Goblin Monk/Ranger with high rolled stats. What level progression?

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

tldr: When would you take each level for a Goblin Shadow Monk/Gloom Stalker Ranger up to about level 10 or 11 to get the most out of them, including feats or ASIs, using the below stats?

So, I started a campaign a couple of week's ago that's a homebrewed 5e version of the AD&D module Desert of Desolation. I had a couple of concepts I'd been wanting to try out, which included a Goblin Monk and a Genasi Ranger. The Genasi Ranger would've fit the setting more, but I was really itching to try out the Goblin. Our group was short on anyone with survival expertise and ability to survive in the desert (we're keeping track of food, water, fire for the cold nights, etc.) so being a ranger was decidedly more useful. Since we started at level 2, I eventually decided to mix both of them and wound up with a Goblin Monk/Ranger.

So I rolled for stats and wound up with: 17, 17, 15, 14, 13, 12. So my current stats with Goblin racials are: 13 str, 19 dex, 16 con, 14 int, 17 wis, 12 cha. Pretty much good enough that I don't have to worry about anything stat-wise. Maybe take a split ASI for dex and wis, but that's about it.

I'm planning on going Shadow Monk/Gloom Stalker, but I'm curious about the best break down on when to level each. I'm currently at 1 Monk/1 Ranger, but we just got enough experience to level up and I'm curious if I should continue down Gloom Stalker until I hit level 3 for Dread Ambusher, or continue down Shadow Monk until level 6 to get my shadow teleport. I'll eventually get both since they work so well together. The DM has told us that he expects this campaign to end with us around level 10 or 11, so I'm not really looking for progression until 20, just trying to decide where to best put my levels each level up until around 10 or so. I know the answer here is really something along the lines of "with those stats, you'll be fine whatever you do" but I'd appreciate a little guidance about the leveling.

Some further information: Our DM is allowing me to use the revised Ranger rules for the ranger portion of the build. It seems a little broken already to me even at level 2 from what little we've played, but no one's complained about it so far. I'll probably talk to the DM about adjusting it a bit to tone it down some, like bringing back favored terrain (which I'd obviously pick desert) instead of ALL terrains and limiting the +2 damage to ALL humanoids a bit (my backstory essentially has me being really good at tracking down lost travelers and escaped convicts who fled to the desert, so the tracking portion of Favored Enemy: Humanoids at least makes sense there).

Our party composition is: Variant Human Fighter (Polearm Master with Glaive), Divine Soul Sorcerer (think he's human, not sure), Variant Human Swashbuckler, Variant Human Spore Druid.

I know I'll likely end up at least Shadow Monk 6/Gloom Stalker 3, which would give me the teleport, shadow monk spells, ranger spells, +wis modifier to initiative, advantage on initiative, advantage on enemies who haven't taken a turn yet, invisible in dim light/darkness, teleport to dim light/darkness, as well as the extra monk attack and other ki features. I'm not sure if I want to take a feat first (was thinking mobile, maybe) or put a point into Dex and Wis, which would increase my AC by 2, along with other benefits.

Either way, could really use a good breakdown of when to take which levels, what feats (if any) to take/when to take them, and where I should end up at around 10 or 11 (i.e. Gloom Stalker to 4 for another ASI, or Monk for evasion/more ki points? etc).

[CTurbo]

With stats like that, I'd probably take 2 more Ranger levels next and then Monk from there. Option #2 would be to take the next 4 levels of Monk to get extra attack, and then 2 more Ranger levels.

Option number 1 gets you Dread Ambusher, spells, and Fighting style faster, but puts off second attack and ASI a long time.

Option number 2 is reverse.

[thoroughlyS]

Some further information: Our DM is allowing me to use the revised Ranger rules for the ranger portion of the build. It seems a little broken already to me even at level 2 from what little we've played, but no one's complained about it so far. I'll probably talk to the DM about adjusting it a bit to tone it down some, like bringing back favored terrain (which I'd obviously pick desert) instead of ALL terrains and limiting the +2 damage to ALL humanoids a bit (my backstory essentially has me being really good at tracking down lost travelers and escaped convicts who fled to the desert, so the tracking portion of Favored Enemy: Humanoids at least makes sense there).
I'm a pretty big fan of rangers as a concept, and have done a lot of reading on various (https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/classes/ranger) 'versions' (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DX_0907_UA_RangerOptions.pdf) of (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf) the (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?462877-Ranger-Rework-v1-3) class (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw4_sxykbTWcWWxHaWFXX3Y5TFU/view). In my opinion, allowing natural explorer to function in all terrains is fine. The biggest issue is the "can't get lost" clause, because it removes one way your DM can take the game. I would recommend dropping it, and keeping all terrains. As for favored enemy, I personally dislike the damage bonus, but it isn't going to break anything. Revised ranger isn't really "broken" per se, but is pretty front-loaded. If you take a few more levels in it, you can kind of feel it mellow out. Very importantly, mixing revised ranger and gloom stalker kind of "double dips" on some bonuses, because gloom stalker was beefed up to work with the PHB ranger chassis. If you are using revised ranger, I recommend using the deep stalker subclass listed in the UA document.

I know I'll likely end up at least Shadow Monk 6/Gloom Stalker 3, which would give me the teleport, shadow monk spells, ranger spells, +wis modifier to initiative, advantage on initiative, advantage on enemies who haven't taken a turn yet, invisible in dim light/darkness, teleport to dim light/darkness, as well as the extra monk attack and other ki features. I'm not sure if I want to take a feat first (was thinking mobile, maybe) or put a point into Dex and Wis, which would increase my AC by 2, along with other benefits.
You sound like you want to be more of a monk, and mostly took ranger out of a perceived "necessity". In that case, I recommend getting to Monk 6 first to get extra attack, stunning strike, and shadow step. At 4th level, you should take Mobile so you don't have to spend Ki Points disengaging. After that, its really up to you if you want to progress monk or ranger. Two more levels in monk means you could increase your DEX and WIS, plus nabbing evasion. On the other hand, progressing ranger gives you a Fighting Style, a few actual spell slots, and Dread Ambusher, at the cost of pushing the ASI back two levels.

[djreynolds]

After 5th levels of monk your damage is still 1d6, and will not bump til level 11.

So more than likely your using a spear or staff twohanded for 1d8. AFB if it affects you as a small creature in regards to damage.

But it seems you want that shadow step.

Saves are the same, so it won't impact which class you start with. It just impacts when get your 6th monk level for shadow step.

This may not come together til at least 9th level.

Since you are 1/1, take another level of ranger now for the spells. And then monk to 6th level.

[Keravath]

Keep in mind that hunters mark can be very beneficial on a monk .. especially on rounds where you get four attacks.

[djreynolds]

Keep in mind that hunters mark can be very beneficial on a monk .. especially on rounds where you get four attacks.

100%, grab 2 levels of ranger. You got nothing else to concentrate on.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Thanks for the replies!

To answer some questions, I had two separate character concepts going into this game and decided to combine them since it felt like it fit the setting. The first concept was essentially goblin anime ninja, while the second was a survivalist desert ranger. His story was that he went through hard Ninja Assassin-esque training, which he escaped from. He ran to the desert and has been using his Assassin-esque tracking training as both a bounty Hunter and a sort of desert search and rescue (which explains his favored enemy being humanoids since he's spent so much time tracking them).

You're not wrong in that I'm more interested in the Monk side than the ranger side, but I think the combination works well with his backstory. And the survivalist aspects have definitely worked well so far.

I'm currently using a spear 2-handed (DM allows unarmed attacks while two-handing monk weapons) with a longbow in backup. I was curious how worthwhile mobile would be, since Goblins are already allowed to disengage for free on a bonus action. Shadow Monk also gets Pass without a Trace for ki points at level 3, which was part of the conundrum on what to get first.

Does it matter much which path I take to get Monk 6/Ranger 3? Is Monk 6/Ranger 4 worthwhile? If I just alternated levels, would I still turn out alright?

[Wildarm]

+2 to humanoids is not really a big deal. Very similar to if you took dueling fighting style from a fighter level dip instead. Just a static damage boost and only to a somewhat common enemy.

Might be too late to get rid of that monk class but I would have suggested pushing to Revised Ranger 6 first to get extra attack ASAP and to get Greater Favored Enemy. It's just that good. +4 damage to Humanoids and Fiends(perhaps) is generally very strong. In addition you have advantage on ALL spell and abilities of your Greater Favored Enemy. If your campaign is heavy on a certain type this can be huge.

From that point on, feel free to go Monk. A revised ranger gloom stalker can rack up some crazy damage in the first round if they get the drop on their foe. Access to Flurry will only increase that. I personally prefer the Hunter - Horde breaker archetype but it's all a matter of preference.

[Foxhound438]

Since you are 1/1, take another level of ranger now for the spells. And then monk to 6th level.

I would agree with this. Rangers have actually a pretty decent selection of niche but good options in their level 1 spells- ensnaring strike is like my go to against any kind of obvious dex creature when I build an ancients paladin, and can be a big help for a primarily melee character like a shadow monk against a flying enemy. Probably take dueling style and switch to a shortsword as your weapon (1d6+2 is better than 1d8 on average), unless you want to take archery to make sure you land the few ranged attacks you'll need to make.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Might be too late to get rid of that monk class but I would have suggested pushing to Revised Ranger 6 first to get extra attack ASAP and to get Greater Favored Enemy. It's just that good. +4 damage to Humanoids and Fiends(perhaps) is generally very strong. In addition you have advantage on ALL spell and abilities of your Greater Favored Enemy. If your campaign is heavy on a certain type this can be huge.


The only thing I'm worried about with this is that the campaign is only supposed to take us to 10-11. If I go that deep into Ranger, I might as well go all the way at that point. I'll probably look into it if we end up continuing into something else. I really do enjoy the versatility that spell casting gives.


Probably take dueling style and switch to a shortsword as your weapon (1d6+2 is better than 1d8 on average), unless you want to take archery to make sure you land the few ranged attacks you'll need to make.

This actually answers another question I forgot to ask. I wasn't sure what fighting style to take when I reached level 2 in Ranger. I was considering Archery, since my bow is a backup, but dueling sounds like a good plan considering I mostly stick around melee unless I'm hurt or something is flying.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Thanks for the replies everyone and sorry to open this back up. I ended up going Monk 2/Ranger 1 and I'll likely continue in Monk until 6, then put the last few levels into Ranger, since we're likely ending around level 10/11, so I'll be able to grab the Ranger ASI and then maybe evasion from Monk if we hit 11.

My question now is that I kind of want to do something fun with my Monk ASI. I was originally going to go mobile or just up my wis/dex, but though those are effective, it felt a little boring to me. For now I've been batting around the idea of getting Ritual Caster: Wizard. Probably grabbing the Find Familiar ritual (I'm thinking bat for flavor) and maybe alarm or identify or something. No one in the party has arcane ritual casting (druid is the only one with rituals), so I figured it would be a good use of any ritual scrolls we might happen across.

Are there any other good, flavorful choices I could grab as a Shadow Monk/Gloomstalker? I pretty much went full bore into this dark delving anime ninja caster with this.

[CTurbo]

Thanks for the replies everyone and sorry to open this back up. I ended up going Monk 2/Ranger 1 and I'll likely continue in Monk until 6, then put the last few levels into Ranger, since we're likely ending around level 10/11, so I'll be able to grab the Ranger ASI and then maybe evasion from Monk if we hit 11.

My question now is that I kind of want to do something fun with my Monk ASI. I was originally going to go mobile or just up my wis/dex, but though those are effective, it felt a little boring to me. For now I've been batting around the idea of getting Ritual Caster: Wizard. Probably grabbing the Find Familiar ritual (I'm thinking bat for flavor) and maybe alarm or identify or something. No one in the party has arcane ritual casting (druid is the only one with rituals), so I figured it would be a good use of any ritual scrolls we might happen across.

Are there any other good, flavorful choices I could grab as a Shadow Monk/Gloomstalker? I pretty much went full bore into this dark delving anime ninja caster with this.


Ritual Caster is extremely flavorful so it's never a bad choice.

Skulker may be a good pickup for you if you think you'll be making ranged attacks from the darkness.

Honestly though I would want my Dex as high as possible so that would almost certainly be my choice.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Recently made a very similar character. So here's what i say.

Monk 2/Ranger 3 is what i started. I know this delays extra attack but you basically have two attacks a turn anyway with martial arts. Use the spear and pick up dueling fighting style. First turn is when you really shine here which is where you deal the most damage.

From there you'll want to either grab an ASI if needed with Ranger 4 (Skulker,Squat Nimbleness or maybe Magic Initiate) and put the rest in Monk. For spells I would grab some utility more than damage. Personally i dont have alot of fun with the ranger's spell list, but things like Zephyr Strike are pretty fun and useful in a pinch.

In any case, just manage what you want to do with your bonus action each round, extra damage or re-positioning or maybe a spell.

Edit: Oh and pick up a short bow for when you need some range. Don't toss that good spear. one attack is better than none if for some reason you cant reach someone despite being super fast.

[Citan]

tldr: When would you take each level for a Goblin Shadow Monk/Gloom Stalker Ranger up to about level 10 or 11 to get the most out of them, including feats or ASIs, using the below stats?

So, I started a campaign a couple of week's ago that's a homebrewed 5e version of the AD&D module Desert of Desolation. I had a couple of concepts I'd been wanting to try out, which included a Goblin Monk and a Genasi Ranger. The Genasi Ranger would've fit the setting more, but I was really itching to try out the Goblin. Our group was short on anyone with survival expertise and ability to survive in the desert (we're keeping track of food, water, fire for the cold nights, etc.) so being a ranger was decidedly more useful. Since we started at level 2, I eventually decided to mix both of them and wound up with a Goblin Monk/Ranger.

So I rolled for stats and wound up with: 17, 17, 15, 14, 13, 12. So my current stats with Goblin racials are: 13 str, 19 dex, 16 con, 14 int, 17 wis, 12 cha. Pretty much good enough that I don't have to worry about anything stat-wise. Maybe take a split ASI for dex and wis, but that's about it.

I'm planning on going Shadow Monk/Gloom Stalker, but I'm curious about the best break down on when to level each. I'm currently at 1 Monk/1 Ranger, but we just got enough experience to level up and I'm curious if I should continue down Gloom Stalker until I hit level 3 for Dread Ambusher, or continue down Shadow Monk until level 6 to get my shadow teleport. I'll eventually get both since they work so well together. The DM has told us that he expects this campaign to end with us around level 10 or 11, so I'm not really looking for progression until 20, just trying to decide where to best put my levels each level up until around 10 or so. I know the answer here is really something along the lines of "with those stats, you'll be fine whatever you do" but I'd appreciate a little guidance about the leveling.

Some further information: Our DM is allowing me to use the revised Ranger rules for the ranger portion of the build. It seems a little broken already to me even at level 2 from what little we've played, but no one's complained about it so far. I'll probably talk to the DM about adjusting it a bit to tone it down some, like bringing back favored terrain (which I'd obviously pick desert) instead of ALL terrains and limiting the +2 damage to ALL humanoids a bit (my backstory essentially has me being really good at tracking down lost travelers and escaped convicts who fled to the desert, so the tracking portion of Favored Enemy: Humanoids at least makes sense there).

Our party composition is: Variant Human Fighter (Polearm Master with Glaive), Divine Soul Sorcerer (think he's human, not sure), Variant Human Swashbuckler, Variant Human Spore Druid.

I know I'll likely end up at least Shadow Monk 6/Gloom Stalker 3, which would give me the teleport, shadow monk spells, ranger spells, +wis modifier to initiative, advantage on initiative, advantage on enemies who haven't taken a turn yet, invisible in dim light/darkness, teleport to dim light/darkness, as well as the extra monk attack and other ki features. I'm not sure if I want to take a feat first (was thinking mobile, maybe) or put a point into Dex and Wis, which would increase my AC by 2, along with other benefits.

Either way, could really use a good breakdown of when to take which levels, what feats (if any) to take/when to take them, and where I should end up at around 10 or 11 (i.e. Gloom Stalker to 4 for another ASI, or Monk for evasion/more ki points? etc).
Hi!

Well, it's a nice idea to get a Monk up and running with such rolls indeed. :)

I see mainly two ways to go.
1. Maximize Monk efficiency over a day by ensuring short rests: this would benefit your Druid too, but that same Druid may also suggest ways to get rests (Polymorph/Wild Shape into a beast that would dig a safe place, Water Breathing to rest on a river bed, etc).
The one way you can help party is Rope Trick. Additional ways could be grabbing Ritual Caster: Wizard to get Leomund's Tiny Hut, but if you pick that you don't need Rope Trick that much anymore.
Anyways, Rope Trick means Ranger 5, so you'd probably want to do something like this. Monk 1 > Ranger 2 (Hunter's Mark) > Monk 3 > Ranger 5 > Monk 4 > whatever (Monk 5 for Stunning Strike and more Ki or continue Ranger so 5/5 or 4/6).

This can be perfectly viable thanks to Revised Ranger bonuses but you'll be playing mostly the same for most of your career, using Ki on Dodging or making Flurry of Blows in combat to stack with Hunter's Mark or Zephyr's Strike, except some situations in which a Darkness/Silence will be a better tactic.

Honestly though I'd say it's putting too much on Ranger for the sake of just getting Rope Trick early. So my main suggestion will be the one following.

2. Maximize Monk potential "for one short rest" and either just pick the Ritual Caster feat or count on your pals (especially Druid and Fighter) to advocate for short rests and help enabling them.
Monk 2 > Ranger 2 > Monk 5 > (Ranger 4) > Monk 7 (so either 7/3 for Evasion or 6/4 for feat and one more spell slot)...
Then either more Ranger (for class features and 2nd/3rd level spells but Extra Attack is redundant) or simply more Monk.
Idea behind leveling is...
- Your character will be a Monk at core, and you lose little by starting Monk over Ranger (one skill?).
- You want ki early because Dodge as bonus action is great for survivval...
- Then you want Hunter's Mark and Zephyr's Strike as early as possible, first one for fights when dealing damage is important, second one because it's near guaranteed evasion against melee attacks (especially when considering Monk mobility and possibly a Longstrider from Druid).
- Now you can get to being a true Monk (Extra Attack, Stunning Strike) and get the utility spells for when you are out of spell slots or simply concentrating instead on Darkness/Silence is better tactic for a fight.
- Between Evasion and feat+spells it's honestly a tough choice, both are good, so I'd say "just follow your guts once you got there".


Thanks for the replies everyone and sorry to open this back up. I ended up going Monk 2/Ranger 1 and I'll likely continue in Monk until 6, then put the last few levels into Ranger, since we're likely ending around level 10/11, so I'll be able to grab the Ranger ASI and then maybe evasion from Monk if we hit 11.

My question now is that I kind of want to do something fun with my Monk ASI. I was originally going to go mobile or just up my wis/dex, but though those are effective, it felt a little boring to me. For now I've been batting around the idea of getting Ritual Caster: Wizard. Probably grabbing the Find Familiar ritual (I'm thinking bat for flavor) and maybe alarm or identify or something. No one in the party has arcane ritual casting (druid is the only one with rituals), so I figured it would be a good use of any ritual scrolls we might happen across.

Are there any other good, flavorful choices I could grab as a Shadow Monk/Gloomstalker? I pretty much went full bore into this dark delving anime ninja caster with this.
Ooops, I missed that. Well, good!

I think from the start of my post you'll feel your gut for Ritual Caster: Wizard is justified. ^^
As for other flavorful choices for your character (although I think staying dual-class is probably the best for you since no visibility on end-game level)...
- Illusionist Wizard? Depending on how much you already rely on illusions. The level 2 "sound and image in single cast" is very helpful, and even with just one level you'd get your Find Familiar another way, along with other useful spells for a spy (Comprehend Language, Unseen Servant, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Shield, Sleep etc).
Note that I would have heavily suggested Bard (Expertise, Bardic Inspiration and some illusion/infiltration spells) or Sorcerer (Subtle cast) but you are missing the CHA, and again since you don't know where you'll stop it's not worth bumping stat.
- Trickery Cleric: one level would be mainly for fluff (you have enough concentration spells for Bless and such to be slippable) unless you want to tag-team infiltration with a pal (in which case it's already golden). 2nd level follows the same logic: if you already use concentration spells every fight and don't see any use for this ability outside combat, pass. Otherwise, great. 3rd level brings Mirror Image which, for you, would be an awesome defensive buff, but it's not snealky to say the least. ^^ Overall a decent choice for mix of fluff and abilities but definitely not the best mechanically unless you feel inspired with Duplicity.
- Knowledge Cleric: if you see your character as a master of spying and infiltration, then clearly Knowledge's level 2 ability is for you. You never know when you may need a peculiar check (especially when tools are involved).
- Darkness Cleric: if your DM allows Revised Ranger he may allow this extremely "official homebrew" one. Note it's more for the fluff than for mechanics: abilities are good but your bonus action is croweded already.
- Fighter: always a solid one, especially Battlemaster (Precision, Trip) or Eldricht Knight (Shield, Find Familiar).
- Rogue: always a great one: Cunning Action seems redundant with Monk's Dash/Disengage but it's not: not only does it spare Ki on those ones, it also brings Hide as bonus action. Additionally, either Assassin (more damage in ambush), Scout ("disengage move as a reaction", Arcane Trickster (invisible Mage Hand! Find Familiar!) or Swashbuckler ("Mobile without bonus speed") all provide great benefits while fitting thematically.

TL;DR: in your place, I'd either stay dual-class OR dip/tri-class into Rogue up to. Other options can be nice but are much more tradeoffs compared to just bumping Ranger or Monk (except the Illusionist Wizard way if you really like illusions).

[CapnZapp]

The important thing to realize is that 5E doesn't really support the true dual-classed character.

Why? Because it's almost always better to first take a truck load of levels of one class, before you switch over to the other class.

The idea where you already from the start feel like a 50%-50% character simply doesn't give good results in this edition.

The best results are gotten when you consider yourself as belonging to one class, and then using the other class' levels to supplement that concept. For instance, eventually all martial classes stands to benefit from taking two or four Fighter levels. That happens so late it really doesn't mean you're a dual-classed Fighter. It only means that most high levels of most classes are anemic compared to what the first few levels of most classes can give you, and that the only question is how well those abilities work together with what you already have.

The easy solution: play a Monk as one character, possibly multiclassing as Fighter when you feel the Monk class runs out of steam... and play a Ranger as another character (and definitely multiclass as Fighter, the sooner the better).

Any real (well-working) multiclassing in this edition is what happens inside a class. Best example I can give you: the Eldritch Knight subclass of Fighter.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

- Illusionist Wizard? Depending on how much you already rely on illusions. The level 2 "sound and image in single cast" is very helpful, and even with just one level you'd get your Find Familiar another way, along with other useful spells for a spy (Comprehend Language, Unseen Servant, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Shield, Sleep etc).

Hmmmm, this is an interesting idea. I could definitely forego the 4th level of Ranger I was looking at to grab Wizard instead. This is the first time I've had an array of stats that allowed for weird multiclassing while still being effective.

I was looking at rogue in the beginning, but since I'm a Goblin, I already have a lot of the rogue kit asides from sneak attack and dash (which I can do with ki if needed) so I decided against it. If I did grab it, other would probably only be for 1 level for the expertise.

I might just stick with the dual class suggestion and go with Ritual Caster, though. I like the illusionist idea, but in order to get stuff nice and early, I'd have to halt my progression in Monk and Ranger even more. The most feasible place for me to take that extra level would be 10 or 11, which would essentially be my capstone for just a couple of sessions.

Thanks again for the suggestions everyone!