books you need to play D&D, you would need the Players Handbook (PHB), the Dungeon Masters Guide (DMG) and the Monster Manual (MM). Google for them, they're on sale in lots of places... BUT - As WotC are shortly going to bring out their 4th Edition rules, you might want to wait till Spring 2008.

Anyway: taking scenarios that were written for a DM and players and running them as a solo really isn't going to work I'm afaraid. The scenarios would need to be re-written, and not by the person who was going to play it. Otherwise you get to see all the secrets and options and so on. If you read the way that a DM+players game is written, I think you'll see the point. Here's a link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b) to those free WotC games - take a look.
The problem is that D&D and its adventures is designed to be run with at least two people: a DM and a player. The DM has the story and setting notes, and the player acts their character's part. If you tried to be both the DM and the player, you'd know too much. The thing is, in KOTOR and any MMORPG the computer software is being the DM. Someone has to be the DM.

Here's a link (http://www.ffproject.com/cgi-bin/pg?f=rules)to some online Fighting Fantasy gamebooks. Here, the book is being the DM. Though it's a simplistic rules system, and the scvenarios themselves are a bit dated, you'll get more out of playing these by yourself than you would from trying to run a D&D game for DM+players by yourself.

jamroar
2007-09-22, 11:24 AM
Here's a link (http://www.ffproject.com/cgi-bin/pg?f=rules)to some online Fighting Fantasy gamebooks. Here, the book is being the DM. Though it's a simplistic rules system, and the scvenarios themselves are a bit dated, you'll get more out of playing these by yourself than you would from trying to run a D&D game for DM+players by yourself.


I particularly enjoyed the classic Blood Sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Sword) gamebooks. It had party based tactical combat, multiple player classes and a well written adventure path spanning five books giving it the feel of an real P&P campaign.

Another one that was sadly only half-completed Fabled Lands (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/fabled_lands/) series, which was a non-linear(!) sandbox gamebook, which gave the player character free reign to explore the world, join factions and pursue quests across the interlocking books in the series.

bugsysservant
2007-09-22, 11:29 AM
Actually, I've never found this to be that much of a problem. For example, I've played KOTOR (the computer game) various times with multiple characters, as well as strategy games like MOO2, and while I always KNOW what's going to happen I find it isn't that hard (and is generally, in fact, mandatory) to separate from what _I_ know and what the CHARACTER or RACE knows, and so act as the CHARACTER would instead of how _I_ (knowing everything) would. About the only thing it does is stop me from doing exceptionally stupid things that I know are disastrous, but that's a good thing for me (disasters frustrate me [grin]).

But, yes, it is always easy and tempting to cheat ... but then I'd cheat on the side of the players, which isn't all THAT bad [grin].

Wait, you actually roleplay in CRPGs? I don't know anyone who doesn't metagame with those.

Ranis
2007-09-22, 11:33 AM
You're....it's....er....you're doing what now?

PhallicWarrior
2007-09-22, 11:37 AM
You know what roleplaying is, right? CRPGs are computer rpgs like KotOR or Baldur's gate, where the computer (or xbox or ps/2/3) is the GM.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-22, 12:09 PM
There was a recent discussion on Fear The Boot (as a podcast, but you can to to the site and pull it right off the web) about 'Maturity of games'. It was largely about how most roleplayers start with the basic dungeon crawl/hack and slash and then advance into a more 'mature' game where they interact with others in a richer tapestry of roleplaying. That was countered with 99% of the rules deal with combat with only a paragraph or two talking about roleplaying. I didn't get to hear the end of the debate, but I have my own theories.

The reason I bring this up is that in a solo campaign, you completely strip out the roleplaying aspect of the game. As to the 99% combat rules, I counter that with decades of sci-fi and fantasy movies to dictate how to roleplay. As well as libraries of history and fantasy. So, compared to the vast array of roleplaying source material, a stack of rulebooks for combat is insignificant.

Daimbert
2007-09-22, 12:53 PM
Okay, I see a few running themes in this discussion, so I'll just answer them now:

1) The DM/player combo ruining things: Well, this is a good point. But the reason I'm willing to try it is that it seems to me that the largest problem here is that the player would know things that the player shouldn't know because the DM HAS to know it. This mainly, to me, seems to be an issue with story: the DM may well have to know aspects and twists in the story that the player should be surprised by. My KOTOR example was an attempt to strike at that: even if the computer is the DM, the fact that I've played the game over 10 times means that I'm well aware of EVERY SINGLE STORY ASPECT in the game. I know every twist and every place the plot goes ... and it's still fun. It's fun to take out a character, hit the plot twists, and say "How would THIS character deal with that?" For example, in my latest run WELL before the end I was thinking about whether or not my character (a clone of Corwin of Amber) would make a particular crucial choice in the Temple towards the end. This is because I'm willing and able to make a distinction between what _I_ know or would do and what the CHARACTER knows or would do. To me, that's the heart of roleplaying.

So if there's another reason why DM'ing is incompatible with playing, then I'm all ears ... but I'm not scared by the "I may know things I'm not supposed to know" issue. I don't want to have to know THE ENTIRE STORY before I start (at least the first time), but beyond that a little look-ahead doesn't bother me much.

2) Roleplaying: Well, I hinted at it above, but I don't see how my attempting this takes all of the roleplaying out of the picture. If anything, it's only fun IF roleplaying is done ... if you build backstories and take character actions based on what the characters would do. Otherwise, it does just turn into a combat fest. Okay, conversation may be an issue, but even that isn't bad: you can have different characters say different things based on what they'd do, effectively writing them on the fly. Which is one of the limits with CRPGs ... you can't say what your character would say if it isn't available. But again, I don't see that as that much of a problem, and I know that if I do mess something up I have a friendly DM who will creatively shove it back on track.

3) A point of clarification for my own: This is mostly to give me something to do on days when I'm at home and don't have much to do, but want to do some sort of roleplaying. I don't generally have the time or the easy access to get into full groups (and can't commit) but this is something that I can do when I have the time that can be put aside if I get busy without inconveniencing anyone else.

4) Another point of clarification: I do this sort of thing a lot anyway, mostly with strategy games. I think it's worse for strategy games; at least in RPGs the DM isn't really supposed to be your enemy and trying to win the game [grin]. Why do I do this? Started as a kid. I had one brother 3 years older than me, but when it came to games like this he never wanted to play them. So I played on my own, injected some roleplaying (because it isn't fun otherwise) and it works. So I'm thinking that this might work out better (although based on other threads I'm looking more at Mutants and Masterminds now to start based on glowing reviews [grin]).

5) Computer game metagaming: I don't think that I can escape that, and know that I don't (LS mastery MEANS something, for example). But I like KOTOR because it rarely tells me what my motivation for doing something is. So I can say to the main villain that what he just told me doesn't bother me (thinking, in the back of my mind, that it does and I'm just not going to let him see that) and act in the opposite way later. I can help or hinder people because my character would do it. But it isn't free enough ... I can't create a party of characters that are related to each other in interesting ways and have them ACT that way towards each other. And that sucks. (I could probably try writing a game that did that, but it's too much work when I program all day besides [grin]).

Whew. Think I've covered anything. If not, remind me and I'll cover it later.

Crow
2007-09-22, 12:55 PM
Well you could make up loads of tables for npc's, quests, and encounters and the like. "Oooh, we reach the end of the hallway, now I'll roll to see if it turns left, right, or has a door to a room."

crimson77
2007-09-22, 12:55 PM
1) Considering that I'm going to be the DM and the players, what basic books and things do I need (I don't have anything now). I'm not afraid to buy a few books, and I don't need (or really want) advanced classes or crafting rules or anything like that. The bare minimum to have a campaign or a module is what I need.

I would suggest the Players Handbook, the Dungeon Masters Guide, and the Monster Manual. However, if it is just going to be you, then maybe all you need is a players handbook. However, you should note that 4th edition will be coming out during 2008. If it were me, i would wait and buy the new edition rather than spending money on books that will soon be out of print.


2) People mentioned free modules at WotC a few times. Where are they? I found some for that one based on geographic areas in the world, but I'm not sure that's what I'm looking for.

You can find the rules at d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/). However, wizards only gave out for free about 85-95% of the rules. Things that you will be missing are: experience tables, point buy tables, examples of how things work, feat tables, etc. You will just get the bare bones game.


3) Any advice on any ones that I might want to purchase? Remember that I'll be both the DM and the player, so while twists are great, if the DM has to know about them first it wouldn't go over well.

As far as purchasing a quest, i would skip it. There are plenty of free quests on the internet for free. You can find some older ones here (http://www.rpgarchive.com/index.php?page=adv&title=Popular&sort=Popular).

I think that playing solo quests are a great way to learn the system rules. When i converted from 2e to 3e, I played several solo quests to learn the rules and to get ready for DMing real players.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-22, 12:57 PM
Geez... if you're playing alone, why not just write a book or play a video game or something?

Doesn't playing alone kinda defeat the point of D&D as a social game? Or am I missing something? :smallconfused:

Daimbert
2007-09-22, 01:24 PM
Well you could make up loads of tables for npc's, quests, and encounters and the like. "Oooh, we reach the end of the hallway, now I'll roll to see if it turns left, right, or has a door to a room."

That would work if I wasn't more interested in a story-based module than a dungeon crawl [grin].

(Heck, THAT I could even probably program if it interested me.)


I would suggest the Players Handbook, the Dungeon Masters Guide, and the Monster Manual. However, if it is just going to be you, then maybe all you need is a players handbook. However, you should note that 4th edition will be coming out during 2008. If it were me, i would wait and buy the new edition rather than spending money on books that will soon be out of print.

Well, I have some experience with 3.5 from the games and so I know how it works, and I'm not interested in being in or using the latest and greatest, so I'd rather start with current books and go from there, at least to start.


I think that playing solo quests are a great way to learn the system rules. When i converted from 2e to 3e, I played several solo quests to learn the rules and to get ready for DMing real players.

Woo-hoo! Someone who doesn't think I'm crazy [grin].

Thanks for the other suggestions (although as I said in another post I am leaning towards M&M now because it sounds more interesting).


Geez... if you're playing alone, why not just write a book or play a video game or something?

Well, because I'm finding those options strangely lacking, and not because of a lack of socialization [grin].

Seriously, video games are too constrictive; I can't build meaningful parties and party interactions since they don't allow for that. And if I was going to write the module myself, I WOULD just write a book ... but then there'd be NO surprise and I'd have a REALLY hard time modifying to deal with different parties and adventurers.


Doesn't playing alone kinda defeat the point of D&D as a social game? Or am I missing something?

Well, I'm not aiming to make it satisfy my social needs, but mostly for something to do when I'm not doing other things, some involving other people [grin].

Seriously again, it's because I like roleplaying, chafe at the restrictions video games impose on me, and don't really have the time to commit to a large on-going campaign with anyone. What other options do I have?

Citizen Joe
2007-09-22, 01:25 PM
This probably goes more towards gaming without a GM:

Start by figuring out how much experience is needed for the group to advance to the next level.

Now subdivide that into a bunch of challenges according to the recommendation in the DMG. 10% easy, 50% challenging, 15% very difficult, 5% overpowering, etc.

Make challenge cards with the appropriate CR ratings, divided into the divisions above. So most of your challenge cards will be challenging, with some easy, some difficult, etc. In place of the overpowering, put in "Draw 2". Some of these challenges may be natural or traps.

Make a set of location cards. Like forest setting, lake edge, road, etc. all according to some prescribed logic. i.e. This is a wilderness adventure.

Make a set of situation cards. These can be like night time, or foggy, rainy, etc. Include some "Draw 2" cards

Make a set of position cards. These indicate where the challenge is relative to the group.

Now, everyone rolls a couple d20, which are used based on the information on the cards you are about to draw.

Draw a card from each deck to create an encounter. Play it out from there. The d20 rolls before drawing may be for surprise or saves or initiative or spot checks, depending on the specific situation.

Crow
2007-09-22, 01:32 PM
Sounds like he just wants to tell a story without having to write it.

Seriously, you will know where the story is going unless you somehow make it random.

crimson77
2007-09-22, 01:32 PM
Well, I'm not aiming to make it satisfy my social needs, but mostly for something to do when I'm not doing other things, some involving other people [grin].

Seriously again, it's because I like roleplaying, chafe at the restrictions video games impose on me, and don't really have the time to commit to a large on-going campaign with anyone. What other options do I have?

I would suggest maybe playing a pbp game here. They can take as little as 10 minutes per day. If you are DMing then when you are bored/have free time, you can write the next scene.

tahu88810
2007-09-22, 01:32 PM
I actually do this all the time, heres what you do:

Get a lot of character sheets (Print out a set and then just make a whole bunch of copies at the library)
Get the core books (PHB, DMG, MM) or use the SRD (I'll post a link if you need one)
Get a battle-grid of some kind, or do what I do and just place the characters on the floor/table in relative location during battle.

NOW in order to play, you just have each character have their own goals/dreams/desires/etc. Each character is now a main character. You can choose to have one or more characters have more focus (Such as you follow them around, and ignore Archie the commoner until he needs to show up. This is preferred, and the main focus group will be the 'PCs'). Now, after each real character (Usually nobles, adventurers, tavern owners, etc. is made, just make it into one big story. If the evil fighter massacres a village, and the good paladin you made is nearby then a fight will probably happen. Roleplay it out, it just becomes one big story with massive amounts of characters.
You don't need a DM, infact, try not to plan things out. Let plot-twists come along by nature, not by DM doing.

AND always keep extra character sheets handy, you'll need them when the 'Main Group' leaves their current country.

BizzaroStormy
2007-09-22, 02:34 PM
Sorry but this just sounds dumb. Whats the point of making a campaign where you know everything? You might as well just save yourself the time of making a coplex campaign, fitting it to D&D standards, and just go play with some action figures instead. Or even better, go to a Goodwill, buy some action figures for 10 cents a piece, and blow them up with leftover fireworks.

Daimbert
2007-09-22, 02:47 PM
Sorry but this just sounds dumb. Whats the point of making a campaign where you know everything? You might as well just save yourself the time of making a coplex campaign, fitting it to D&D standards,

Yep ... which is why I asked for and would only play PRE-MADE MODULES [grin]. Hopefully I wouldn't have to read the whole thing before playing it.

And Crimson77, I thought and am still thinking about getting into a pbp game here ... but this is for things like Sunday afternoons or snow days, and pbp game won't work that way [grin].

As for the other methods, it seems like more work than using pre-made modules, which I should be able to use reasonably well.

Thanks for all the advice so far. I am looking like I'll do M&M instead, but if that works out I'll almost certainly do D&D as well.

Iku Rex
2007-09-22, 03:22 PM
It is doable. I've tried it, and while it got dull rather quickly it passed the time and I actually have some vivid game memories of scenes from those games.

The key is role-playing and lots of dice rolling.

Based on my experience:

1) Use one character. Roleplaying an entire party seems like too much of a challenge. I've found that +4 levels compared to the adventure standard makes for a survivable character, but if you're unexperienced with making characters you might want to make it +5 or even +6. The higher level character also lets you pull flashy moves from time to time, to spice up combat. Make the character before reading the adventure, to avoid metagaming and the fear of metagaming.

2) Roll lots of dice. You don't have to randomize every encounter - knowing that you'll be fighting gnolls doesn't matter. Instead you roll dice to see when the gnolls go on patrol, how the leader responds to having half his men cut down, what lowly packmember Hrgaf does when his weapon is sundered, and so on. It helps twist the story from how you expected it to go when you first read the adventure, beyond the obvious random factor of saves and skill checks and attack rolls.

3) You can get by with just the SRD, but you'd have to hunt down the missing info on the web, which is a hassle. (It's not copyrighted, just missing.) You might be able to pick up the three core rulebooks for cheap on eBay or whatnot now that they've announced 4th edition. Either way, make sure you buy the 3.5 edition version of the books. I'd also consider buying a campaign setting book like the Eberron Campaign Setting, to get a detail campaign world to play in. (The ECS also has a 1st level adventure included.)

Adventures can be found on WotC's website (already linked elsewhere in thread). If you want to buy an adventure I've both DMed and played (in a group) Red Hand of Doom (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Adventure/dp/0786939389/ref=pd_sim_b_1/103-5996105-8701448?ie=UTF8&qid=1190492013&sr=8-1), and it's pretty good. It's intended for level 5+ PCs, so you may want to warm up with some lower level adventures first. If you want to really dive in from day one, the Shackled City (http://www.amazon.com/Shackled-City-Adventure-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0977007103/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5996105-8701448?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190508516&sr=8-1) adventure path goes from level 1 to 20. (Never played or DMed.)

Iku Rex
2007-09-22, 03:26 PM
Seriously, you will know where the story is going unless you somehow make it random.What's so bad about knowing where the story is going? You've never read a book twice? Never watched a movie you've seen before?

And there is a way to somehow make it random. They're called dice.

Crow
2007-09-22, 03:29 PM
What's so bad about knowing where the story is going? You've never read a book twice? Never watched a movie you've seen before?

And there is a way to somehow make it random. They're called dice.


1. Everybody knows where the story is going to some degree or another. But the OP was talking about the "DM" (him in this case), putting the characters back on track if they wander off. To me at least, in the context given, it sounds like the OP really just wants to tell a story and add a little randomness.

2. So thinking along these lines, I suggested making things random (by rolling dice) like you suggest. To which the OP said (paraphrase) "it wouldn't work".

bugsysservant
2007-09-22, 03:48 PM
You know what roleplaying is, right? CRPGs are computer rpgs like KotOR or Baldur's gate, where the computer (or xbox or ps/2/3) is the GM.

You're telling me that you stay completly in caharacter when playing a CRPG?

When you face a powerful and apparently unbeatable foe you say "Oh ****, that thing's too powerful!" and run away, rather than "Hmmm...they wouldn't make a game that was unbeatable, that would be pointless. Now what clever weakness would they give him that will prove to be his Achille's heel?"

If you find a locked door, and simultaneously can't complete a quest, do you look for the key, because you realize that it would be highly improbable that the developers would code a door as a red herring for an impossible quest just to piss you off, or do you say to yourself "Not everything in this virtual world has to do with me or my quest, there's no real reason to get sidetracked by some random door."?

The question is not whether I know what roleplaying is, but rather, do you know what "metagaming" is?

crimson77
2007-09-22, 04:03 PM
2) Roll lots of dice. You don't have to randomize every encounter - knowing that you'll be fighting gnolls doesn't matter. Instead you roll dice to see when the gnolls go on patrol, how the leader responds to having half his men cut down, what lowly packmember Hrgaf does when his weapon is sundered, and so on. It helps twist the story from how you expected it to go when you first read the adventure, beyond the obvious random factor of saves and skill checks and attack rolls.


I would roll to see which creature attacks who. Additionally, when I solo quested, I would roll diplomacy checks for every NPC, to keep myself from cheating the system. It can be hard to not cheat.

All this talk makes me want to do a solo quest again.

Daimbert
2007-09-22, 06:12 PM
It is doable. I've tried it, and while it got dull rather quickly it passed the time and I actually have some vivid game memories of scenes from those games.

The key is role-playing and lots of dice rolling.

That sounds like exactly what I want ... especially that role-playing key [grin].

That being said, all of your advice is good but there's one thing I want to comment on:


1) Use one character. Roleplaying an entire party seems like too much of a challenge.

The problem here is that I generally dislike one character games, and really love "Create the whole party games" where I can spend a lot of time and have a lot of fun creating a bunch of characters and how their personalities all match. It's also more fun for me to play a diversity of personality types (sometimes based on people I know). That being said, I DID like it in KOTOR, but I don't want to limit myself to one character and then find that the experiment fails because of that. Maybe a small party? But a normal party is 6 characters to me (relic of AD&D games on the PC [grin]) so 4 would be smaller for me ...

Other than that, I'll look at the modules you suggest as well, but that may not be until next year. Like I've said, I'm now REALLY interested in the M&M books. Even found an on-line (not free) module that looks REALLY interesting, and I'm suffering from superhero withdrawl anyway ...


1. Everybody knows where the story is going to some degree or another. But the OP was talking about the "DM" (him in this case), putting the characters back on track if they wander off. To me at least, in the context given, it sounds like the OP really just wants to tell a story and add a little randomness.

Well, what I meant by that was that if I-as-DM was reading along and discovered that the actions of myself-as-player screwed everything up, the friendly and creative I-as-DM would either make a bridge up myself on the spot or allow a do-over to get it back on track. Basically, I don't want to tell a story and add a little randomness, but EXPERIENCE a story being able to act as different characters. Or, basically, roleplay a story. An interactive movie style module would work for me, to be honest ... as long as I could act on the basis of the personalities of the characters I create.


2. So thinking along these lines, I suggested making things random (by rolling dice) like you suggest. To which the OP said (paraphrase) "it wouldn't work".

Actually, didn't I reply to those sorts of suggestions by saying "It's MORE work" [grin]?