Should I multiclass? Advice for lvl 9 paladin

[mouseman]

Hi everyone!

I have a lvl 9 vengeance paladin character and I'm thinking of multiclassing. It's a pretty solid character, with plate mail & shield and mounted combatant feat, usually getting advantage through vow of enmity or mounted combatant and still being able to take a beating with high AC and aura of protection (+3 to saving throws at the moment). Another great thing is that I just got haste from my vengeance paladin list so I expect that to see some good use.

The problem I have is that the character is pretty long rest dependent. I can burst some damage with smiting but I burn out very quickly and I have almost nothing on short rest. I'm thinking on dipping to fighter for a couple of levels as I would get some short rest things: action surge and second wind for example. Also if I go three levels in, I could go Champion and get critical hits on 19-20 which would be awesome with my "try to always have an advantage" route. Maybe I could only smite with a critical hit then to make the most out of the spell slots I have?

Anyway - what do you think? Is it a good idea to multiclass at lvl 9? Is fighter a good pick? Have you done it? I'm hesitant to do this because this is my first character in D&D 5e. Any help is much appreciated!

[bid]

IDS will do more than MC, stick to paladin until level 11.
Going warlock would give you some short rest smites, so that's a possibility. But +2d8 using warlock slots vs +1d8 every hit isn't the best pick.

Beyond that, you'd need to break the addiction to nova burst. :smallbiggrin:

[CTurbo]

Honestly l would not multi class. Paladins are so strong as is. I would want all those awesome class features as fast as I could get them.

Plus the more you level up, the more you can do between long rests.

[Malifice]

Hi everyone!

I have a lvl 9 vengeance paladin character and I'm thinking of multiclassing. It's a pretty solid character, with plate mail & shield and mounted combatant feat, usually getting advantage through vow of enmity or mounted combatant and still being able to take a beating with high AC and aura of protection (+3 to saving throws at the moment). Another great thing is that I just got haste from my vengeance paladin list so I expect that to see some good use.

The problem I have is that the character is pretty long rest dependent. I can burst some damage with smiting but I burn out very quickly and I have almost nothing on short rest. I'm thinking on dipping to fighter for a couple of levels as I would get some short rest things: action surge and second wind for example. Also if I go three levels in, I could go Champion and get critical hits on 19-20 which would be awesome with my "try to always have an advantage" route. Maybe I could only smite with a critical hit then to make the most out of the spell slots I have?

Anyway - what do you think? Is it a good idea to multiclass at lvl 9? Is fighter a good pick? Have you done it? I'm hesitant to do this because this is my first character in D&D 5e. Any help is much appreciated!

There is a lot to be gained from a few (3) levels in Warlock and/or Fighter on a Paladin in games with frequent short rests and longer adventuring days.

That said, by the time those abilities come on line (3 more levels) if you stick with Paladin, you get improved divine smite in just 2 more levels (+1d8 damage to every melee attack you ever make, ever).

[JakOfAllTirades]

Stick with Paladin.

And take a level in Resource Management.

[Malifice]

Stick with Paladin.

And take a level in Resource Management.

Im intentionally building my current Paladin to be pretty rest neutral.

3 levels of Warlock (for 2 x 2nd level slots a short rest + hexblades curse 1/ short rest) and 5 levels of Swords Bard (5 x bardic flourishes per short rest) plus 1/ short rest +2d4 to saves from Divine soul.

Added to divine channel, that's around 10 abilities per short rest (5 x flourishes, 1 x curse, 1 x divine channel, 1 x hexblades curse, 2 x 2nd level slots) to use each short rest, couples along with - 13th level casting, 35 points LoH, 5 Divine senses as 'long rest only' stuff.

[torrmh]

Im intentionally building my current Paladin to be pretty rest neutral.

3 levels of Warlock (for 2 x 2nd level slots a short rest + hexblades curse 1/ short rest) and 5 levels of Swords Bard (5 x bardic flourishes per short rest) plus 1/ short rest +2d4 to saves from Divine soul.

Added to divine channel, that's around 10 abilities per short rest (5 x flourishes, 1 x curse, 1 x divine channel, 1 x hexblades curse, 2 x 2nd level slots) to use each short rest, couples along with - 13th level casting, 35 points LoH, 5 Divine senses as 'long rest only' stuff.

I really like this idea, but where do you get 13th level casting from? Should be 11, or did I miss something? 5 levels of Swords Bard + 12/2 Paladin levels = 11?

EDIT: Never mind, I just noticed you had Divine Soul in there too :smallbiggrin: , guessing Ancients 7 and Sorc 5 then

[Sigreid]

I would stay paladin. You'll get more out of it. Perhaps consider spell sniper, selecting EB to get a good cha based ranged attack.

[Composer99]

I would say that the answer to your question depends on the answers to the following questions:

(1) How much longer is the campaign expected to last? Will it end somewhere around 12th level? 15th level (many of the published adventures that Wizards prints end around there)? 20th level?

(2) Does it make sense for your paladin to want to branch out in an exclusively martial direction?

(3) Is the trade-off worth it in your opinion?



Here's what you'd get from a 3-level excursion into fighter:
- another fighting style
- second wind
- action surge
- a martial archetype's 3rd-level feature

Here's what you're giving up:

If the campaign is going to end at 12th level, you're losing out on one 3rd-level spell slot, aura of courage, +1d8 radiant damage on every melee weapon attack, and an ability score improvement.

If the campaign is going on to end at 15th level, you'll get those things (but they'll be 3 levels behind): instead, you'll lose out on two 4th-level spell slots, cleansing touch, and the 15th-level reaction attack against enemies under the effect of your vow of emnity.

If the campaign ends at 20th level, you'll lose out on 1 5th-level spell slot, the extension of your paladin auras out to 30 feet, an ability score improvement, and your avenging angel feature.




Looking at that, it seems to me that the trade-off is least punishing if you're going all the way to 20th level. (Avenging Angel is pretty cool, but I would rate action surge quite a good deal higher.) It also seems to me that the trade-off is most punishing if the campaign is ending in the next few levels, as +3.5 radiant damage on every single melee weapon attack is crazy good. It's also not great if the campaign ends at 15th, as two spell slots plus the reaction attack option is a lot to lose out on, even when you're getting action surge. (Getting a reliable way to use your reaction is gold, IMO.)




When all is said and done, my suggestion is that you should postpone multiclassing until 11th level, and you can happily just not multiclass at all unless you expect to make it to 20th level - but if you do expect to go that far in the campaign, then multiclassing at any time from 12th level on makes sense.

[Zanthy1]

I would recommend sticking with paladin (as someone who multiclassed into warlock to get short rest smites, and hated it). So many cool features paladins get, and they are so powerful straight, plus the capstone is bonkers, easily one of if not my absolute favorite.

Though if the campaign is going to be ending soon, or the party takes tons of short rests all the time, then maybe its more worth it to you. Paladin is one of the few classes though that is best all around when you stay with it.

Also, managing your resources is key. The most common mistake I see in DnD is a player bursting out all their damage on the first encounter. This only is worthwhile if your DM explicitly tells you that its the only encounter y'all're gonna have before a long rest. You don't need to divine smite all the time, nor do you need to cast a spell each round. Be smart; you're a paladin not a savage

[diplomancer]

as you have the mounted combatant feat, I strongly recommend that you stay as a Paladin at least until level 13, to get your Find Greater Steed Spell. You can ignore this advice if your DM allows you to summon a Greater Steed just by using a 4th level slot of Find Steed (if you are multiclassing sorcerer or Bard you would even get it one level in advance in that case, even if you multiclass into warlock you would eventually get it at level 16).

[Vogie]

If you have advantage frequently, and want a little bit more fishing, a single level in Hexblade may be useful. You'll get an expanded crit range once per short rest, and a 1st level spell slot that refreshes on short rest. That will upgrade your nova potential, and give you the smallest amount of short rest refresh.

Another option is a level or two of barbarian. You gain the ability to rage, increasing raw damage output, while becoming harder to kill and limiting your access to spells to just divine smites. You can reframe the rage as a fateful-hour-esque buff that you lean on when you're out of spell slots, or reactively use it when you find an encounter that specifically cracks against your oath, flaw, bond, or ideals. It'll also increase your AC when your pants are down and your armor-less. You may or may not want to grab a second level for Reckless attack and Danger Sense, unless you get excited for that mini smite you get from Zealot or the utility you could pick up from Ancestral Guardian.

[mouseman]

Thank you all for excellent advise!

I most appreciated composer99's breakdown of the pros and cons. The campaign will continue to lvl 20, or that's the plan, so I think it will be best to multiclass after lvl 11 when I get the improved smite!

Now there's lots of nice ideas here so I'll have a couple of levels to think which way I'll go or if I'll just stick to paladin. Keep the ideas coming, if you like, I appreciate them all!

[CTurbo]

Thank you all for excellent advise!

I most appreciated composer99's breakdown of the pros and cons. The campaign will continue to lvl 20, or that's the plan, so I think it will be best to multiclass after lvl 11 when I get the improved smite!

Now there's lots of nice ideas here so I'll have a couple of levels to think which way I'll go or if I'll just stick to paladin. Keep the ideas coming, if you like, I appreciate them all!


Awww man if you know it's going to go to 20 then I wouldn't even consider multiclassing.

[Phoenix042]

Yea, holy hell why would you leave paladin at level 9?! You're two levels away from improved divine smite. Stay till then at least, and maybe till 12 for a feat or ASI.

If you are determined to multiclass for less long rest dependency, then where you go from there heavily depends on your party and your build.

A few levels (or more, really) of hexblade could be useful. Hex isn't as useful to you since you already have hunter's mark, but hexblade's curse is nice and recharges on a short rest, and those short rest recharge smites are nice.

If you go Paladin 11 / Hexblade 9, you get Banishing smite in the end, and two 5th level spell slots per short rest. When you need to nova, you can burn both of them for an attack that gets 1d8 (IDS) + 5d10 (Banishing) + 5d8 (smite) + 5 (ability mod) + 1 (improved pact weapon) bonus damage, something like 60 bonus damage. That's not including other sources of extra damage like magic items or feats, and that also doesn't include the actual attack's base damage.

And god forbid you crit.

Honestly though, high level paladins rock. Single classed paladin is one of the most satisfying and powerful character's to take to 20.

[Citan]

Hi everyone!

I have a lvl 9 vengeance paladin character and I'm thinking of multiclassing. It's a pretty solid character, with plate mail & shield and mounted combatant feat, usually getting advantage through vow of enmity or mounted combatant and still being able to take a beating with high AC and aura of protection (+3 to saving throws at the moment). Another great thing is that I just got haste from my vengeance paladin list so I expect that to see some good use.

The problem I have is that the character is pretty long rest dependent. I can burst some damage with smiting but I burn out very quickly and I have almost nothing on short rest. I'm thinking on dipping to fighter for a couple of levels as I would get some short rest things: action surge and second wind for example. Also if I go three levels in, I could go Champion and get critical hits on 19-20 which would be awesome with my "try to always have an advantage" route. Maybe I could only smite with a critical hit then to make the most out of the spell slots I have?

Anyway - what do you think? Is it a good idea to multiclass at lvl 9? Is fighter a good pick? Have you done it? I'm hesitant to do this because this is my first character in D&D 5e. Any help is much appreciated!
Hi!

Well, mostly....

There is a lot to be gained from a few (3) levels in Warlock and/or Fighter on a Paladin in games with frequent short rests and longer adventuring days.

That said, by the time those abilities come on line (3 more levels) if you stick with Paladin, you get improved divine smite in just 2 more levels (+1d8 damage to every melee attack you ever make, ever).
This (confer also Malifice's post about bringing 5 levels of Bard too, this is a very potent mix. Finish with Sorcerer and you're golden)...

Awww man if you know it's going to go to 20 then I wouldn't even consider multiclassing.
But this even more.
If you have any chance to reach level 20, even if you're only a Vengeance Paladin (honestly the least impressive capstone to my taste) just for the chance at playing a Paladin with 30 feet Aura and Circle of Power stacked upon it, I'd stick with single class unless I'm really pretty sure I'm ok with losing the capstone in favor of a 2-level dip (and with only two levels, I'd rather put them in Bard for Jack of all trades, or a split of single level dips into whichever combination of Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock and if eligible Rogue for quick boost in options).

(I don't get the hype about IDS however, it's honestly a minor buff overall unless you play gritty campaigns or really want to use Haste as your go-to concentration buff. In other cases, considering even an average of 5-6 rounds fights, you really have ways to get, overall, as good or better improvement, just in a different -usually less sustainable, to some extent- way, between concentration buffs, weapon cantrips, special uses of Bardic Inspiration for Bard, Quicken for Sorcerer, short-rest slots for smiting for Warlock).

[Corran]

snip
What are your stats, feats and allies?
Would you consider changing stuff in your build?
Would you consider changing your weapon set up (sword and shield)?

ps: Burning slots to smite is not meant to boost your dpr to bring you on par with actual dpr characters, as you don't have enough spell slots to do that. And even if you did, it wouldn't be a great idea. So if you want good dpr on a vengeance paly, look at things like IDS, GWM and PAM. Dont use haste if you didnt take a feat that boosts concentration (even then use it with caution), and when you use it, target your rogue/SS/GWM ally instead of you (if you are still S&B). More to say on that last one but I'd need to know what the other PC's are. Also, if you are committed to the mounted combatant feat, you might want to plan for at least 13 levels in paladin for the find greater steed spell. Otherwise, why even invest in this feat in the first place? Feats are a very big deal, if you spend a feat for mounted combat, go for the improved mount as well. That would justify better having taken that feat. So either go for both or go for none of them.

[sithlordnergal]

Hi everyone!

I have a lvl 9 vengeance paladin character and I'm thinking of multiclassing. It's a pretty solid character, with plate mail & shield and mounted combatant feat, usually getting advantage through vow of enmity or mounted combatant and still being able to take a beating with high AC and aura of protection (+3 to saving throws at the moment). Another great thing is that I just got haste from my vengeance paladin list so I expect that to see some good use.

The problem I have is that the character is pretty long rest dependent. I can burst some damage with smiting but I burn out very quickly and I have almost nothing on short rest. I'm thinking on dipping to fighter for a couple of levels as I would get some short rest things: action surge and second wind for example. Also if I go three levels in, I could go Champion and get critical hits on 19-20 which would be awesome with my "try to always have an advantage" route. Maybe I could only smite with a critical hit then to make the most out of the spell slots I have?

Anyway - what do you think? Is it a good idea to multiclass at lvl 9? Is fighter a good pick? Have you done it? I'm hesitant to do this because this is my first character in D&D 5e. Any help is much appreciated!

So, personally I would multiclass. I know what you mean by the Paladin is a Long Rest dependent class, and multiclassing can fix that. I'd avoid taking levels in Fighter, cause that won't really net you anything super useful. If I were you I'd multiclass into one of the following:


This is a solid choice. You'll gain some decent control spells, eventually your Bardic Inspiration will become a Short Rest ability, and you'll have some extra skills. I'd go Lore Bard over anything else as it gives you more skills, more spells, and allows you to protect your allies better. You'll lack decent ranged cantrips though, which can hurt



Gonna be honest, this is not my favorite pick. It gives you 1 to 3 level spell slots that recharge on a short rest, and they will be 5th level. You'll also have some great ranged options with Eldritch Blast. Downside is you only get the 1 to 3 spell slots, and your paladin slots will not scale. You'll be stuck with whatever slots you have. But it'll give you short rest stuff



My personal top pick. This will make you better in pretty much every way. You'll have fine ranged options with Firebolt and Chill Touch, if your DM allows Booming Blade then you can snag them for more smites through Quicken Spell. As for resources, it'll take a little while, but you'll have more then enough resources by level 13 and 14. I have a level 15 Paladin who is 9 Paladin / 6 Sorcerer, I'm able to fling out fireballs and smites pretty easily, and I have yet to worry too much about resources. The down side is you still need to be good at resource management, since everything you have is still long rest dependant

[djreynolds]

Aura of courage is immunity versus fear, huge.

11th level is improved divine smite

[Citan]

Aura of courage is immunity versus fear, huge.

11th level is improved divine smite
Totally forgot about that one and agreed with you, with a caveat.
It's huge if you're not a race that already has advantage against frightened and not a Paladin, so you can stick within the 10 feet aura.

For a Paladin himself, between the WIS & CHA proficiency and the +CHA bonus on saves, the risk of being frightened is already slim, slim enough for most of your carreer. Of course if you plan on facing CR 18+ creatures every day the immunity may become important. ^^

Also, if we are talking about multiclassing, grabbing the 11th level in Paladin means instead...
No 5th level Magic Secrets as a Bard dual-class (Circle of Power? Banishing Smite? ;))
No 3rd Metamagic for a Sorcerer (Quicken + Subtle + Extend, what else to ask? ;))
No Patron feature for a Warlock (all are interesting imo).

And it's even "worse" if you consider 11th level for those classes, which means 6th level spells (and a 3rd short rest slot for Warlock).

I know it's not too far from comparing apples to oranges since we have permanent abilities on one side, against usually short (or long) rest based on other side, but still... Considering, from general feedback around here, that most people don't get really harsh days often, I think the question holds value. :)

[djreynolds]

It's a toss up, but paladin is perhaps the best class.

It is put together so well. Vengeance is so cool. It really is.

Because of spells gained, there are no dead levels.

What are you really looking for?

With the bless spell and vow of enmity, dump the shield, grab the family greatsword and go GWM.

You get channel divinity back on a short rest, so use it.

Otherwise grab battlemaster and use precision and bless and GWM

[mouseman]

Wow great replies, again. Allow me to explain some things.

We have a nice group of players and we have played half a dozen different systems before trying D&d 5e. When I rolled the character I had no idea we would be playing this game over a year later. So lots of it was not optimal and a lot was for roleplaying purposes. The more we play, however, the more I want it to be a good character on top of it being a good roleplaying experience.

Allow me to introduce William, son of William. So the character is basically his own version of a stableboy fantasy character - a dumb but well-meaning fellow who downed a fallen paladin in a town tournament with sheer luck and started his own vision quest against the evils in the world. He was supposed to be the nature/ancient paladin but there were some deep cuts and betrayals which lead the promising paladin into more and more darker avenues as he grows in strength.

The party had for the longest time a wizard, a tempest cleric (very much stays behind and cast big aoe spells) and a lore bard. So my character was basically the only melee character with three casters and that is why I wanted to pick mounted combatant to kind of be everywhere at the same time (it has actually been a good combo with a lance and won us some battles). That is probably why I want to have some short rest capabilities for being able to tank and take hits and keep going. However, it should be noted, that William's best fried, the lore bard, was recently killed permanently (because of the party composition we have all been very close to death on multiple occasions) and a monk joined the party. It might be that the new monk will help the front line of the battle a lot and a multiclass is not needed after all.

Right now William has STR/CON/CHA as 16 and rest as 12/10/8 with said mounted combatant feat and resilient feat to get the proficiency in constitution saving throw. So high saves, high AC (defense fighting style), high HP with lay on hands, I can stay alive for the fight but with back to back fights I'll start to have trouble and if I go down, the casters are in great risk of dying.

What I take from this discussion is that I probably shouldn't multiclass with my first character as it clearly requires a lot knowledge about the game system to make a more optimal character than just staying mono. And I don't think the sorcerer or bard routes would work very well for roleplaying purposes (though maybe the warlock thing could work with the vengeance aspect) so that's why I was mainly thinking fighter for short rests and staying alive. The main reason for me to play is the roleplaying but at the same time I don't want him to die because I made some sub-optimal decisions with leveling the class.

Ah, and one other thing, my GM has allowed me to "upcast" find steed as a lvl 3 spell to find CR 1 steeds so I don't have to wait for lvl 13 to get better mounts. But yeah, multiclassing would still push CR 2 mounts back a lot.

Thanks for the help! I'm overwhelmed!

[djreynolds]

Your 9th level, if you decide to grab a level of fighter here or there, which is fine, just know you have something to look forward to when you back to paladin.

But remember improved divine smite is just around the corner, extra 1d8 every attack.

Love to see where your character ends up.

[Citan]

It's a toss up, but paladin is perhaps the best class.

It is put together so well.
That I 100% agree with. Paladin is one of the few classes where you don't feel any "dead" level. In that same bag I'd probably put Rogue, Monk and to a lesser extent Ranger. :)

[mouseman]

That I 100% agree with. Paladin is one of the few classes where you don't feel any "dead" level. In that same bag I'd probably put Rogue, Monk and to a lesser extent Ranger. :)

I literally did not know paladin is considered to be one of the best classes in the game. I felt that after lvl 3 and definitely after lvl 5 it was very, very good and assumed by glancing over the level summary that the peak would maybe be over. It's nice to know there's lots to look forward to.

While we are at it, I get how powerful improved divine smite is but what about lvls 12-20? I mean, spell slots are nice, but full casters trump half caster spells any time of the day. Is is just that a paladin is a balanced character able to survive and help his/hers party in different situations? I see a lot of great utility in the coming spells.

[stoutstien]

I literally did not know paladin is considered to be one of the best classes in the game. I felt that after lvl 3 and definitely after lvl 5 it was very, very good and assumed by glancing over the level summary that the peak would maybe be over. It's nice to know there's lots to look forward to.

While we are at it, I get how powerful improved divine smite is but what about lvls 12-20? I mean, spell slots are nice, but full casters trump half caster spells any time of the day. Is is just that a paladin is a balanced character able to survive and help his/hers party in different situations? I see a lot of great utility in the coming spells.
Immunities
Aura of courage
Larger aura
More lay on hands
Cleansings touch

Mostly the spell slots are the least important things the pally gets

[CTurbo]

I literally did not know paladin is considered to be one of the best classes in the game. I felt that after lvl 3 and definitely after lvl 5 it was very, very good and assumed by glancing over the level summary that the peak would maybe be over. It's nice to know there's lots to look forward to.

While we are at it, I get how powerful improved divine smite is but what about lvls 12-20? I mean, spell slots are nice, but full casters trump half caster spells any time of the day. Is is just that a paladin is a balanced character able to survive and help his/hers party in different situations? I see a lot of great utility in the coming spells.


Paladins are stacked at nearly every level. They all get multiple great Auras that extend to 30ft out at level 18. This makes life hell on a DM trying to pose a threat to the party when the Paladin will trivialize most anything the DM can throw at them. Just because the Paladin will never be a full caster doesn't mean that it's spell slots aren't awesome because the Paladin has awesome spells especially a Vengeance Paladin.


Level 11 is Improved Smite which needs no introduction
Level 12 is ASI or feat. Bumping Str, Con, or Cha is boring but very effective. or take a very good feat like Sentinel or Inspiring Leader
Level 13 gets you 4th level spell slots which are all strong. You get Banishment and Dimension Door automatically. I'll call out Find Greater Steed, Aura of Life, and a rare for Paladin AOE damage spell Ice Storm, but really they're just about all great.
Level 14 is Cleansing Touch which is very strong
Level 15 improves your Vow of Enmity so you can make a melee attack with your reaction every single time that enemy makes an attack against anybody.
Level 16 is ASI or feat. Paladins are starved for ASIs so I would want as many of these as possible.
Level 17 gets you 5th level slots which are all strong. You get Hold Monster and Scrying automatically. I'll call out Holy Weapon, Circle of Power, and Wall of Force, but really they're just about all great.
Level 18 improves your Auras from 10ft to 30ft. Aura of Protection by itself is already one of the strongest abilities in the game for any class. Making it 30ft radius is just ridiculously awesome. It might not seem like it but going from 10ft to 30ft radius is nearly 8x bigger area.
Level 19 is ASI or feat. Bumping Str, Con, or Cha is boring but very effective. or Take a very good feat like Sentinel or Inspiring Leader, or even Mobile to boost your fly speed you're about to get.
Level 20 gets you a 60ft flying speed, and enemies have to make a saving throw or become frightened of you just by coming within 30ft of you. Awesome.


So yeah like I said, I wouldn't even consider multiclassing.

[Corran]

The party had for the longest time a wizard, a tempest cleric (very much stays behind and cast big aoe spells) and a lore bard.
What your group is lacking more than anything else, is good single target dpr.
Blasting is more than covered with a wizard and a tempest cleric as a backup, debuffing/buffing is also covered by all three of your allies (and you can bless to help with saves and concentration during difficult fights), battlefield control is also covered by your allies (your contribution here is that you can smite with your OA's, though your allies are responsible for solid cc, you just add to whatever they are doing). Recovery is covered by both the bard and the cleric (and you can back that up with aura of vitality at least as far as out of combat healing goes).
Tanking is somewhat lacking, especially since your tempest cleric is choosing to play as a caster in this setup. Have them wear a heavy armor, don a shield, and step into the front line with you (concentrating on spirit guardians when necessary, dodging with their action even if they have to; they should also invest in concentration despite how your aura of protection can help them with that), and share the tanking responsibility with you. Even then, it will take some solid cc to keep the wizard and the bard safe (or alternatively, good avoidance tactics through mobility or whatever other means, on the wizard's and bard's part).

But single target dpr is your party's Achilles' heel here. That's why you have been 'forced' to burn your slots in order to smite with that intensity. Or so I suspect. Being a vengeance paladin, means that you can achieve good dpr without depending that much on smites (at least a lot less than other paladin oaths would). So, in this party, you are the ideal character to aim for covering that lack of dpr. Though you wont do it by counting on smite. There are more efficient ways to go about it. IMO, the most efficient way to go about it (given your oath), is to proceed with paladin levels. I would aim for:
1) Improved divine smite (lvl 11)
2) PAM, spear/quarterstaff + shield (lvl 12), for bonus action attacks with IDS
3) Soul of vengeance (lvl 15), for reaction attacks with IDS
4) GWM, halberd/glaive (lvl 16); you could take PAM and GWM in the opposite order if you think it's better (didn't run the math; though if you do, make sure to incorporate in there somehow the added +2 AC from spear + shield, cause that plays a part too, especially in your group set up which means you will -hopefully- be at the other end of many attacks)
5) You could boost STR if you don't have a relevant item already at lvl 19 if you really wanted to (lvl 19); optional, as there might be better choices.

Now, the good thing, is that you aim for these things while also grabbing higher level features. It's always a good thing if you can achieve what you really need (in this case dpr increase) while leveling in one class, cause generally there is more value in higher level features than in lower level ones. So while leveling up, you get all kind of good stuff, like higher level spells (and slots obviously, which means more smiting, though be careful how you handle this, cause there is some very nasty competition from some good spells), aura of courage, cleansing touch, more lay on hands points, whatever else I don't remember now.

So yeah, that's what I would do. I would advance in paladin levels, because I think what you really need to aim for in this party is to increase your dpr, and given you are a vengeance paladin, I think the best way to increase your dpr is by taking more levels in paladin. Though try to convince your cleric to help you with frontline duty, also try to tell both the bard and the wizard to invest in ways that will help them be safe (either through battlefield control, ie zone spells, minions, etc, or through great avoidance tactics, like teleports, gr invisibility, etc. Or even better, a combination of both).

Edit: Lacking solid ranged dpr (not just you, the whole party), is still a serious drawback which somehow must be addressed (again, not just by you, but by the whole party; your best way to address that IMO, given that you aim at maximizing dpr at the same time, is not through grabbing a ranged attack cantrip, but by ensuring great mobility, through a hasted flying mount, misty step/dimension door, etc -even the capstone helps with that if you go all the way up to level 20-, so that you can be where you have to be in order to deal the melee damage which you are optimizing; ie with stuff you will already gain by leveling as a vengeance paly, so once again, this is certainly very convenient).

Edit 2: Derp. Bard died, monk joined. Missed that part. Not sure how much this changes the accuracy of what I said above, as I am not very familiar with what monks can do. Optimization aside, a cool idea (IMO) would be to take some levels in bard, to honor your character's dead bard friend . You know, taking up their musical instrument and start learning to play some music to honor their memory, hence the levels in bard. Personally I am not a big fan of this mc combo, but I like the idea. Though you could always go about it just by picking a musical instrument (tool) proficiency during downtime, thus without affecting your character build.

[djreynolds]

You could grab spell sniper and snag eldritch blast. Now you have a ranged attack, just sheath your sword before you do it.

Adds some flexibility without missing out on everything paladins get.

[Snowbluff]

Short Rest Smites? Take 5 levels of whisper bard instead?

3d6 psyhic blades cha times per short rest.
Jack of All Trades
Expertise
More spell slots and some spells (I'm probably biased towards more spells).

[Arkhios]

Crash course to Resource Management for Paladins:

Preserve Divine Smites for Critical Hits only

Done. Have a nice day!

As for the actual question? I tend to agree with others: Paladin is strong as is, and every level gives you something very tempting and incredibly useful.

10th level? become immune to fear? sign me up!
11th level? Improved Divine Smite - a bonus 1d8 radiant damage with every melee weapon hit you make, ever, at zero cost of resources? Definitely worth the wait!
12th level? Another Ability Score improvement? Well, duh... Of course you want it.
13th level? 4th level spells (and slots). Who wouldn't like Aura of Life, Aura of Purity, Banishment, Death Ward, or - most importantly - Find Greater Steed? Well, I wouldn't want to miss any of those.
14th level? Cleansing Touch: Use an action to end the effect of one spell on yourself or on one willing creature that you touch? Oh boy, that's huge! Definitely a yes.
15th level? Oath feature. For Oath of Vengeance, you can use your reaction to make additional attack outside your turn against the target of your Vow of Enmity if it makes an attack and is within your reach. This attack benefits from Improved Divine Smite, too.
16th level? Again, another Ability Score improvement.
17th level? 5th level spells (and slots). Again, how could you say no to these goodies: Circle of Power, Destructive Wave (oh, wow!), Holy Weapon, and Raise Dead?
18th level? The radius of your auras increases from 10 ft. to frikkin' 30 ft!
19th level? ASI. Why am I even asking?
20th level? As Oath of Vengeance, for 1 hour per long rest, you grow wings. Plus you become a menacing sight, making lots of creatures afraid of you with great benefits for you and your allies.

[jdolch]

Crash course to Resource Management for Paladins:
Preserve Divine Smites for Critical Hits onlyYou wouldn't have to be that stingy, if you go Sorcadin. And oftentimes you have to kill something NOW and not 5 rounds from now when you happen to get a critical.


As for the actual question? I tend to agree with others: Paladin is strong as is,Paladin is strong, but not optimal.


and every level gives you something very tempting and incredibly useful.meh


10th level? become immune to fear? sign me up! It's good, but you should already have 4 or 5 added to your saving throws
11th level? Improved Divine Smite - a bonus 1d8 radiant damage with every melee weapon hit you make, ever, at zero cost of resources? Definitely worth the wait!It's good. Worth the wait? Not really
12th level? Another Ability Score improvement? Well, duh... Of course you want it.Depends on your build but it's not like you wouldn't get that with multiclassing
13th level? 4th level spells (and slots). Who wouldn't like Aura of Life, Aura of Purity, Banishment, Death Ward, or - most importantly - Find Greater Steed? Well, I wouldn't want to miss any of those.None of those are bad, but now we are really going to feel the opportunity cost, if you went Sorcerer at Paladin6, you'd get sorcerer 4th level now as well as 2nd paladin. And this is also when Sorcadin really takes off, so its going to get worse from here
14th level? Cleansing Touch: Use an action to end the effect of one spell on yourself or on one willing creature that you touch? Oh boy, that's huge! Definitely a yes.
15th level? Oath feature. For Oath of Vengeance, you can use your reaction to make additional attack outside your turn against the target of your Vow of Enmity if it makes an attack and is within your reach. This attack benefits from Improved Divine Smite, too. And here you are sitting still at 4,3,3,2 spell slots, when you could already be at 4,3,3,3,2,1 and slinging fireballs left and right in addition to many more smites.
16th level? Again, another Ability Score improvement.Still need ASIs at 16? Oh my. And yes, you would still get this as Sorcadin
17th level? 5th level spells (and slots). Again, how could you say no to these goodies: Circle of Power, Destructive Wave (oh, wow!), Holy Weapon, and Raise Dead?
18th level? The radius of your auras increases from 10 ft. to frikkin' 30 ft!
19th level? ASI. Why am I even asking? Why are you still pretending that this is gold? If you still need ASIs at 19 you definitely did something wrong.
20th level? As Oath of Vengeance, for 1 hour per long rest, you grow wings. Plus you become a menacing sight, making lots of creatures afraid of you with great benefits for you and your allies.Actually none of that is better than what you'd get as a Paladin6/Sorcadin14. Not by a long shot.

Is Paladin20 weak? No.
Is Sorcadin 6/14 better? Yes.

At least get 2-3 levels Warlock for Paladin 17/Hexblade3 and become SAD.

I like the Idea of going pure Paladin. And it is also pretty strong, but lets not pretend that it's optimal. It is not.

[Arkhios]

You wouldn't have to be that stingy, if you go Sorcadin. And oftentimes you have to kill something NOW and not 5 rounds from now when you happen to get a critical.

Paladin is strong, but not optimal.

meh



Is Paladin20 weak? No.
Is Sorcadin 6/14 better? Yes.

At least get 2-3 levels Warlock for Paladin 17/Hexblade3 and become SAD.

I like the Idea of going pure Paladin. And it is also pretty strong, but lets not pretend that it's optimal. It is not.

Oh, pardon me. I didn't realise you were the ultimate authority to judge how it is or isn't optimal. /sarcasm.

[jdolch]

Oh, pardon me. I didn't realise you were the ultimate authority to judge how it is or isn't optimal. /sarcasm.

You don't have to be an authority to use your head and compare what you get at each level going both routes. Try it sometimes.
To make this easier: Here's a quick and Dirty Sorcadin Progression (it is 7/13 instead of 6/14 because i played Devotion in CoS, but you get the idea.)
Q&D Sorcadin Progression 7/13 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UozwGlSKhrNawQUOs3WkHvbihcyg2cIY)

[Arkhios]

You don't have to be an authority to use your head and compare what you get at each level going both routes. Try it sometimes.

Dude. Just because I have different preferences doesn't mean I don't use my head. I'm aware you can become (relatively) better at one or two things (which, in this case, are more spell slots to burn and slightly more spells known). But multiclassing is always a "lose some, gain some" situation. A pure paladin is amazing on its own. I disagree you would have to multiclass to be "better". Paladin is more than just a high damage dealing murder machine. They have useful spells to use, in - and out of - combat. Plus, it doesn't hurt you to let others have their fun in and out of combat as well, instead of trying to dominate it all on your own.


To make this easier: Here's a quick and Dirty Sorcadin Progression (it is 7/13 instead of 6/14 because i played Devotion in CoS, but you get the idea.)
Q&D Sorcadin Progression 7/13 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UozwGlSKhrNawQUOs3WkHvbihcyg2cIY)

Trust me. I don't need to be shown a run-down of level progression for a multiclassed character. I've been building characters for fun (more so than getting to actually play all of them) since around 2002 (that's 16, or rather almost 17 years of 'using my head' in this regard, thankyouverymuch), from 3rd edition to 3.5th edition to 4th edition to pathfinder to 5th edition, and back and forth.

[jdolch]

Dude. Just because I have different preferences doesn't mean I don't use my head. I'm aware you can become (relatively) better at one or two things (which, in this case, are more spell slots to burn and slightly more spells known). But multiclassing is always a "lose some, gain some" situation. A pure paladin is amazing on its own. I disagree you would have to multiclass to be "better". Paladin is more than just a high damage dealing murder machine. They have useful spells to use, in - and out of - combat. Plus, it doesn't hurt you to let others have their fun in and out of combat as well, instead of trying to dominate it all on your own.



Trust me. I don't need to be shown a run-down of level progression for a multiclassed character. I've been building characters for fun (more so than getting to actually play all of them) since around 2002 (that's 16, or rather almost 17 years of 'using my head' in this regard, thankyouverymuch), from 3rd edition to 3.5th edition to 4th edition to pathfinder to 5th edition, and back and forth.


Have i offended you? I am sorry. But i had to balance some of your biased, overenthusiastic analysis, because it just doesn't reflect reality. Sorry if you don't like this. Maybe next time you can just dazzle me with your vast amount of knowledge and then i can just agree with you.

[Malifice]

I really like this idea, but where do you get 13th level casting from? Should be 11, or did I miss something? 5 levels of Swords Bard + 12/2 Paladin levels = 11?

EDIT: Never mind, I just noticed you had Divine Soul in there too :smallbiggrin: , guessing Ancients 7 and Sorc 5 then

Mechanically Ive built it to always have a resource to throw down and to be pretty rest neutral.

For at-will abilities It has cantrips, ritual casting, GWM + Extra attack, expertise in 2 skills and jack of all trades.

Can still Nova when the need arises with quickened GFB, GWM +extra attack and Smites.

No matter the length of the adventuring day, I can remain functional and effective.

[mouseman]

What your group is lacking more than anything else, is good single target dpr...


Thank you for a thorough party analysis! We definitely could use a ranger in our previous setup! We'll see how it goes and try to get the cleric to join the first line - as of now he is mostly prone 120 feet from action casting lightning from the sky! :D But yeah, you nailed why I've been in this spread-too-thin situation for a long time (though it's been a lot of fun, too! - not every party composition has to be optimal)

As for the two level by level analysis, thank you a lot! It seems the game is about to change - it's not so much about having high AC and dealing X amount of damage, but all kinds of nasty disables and spell effects which the paladin is good at countering. This is actually something I much rather do than just smite more. Plus I don't see a way for my character to become a sorcerer, in game, though I must admit the bard dip would now be kind of possible, roleplaying-wise.

Again, thanks for all the ideas and analysis on my situation. I've been given lots to thought about but in the end I think mono paladin is something I really want to experience and I hope having a second melee character in the party (the new monk) will help my survivability some.

[CTurbo]

Thank you for a thorough party analysis! We definitely could use a ranger in our previous setup! We'll see how it goes and try to get the cleric to join the first line - as of now he is mostly prone 120 feet from action casting lightning from the sky! :D But yeah, you nailed why I've been in this spread-too-thin situation for a long time (though it's been a lot of fun, too! - not every party composition has to be optimal)

As for the two level by level analysis, thank you a lot! It seems the game is about to change - it's not so much about having high AC and dealing X amount of damage, but all kinds of nasty disables and spell effects which the paladin is good at countering. This is actually something I much rather do than just smite more. Plus I don't see a way for my character to become a sorcerer, in game, though I must admit the bard dip would now be kind of possible, roleplaying-wise.

Again, thanks for all the ideas and analysis on my situation. I've been given lots to thought about but in the end I think mono paladin is something I really want to experience and I hope having a second melee character in the party (the new monk) will help my survivability some.


You'll really appreciate having a straight level Paladin.

WHY in the world is the Tempest Cleric playing that way??? What a complete waste of probably the best overall Cleric domain. I've played 4 different Tempest Clerics, 2 Str builds, and 2 Dex builds, and 3 of them were all up in melee all the time, and the other was usually right behind the front line with Spell Sniper + Booming Blade + Whip. 2 of them were THE party tanks.

[Citan]

What your group is lacking more than anything else, is good single target dpr.
Blasting is more than covered with a wizard and a tempest cleric as a backup, debuffing/buffing is also covered by all three of your allies (and you can bless to help with saves and concentration during difficult fights), battlefield control is also covered by your allies (your contribution here is that you can smite with your OA's, though your allies are responsible for solid cc, you just add to whatever they are doing). Recovery is covered by both the bard and the cleric (and you can back that up with aura of vitality at least as far as out of combat healing goes).
Tanking is somewhat lacking, especially since your tempest cleric is choosing to play as a caster in this setup. Have them wear a heavy armor, don a shield, and step into the front line with you (concentrating on spirit guardians when necessary, dodging with their action even if they have to; they should also invest in concentration despite how your aura of protection can help them with that), and share the tanking responsibility with you. Even then, it will take some solid cc to keep the wizard and the bard safe (or alternatively, good avoidance tactics through mobility or whatever other means, on the wizard's and bard's part).

But single target dpr is your party's Achilles' heel here. That's why you have been 'forced' to burn your slots in order to smite with that intensity. Or so I suspect. Being a vengeance paladin, means that you can achieve good dpr without depending that much on smites (at least a lot less than other paladin oaths would). So, in this party, you are the ideal character to aim for covering that lack of dpr. Though you wont do it by counting on smite. There are more efficient ways to go about it. IMO, the most efficient way to go about it (given your oath), is to proceed with paladin levels. I would aim for:

It's funny how, from the same basic assessment "what party needs now is heavy single-target damage", you and I would come to so different conclusions as to what would be the best way to tackle it.

As far as single target nova goes, the best is imo by far grabbing Whispers Bard levels, immediately to boot.
You could certainly, by level 20, as a pure Vengeance Paladin, deal solid damage once per day thanks to 3(weapon attack + max smite) but that also means you used all 4th slots immediately. And for what? (I don't care about reduced PAM die, I'll just substract 3 on the average)
3*(1d10+1d8+5+5d8) = 3*(5.5+5+6*4.5) = 3*(11.5+27) = 88.5 on average.

You could also deal pretty decent sustained normal damage every encounter most days by maintaining Haste for a total of 4 attacks with IDS.

But comparing that to a Paladin 9 / Whispers Bard 11?
You could play the same, losing 1d8 on every attack but having 5*5d6 bonus damage to apply between short rests.
You could also (up)cast Shadow Blade as 3rd level spell (like Haste) as a bonus action then...
- Use Booming Blade: you deal in a single turn shadow blade damage + booming blade damage + whispers damage = 3d8+5+3d8+5d6 = 6d8+5d6+5 = average 27+5+17.5 = 49.5
- Use Extra Attack: 2*(3d8+5)+5d6 = 27+5+17.5 = 49.5.

Soooo, the dual-class is far less effective right?
Well, actually no.
First off, those maths have no smite added. And as a multiclass, even if it's not the optimal build for smite maximization, while at level 20 the difference isn't that big (because those same 1st to 4th level slots are useful for both smites and spells so resource management is still hard), for the best half of your life you can more often afford to use slots on smites or buffs.
Second, the math above is extremely sustainable, since it uses only a small amount of resources, half of which are sustainable on a short rest, the other being low level slots. And Bard has many tools available to enable short rest, with Catnap and LTH being prime.
Third, feats have yet to be taken into account. PAM is of course out, and Dual Wielder is anti-synergistic with Shadow Blade. However, Warcaster+Sentinel would allow you to chain another Booming Blade (+ potential Whispers,+ potential smite).

So if you really want to nova as hard as you can against a single enemy, being a 11+4 = 15th level caster, you could upcast Shadow Blade as a 7th level spell for 5d8 damage then go either straight up self-turn nova with Extra Attack or bet on a Booming Blade triggering another OA (with Warcaster and/or Sentinel). In both case using a 4th level smite on each weapon attack
Single-turn (Extra Attack) way: 2*(5d8+5+5d8) = 2*(50) = 100.
Dual-turn (Booming Blade only) way: 5d8+3d8+5+5d8 (turn 1) + (3d8 + (5d8+3d8+5+5d8) (turn 2 with damage triggered by move enabling OA, I expect the enemy won't trigger second BB's rider)
= 2*(13d8+5) + 3d8 = 2*(58.5+5) + 13.5 = 127 + 13.5 = 140.5
Of course, there are other possibilities in-between depending on what you use on first turn and what you picked as feat to help triggering OA and what you can do upon it.

But thing is, not only do you make a nova which average damage is above a pure Paladin whatever happens, but proportionally the chunk of resources you consume for that is far less since part of it replenish on short rest.
And you also get many other tools that help you in and out of combat.

And I didn't even consider (because it does depend on many DM factors) the possibility of having a Find Familiar with a Ring of Spell Storing that could cast another buff on you.
Nor did I consider eating a Bard's 6th level spells to instead pick Hexblade Warlock (partly because bonus actions are already crowded enough as is, partly because 6th level spells are great).

I'm not saying that this particular dual-class is "overall better than Paladin" because end-Paladin has many great things.
But as far as "making a nova dealer" goes, I think this one is straight in and out (while being far inferior to the best nova damage that could theorycrafted but that's another matter ^^).

[stoutstien]

Honestly I think they should have made the combat goal more of a 5-8 round standard instead of 3.

[djreynolds]

Improved divine smite is 2 levels away. It's very good.

Now what spells are you using to concentrate on?

Your auras are for everyone in the party, 10ft circle. Later 30ft

I like booming blade, but it's 1 attack. At 12th level, say multiclassed or took sorcerer magic initiate.

1d8 sword, 2d8 BB, 1d8 improved divine smite.
Where 2 sword attacks are 2d8 and 2d8 improved divine smite.

Not that big of difference

What are your stats? Got a 13 in dexterity, grab rogue swashbuckler and just fight with a rapier.

Paladin of vengeance/ swashbuckler, cool and thematic.

The multiclass choices are endless, the real question is why? You're 9th level, what has influenced this change.

Bard? Perhaps you need to research foes?

Warlock? Perhaps you've really sold your soul for vengeance.

Make this need to multiclass fit, and not for a big slice of CHEESE. Why? For gimmicky extra damage?

You've survived 9 levels, what has made this change so necessary, that might have to set aside you oath for a few levels.

It's okay, perhaps this new enemy is forcing you to bring new tools to bear.

[diplomancer]

I would definitely stay as a Paladin, especially in your caster-heavy party. All the greater utility that you could get from multiclassing is already covered by your caster pals. If I did multi-class (and here I'm talking just from an optimization perspective, only do it if you would be happy with it from a Roleplaying perspective), it would be for 1 level in Hexblade, as being SAD and having access to the shield spell is a considerable advantage. The improved crit range against some foes is just gravy on top of that.

For greater damage, consider, at level 12, getting the Polearm Master feat, which is now more powerful because of improved divine smite, and using either a quarterstaff or a spear - you can use it according to the latest PHB errata; if your fighting style is Defense and not Duelling, and you believe you can forgo 2 AC, you could get a glaive or a halberd if you prefer (though in that case you would not be SAD even if you got 1 level in Hexblade, you would have to go 3 levels for that).

However, you really don't want to miss out in the Find Greater Steed spell, since you have the mounted combatant feat, or the Holy Weapon spell; that spell in particular, combined with Polearm Master, will net you far greater damage than having 3 extra slots to smite with, which is what you would get if you went Sorcerer or Bard now (we are talking an extra 6d8 damage per round, if you hit all your attacks, which, due to advantage, you probably will).

Oh, and, at the appropriate level, which is campaign dependent, try to come up with an interesting story for getting a Holy Avenger staff/spear - if it sounds fun, your DM will probably cooperate with you in that direction.

[Citan]

Honestly I think they should have made the combat goal more of a 5-8 round standard instead of 3.
I really don't get how you would conclude that the target goal of duration is 3.
As I said to someone else in another thread, the only thing referencing such duration (AFAIK) is the DMG guidelines to determine the CR of a custom creature... But party is not supposed to fight ONE creature usually. In other words, it's not because you can assume one *creature* would usually die in three rounds that you can assume the *fight* will be over in three rounds (unless enemy party is equal or less in numbers than PCs and of average CR for the level).

There are many factors that can come into play to lengthen a fight, either tactics (creatures reducing ability of party to harm them through cover/reach block/spells/hazards), or sheer number compared to mass-clean tools party has (maybe no blaster, or maybe depleted resources), or alternative priorities than "kill everything in sight".

In fact, the goal target was very probably around 6-8 rounds per encounter. Otherwise, why would so many spells (fight-related especially) have either a round or a minute duration?

(Also, although it's indeed just one particular example with no objective of representativity of what's common all-around, in my games, 5 rounds is usually the minimum, and the extremes so far have been 2 and 14 respectively, usually as a result of combining everything suggested above).

[mouseman]

WHY in the world is the Tempest Cleric playing that way??? What a complete waste of probably the best overall Cleric domain. I've played 4 different Tempest Clerics, 2 Str builds, and 2 Dex builds, and 3 of them were all up in melee all the time, and the other was usually right behind the front line with Spell Sniper + Booming Blade + Whip. 2 of them were THE party tanks.

This is something the other party members and me have been wondering.. :D As a player, he is usually very careful, paranoid even, and that carries to all his characters. He really, really does not want to die. Or take a hit. I think he'll join my paladin for the auras as the campaign progresses or the GM will surely punish him for staying 120 feet back pretty much alone. At the start of the campaign we ate some pretty devastating AOE spells and I had no auras to help him, so I think he is still playing according to the situation at the first levels in the campaign.

As for other great advises and calculations, I think the main idea for a mono paladin is that he is kind of ready for anything and has means to overcome disables and other high level encounter stuff. So, if you only calculate damage, sure, you can get a better number with multiclass. But our GM is notorious for attacking our weakspots, targeting casters, ambushes and sending wizards to fight us. Our last battle lasted 12 turns. So I think in that setting, seeing that we really are planning on going for the full 20 levels, I will be more of use with a mono paladin.

However, my character will be returning his best friend's legendary lute to the fallen bard's halfling town.. so there would be an excellent roleplaying chance to get a couple of levels of bard once the party is done with the current quests (maybe the paladin is level 11-12 then, already..) I've some time to think on it, as I think it would be one of the only fitting multiclasses besides fighter, and I'll consider your good advise when I do so!

[Corran]

It's funny how, from the same basic assessment "what party needs now is heavy single-target damage", you and I would come to so different conclusions as to what would be the best way to tackle it.
Yep. I mean, I am not surprised. It is very difficult to draw the same conclusions when looking at the same 'dnd problem', because there are so many different ways you can go about it. And everyone makes their assumptions. I mean, even without assumptions it is very difficult to compare the dpr of two builds that use different resources that recharge on different rate, have different hit chance and use different action economy. That aside, I was making some big assumptions when I was offering my suggestion, which I didn't let on. These are the following two. Firstly, I am not a fan of palabards (to a lesser extent, I am not a fan of shadow blade), always talking about the mechanics, no problem with fluff. Secondly, and this is the big one, I am of the opinion, that if you can achieve your goals sufficiently by staying singleclassed (and by goals, I mean either optimize an aspect of your character that you think it is really crucial for you to optimize, or cover a weakness of your character build that you think it will hurt you significantly and/or often, or aim at some very specific synergy that you want for a very important reason), then don't bother with multiclassing. And I don't say this because of some rp angle of sorts, I consider it a good rule of thumb (that has its exceptions of course) as far as optimization goes. I realize that these two opinions can be heavily debated and I am pretty sure you don't agree with them, but I mention them to kind of justify why I wont go into comparing two builds, when one of which does not impress me (for reasons I did not account for).

Before crunching any numbers, I think it is important to be on the same page regarding how we are approaching combat. Only then can number crunching say something to both of us, because if we don't agree on some basic parameters, we will come up with different numbers and conclusions. Saying that, let me explain why I am not impressed by either psychic blades or shadow blade on a vengeance paly.

First, psychic blades. Now, psychic blades is more of a nova ability rather than a dpr boost IMO, but I get it, it recharges on short rests so it can be viewed as either or as a good/bad compromise between the two, and in the end this distinction is not very important. But what's the plan here? Do we want it mainly as a dpr boost or as additional nova? As a dpr boost it falls behind improved divine smite, particularly if we also have PAM. Now, how far behind it falls, also depends on the short rest - encounter ratio, but even if we ignore that, we can just say that it falls behind IDS. Of course, we could aim at a build grabbing both IDS and PB, but do we really need them both? I mean, if we want additional ways to increase dpr (meaning on top of IDS), we can do it by staying singleclass and by grabbing feats like PAM and GWM, or by using elemental weapon if we have to. Meaning, there are ways we can sort out a good dpr while progressing in our class. The benefit of this, is that we grab along the way things unrelated to damage but still useful to a melee dpr. Things like dimension door and a flying mount, that is mobility boosts that can be very critical to how effective a melee dpr is, or defenses like aura of courage and freedom of movement(I always forget this is not a vengeance spell) that help against conditions that would nullify our optimized dpr impact. Multiclassing into bard would delay or deny us these features. Sure the bard levels give us access to other stuff, but I am not convinced that whatever the bard levels compensate us with is better than what I get by more levels in vengeance paly, always for a character that intends to behave as a melee dpr.
Back to psychic blades. Now let me say how important I consider it as a nova supplement. Not very. That's because of how important I think nova is. Actually, I think that having the ability to go nova is pretty important, so let me rephrase that. That's because of how often I think a character would have to rely on going nova. Which IMO is not that often. IMO, or better in this case IME (and YMMV of course), the paladin's slot progression is enough to support going nova, provided we are going nova when it is a good call to do so. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't say no to extra spell slots. But under normal circumstances (and I will expand on this shortly), it is not a priority or something worth going after. Now, it is entirely possible (as demonstrated by the op), that a player might find their PC in a situation where going nova more often than what I hint at, is unavoidable or just the right choice. So, many times a player might think that they have to rely on nova a lot more often than the spell slots can support. And they go about 'solving that problem' by multiclassing into a caster for faster access to spell slots. IMO, that's the correct answer to a non-existing problem. Cause the error is in thinking that you have to rely to nova more often. In that case the problem always lies somewhere else. In the op's case for example, the problem is that he is tanking enemies alone, while the party misses a good ranged dpr that would help when fighting few tough foes (because with a tempest cleric and a wizard, fighting hordes will be less of a problem). So the op finds their character on low hit points often, and they are probably thinking ''Oh ****, I am going down, better unload everything!''. Hence why they smite a lot and why the tank empties quickly. So the answer is not going for more nova fuel or for a nova supplement. The answer is to fix group tactics, meaning that someone (ie the cleric) needs to share the tanking duty with the op's character. If that happens, the op can therefore optimize more freely for a mobile melee dpr (which the party is missing, and for which the vengeance paly is a good base for optimization). If the party had a ranged dpr, I would suggest to the op to optimize towards a tanking direction (since single target dpr would be covered by an ally in that case), cause vengeance paladins may not be squishy punks, but they are not the pinnacle of tanking either. I guess I rambled a bit, but what I want to say is that, if nova backed up by at least two attacks and at least a half caster progression is not enough, then the actual problem is different than the problem that asks how to maximize nova (though maximizing nova can be a good problem for solo assassins I guess). So if you managed to make any sense out of my rambling, that's why I would not consider psychic blade a feature worth going after, that is because I don't think it addresses any real issues I would want fixed or optimized. So if I am going bard, it will be a welcome addition, but it would definitely, always IMO, not be one of the reasons that would tempt me to go bard or whisper bard for that matter.

About shadow blade...
I had a wall of text where I was basically ****ting all over this spell. And I thought that approaching it the way I initially did, would not make for a very productive discussion. To oversimplify then, and to restrict it to the op's build, I think that investing in feats like PAM and GWM, which have already synergy with the op's build that far, would be more beneficial than committing our concentration (and possibly warcaster?) and slots for the purposes of adding damage. Shadow blade kind of acts as the compensation for not investing in a few more paladin levels (for PAM and IDS). Meaning that while I could see it perhaps (not really, but for the sake of argument) as a mitigation to my losses due to multiclassing, it cannot at the same time be a reason that would tempt me to multiclass. If I already have access (and also look forward) to desirable concentration options, I will not base the dpr increase that I am after also on concentration, because that means that in this case my dpr increase will just be hypothetical and a lot of the time something that just exists on paper. I'd rather get it via feats, which means it will be always on and it wont compete with my spellcasting potential, especially because there is also synergy between these feats and the features I already have and will have by the time I get these feats.


However, Warcaster+Sentinel would allow you to chain another Booming Blade (+ potential Whispers,+ potential smite).
Sentinel might allow a reaction attack but that attack wouldn't be a BB, just a normal melee attack (though I guess shadow blade would apply to that). Regarding OA's, sentinel and warcaster + BB would cancel each other out (at least I think that's the RAW interpretation?). Generally I don't see any synergy between those feats, and my thought is always to go for one or the other (assuming I will be able to grab BB too if I also have warcaster), because they step over each other's toes. I like pairing sentinel with resilient con for that reason, well, I generally like resilient con more than warcaster anyway, but if I have to pick warcaster (S&B gish essentially), I just treat not getting sentinel as part of the 'opportunity cost' of that decision. If you can call not taking a feat an opportunity cost...:smallsmile: I like sentinel...
Oh, I am typing this to see if I am missing any synergy between warcaster + sentinel.

[stoutstien]

I really don't get how you would conclude that the target goal of duration is 3.
As I said to someone else in another thread, the only thing referencing such duration (AFAIK) is the DMG guidelines to determine the CR of a custom creature... But party is not supposed to fight ONE creature usually. In other words, it's not because you can assume one *creature* would usually die in three rounds that you can assume the *fight* will be over in three rounds (unless enemy party is equal or less in numbers than PCs and of average CR for the level).

There are many factors that can come into play to lengthen a fight, either tactics (creatures reducing ability of party to harm them through cover/reach block/spells/hazards), or sheer number compared to mass-clean tools party has (maybe no blaster, or maybe depleted resources), or alternative priorities than "kill everything in sight".

In fact, the goal target was very probably around 6-8 rounds per encounter. Otherwise, why would so many spells (fight-related especially) have either a round or a minute duration?

(Also, although it's indeed just one particular example with no objective of representativity of what's common all-around, in my games, 5 rounds is usually the minimum, and the extremes so far have been 2 and 14 respectively, usually as a result of combining everything suggested above).

I find that fights can last longer than three rounds but are usually decided within the first few rounds. As a DM are you going to save the big guns that npc has such as a hobgoblin cleric's spiritual guardian for the last part of the fight? Saving a slot for sanctuary makes sense though.

[Citan]

Yep. I mean, I am not surprised. It is very difficult to draw the same conclusions when looking at the same 'dnd problem', because there are so many different ways you can go about it. And everyone makes their assumptions. I mean, even without assumptions it is very difficult to compare the dpr of two builds that use different resources that recharge on different rate, have different hit chance and use different action economy. That aside, I was making some big assumptions when I was offering my suggestion, which I didn't let on. These are the following two. Firstly, I am not a fan of palabards (to a lesser extent, I am not a fan of shadow blade), always talking about the mechanics, no problem with fluff. Secondly, and this is the big one, I am of the opinion, that if you can achieve your goals sufficiently by staying singleclassed (and by goals, I mean either optimize an aspect of your character that you think it is really crucial for you to optimize, or cover a weakness of your character build that you think it will hurt you significantly and/or often, or aim at some very specific synergy that you want for a very important reason), then don't bother with multiclassing.

This is the take-out I'll pick, and I understand your point perfectly. :)
(honestly I did try to read everything carefully but, -as devious or illegimitate as may be coming from me, the guy never writing below 20 lines in any post-, this really was too big of a text wall :smallredface:).

[Zuras]

Given that you are the primary melee for the party, and you aren’t complaining about your lack of ranged attacks, I would stick with single classed Paladin.

Multiclassing on a Paladin is most useful for gaining ranged attacks and an improved smite battlery. At this point a fighter dip actually adds more nova damage than reliable DPS, given you are only two levels away from improved divine smite adding 1d8 on every melee attack.

Multiclassing after 11 is reasonable, but I don’t see a massive upside for any particular dip. It’s mainly a matter of how interesting you find the Paladin capstone features/ 4th & 5th lvl spells vs the first few levels of Fighter or Warlock.

I would not add Bard or Sorcerer levels. They aren’t bad, but you sound like you enjoy your current party role, and Fighter/Warlock levels offer more improvements faster in the Stabby Stabby department.