Unarmed Strikes, Natural attacks, and Shield Bash tricks

[JMS]

I am a fan of both DSP and Spheres of Power/Might, and like both.
One thing that I have been playing with is the Fiendbound Maurader Warder, and I realized that thanks to several Equipment Sphere talents (Yes, crisscrossing Third Party, I know) and the Fiends Grips, I could have a weapon that: Has full str to off hand, 1d8 damage on a light weapon, the grapple and reach weapon properties, with no reach dead zone, and the grab universal monster ability! It also counts as a Spiked Gauntlet or Natural Weapon for abilities. That is just the base weapon, and the Equipment Sphere adds the Unarmed Training Talent, making this also an unarmed strike, if not full attacking, and the Gauntlet Shield, letting us Shield Bash. What I would like to know is what you can do with this monster of a weapon.

Stuff that generally boosts Shield Bashes, Unarmed Strikes, Natural attacks, or grappling, as well as anything that just combos well. This is for no active games, and as such, is just theoretical.

[upho]

One thing that I have been playing with is the Fiendbound Maurader Warder, and I realized that thanks to several Equipment Sphere talents (Yes, crisscrossing Third Party, I know) and the Fiends Grips, I could have a weapon that: Has full str to off hand, 1d8 damage on a light weapon, the grapple and reach weapon properties, with no reach dead zone, and the grab universal monster ability!The fiend's grip is undoubtedly the best melee control/debuff weapon in the game. If keeping to TO, I think there are few limits to how many weapon related abilities, tricks and stunts you can add to it.


It also counts as a Spiked Gauntlet or Natural Weapon for abilities.Keep in mind that this isn't actually quite true per the RAW:

"A fiend’s grip is treated as a spiked gauntlet for the purposes Weapon Focus, being discipline weapon for a discipline, and similar feats and abilities."

"A fiend’s grip is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

So depending on which category/type of "abilities" you're thinking of, a fiend's grip is treated as either a spiked gauntlet only, or as both a (manufactured) spiked gauntlet and a natural weapon. These details may very well turn out to be very important, depending on the specifics of the shenanigans you're attempting.


That is just the base weapon, and the Equipment Sphere adds the Unarmed Training Talent, making this also an unarmed strike, if not full attacking, and the Gauntlet Shield, letting us Shield Bash.May be worth noting that a regular (non-spiked) gauntlet is already treated as an unarmed strike. Although the actual rules interactions for "gauntlets as unarmed" are in many cases a bit fuzzy, and more importantly, nothing related I'm aware would actually have any effect on your fiend's grip attacks anyways.

As an alternative to the Sphere talent, you could have your fiend's grips augmented by any- and everything which applies to unarmed strikes by adding the Versatile Design (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-modifications/versatile-design/) weapon mod to your gauntlets (+500 gp) to have them treated as monk weapons, and taking Ascetic Style (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style/). This applies to all attacks you make with your fiend's grips, including those made as part of a full attack or any other action.


What I would like to know is what you can do with this monster of a weapon.

Stuff that generally boosts Shield Bashes, Unarmed Strikes, Natural attacks, or grappling, as well as anything that just combos well. This is for no active games, and as such, is just theoretical.Well, if you're looking to boost your fiend's grips specifically, I don't know of anything which beats a 1-level dip into the Monk of the Silver Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-silver-fist-monk-archetype). This lets you treat your fiend's grip as bucklers and to add their weapon enhancement as a shield enhancement, and gives you nifty related bonus feat, such as Buckler Bash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/feats/buckler-bash-combat/) to have your fiend's grips attacks also treated as shield bashes.

To improve the grappling, two levels of the Primal Disciple barb for the Raging Grappler rage power is pretty darn sweet as well, as is four levels of Tetori monk to allow you to make AoOs while grappling, and the Equipment Trick (rope) for Hogtie.

And there's also the awesome Giant Fist Gauntlets (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-giant-fist/) (20k), allowing you to also make free action bull rushes on every hit with your fiend's grips during up to 20 rounds/day. Vastly superior to the Shield Slam trap feat. Combine with an animal companion/mount/familiar and Paired Opportunists, or the Stance of the Thunderbrand (Piercing Thunder 5), and you can have a pretty awesome surefire AoO-generator, ripe for pulling various powerful Seize the Opportunity stunts. Stunts which I also suspect could easily be made stupidly broken when combined with Spheres stuff boosting the attack action... :smalleek:

And then there's the bonkers size, reach and CMB boost combos possible with other DSP stuff. Such as the Shifting Feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/dreamscarred-press/shifting-feats/) and the Formless Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/dreamscarred-press/formless-master/) PrC from Lords of the Wild, or the Mighty Frame (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/dreamscarred-press/feats/) feat and Mongrel (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/dreamscarred-press/mongrel/) PrC from Bloodforge.

EDIT: And stuff from Akashic Mysteries of course, like Shape Veil for the fitting Storm Gauntlets veil. Combine with Radiant Dawn maneuvers and an Akashic Catalyst to stack a stupid amount of essence into your veil(s). /EDIT

This is just off the top of my head, and I'm unfortunately not even remotely familiar enough with Spheres stuff to give you any tips, but I'm fairly certain there are several great additions hiding there.

[JMS]

Thanks, Upho, for your marvelous picking of holes. I like the trick of Giant Fist Gauntlets. Hmm... Never noticed Shield Slam replaces Attack Roll for CMB. Huh. That makes it lackluster. How does Nelly deal with that? (Your work on her inspired me to dig into this rabbit hole.)
Also, for a recent level one gestalt game, Spheres has the wrestling sphere, with a talent that gives an attack on a successful Grapple... :smallbiggrin:
I will have to weigh Spheres’s Gauntlet Shield with the Silver Fist Monk. They both do very similar things, and I feel split on them. One nice trick, is to ask a Sphere Caster to use bestial reflexes from alteration, for a free trip on each attack.