Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[Kaptin Keen]

I was looking through my steam library, and I stumbled upon Sword of the Stars: The Pit - which I never quite managed to complete. And to my surprise, I found I now have two separate DLC's for it, that apparently found their way to me free! Yay =)

Having been keyed onto rogue-likes, it got me thinking. Different stuff, just scattered. Like, should I buy the ADOM graphics thing on Steam, should I maybe finish the expansion for Darkest Dungeon I bought but never really played, and so on.

It also occurred to me that ... there isn't a thread here for this genre. Not to my knowledge at least.

So what are your favourite rogue likes, what have you played, what would you recommened?

Personally, I find ADOM to be the greatest I've found. I've played others and liked them less - Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, for instance.

There are newer games out there I never dared try. Duskers, for instance. And I keep waiting for Caves of Cud to complete, because I never do early access. Also, Super Giant have Hades in EA, which might also be cool - their other games are.

[Rynjin]

Been playing a lot of Slay the Spire lately. It's a deck builder card game rogue-like that has a lot of variety in play among the three classes. It's also technically in Early Access I think, but it's feature complete; I'm not sure why it hasn't gone to full release yet.

[Kaptin Keen]

I've watched OddOne play it. It looks like a lot of fun - but it also looks like a deck building game, which requires a dedication to fiddling with building decks, obviously. I played Hearthstone for a good long while, and the thing I never liked about it was the deckbuilding. But maybe that was because it was either grind, or buy packs.

[Anteros]

It is a deck building game, but you get new cards every play through. There's no grind or pack buying.

[NRSASD]

FTL is a thoroughly awesome roguelike, for many, many reasons. But there's one I like even better: Renowned Explorers. It's got a lot of heart and humor, but more impressive is it's combat system. You can spec out your team to be pacifists and pacifist so hard you can befriend rampaging gorillas, mummies, and cultists. Very fun game, definitely worth a look if you like roguelikes.

[Rynjin]

I've watched OddOne play it. It looks like a lot of fun - but it also looks like a deck building game, which requires a dedication to fiddling with building decks, obviously. I played Hearthstone for a good long while, and the thing I never liked about it was the deckbuilding. But maybe that was because it was either grind, or buy packs.

You misunderstand a bit the difference between a T/CCG like Hearthstone or Magic and a deck builder. Deck builders are "build as you go" games where all the cards are in the game and you gradually add cards to your deck as the game goes on. More Dominion than Hearthstone

[Kaptin Keen]

It is a deck building game, but you get new cards every play through. There's no grind or pack buying.

But there's still deck building. I dislike deckbuilding for it's own sake. Grinding and pack buying, where present, just adds to it.


You misunderstand a bit the difference between a T/CCG like Hearthstone or Magic and a deck builder.

I do not.

[OutOfThyme]

Mmmm,love me some Slay the Spire. Great game overall, and I like how trying to force an archetype on higher Ascensions will basically get you slaughtered. Having to pick and choose your cards and come up with something that'll beat the big encounters in each Act is super rewarding.

I've also been playing some Dead Cells on my Switch, and it's a lot of fun. Combat is incredibly smooth and rewarding, but I'm kind of bad at the game. I tend to go for faster weapons because that means I can dodge roll out of the way of things easier.

[Kaptin Keen]

Mmmm,love me some Slay the Spire. Great game overall, and I like how trying to force an archetype on higher Ascensions will basically get you slaughtered. Having to pick and choose your cards and come up with something that'll beat the big encounters in each Act is super rewarding.

I've also been playing some Dead Cells on my Switch, and it's a lot of fun. Combat is incredibly smooth and rewarding, but I'm kind of bad at the game. I tend to go for faster weapons because that means I can dodge roll out of the way of things easier.

I've been waiting for animations to be introduced in Slay the Spire. Don't know if that's even on the drawing board, I just feel they should be there - like they are in Darkest Dungeon.

Dodging in games - even with generous cues like in Stories or Omensight - simply doesn't work for me. It's not that I'm too slow, I just can't make out the cues with everything else that's going on on-screen.

[Corlindale]

Dungeons of Dredmor got me into the genre and I still have fond memories of it, but my undisputed favourite has to be Tales of Maj'Eyal (https://te4.org/) (aka TOME). It's honestly a candidate for my Game of All Time in any genre - it's just brilliantly designed in so many ways.

One of my favourite things about it is the sheer diversity of classes. Some are your standard fantasy fare - Archer, Berserker, Rogue, etc. Even those can be very fun, but some of the classes you get to unlock later are just really creative both conceptually and mechanically.

It also streamlines many of the things that can get annoying in some other rogue-likes. Like inventory management - in TOME you get a 'Transmutation Chest' very early on which automatically collects every piece of loot you touch. Every time you leave an area, you get a pop-up showing all the stuff you've collected there, and you can pick what you want to keep/equip. Everything else is automatically turned into gold. That's sooo much better than the pain of inventory management in Dredmor.

Also no need to manage consumables, thanks to the cooldown-based inscription system, and no need to remember re-casting buffs that get dispelled, since you can easily set things to autocast under certain conditions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Been playing Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup lately. Been a lot of fun.

[Cespenar]

Maybe kinder people than me would care to elucidate these, but I'll just dump some must-play titles that haven't been mentioned and scoot.

Into the Breach
Crypt of the Necrodancer
Nuclear Throne
Binding of Isaac
Spelunky
DoomRL
Nethack

And a few more recent-ish, shooty, good but not great ones:

Synthetik
Wizard of Legend
Enter the Gungeon

But honestly, ADOM is my immovable favorite as well, even if I don't play it anymore.

[Cikomyr]

I always loved me some Angband. I wished there was a mobile version; id waste so much time on that.

Best games are those where you become so powerful you play on automatic mode for 10 levels, and then get 1-shotted by a Boss Darkness Dragon that struct out of nowhere.

Man, was i pissed.

[TaRix]

I still can't beat the last guy in Dead Cells, and that's on the lowest difficulty setting.

[Man_Over_Game]

FTL is a thoroughly awesome roguelike, for many, many reasons. But there's one I like even better: Renowned Explorers. It's got a lot of heart and humor, but more impressive is it's combat system. You can spec out your team to be pacifists and pacifist so hard you can befriend rampaging gorillas, mummies, and cultists. Very fun game, definitely worth a look if you like roguelikes.

I played the hell out of Faster Than Light. Almost got all the expansion ships.

I'll have to check out your recommendation, though.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'm a fan of FTL, even if I never was good enough to unlock most of the ships. The mods for it are quite good as well.

[Kaptin Keen]

I'm a fan of FTL, even if I never was good enough to unlock most of the ships. The mods for it are quite good as well.

FTL is utterly brilliant. Which mods did you enjoy ... actually, strike that: If you had to chose on mod (to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them), which one would it be?

[Anteros]

Dungeons of Dredmor got me into the genre and I still have fond memories of it, but my undisputed favourite has to be Tales of Maj'Eyal (https://te4.org/) (aka TOME). It's honestly a candidate for my Game of All Time in any genre - it's just brilliantly designed in so many ways.

One of my favourite things about it is the sheer diversity of classes. Some are your standard fantasy fare - Archer, Berserker, Rogue, etc. Even those can be very fun, but some of the classes you get to unlock later are just really creative both conceptually and mechanically.

It also streamlines many of the things that can get annoying in some other rogue-likes. Like inventory management - in TOME you get a 'Transmutation Chest' very early on which automatically collects every piece of loot you touch. Every time you leave an area, you get a pop-up showing all the stuff you've collected there, and you can pick what you want to keep/equip. Everything else is automatically turned into gold. That's sooo much better than the pain of inventory management in Dredmor.

Also no need to manage consumables, thanks to the cooldown-based inscription system, and no need to remember re-casting buffs that get dispelled, since you can easily set things to autocast under certain conditions.

ToMe is amazing, but I lost my original save with everything unlocked, and I'm not willing to grind all those unlocks again.

[Caelestion]

I always loved me some Angband. I wished there was a mobile version; id waste so much time on that.

Me too! I first encountered it at school, over 20 years ago. :smallsmile:

[OutOfThyme]

I've been waiting for animations to be introduced in Slay the Spire. Don't know if that's even on the drawing board, I just feel they should be there - like they are in Darkest Dungeon.I know they've put animations in for a lot of the enemies. I'm not sure if they're planning to animate every card effect, but that's a bigger undertaking than animating every enemy.


I still can't beat the last guy in Dead Cells, and that's on the lowest difficulty setting.

It's a hard fight for sure. I cheesed it with a Tactics trap build and Ice Bow. Honestly, Ice Bow/Ice Blast(?) are game changers because of how much of the game is reliant on mobility. Being able to freeze or slow enemies down changes everything.

I'm personally stuck on Hard, since I can't make it to the first boss without getting obliterated in either Ramparts or Toxic Sewers. Took me about 25 hours of playing to get good enough at the game to beat the first boss, according to my Switch, and I've spent the rest hitting my head against a wall.

[Anteros]

Most of the cards in STS do have animations. I think it's in a good place right now where it feels good to play. The animations give playing your cards some weight but don't slow down the game.

[Maethirion]

Slay the Spire and Renowned Explorers are two of my go to games when I've got less than an hour for gaming time. Both are easily digestible and just a heap of fun.

STS I'm playing on about asc. 10 on all three characters and it's a good challenge without feeling ridiculous. I'm just really impressed with their game balance in general.

[OutOfThyme]

Slay the Spire and Renowned Explorers are two of my go to games when I've got less than an hour for gaming time. Both are easily digestible and just a heap of fun.

STS I'm playing on about asc. 10 on all three characters and it's a good challenge without feeling ridiculous. I'm just really impressed with their game balance in general.

I find that Ascension works mostly all the way up to A20. Having to fight an extra boss means you can get screwed pretty heavily. I usually play A19 or A15 for that reason. I've never even gone for an A20 Act 4 playthrough because of how certifiably insane two Act 3 bosses is.

[Maethirion]

I find that Ascension works mostly all the way up to A20. Having to fight an extra boss means you can get screwed pretty heavily. I usually play A19 or A15 for that reason. I've never even gone for an A20 Act 4 playthrough because of how certifiably insane two Act 3 bosses is.

I've actually not reached A20 yet on any of them - highest is sitting at 15. that sounds absolutely brutal and I wouldn't have a clue where to even start.

[OutOfThyme]

I've actually not reached A20 yet on any of them - highest is sitting at 15. that sounds absolutely brutal and I wouldn't have a clue where to even start.

It is. The big problem is that you generally build decks around one type of Act 3 boss - a Power-heavy deck will falter against Awakened One without serious scaling, for example. Having two bosses means you now have to prepare for the next fight without knowing what it is. One option is to go with something utterly cheesy like a Corruption+Dead Branch deck on the Ironclad, or to have a very solid deck.

I have had some success with the Defect using a Frost/Dark build with some focus generators - if such options even come up. It's really easy to turtle down with a solid frost deck and to let your Dark orb gather a ton of damage (or you can use Recursion to send it to the back of your orb stack). Glacier's one of the best cards in the game because of how awesome of a defense it provides.

[factotum]

I'm not actually a big fan of this genre as a whole, because the mechanics are generally based too much on random chance and forcing you to play the game multiple times to get through. Doesn't matter how much skill and knowledge of the game you have, it's possible for sheer bad luck to kill you or render it unlikely you can defeat the game. I have played NetHack, ADOM, Dungeons of Dredmor and FTL, and enjoyed them for a little while, but the frustration usually overwhelms the fun after a time.

[Rodin]

I still can't beat the last guy in Dead Cells, and that's on the lowest difficulty setting.

I would keep an eye out for the patch. A big reason the final boss of Dead Cells is so difficult is that he scales linearly with the player's stats. This wouldn't be a huge deal, except for one problem; the players stats don't scale linearly. HP gain decreases with each level up, and after a certain point the enemies are gaining more damage than you are gaining HP. This means that taking scrolls that don't increase your damage can be actively bad for you, a mechanic that is not described anywhere in game. For regular enemies, you can keep up by just focusing on your damage. They can't hurt you if you're one-shotting them, after all. In comes the final boss: he is immune to high damage. Any hit that does more than 4% of his HP is reduced to that amount. In other words, increasing your damage doesn't help, and increasing your HP makes him hit harder. This is why current advice is to stop leveling up after hitting a certain ratio of scrolls (I believe it's 8 Brutality, 7 Tactics, 13 Survival), as that's the most efficient stat ratio, and also to pick up multi-hitting weapons to bypass the 4% damage resist.

At least, until the patch. Because the developers are awesome and have a huge level of involvement with the community, they've heard our pain and are rolling out a massive balance patch soon. It removes the daft level scaling mechanic entirely and re-balances the entire game around its absence. They've also eased the damage resist of bosses, making it more feasible for heavy-hitting weapons to get in some good blows on them. This means it's finally possible to gain an advantage by outleveling the content and picking up stronger weapons. From what I hear it's also made 3 and 4 cell difficulty a lot harder, but that's at a level I never expect to play anyway.

The patch is also adding a load of new content like a custom game mode, new abilities for elites, re-balancing a bunch of the crappier weapons, etc. It just entered beta a few days ago, so it should be released some time in the next few weeks.

[Anteros]

I find that Ascension works mostly all the way up to A20. Having to fight an extra boss means you can get screwed pretty heavily. I usually play A19 or A15 for that reason. I've never even gone for an A20 Act 4 playthrough because of how certifiably insane two Act 3 bosses is.

Really? I find that by this point my deck is either able to handle anything or doomed to failure. I usually either die to the first boss or breeze through everything. Sure some decks get hard countered by certain bosses, but plenty of others don't.

My problem is usually making it to this point since I tend to play greedy...which may explain the difference in our experiences now that I think about it.

[Eldan]

Speaking of on your phone, ages ago when I was in high school, where was a minimalist hack of Rogue available on Ti-92 calculators. I spent so many boring lessons on that.

[OutOfThyme]

Really? I find that by this point my deck is either able to handle anything or doomed to failure. I usually either die to the first boss or breeze through everything. Sure some decks get hard countered by certain bosses, but plenty of others don't.

My problem is usually making it to this point since I tend to play greedy...which may explain the difference in our experiences now that I think about it.I like playing a lot of cards, so Time Eater tends to screw me over fairly readily. If I can beat Time Eater as the first boss on A20, then the others are usually fairly trivial. If I get D&D or Awakened One, then I have to hope to not get Time Eater.

[Cespenar]

Speaking of on your phone, ages ago when I was in high school, where was a minimalist hack of Rogue available on Ti-92 calculators. I spent so many boring lessons on that.

Huh. I wish my school didn't use the boring FX-82MS type and allowed a programmable one instead back then. Our way of making do was just rolling competing ran(20)s ad infinitum.

[Hunter Noventa]

FTL is utterly brilliant. Which mods did you enjoy ... actually, strike that: If you had to chose on mod (to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them), which one would it be?

Probably Captain's Edition, it adds so many more weapons and events to choose from. I like it alongside any of the 'infinite' mods that let you keep going as long as you like.

[Anteros]

I like playing a lot of cards, so Time Eater tends to screw me over fairly readily. If I can beat Time Eater as the first boss on A20, then the others are usually fairly trivial. If I get D&D or Awakened One, then I have to hope to not get Time Eater.

Oh yeah, I fall into that trap a lot too. It sucks because those are my favorite decks as well, but they're just too dependent on not fighting that particular boss to not get screwed. It seems like every time I indulge myself and build that kind of deck I get that boss. :smallbiggrin:

[Morvram]

I highly recommend Caves of Qud. It's inspired by Gamma World, taking place in a far future after the fall of an advanced civilization, a world steeped in radiation, sentient plants, monastic orders made up of gun turrets, and lots and lots of salt. The combination of dungeon crawling and open-world exploration is excellent in my opinion, character building and development is full of weird and interesting possibilities because of some of the weirder mutations. There are also weekly updates, so there's some technical instability in that your save files will occasionally get invalidated by an update, but individual games usually don't last long so this may not be an obstacle.

[Kaptin Keen]

Probably Captain's Edition, it adds so many more weapons and events to choose from. I like it alongside any of the 'infinite' mods that let you keep going as long as you like.

As I thought. I'll get that eventually. I reach a certain fatigue with FTL. It's one of my favourite games ever, but I've only won three times. So I suppose my lack of ability to git gud at it annoys me, because I've played it so much. It's less annoying when I'm not really making an effort. Like, Stellaris. I'm awful at it, but I don't really care or want to improve.

[Silfir]

I'm not actually a big fan of this genre as a whole, because the mechanics are generally based too much on random chance and forcing you to play the game multiple times to get through. Doesn't matter how much skill and knowledge of the game you have, it's possible for sheer bad luck to kill you or render it unlikely you can defeat the game. I have played NetHack, ADOM, Dungeons of Dredmor and FTL, and enjoyed them for a little while, but the frustration usually overwhelms the fun after a time.

I don't know much about Nethack or Dungeons of Dredmor, but you're lumping in ADOM and FTL with them, and those games I do know. I can tell you that they can be won consistently by a skilled enough player. Even on FTL hard difficulty win streaks as high as 80 have been recorded, and skilled players seem to agree that a consistent winrate with perfect play should be somewhere between 93-99 %. That's on Hard, the difficulty designed to challenge experienced players. On Normal difficulty, the winrate is basically 100%.

In ADOM, the only obstacle to winning is dying in the early game - so as long as you make it to about character level 6 or so, the odds of winning with perfect play are essentially 100%. The game allows you to prepare for dangerous locations for as long as you need to.

What commonly happens - even with well-designed roguelikes - is that players reach a certain level of experience and game understanding, find themselves regularly failing and only doing well with RNG assistance, and come to the conclusion that RNG assistance is required for beating the game - because that's what's anecdotally true to them. What's actually happening is that they are still making mistakes - sometimes a lot of them - but simply aren't aware of their mistakes. In ADOM, it's very easy to consistently do unnecessarily dangerous things and be entirely unaware of how dangerous they are. In FTL, your resources are strictly limited, which can result in even tiny mistakes - inefficiencies - snowballing into larger disadvantages.

There is a huge mental component to roguelike playing skill. As soon as you start blaming the RNG for your loss, you've essentially gated yourself off from getting better at the game.

This is not to say that there aren't roguelikes (or games advertised as roguelikes) that are poorly designed and require you to get lucky in order to beat them. It's just that ADOM and FTL very definitely don't belong on that list.

[Kaptin Keen]

In ADOM, the only obstacle to winning is dying in the early game - so as long as you make it to about character level 6 or so, the odds of winning with perfect play are essentially 100%.

So long as it requires perfect play, it ceases to be a game, and becomes instead something else. A riddle, or a job.

Age of Decadence is an example. You have to play the game to complete a build. If your build isn't planned out from the start, if you ever chose a skill out of curiosity, or at random, or because you met a specific skill challenge you want to beat - you will be unable to beat the game. You can complete it, sure, but not win.

So in ADOM, I've beat the pyramid, and passed the dwarf caves, but I can't get any further than that - because the game demands an investment from me that I'm unwilling to pay.

I've beat plenty of games - but only if they're slightly more flexible in their demands.

Age of Decadence is an outstanding game, btw. Maybe .. not really roguelike? But really good.

[Silfir]

So long as it requires perfect play, it ceases to be a game, and becomes instead something else. A riddle, or a job.

So in ADOM, I've beat the pyramid, and passed the dwarf caves, but I can't get any further than that - because the game demands an investment from me that I'm unwilling to pay.

What are you talking about? ADOM doesn't require perfect play. Not even remotely. It's not based on limited resources. All you need to do to win is not make a mistake that kills you. Which is difficult, no question - but probably not nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be.

[factotum]

so as long as you make it to about character level 6 or so, the odds of winning with perfect play are essentially 100%.

What are you talking about? ADOM doesn't require perfect play.

There's a slight contradiction in your statements here...

[Silfir]

There's a slight contradiction in your statements here...

Yeah, I messed up in my first post. I was just continuing on from writing about FTL, where perfect play, or nigh-perfect play, is important, since it's based on limited resources. In ADOM, "perfect play" just means "if you don't make a mistake with deadly consequences". Since it doesn't restrict you from replacing resources lost due to inefficient play, you can always win a game of ADOM as long as you aren't dead, or stuck in a situation in which you will inevitably die.

[Kaptin Keen]

Yeah, I messed up in my first post. I was just continuing on from writing about FTL, where perfect play, or nigh-perfect play, is important, since it's based on limited resources. In ADOM, "perfect play" just means "if you don't make a mistake with deadly consequences". Since it doesn't restrict you from replacing resources lost due to inefficient play, you can always win a game of ADOM as long as you aren't dead, or stuck in a situation in which you will inevitably die.

There are no levels in FTL. Your quote is:


so as long as you make it to about character level 6 or so, the odds of winning with perfect play are essentially 100%

But yes, you're right, if you don't die in a roguelike, you can win. That .. pretty much goes without saying.

I think I get you, anyways: In FTL, you sometimes simply don't have a chance. You never got the right events, or stuff, or whatever - simply due to RNG. And that's at least somewhat different in ADOM: In ADOM, you can always .. well, retreat doesn't really cover it, but - most situations are recoverable, unless you over-extended. But the game still demands enormous amounts of meta-knowledge if you're to prevent over-extending.

[Winthur]

But yes, you're right, if you don't die in a roguelike, you can win. That .. pretty much goes without saying.

He doesn't mean "to win, don't die" in a blanket statement that says "lol just git gud", he means that there's always 16 ways to deal with an Ice Vortex spawning next to you in a tight corridor and most players die with 14 of them in their inventory because they don't bother identifying their items or try "saving their resources for later" at every turn, THEN blame the RNG. Silfir means that you shouldn't let shadows hit you endlessly in Griff's cemetery to drain your St until you can't lift any food cutting your life short or at least really, really annoying and hard to deal with. Entirely avoidable mistakes that players still make when there usually is a wealth of options to get out of their predicament, and it's not some sort of an obscure, Sierra-esque puzzle that if you fail to do at level 10, you get destroyed at level 30.

And even if you do any of those stupid things there's always a chance something bails you out. ADOM really is pretty fair all things considered, and I'm not a consistent winner. Silfir is absolutely correct that a good player can produce victories out of their ass while mashing Random race/class. Avatars / Chaos Gods might be more difficult, but ADOM, for the daunting amount of stuff it requires you to learn, is a consistent game.

Two of my most promising YASDs were both Dwarven Priests, one of whom died because my brother's jackass friend walked in and pulled the plug on the computer back when the game didn't autobackup, and the other one because I ended up getting cocky and ended up unable to maneuver myself out of endless teleportitis corruption that is entirely managable or even beneficial when I was already level 26, ready to go ToEF, and should have plenty of means of teleport control beforehand.

Around the time after ToEF, when you're performing "the final dive" (basically the endgame), there's surprisingly few things that will actually outright kill you, and you get the casino to abuse for pretty much infinite rewards.

I often scream expletives at my ADOM screen, but I'm a loud and impulsive person by admission and now the screaming became more of a toned down complaining into a nearby pillow in case something really frustrating happens. There's enough material out there to show that past the initial learning curve, ADOM really doesn't force perfect play. I guarantee you half the characters who ascended through the Chaos Gate out there have pushed down a direction arrow through a vault when feeling lazy, whether they were dwarven barbarians or human thieves.

[Kaptin Keen]

He doesn't mean "to win, don't die"

Isn't that what I said in the next sentence? I'm pretty sure it is.

[Silfir]

Yeah, I think Kaptin Keen got the gist of it. Avoiding death in ADOM to a large degree comes from experience - meta-knowledge, if you want to call it that. Part of it is that there are tons of non-obvious ways to deal with challenges using different systems, and ways to optimize your play. The other is knowing roughly how dangerous the creatures you encounter are. Aside from system mastery and meta-knowledge, you need the mental sharpness and endurance - and to some degree, straight up paranoia - to make few mistakes, and only mistakes in ways that you can recover from.

An example of that for me is the spell "Strength of Atlas", which expands your carrying capacity. As a fairly high level spellcaster, you can have it pretty much permanently active and pick up and carry pretty much anything you want. In the lategame, that means ridiculous amounts of wands, scrolls, potions, in addition to a variety of magic items, stacks upon stacks of ammunitions and missile weapons. But - if the duration of Strength of Atlas runs out and you don't remember to re-cast the spell in time, your carrying capacity will snap back to whatever it should be based on your strength, and your character can get crushed by the weight of their own inventory outright. I'm paranoid - and that means I never use Strength of Atlas to carry my stuff for any extended length of time. I just periodically get rid of stuff I don't need instead. This is more difficult, more annoying - but at least as far as I'm concerned it makes me less likely to die to my own stupidity.

Your worst enemy in a roguelike is yourself.

Anyway, ADOM's skill ceiling is just monstrous. It's very much like chess in that regard - opening theory, middlegame and endgame strategy, knowledge of tactical patterns, and so on. I can't fault anyone for preferring to climb other mountains.

It was important to me simply to point out that both ADOM and FTL are only marginally dependant on luck, which is demonstrated by how consistently they can be won by truly skilled players.



With that being said, I was a little confused about Kaptin Keen's "There are no levels in FTL" comment, but I think I know what he's getting at. I know FTL doesn't have character levels, I was talking about ADOM in the sentence he quoted - I used the term "perfect play" in that sentence differently than I used it in the preceding paragraph, and that's entirely my mistake.

To clarify: "Perfect play" in FTL means generally taking the most efficient, optimal choice. "Perfect play" in ADOM is simply impossible because it involves vastly more choices - and more complex choices - over a much longer playtime, so what I think of when I try to use the term in reference to ADOM is "play devoid of critical mistakes".

[DodgerH2O]

As a huge fan of FTL who has all but given up on my goal of unlocking all ships I have to say it's less RNG until you get to the last boss. I've gotten good enough to be able to survive until the final boss no matter what the RNG gives me, but I don't always end up with a viable ship to combat the endboss due to certain items not dropping. I'm not a top tier player but I've put the time in and it's still frustrating to get to the boss and die horribly due to lack of viable options.

Roguelikes in general reward systems mastery over luck, but they would be so much less interesting to me without the luck factor. Some games (turn based strategy) I feel do best with no RNG but for myself it's part of the "fun" (DF Style) of the Roguelike genre. Not everyone will enjoy this and that's ok.

[Kaptin Keen]

Ok! Ok ok ... stop everything!

If I can download the graphical version (non-ascii) for free - what am I paying for, if I go to Steam and buy it there?

[Silfir]

Which game are you talking about?

If this is about ADOM - the game itself is and will always be free; the Steam version has some extra bells and whistles, like non-roguelike game modes, weekly challenges, a character customizer and so on.

[Sian]

If this is about ADOM - the game itself is and will always be free; the Steam version has some extra bells and whistles, like non-roguelike game modes, weekly challenges, a character customizer and so on.

And a much faster update cycle ... IIRC, the free version is 3.0.6 (release 88) while the Steam version is 3.3.2 (release 100)

[Winthur]

And a much faster update cycle ... IIRC, the free version is 3.0.6 (release 88) while the Steam version is 3.3.2 (release 100)

1.1.1 was best anyway! How am I supposed to play without farming Big Room, easy To/Wi levelling with morgia, Strained strength training and Treasure Hunter? :smallyuk: :smalltongue:

no seriously Silfir please help me budget this my family of characters generated on 2nd July is dying

[Silfir]

1.1.1 was best anyway! How am I supposed to play without farming Big Room, easy To/Wi levelling with morgia, Strained strength training and Treasure Hunter? :smallyuk: :smalltongue:

no seriously Silfir please help me budget this my family of characters generated on 2nd July is dying

Hold the phone, they removed Treasure Hunter?

Try playing orc barbarians I suppose!

[Winthur]

Hold the phone, they removed Treasure Hunter?
...Huh. You know, I was told they nerfed it. They apparently didn't, now that I checked it, but I've been going down the Quick / PV talents ever since I didn't doublecheck it. :smallredface:


Try playing orc barbarians I suppose!
But dwarves have longer lifespans and nicer prices at Waldenbrook! I'd think Orc would be best if I was constantly dying pre-13, but I'm mostly just making insane mistakes around the mid-game, screwing up TotHK / AF / risking DH / over-extending. I only recently started playing again and the lack of all of those abusable mechanics feels like it popped me out of the rhythm.

The cry for help was more tongue-in-cheek than anything, but I'm definitely very dumb. :smalltongue:

[5crownik007]

Big fan of Dwarf Fortress. The more traditionally roguelike mode of DF is adventure mode, but fort mode is still roguelike enough to count.

I found a mobile version of Nethack that's on Android. It works just about as well as you could expect, being a keyboard oriented game on a keyboard-less platform.

[Anteros]

Honorable mention because it's not a classic rogue-like, but Subnautica hardcore mode is the most terrifying game in existence.

[Silfir]

...Huh. You know, I was told they nerfed it. They apparently didn't, now that I checked it, but I've been going down the Quick / PV talents ever since I didn't doublecheck it. :smallredface:

But dwarves have longer lifespans and nicer prices at Waldenbrook! I'd think Orc would be best if I was constantly dying pre-13, but I'm mostly just making insane mistakes around the mid-game, screwing up TotHK / AF / risking DH / over-extending. I only recently started playing again and the lack of all of those abusable mechanics feels like it popped me out of the rhythm.

The cry for help was more tongue-in-cheek than anything, but I'm definitely very dumb. :smalltongue:

My preference is for orcs on barbarians because of Find Weakness. (Dark elves get it too, but don't have the godly strength toughness.) Barbarian is a potent chassis even without support, so there's something to be said for choosing a long-lived race to avoid death by spooks. Maybe not elves though.

I'll freely admit the bulk of my playing time was spent in the 1.1.1 days, though from what I've seen the new midgame kind of makes up for the nerfs with the all new randomly placed dungeons. You may have to grind a little more (since you'll want potential strength/toughness potions and the like), but since you get to explore all-new dungeons doing so, it doesn't really feel like a chore. I honestly prefer doing that over hardcore farming herbs for forty minutes.

I don't doubt that you simply have to spend longer with a lower toughness now than you used to, which has shrunk the margin of error for naturally low toughness characters. I suppose there's nothing to say but: hang in there!

One of these days I really ought to revive my youtube channel and try my hand at a third playthrough.

[Cespenar]

1.1.1 was best anyway! How am I supposed to play without farming Big Room, easy To/Wi levelling with morgia, Strained strength training and Treasure Hunter? :smallyuk: :smalltongue:

no seriously Silfir please help me budget this my family of characters generated on 2nd July is dying

Wait, they removed morgia root?

Also, wizards and clerics for the win. Not trading blows with creatures is an enormous bonus, and the low-level survival can be pretty easy if you just pick the safer dungeons.

I also hope they didn't fix my preferred "hax", which is the Dwarven Halls familiar.

[Kaptin Keen]

Which game are you talking about?

If this is about ADOM - the game itself is and will always be free; the Steam version has some extra bells and whistles, like non-roguelike game modes, weekly challenges, a character customizer and so on.

Uh, yes - ADOM. I think that was originally in the post, then I decided to phrase it differently, and .. well you can see how that went =)

But I can play ADOM with graphics, yay! I've already died twice, trying out necromancy. Which seems like ... a bad idea. Generally speaking.

[Sian]

Wait, they removed morgia root?

No, but herb training have been constricted quite a bit (can no longer increase potentials), leaving you much less able to boost to silly levels

[Cespenar]

No, but herb training have been constricted quite a bit (can no longer increase potentials), leaving you much less able to boost to silly levels

Eh, kinda makes sense.

[Kaptin Keen]

I have now failed 25 times in ADOM. Frankly it might have been better if I never found out I could get the graphics version for free.

A lot of those attempts are mist elf mages and ratling priests. They feel like they have a lot going for them, but they always get into trouble they cannot get out of. Simply said, they do too little damage (the priests in general, and the mages when out of pp).

Then I made a troll beastfighter, and he trounced everything. Just mercilessly slaughtered everything he encountered, essentially without ever really taking any damage. He was a terror to behold. Then, in the first room after the Dwarf Town, he met a greater mimic. I hadn't taken damage for such a long time, I simply wasn't paying attention. Then I died =D

[Winthur]

A lot of those attempts are mist elf mages and ratling priests. They feel like they have a lot going for them, but they always get into trouble they cannot get out of. Simply said, they do too little damage (the priests in general, and the mages when out of pp).
Yeah you picked an elf race that pretty much deliberately exists to be a curiosity for veterans. The various restrictions it places on you are definitely not helpful for survival.

Roll Gray Elves (Neutral Elves, solid spellcasters and archers; it's generally really good to start as N for some fringe benefits), Dwarves (sturdy, better PV, pretty much guaranteed good starting armor) or Drakelings (solid stat spread and Acid Spit melts everything in its path - literally). You already know Trolls stomp the early game, but they also suffer from hunger issues, low Le and slow levelling. Orcs are a more moderate version of a hulking green brute, so they work decently as well. Good beginner classes are Archers, Priests (for easy BUC and decent spellcasting), Barbarians, Paladins and maybe actually Wizards.

[Sian]

I have now failed 25 times in ADOM. Frankly it might have been better if I never found out I could get the graphics version for free.

A lot of those attempts are mist elf mages and ratling priests. They feel like they have a lot going for them, but they always get into trouble they cannot get out of. Simply said, they do too little damage (the priests in general, and the mages when out of pp).

Then I made a troll beastfighter, and he trounced everything. Just mercilessly slaughtered everything he encountered, essentially without ever really taking any damage. He was a terror to behold. Then, in the first room after the Dwarf Town, he met a greater mimic. I hadn't taken damage for such a long time, I simply wasn't paying attention. Then I died =D

Mist Elf is the race for those feeling the game is to easy, as they, by quite the distance, have among the lowest Toughness scores, and an additional penalty on top of this (your lucky if you have 40 HP by level 10), while having a fairly restricted item availability due to their inability to handle Iron items, but for all that a sneeze can kill them well into the mid-game, they're all but immune to ageing penalties, and have some of the most competent spellcasting out of the box.

Ratlings are 'just' beefy elves without their flair for casting (I know, it's more complex than that, but at your point in experience it aren't all that relevant). They're strong at dex-based classes (Archers, thieves and duellists, specially wielding whips), and slightly harder to get instagibbed in the early game due to their higher Toughness, but other than that they don't really have any strong suits, but don't have any particularly weak ones either

Troll Beastfighter is kinda an odd one, since for all their superficial fit, pulls in different directions ... Trolls are strong and tough, but have an abyssal xp penalty (or rather, need more xp for each level, but pretty much the same), while Beastfighters (and Monks) might well be the classes that gain the most from getting as many levels under their belts as possible, as fast as possible, since their damage output critically depends on it, and specially for Beastfighters, handle like a wet noodle, if you even consider wielding anything

[Silfir]

Both priests and wizards are classes with excellent late game potential. They're tricky to play, because there are only a couple of monsters that they can reliably win against in melee at the early levels, unless you pick up some armor, or play a race that buffs them up a bit.

I'd definitely move away from mist elves for the time being; having so few hitpoints is a big downside when you're inevitably going to make beginner mistakes. As far as I'm aware ratlings don't get a lot of Mana, which is a bit of a worry if you're also stuck with leather armor. My vote is for dwarves or orcs. They don't get a ton of Mana either, but at least they wear chain mail. (Orcs also get an everburning torch, which can be a decent melee weapon, as long as you stop dual-wielding right away - even for classes that get Two-Weapon Combat it's a trap, without the skill it's suicidal).

[Sian]

For what it's worth, I have 4 wins under my belt in ADOM, Orc Paladin, Orc Priest, Gnome Weaponsmith and Ratling Dualist (precrowned with Black Whip, before its nerf)

[Kaptin Keen]

Troll Beastfighter is kinda an odd one, since for all their superficial fit, pulls in different directions ...

He got to level 10, and had +58 to hit, and did 1d6+26 damage. He was utterly beastly - fittingly enough. I just got careless. How he'd have fared late I cannot say, obviously. Someone really should write a mod for those like me who have no particular love for the roguelikeness, in isolation - I'd love an autosave =)

The mist elves were mostly because I saw they start with necromancy. So I tried some necromancers, and ... well, that's just bad. Then I tried some wizards, and that worked better, but ... yea, they're squishy.

Then I went with various iterations of a ratling with a bow, but archers seem to be throwing rocks almost all the time. So now I'm back to melee, in the current case a human paladin. And again, without anything to improve it, melee does too little damage. I had to eat, twice, during the Great Ant Battle of Level 2 PC.

[Bucky]

From what I recall of ADOM - I haven't played it in years - I'd describe it as "abusive". It doles out random, harsh punishments for a variety of common and necessary activities. It has a pile of ways to accidentally shoot yourself in the foot. It's sometimes outright deceptive about what constitutes a sufficient precaution.

But it also gives the player a bunch of ways to abuse the game back. Slowly boost a stat up to insane levels, swapping stats around and doing it again, generating huge amounts of treasure to sift through for the few items that matter. Secret recipes for OP stuff. Grinding in a hundred forms that I no longer have the patience for. Rendering important enemies helpless by knowing which effect to use.

It also has one of my all-time favorite roguelike items, the wand of door creation. A neat, well-designed and fair tactical option in a game designed for unfairness.

[Knaight]

This has been my genre for a while, though I tend to hit the lighter end of the spectrum, with a few notable exceptions. There's Spelunky, Nuclear Throne, and FTL on the more action game end, with ToME, ChessRogue, and Slay the Spire on the more turn based end. Various others filter in and out.

[Sian]

He got to level 10, and had +58 to hit, and did 1d6+26 damage. He was utterly beastly - fittingly enough. I just got careless. How he'd have fared late I cannot say, obviously. Someone really should write a mod for those like me who have no particular love for the roguelikeness, in isolation - I'd love an autosave =)

That's highly unlikely since the Creator have been very deliberate about not releasing the source code, but you could also just play the steam version, where there's the available variant of "reloadable games", and a range of other difficulty modifiers, including tuning monsters down (or up), drop rates down (or up), loading the dice or turning Hunger down (or off)


I had to eat, twice, during the Great Ant Battle of Level 2 PC.

unless you play something that is truely beastly in the early game, those ant's are a beef-gate that is to be dodged if you can get away with it ... in fact PC, might well be the second most difficult of the intended opening moves (after SMC and a direct dive through UC)

[Rynjin]

He got to level 10, and had +58 to hit, and did 1d6+26 damage. He was utterly beastly - fittingly enough. I just got careless. How he'd have fared late I cannot say, obviously. Someone really should write a mod for those like me who have no particular love for the roguelikeness, in isolation - I'd love an autosave =)

The classic way to "cheat" a Roguelike is just to back up your save in a different folder. Is that not possible with ADOM?

[Cespenar]

While there are many ways to abuse stuff in ADOM, I think the real survival comes from something else entirely: learning which paths/monsters/etc. are risky and avoiding them. It's a numbers game, really.

As an example, there are probably 6+ "starter" locations you could go with any new character. The small cave has that nifty blanket, there is the puppy quest, the bandit quest with 3000-something gp award, the outlaw town, etc. I just go to the Village Dungeon. Because it's easy and you are trying to survive while leveling up. Then? Leg it to the caverns of chaos, because it's easy and you need to go there anyway.

Same with monsters. When you get to know the monsters, there are quite a few that I retreat as soon as I see one about 5-6 squares away. Playing a melee beast, and I see (a very simple example) a claw bug looking thing in the distance? I don't risk it, just put any kind of stuff in your ranged slot and throw at it from afar. Or lure it to some traps. Playing a caster? Use any empty moment to regain mana. Check every door for traps, open every door diagonally, know which corpses to eat, etc.

Also, never press and hold a direction button. That's just death. There's a smart move button just for that (it was "w" some time ago).

[Winthur]

As an example, there are probably 6+ "starter" locations you could go with any new character. The small cave has that nifty blanket, there is the puppy quest, the bandit quest with 3000-something gp award, the outlaw town, etc. I just go to the Village Dungeon. Because it's easy and you are trying to survive while leveling up. Then? Leg it to the caverns of chaos, because it's easy and you need to go there anyway.

What helps is that you can mix and match starting locations. Most people first go SMC to generate a low level dungeon (once you leave, monsters stay generated as they were until you kill one) and then instantly leave, and therefore leave the possibility of UC-diving for later levels. Then you can go ID1-2 a few times to check your luck with book drops if you're a low-level spellcaster, then you can proceed to do either the Village Dungeon or the Druid Dungeon, and maybe while you're wandering all the time you just might get Kranach. And even if cute dog dies, a high level PC wandering into PC:6 has a decent chance of generating a surge of power in the guaranteed vault.

Another "starter" location worth considering is that spellcaster can cheese like 13-14 levels by simply farming claw bugs in Bug Temple once that's unlocked, although that's risky. But your level 1 wizard probably doesn't care about his life much anyway.

[Silfir]

The number 1 obstacle to getting ahead in ADOM is not the lack of a savegame feature. It's that players have to develop a submissive attitude to the game's uncompromising difficulty - you can never blame the game, because if you do, you stop trying to look for the faults in your own play.


Same with monsters. When you get to know the monsters, there are quite a few that I retreat as soon as I see one about 5-6 squares away. Playing a melee beast, and I see (a very simple example) a claw bug looking thing in the distance? I don't risk it, just put any kind of stuff in your ranged slot and throw at it from afar.

Or better yet - use your level 4 Slings weapon skill which you've already trained up in anticipation of situations like this.

All characters can learn to use missile weapons or thrown weapons, and all of them should. Something like 90% or more of the creatures you encounter don't have ranged attacks at all. It's free damage.

If you take full advantage of everything the game throws at you for free, you don't even have to bother with any of the extreme grinding that's possible to do. Just exploring all the dungeons once is enough. Probably more than enough. (Especially now that they've added a bunch of additional dungeons.)


So now I'm back to melee, in the current case a human paladin. And again, without anything to improve it, melee does too little damage. I had to eat, twice, during the Great Ant Battle of Level 2 PC.

Have you tried hitting F1-F7 for tactics options? If you struggle to deal enough damage to get past a high-PV creature, but are so impervious to damage that you can just tank monsters while you eat, it's the perfect situation to switch to Berserk.

The most broken thing that beginners fail to take advantage of might be the fact that you get Tactics bonuses on to-hit and damage from aggressive settings even if you use ranged weapons and can't even be hit back. (You can also switch to Coward mode on a per-turn basis, to drink potions or use First Aid and such.)

[Winthur]

submissive attitude
I pictured a dwarf saying "daddy please not too hard" before sipping each pool in Darkforge.

[Kaptin Keen]

The classic way to "cheat" a Roguelike is just to back up your save in a different folder. Is that not possible with ADOM?

Oh absolutely. I want an autosave because I forget to back up my save file, not because I don't know how to make one. It's the same with the reasons I die: Generally, I forget to be careful because I'm doing so well.


Have you tried hitting F1-F7 for tactics options?

Yes yes! I'm not a beginner, I've sacrificed literally dozens of characters on the ADOM altar. No, the real trouble is simply that I don't pay enough attention ... well, that and that I've only been past Dwarf Town twice, so I have barely any knowledge of what to expect there. Trees and ghosts ended the two tries I have had.

[Sian]

In which case i feel it might be a bit rich to blame the self-admitted difficult game (that gives you options to be easier if you want to) for not holding your hand and requesting triplicate signatures that you’re sure you want to do what you’re about to do

[Kaptin Keen]

In which case i feel it might be a bit rich to blame the self-admitted difficult game (that gives you options to be easier if you want to) for not holding your hand and requesting triplicate signatures that you’re sure you want to do what you’re about to do

How charming. Can you point out to me where I did that?

[Silfir]

How charming. Can you point out to me where I did that?

Blanket statements such as "melee does too little damage" can be interpreted unfavorably to mean that, I'd assume. I'll admit that "human paladin" is not high up on my list of characters I play. What do they start with, a long sword? I could imagine that if you roll fairly low strength and are only armed with a basic long sword you need quite a bit of buffing up before you can do a lot of damage to giant ant warriors. They are intended to be a roadblock - after all, saving the tiny girl's puppy was conceptualized as a challenging feat to accomplish.

I just tried it - human paladins start with 14 Strength and, indeed, a basic longsword. I would refrain from considering human paladins the yardstick by which to measure the strength of melee classes in general, when you can roll up orcish barbarians instead. The true strength of paladins as a starting class is the combination of high armor (8 PV minimum for human paladins) and the Healing skill.

[DataNinja]

I've been playing the heck out of FTL recently, ever since discovering access came with my gifted month of Nitro. Admittedly, I've still been playing on Easy, mostly because I want to unlock all the ships I can before my month runs out, but it's been fun. Though, all the extra Advanced Edition stuff nearly overwhelmed me the first time I tried playing with the Lanius ship, geez. :smalleek:

It definitely feels well balanced, although there are certainly events that you can run into (generally early on) that can end up hard-countering the build that you've been getting (my most recent example of that was when using the Rock A, running into an Engi event in the 2nd sector that locked my engines and shields, while it had two defense drones. Hadn't found any non-missile weapons yet, so I couldn't touch the thing, and it was just able to tear me apart before I could jump out. Ouch).

The nice thing, though, is that the later you get (as long as you know what you're doing), the more likely it is that it's going to be your own mistakes that kill you. I think that's definitely a design that helps reduce frustration. The randomness is still there, but if the randomness itself causes your death, you'll probably not have gotten very far.

[Kaptin Keen]

"melee does too little damage"

I'm pretty sure I also never said that!

I believe I said:


A lot of those attempts are mist elf mages and ratling priests. They feel like they have a lot going for them, but they always get into trouble they cannot get out of. Simply said, they do too little damage (the priests in general, and the mages when out of pp).

Which is not ... a blanket statement. It's a pretty specific statement on the priests and mages I've played.

And so the search goes on. When did I ever blame the game's self-admitted difficulty for not holding my hand. And I'd honestly like for Sian to answer for himself. No one else suddenly exploded for absolutely no reason.

[Kaptin Keen]

So I've decided I'm going to go through SMC at level 1. This is not turning out well for me. I believe another 6 or 7 characters have met their end in there thus far. I've found the exit twice - but decided to look around just a wee bit longer for the blanket. I think I can safely say, on results based analysis, that this is a bad idea. But I want the blanket, and I want to HMV shop.

I'm going through SMC, so help me Istaria! Osmond VIII, coming up.

[Anteros]

The number 1 obstacle to getting ahead in ADOM is not the lack of a savegame feature. It's that players have to develop a submissive attitude to the game's uncompromising difficulty - you can never blame the game, because if you do, you stop trying to look for the faults in your own play.


More realistically, the biggest obstacle to getting ahead in ADOM or other similar games is a willingness to beat your head against the wall until you learn all of the obscure mechanics that they don't explain, and to experience all of the "gotcha" moments where you couldn't have possibly predicted a situation so you'll know what to do the next time.

I enjoy them, and have played several of them to completion, but they're games that are far more reliant on game experience and learning patterns than intelligence or skill.

[Cespenar]

So I've decided I'm going to go through SMC at level 1. This is not turning out well for me. I believe another 6 or 7 characters have met their end in there thus far. I've found the exit twice - but decided to look around just a wee bit longer for the blanket. I think I can safely say, on results based analysis, that this is a bad idea. But I want the blanket, and I want to HMV shop.

I'm going through SMC, so help me Istaria! Osmond VIII, coming up.

The blanket is really, really overrated. Not to mention that you could probably get a character into Dwarftown easily in all that time combined.

[Kaptin Keen]

The blanket is really, really overrated. Not to mention that you could probably get a character into Dwarftown easily in all that time combined.

Agreed - absolutely. But see, I'm stubborn. And while the blanket is just a ... knick-knack, the HMV shop is frankly a little awesome. Still not indispencable, but pretty damn good. Also, the option, at least, for the ultra ending.

[Silfir]

More realistically, the biggest obstacle to getting ahead in ADOM or other similar games is a willingness to beat your head against the wall until you learn all of the obscure mechanics that they don't explain, and to experience all of the "gotcha" moments where you couldn't have possibly predicted a situation so you'll know what to do the next time.

I enjoy them, and have played several of them to completion, but they're games that are far more reliant on game experience and learning patterns than intelligence or skill.

Pattern recognition, experience, a good memory and persistence are skills, though. Those are exactly what's required to become a good chess player, for example.

Not sure where intelligence enters into it. Intelligent players are not necessarily good at ADOM, and being good at ADOM doesn't prove you're intelligent. Who ever claimed otherwise? (Certainly not chess players. Bobby Fischer was one of the best to ever play the game and a tremendous idiot in many ways. There is more than one type of intelligence.)

[Anteros]

Pattern recognition, experience, a good memory and persistence are skills, though. Those are exactly what's required to become a good chess player, for example.

Not sure where intelligence enters into it. Intelligent players are not necessarily good at ADOM, and being good at ADOM doesn't prove you're intelligent. Who ever claimed otherwise? (Certainly not chess players. Bobby Fischer was one of the best to ever play the game and a tremendous idiot in many ways. There is more than one type of intelligence.)

Chess is a bad example. While those things are all important in chess, the difference is that the rules of a chess game are clear from the start. The black player isn't going to suddenly state something like "haha, you stepped on the B3 square on the 23rd turn! You lose!" or "Now all my pawns can move sideways because you didn't shuffle your rook and your queen!" Or "Oh, you wanted to check-mate my King? It's a shame you didn't have the Trident of the Red Rooster equipped! You lose!" It's goofy.

While memory and game knowledge are important to master the game, they aren't required to play in the first place. It's theoretically possible for someone to play chess at a high level immediately after learning the rules. The game doesn't intentionally obscure vital information to artificially inflate its difficulty, then turn around to tout itself as challenging.
ADOM and Nethack are like chess, if the opponent could randomly introduce new pieces or reset the board whenever they want and claim victory.

[Rynjin]

Since everyone's talking about it so much (and it's been on my periphery for years), I picked up the free version of ADOM.

So far I've died twice fighting the minotaur in the first cave. Once because my Orc Beastfighter was not as tough as I thought he was, and once because my Drakeling Bard zapped herself with a wand, because apparently right-click does not cancel shots like most games.

Will report further progress.

[Silfir]

It's theoretically possible for someone to play chess at a high level immediately after learning the rules.

I suppose we might have different conceptions of what "at a high level" actually entails, but from where I'm standing this is a ludicrous statement. You probably have a better shot of beating ADOM after reading the manual than you have at beating even an intermediate chess player without a primer in opening principles, midgame strategy and some tactical and checkmating patterns. In both cases the odds are basically nil; you're supposed to keep learning as you make mistakes, lose, and try again.



I'm not sure what you're getting at anyway - of course there are differences between ADOM and chess with respect to complete vs. incomplete information (though like chess, an ADOM "game piece" will always have the same abilities every time); what I'm saying is the games require the same skills. (If anything, ADOM requires more skills, because handling incomplete information is a skill in and of itself.)

Anyway, like most disagreements this one has to do with inadequately defined terms. If you want to make a meaningful contribution, have a look at this statement you made:


they're games that are far more reliant on game experience and learning patterns than intelligence or skill.

Tell me what you mean by "skill", if game knowledge and pattern recognition don't count for whatever reason. Because as I understand this statement, at least for now, it seems to suggest chess doesn't require skill, which I have to assume is not your intent.

[Rynjin]

Well, Hakrash the Male Drakeling Fighter (I've just been mashing Fate for character gen) survived long enough to get a name at least. Getting a better feel for the game, made it to level 6. Died of starvation in the midst of fighting about a dozen bandits...was down to the last 3 when I keeled over.

[Kaptin Keen]

Well, Hakrash the Male Drakeling Fighter (I've just been mashing Fate for character gen) survived long enough to get a name at least. Getting a better feel for the game, made it to level 6. Died of starvation in the midst of fighting about a dozen bandits...was down to the last 3 when I keeled over.

I just did that too - I couldn't get out of combat, dammit! =)

I mean I could have hit f7 and tried to grab a snack while in combat - but I lost track of just how hungry I was. Amateur mistake =)

[Rynjin]

I just did that too - I couldn't get out of combat, dammit! =)

I mean I could have hit f7 and tried to grab a snack while in combat - but I lost track of just how hungry I was. Amateur mistake =)

I ate 2 rations during the combat; it was just a miss-fiesta on both sides and took forever.

[Cespenar]

Regarding the game's secrets, I believe that after a liberal number of hard-earned, "blind" deaths, a peek or three at the game's FAQ would widen one's game experience quite a bit, and help one enjoy it even more.

[Kaptin Keen]

Regarding the game's secrets, I believe that after a liberal number of hard-earned, "blind" deaths, a peek or three at the game's FAQ would widen one's game experience quite a bit, and help one enjoy it even more.

I know quite a few of the 'secrets' - but I never get far enough to find any of them. Maybe it's because I never, ever grind anything. The only type of character I ever feel reaches a point of actual strength is troll melee fighters, and unsurprisingly, they tend to meet their fate in the early midgame =)

[Winthur]

Maybe it's because I never, ever grind anything.
Well, I guess the only thing you might really want to grind is piety for (pre)crowning. Which you technically don't even have to do to beat the whole game, given that the Ultimate endings force you into so many alignment swaps that it's pretty much impossible to crown until the end game. They kinda nerfed grinding otherwise, as I mentioned.

I'd take a step back from Trolls to the more moderate races like Drakes, Orcs and Dwarves if you want to get into mid-game. Trolls definitely can beat the game (though it's not recommended to attempt an ultimate ending with them), but I think the main appeal of picking a Fighter is good starting gear and levelling up skills like Athletics, Dodge and Find Weakness somewhat fast, so I wouldn't actually skimp out on Learning and endure the excruciatingly slow trollish levelling speed.

If you want to play a cheatmode troll, however, roll a troll healer. Your starting gear sorta sucks, but it doesn't matter because you start with 30+ Strength and 25+ Toughness. Barring initial DV/PV issues, your self-healing is insane.

For bonus points, you can start with Candle and take the Healthy talent line.

[Kaptin Keen]

They kinda nerfed grinding otherwise, as I mentioned.

You did? I didn't notice =(

I don't really play trolls. I know they will get part of the way easily, but I also know they become dreadfully hard (for me at least) later on.

I really want to make something that has a tool for every challenge. That's the problem with trolls - they have one tool for all challenges, brute physical force to the face. I want enough healing to sustain myself, and enough damage (physical or magical) to kill stuff. I do best with priests, it seems, but their lack of damage output ends up killing me.

The solution would be to kill Keethrax, and get Frostbolt - but I can't kill him with a priest, because they deal no damage.

So ... now I've rolled another priest. Because I'm stubborn =)

Oh, btw. The swordsman. Is he worth trying to keep alive?

[Winthur]

The solution would be to kill Keethrax, and get Frostbolt - but I can't kill him with a priest, because they deal no damage.
Priests are basically Wizards with more emphasis on healing and piety-based mechanics and some spells having different names. Rain of Sorrow is basically Acid Ball with a different serial number.
I absolutely never had a problem with priest levelling, and consider them one of the most newb-friendly classes in terms of giving you midgame chances.
Spellbooks drop heavily for them, they have easy BUC identification, likely a ton of holy water from the start (I recall usually starting with 4 bottles of regular water and 1 holy water and being able to dip them together).
I ended up having solid melee with a regular spear+shield combo (best bang for your buck in terms of DV), whatever ranged weapon I could find, and, ofc, spells. I could even run PC sometimes.
Dwarven priests also start well-armored and regardless of what you do, you can go for the Tough Skin talent line to ensure you're not gonna die easily.
Also roll more Drakelings, mang, Acid Spit is just ridiculous.
Frankly you could go with Drakeling Monks. Good stats across the board, moderate spellcasting ability and bookdrops (akin to a Paladin, I believe?), hunger issues pretty much non-existent (which synergizes well with Acid Spit spam) and your only problem is that you can't get burdened/strained.


Oh, btw. The swordsman. Is he worth trying to keep alive?
Who?

[Kaptin Keen]

Spellbooks drop heavily for them

In all my many games - and this is god's honest truth - I've had one single damage spell book drop. I've had a few priests start with a damage spell, but I have only one single time ever seen a drop of a offensive spell. For a priest, that is. They drop all the time for other classes, non-casters too.


Who?

There's a swordsman in the secret goblin camp who swears loyalty to you, and tags along.

[Cespenar]

In all my many games - and this is god's honest truth - I've had one single damage spell book drop. I've had a few priests start with a damage spell, but I have only one single time ever seen a drop of a offensive spell. For a priest, that is. They drop all the time for other classes, non-casters too.

I remember reading that was intentional. Priests get more utility and healing spellbook drops, while wizards get a lot of damaging spellbook drops.

[Kaptin Keen]

I remember reading that was intentional. Priests get more utility and healing spellbook drops, while wizards get a lot of damaging spellbook drops.

Yes yes - I know .. it just doesn't match what Winthur was saying =)

[Silfir]

I have only one single time ever seen a drop of a offensive spell. For a priest, that is. They drop all the time for other classes, non-casters too.

Chalk that up to the flaws of anecdotal evidence-gathering - priests have much higher spellbook drop rates than non-casters, and they should definitely be seeing more offensive spellbook drops than a non-caster over time, even if it's not as many as wizards.

If you don't want to be hamstrung by spellbook drop luck, consider playing an elementalist.

[Kaptin Keen]

Chalk that up to the flaws of anecdotal evidence-gathering

Nopes. And please don't make assumptions. If you don't believe me, that's fine. But we're talking possibly hundreds of games. I have 50 (!!) games on my high score list since re-installing a few days ago.

Let me know if you want a screenshot of that. I usually don't bother - but just say the word.

So let me say again: I know for an absolute certainty, that in 50 games (not all of which has been priests, obviously), a single - one - offensive spell tome has dropped.

In my previous games, before re-downloading with the graphics hokus-pokus, I believe one, single, offensive spell tome dropped. That's a grand total of .... Two! In what might actually be something like 200 games or more.

And that's not counting drops for mages, of course, since they clearly get lots. Just other classes. And I've seen a good few for classes with zero casting ability - like troll barbarians, for instance.

[Silfir]

Is it possible you weren't trying to make a larger point and just venting about getting unlucky? If so I apologize and you have my commiserations.

[Kaptin Keen]

Is it possible you weren't trying to make a larger point and just venting about getting unlucky? If so I apologize and you have my commiserations.

Not even really venting - it's an observation. There are others like it. For instance, when I play humans, or hurthlings, or elves - there are basically no pools to be found, anywhere. When I play trolls or ratlings, they're common as muck. Altars seem weird too, though I can't see any sort of system to it: There are games when I've found none what so ever, and quite a few seem to have an alter in literally every dungeon. It feels like there's a reverse proportionality between what you need, and what you get. I've never found so many powerful weapons as when I play a monk, or a beastfighter - or a mage. Conversely, when I've played a paladin or fighter, I've had rather dull weapons.

None of these are absolutes, by any means. And among those observations, definitely there are statistical glitches that trick me, cases of faulty memory, bais and so on.

Apology not necessary. I felt like you were snapping at me, and I snapped back - I'm likely to 'respond in kind', which is terribly embarassing when I'm mistaken =)

Edit: Herbs - much more common when my guy doesn't have herbalism.

[Winthur]

They nerfed stairhopping, which was a technique where you could keep farming books between ID1 and ID2 without spending an in-game turn, because ascending/descending stairs apparently doesn't count as a turn. So you could spam < and > without ever getting hungry and there'd be a chance that a book spawns instantly inside.

As far as I understand, the Danger Level at which spellbooks are most likely to spawn is 1-2, so low ID levels should still be good for finding books if you are hardpressed for those.

That said, all I can say is counter with my own anecdote that my Priests always get a lot of spells. :smalltongue: How far do you get before dying?

[Kaptin Keen]

That said, all I can say is counter with my own anecdote that my Priests always get a lot of spells. :smalltongue:

As do mine. I can't tell you how many books of ... Darkness, Slow Poison, Cure Light Wounds, and so on, and so forth ... I've found. Just no offensive bang-bang.


How far do you get before dying?

That depends. But the pattern is simple enough: I reach a point at which my damage output is too low. Generally, physical damage. Characters with healing spells just don't cut it in melee - and casters eventually run out of mana, and then they die. And I have ranged skills trained on everyone obviously.

I've died at the last two levels of PC, died to Keethrax, died quite many times in SMC. Started CoC only twice, and reached Dwarf Town only on my troll beastfighter.

Oh, and I've died quite a few times at levels 1 or 2 or so, because of being too careless. Actually, a goblin rockthrower one-shot me in the Secret Camp once. Literally from max to zero with one stone. Bloody runt! =)

[Winthur]

As do mine. I can't tell you how many books of ... Darkness, Slow Poison, Cure Light Wounds, and so on, and so forth ... I've found.
Darkness is actually a pretty good spell to assist against some melee monsters because most monsters don't see in the darkness, giving you an advantage. An orcish priest takes this further, he will have a lot of innate strength and the ability to abuse Backstabbing when Darkness is on.




That depends. But the pattern is simple enough: I reach a point at which my damage output is too low. Generally, physical damage. Characters with healing spells just don't cut it in melee
All of my casters are well-trained in melee because I actually spend a lot of time in melee, mostly so that I don't run out of spell charges and because trained Spear is a great source of DV, which helps survivability tremendously. It takes longer to train that, but in general I find that all of my characters are well-rounded combatants. I don't even have a particularly grindy playstyle, and I don't take special care to max out weapon marks in the early game (that you're firmly pretty much never out of), and my characters can all generally fight. Choice switches to Berserk / Very Aggressive for high burst damage in a "kill them before they kill you" fashion helps, as well as an occasional tension room full of something weak, like rats or orcs.




I've died at the last two levels of PC, died to Keethrax, died quite many times in SMC. Started CoC only twice, and reached Dwarf Town only on my troll beastfighter.
Yeah, that sounds like you're dying around level 11-12 (accounting the Troll's extremely slow levelling rate in the case of Dwarftown). That could explain why you feel like you don't ever see any books - you simply aren't around much to see them.

Maybe pick more Dark Elves and Orcs for boons like Find Weakness?

[Silfir]

That depends. But the pattern is simple enough: I reach a point at which my damage output is too low. Generally, physical damage. Characters with healing spells just don't cut it in melee - and casters eventually run out of mana, and then they die. And I have ranged skills trained on everyone obviously.

I've died at the last two levels of PC, died to Keethrax, died quite many times in SMC. Started CoC only twice, and reached Dwarf Town only on my troll beastfighter.

Look at it another way - if you reach a point where your damage output is too low, then you've been pushing ahead too fast, and should have been doing something else, somewhere else. There are a number of different places where low level characters of all colors can thrive. The infinite dungeon, for example, is still a great place to get some experience and spellbooks even without abusing the stairs. You'll find damage spellbooks sooner or later.

The fight against Keethrax is frequently delayed even by experienced players because it's quite simply a tough fight, and there's no time limit on it.

All that being said, just using the best weapons I come across tends to be enough for me whenever I play spellcasters. I worry about defenses, particularly PV, far more than I worry about damage.

[Winthur]

All that being said, just using the best weapons I come across tends to be enough for me whenever I play spellcasters. I worry about defenses, particularly PV, far more than I worry about damage.

That, too - I make it a point to try and equip any and all weapons with unusually low weight (usually weight not divisible by 10), and failing to find any, I just pick up crude spears, as orcish spears usually come with a hefty boost to damage for a one-hander and can be farmed. I have very weird luck when it comes to finding halberds made of precious metals in SMC, too.
Really, I play melee Wizard quite a lot. There is enough trash mobs on every low level floor to just "push the arrow" every so often.
In 1.1.1, when Strained training was great, you could pretty much always find my spellcasters on the frontline. I even had a wizard with Big Punch at one point.

Oh, another suggestion - if you're having a hard time surviving in melee, look into Gnomes and Hurthlings for the free starting talent and push for a free Heir gift if you have 3 starter talents. Hurthling / Gnomish Fighters (great PV boost that will pretty much never break), Barbarians (excellent weapon), Thieves (turns them from absolutely crap hold-on-for-my-deal life to actually managable), Assassins (you start with great Dagger weapon skill already AND you get an adamantium dagger), Weaponsmiths (I believe the game always bumps your strength really high up to ensure you never start the game Burdened/Strained, so here's a way to "cheat" some Strength and also get a nifty weapon) and pretty much all of those will be hard or impossible to lose to some unfortunate event. Also, Necromancer heir gift is fairly nuts, but it's even more nuts if you manage to get Heir on a Mist Elf Necro - but then you're stuck with a Mist Elf, so it probably cancels out.

There's also the Bard's super OP gift of seven league boots that you're pretty much guaranteed to get as either small race.

And yeah, don't rush Keethrax. He's not really worth it that early; might even generate DD:7 and then leave, then come later. Keethrax can shrug off bolts, suck away your stats, his attacks may cause mild corruption, every animal on DD:7 spawns hostile even if you're a Druid (sucks if you find a cat) and he actually is dangerous enough to simply kill you.

It's also not unlikely that you are simply meeting massive bumps in difficulty on your usual routes. Hacking orcs to death is fairly easy on any Berserking character, but then you might run into a dark elven priestess or a dark orc in the UD, or a moderately experienced swordsman obliterates you. Or you let yourself get bursted down by a claw bug. You're trying to take on Keethrax and he actually has lots of HP.

[Kaptin Keen]

Whelp - I'm back in Dwarf Town. Dark Elf Archer, this time. Though frankly, Slinger would be a better name for it, the only plentiful ammunition seems to be rocks. Thank you, Goblin Fort.

So I found a book. On my archer. Which is surprising enough, but then obviously, my Literacy is 46, +1d6, with a max of ... 47. Thanks game. I even ate a Dark Sage, because ... you never know, right. Didn't help.

So I'm in Dwarf Town, and I decide ... what the hell, no time like the present, let's look at that book. I sit down, I read, it explodes, and destroys 75% of my inventory. So thank god I'd seen that coming, and save-scummed in advance. But anyways, this guy feels surprisingly strong. He has all the herbs, too, which is just like magic, only without the pesky mana pool.

Oh, and on top of that I ate a dog and a fairy, and now I have teleportitis and TP control, so that's immensely useful =)

[Corlindale]

All this discussion is making me think that I should give ADOM another try, I only just scratched the surface on my last attempt. It sounds like a very interesting game.

To those who are sometimes a bit frustrated by the randomness and obscurity of some classic roguelike mechanics, you might want to give Tales of Maj'Eyal a try. Though it is a complex game, it's unusually transparent with its information compared to others in the genre. You can always see the exact abilities of monsters and the powerful ones are clearly highlighted, there are no cursed items in the traditional sense (except for a few classes who can deliberately choose to curse their items to gain powers) and the game usually warns you with a pop-up if you are about to do something potentially dangerous. The default game mode also gives you a handful of lives instead of just one - so while you still can't afford to be totally reckless, one mistake won't end your run.

[Kaptin Keen]

You really should (try ADOM). It's free, for god's sake. Except increasingly I feel you should buy the paid version regardless. It seems to have all the stuff I want - including the option to turn off perma-death. I know, I'm a bad roguelike player =)

So. Dwarf Town (and yes, essentially I've kidnapped my own thread). I'm essentially flying blind now. From Dwarf Town, it's either the forest or the abandoned dwarf caves next. I've tried both before, and made it through the forest. Not so much with the abandoned caves. Holy crap the caves were a horror. I was a troll, after all. What can you do.

So the forest it will have to be. Maybe. Cause now I'm an elf, and an archer, and maybe the caves are less ..... daunting? The real difference is that there is experience and loot in the caves. I suppose the same is true if you try to chop down the forest, but ... meh.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Knaight]

Into the Breach was on sale, and given how much I liked FTL I figured I'd give it a shot.

I'm liking it. It's either significantly easier or just something I'm better at (and it being turn based makes the latter option a very serious contender), judging by winning game 7 or so, but there's a few mech squadrons that are analogous to weird ships I had a lot of trouble with, so it should hold up for a good long while. Plus there's the four islands option.

In short, I'd strongly recommend it.

[Kaptin Keen]

Into the Breach was on sale, and given how much I liked FTL I figured I'd give it a shot.

I'm liking it. It's either significantly easier or just something I'm better at (and it being turn based makes the latter option a very serious contender), judging by winning game 7 or so, but there's a few mech squadrons that are analogous to weird ships I had a lot of trouble with, so it should hold up for a good long while. Plus there's the four islands option.

In short, I'd strongly recommend it.

I'll second that - it's enormously good, although I never managed to finish it, and didn't sink quite as many hours into it as FTL. But it has the same sort of emerging, player driven narrative, and super solid tactical choices.

[Sian]

So. Dwarf Town (and yes, essentially I've kidnapped my own thread). I'm essentially flying blind now. From Dwarf Town, it's either the forest or the abandoned dwarf caves next. I've tried both before, and made it through the forest. Not so much with the abandoned caves. Holy crap the caves were a horror. I was a troll, after all. What can you do.

So the forest it will have to be. Maybe. Cause now I'm an elf, and an archer, and maybe the caves are less ..... daunting? The real difference is that there is experience and loot in the caves. I suppose the same is true if you try to chop down the forest, but ... meh.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

There’s our problem ... trees are by far the easier route, even if its more tedious. The usual strategy to get though it is to not attack anything and simply move as fast as possible to tje opposite corner while your tactics setting is on coward, the trees are quite placid unless you piss them off, and the few thats aggressive can be tun away from by simply ignoring them and moving on as soon as gaps appear

[Kaptin Keen]

There’s our problem ... trees are by far the easier route, even if its more tedious. The usual strategy to get though it is to not attack anything and simply move as fast as possible to tje opposite corner while your tactics setting is on coward, the trees are quite placid unless you piss them off, and the few thats aggressive can be tun away from by simply ignoring them and moving on as soon as gaps appear

I've been thinking of staying near the up-escalator, hoping to simply teleport to the down-ditto - wait until teleportitis kicks in. Problem is I obviously can't see that far. But I could go the other way. Sweet, delicious loot and xp =)

[Cespenar]

Go through the forest. But definitely remember Dwarven Halls when you get that sweet familiar summoning scroll as a reward from the dwarf lord.

[Kaptin Keen]

Go through the forest. But definitely remember Dwarven Halls when you get that sweet familiar summoning scroll as a reward from the dwarf lord.

Oh all right ...!

I tried the abandoned caverns, actually. There was a blue ancient wyrm. I can't do ancient wyms, period. It was like 'have 99% of your health bar in lightning damage!' and I was like 'nopes - I'm outta here!'

[Winthur]

Go through the forest. But definitely remember Dwarven Halls when you get that sweet familiar summoning scroll as a reward from the dwarf lord.

Wait, what?
I am quite positive Thrundarr always rewards you the same for whether you pass AF or DH. The only thing that an ?oFS does in relation to DH, I thought, was that DH:2, due to its inflated danger level, makes for a fantastic place to get yourself a high-level familiar.

As for AF, in 1.1.1 you could equip two shields and just hold an arrow because attempts at attacking would always lead to a message saying that you can't attack. Otherwise, I think you can try using a wand of digging or a pickaxe and simply dig your way around the forest. Otherwise, it's just an exercise in always carefully walking through everything and not hitting trees.

[Cespenar]

I was alluding to the danger level trick, yes. I didn't say he gives something different.

[Winthur]

I was alluding to the danger level trick, yes. I didn't say he gives something different.
My bad, I read the post wrong. :smallredface:

[Kaptin Keen]

Say - did anyone try Low Magic Age?

Frankly I'm not sure it's a roguelike at all, but it's on sale, and immensely well received (it's in early access), so I figured I'd ask regardless =)

[Bucky]

I came up with my own teleportation solution to the animated forest, a long time ago.


http://i56.tinypic.com/w828sp.png


-----

My current choice of roguelike is Cinco Paus. I don't have the patience for full-length roguelikes anymore.

[Psyren]

I'm a big fan of Enter The Gungeon and hope to beat it this year.

Also doesn't Spelunky 2 come out this year too?

[Kaptin Keen]

I came up with my own teleportation solution to the animated forest, a long time ago.


http://i56.tinypic.com/w828sp.png


-----

My current choice of roguelike is Cinco Paus. I don't have the patience for full-length roguelikes anymore.

Haha! That's beautiful =)

[Kaptin Keen]

As some may have noticed, I haven't had tremendous luck playing casters. I now have a moderately succesful paladin, who happened upon a spellbook of invisibility. I decided that since I've little else worth casting, I might as well walk around invisible. My wonderful adamantium armor had also evaporated, and it seemed prudent.

As a result - possibly - he seems to have ... 'unlearned' the spell? It disappeared, at any rate. What gives?

[Silfir]

Every time you cast a spell, you lose spell knowledge points.

The amount of spell knowledge points gained when you read a spellbook is rolled based on your character's literacy skill, natural aptitude for spellcasting (determined by race, class, star sign), and most importantly your Learning score. Concentration might play into it, too.

Paladins are only semi-spellcasters at most, so depending on your Learning score it wouldn't be surprising if you only gained a modest amount of spell knowledge from reading a spellbook of Veil of the Gods, which you then ran out of.

That's the gist of it. There is plenty of information about spellcasting mechanics in the manual - though it's really as easy as paying attention to the numbers on spell screen, and noting that one of them would go up every time you read the spellbook, and go down every time you cast the spell. There is another number that goes up over time as you cast the spell - spell efficiency - which increases the effect and lowers the cost of the spell as it accumulates.

[Kaptin Keen]

There is another number that goes up over time as you cast the spell - spell efficiency - which increases the effect and lowers the cost of the spell as it accumulates.

This part I knew. The other surprised me a bit. Well, I only read enough from my precious book to learn the spell, since they tend to explode or go up in flames. So I've re-learned it already, but I really need to boost my literacy.

And to find new goddamned armor! =)

[Rynjin]

I had to look that up when my Elementalist suddenly stopped being able to cast Fireball after two casts. Not my favorite mechanic, but eh. Funnier in hindsight, I guess. I rounded up a whole horde of enemies so I could total defense and wipe them out with one cast and...nothin'. Mobbed, killed, RIP Rydia.

My current best character is a level 6 Female Gray Elf Wizard, with the spells Lightning Bolt, Light, Darkness, and Mystic Shovel (which I can't even cast).

She probably would have died long ago, but she started with a Ring of Luck and I happened upon a kobold with a bundle of 20 Arrows of Slaying early on (still have 15, arrows don't break easy in this game apparently) which has made things way smoother so far.

[Anteros]

All of the talk about ADoM put me in the mood to play some Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. It took me a while to get back into the swing of the game, but after several deaths I finally have a character with a solid chance of ascending. It's just a matter of actually deciding to grab the orb and ascend versus getting greedy and eventually dying as I go for an extended end-game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

All of the talk about ADoM put me in the mood to play some Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. It took me a while to get back into the swing of the game, but after several deaths I finally have a character with a solid chance of ascending. It's just a matter of actually deciding to grab the orb and ascend versus getting greedy and eventually dying as I go for an extended end-game.

Yea. You get the three runes you need, then go... "Okay, so this is a pretty boss build. Do I just go down to Zot and end this, or do I go for bonus points?"

Many, many a hero has died to hubris at this stage in the game.

[Kaptin Keen]

So I've reached that same point in the game - with two different characters at the same time, now (because I have one free install, and one Steam install, and a character alive in each): I do not do enough damage in melee to stay alive. I've killed Keethrax in both cases, both are now in Dwarf Town, and ... I do not inflict sufficiently high damage to move on.

In one game there's halberd lying about in the DT shop. I believe it's ... +9, 2d6+11. But it's a twohander, and I use shields. The other character actually has the moon sickle, but I'm not using the moon sickle, dammit!

And neither has any offensive magic, obviously. Oh, that's not true - one has ball lightning, which entirely drains his mana whilst not doing enough damage to kill anything =)

Still, it's a mark in my calendar: My paladin has a damage spell =)

[Cespenar]

All of the talk about ADoM put me in the mood to play some Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. It took me a while to get back into the swing of the game, but after several deaths I finally have a character with a solid chance of ascending. It's just a matter of actually deciding to grab the orb and ascend versus getting greedy and eventually dying as I go for an extended end-game.

Similarly, this thread (I think) made me return to DoomRL. It's still kinda amazing to me how slick that thing plays.

[Kato]

I'm a big fan of Enter The Gungeon and hope to beat it this year.


I'm surprised this doesn't get mentioned more often. I was under the impression that it was quite popular. I've tried my hand at it and I'll probably keep trying but I'm afraid I must admit I really suck at it.

Something I've played hours and hours is 20xx which is basically Megaman X as a rogue like / lite.

[Silfir]

So I've reached that same point in the game - with two different characters at the same time, now (because I have one free install, and one Steam install, and a character alive in each): I do not do enough damage in melee to stay alive. I've killed Keethrax in both cases, both are now in Dwarf Town, and ... I do not inflict sufficiently high damage to move on.

In one game there's halberd lying about in the DT shop. I believe it's ... +9, 2d6+11. But it's a twohander, and I use shields. The other character actually has the moon sickle, but I'm not using the moon sickle, dammit!

And neither has any offensive magic, obviously. Oh, that's not true - one has ball lightning, which entirely drains his mana whilst not doing enough damage to kill anything =)

Still, it's a mark in my calendar: My paladin has a damage spell =)

What weapon are you using? What's your strength score?

You seem to keep running into this same issue, so I can't help but wonder if you're making a fundamental mistake somewhere. Usually if you make it to Dwarftown, even if you don't want to go with a two-hander, some kind of adamantium one-handed weapon should have popped up. You should be doing fine with those.

The limiting factor when it comes to survival tends to be armor, not damage. What's your DV/PV?

Somehow or other, you appear to be picking fights you can't handle. What were the last creatures that killed you?

[Wookieetank]

I'm not sure how well known it is, but RogueBasin (http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Main_Page) is a great resource for Roguelikes. It also has some really well done guides on how to program your own, and things to take into considerations when making a roguelike as well. Even managed to have a barebones roguelike of my own at one point. Ran into some issues trying to give enemies ranged attacks, and them being able to hit you from across the map. Really should get back to poking around at that one of these days, if I can even find it.

[Bucky]

Somehow or other, you appear to be picking fights you can't handle. What were the last creatures that killed you?

New players usually don't know what fights they can handle.

[Knaight]

New players usually don't know what fights they can handle.

It's a major part of the learning curve, for a lot of roguelikes. At least ADOM doesn't actively give you bad advice (ToME suggesting that you go to the Daikara at level 8 comes to mind, for all that I pulled it off for a while).

[Kaptin Keen]

What weapon are you using? What's your strength score?

You seem to keep running into this same issue, so I can't help but wonder if you're making a fundamental mistake somewhere. Usually if you make it to Dwarftown, even if you don't want to go with a two-hander, some kind of adamantium one-handed weapon should have popped up. You should be doing fine with those.

The limiting factor when it comes to survival tends to be armor, not damage. What's your DV/PV?

Somehow or other, you appear to be picking fights you can't handle. What were the last creatures that killed you?

Well - let's see:

Str. 17, my damage on normal is +21, 2d3+9, I'm wielding a Bloody dagger because it's substantially more effective than my adamantium longsword (which yields +18, 1d8+10 - but doesn't crit constantly, like the dagger does). DV/PV seems to be +9/+9, including steel skin. The game seems to not want to just inform me of that?! Oh, found it, it's 37/9.

What creatures have killed me? There was an elf lord, a blue dragon, some sort of dark orc leader. I think there was also some kind of levelled ratling fencer guy, who I quite simply never hit - through several rounds of praying and healing, not a single hit landed.

All of this at around level 13, somewhere below DT.

[Silfir]

A blue dragon?

When you spoke to Thrundarr, did he mention something about an alternative route to the Animated Forest that's filled with dangerous creatures? You should not be seeing blue dragons unless you ended up in there. Even if you do, you should definitely not be fighting them.

I suspect the levelled ratling fencer you mentioned was a ratling duelist; since they bypass PV and disarm you like crazy, they're not typically something you'd want to fight in melee unless you vastly overpower them.

It's not the fault of your weapon, as far as I can tell. Bloody daggers are quite decent. 9 PV is a little on the low side, however. I wouldn't trust myself to cross the Animated Forest with that, and definitely not the Dwarven Halls.

I would absolutely recommend forgetting about the area below Dwarftown for now and try to find some loot in the Puppy Cave, or explore some of the random dungeons. There are at least two that you shouldn't have particular trouble with - the moldy one and the shadowy one. Work on improving your armor. What's it made up of at the moment? Did I get that right, you have 9 PV total including Tough Skin, Iron Skin and Steel Skin?

[Kaptin Keen]

A blue dragon?

When you spoke to Thrundarr, did he mention something about an alternative route to the Animated Forest that's filled with dangerous creatures? You should not be seeing blue dragons unless you ended up in there. Even if you do, you should definitely not be fighting them.

I suspect the levelled ratling fencer you mentioned was a ratling duelist; since they bypass PV and disarm you like crazy, they're not typically something you'd want to fight in melee unless you vastly overpower them.

It's not the fault of your weapon, as far as I can tell. Bloody daggers are quite decent. 9 PV is a little on the low side, however. I wouldn't trust myself to cross the Animated Forest with that, and definitely not the Dwarven Halls.

I would absolutely recommend forgetting about the area below Dwarftown for now and try to find some loot in the Puppy Cave, or explore some of the random dungeons. There are at least two that you shouldn't have particular trouble with - the moldy one and the shadowy one. Work on improving your armor. What's it made up of at the moment? Did I get that right, you have 9 PV total including Tough Skin, Iron Skin and Steel Skin?

Yea, the blue dragon was in the abandoned dwarf caves. I popped my head in there a couple of times, the other time there was some sort of ... shadow wyrm, maybe? So yea, not a place I should be going, I know =)

You're almost certainly right about the ratling duelist. It wasn't an avoidable fight, though - he wandered in from behind me while I was fighting a .. are they called tension rooms?

PV is 13 now. ID'd some stuff I had in my inventory already, and improved that. And I've already completed the obvious dungeons - puppy quest and druid quest. But I could find a couple of other overworld dungeons, no problem. Better armor would certainly be nice. Oh, and my toughness isn't high enough for steel skin, but I have the other two.

I also have ... fire, acid, cold, stun resistance, improved healing rate from troll blood. And I'm cursed, but working on that.

I have a couple of scrolls to improve a melee weapon too - I'm just not sure my dagger is what I should use them on? =)

[Rynjin]

Started save scumming on my Wizard to help learn some more stuff about this game. So far I've learned: Lightning Bolt bouncing is kind of bull****; it doesn't make much sense that I can arrange for a target to be hit twice and it only takes damage once, but I get killed if it bounces on me. Alchemy is more obtuse than the rest of the game, and can apparently result in 400 damage explosions by putting some berries in a vial of water. Eating Displacer Beasts results in (permanent?) Confusion and a random teleportation. Strength of Atlas is the BEST THING EVER. Finding good weapons for a Wizard is hard. You can accidentally eat a puppy's corpse if you click on it and then exit the menu without picking an option. If you wear a cursed belt, it becomes impossible to take off your robes. Because you can't pull fabric through a loose loop, I guess.

To do: figure out what armor I can wear, because these robes I started with suck. Find out what these scrolls I have do, because the names aren't super helpful.

[Kaptin Keen]

.. but you can bounce bolt spells around corners, at stuff you can't see. Situationally OP. Alchemy tends to explode if you're doing it wrong - you need a recipe to know what you're doing. Corpses do all manner of things. Eat the right ones - or combination of right ones - and it's quite a boon. Strength of Atlas is also a trap: If for some reason you can't renew it, you're really screwed. Belts block the torso slot, clover block the ring slots.

Names are often anagrams (are those the ones?) For instance, Tywat Pare is Wyatt Earp. See? Further to this, blessed scrolls of identify are your friend. So is holy water.

In case none of this is new to you, I apologize - I'm not trying to be a smartass =)

[Winthur]

A blue dragon?
Well, you don't know, maybe he got Blup mad. :smallwink:

[Sian]

Alchemy tends to explode if you're doing it wrong - you need a recipe to know what you're doing.

Unless you reallly know what you're doing ... seem to recall reading YAVP where the only damage doing the game being explosive alchemy

[Silfir]

Started save scumming on my Wizard to help learn some more stuff about this game. So far I've learned: Lightning Bolt bouncing is kind of bull****; it doesn't make much sense that I can arrange for a target to be hit twice and it only takes damage once, but I get killed if it bounces on me.

The target will take damage twice if you hit it twice. It's easy to overlook, or confuse with the random chance some creatures have to shrug off any given bolt hit using their spell resistance.


Alchemy is more obtuse than the rest of the game, and can apparently result in 400 damage explosions by putting some berries in a vial of water.

Stick to the recipes you know - you can see them with ctrl-R. Or maybe shift-R.

But keep this in mind for if you ever become immune to fire.


If you wear a cursed belt, it becomes impossible to take off your robes. Because you can't pull fabric through a loose loop, I guess.

It's not loose. Otherwise you could take it off.


To do: figure out what armor I can wear, because these robes I started with suck.

You can wear whatever armor you want. There is no such thing as arcane spell failure in ADOM. Studded leather armor is fairly common and a decent step up, chain mail is better still.


Find out what these scrolls I have do, because the names aren't super helpful.

If you have a sizeable amount of scrolls, try reading one of the biggest stack you own.

[Kaptin Keen]

If you have a sizeable amount of scrolls, try reading one of the biggest stack you own.

Or not ....

Scrolls are propably the least dangerous items in the game, but that's not to say none of them damage your character in horrible ways. You:


Drop a potion of water on an aligned alter - as in, matches your alignment - to make it blessed, then dip one of the GLORIA MUNDI scrolls in it, cast that, all your problems go away.

[Silfir]

Scrolls of identify have randomized labels. It may be SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI in your current game, but it can be something else entirely the next.

What I'm talking about is that scrolls of identify are the most common scroll. Identical scrolls stack up in your inventory, so if you have a big pile of scrolls, those that form the biggest stack are very likely to be scrolls of identify. If not, they are typically scrolls of uncursing. Practically impossible for it to be a scroll with a negative effect as long as your sample size is somewhat reasonable.

[Kaptin Keen]

Scrolls of identify have randomized labels. It may be SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI in your current game, but it can be something else entirely the next.

What I'm talking about is that scrolls of identify are the most common scroll. Identical scrolls stack up in your inventory, so if you have a big pile of scrolls, those that form the biggest stack are very likely to be scrolls of identify. If not, they are typically scrolls of uncursing. Practically impossible for it to be a scroll with a negative effect as long as your sample size is somewhat reasonable.

I .. well, I suspected that, but then the Gloria Mundi scrolls have been Identify in the games I've identified them in. So it seemed the logical conclusion. Also, some aren't? The Kapow, Wopak, there's another I'm sure but the name escapes me, HitMe, CutMe - they seem to do what it says on the tin. No?

I can't be sure, I rarely get as far as identifying all, and then I don't recall what was what before =)

[Silfir]

Just checked my current game (some level 20 priest) and nope. Identify is "MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH", which sounds like it should be satiation, but satiation is "CUTME", which sounds like it might be increase melee accuracy or damage, but those are "Yik'Mech'Shegoth" and "deam ni panaj", respectively. The "HITME" scroll is great identify, "KAPOW" is item creation. You get the picture. Not even the unlabeled scroll is always blank. So you might end up putting the unlabeled scroll in uncursed water to turn it into a blank scroll, and like magic a label appears on it, out of nothing.

It's possible that, for example, a scroll of "MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH" is a little more likely to be a scroll of satiation than it is to be any of the many other scrolls (since that presumably is its initially assigned label before they all get shuffled), but not in any reliable way. I'm not sure if research on that subject exists.

This is an area in which save scumming may well be skewing your perception. Scroll labels are determined on character creation; if you keep playing the same character, you will get the same labels.

There are some select scrolls with fixed descriptions; they typically have quest relevance or are otherwise unique items with a specific purpose.

[Kaptin Keen]

This is an area in which save scumming may well be skewing your perception.

Nah, it's another form of confirmation bias. But I concede your point: Scroll names are determined on character generation. Interesting - I didn't think so =)

[Sian]

In fact, Absent compelling evidence in the other direction, I'd argue that all 'Random' names are distributed on CharGen ... note through that for both Potions (iirc) and Rings, Amulets and Wands (and even a few handful of boots/gloves) there are subgroupings of items that shuffle between a select number of names

[Anteros]

Yea. You get the three runes you need, then go... "Okay, so this is a pretty boss build. Do I just go down to Zot and end this, or do I go for bonus points?"

Many, many a hero has died to hubris at this stage in the game.

Yeah, but the point for me is never really to get the orb and escape. That's pretty easy. At least for a veteran player. I consider late game to be where the real game starts.

[Kaptin Keen]

Obviously, when I find something really good, it's a bloody staff. Kalmius' Shield. Which is every type of awesome I can think of. It does - easily - five times the damage my Bloody dagger does, it has resistance to death attacks and paralysation, +15 DV, doubles PP regeneration.

I guess I'm learning to wield a staff then. I shall be a Palamage.

Oh, I wanted to ask something, too: Slay the Spire. Yay or nay?

[Sian]

Oh, I wanted to ask something, too: Slay the Spire. Yay or nay?

Somewhere inbetween, it’s good at what it sets out to do, but apprehending the tag “roguelike” makes it somewhat fall between two chairs for me. Quite frankly i’m not sure i’d call a roguelike in the first place (just as i wouldn’t call the adventures in Hearthstone Rougelikes)

[Knaight]

Oh, I wanted to ask something, too: Slay the Spire. Yay or nay?

Yay. It's excellent, and it's one of very, very few games where I've put more than 100 hours in it, and possibly more than 200 (which is a category with maybe four other games, and one of them involved counting a whole series together).

[Silfir]

Slay the Spire is excellent.

There's one complaint I would make - the Standard game mode sets you up with each of the characters' starter decks every time, and the process of improving from the starter deck eventually begins to feel repetitive and frustrating. This issue disappears in Custom mode, where you get a variety of options that add spice to the experience and are able to completely ditch the starter deck, but the Custom mode doesn't allow you to access the true ending. Right now, I'm in the situation where I do still want to keep trying to get the true ending achievements for two of the three characters, but it doesn't feel like I'm truly in control of whether or not I can make that happen.

The central issue is that the main way you improve your deck is through drops of "Add a card" rewards, provided by monster encounters. But as anyone who's played a TCG or CCG before knows, adding a card to your deck also has a way of making each individual card that's already in your deck less likely to be drawn. So ideally you'd want to replace the bad cards with better cards, but you only ever get to remove a couple of cards during a full run, which is not enough to get rid of all the inferior "Strike" and "Defend" cards in your deck, especially since you often also need to use "Remove a Card" rewards to get rid of Curse cards that are added during events.

From what I can tell, the key is to build your character's game plan in such a way that they can handle drawing a certain percentage of suboptimal cards, such as by using Discard synergies, which are accessible to the Silent for example. I haven't yet figured out what kind of deckbuilding plan would enable the Ironclad or Defect to reliably beat the true final boss. All the characters seem to be highly reliant on finding powerful relics that happen to synergize with the deck in order to accomplish that.

All is that is neither here nor there; these are issues that cropped up for me long after the point that the game justified the investment. It's worth keeping in mind as well that I've yet to install a single mod - mod support was just added.

[Kaptin Keen]

I hate water traps. With the sort of unreasoning, unrelenting, seeting fury otherwise only found among people wearing bomb belts.

In a world threatened by chaos, inhabited by undead, dragons, hydras, masses of pure chaos, demons, terrors beyond fathom and number - the single most threatening thing you can ever encounter is a bucket of water, sneakily balanced on a door jamb.

Goddamn I hate water traps.

Otherwise, I'm doing surprisingly well in the pyramid.

[Wookieetank]

I hate water traps. With the sort of unreasoning, unrelenting, seeting fury otherwise only found among people wearing bomb belts.

In a world threatened by chaos, inhabited by undead, dragons, hydras, masses of pure chaos, demons, terrors beyond fathom and number - the single most threatening thing you can ever encounter is a bucket of water, sneakily balanced on a door jamb.

Goddamn I hate water traps.

Otherwise, I'm doing surprisingly well in the pyramid.

At least they're not buckets full of slimes...

[Kaptin Keen]

At least they're not buckets full of slimes...

Ha! Before coming to the pyramid, I found a level of the ... shadowy dungeon, perhaps? That was basically one great big vault full of slimes, oozes and jellies. I'm fairly sure it took me a bajillion years to clear it. Including running out of food, legging it up, buying new supplies, and returning to finish the gooey things off.

Victory for the Non-Amorphous!

I also beat the pyramid. I won't try and fool anyone into thinking I did it without save scumming, but ... just because of the god damned water traps.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ha! Before coming to the pyramid, I found a level of the ... shadowy dungeon, perhaps? That was basically one great big vault full of slimes, oozes and jellies. I'm fairly sure it took me a bajillion years to clear it. Including running out of food, legging it up, buying new supplies, and returning to finish the gooey things off.

Victory for the Non-Amorphous!

I also beat the pyramid. I won't try and fool anyone into thinking I did it without save scumming, but ... just because of the god damned water traps.

There's a branch in DCSS like that. At the bottom is a King Slime which is sentient enough to worship the god of slimes, and is its only worshiper. If you don't convert to that believe and kill the king slime, the deity perishes along with its last follower. The first time I saw that, I kinda freaked out... holy crap, I just killed a deity!

[OutOfThyme]

Slay the Spire is excellent.

...

From what I can tell, the key is to build your character's game plan in such a way that they can handle drawing a certain percentage of suboptimal cards, such as by using Discard synergies, which are accessible to the Silent for example. I haven't yet figured out what kind of deckbuilding plan would enable the Ironclad or Defect to reliably beat the true final boss. All the characters seem to be highly reliant on finding powerful relics that happen to synergize with the deck in order to accomplish that.For the Ironclad, you have to use Exhaust synergies to achieve the same effect. They're slower to get done than the Discard/draw options that the Silent has (unless you take a card like Sever Soul or Fiend Fire that just nukes just about everything in your hand), but they're also permanent for the rest of your fight. Exhaust cards make each subsequent draw more powerful. There's also cards like Warcry and Headbutt that allow you to control (to a limited degree) your next turn's draw.

You could also cheese everything in the game with Corruption+Dead Branch, but that's only fun if you're messing around.

I will agree that the default game mode gets a bit boring after a while, but the game is ultimately balanced around it. Picking the one option in Custom that allows you to draft cards before you start makes Act I really easy - and can even trivialize the entire game if you're lucky. I wish they'd give you the option of themed starter decks that are slightly more useful than the default Strike/Defend decks, without being as broken as drafting 15 cards.

I can't really comment on beating the true final boss with Defect, since I haven't done it, but I imagine using Recursion with Dark Orbs and turtling with Frost Orbs is your best bet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For the Ironclad, you have to use Exhaust synergies to achieve the same effect. They're slower to get done than the Discard/draw options that the Silent has (unless you take a card like Sever Soul or Fiend Fire that just nukes just about everything in your hand), but they're also permanent for the rest of your fight. Exhaust cards make each subsequent draw more powerful. There's also cards like Warcry and Headbutt that allow you to control (to a limited degree) your next turn's draw.

You could also cheese everything in the game with Corruption+Dead Branch, but that's only fun if you're messing around.

I will agree that the default game mode gets a bit boring after a while, but the game is ultimately balanced around it. Picking the one option in Custom that allows you to draft cards before you start makes Act I really easy - and can even trivialize the entire game if you're lucky. I wish they'd give you the option of themed starter decks that are slightly more useful than the default Strike/Defend decks, without being as broken as drafting 15 cards.

I can't really comment on beating the true final boss with Defect, since I haven't done it, but I imagine using Recursion with Dark Orbs and turtling with Frost Orbs is your best bet.

Quill18 is doing a Slay the Spire series at the moment, just took his first attempt at the final boss as Ironclad. Went for a strength multiplier build. Lost because he had no way to mitigate damage and the elite before the boss really did a number on him because he didn't math right and took a ton of damage he didn't need to.

[Maethirion]

I can't really comment on beating the true final boss with Defect, since I haven't done it, but I imagine using Recursion with Dark Orbs and turtling with Frost Orbs is your best bet.

I've done it a couple of times - once with a One For All deck, where I was very lucky to have.... Kunai? The one where you get 1 Dex every time you play three attacks in a turn - it meant Steam Barrier could keep up with the damage output.
The other time I had 4 or 5 static discharges up, so every time it hit me it took 40 damage. It killed itself with its multi hits. A few ways to apply weak and I was sorted.
I can see either of those working too - personally I think the defect has the most varied route at heartbreaker

[Cespenar]

Ha! Before coming to the pyramid, I found a level of the ... shadowy dungeon, perhaps? That was basically one great big vault full of slimes, oozes and jellies. I'm fairly sure it took me a bajillion years to clear it. Including running out of food, legging it up, buying new supplies, and returning to finish the gooey things off.

Victory for the Non-Amorphous!

I also beat the pyramid. I won't try and fool anyone into thinking I did it without save scumming, but ... just because of the god damned water traps.

The water traps deal more damage to the player rather than the character, in my opinion. One way to deal them without Detect Traps is just to dump your scrolls and books somewhere safe and proceed like that.

Also, these might seem obvious, but a quick checklist for the Pyramid's top floor include:

-Highest level possible (was it 16?)
-Confusion resistance
-Some good DV because you'll get rushed in the top floor
-Fire
-If possible, invisibility

[Sian]

Also, the layout, (including trap position) is predetermined in the pyramid

[Winthur]

-Highest level possible (was it 16?)
Maybe unless you're a troll; I once genuinely tried to uphold this rule for so long that I descended through AF and completed TotHK before I did the pyramid and I was still legible. Otherwise, yeah, good post. Pyramid is really pretty easy, like a first real test of mettle. Rehetep in particular can be one-shot with a fire spell.
Detect Traps is really useful in there, though, and in the old versions it was another great reason to roll Dwarf or a Neutral/Chaotic race so that you can do the Pick pockets quest and learn Detect Traps from Yergius.

Although now the thieves guild has been entirely revamped, Yergius is a kill quest from Tywat, and I have no idea how to even maneuver inside the new thieves guild, so now I don't know what to do. Good thing I roll almost exclusively Dwarves anyway. :smalltongue:

[Kaptin Keen]

The water traps deal more damage to the player rather than the character, in my opinion. One way to deal them without Detect Traps is just to dump your scrolls and books somewhere safe and proceed like that.

Also, these might seem obvious, but a quick checklist for the Pyramid's top floor include:

-Highest level possible (was it 16?)
-Confusion resistance
-Some good DV because you'll get rushed in the top floor
-Fire
-If possible, invisibility

-Highest level possible (was it 16?) ✔️
-Confusion resistance ✔️
-Some good DV because you'll get rushed in the top floor ✔️
-Fire ✔️
-If possible, invisibility ✔️

I thought about dropping all my scrolls, but then I felt I'd need them in the fight. Then I didn't need them.

But it's not just scroll and books - it's also rust to every goddamn metal item (possibly not mithril and adamantium?). But yes, I agree: The game could potentially go on, even so.


Also, the layout, (including trap position) is predetermined in the pyramid

Yea, but I don't cheat - in that particular way.

[OutOfThyme]

I've done it a couple of times - once with a One For All deck, where I was very lucky to have.... Kunai? The one where you get 1 Dex every time you play three attacks in a turn - it meant Steam Barrier could keep up with the damage output.
The other time I had 4 or 5 static discharges up, so every time it hit me it took 40 damage. It killed itself with its multi hits. A few ways to apply weak and I was sorted.
I can see either of those working too - personally I think the defect has the most varied route at heartbreaker

I've had very bad luck with Static Discharge on A15, so I basically never pick it up. It just doesn't seem to be all that useful, considering that you've only got limited opportunities to heal yourself (via Self-Repair, unless you have Creative AI).

But One For All with Steam Barrier does make a lot of sense. It's kind of like Shuriken + Glass Knife on the Silent, except it's defensive. That, coupled with Hologram+ would give you a very solid offense.

[Kaptin Keen]

So ... tell me about spells in ADOM.

I've found the first spellbook shop I've ever seen - so clearly, I'm playing a non-caster troll. But what should I buy? He'll never do massive damage with spells, but there's Cure Poison, Web, Light, Bless, Darkness. Also some bolt spells, fire and ice, burning hands, invisibility, teleportation. It's like a candy shop - only obviously, it's more like a spellbook shop. Since they sell no candy, but lots of books.

[Silfir]

Why write "non-caster" instead of the actual class? Non-caster trolls don't typically have any success reading spellbooks, but I have no idea what you mean by "non-caster". A troll healer or paladin has a chance, a troll barbarian doesn't.

I suppose you could buy a spellbook of Light first, since it's one of the easiest spells to learn, and see if you can get anywhere with that. If it works unexpectedly well, move on to more useful spells, like Teleportation, Burning Hands or the bolt spells. The other spells you mention have more or less situational use. I suppose Bless deserves the nod since the buff it provides is not replicable by items, but there are wands of webbing, scrolls of darkness etc, potions of cure poison and invisibility and so on.

Spell damage is not the problem in ADOM for non-casters, actually learning the spell is.

[Winthur]

So ... tell me about spells in ADOM.

I've found the first spellbook shop I've ever seen - so clearly, I'm playing a non-caster troll. But what should I buy? He'll never do massive damage with spells, but there's Cure Poison, Web, Light, Bless, Darkness. Also some bolt spells, fire and ice, burning hands, invisibility, teleportation. It's like a candy shop - only obviously, it's more like a spellbook shop. Since they sell no candy, but lots of books.

What class are you? Are you even literate at this point? You might be unable to cast at all with a non-caster troll (since they are, racially, awful at spell learning), so this might not be a consideration for now.

Generally, I seem to recall that out of all the elements, Acid is the most expensive but also most effective (hence end-game Wizards primarily abusing Spellbooks of Acid Ball), Fire and Lightning are solid but more resistable, Frost Bolt is great bridge-building utility, and Magic Missile is the weakest but also the least resistable. As for meleers (like a Paladin or Monk, but probably not a Barbarian), you're more likely to use spells like Darkness (renders a good chunk of monsters blind and useless), Light (to not plaster a cat by accident), Strength of Atlas (for carrying weights) and so on. But you're more likely to get spell charges from wands of wonder than anything else.

[Kaptin Keen]

Why write "non-caster" instead of the actual class? Non-caster trolls don't typically have any success reading spellbooks, but I have no idea what you mean by "non-caster". A troll healer or paladin has a chance, a troll barbarian doesn't.

I suppose you could buy a spellbook of Light first, since it's one of the easiest spells to learn, and see if you can get anywhere with that. If it works unexpectedly well, move on to more useful spells, like Teleportation, Burning Hands or the bolt spells. The other spells you mention have more or less situational use. I suppose Bless deserves the nod since the buff it provides is not replicable by items, but there are wands of webbing, scrolls of darkness etc, potions of cure poison and invisibility and so on.

Spell damage is not the problem in ADOM for non-casters, actually learning the spell is.


What class are you? Are you even literate at this point? You might be unable to cast at all with a non-caster troll (since they are, racially, awful at spell learning), so this might not be a consideration for now.

Generally, I seem to recall that out of all the elements, Acid is the most expensive but also most effective (hence end-game Wizards primarily abusing Spellbooks of Acid Ball), Fire and Lightning are solid but more resistable, Frost Bolt is great bridge-building utility, and Magic Missile is the weakest but also the least resistable. As for meleers (like a Paladin or Monk, but probably not a Barbarian), you're more likely to use spells like Darkness (renders a good chunk of monsters blind and useless), Light (to not plaster a cat by accident), Strength of Atlas (for carrying weights) and so on. But you're more likely to get spell charges from wands of wonder than anything else.

Troll healer. Though I did teach a troll barbarian some basic magic once upon a time. I mentioned that character before - he tested the waters in the abandoned dwarf halls, and met a ghost. Trolls and ghosts don't mix well.

But this is a troll healer. Learning of 11, current literacy of 71. He has 45 PP, meaning stuff like teleportation had better work the first time, because it'll will drain him completely.

The question is what's meaningful with low stats for casting. Light, Darkness, Bless, Web - all seem obvious choices, because they provide utility. I'd have loved to see an actual healing spell, but being a healer, obviously there isn't one. Damage seems iffy. He can dish out incredible damage with a 2-hander, and does so. Low dexterity means he's way less reliable with thrown rocks, sadly. Obviously a source of ranged damage is nice, but he'll never be world class nuker.

But generally, spellbooks tend to explode - pretty much unless you're an elf, and a full caster class to boot. No helping that though, except find one of those rooms, and hope it helps =)

[Sian]

I’d say it would be unlikely to consistly not blow up in your face. as healer you’re a semi-caster (just as Paladin) so if you boost your learning and max out literacy, it might be worthwhile, (although keep it at bookcastinf, paired witth troll you’re unlikely ever to get to the point where it’ll be worth it to read them out and try and selfcast any valuable number of times) otherwise my concern would be that it would be an expensive way of injuring yourself

[Kaptin Keen]

an expensive way of injuring yourself

Thing is, I don't buy anything else except food - and injury is irrelevant unless it kills me. Cause I'm a troll healer. I don't know how fast I regen, but it feels like 10 turns, I'm maxed out again. I've 140+ HP, and I'm sure I don't regen 14 points every round ... but it feels like it =)

[Winthur]

Thing is, I don't buy anything else except food - and injury is irrelevant unless it kills me. Cause I'm a troll healer. I don't know how fast I regen, but it feels like 10 turns, I'm maxed out again. I've 140+ HP, and I'm sure I don't regen 14 points every round ... but it feels like it =)

Candle-born Troll Healers with the Healthy talent are a well-known Konami Code for ADOM.

Well, except for the Ultimate endings where Trolls are absolutely screwed.

[Kaptin Keen]

It would surprise me if anyone was on the edge of their seats, waiting for me to report my findings on turning my level 10 troll healer into a caster of legend. Here are my findings:

Spells learned:
Bless
Farsight
Knock
Slow Poison
Strength of Atlas
Web

Spells patently unable to learn at this point:
Teleportation
Magic Missile

Despite my troll strength (it's only 20, actually), I'm burdened pretty much all the time. Is there a place one might stash 2 spellbooks relatively safely?

[Sian]

Is there a place one might stash 2 spellbooks relatively safely?

the Orge Cave after you've cleared it is a decent stash

[Kaptin Keen]

the Orge Cave after you've cleared it is a decent stash

Ogre cave, you say. Right.

Where is this, again? =)

Don't answer that, I'll just google it. Thanks!

[Cespenar]

I don't know if it's still doable in the latest version, but my method for stashing stuff has always been the "Dwarftown Condo" method, which is:

You go to the one square thick alleyway behind the Dwarftown shop, you go to the very end with just one square of stashing place, you use your wand of door creation and kick down those doors until you chance upon one with a lock that you have the fitting key for. Then you stash, lock it up, and leave.

That's your home alright.

[Kaptin Keen]

I don't know if it's still doable in the latest version, but my method for stashing stuff has always been the "Dwarftown Condo" method, which is:

You go to the one square thick alleyway behind the Dwarftown shop, you go to the very end with just one square of stashing place, you use your wand of door creation and kick down those doors until you chance upon one with a lock that you have the fitting key for. Then you stash, lock it up, and leave.

That's your home alright.

Ahhh ... how clever. Might take a good long while to get the door right, seeing as how I have only one key. But it's a remarkably solid plan. Or maybe you could luck out on a wand of trap creation, and get teleportation.

Edit: So I took your advice, I spawn a door - magically, I have the key. For whatever reason, the door spawns locked, and the key breaks the first time I use it. So now I can open the door, but not lock it again. Jeezus!! =)

[Cespenar]

Ahhh ... how clever. Might take a good long while to get the door right, seeing as how I have only one key. But it's a remarkably solid plan. Or maybe you could luck out on a wand of trap creation, and get teleportation.

Edit: So I took your advice, I spawn a door - magically, I have the key. For whatever reason, the door spawns locked, and the key breaks the first time I use it. So now I can open the door, but not lock it again. Jeezus!! =)

Yeah, like most things in ADOM, you have to bless the thing for it to not do the things you don't want it to do.

[Kaptin Keen]

I know how my healer is going to die now. He'll starve to death. Simple as that. There is still food in my inventory, but less than I burn walking to Terinyo - the only reliable source of food - and even with strength 24, I can only carry less than it takes to walk back. So since the game provides me with less than sustainable food supply - that's how this one dies.

[Cespenar]

I know how my healer is going to die now. He'll starve to death. Simple as that. There is still food in my inventory, but less than I burn walking to Terinyo - the only reliable source of food - and even with strength 24, I can only carry less than it takes to walk back. So since the game provides me with less than sustainable food supply - that's how this one dies.

Only reliable source of food? Did they remove the ratling traders at the Arena? Or herbs?

[Kaptin Keen]

Only reliable source of food? Did they remove the ratling traders at the Arena? Or herbs?

I have a ton of herbs - precisely one was stomafilia. And I'm much further from the ratling traders than I am from Terinyo. Cooked lizard has the advantage of much lower weight than large rations, but at the cost of similarly lower satiation value.

Let me fill you in: After getting to the second level of the dwarven halls, and killing an ancient blue dragon incidentally, I figured I'd go back to Terinyo on an errand. I want to shift my alignment to lawful, and there's that quest to kill Hotzenplotz, and the amulet it awards.

So on my way up, I passed your ratling traders, and bought 20 cooked lizards. At that point, I had plenty of food. 1 stomafilia, a couple of rations, a couple of dwarven sausages, plus ... like a cookie and an apple, or some such. Ok? Tons of food, by any measure.

Went up, went to HMV, sold a bit of stuff, picked up a single food item - I think there was an iron ration just lying around.

Ran out of food on my way to Terinyo. Bought there, was entirely out around the pyramid.

I would not have reached the ratlings alive, so I popped into ... the sinister dungeon, I think. Where I am now. Hungry, out of food, about to die.

[Cespenar]

I usually buy all the lizards they can sell if I'm playing a troll, for a point of comparison. Or until Strained, maybe. Also depends on how high your Food Preservation skill is, to balance it out and not always eat off of your stash.

Also, regarding herbs, when you encounter a patch of them and if you're playing a troll, you should "ideally" tailor them to the squares where at least one should produce stomafillia. You could look up the mechanics for that, if you like. It follows the rules of Conway's Game of Life, to tell you nothing with a few words. :smalltongue:

[Kaptin Keen]

I usually buy all the lizards they can sell if I'm playing a troll, for a point of comparison. Or until Strained, maybe. Also depends on how high your Food Preservation skill is, to balance it out and not always eat off of your stash.

Also, regarding herbs, when you encounter a patch of them and if you're playing a troll, you should "ideally" tailor them to the squares where at least one should produce stomafillia. You could look up the mechanics for that, if you like. It follows the rules of Conway's Game of Life, to tell you nothing with a few words. :smalltongue:

I think the ratling in question had ... just under 6000 of them. I could buy all of them, but not carry them.

Oh I know in principle I should fiddle with the herb patches to fit some sort of pattern, but .. well, that's an entirely different discussion: When does gameplay become too artificial? I find myself unwilling to tailer the way I play a game to a pattern developed to simulate life in binary. Isn't that more or less how it was? It was something along those lines, I seem to remember.

[Silfir]

Even with strength 24, I can only carry less than it takes to walk back.

Well, that seems pretty much impossible. You can carry like twenty rations with that much Strength.

Being Burdened or higher increases food consumption, though that doesn't really matter as long as it's from carrying food. Make sure that you have enough space in your inventory for it.

You might want to skip ahead to the Caverns of Chaos, they sell better food over there. Herbalism also helps - there is a type of herb that makes for excellent food.

EDIT: Whoopsie, missed a bunch of posts.

Farming herbs reliably is as easy as pruning them to make 2x2 patches, or three-patch L-shapes which grow into 2x2 patches. They'll infinitely restock, and if you overpick one of the 2x2 it will fill back in.

The rate of food consumption you describe seems completely out of whack. Are you possibly wearing a cloak of invisibility, or a cursed amulet of hunger?

[Winthur]

When I run into hunger problems from wearing artifacts I sometimes also buy the fried bats. Trolls, I think, can actually find cooked roaches edible, but everything else is trash.

That said, I still find to have hunger problems this peculiar to be a little out of whack, even for a troll. I wouldn't get this hungry until well after all of the dwarven mystic quests...

[Kaptin Keen]

You can carry like twenty rations with that much Strength.

Sure, if I'm walking around naked. But with my nice crystal chain mail, and Big Punch, that's not the case.


Are you possibly wearing a cloak of invisibility

Yes. I found out yesterday that it increases food consumption, I didn't know.

[Sian]

Big punch is so heavy that it’s just about useless, unless you have a truely giant strength score (30+ i’d say) or permanent strength of atlas, and really should be stored in your stash

[VexingVision]

The classic way to "cheat" a Roguelike is just to back up your save in a different folder. Is that not possible with ADOM?

(Full disclosure: ADOM is paying my bills.)

There's a version on Steam and GOG featuring a "soft mode" that allows unlimited saves. Hint hint, nudge nudge.


Did you guys know we're working on a sequel? ;)

[Cespenar]

I think the ratling in question had ... just under 6000 of them. I could buy all of them, but not carry them.

Oh I know in principle I should fiddle with the herb patches to fit some sort of pattern, but .. well, that's an entirely different discussion: When does gameplay become too artificial? I find myself unwilling to tailer the way I play a game to a pattern developed to simulate life in binary. Isn't that more or less how it was? It was something along those lines, I seem to remember.

Buy until Burdened or Strained then. Still, barring something really outrageously extreme, you should have no problem with hunger after encountering the ratlings.

Also, as said above, you might try stashing Big Punch until your str gets high and do some general weight optimization as well. Replace all heavy food with lizards, stash your books, keep only about 20 rocks for throwing, only 0-1 fallback armor and 1-2 weapons, etc.

Regarding herbs, I'm somewhat with you on that one. I usually do the least amount of fiddling with it to get a batch of morgia root and moss of mareilon, and that's it. Any more and it starts to get boring. But the system is there, if you want.

[Kaptin Keen]

Big punch is so heavy that it’s just about useless, unless you have a truely giant strength score (30+ i’d say) or permanent strength of atlas, and really should be stored in your stash

The armor weighs more though. I think? Isn't BP 600, and crystal chain mail is 640. I could look it up to be sure, but I'm too lazy.


(Full disclosure: ADOM is paying my bills.)

There's a version on Steam and GOG featuring a "soft mode" that allows unlimited saves. Hint hint, nudge nudge.

Did you guys know we're working on a sequel? ;)

Have the steam version already. Not for the saves, but for the freedom to build the character I want :p

Didn't know about the sequel.


Buy until Burdened or Strained then. Still, barring something really outrageously extreme, you should have no problem with hunger after encountering the ratlings.

Also, as said above, you might try stashing Big Punch until your str gets high and do some general weight optimization as well. Replace all heavy food with lizards, stash your books, keep only about 20 rocks for throwing, only 0-1 fallback armor and 1-2 weapons, etc.

Regarding herbs, I'm somewhat with you on that one. I usually do the least amount of fiddling with it to get a batch of morgia root and moss of mareilon, and that's it. Any more and it starts to get boring. But the system is there, if you want.

I bought until strained. Maybe this isn't entirely clear, but I'm not an idiot. But as a very hungry troll, wearing a cloak of invisibility, more than half those lizards are gone before I'm out of CoC. Now, I could carry a lot more lizards if my armor and weapon weighed less, and they'd last longer without the cloak.

I do realize BP is too heavy. But it's also 5x the damage of any alternative I have. So it's not like I equipped it blind, thinking everything would be honky-friggin-dory. Melee damage is a constant problem, and even with BP, I did not have enough damage to proceed below DT, which is why I went back out.

[Silfir]

Big Punch is probably not too heavy, all things told. Melee damage is important enough that it justifies an investment in terms of weight. (Goes double for you, since you always seem to feel like you're not doing enough damage in melee - makes sense to prioritize the things that mesh well with how you play!) Granted, once you combine it with crystal chain mail that's a big chunk of your carrying capacity gone. You may have to prune your inventory aggressively. When it comes down to it, 4 PV on your character is probably not that significant - you may want to swap the crystal chain mail for the ancient mummy wrappings, or something else much lighter. (Or did you beat Rehetep in a different game? Memory is getting fuzzy, I haven't slept in a while.) Basically, between the chain mail and Big Punch, unless you found a similarly excellent weapon randomly somewhere, go with Big Punch.

There are always two cooked lizard merchants in the Arena - make sure to buy both of them out. You may even want to spend some time on the level (reading books?) so they can restock. Fried Bat merchants will do in a pinch, though filling up on those can be a bit annoying.

Feels kinda nice to have called it re: cloak of invisibility.

[Cespenar]

I bought until strained. Maybe this isn't entirely clear, but I'm not an idiot. But as a very hungry troll, wearing a cloak of invisibility, more than half those lizards are gone before I'm out of CoC. Now, I could carry a lot more lizards if my armor and weapon weighed less, and they'd last longer without the cloak.

I do realize BP is too heavy. But it's also 5x the damage of any alternative I have. So it's not like I equipped it blind, thinking everything would be honky-friggin-dory. Melee damage is a constant problem, and even with BP, I did not have enough damage to proceed below DT, which is why I went back out.

It's not a matter of idiocy at all (obviously), but it's really hard to gauge someone else's "ADOM Lore" over the interwebs, especially given how complex the game is.

Anywho, I'd remove the cloak and only equip it on hard fights. Also, I can understand if Big Punch is miles ahead of your other stuff, but you could still optimize the rest of your inventory.

Also, the above suggestion of swapping the crystal chain for mummy wrappings is a solid one as well.

[Kaptin Keen]

Big Punch is probably not too heavy, all things told. Melee damage is important enough that it justifies an investment in terms of weight. (Goes double for you, since you always seem to feel like you're not doing enough damage in melee - makes sense to prioritize the things that mesh well with how you play!) Granted, once you combine it with crystal chain mail that's a big chunk of your carrying capacity gone. You may have to prune your inventory aggressively. When it comes down to it, 4 PV on your character is probably not that significant - you may want to swap the crystal chain mail for the ancient mummy wrappings, or something else much lighter. (Or did you beat Rehetep in a different game? Memory is getting fuzzy, I haven't slept in a while.) Basically, between the chain mail and Big Punch, unless you found a similarly excellent weapon randomly somewhere, go with Big Punch.

There are always two cooked lizard merchants in the Arena - make sure to buy both of them out. You may even want to spend some time on the level (reading books?) so they can restock. Fried Bat merchants will do in a pinch, though filling up on those can be a bit annoying.

Feels kinda nice to have called it re: cloak of invisibility.

Yes - good catch on the cloak.

Walking around below DT, I found plenty of food - I only left because it was a massive drain on other ressources. It took most of my want charges to down the dragon, for instance. Not enough melee damage, unsurprisingly, so it had to be magic. But with lots of food down there, I didn't notice the massive drain until later. It was also where I found the cloak, obviously. So putting 2 and 2 together took a little while.

With regards to pruning my inventory - I do try. But I don't carry much that doesn't make sense. A few rocks that I'm not good enough at throwing. Scrolls, potions and wands that weigh basically nothing. It's not like I have a spare armor and Slightly Smaller Punch in my backpack, also. I do have a spare large shield, because eventually, I'll have to go past all those bloody trees again.


It's not a matter of idiocy at all (obviously), but it's really hard to gauge someone else's "ADOM Lore" over the interwebs, especially given how complex the game is.

Anywho, I'd remove the cloak and only equip it on hard fights. Also, I can understand if Big Punch is miles ahead of your other stuff, but you could still optimize the rest of your inventory.

Also, the above suggestion of swapping the crystal chain for mummy wrappings is a solid one as well.

Agreed on the idiocy. It's like IT support, right? Sooner or later, you're going to have to ask the caller whether they're actually, 100% sure the machine is turned on, and connected to the internet. Hence the Cloak of Invisibility: I didn't know it drained satiation, and wouldn't have dreamed how much if I did.

I can cast Invisibility, even. I don't need the cloak for hard fights, but I might use it for exploring dangerous levels - where it might be awkward if the spell wears off suddenly =)

[Winthur]

Big Punch is at least a guaranteed weapon for people who go into the Basher talent line, which is among the better offensive talent lines [I tend to invest into TH > Speed >= PV > DV talents though].

EDIT: While skimming Ancardia wikia, I noticed Silfir brought the concept of 4X-style Succession Games to the Adom community at large (http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Roman_Republic_Games), and I just remembered that back in the days [also around 2009], I somewhat independently [without knowing of Silfir's idea, inspired by Civilization 4 succession games] brought the same concept to life on the now defunct Polish rogalikator forum, and I think we even had a gate closer in the two times we ran the event. Small world and all. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaptin Keen]

Big Punch is at least a guaranteed weapon for people who go into the Basher talent line, which is among the better offensive talent lines [I tend to invest into TH > Speed >= PV > DV talents though].

EDIT: While skimming Ancardia wikia, I noticed Silfir brought the concept of 4X-style Succession Games to the Adom community at large (http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Roman_Republic_Games), and I just remembered that back in the days [also around 2009], I somewhat independently [without knowing of Silfir's idea, inspired by Civilization 4 succession games] brought the same concept to life on the now defunct Polish rogalikator forum, and I think we even had a gate closer in the two times we ran the event. Small world and all. :smallbiggrin:

I always figured running a MMO in the style of ASCII style rogue-likes would be intriguing. Always with the core idea of having a ranking, and a specific, unique artifact handed to the player at the top.

Obviously, with enough players the ASCII graphics become an issue. Although I see ways around that.

[zlefin]

trying out adom after having read this thread; the complexity is nice, but there's a lot of interface nuisances which just seem unnecessary and which could've been made more intuitive.
like having to drop items in a merchant shop to sell them; it shouldn't have been hard to make a more obvious way than that. reading a manual should be something that helps, not something that's necessary because the interface is poorly explained. the world has come a long way in interface design after all.

another thing that was bugging me: constant interruptions. I was in Terinyo, just trying to heal up because I don't have any way to heal other than waiting around. and it interrupts me constantly because some villager walks next to me. so I have to manually click through the healing process a whole bunch of times. that's just something that could be run more smoothly.

and it took me quite awhile, and googling it multiple times, to figure out how to light a torch.

it feels like the game is more about fighting the interface at this point, and many things are a struggle to just get it to do straightforward things. and I've seen plenty of flash/unity games with interfaces that're easier to use, so it's not like it's just a result of lower production values or something.

gonna try the game somewhat more to see how it all shakes out.

[Sian]

it feels like the game is more about fighting the interface at this point, and many things are a struggle to just get it to do straightforward things. and I've seen plenty of flash/unity games with interfaces that're easier to use, so it's not like it's just a result of lower production values or something.

a fair share of it comes from the fact that the genre doesn't traditionally have all that much handholding (and a lot of assumed knowledge about how such games work, such as how to use the shops and the like), and that it's largely written, and with the mind that it should be able to run on a potato.

I'm not saying your wrong through, Interface is the weakest point, but rather to acknowledge why it is as such, and that it's a genre wide problem

[Cespenar]

It helps to contextualize when you know the crux of the game was released in 1994 for a few megabytes by one person.

So it's mainly about what the game can do, rather than what it can't.

[Caelestion]

The only rogue-like I ever played any significant amount of was Angband: The Pits of Moria in the mid-90s and then again in the mid-00s. I wonder how it's doing these days.

[Anteros]

It helps to contextualize when you know the crux of the game was released in 1994 for a few megabytes by one person.

So it's mainly about what the game can do, rather than what it can't.

Does it really though? Considering they're still monetizing it 25 years later, I don't think it's out of line to expect some improvements in that same time frame. It still very much plays like a product of its time.

I'll also agree that the interface in ADoM is particularly unintuitive and annoying even among roguelikes. It's the main reason I have hundreds of hours in games like DCSS or ToME but less than a dozen in ADoM.

[Kaptin Keen]

Does it really though? Considering they're still monetizing it 25 years later, I don't think it's out of line to expect some improvements in that same time frame. It still very much plays like a product of its time.

I'll also agree that the interface in ADoM is particularly unintuitive and annoying even among roguelikes. It's the main reason I have hundreds of hours in games like DCSS or ToME but less than a dozen in ADoM.

No no ... they started monetizing it fairly recently. You can still get the game for free, but if you want the full package - which still has the quirks you mention, as well as frequent updates, a save game function, and so on - then you'll need to pay.

I'll freely admit the interface takes some getting used to. I won't go so far as to call it a problem. D to drop things - sell them in a shop. ! to dip your scroll of identify in a potion of holy water. Equip a torch, U to use flint'n'steel. It is, after all, not rocket science. But it has an immense number of commands, and they can't all just be .. whatever.

But occasonally there are things you have to look up. For instance, I've read that you can examine doors to try and spot runes or traps or the like. I still have not figured out how to do that.

[zlefin]

a fair share of it comes from the fact that the genre doesn't traditionally have all that much handholding (and a lot of assumed knowledge about how such games work, such as how to use the shops and the like), and that it's largely written, and with the mind that it should be able to run on a potato.

I'm not saying your wrong through, Interface is the weakest point, but rather to acknowledge why it is as such, and that it's a genre wide problem

It doesn't seem so genre-wide to me; more likely it's a product of being a legacy system that hasn't made efforts to update its user interface, in part because there's always the basic problem that updating/improving the interface, while it makes it better for new users and better in general, requires some re-learning on the part of long-time users. but also in part because where improvements are focused depends on the predilection and talents of the developers.


I've played other roguelikes in the past, and they had much more intuitive interfaces with far fewer problems. like I was playing a new one being developed with Unity called Rogue Fable 3 recently. there were a few oddities (in part because it was literally in beta, those issues are getting fixed steadily) but it ran pretty smooth on the whole.

[Rynjin]

But occasonally there are things you have to look up. For instance, I've read that you can examine doors to try and spot runes or traps or the like. I still have not figured out how to do that.

I'm pretty sure you have to use the Detect Traps skill for that.

Then again, I've played characters with it and have still never detected a trap beforehand, so *shrugs*

[Kaptin Keen]

I'm pretty sure you have to use the Detect Traps skill for that.

Then again, I've played characters with it and have still never detected a trap beforehand, so *shrugs*

Ahh - see, that makes sense =D

Now that you mention it, I knew there was a skill for it. I just never played a character that had that skill (I think - or I entirely ignored it).

[Silfir]

Detect Traps works either in conjunction with the 's'earch command (generally you want to do 'ws' searches) or 'a'pplied directly. If your skill is low, you should probably examine multiple times to be sure.

The Alertness skill, incidentally, is used to spontaneously discover traps before you trigger them, or evade them after you trigger them. Detect Traps only helps if you specifically look for something.




Does it really though? Considering they're still monetizing it 25 years later, I don't think it's out of line to expect some improvements in that same time frame. It still very much plays like a product of its time.

ADOM has made huge efforts to improve the usability of the interface, actually! There are mouse controls, so you can move around by clicking, and you can right-click on things and you'll get a list of commands that are applicable in those situations. The Return key also displays a list of useful commands - that was added a couple of years ago. Nowadays, whenever you play, you keep getting hints about useful commands for whatever situation you are in as well.

You absolutely cannot make an informed argument that no effort has been put in. Ultimately, the game is fundamentally designed around the current control scheme; you can't fix it without completely rebuilding it from ground up. Which is pretty much what Thomas is doing at this very moment: Ultimate ADOM (https://www.ultimate-adom.com/), the planned reboot/sequel.

[Kato]

So... This is the ADOM thread now, do I get that right? :smalltongue:

After I actually started getting better I invested more time in Gungeon. I'm still not 'good' but less bad. Maybe I should play less but when I'm more focused. My reaction time might be a bit better then.

[Anteros]

Detect Traps works either in conjunction with the 's'earch command (generally you want to do 'ws' searches) or 'a'pplied directly. If your skill is low, you should probably examine multiple times to be sure.

The Alertness skill, incidentally, is used to spontaneously discover traps before you trigger them, or evade them after you trigger them. Detect Traps only helps if you specifically look for something.





ADOM has made huge efforts to improve the usability of the interface, actually! There are mouse controls, so you can move around by clicking, and you can right-click on things and you'll get a list of commands that are applicable in those situations. The Return key also displays a list of useful commands - that was added a couple of years ago. Nowadays, whenever you play, you keep getting hints about useful commands for whatever situation you are in as well.

You absolutely cannot make an informed argument that no effort has been put in. Ultimately, the game is fundamentally designed around the current control scheme; you can't fix it without completely rebuilding it from ground up. Which is pretty much what Thomas is doing at this very moment: Ultimate ADOM (https://www.ultimate-adom.com/), the planned reboot/sequel.

I won't argue that no effort has been put into fixing it, but I absolutely can and will argue that very little effort has been made. Mostly because people who have been playing the game for 20 years probably don't want to change at this point. There are a billion things that could be streamlined in the game that haven't been. Presumably because the "difficulty" and learning curve is part of the "charm."

To be clear, by "charm" I mean "us older players have suffered through this to learn the system, so newer players should have to as well."

[Winthur]

To be clear, by "charm" I mean "us older players have suffered through this to learn the system, so newer players should have to as well."
Personally, I prefer ADOM's interface much more to its contemporaries like Nethack, where a separate button for wielding weapons and wearing armor feels wholly unnecessary, and there are multiple other things that feel off. Nethack also seems to have a lot more interface-level mechanics that seem simply too fidgety when figuring them out - such as every single little bit of meta-info needed to maximize the use of Elbereth.

That said, I don't think there's that many commands you have to use and remember to do the most basic things. Most of the game is about pressing the numpad to ram into monsters. It's pickupable with just a few minutes with the manual and just getting used to the interface by moving around a bit.


There are a billion things that could be streamlined in the game that haven't been. Presumably because the "difficulty" and learning curve is part of the "charm."
As someone who is still extremely unused to the fact that I no longer can pick up items the lazy way by pressing ;, I concur with these people. :smalltongue:

Most of the manpower efforts seem to go into making the overall game experience richer (more dungeons, more ways to play) rather than dealing with interface hurdles because most classic ASCII roguelikes already assume you have the patience to figure out their interface, and many people already have these things memorized as muscle memory.

[Kaptin Keen]

To be clear, by "charm" I mean "us older players have suffered through this to learn the system, so newer players should have to as well."

But .... look, Skyrim has the most atrociously bad UI I ever saw. It's just ... everything, from inventory to spell casting, to equipment swapping and weapon sets and .... everything.

That's ... what is that, is that a Top 10 AAA title over the last 10 years? Something like that.

I Skyrim can get away with glaring flaws, I'm reasonably sure it's a little petty to blame a game you can get for free for not being perfect.

[Mutant Donkey]

My favorite is Rogue Legacy.
I'm currently playing Wizard of Legend but it's a bit too simple and grindy.

[Wookieetank]

My favorite is Rogue Legacy.
I'm currently playing Wizard of Legend but it's a bit too simple and grindy.

Rogue Legacy is fantastic. I like that there's such a variety of options with the game. I was pretty atrocious for the longest time, so I made my character to deal with that. If I know I can't dodge well, might as well have absurd amounts of retaliation damage, and it works on traps too!

Been playing a bit of Dungeons of Dredmor again recently, forgot how much of a difficulty cliff the 2nd floor is if you're not careful. Went through 3 characters in an hour earlier this week thanks to early run ins with a zoo.

[factotum]

Been playing a bit of Dungeons of Dredmor again recently, forgot how much of a difficulty cliff the 2nd floor is if you're not careful. Went through 3 characters in an hour earlier this week thanks to early run ins with a zoo.

I really like the monster zoos from Dungeons of Dredmor. Sure, they'll slaughter you right quick if you haven't got anything useful to use on them, but if you *have* got some nice AOE stuff, it's all sorts of fun to go hog wild and blast everything in there!

[Kaptin Keen]

I really like the monster zoos from Dungeons of Dredmor. Sure, they'll slaughter you right quick if you haven't got anything useful to use on them, but if you *have* got some nice AOE stuff, it's all sorts of fun to go hog wild and blast everything in there!

... but it's just a tension room!

I agree though, they're run. And since they're mixed, you never know what might be in there. Although, as I recall, if you're a melee style guy (m/f), you can still often just hack your way through the lot of 'em.

[tyckspoon]

Rogue Legacy is fantastic. I like that there's such a variety of options with the game. I was pretty atrocious for the longest time, so I made my character to deal with that. If I know I can't dodge well, might as well have absurd amounts of retaliation damage, and it works on traps too!

Been playing a bit of Dungeons of Dredmor again recently, forgot how much of a difficulty cliff the 2nd floor is if you're not careful. Went through 3 characters in an hour earlier this week thanks to early run ins with a zoo.

Yeah, you really need to have a plan for something useful in your first 2-3 levels, whether that's a good spell ability or crafting to guarantee yourself access to good enough gear to just bash through the next couple levels. I usually run into the issue at dungeon level 3, tho - not!mindflayers, robots, and genies all show up there, and they're all capable of thoroughly ruining your day without decent answers for ranged enemies, higher physical defense, and just generally higher enemy HP due to the dungeon level multiplier. Easier to do with Wizardlands, at least, since you'll probably get access to at least a couple of low-level extra dungeons you can punch through for extra XP and materials.


I agree though, they're run. And since they're mixed, you never know what might be in there. Although, as I recall, if you're a melee style guy (m/f), you can still often just hack your way through the lot of 'em.

Takes forever, tho, and you often end up having to chase down or use a backup ranged weapon to finish off some of the ranged or teleporting enemies. But yeah, if you can create or retreat to a chokepoint and not get yourself surrounded you can chop through a zoo without too much difficulty, it's just kind of tedious. Until the later levels where you're dealing with corrupting enemies and other things that you just really don't want to let touch you at all, at least, but by then you should have a healthy supply of squidbolts or poison flasks or similar to use as an opening shot and take care of ~half the zoo that way.

[Wookieetank]

Dredmor zoo discussion

Another thing I found out the hard way a while back with zoos, is that you have to kill them in one go. If you save and exit and come back, it makes it so you won't get an artifact from clearing it.

One of my personal favorite way of clearing zoos is to summon critters in the middle of the zoo, shut the doors, wait till the pets are dead/done, and repeat till the zoo is clear. A bit cheap, but the thought of listening to my pets as they shred through a horde of enemies is amusing. I'm usually running werediggle though, so I just wade in as a penguiny vortex of doom.

[Anteros]

Speaking of Dredmor, did they ever add any way to speed up the gameplay? I usually ended up giving up on runs halfway through simply because I was tired of watching the same animations 400,000 times.

[zlefin]

been playing adom some more, trying stuff out. lots of deaths, haven't gotten past lvl 10 yet.
it's still a reasonable game, gonna note my concerns/questions/comments: I'm mostly focusing on the negatives rather than the positives simply because they're more apparent, but it does ofc hvae quite a few good points.

some stuff I may've missed cuz of not finishing the tutorial (died in it, and it was only moderately helpful as a tutorial anyways, but maybe later on it had some useful stuff)
I been looking stuff up on its wiki a fair deal; it doesn't seem as friendly to an exploratory/learn style. having fixed information that isn't available directly in the game is something I dislike. e.g. what eating each corpse does. it's not a random thing like unidentified items that can vary from game to game, but it's a long fixed complicated list; with few, if any, ways in-game to figure them out beforehand. and the consequences for eating a bad one can be very severe and are always so.

I'm annoyed by some of the traps, which can be very nasty destroying equipment. In particular two nuisances: with the long narrow corridors, traps often block a path such that you have no choice but to walk over it, and in the early game there may be no ways at all to mitigate that; fortunately already seen traps aren't too likely to hurt you, still annoying though. The other being the door traps; many of which are very painful. Again, the real problem is that there's often no way around it, the doors are blocking the paths further into a dungeon, you either go home and give up, or you take the hit. quite a few classes don't have a way around that yet, and the items that might do so are not available yet.

I haven't made it to a good shop yet; only the munxip one, which is food only, and the black market one, which doesn't give you much gold and is too expensive to buy anything from.
shops can be very useful, so it's understandable they're limited; but keeping them from being available in the early game, while letting people use them well later seems like iffy design. in particular, with the wide variance in starting equipment based on race/class, the lack of a shop (and the infrequency of suitable item drops) exacerbates it.

the wiki said that the early game is one of the hardest parts, and many players feel that if you make it past that your odds are a lot better. I dunno if it's true, but there's certainly a number of things which point in that direction, and it's not a difficulty curve I'm fond of; wherein you can end up reaching a mid-game point where the game starts getting a lot easier. I remember that was one of the problems with the otherwise excellent XCOM, if you got a good start, it tended to snowball and the missions would end up being trivially easy stomps and stopped being fun.

the scaling of monster threats feels weird: as my character levels up, I have to face stronger monsters; but I haven't grown strong enough to actually beat them. with monsters continually spawning in the dungeons, and it seeming like they scale to match my level, it feels like levelling up is actually a disadvantage; that is, while I get stronger, the monsters growth rate in power is greater than my own, particularly because finding good new gear is rare, and there's no early shops to help address that. why should I take a class/race that levels up faster if that doesn't help me because the monsters are just scaling up with it?

[tyckspoon]

Speaking of Dredmor, did they ever add any way to speed up the gameplay? I usually ended up giving up on runs halfway through simply because I was tired of watching the same animations 400,000 times.

The +/- buttons are a hotkey for 'increase animation speed'; I usually play at double or triple speed just to make all the walking around go by at a reasonable pace. It's gotten me killed a few times tho because it outpaced my ability to process the game - getting counter-critted by something on the first attack but sending two or three more turns through the game before I realized my health was a lot lower than it should be, making multiple attacks into a monster with retaliatory damage, walking forward while dragons fireballed me after breaching a new door, letting a critical buff expire and getting swatted before I noticed and could take a turn to recast, etc.

[Wookieetank]

The +/- buttons are a hotkey for 'increase animation speed'; I usually play at double or triple speed just to make all the walking around go by at a reasonable pace. It's gotten me killed a few times tho because it outpaced my ability to process the game - getting counter-critted by something on the first attack but sending two or three more turns through the game before I realized my health was a lot lower than it should be, making multiple attacjs into a monster with retaliatory damage, walking forward while dragons fireballed me after breaching a new door, letting a critical buff expire and getting swatted before I noticed and could take a turn to recast, etc.

There's also the no time to grind mode that halves the floor size and doubles all xp earned. Its usually how I end up playing d/t time constraints and having too many hobbies to keep up with.

[Anteros]

The +/- buttons are a hotkey for 'increase animation speed'; I usually play at double or triple speed just to make all the walking around go by at a reasonable pace. It's gotten me killed a few times tho because it outpaced my ability to process the game - getting counter-critted by something on the first attack but sending two or three more turns through the game before I realized my health was a lot lower than it should be, making multiple attacks into a monster with retaliatory damage, walking forward while dragons fireballed me after breaching a new door, letting a critical buff expire and getting swatted before I noticed and could take a turn to recast, etc.

Interesting. That might make the game actually playable. I'll give it a try later. Thanks.

[tyckspoon]

Interesting. That might make the game actually playable. I'll give it a try later. Thanks.

It definitely makes killing things by repeatedly Psychic Shove'ing them into a corner at 1-2 points of damage per cast a lot more tolerable :smallamused:

[Silfir]

been playing adom some more, trying stuff out. lots of deaths, haven't gotten past lvl 10 yet.
it's still a reasonable game, gonna note my concerns/questions/comments: I'm mostly focusing on the negatives rather than the positives simply because they're more apparent, but it does ofc hvae quite a few good points.

some stuff I may've missed cuz of not finishing the tutorial (died in it, and it was only moderately helpful as a tutorial anyways, but maybe later on it had some useful stuff)
I been looking stuff up on its wiki a fair deal; it doesn't seem as friendly to an exploratory/learn style. having fixed information that isn't available directly in the game is something I dislike. e.g. what eating each corpse does. it's not a random thing like unidentified items that can vary from game to game, but it's a long fixed complicated list; with few, if any, ways in-game to figure them out beforehand. and the consequences for eating a bad one can be very severe and are always so.

Yeah, as far as I can tell, you're supposed to figure out the effects of eating corpses with trial and error.

You can get quite far using "learn style", though. I've never eaten a zombie corpse figuring that couldn't be a good idea, and sure enough, it isn't. Once you've eaten one kobold corpse, you get the memo about their personal hygiene. On the other hand, nobody tells you that you should be eating the first (non-chaos) spider corpse on sight, as well as the first giant ant corpse.

"Explore an unknown world" is part of the game's central appeals, so it's difficult to argue that online resources should be baked into the game proper. They're already present for those who seek them out, after all.


I'm annoyed by some of the traps, which can be very nasty destroying equipment. In particular two nuisances: with the long narrow corridors, traps often block a path such that you have no choice but to walk over it, and in the early game there may be no ways at all to mitigate that; fortunately already seen traps aren't too likely to hurt you, still annoying though. The other being the door traps; many of which are very painful. Again, the real problem is that there's often no way around it, the doors are blocking the paths further into a dungeon, you either go home and give up, or you take the hit. quite a few classes don't have a way around that yet, and the items that might do so are not available yet.

One crucial element of ADOM's design is that you can go home and give up, do something else and come back later. There is a big wilderness and several early game dungeons that allow you to toughen up before you forcibly kick open a door.

To be unable to tank a door trap from full HP, your character would have to be extraordinarily frail (which suggests some additional levels should do the trick, HP scales with level after all). The same generally applies to floor traps. Conserving HP for for surviving traps is a fairly important early game exploration strategy, which means building up some damage-preventing armor (5 PV upwards) tends to be an early priority.


I haven't made it to a good shop yet; only the munxip one, which is food only, and the black market one, which doesn't give you much gold and is too expensive to buy anything from.
shops can be very useful, so it's understandable they're limited; but keeping them from being available in the early game, while letting people use them well later seems like iffy design. in particular, with the wide variance in starting equipment based on race/class, the lack of a shop (and the infrequency of suitable item drops) exacerbates it.

In ADOM, you find items by exploring dungeons, killing monsters and taking their stuff. General purpose shops do exist, but they aren't any more useful than generic item drops like the ones you get just from exploring places. The main use they have is that they will accept any item you try to sell to them - but the main use of all that gold isn't to spend it in those shops. You're more likely to give it to NPCs or sacrifice it on altars.

Figuring out how to use what you find, rather than what you'd like to have, is part of what the game is about. Something as simple as picking up stacks of rocks thinking "hot damn, I can throw these, plus I might find a sling" is an example.


the wiki said that the early game is one of the hardest parts, and many players feel that if you make it past that your odds are a lot better. I dunno if it's true, but there's certainly a number of things which point in that direction, and it's not a difficulty curve I'm fond of; wherein you can end up reaching a mid-game point where the game starts getting a lot easier. I remember that was one of the problems with the otherwise excellent XCOM, if you got a good start, it tended to snowball and the missions would end up being trivially easy stomps and stopped being fun.

I wouldn't call the late game in ADOM harmless or trivial; you still have be vigilant and use the right methods to deal with certain late game creatures. What improves your odds so much is that you will inevitably have accumulated so much stuff and gathered such excellent equipment that there's almost 100% a way to deal with a threat at any given time, and in the rare cases there isn't, there'll definitely be a means of escape so you can turn around and come back.


the scaling of monster threats feels weird: as my character levels up, I have to face stronger monsters; but I haven't grown strong enough to actually beat them. with monsters continually spawning in the dungeons, and it seeming like they scale to match my level, it feels like levelling up is actually a disadvantage; that is, while I get stronger, the monsters growth rate in power is greater than my own, particularly because finding good new gear is rare, and there's no early shops to help address that. why should I take a class/race that levels up faster if that doesn't help me because the monsters are just scaling up with it?

Level scaling exists, but it's very minor. The main determining factor of difficulty is the danger level of the location you're in. If you feel the monsters are getting more dangerous faster than you can handle, you should take a step back and do another early game dungeon, where the monsters will be easy again. The Puppy Cave, the moldy dungeon, Village Dungeon/Druid Dungeon, that kind of thing. Or even venture into the Infinite Dungeon, which gives you an infinitely respawnable supply of monsters of any danger level for xp, though it tends to only drop basic items. (Which is still good enough for spellcasters, since any kind of spellbook is a danger level 1 item.)

[zlefin]

re: silfir
the level scaling seems a bit more than very minor.
I was trying out a farmer (who do of course start out quite weak);
ended up dying at lvl 6. the monsters kept getting tougher (with more advanced and deadly monster types showing up), I stayed in the starter cave for awhile, and then the puppy cave once the starter cave was getting too dangerous, at floor 1 of each. but the monsters kept getting tougher; and I never found any armor. (or at lesat not any with PV)

the level scaling is a lot more than minor (at least for the early game) the monsters get a LOT tougher as you level up, even staying in the same area. the monsters get tougher far faster than I improve from levels.

while I can't know for sure how much better things would be with a proper shop, I do at least suspect that having a decent useable shop might've let me pick up one or two useful items.

[Silfir]

re: silfir
the level scaling seems a bit more than very minor.
I was trying out a farmer (who do of course start out quite weak);
ended up dying at lvl 6. the monsters kept getting tougher (with more advanced and deadly monster types showing up), I stayed in the starter cave for awhile, and then the puppy cave once the starter cave was getting too dangerous, at floor 1 of each. but the monsters kept getting tougher; and I never found any armor. (or at lesat not any with PV)

the level scaling is a lot more than minor (at least for the early game) the monsters get a LOT tougher as you level up, even staying in the same area. the monsters get tougher far faster than I improve from levels.

Honestly, I don't think the level scaling is what's at fault there. At zero PV even the most basic creatures can hit you hard enough to be threatening.

Farmers are not a good baseline in general. They're by design much weaker than the classes with formal combat training.

I would recommend your first stop shouldn't be the starter cave or the Puppy Cave in that case, but the Village Dungeon, accessible by talking to the village elder Rynt in Terinyo before you talk to the Druid. That gives you access to the NPC Jharod, the healer, who can full-heal your PC if need be, and may even teach you the Healing skill if you figure out his quest.

If you start out with only minimal armor, try out taking off all clothing and switching to berserk mode. As long as you're using a melee weapon, you'll enter "true berserk" mode, in which you can generally kill off monsters in one hit even with fairly weak level 1 PCs.

[Gnoman]

One thing that is easy to overlook is the true value of the outlaw shop. Buying from it is a bad idea unless you find something critical in there, but it can get you some very nice IDs early in the game.

[Kaptin Keen]

re: silfir
the level scaling seems a bit more than very minor.
I was trying out a farmer (who do of course start out quite weak);
ended up dying at lvl 6. the monsters kept getting tougher (with more advanced and deadly monster types showing up), I stayed in the starter cave for awhile, and then the puppy cave once the starter cave was getting too dangerous, at floor 1 of each. but the monsters kept getting tougher; and I never found any armor. (or at lesat not any with PV)

the level scaling is a lot more than minor (at least for the early game) the monsters get a LOT tougher as you level up, even staying in the same area. the monsters get tougher far faster than I improve from levels.

while I can't know for sure how much better things would be with a proper shop, I do at least suspect that having a decent useable shop might've let me pick up one or two useful items.

Where did you go, though? I mean, if you go to the small cave, that's bound to end badly. If you know you're comparatively weak, retreat before things get too tough. There's nothing wrong in clearing the first couple of levels of several early dungeons, to level up and get gear so you can handle the deeper levels later.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out the game isn't really trying to be fair - it's trying to be hard. Say you find a room full of traps, literally every square of it. Is that fair, when you need to pass? Nah. But is it unpassable? Likely not. Quite possibly, you have something in your backpack - a wand of teleportation, say, or a wand of monster summoning, or you have a skill that will let you find and disable the traps.

Or, like me, you just take the shortest route, and either shrug it off - or save scum.

[zlefin]

Honestly, I don't think the level scaling is what's at fault there. At zero PV even the most basic creatures can hit you hard enough to be threatening.

Farmers are not a good baseline in general. They're by design much weaker than the classes with formal combat training.

I would recommend your first stop shouldn't be the starter cave or the Puppy Cave in that case, but the Village Dungeon, accessible by talking to the village elder Rynt in Terinyo before you talk to the Druid. That gives you access to the NPC Jharod, the healer, who can full-heal your PC if need be, and may even teach you the Healing skill if you figure out his quest.

If you start out with only minimal armor, try out taking off all clothing and switching to berserk mode. As long as you're using a melee weapon, you'll enter "true berserk" mode, in which you can generally kill off monsters in one hit even with fairly weak level 1 PCs.


it wasn't the most basic creatures that killed me; iirc it was a floating eye. i'll try out some of thsoe other places. but it remains the case that the monsters kept getting alot tougher (and with more advanced monsters appearing), while I wasn't getting much tougher. while still in the starter area, on the first floor.
As a farmer, the problem wasn't the first couple of my own levels, when the monsters are still weak, the fault was still definitely with the level scaling. As my level went up, I had to face stronger and stronger monsters, while I didn't get much benefits from levelling, and certainly nothing compared to the stronger monsters I had to face.
yes, farmers are weak; that doesn't change that level-scaling was a source of the problem.
if the monsters had stayed weak, I'd be fine and could farm them until I got strong enough to go to stronger places; but the monsters don't stay weak.


Where did you go, though? I mean, if you go to the small cave, that's bound to end badly. If you know you're comparatively weak, retreat before things get too tough. There's nothing wrong in clearing the first couple of levels of several early dungeons, to level up and get gear so you can handle the deeper levels later.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out the game isn't really trying to be fair - it's trying to be hard. Say you find a room full of traps, literally every square of it. Is that fair, when you need to pass? Nah. But is it unpassable? Likely not. Quite possibly, you have something in your backpack - a wand of teleportation, say, or a wand of monster summoning, or you have a skill that will let you find and disable the traps.

Or, like me, you just take the shortest route, and either shrug it off - or save scum.

as I said, I went to the starter cave and the puppy cave, and was staying on the first floor of each. I didn't go deep; even on the first floor you start getting much more advanced monsters as you stay there. I didn't go to the small cave.
There's good forms of hard and bad farms of hard. there's a vast amount of known info on game design now about the difference between them. again, remember, this is early game, so you don't have the variety of supplies that provide answers yet.

edit: another thing I find annoying: suddenly appearing traps. that is, an area doesn't have traps; its' already been walked over several times. then all of a sudden it DOES have a trap. new traps spawning on a level is just weird.

[Kaptin Keen]

as I said, I went to the starter cave and the puppy cave, and was staying on the first floor of each. I didn't go deep; even on the first floor you start getting much more advanced monsters as you stay there. I didn't go to the small cave.
There's good forms of hard and bad farms of hard. there's a vast amount of known info on game design now about the difference between them. again, remember, this is early game, so you don't have the variety of supplies that provide answers yet.

edit: another thing I find annoying: suddenly appearing traps. that is, an area doesn't have traps; its' already been walked over several times. then all of a sudden it DOES have a trap. new traps spawning on a level is just weird.

Starter cave is 3 levels, and you should clear all three. You should still retreat if you feel it's growing too hard. But starter cave is easy.

Puppy cave, if memory serves, is 6 levels. The 5th is cavernous - meaning very large rooms, and very high spawn. Also, 2nd level has an ant hive. All of these are dangerous.

Outside of the Small Cave, scaling is definitely survivable. Even as a very weak character, like .. farmer, or merchant. Small Cave will kill you, it's just a matter of time.

You should generally be able to walk into the starter cave, and clear it, no worries. No matter your class or race. You should be able to find a goblin camp somewhere around Terinyo, which will give you some experience, a ton of rocks, and a potential companion. And a pile of loot. Some of which is cursed, btw. Don't worry about that, but it is.

What Tactics setting do you use? It's generally prudent to be Berserk so long as you can stay ranged, then - maybe - switch to something more cautious in melee.

Traps can be dropped by Trappers. I think they're kobolds or goblins or both.

Floating Eyes aren't really dangerous - although they can stun you for one action, I believe. More dangerous varieties will appear later.

What else are good starting tips? Hm. Always train a ranged attack. Snakes, spiders, fire lizards, trolls - all worth snacking on. Blink Dogs too, but rarely leave corpses, so get a pile of summons, then kill. Pixies are also very worth eating, but don't unless you've had some Blink Dog first. Zombies, displacer beasts, dopplegangers - are not food. Giants and the like seem to be yes or no - they can give a bonus or a malus.

Yea. If you keep going, feel free to ask. I've had many, many troubles too =)

[Silfir]

it wasn't the most basic creatures that killed me; iirc it was a floating eye. i'll try out some of thsoe other places. but it remains the case that the monsters kept getting alot tougher (and with more advanced monsters appearing), while I wasn't getting much tougher. while still in the starter area, on the first floor.
As a farmer, the problem wasn't the first couple of my own levels, when the monsters are still weak, the fault was still definitely with the level scaling. As my level went up, I had to face stronger and stronger monsters, while I didn't get much benefits from levelling, and certainly nothing compared to the stronger monsters I had to face.
yes, farmers are weak; that doesn't change that level-scaling was a source of the problem.
if the monsters had stayed weak, I'd be fine and could farm them until I got strong enough to go to stronger places; but the monsters don't stay weak.

[...]

There's good forms of hard and bad farms of hard. there's a vast amount of known info on game design now about the difference between them. again, remember, this is early game, so you don't have the variety of supplies that provide answers yet

edit: another thing I find annoying: suddenly appearing traps. that is, an area doesn't have traps; its' already been walked over several times. then all of a sudden it DOES have a trap. new traps spawning on a level is just weird.

What you've done there is you've collected purely anecdotal evidence and misinterpreted it.

Case in point, floating eyes are very basic monsters that I would certainly expect to show up in danger level 1 areas. They're quite harmless, except for the paralysis, which is easy to avoid by using ranged weapons.

If you don't find anything in the way of armor with most farmers (i.e. the 0 PV ones) you were never safe to begin with. You need PV to protect from damage, otherwise you'll be whittled down by anything, even rats, kobolds, goblins and orcs. You can fairly reliably survive with one as long as you use every tool at your disposal. Use whatever you can scrounge up as thrown weapons, work together with your dog for a while, fight as a true berserker to finish fights instantly, and start in the Village Dungeon so you can badger Jharod for full heals. If all else fails, pray, or run. Farmers have tons of food, you can heal up in the wilderness (you can use > to enter a wilderness square) if need be.

Put in another way, if you die with a farmer, it's not because of level scaling. This is not the hill you want to die on, man.



As for suddenly spawning traps - I suspect a kobold trapmaster. ADOM is not nice.

[Winthur]

Put in another way, if you die with a farmer, it's not because of level scaling. This is not the hill you want to die on, man.

Farmer is one of the few classes that is a mundane fighter, but not even Gray Elves or Dwarves get any good starting gear as a farmer (normally these two races get solid armor most of the time). You shouldn't roll a farmer if you're concerned with early game survival. Even Priests, who are casters, get much better gear.

If you must play a fairly mundane class that has a hard time with early game survival nonetheless in spite of reliance on physical damage and gets worthless starting gear (Thief, Mindcrafter, Farmer), roll a Hurthling (and throw rocks at everything) or Drakeling (spit acid at everything). Or pick up the Heir talent line, the starting present isn't too shabby for these classes. Or get the actual line of PV talents at start (further enhanced by Dwarves).

[Kaptin Keen]

Farmer is one of the few classes that is a mundane fighter, but not even Gray Elves or Dwarves get any good starting gear as a farmer (normally these two races get solid armor most of the time). You shouldn't roll a farmer if you're concerned with early game survival. Even Priests, who are casters, get much better gear.

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I started a farmer - because I never did, and I wanted to know how bad it was - and while they do start in barely a loincloth armor wise, they have a companion, a 2-hander, and training in it's use. They have enourmous amounts of food, tons of skills, get double carrying capacity at 6 (which is much more OP than it sounds). They have archery.

I think farmers can be ... more than adequate.

They do not seem to get a lot of armor drops though. I'm level 9 now, and I've had only one single drop of a leather armor. On the other hand, since they have mining, metallurgy and smithing, I guess they can eventually make their own. I hate crafting in all it's forms and expressions, so I've never tried.

Edit: Aaaahhhh-hahahahahah ...! So he died at level 10, because I got careless. And when I look through his inventory - what do I find other than that 2-handed sword I picked up in the small cave is the eternium one? Say what you will, but it's certainly not without humor =D

[Winthur]

Edit: Aaaahhhh-hahahahahah ...! So he died at level 10, because I got careless. And when I look through his inventory - what do I find other than that 2-handed sword I picked up in the small cave is the eternium one? Say what you will, but it's certainly not without humor =D

Protip: blindly equip pretty much every piece of gear that's unusually lightweight compared to usual items of its type. Especially if the weight is something weird, like a sword that weighs 34 stones (note the weird number; normally item weight ends with a number like 0 or 5). This is almost always a tell-tale sign that you have something made out of a precious metal in your possession. The likelihood that you find something like cursed ultra-light broadsword (+0, 1d7+1) is pretty small and at this point in the game you don't have that much to lose from doing that.

[Cespenar]

Apart from ID'ing by weight, which is super useful, I remember that you could tell different materials by their color as well? I don't know if that's still valid in the graphics version though.

[Silfir]

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I started a farmer - because I never did, and I wanted to know how bad it was - and while they do start in barely a loincloth armor wise, they have a companion, a 2-hander, and training in it's use. They have enourmous amounts of food, tons of skills, get double carrying capacity at 6 (which is much more OP than it sounds). They have archery.

I think farmers can be ... more than adequate.

They do not seem to get a lot of armor drops though. I'm level 9 now, and I've had only one single drop of a leather armor. On the other hand, since they have mining, metallurgy and smithing, I guess they can eventually make their own. I hate crafting in all it's forms and expressions, so I've never tried.

Edit: Aaaahhhh-hahahahahah ...! So he died at level 10, because I got careless. And when I look through his inventory - what do I find other than that 2-handed sword I picked up in the small cave is the eternium one? Say what you will, but it's certainly not without humor =D

You're not wrong at all. There are reasons to play farmers - not having to worry about carrying capacity in any way shape or form as the game progresses is pretty much the biggest one. Archery isn't a substitute for all the lovely combat skills like Alertness, Dodge or Find Weakness, but it's not nothing.

No matter how you slice it (get it?), though, the lack of meaningful armor is a big factor in early game survivability, even with a fairly strong two-handed weapon and true berserk power.

The best farmer out there is probably a drakeling farmer, as others have mentioned. Good odds of Toughness of 20 and higher (which grants natural armor) and you add Alertness, an invaluable skill to have in high-stakes late game combat.

Smithing is used to improve existing armor, and difficult to use in any event. You need an anvil, a forge, a hammer, and practically speaking a pickaxe so you can collect the raw metal. I don't think farmers are more or less likely to get armor drops; it's just that if you're playing a PC that has armor to begin with you don't notice how rare armor drops can be just as a result of RNG variance.



Identifying by appearance is easier in the tileset version, if anything. Unfortunately I play ASCII only again these days, so I don't have a lot of hands-on experience with that.

[Kaptin Keen]

I wonder ...

So my level 1 strat is generally to try for the blanket and the path to HMV at level 1. But! Another options is to just spot the stairs down - which I can more reliably get away with (because then I also give a shot to finding the blanket) - and then returning later, when (if) I get a wand of teleportation.

Because, if you stay, you can also kill Krannach, which is nice, and that's not possible if you fight your way to HMV - you'll be too high level when you get back.

Not that 3k gold is necessarily that important, I guess.

But ... what are some level 1 options to keep in mind? My current ratling farmer is past small cave, and on his way to HMV, incl. blanket. Very happy with that - although I did the same yesterday, only to meet an invincible ogre mage on the level before entry to HMV.

[Winthur]

I wonder ...

So my level 1 strat is generally to try for the blanket and the path to HMV at level 1. But! Another options is to just spot the stairs down - which I can more reliably get away with (because then I also give a shot to finding the blanket) - and then returning later, when (if) I get a wand of teleportation.
You can also simply enter SMC, pick up the scrolls (you can train Literacy if not a Wizard or illiterate by spamming the action to read the scrolls if you're so inclined) and leave. All that matters is that the monsters spawn for a level 1 character so you can later go through the dungeon at your own pace. If you end up returning to the UD->HMV route much later, you may very well have Magic Map, Teleport, Invisibility and other tools to find the exit.


But ... what are some level 1 options to keep in mind? My current ratling farmer is past small cave, and on his way to HMV, incl. blanket. Very happy with that - although I did the same yesterday, only to meet an invincible ogre mage on the level before entry to HMV.
SMC -> UD dive is what a lot of people do because making it all the way through is a good "good luck charm" that unlocks an useful location at the end of it all, but you can also just do Village Dungeon first (from talking to Village Elder and NOT the Druid ), which is extremely important if you don't start with the Healing skill. It's much easier than Druid Dungeon. If you want a feel-good thing to write into your character's .flg (although it's a challenging dungeon, particularly PC:2, 5 and 6), go PC first and save the doggy, otherwise ignore until much later; the guaranteed vault in PC:6 might be a potential surge of power if you enter it at a late clvl anyway.
Roaming the wilderness to get the 3k for Kranach is nice, particularly if you're a Dwarf since the gold might also be a good helping route to a (pre-)crown; I can't think of many items I'd actually want to buy at the early stage of the game (esp. with Barnabas and his prohibitive prices), but 3k is 3k. Maybe Kranach synergizes best with a dive to HMV because Leggot's shop is more accomodating and UD has a great capacity for spawning special features like shops (and also anvils, altars, whatnot).

You can also scum Bug Temple if you're a caster (a couple minutes there with some luck and careful tactics {mostly keeping to the edge of the screen} can yield easy powerlevelling to like 13-14), but you need to have 100 dead PCs in your high score to even access the place.

[Kaptin Keen]

You can also scum Bug Temple

I am utterly terrified of the bug temple. Never been inside - I think I can safely say that I've never had 100 deaths on a single install - but my urge to enter is minimal =)

Addendum - Skree, the skaven ratling farmer:

Skree is now level 14. He's on an epic quest to save a small puppy, which has wandered off to the lowest level of a deep dungeon filled with various terrors. He has found two sets of platemail, an interesting array of weapons, spellbooks (although his learning is low), and he has learned how to read, curtesy of a dark sage. He's doing well, but it was touch and go for a while. On his way to the high mountain village, he'd reached a tension room he simply couldn't beat, and it was the only way onwards. So he had to walk all the way back outside - through the small cave, again - mainly to raid that famous secret goblin camp, to stock up on missiles.

A couple of levels and a giant heap of rocks later, Skree arrived at the high mountain village. On his way through the caves he not only beat that tension room, but two ghosts of past adventurers, and no less than three named enemies, one of then Anu, the Death Jackal. Anu, despite having the most impressive name, was the least impressive of the enemies Skree faced. Also, when the game sees fit to warn of the presence of named enemies, it really should warn about ogre mages too - those are way harder.

Skree has thus far shown remarkable resilience. I think I can safely say that farmers aren't too weak to play. Also, Skree will now enter CoC, which is where I generally die. So there's that.

[zlefin]

What you've done there is you've collected purely anecdotal evidence and misinterpreted it.

Case in point, floating eyes are very basic monsters that I would certainly expect to show up in danger level 1 areas. They're quite harmless, except for the paralysis, which is easy to avoid by using ranged weapons.

If you don't find anything in the way of armor with most farmers (i.e. the 0 PV ones) you were never safe to begin with. You need PV to protect from damage, otherwise you'll be whittled down by anything, even rats, kobolds, goblins and orcs. You can fairly reliably survive with one as long as you use every tool at your disposal. Use whatever you can scrounge up as thrown weapons, work together with your dog for a while, fight as a true berserker to finish fights instantly, and start in the Village Dungeon so you can badger Jharod for full heals. If all else fails, pray, or run. Farmers have tons of food, you can heal up in the wilderness (you can use > to enter a wilderness square) if need be.

Put in another way, if you die with a farmer, it's not because of level scaling. This is not the hill you want to die on, man.



As for suddenly spawning traps - I suspect a kobold trapmaster. ADOM is not nice.

I'll decide what hill I wnat to die on; and I'm just going where the evidence leads me, and the evidence does point to level scaling as a factor, you've not presented any argument that actually counters my point at all. just because farmers are weak and play skill helps mitigates threats doesn't mean level scaling doesn't have a real and palpable effect on what they face and the risk of dying.
attributing causation is a complicated web of factors; but if there's a level scaling effect at all, then it most certainly could have an effect on the death risk.

now, what monsters do you think wouldn't appear in a danger level 1 area like the first level of the starter cave?
so far I've seen ghul, doppleganger, clay statue, chaos brother
I want to know at what point I'll have seen something you wouldn't think you'd hvae to face in a danger level 1 area.

[Kaptin Keen]

so far I've seen ghul, doppleganger, clay statue, chaos brother

It's not a 1:1 sort of thing. You'll meet all sorts of things on level 1 of a starter dungeon. You may even meet something you have no chance against, but then the game has the common courtesy to warn you. You meet other things that you can beat - but will take some effort. Generally, for just the normal stuff, you need to just fiddle with Tactics, maybe zap a wand, drink a potion, something like that.

And of course, never fight in the open. Never let more than one enemy attack you at a time.

Soften enemies with missiles before they close.

The game is certainly hard, but not impossible. And it wouldn't be near as exciting or fun if it wasn't for the constant dread. Read my post above: I tried a farmer, just to see. Not to be an ass, but just because I've never tried the class, and it might legitimately be very hard. Mindcrafters are, for instance (so I hear).

My latest farmer is doing great. Took some tries, and some work, but he's very strong now. He'll surely die around level 10-11 of Caverns of Chaos, they always do - but that's on me. I'm not careful enough. Or, maybe, good enough.

And this farmer? He's faced more really hard enemies than any other I've rolled. And I'm way past 100 characters by now. Which is embarassing, since I've still been no deeper than ... maybe CoC 14 or so?

[Winthur]

Mindcrafters are, for instance (so I hear).

Imagine being a character who starts with caster gear and weapon progression and doesn't shake it off until like level 12, but you are supposed to level as a physical character. Books hardly drop for you and you may very well forget about learning any spells from them anyway. Your first few mind spells are of limited usage, can genuinely hurt you if you attempt to use them against undead, and you can't spellcast from hitpoints in a pinch.

They're much better later in the game, but it's a struggle until you get there and you never shake off certain weaknesses. But hey, you get to cast massive AoE through walls and come with free teleport control.

[Kaptin Keen]

Imagine being a character who starts with caster gear and weapon progression and doesn't shake it off until like level 12, but you are supposed to level as a physical character. Books hardly drop for you and you may very well forget about learning any spells from them anyway. Your first few mind spells are of limited usage, can genuinely hurt you if you attempt to use them against undead, and you can't spellcast from hitpoints in a pinch.

They're much better later in the game, but it's a struggle until you get there and you never shake off certain weaknesses. But hey, you get to cast massive AoE through walls and come with free teleport control.

I've never tried one, but yea: I hear they're hard to play.

Skree the ratling farmer has reached Dwarf Town, meaning he's now not long for the world. He's literate now, and has a pile of blessed scrolls of identify, but I'm not sure I dare cast them, cause I'm afraid he'll fail =(

But he's wonderfully strong, good armor, and a staff of devastation he's learning to use. Robs him of a shield, but ye gods, the damage. Actually, he should be visiting Rehetep soon. See how that goes, he's somewhat light on resistances right now.

[Cespenar]

Imagine being a character who starts with caster gear and weapon progression and doesn't shake it off until like level 12, but you are supposed to level as a physical character. Books hardly drop for you and you may very well forget about learning any spells from them anyway. Your first few mind spells are of limited usage, can genuinely hurt you if you attempt to use them against undead, and you can't spellcast from hitpoints in a pinch.

They're much better later in the game, but it's a struggle until you get there and you never shake off certain weaknesses. But hey, you get to cast massive AoE through walls and come with free teleport control.

Not to mention that you get corrupted by attacking the mind of the corrupted, aka the stuff that you need to kill as quickly as possible.


Skree the ratling farmer has reached Dwarf Town, meaning he's now not long for the world. He's literate now, and has a pile of blessed scrolls of identify, but I'm not sure I dare cast them, cause I'm afraid he'll fail =(

I was skeptical about that bit, and turns out the wiki says that Literacy only governs the chance of reading unidentified scrolls. So you should be safe there.

[Kaptin Keen]

I was skeptical about that bit, and turns out the wiki says that Literacy only governs the chance of reading unidentified scrolls. So you should be safe there.

Oh - that's wonderful! I kinda suspected I'd be ok to cast identified scrolls, but I wasn't sure, and from experience I expect the game to screw me over any chance it gets =)

[Sian]

and even then, the chances to fail is only barely big enough that it's a enough of a issue, that you won't do it in combat

[Maryring]

This thread made me reinstall ADOM. Closed the Chaos gate once long before. I think it was with a Human Wizard, but I don't recall. Considering making an attempt on an ultra ending this time. Or at least getting the Trident. Rolled up a Mindcrafter, never played em before and sheesh. Talk about a tough class to play. Powers that don't work on vermin or undead and corrupt against chaos beasties. And the ice wand I start with has 1 charge. I've found two other wands of fire. One with 1 charge. One with 0 charges. :smallsigh:

Is it just me though, or are starts tougher than I remember them to be though? Corpses seem to drop far less often than I remember, which is a problem because it means I can't use my Acid Spit. I've found some herb patches, but I've mostly gotten cursed herbs of stomachemptia from em. I have found several bows, but only 50 or so arrows in total. And considering I'm... NOT skilled with bows, they plink for 0-1 damage most of the time. I've not found any weapons or armour with a prefix/suffix yet either.

At least regular enemies are easy to fight. Confusion means I'm only attacked 1/8 times, so True Berserk takes care of em.

[Kaptin Keen]

I have found several bows, but only 50 or so arrows in total.

I consider it a must-do to wander around Terinyo until you spot the goblin camp. It gives you enough rocks to throw at things to last a lifetime.

[Maryring]

I don't remember a goblin camp. That something new that's been added to the game, or have I just been missing it all this time?

[Kaptin Keen]

I don't remember a goblin camp. That something new that's been added to the game, or have I just been missing it all this time?

No, it's new. But it's almost sure to spawn in the early game, close to Terinyo. It has goblins, and rocks. Also a swordsman (who may join you) and an ogre. Oh and - spoiler alert.

[Maryring]

So basically worth checking out, even if I'm already level 11. I'll see if I can't find it.