OOTS #1149 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[GooeyChewie]

Hey, during lunch!

I see my speculation of it being a different cleric of Loki and a time jump was wrong.

[Forikroder]

proposals always make me tear up :')

[lawgnome]

Thank you for that. I was laughing so much at the end of that :smallsmile:

[Sylian]

Guess he's losing two levels from this ordeal, eh?

[Ruck]

Well, that was... not how I expected that to happen, but with everyone who predicted Hilgya wanted to raise Durkon just to kill him again, I suspected it might.

I still snort-laughed at the punchline, though.

[Pablo360]

Yeah, in that situation I probably would have done the same thing. Come on, Durkon, how dense are you? Don't answer that.

[RyanW1019]

That is sweet, but also hilarious.

I was not expecting Durkon to propose!

[Locnil]

Well, Durkon kinda was coming on a bit strong there. :smalleek:

Though I hope she has enough for Minrah to...

[heavyfuel]

Was really hoping for beardless Durkon or for Hilgya to punch him. Guess we can't have everything lol

Also, even if she's rich, two lost levels is really gonna hurt Durkon

[NerdyKris]

Well, Durkon kinda was coming on a bit strong there. :smalleek:

Though I hope she has enough for Minrah to...

Yeah, he kind of deserved that.

[MaverickMopete]

But if she uses up all her diamonds to constantly raise Durkon so she can kill him over and over, she won't be able to raise Minrah!

[Prospekt]

Above anything else, I love Kudzu reaching for the diamond and then getting upset when it vanishes.

[Ruck]

Guess he's losing two levels from this ordeal, eh?

That does concern me a bit. "You idiot, we need him as strong as possible if we're going to beat the people bent on world destruction and/or domination!"

[Sylian]

Notice Kudzu's reaction to the diamond in panel 1-3? His reactions to things can be quite amusing at times, I'm glad he's in the comic (he doesn't seem fazed by seeing Durkon dead though, although I guess he might not know what death is).

[Asmodean_]

Looks like she did get to kill Durkon after all.

Mission accomplished?

[Basement Cat]

Never outmaneuver a vindictive woman and prevent her from getting revenge or she'll do it anyway out of spite!

I love how furious Belkar looks. He's got some issues with Durkon, it's true, and I don't think he'll be shy about pursuing them. :smallwink:

[heavyfuel]

Just how powerful is Hilgya that a single Flame Strike is able to kill a high level dwarf cleric with full hit points?

[monomer]

Hah, I guess everyone who said she was resurrecting Durkon just for the satisfaction of killing him herself were right.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ooooh, burn.

What? Someone had to say it.

Although, if my future father-in-law had a flame strike available when I proposed...

Heck, he'd probably still use it today.

[Dausuul]

Jeez, he's now down a full spell level from when he fought Malack. *And* the rest of the party has been racking up XP since then. I hope Hilgya is satisfied.

(Side note, I don't really want to cut back to Valhalla right now, but I hope when this gets made into a book, we get a bonus strip where Durkon pops back in for ten minutes and has to make awkward chitchat with Thor and Minrah.)

[Coventry]

My reaction upon seeing the comic:

Yea! Cool!

Wait .... but ... ACK!

Nooo!

Of course. Thus being the only member of the linear guild to actually take kill her counterpart in the Order.

[Keltest]

So how come Durkon came back clothed? Or did Roy only come back naked because Haley took his stuff?

[Baywolfe]

"Okay, I deserved that."

[Resileaf]

Man, Durkon is bad at reading people for someone with such a high wisdom score.

[Stelio Kontos]

She hasn't said no yet, exactly.

[Sylian]

Jeez, he's now down a full spell level from when he fought Malack. *And* the rest of the party has been racking up XP since then. I hope Hilgya is satisfied now.Assuming he gets to keep XP from Greg, we know that Greg was able to cast level 8 spells, so Durkon is still at least level 13 (possibly 14, but 13 seems more probable).

[Ruck]

Notice Kudzu's reaction to the diamond in panel 1-3? His reactions to things can be quite amusing at times, I'm glad he's in the comic (he doesn't seem fazed by seeing Durkon dead though, although I guess he might not know what death is).

For another example, page 1, panel 9 has Kudzu reaching out to Durkon when Durkon gestures to him, and in panel 10 Hilgya pulls his hand back.

[Crisis21]

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hilgya_zpsvgmasmec.png How dare you apologize to me!
:durkon: I'm sorry!

[King of Nowhere]

Ok, we knew hilgya was a jerkass, but she's also a total moron. the world is at risk, and she drains a level from one of the guys trying to help? I had pretty low expectations of her, but I still thought her better than that.

I don't find that amusing. though mostly it's because it seems the narrative is condoning her.

[B. Dandelion]

He reached her, obviously.

I mean sure, she still needed to get some rage out of her system. She couldn't back down after all that. But it'll be fine. Everything is going to work out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So how come Durkon came back clothed? Or did Roy only come back naked because Haley took his stuff?

Because it was only funny the first time.

Grey Wolf

[Morty]

A Flame Strike was excessive, but Durkon did kind of had it coming.

[monomer]

Man, Durkon is bad at reading people for someone with such a high wisdom score.

Wouldn't that fall under Charisma?


Notice Kudzu's reaction to the diamond in panel 1-3? His reactions to things can be quite amusing at times, I'm glad he's in the comic (he doesn't seem fazed by seeing Durkon dead though, although I guess he might not know what death is).

Thanks for pointing that out. His little expression when the diamond disappears is priceless. I didn't notice all of Kudzu's reactions over the course of the comic and how he basically has no attention span yet.

[JeenLeen]

I like that she covered Kudzu's eyes before killing his dad in front of him. It's a small touch to the artwork, but I think it shows that, even through her anger, she is putting him first. Perhaps she and Durkon can both be there for him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I like that she covered Kudzu's eyes before killing his dad in front of him.

She does that with all the flame strikes, though, so that his eyes aren't hurt by the bright light.

She does, however, explicitly stop Kudzu from reaching out to Durkon.

Grey Wolf

[Michaeler]

Somehow I think that asking for a rez for your blonde female friend in this situation would not improve things.

[Kish]

Somehow I think that asking for a rez for your blonde female friend in this situation would not improve things.
Hilgya's known Minrah longer than Durkon has. She's irrational enough that she might jump to some weird conclusion about Durkon saying "also, the other person who died in the vampire fight wants to be raised," but let's not help here get there.

[Lord Torath]

So, Durkon gets to keep his clothes. Poor Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html). :smallamused:

Thanks, Rich! That ending had me cracking up! And Naturally, Kudzu is adorable!

[Ruck]

Man, Durkon is bad at reading people for someone with such a high wisdom score.

I feel like that might also be tied to Charisma, something Durkon doesn't have a lot of. (I'm only saying this from my perspective on how real-world traits might translate to D&D; I don't know what the actual mechanics are at play here. But among OOTS, Haley is the best at reading people, and she seems to have decent scores in both areas, although C&LG hasn't tried to peg her Wisdom score.)

[TuringTest]

Well, that was... not how I expected that to happen, but with everyone who predicted Hilgya wanted to raise Durkon just to kill him again, I suspected it might.

I still snort-laughed at the punchline, though.

I believe the Giant sometimes simply delays the storyline by inserting new unplanned jokes, inspired by the appropriate discussions in the forums.

(I got a jolt for a second when I saw the X's in his eyes, but it wouldn't have made sense for this death to be permanent, at this point of the story arc).



Just how powerful is Hilgya that a single Flame Strike is able to kill a high level dwarf cleric with full hit points?

I was wondering the same - I wouldn't expect Durkon to day from a single hit (though hey, that might be just rule of cool and dramatic necessity, for the sake of the joke).
Plus, she's able to cast Raise dead twice in a row. That's level 5, isn't it? What level does need a cleric to do that?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Somehow I think that asking for a rez for your blonde female friend in this situation would not improve things.

It's also not going to make it worse, so you might as well ask. Worse that can happen is you get killed again.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

Betting it now: H is gonna be freaking murdered. This confirms she's a psycho.

[Resileaf]

Wouldn't that fall under Charisma?



I feel like that might also be tied to Charisma, something Durkon doesn't have a lot of. (I'm only saying this from my perspective on how real-world traits might translate to D&D; I don't know what the actual mechanics are at play here. But among OOTS, Haley is the best at reading people, and she seems to have decent scores in both areas, although C&LG hasn't tried to peg her Wisdom score.)

Sense motive is the skill used to read people, and is tied to wisdom.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

she's able to cast Raise dead twice in a row

No, that had to be a Resurrection. You can't Raise Dead on a corpse formerly inhabited by any kind of undead spirit.

Grey Wolf

[truthwatcher]

Plus, she's able to cast Raise dead twice in a row. That's level 5, isn't it? What level does need a cleric to do that?

Actually, the first one must be Resurrection. He had no body left, and Raise Dead need a body, while Resurrection can do with a bit of dust left over by Disintegrate (or the death of a vampire, for that matter).

[Dausuul]

Just how powerful is Hilgya that a single Flame Strike is able to kill a high level dwarf cleric with full hit points?

Well, if we assume Durkon is level 13 after the first resurrection, his hit points are 8 (first level) + 12d8 (subsequent levels) + 13X, where X is his Con mod. Since he does not appear to have any of his regular gear, he likely isn't benefiting from any Con-boosting items. So, figure he's got a Con around 12, then he'll have ~75 hit points.

Flame strike caps out at 15d6. The maximum possible damage is thus 90, while the average is 52.5. So it would take an exceptionally good roll--she'd have to average around 5 across all the dice--but it could happen. It is also possible that Hilgya has some item or ability that boosts her fire damage, as suggested by her comment that "Loki's fire burns hotter."

[Ruck]

Because it was only funny the first time.

Grey Wolf

I think a lot of little questions could be resolved if people accepted that the comic often runs on the Roger Rabbit rules of physics.

[ellindsey]

She can cast (and has the diamonds for) one Resurrection followed by a Raise Dead. But is she going to be able to cast another Raise Dead for Minrah? Be ironic if her getting vengeance here means Minrah has to wait another day to be raised.

[truthwatcher]

It is also possible that Hilgya has some item or ability that boosts her fire damage, as suggested by her comment that "Loki's fire burns hotter."

Actually, "Loki's fire burns hotter" is because half of the damage of Fire Strike is considered divine damage and not fire damage, and thus is not affected by fire resistance. V explained it to Belkar a couple chapters ago.

[Cicciograna]

Didn't really like the punchline but thanks for the new comic, Giant, it's always good to read one.

[Ornithologist]

Dnd question.

Do you lose a level on a raise dead cast as well as a resurection cast?

[Sylian]

Well, if we assume Durkon is level 13 after the first resurrection, his hit points are 8 (first level) + 12d8 (subsequent levels) + 13X, where X is his Con mod.Since Greg was able to cast level 8 spells, we can assume Durkon was level 15 (if he kept Greg's experience). As such, Durkon would be level 14 after the first Flame Strike. It's also possible Hilgya has some feats or magical items that boosts her Flame Strike damage though.

[Aotrs Commander]

Pahahahahahahahahaha!

More marriage proposals should end that way.

[QuietEngineer25]

Does this mean that Durkon gets a coupon for a free drink upgrade too?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dnd question.

Do you lose a level on a raise dead cast as well as a resurection cast?

Y (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)es (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm).

Grey Wolf

[Chei]

Pffft. Bwahaha. Even that really hilarious bit isn't enough to undercut the heartwarming speech, though. Good for you, Durkon. Have a cookie.

So, uh, I'm guessing he doesn't lose levels for this.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Does this mean that Durkon gets a coupon for a free drink upgrade too?

Yup.

The discussion of the Flame Strike damage also requires Durkon to fail the save so as to take full damage.

[Kantaki]

I think that was a „No”.:smallbiggrin:

[Eldritch Queen]

Oh, right. I forgot. Hilgya is Chaotic Evil.

Also, HA, HA, HA, HA!!!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think that was a „No”.:smallbiggrin:

Eh. Could also be "How dare you make me cry".

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

Betting it now: H is gonna be freaking murdered. This confirms she's a psycho.

Very unlikely. She just said she'll raise him again, she's pulling the diamond to do it, she's the only Cleric in hand able to do so, they need Durkon more than ever, they could use a Cleric or two more than ever and, in order to kill her right now, the Order would have to ignore all of those extremely important strategic factors and kill Durkon's likely fiancée in front of their child.

I personally bet on Hilgya calling things even after the second rez - and then either accepting the proposal because she feels like it and wants him in her life or refusing it because she doesn't trust him and wants to be free of obligations. Either ways, I also doubt she'll actively prevent Durkon from meeting Kudzu further.


Oh, right. I forgot. Hilgya is Chaotic Evil.

Durkon doesn't think so...

Regardless, she doesn't seem intent on keeping him dead.

[Ruck]

I think that was a „No”.:smallbiggrin:

I actually suspect it might be more of a "How dare you make me think about things, Durkon! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)"

[Phhase]

Why is everyone under the impression Hiylga used Raise Dead on Durkon? Literally the FIRST thing she says is the name of the spell she's casting.

Also, I hope Durkon reached her, and the Strike was just frustration. It makes me sad when big problem-fixing moments get turned into jokes and are then forgotten.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Eh. Could also be "How dare you make me cry".

I actually suspect it might be more of a "How dare you make me think about things, Durkon! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)"


Also, I hope Durkon reached her, and the Strike was just frustration.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that read it that way. Even if it then turns out we're wrong.

Grey Wolf

[Chei]

Sense motive is the skill used to read people, and is tied to wisdom.

You've hit on the real reason Durkon is bad at it: Sense Motive is a skill that needs points put into it to be any good, and we all know clerics don't get enough for that.

Haley's slowly tuned herself towards a social skills build over the course of the comic, and it shows.

[TheNecrocomicon]

So Hilgya's sheer jerkassishness is now actively putting the world at risk? "Overstaying their welcome" comes to mind.

And considering that Belkar is shown angry after Durkon gets flame-struck, I get the feeling that his rage is not directed at Durkon anymore, but at Hilgya (and rightly so).

[EmperorSarda]

Man, Hilgya has now cast four 7th level non domain spells, with potentially a 5th on the way. Just how powerful is she?

[Connington]

I think that was a „No”.:smallbiggrin:

It's not surprising for a Cleric of Loki to be fickle. Maybe that was just one heck of a way to buy 10 minutes to think it over.

[The_Weirdo]

So Hilgya's sheer jerkassishness is now actively putting the world at risk? "Overstaying their welcome" comes to mind.

Oh, calm down, she can just raise him again.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Man, Hilgya has now cast four 7th level non domain spells, with potentially a 5th on the way. Just how powerful is she?

This might be post-spell refresh.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

You've hit on the real reason Durkon is bad at it: Sense Motive is a skill that needs points put into it to be any good, and we all know clerics don't get enough for that.

Haley's slowly tuned herself towards a social skills build over the course of the comic, and it shows.

I just mean that every single thing he said to Hilgya was hillariously wrong. There's blowing your sense motive check and there's blowing your sense motive check.

[Canuck617]

I can't believe that all those people who said Hilgya would kill Durkon again were right.

I guess I got my wish though. Dangit. I was so excited to see him alive. He better be raised again. (He probably will. Yay Frequent Flyer Miles!)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Oh, calm down, she can just raise him again.

Yes, with another negative level to go with the first one. Wonderful. Just what he needs when Xykon and Redcloak are knocking on the door of the last Gate and everybody knows it.

At what point do you stop coming up with excuses for Evil actions?

[Paschendale]

Ha ha hah ah aha ha ha...

*Inhale*

HA ha ha haha!!



Also, I love the other characters' various reactions. Elan is aghast, Belkar is angry, Roy is angry, but probably for tactical reasons... but V is merely bemused. "Wielding one's considerable might for love" (paraphrased), indeed.

[The_Weirdo]

I just mean that every single thing he said to Hilgya was hillariously wrong. There's blowing your sense motive check and there's blowing your sense motive check.

Eh, more or less. He very much was wrong to send her back to Ivan when, as far as he knew, he was a horribly abusive man (and, regardless, sending her back to her forced husband is very wrong anyways).

That being said, Durkon had no moral obligation to "be there for" Hilgya and I very much doubt Hilgya herself, being Chaotic, thinks he did.

[nocoolnamejim]

I like that she covered Kudzu's eyes before killing his dad in front of him. It's a small touch to the artwork, but I think it shows that, even through her anger, she is putting him first. Perhaps she and Durkon can both be there for him.

If she were doing that she wouldn't have carried him into battle as basically a breastplate and therefore put him into a position where he was used as a human shield, as was entirely predictable.

The more I see of her the more I'm convinced she's an utter moron. And a selfish one at that. But then, I suppose since she's a cleric of Loki, being selfish is to be expected.

[drazen]

In other news, based on the final panel, it looks like Haley packed at least one extra bowstring?

[Wimblesaurus]

She'll raise him again...

...If Belkar lets her live through the casting time.

[Cirin]

Hopefully this will put any question about her alignment to rest.

Definitely, totally, unquestionably Chaotic Evil.

She just Raised Durkon so she could murder him in cold blood, casually brushing off her own act of murder because she could do it again with the diamonds.

You know, now Durkon might be inclined to refuse that second Resurrection and wait for one of Thor's Clerics to do it.

Given the importance of Thor's mission to Durkon, I'm sure he could send an appropriate message to one of his Clerics to handle the matter now, since Hilyga definitely can't be trusted to cast Raise Dead on anyone now.

[The_Weirdo]

Yes, with another negative level to go with the first one. Wonderful. Just what he needs when Xykon and Redcloak are knocking on the door of the last Gate and everybody knows it.

At what point do you stop coming up with excuses for Evil actions?

She did one Good action: rezzing him for, likely, free.

She did one Evil action: killing him.

She'll do one half-Good action: rezzing him again. Half-Good because she's just correcting the previous evil one (and then not fully).

So... 1 - 1 + 1/2 = 1/2.

In total, the three things she did were... Good-ish.

[woweedd]

Oh, calm down, she can just raise him again.
Minus two full levels.

[Leftour]

The real question is: Does this count as an HONORABLE death? I think not. Durkon will be having a chat with Hel it seems...

[Cirin]

She did one Good action: rezzing him for, likely, free.

She did one Evil action: killing him.

She'll do one half-Good action: rezzing him again. Half-Good because she's just correcting the previous evil one (and then not fully).

So... 1 - 1 + 1/2 = 1/2.

In total, the three things she did were... Good-ish.

Raising someone just to murder them is NOT a "good-ish" act. It's Evil with a capital E.

Especially in a world where raising someone from the dead has a penalty. . .remember Durkon loses a level every time he's Raised. He's losing 2 levels from this ordeal now, that's going to be enough to make him lose one level's worth of spells.

[Peelee]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that read it that way. Even if it then turns out we're wrong.

Grey Wolf
I'd also like to pitch my tent in this camp.

[The Pilgrim]

Good to see gender-based violence against men is still funny.

BTW, can a single Flame Strike kill a high-level cleric dwarf at full HP?

[TheNecrocomicon]

She did one Good action: rezzing him for, likely, free.

She did one Evil action: killing him.

She'll do one half-Good action: rezzing him again. Half-Good because she's just correcting the previous evil one (and then not fully).

So... 1 - 1 + 1/2 = 1/2.

In total, the three things she did were... Good-ish.

So that's your bizarre calculus. At what point are any of those even equivalent?

Raising him is basic decency considering what had been done to him with his body being used as an undead tool. Hell, it could be considered a Neutral action to raise him just to restore his prior state of existence.

Meanwhile, raising someone for casual murder when they are vulnerable is probably something even a Neutral character wouldn't contemplate.

[The_Weirdo]

Minus two full levels.

Only the second of those levels is her fault. And let's consider that, if she hadn't rezzed him twice, he'd not be rezzed at all...

[Nogster]

Definitely some "nefarious intentions".

[ziratha]

OOh, I bet this doesn't count as an honorable death. Maybe we will get 10 minutes of Hel glaring at durkon?

[Manar]

I wonder if getting oneshoted by your girlfriend while proposing counts as dying honorably among dwarves. If not Durkon might get a glimpse of what is going on down at Hels place soon. I hope she allows him to go back afterwards.

[2D8HP]

Before I read all the posts, I may be 100th person to say this:

Yep Chaotic Evil.

[Gift Jeraff]

On one hand, I think Durkon was doing an honourable act and did essentially die in battle since love is a battlefield. On the other, I would like to see Durkon give Hel a piece of his mind.

[The_Weirdo]

So that's your bizarre calculus. At what point are any of those even equivalent?

Raising him is basic decency considering what had been done to him with his body being used as an undead tool. Hell, it could be considered a Neutral action to raise him just to restore his prior state of existence.

Meanwhile, raising someone for casual murder when they are vulnerable is probably something even a Neutral character wouldn't contemplate.

With her power and her diamond? Those are some pretty stringent requirements for basic decency you've got there, seeing as even Good Clerics charge for a Raise.

[nocoolnamejim]

The real question is: Does this count as an HONORABLE death? I think not. Durkon will be having a chat with Hel it seems...

Death at the hands of a cleric of Loki seems to me like it would be honorable?

If nothing else, Thor can make the claim that it was a death in battle.......just a very short battle.

[TheNecrocomicon]

OOh, I bet this doesn't count as an honorable death. Maybe we will get 10 minutes of Hel glaring at durkon?

He was trying to do something honourable at the time and technically got killed in combat. Though I guess we'll see next strip whether it counts in-universe.


Only the second of those levels is her fault. And let's consider that, if she hadn't rezzed him twice, he'd not be rezzed at all...

Did we all miss the point when the Order basically said they could find someone else to resurrect Durkon, it would just take much longer to pull it off? Obviously there were enough remains for a Resurrection, just take them back to perhaps the High Priestess of Thor or someone else with the capability. It didn't have to be Hilgya, she just made it more convenient.

[Peelee]

I wonder if getting oneshoted by your girlfriend while proposing counts as dying in battle among dwarves. If not Durkon might get a glimpse of what is going on down at Hels place soon. I hope she allows him to go back afterwards.

It's not like she could stop it.

He was trying to do something honourable at the time and technically got killed in combat.

There's no combat. Also, I doubt we'll see him in Hel's domain.

[Cirin]

Only the second of those levels is her fault. And let's consider that, if she hadn't rezzed him twice, he'd not be rezzed at all...

He's in the temple of Thor, having been given a mission by Thor Himself of the utmost importance.

If Hilyga didn't do it, Thor would have had one of his Clerics do it.

This isn't some situation deep in a dungeon or way out in the wilderness where she was the only way he could be Raised/Resurrected, this was in the middle of the main Dwarven temple of Thor when his Resurrection was literally Thor's current #1 priority (going by the previous panel). If there wasn't a cleric there, it still would have happened.

[jwhouk]

Never before have the words ROTFLMAO been ever truer after reading this strip. :)

[Fyraltari]

Oh look it was Hilgya casting, and little to no-time has passed. Who could have foreseen such a twist.

[Peelee]

Oh look it was Hilgya casting, and little to no-time has passed. Who could have foreseen such a twist.

Not a significant part of the forum.:smalltongue:

Also, judging by some of the replies I see, my hopes to clear out the Ignore list are dashed.

[TheNecrocomicon]

With her power and her diamond? Those are some pretty stringent requirements for basic decency you've got there, seeing as even Good Clerics charge for a Raise.

She's there, in that situation, with her power and capabilities which she can simply refresh the next day. And didn't the Order provide the diamond or were planning to? I remember Roy and Haley talking about pooling their resources and how there might not be enough to get Durkon raised and pay the crew of the Mechane or some such.

Even if the Order didn't provide the diamond, the wealth is obviously trivial to her.


There's no combat. Also, I doubt we'll see him in Hel's domain.

There was a Flame Strike, which is a combat spell, at the very least when used against another character (and not, say, an inanimate target). Initiative had to have been rolled, and obviously Hilgya got the surprise round. We've seen "it was combat" argued for far less.

[Cirin]

I wonder if getting oneshoted by your girlfriend while proposing counts as dying honorably among dwarves. If not Durkon might get a glimpse of what is going on down at Hels place soon. I hope she allows him to go back afterwards.

She really wouldn't have a choice. That same Domain Agreement which meant that Thor couldn't block one of Durkula's Control Weather spells would also apply to a Raise Dead by a Cleric of Thor or Loki.

If Hel tries to break the agreement by holding on to Durkon's soul, then the whole system breaks down, and then Gods can go back on rules, which means the "No backsies" rule at Godsmoot could be broken and Hel's whole gambit folds on the spot.

[Psychronia]

Easy for you to say, Hilgya! XP ain't free you know?

Welcome back, Durkon. What an awesome speech to come back with, even if he was kinda missing the point.
The fact that simply rewatching that memory caused him to reflect was interesting. I guess being a vampire causes you to recontexualize your life in more ways than one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In other news, based on the final panel, it looks like Haley packed at least one extra bowstring?

Alternatively: her boyfriend has the spell "Mending".


Hopefully this will put any question about her alignment to rest.
Oh, my sweet summer child.

Grey Wolf

[ellindsey]

Easy for you to say, Hilgya! XP ain't free you know?


Speaking of which - does Hilgya get XP for killing Durkon? I'm thinking probably not, since she just raised him, but not sure.

[Peelee]

Alternatively: her boyfriend has the spell "Mend".


Oh, my sweet summer child.

Grey Wolf

The pickiest of nits: it's Mending, not Mend. It's an action spell!

[The_Weirdo]

She's there, in that situation, with her power and capabilities which she can simply refresh the next day. And didn't the Order provide the diamond or were planning to? I remember Roy and Haley talking about pooling their resources and how there might not be enough to get Durkon raised and pay the crew of the Mechane or some such.

Even if the Order didn't provide the diamond, the wealth is obviously trivial to her.

Still her diamond. She had no specific moral obligation to rez Durkon the first time. The second, sure, and then some, but the first it was a Good act of hers.

[Azazyll]

One of the most painful lessons I have ever had to learn is that trying to pre-empt a well-deserved berating will only make it worse.

Although it looks like that lesson was even more painful for Durkon.

Seriously, this comic gives great dating advice sometimes. Come on Durkon, solving the problem with a proposal is such a rookie mistake!

[woweedd]

Only the second of those levels is her fault. And let's consider that, if she hadn't rezzed him twice, he'd not be rezzed at all...
Um...What?

[Yirggzmb]

Hahahaha, yes I can understand that response to a sudden proposal. Over the top, but relateable

[The_Weirdo]

Um...What?

As in, she was the one there to rez him. It'd be way harder for the Order to get someone to at the moment.

[Elvensilver]

After this obvious "NO!" Durkon really shouldn't ask again. These two don't fit together, and a relationship on the basis of "I can change you" or keeping together for the sake of others would eventually end in flames. As it just now did.

[SilverCacaobean]

Oh I KNEW it! I knew she'd do that and I never posted it in any discussion thread because I thought it was too far-fetched and now I can't prove that I knew it! Noooooo! Ah, well. Still love this development. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

I hate to bring sexism into it, but the comic calls for it.
If a man had beaten a woman for abandoning him, nobody here would say she deserved it, or would find it hilarious. If somebody did, he'd be quickly be submerged by hateful replies. But since the aggressor is the woman, abuse of woman on man is considered funny.

Normally I wouldn't make a big fuss about it, because I believe everything can be joked about. But rich in one of his commentaries profusely apologized for doing some mild sexual jokes on haley. expressing that statement and then making fun of a woman inflicting semi-permanent damage on a man is a large double standard.

On the plus side, the other people there are not taking it lightly. I understand that hilgya is needed now, but she really should get a comeuppance. At least a moral one. And I really hope Durkon does not apologize to her again. It would be like seeing a beaten woman apologizing to her tormentor and acknowledging she deserved to be beaten.

I can agree, though, that Durkon should have seen it coming. He should have realized hilgya was instable and dangerous. though I had no idea she'd go to that level.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Um...What?

Come on, woweedd, you know better than trying to find logic in T_W's posts. Other, of course, than his standard "Anything Hilgya does is Good because I like her, and anything anyone does against her is Evil deserving of Death for them and all other members of their group".

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure getting killed by a surprise attack counts as "dying in combat," which is what dying honorably means.

[Cirin]

There was a Flame Strike, which is a combat spell, at the very least when used against another character (and not, say, an inanimate target). Initiative had to have been rolled, and obviously Hilgya got the surprise round. We've seen "it was combat" argued for far less.

Indeed, if "died while fighting a tree" counts as a combat death in Dwarven Honor (as their tradition of people dying of old age nominally picking a fight with a tree apparently counts), being killed by a Flame Strike cast by someone standing right in front of you would have to count.

Also, Durkon was trying to do what he saw as the Honorable thing and propose marriage to Hilgya for the sake of his son. . .which is totally an Honorable course of action, and if he was killed for it, then that could also be argued as dying with honor.

[Canuck617]

Why is everyone under the impression Hiylga used Raise Dead on Durkon? Literally the FIRST thing she says is the name of the spell she's casting.

Also, I hope Durkon reached her, and the Strike was just frustration. It makes me sad when big problem-fixing moments get turned into jokes and are then forgotten.

Well noted on the Resurrection. Also, I kind of agree here, especially with this plot point. This was something I was waiting for since Durkon died. Frick, I created this account (after lurking for eight years) when Durkon died because I was so distraught, (so kudos to you, Mr. Giant, for being such a spectacular storyteller,) and I was looking forward to this for like five to six years. Oh, well. At least he'll come back. Could have used the much bigger pick me up, but whatever, I'll deal. /endrant Moving on with life.

Also, seriously, I mean that kudos above. A web comic doesn't normally get to people like that, but yours has, Mr. Giant. Time and time again. I applaud you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I hate to bring sexism into it, but the comic calls for it.
If a man had beaten a woman for abandoning him, nobody here would say she deserved it, or would find it hilarious. If somebody did, he'd be quickly be submerged by hateful replies. But since the aggressor is the woman, abuse of woman on man is considered funny.

No.

It's funny for the same reason that Xykon's amusement at the pie throwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) was funny. Because watching Evil people do Evil things in a fictional setting is cathartic.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

I hate to bring sexism into it, but the comic calls for it.
If a man had beaten a woman for abandoning him, nobody here would say she deserved it, or would find it hilarious. If somebody did, he'd be quickly be submerged by hateful replies. But since the aggressor is the woman, abuse of woman on man is considered funny.

If Hilgya had been a man, she'd not have been married off at crossbow point.

If Durkon had been a woman, the mere thought of "her" telling male Hilgya to retun to such a marriage would seem absurd, instead of, as it was, merely repugnant.


I understand that hilgya is needed now, but she really should get a comeuppance.

Maybe she should be forced to marry someone she despises at crossbow point?

[SlashDash]

I can't say this wasn't predictable and thus sadly not so funny.

The problem is we're at the point where we want to move along. We just went through a long (but justified) exposition and we even have the new quest for the party regarding Red Cloak - but we still need to get through the Exarch and Hel's vote even though the outcome of those is also very clear.

I just don't feel like wasting time on another page is all that great.


On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if this would be an excuse not to bring Minrah back? If Hylga has enough diamonds for an extra resurrect but not enough for a third one.

[Yirggzmb]

I hate to bring sexism into it, but the comic calls for it.
If a man had beaten a woman for abandoning him, nobody here would say she deserved it, or would find it hilarious.

Yes, there is often a double standard when it comes to this kind of stuff. But I think, at least for myself, if the genders were reversed but the situation otherwise exactly the same, I think is still find it funny. Because rejecting an unexpected (probably unwanted) proposal is relateable, but the reaction is over the top and thus funny.

I don't see magical murder as quite the same, gut reaction wise, as visible beating someone either. Because it's obviously fictional, so you can separate from the reality and find amusement in the absurdity.

[Lhynard]

So how come Durkon came back clothed? Or did Roy only come back naked because Haley took his stuff?

I was wondering this too.

Also, there's a run-on sentence in the last panel, Rich, if you read these. Great comic!

[TheNecrocomicon]

Still her diamond. She had no specific moral obligation to rez Durkon the first time. The second, sure, and then some, but the first it was a Good act of hers.

Even before haggling over morals, there's also the practical consideration of having another relatively high-level ally, now free from vampirism, to aid in saving the world -- which is the explicit cause of her patron (Loki).

That said, of course, I forget you're a CE fanboy ...


Come on, woweedd, you know better than trying to find logic in T_W's posts. Other, of course, than his standard "Anything Hilgya does is Good because I like her, and anything anyone does against her is Evil deserving of Death for them and all other members of their group".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just don't feel like wasting time on another page is all that great.

Character development is not a waste of a page. It is the point of the comic. The "stopping the end of the world " bit? That's what is the set decoration. Learning that Durkon has learnt that what he did to Hilgya needed apologizing? That is the point of this all.

Grey Wolf

[Aquillion]

Ok, we knew hilgya was a jerkass, but she's also a total moron. the world is at risk, and she drains a level from one of the guys trying to help? I had pretty low expectations of her, but I still thought her better than that.

I don't find that amusing. though mostly it's because it seems the narrative is condoning her.
I don't think it's condoning her exactly (the Order looks pretty pissed.) I think it's meant to be like Belkar murdering tons of guards and doing horrific things to kobolds, or like how someone described the Joker once - the idea is to make you laugh at it, then feel guilty for laughing. You know, Chaotic Evil humor.

[Cirin]

As in, she was the one there to rez him. It'd be way harder for the Order to get someone to at the moment.

Way harder?

They're in a major temple of Thor, when Thor Himself has made Durkon's resurrection a top priority.

The only person who absolutely couldn't show up is High Priestess Rubyrock, because she's sequestered for Godsmoot, any other suitably high-level Cleric could end up getting the divine call to go raise this guy NOW.

Hilgya, before the cold blooded murder she committed in this strip, was simply a few minutes more expedient than the rest.

Technically, at this moment, Durkon could be brought back in 2 rounds by someone else. . .a Cleric of Thor elsewhere that casts Word of Recall, followed by Raise Dead. Probably a few more rounds for Thor Himself to give the message and the Cleric to figure out what's going on once he gets there, but it's hardly a big delay since Clerics get a 6th level spell they can use to teleport back to places that are extremely familiar to them, like their home temple.

[The_Weirdo]

Even before haggling over morals, there's also the practical consideration of having another relatively high-level ally, now free from vampirism, to aid in saving the world -- which is the explicit cause of her patron (Loki).

We have no indication whatsoever as to how much Hilgya knows of what's going on aside from the vampires.


That said, of course, I forget you're a CE fanboy ...

So long as you remember I'm Chaotic, we're cool. :smallbiggrin:


Character development is not a waste of a page. It is the point of the comic. The "stopping the end of the world " bit? That's what is the set decoration. Learning that Durkon has learnt that what he did to Hilgya needed apologizing? That is the point of this all.

Grey Wolf

Excepr he didn't. He had no obligation to stay with Hilgya as he seems to think. What he did do wrong was sending her back to Ivan.

[EmperorSarda]

This might be post-spell refresh.

Grey Wolf

Doubtful. It is after midnight when the Order entered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1094.html) the temple. Evil clerics replenish their spells at dusk each day.

So it is unlikely they waited a day to resurrect Durkon.

[Peelee]

I can't say this wasn't predictable and thus sadly not so funny.

The problem is we're at the point where we want to move along. We just went through a long (but justified) exposition and we even have the new quest for the party regarding Red Cloak - but we still need to get through the Exarch and Hel's vote even though the outcome of those is also very clear.

I just don't feel like wasting time on another page is all that great.


On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if this would be an excuse not to bring Minrah back? If Hylga has enough diamonds for an extra resurrect but not enough for a third one.

A waste of a page? Did you not see the huge turnaround that Durkon did just there, showing how he's grown and changed for the better?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Probably a few more rounds for Thor Himself to give the message and the Cleric to figure out what's going on once he gets there

Scene: unknown dwarf cleric of Thor is preparing spells. Finishes preparing spells and turns to a bystander

"Huh, I was only granted "Word of Recall" to Thor's temple, and a bunch of Resurrections and Raise Dead. Clearly Thor needs me to raise a few people there in a hurry. Word of Recall!"

Grey Wolf

[Cirin]

I don't think it's condoning her exactly (the Order looks pretty pissed.) I think it's meant to be like Belkar murdering tons of guards and doing horrific things to kobolds, or like how someone described the Joker once - the idea is to make you laugh at it, then feel guilty for laughing.

Except nobody is laughing at this.

I certainly am not getting the vibe from the crowd here that this was a "funny" comic, more of a dramatic one with Durkon showing his character growth and Hilgya making her lack of growth from the first time she appeared known (and demonstrating CE alignment, since her alignment had been questioned a lot since her return).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Evil clerics replenish their spells at dusk each day

No, they don't. Many do, because night is associated to evil, but a god of fire might have an affinity to the rising sun (same as it has an aversion to the undead) and thus have his clerics refresh at dawn.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Ok, we knew hilgya was a jerkass, but she's also a total moron. the world is at risk, and she drains a level from one of the guys trying to help? I had pretty low expectations of her, but I still thought her better than that.

I for one am not surprised that Hilgya put being petty and self-serving over broader concerns or the concerns of others.


I don't find that amusing. though mostly it's because it seems the narrative is condoning her.

I've never fully been on board with this way of criticizing stories, but even to the degree I get it, I think it's too early to draw that conclusion.


No.

It's funny for the same reason that Xykon's amusement at the pie throwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) was funny. Because watching Evil people do Evil things in a fictional setting is cathartic.

Grey Wolf

And if we're splitting hairs analyzing the comedy of it all, what makes it funny isn't the act itself as much as Hilgya's blasé reaction to it.

[TheNecrocomicon]

We have no indication whatsoever as to how much Hilgya knows of what's going on aside from the vampires.

So long as you remember I'm Chaotic, we're cool. :smallbiggrin:

Y'all know what's really a waste of a page? Trying to reason with somebody who casually excuses everything an Evil character does, no matter how despicable, just because he thinks Evil is cool.

[The_Weirdo]

Folks, I think you're missing the big picture, here.

Hilgya promised she would kill Durkon.

Lawful people keep her promises.

And Good people make sure the harm is as reduced as possible in doing so.

Ergo, Hilgya is Lawful Good. :smallbiggrin:


Y'all know what's really a waste of a page? Trying to reason with somebody who casually excuses everything an Evil character does, no matter how despicable, just because he thinks Evil is cool.

Nah. I think Chaotic is cool.

And, regardless, in total, her actions there aren't Evil in my view.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And if we're splitting hairs analyzing the comedy of it all, what makes it funny isn't the act itself as much as Hilgya's blasé reaction to it.

Yes, that was my point too - what's funny about Xykon is his blase "It's funny because it's true" delivery, not the actual act of goblins being tortured for his enjoyment. Or Belkar shouting "come back little chunks of XP" or whatever it was rather than his murder of a surrendering enemy.

Grey Wolf

[username1]

What if the diamonds she uses makes it so they don’t have enough to raise the others.

[The_Weirdo]

What if the diamonds she uses makes it so they don’t have enough to raise the others.

She's rich now.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Folks, I think you're missing the big picture, here.

Hilgya promised she would kill Durkon.

Lawful people keep her promises.

Ergo, Hilgya is Lawful. :smallbiggrin:



Nah. I think Chaotic is cool.

And, regardless, in total, her actions there aren't Evil in my view.

Sounds a lot like:


I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

[Aquillion]

Except nobody is laughing at this.Read the first page of the thread!


proposals always make me tear up :')


Thank you for that. I was laughing so much at the end of that :smallsmile:


I still snort-laughed at the punchline, though.


That is sweet, but also hilarious.


Ooooh, burn.

What? Someone had to say it.

Although, if my future father-in-law had a flame strike available when I proposed...

Heck, he'd probably still use it today.


She hasn't said no yet, exactly.

Plenty of people see it as a joke (albeit a Chaotic Evil joke like I outlined above.)

Like, it's fine if you don't think it's funny or if you don't think people should laugh (I did say that it was Joker-style "make you laugh and then feel bad for doing it" humor, like a lot of Belkar's stuff), but it's pretty clear a lot of people did see it that way.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wonder if Durkon will actually end up outside Valhalla again. Being sucker-punched to death while on bended knee proposing strikes me as a dishonorable way to go, even if it is technically "in combat."

Plus, having already visited Thor, it'd be nice to see Durkon confront Hel face to face.

[The_Weirdo]

Sounds a lot like:

Must I blue-text every joke I make?

[Wraithfighter]

...so, the Paladin I used to RP with in WoW had a bit of a habit about joking that it's okay for her to hurt someone for being a dumbass/jackass, because she could turn around and heal them, right back to normal, no harm, no foul.

I mean, she never actually did it, of course! Just a joke... but still amusing to see Hilgya have that attitude too.

Oh, and regarding the argument about Hilgya's alignment? You know it's not a "9 options only" thing, right, that it's a classification guide to help *start* to get to understand the character? I'd describe her more as clearly Chaotic, somewhat Evil, but clearly more Chaotic than Evil. Similar to how Durkon's on the border between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good.

[zimmerwald1915]

Must I blue-text every joke I make?
Not at all. Just get funnier.

[greenfunkman]

Come on folks, chill out on Hilgya. This is the DM being mean.

Durkon's player: "Do I get all Greg's xp?"

DM: "Sure, you just got rezzed by Hilgya, go down one level."

Durkon's player: "cool, I'm still up one level! I thank Hilgya and say sorry and ask her to marry me!"

DM: "She flame strikes you. LOL."

There's only one monster here, and it sits behind the dm screen.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wonder if Durkon will actually end up outside Valhalla again. Being sucker-punched to death while on bended knee proposing strikes me as a dishonorable way to go, even if it is technically "in combat."

Plus, having visited Thor, it'd be nice to see Durkon confront Hel face to face.

If it does happen, it'll be because Rich needs Durkon to deliver one final verbal gut-punch to Hel before the end of the book as part of the denouement*.

But I don't think it'll be the case, awesome as that could be.

Grey Wolf

*Bloody hell Fyraltari. Do you really need that many vowels?

[The_Weirdo]

I wonder if Durkon will actually end up outside Valhalla again. Being sucker-punched to death while on bended knee proposing strikes me as a dishonorable way to go, even if it is technically "in combat."

Plus, having visited Thor, it'd be nice to see Durkon confront Hel face to face.

They have a jurisprudency of fighting trees and dying of cirrhosis as honorable. I doubt he'll go to Hel...


Not at all. Just get funnier.

That was mean. :smalltongue:

[Zerohour]

i have to remember to do that next time i'm playing a cleric. i can afford a lower level of wealth if it lets me be that petty.

[Kish]

Character development is not a waste of a page. It is the point of the comic.
There's also, finally, explicit refutation of numerous people's "but they won't be able to resurrect Durkon/Minrah, because they don't have the diamonds" ideas...
...

What if the diamonds she uses makes it so they don’t have enough to raise the others.
...never mind.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Revivify is also in 3.5 and doesn’t result in level loss?

Gotta admit the punchline was great though.

[Ruck]

I wonder if Durkon will actually end up outside Valhalla again. Being sucker-punched to death while on bended knee proposing strikes me as a dishonorable way to go, even if it is technically "in combat."

Plus, having already visited Thor, it'd be nice to see Durkon confront Hel face to face.

Yeah, I think it would be interesting to see Durkon actually get to give that piece of his mind to Hel, but I also think the established in-comic rules would have to be bent so much to send him there that it would create its own set of problems and complications and explanations.

[zimmerwald1915]

Come on folks, chill out on Hilgya. This is the DM being mean.

Durkon's player: "Do I get all Greg's xp?"

DM: "Sure, you just got rezzed by Hilgya, go down one level."

Durkon's player: "cool, I'm still up one level! I thank Hilgya and say sorry and ask her to marry me!"

DM: "She flame strikes you. LOL."

There's only one monster here, and it lives behind the dm screen.
"This is not a game of Dungeons and Dragons."

Although if it was, Durkon would be fine. He had 8th-level spells as a vampire (making him level 15 or 16), so he'll have 7th-level spells now (at level 13 or 14), even after being raised twice. 7th-level spells are nothing to sneeze at, and he'll probably get an equipment upgrade if Thor's hints are anything to go by.

[Fyraltari]

Really nice strip, biut the title plus Durkon's speech going on and on without Hilgya reacting (frankly Durkon, patronizing, much?) made me guess where it was going. Nice to see how the Order takes it though.

Notice Kudzu's reaction to the diamond in panel 1-3? His reactions to things can be quite amusing at times, I'm glad he's in the comic (he doesn't seem fazed by seeing Durkon dead though, although I guess he might not know what death is).
I hadn't noticed, thank you for that.

So how come Durkon came back clothed? Or did Roy only come back naked because Haley took his stuff?
I am more surprised his robes didn't turn back to their original blue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).

It's also not going to make it worse, so you might as well ask. Worse that can happen is you get killed again.
Nah, worse that happens is she refuses your proposal and takes your son away forever.

Betting it now: H is gonna be freaking murdered. This confirms she's a psycho.
Not really? I mean she is going to Raise him, so it isn't actually murder. It's undeserved violence with lasting effects (the level) but that fits quite nicely with her established pattern of behaviour. I don't see the Order being too upset about that. At least not if Durkon isn't.

It is also possible that Hilgya has some item or ability that boosts her fire damage, as suggested by her comment that "Loki's fire burns hotter."
I think that was because it was an Empowered Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html).

Does this mean that Durkon gets a coupon for a free drink upgrade too?
Of course it does.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that read it that way. Even if it then turns out we're wrong.
Grey Wolf
I'm in this camp as well.



Roy is angry, but probably for tactical reasons.
"Tactical reasons" nothing, that's his best friend! Learning of his death the first time had him ready to give up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html), remember?

In other news, based on the final panel, it looks like Haley packed at least one extra bowstring?
Sharp eyes.

You know, now Durkon might be inclined to refuse that second Resurrection and wait for one of Thor's Clerics to do it.
My money is on Durkon going "Heh. I deserv'd tha". He's stoic like that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Revivify is also in 3.5 and doesn’t result in level loss?

Is it? I can only find the psionic version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm).

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Revivify is also in 3.5 and doesn’t result in level loss? .

Not in any of the books I've read.

[Kish]

Is it? I can only find the psionic version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm).

Grey Wolf
I'd say something about them getting Laurin to resurrect Durkon instead, except someone would take it seriously.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think that was because it was an Empowered Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html).
The panel where she calls out the explicitly metamagiced spell is an argument against the spell that doesn't have a metamagic being called out being metamagiced.

Rather, I think she just got lucky on her damage roll.

[mneme]

On the plus side, the other people there are not taking it lightly. I understand that hilgya is needed now, but she really should get a comeuppance.

She just did; that's what this was. She came here to find the father of her child, who abandoned her for stupid alignment reasons in an extremely cruel way, and murder him for revenge.

And then she got pulled into a whole "save the world" plot that was ever so much more important, particularly since her god was, in fact, actually on the side of "how about we not destroy the world." So fine, she'll join with his allies and save the person she swore revenge on.

And now the deed is done, she's saved him and the world, and...yes, it's totally justified murder time.

Seriously, people are being pretty terrible on this thread. Flame-triking Durkon wasn't chaotic (in fact, it's the most Lawful thing we've ever seen her do; she made a promise, and look, when there was a chance, she fulfilled it!); it wasn't Evil (in as much as murder can ever not be evil), and was mostly justified. Particularly since, having fulfilled her oath, she plans on raising him again (down two levels, sure, but frankly he'll be catching most of that up in around 10 at-level encounters; he'll be getting nearly double xp until he catches up to party level -1, then 1.5 xp until he catches up all the way).

Now that said, I don't think she's going to accept his proposal at this time. For starters, "for the sake of our kid" is a -terrible- reason to propose.

[Cinnibar]

Not worried here.

Loki is bound to let his cleric work out a bit of frustration, but he knows the larger picture too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nah, worse that happens is she refuses your proposal and takes your son away forever.

What, for asking someone else be resurrected? I mean, sure, Hilgya will be Hilgya, but if she ain't refusing visitation rights on the basis she doesn't like Durkon, I'm not sure that raising an ex-ally will make up her mind on that.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Not really? I mean she is going to Raise him, so it isn't actually murder.

Rob a bank, return the money, plead it wasn't actually theft, and let me know how that turns out.:smallamused:

[zimmerwald1915]

Flame-triking Durkon wasn't . . . Evil
Come again?

[mneme]

Not in any of the books I've read.

It is; we used it all the time, and it's super-cheap (but needs to be done in the round after death). Like most overpowered D&D3.5 spells, it's from Spell Compendium.

[Cirin]

(I did say that it was Joker-style "make you laugh and then feel bad for doing it" humor,

I don't find the Joker very funny, never have. A severely mentally ill domestic terrorist/serial killer isn't exactly funny. He's more a "should be dealt with by the FBI and Homeland Security using multiple snipers and sustained automatic weapons fire as a domestic terrorist" villain rather than a "punched out by a billionaire vigilante only to inevitably escape from a mental hospital with terrible security" comedic villain. I don't find a lot of humor in evil people doing evil things to good people, more like "cheer for whoever kills the evildoer" is what I get out of it.

I really don't see the humor in this comic. I see a cold blooded murder by a psychopathic evil Dwarven Cleric who makes it clear she places absolutely no value on life, not even those of people who wish her well and want to be her ally.

She's like Belkar, before he had his little burst of character growth to decide to at least moderate his own homicidal urges somewhat (see also, Crystal)

If not for wearing little Kudzu as a breastplate and thus using him as a Dwarven shield, the proper response to what Hilgya did would be a prompt Disintegrate and Gust of Wind combo from V.

[The_Weirdo]

She just did; that's what this was. She came here to find the father of her child, who abandoned her for stupid alignment reasons in an extremely cruel way, and murder him for revenge.

And then she got pulled into a whole "save the world" plot that was ever so much more important, particularly since her god was, in fact, actually on the side of "how about we not destroy the world." So fine, she'll join with his allies and save the person she swore revenge on.

And now the deed is done, she's saved him and the world, and...yes, it's totally justified murder time.

Seriously, people are being pretty terrible on this thread. Flame-triking Durkon wasn't chaotic (in fact, it's the most Lawful thing we've ever seen her do; she made a promise, and look, when there was a chance, she fulfilled it!); it wasn't Evil (in as much as murder can ever not be evil), and was mostly justified. Particularly since, having fulfilled her oath, she plans on raising him again (down two levels, sure, but frankly he'll be catching most of that up in around 10 at-level encounters; he'll be getting nearly double xp until he catches up to party level -1, then 1.5 xp until he catches up all the way).

Now that said, I don't think she's going to accept his proposal at this time. For starters, "for the sake of our kid" is a -terrible- reason to propose.

And no, this person is very much not me.

Also: couldn't agree more.

Also also: she's Chaotic, so it's doubtful she'll marry Durkon "for Kudzu's sake". She very likely will accept his help in raising Kudzu, though.


Come again?

*Louder and slower* He saaaaaaaaaid... Flaaaaaaaaame striiiiiiiiiiiking Duuuuuuuuuurkooooooon... Is nooooooot Eeeeeevil!

[woweedd]

She just did; that's what this was. She came here to find the father of her child, who abandoned her for stupid alignment reasons in an extremely cruel way, and murder him for revenge.

And then she got pulled into a whole "save the world" plot that was ever so much more important, particularly since her god was, in fact, actually on the side of "how about we not destroy the world." So fine, she'll join with his allies and save the person she swore revenge on.

And now the deed is done, she's saved him and the world, and...yes, it's totally justified murder time.

Seriously, people are being pretty terrible on this thread. Flame-triking Durkon wasn't chaotic (in fact, it's the most Lawful thing we've ever seen her do; she made a promise, and look, when there was a chance, she fulfilled it!); it wasn't Evil (in as much as murder can ever not be evil), and was mostly justified. Particularly since, having fulfilled her oath, she plans on raising him again (down two levels, sure, but frankly he'll be catching most of that up in around 10 at-level encounters; he'll be getting nearly double xp until he catches up to party level -1, then 1.5 xp until he catches up all the way).

Now that said, I don't think she's going to accept his proposal at this time. For starters, "for the sake of our kid" is a -terrible- reason to propose.
How is murdering someone mostly-unprovoked Lawful? The only person she promised was herself. It was certainly Evil, and I wouldn't call it justified. There are very few things that can justify Murder, and pretty much all of them will get you an Evil aliment.

[SilverCacaobean]

The problem is we're at the point where we want to move along.

Of course. The obligatory "Let's hurry the story up, I don't want joke strips anymore" post.

There also were a couple of posts about how sexist this was, naturally, too.

Along with The_Weirdo posts that, at this point, I think, just count as declarations of deranged insanity. Yay for redundancy!

The comic might keep surprising me, but the forum does so less and less.

[Peelee]

it's from Spell Compendium.

Ah. I'd offer wry commentary about that, but you beat me to it.

[Linneris]

Seriously, people are being pretty terrible on this thread. Flame-triking Durkon wasn't chaotic (in fact, it's the most Lawful thing we've ever seen her do; she made a promise, and look, when there was a chance, she fulfilled it!); it wasn't Evil (in as much as murder can ever not be evil), and was mostly justified.
I'm pretty sure that killing someone for the horrible crime of being judgmental of you is an evil act and not justified, whatever moral system you subscribe to.

[zimmerwald1915]

She very likely will accept his help in raising Kudzu, though.
What on Earth makes you think that? The part where she's rich enough to not need child support, or the part where she physically stops Kuzdu from reaching out to Durkon?

Hilgya probably thinks that denying Durkon visitation is in Kuzdu's best interests, and she's probably not even wrong.

[Mordar]

The panel where she calls out the explicitly metamagiced spell is an argument against the spell that doesn't have a metamagic being called out being metamagiced.

Rather, I think she just got lucky on her damage roll.

Plus, you know...rule of funny.

- M

[Synesthesy]

Just to know, and sorry if someone else pointed it out in the last pages....

But being cold blood mudered by the mother of your son after having done a proposal, does count as a honorfull death or not?

[Rrmcklin]

She just did; that's what this was. She came here to find the father of her child, who abandoned her for stupid alignment reasons in an extremely cruel way, and murder him for revenge.

And then she got pulled into a whole "save the world" plot that was ever so much more important, particularly since her god was, in fact, actually on the side of "how about we not destroy the world." So fine, she'll join with his allies and save the person she swore revenge on.

And now the deed is done, she's saved him and the world, and...yes, it's totally justified murder time.

Seriously, people are being pretty terrible on this thread. Flame-triking Durkon wasn't chaotic (in fact, it's the most Lawful thing we've ever seen her do; she made a promise, and look, when there was a chance, she fulfilled it!); it wasn't Evil (in as much as murder can ever not be evil), and was mostly justified. Particularly since, having fulfilled her oath, she plans on raising him again (down two levels, sure, but frankly he'll be catching most of that up in around 10 at-level encounters; he'll be getting nearly double xp until he catches up to party level -1, then 1.5 xp until he catches up all the way).

Now that said, I don't think she's going to accept his proposal at this time. For starters, "for the sake of our kid" is a -terrible- reason to propose.

I mean, if you ever think the proper response to someone giving you some harsh words is to murder them, then...

Anyway, I found the punchline funny, but at the same time I kind of don't because I don't really like "casual murder" jokes, and especially not here when they basically say "death is cheap, so it's not terrible".

I don't know why anyone is talking about meeting Hel or him meeting his father, she's about the cast the spell again; he'll be back in 10 minutes.


And no, this person is very much not me.

Also: couldn't agree more.

Also also: she's Chaotic, so it's doubtful she'll marry Durkon "for Kudzu's sake". She very likely will accept his help in raising Kudzu, though.

I mean, I don't know why you think you agree with a position helps anyone else's case.

[zimmerwald1915]

He's more a "should be dealt with by the FBI and Homeland Security using multiple snipers and sustained automatic weapons fire as a domestic terrorist" villain
I too support extrajudicial assassinations on home soil by the state. There's no way that could go badly.

[Angband]

I don't think I have ever laughed as hard at this comic as I did for Flame Strike.

Awesomely done.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think she just got lucky on her damage roll.

I believe the word is "drama", not luck. She just got drama-y on her damage roll.

Huh, I can't turn "drama" into a verb or an adjective. I didn't think that was ever something I couldn't do in English. Thor damn it, that was the one thing English was nice about.


was mostly justified.

Murdering someone because they don't want to be with you is not justified. No, not even if they broke off with you after a one-night stand over moral positions you disagree with. And especially not after they just done apologizing for the manner in which they did so.

This isn't a slap to the face. This is burning someone to death.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

*Louder and slower* He saaaaaaaaaid... Flaaaaaaaaame striiiiiiiiiiiking Duuuuuuuuuurkooooooon... Is nooooooot Eeeeeevil!
I stand by my previous "get funnier" statement.

[The_Weirdo]

Along with The_Weirdo posts that, at this point, I think, just count as declarations of deranged insanity. Yay for redundancy!

Not every insanity is deranged, not every derangement is insane and I resemble that remark!


Hilgya probably thinks that denying Durkon visitation is in Kuzdu's best interests, and she's probably not even wrong.

Oh? Do go on, I wanna hear your views on that part.

[woweedd]

I believe the word is "drama", not luck. She just got drama-y on her damage roll.

Huh, I can't turn "drama" into a verb or an adjective. I didn't think that was ever something I couldn't do in English. Thor damn it, that was the one thing English was nice about.



Murdering someone because they don't want to be with you is not justified. No, not even if they broke off with you after a one-night stand over moral positions you disagree with. And especially not after they just done apologizing for the manner in which they did so.

This isn't a slap to the face. This is burning someone to death.

Grey Wolf

Dramatically. How did you miss it?

[zimmerwald1915]

I believe the word is "drama", not luck. She just got drama-y on her damage roll.
Six of one. Drama is the reason. Luck is the mechanic.


Huh, I can't turn "drama" into a verb or an adjective.
"Dramatize" and "dramatic," respectively. And huh. I thought you were a native speaker?

EDIT re above: "dramatically" is an adverb.

[Rrmcklin]

So....is this going to turn into another "Is Hilgya evil or not" 50 page thread?

[woweedd]

Not every insanity is deranged, not every derangement is insane and I resemble that remark!
Speaking as someone who is technically insane (by which I mean mild OCD) I do not wish to be associated with you.

[happycrow]

Never monologue at the lady (especially when she's chaotic evil). Just... don't do it. ;)

[The_Weirdo]

Speaking as someone who is technically insane (by which I mean mild OCD) I do not wish to be associated with you.

Mild depression, in my case. But, well, from what you folks already know about me, it's not exactly a surprise that I've got issues, no?

[Peelee]

I believe the word is "drama", not luck. She just got drama-y on her damage roll.

Huh, I can't turn "drama" into a verb or an adjective. I didn't think that was ever something I couldn't do in English. Thor damn it, that was the one thing English was nice about.

Dramatic. She got dramatic on her damage roll. Revenge of the English!

[tyckspoon]

Is it? I can only find the psionic version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm).

Grey Wolf

Spell Compendium and/or Miniature's Handbook - same spell, best as I can tell, but the Miniature's Handbook puts it on the Healer's spell list where the Spell Compendium only accounts for the core class lists. Level 5, takes 1k GP worth of diamonds instead of the psionic version's XP cost.

[woweedd]

So....is this going to turn into another "Is Hilgya evil or not" 50 page thread?
Hey, at least this time, it's about a comic in which Hilgya did, technically, appear.

[Peelee]

Six of one. Drama is the reason. Luck is the mechanic.


"Dramatize" and "dramatic," respectively. And huh. I thought you were a native speaker?

GW seems to speak so many languages that even if they revealed their native tongue, it would likely be confused by posters for one the many others commanded.

[Alexandrite]

I think the fact that 'cold-blooded murder was acceptable and justified' is being argued here is a sign that some people need to step back and reconsider their thought process before posting again.

In the end though, how this is treated in-story matters more and realistically Hilgya shouldn't get a pass for this and the Order shouldn't feel obligated to stick by her after that action. I feel like it won't go that way, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

[The Extinguisher]

I never know whats worse about these threads. The people that uncritically decry Hilgya, or the people that uncritically support her.

[TuringTest]

Hahahaha, yes I can understand that response to a sudden proposal. Over the top, but relateable

I was going to say it was overkill...


I think the fact that 'cold-blooded murder was acceptable and justified' is being argued here is a sign that some people need to step back and reconsider their thought process before posting again.
That may be because it's a fantasy comic .

People distinguish it clearly from reality, and besides, death is definitely much less severe in a D&D setting were Resurrection is relatively common. Her reaction would be equivalent in the real world to slapping Durkon very hard slap. Objectionable violence, without a doubt, but not comparable to real world murder.

[Fyraltari]

Raising him is basic decency considering what had been done to him with his body being used as an undead tool. Hell, it could be considered a Neutral action to raise him just to restore his prior state of existence.
Huh, no? Diamond ain't cheap you know.

He's in the temple of Thor [...] this was in the middle of the main Dwarven temple of Thor
No, it is not.

Not a significant part of the forum.:smalltongue:

Also, judging by some of the replies I see, my hopes to clear out the Ignore list are dashed.
https://media1.giphy.com/media/l2RsBwQxFPXUvXmi0u/200w.gif?cid=3640f6095c17f9c54f7a44384d90c0b0

She's there, in that situation, with her power and capabilities which she can simply refresh the next day. And didn't the Order provide the diamond or were planning to? I remember Roy and Haley talking about pooling their resources and how there might not be enough to get Durkon raised and pay the crew of the Mechane or some such.

Even if the Order didn't provide the diamond, the wealth is obviously trivial to her.
By that logic, any rich character who doesn't go around funding people's resurrection is Evil.

I'm pretty sure getting killed by a surprise attack counts as "dying in combat," which is what dying honorably means.
Nitpicking: Dying in combat is a sub-set o dying honorably. This still would count, though.

If Hilgya had been a man, she'd not have been married off at crossbow point.

If Durkon had been a woman, the mere thought of "her" telling male Hilgya to retun to such a marriage would seem absurd, instead of, as it was, merely repugnant.

Maybe she should be forced to marry someone she despises at crossbow point?
And, here we go again.

I can't say this wasn't predictable and thus sadly not so funny.

The problem is we're at the point where we want to move along. We just went through a long (but justified) exposition and we even have the new quest for the party regarding Red Cloak - but we still need to get through the Exarch and Hel's vote even though the outcome of those is also very clear.

I just don't feel like wasting time on another page is all that great.


On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if this would be an excuse not to bring Minrah back? If Hylga has enough diamonds for an extra resurrect but not enough for a third one.
Speak for yourself. Literally.


They're in a major temple of Thor
No they're not.


The only person who absolutely couldn't show up is High Priestess Rubyrock, because she's sequestered for Godsmoot, any other suitably high-level Cleric could end up getting the divine call to go raise this guy NOW.


Hilgya, before the cold blooded murder she committed in this strip, was simply a few minutes more expedient than the rest.

Technically, at this moment, Durkon could be brought back in 2 rounds by someone else. . .a Cleric of Thor elsewhere that casts Word of Recall, followed by Raise Dead. Probably a few more rounds for Thor Himself to give the message and the Cleric to figure out what's going on once he gets there, but it's hardly a big delay since Clerics get a 6th level spell they can use to teleport back to places that are extremely familiar to them, like their home temple.
If Thor could mobilize his forces like that he would have already.
Also this isn't a temple.

We have no indication whatsoever as to how much Hilgya knows of what's going on aside from the vampires.
Yes we do and yes she does. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1106.html)

[The Aboleth]

I'm pretty sure getting killed by a surprise attack counts as "dying in combat," which is what dying honorably means.

And even if it wasn't considered combat, Durkon died in the course of acting honorably (promising to be there for Kudzu and Hilgya), which would also count. Rich is on record as saying there are non-combat ways of dying honorably and thus avoiding Hel (the Dwarven blizzard story he posted awhile back, for example).

EDIT: I also absolutely detest the notion that Durkon "deserved" to be killed in this strip. Proposing to someone doesn't warrant an execution, period. Being judgmental months ago--as Durkon admits he was--also doesn't mean he deserves to get murdered. Hilgya was 1000% wrong in this situation.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, that was a sweet apology from Durkon, although he definitely went a little overboard at the end there. Makes a nice tie-in for how Hilgya decides to get her revenge, although I think that she will have to ultimately come up with a better answer for "how to best raise Kudzu" than "make sure his father stays dead". Also, the reactions of OOTS are hilarious.

[Ruck]

I'd say something about them getting Laurin to resurrect Durkon instead, except someone would take it seriously.

Laurin somehow polymorphed into Bloodfeast and switched places, and is waiting until now to reveal herself. Either that, or the Snarl took over her mind and is going to create a rift here to use her powers to Revivify Durkon.


I believe the word is "drama", not luck. She just got drama-y on her damage roll.

Huh, I can't turn "drama" into a verb or an adjective. I didn't think that was ever something I couldn't do in English. Thor damn it, that was the one thing English was nice about.

As others said, "dramatic" is probably as close as it gets, although that has enough multiple meanings to not be as clear as "drama-y."

[truthwatcher]

You noticed that when Hilgya casts Flame Strike, one of her hands is empty, and the other one is touching Kudzu?
And remember that clerics need to touch their Holy Symbol to cast most spells?

Theory Kudzu-Living-Holy-Symbol confirmed!

[jwhouk]

I too support extrajudicial assassinations on home soil by the state. There's no way that could go badly.

You forgot to put in the </sarcasm> tag again, zim.

[Albion]

So Hilgya's sheer jerkassishness is now actively putting the world at risk? "Overstaying their welcome" comes to mind.

And considering that Belkar is shown angry after Durkon gets flame-struck, I get the feeling that his rage is not directed at Durkon anymore, but at Hilgya (and rightly so).

Yes, he seems to be reacting all grown-up, sane and serious now. Empathic, even. Like a decent citizen! OK, let's not get carried away, but right now he's being a teamplayer, a sensible person and I assume feeling as one kinda should.

[woweedd]

You noticed that when Hilgya casts Flame Strike, one of her hands is empty, and the other one is touching Kudzu?
And remember that clerics need to touch their Holy Symbol to cast most spells?

Theory Kudzu-Living-Holy-Symbol confirmed!
A. Since when?
B. She's covering his eyes.

[zimmerwald1915]

You forgot to put in the </sarcasm> tag again, zim.
I trust in my natural wit and command of rhetoric to help readers identify my sarcasm, when I employ it. If you're any indication, it seems to be working.

[mneme]

How is murdering someone mostly-unprovoked Lawful? The only person she promised was herself. It was certainly Evil, and I wouldn't call it justified. There are very few things that can justify Murder, and pretty much all of them will get you an Evil aliment.

Well, for starters, by Norse standards it's not murder. She didn't hide herself or her name; she's not an outlaw (technically, he is, ish), and she had a reason for the killing, so...not murder. (yes, norse ethics are a bit odd by our standards).

This isn't our world. This is D&D (and for the dwarves, norse D&D). In D&D, killing isn't evil. Killing for greed, or for no reason is evil. Killing for a host of other reasons is neutral or good. In this case? It's a declared feud, so the killing is basically LN.

So yes, for the ones in the back: Flame-striking Durkon isn't evil (in this case).

[The_Weirdo]

Well, that was a sweet apology from Durkon, although he definitely went a little overboard at the end there. Makes a nice tie-in for how Hilgya decides to get her revenge, although I think that she will have to ultimately come up with a better answer for "how to best raise Kudzu" than "make sure his father stays dead". Also, the reactions of OOTS are hilarious.

There are a few better ways of making sure the man stays dead than resurrecting him again...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Dramatize" and "dramatic," respectively.
I mean, sure, they are the correct form, but I don't think the work in the sentence.

"She just got dramatic on her damage roll" sounds to me more like she went full-diva, which is definitely not what I wanted to convey.


And huh. I thought you were a native speaker?
Good grief no.


GW seems to speak so many languages that even if they revealed their native tongue, it would likely be confused by posters for one the many others commanded.

It's, unfortunately, more a case of "I have forgotten more languages than most ever even learn".

Grey Wolf

[Jade_Tarem]

Re: Humor

The discussion of whether or not there's a decent punchline here got me thinking. While whether it's funny or not is always going to be somewhat subjective, comedy does have a couple of rules. The first is the subversion of expectation, which is required for humor and horror alike - it's why poorly done comedy is horrifying and poorly done horror is hilarious. We have that here. Flame strikes are not typically how proposals end, but they do sort of fit Hilgya's character and the conceit of the setting, so it's a subversion and not just random. Check.

The second is timing. We have a solid beat and it occurs at an appropriate moment. Check.

The third, though, is Punch Up, and here... here's where things might fall apart. When you're hurting someone for comedic purposes, you have to Punch Up, that is, your target needs to be more powerful than you. This is why it's funny when the Roadrunner gets the best of the Coyote - the Coyote is the predator here. He has claws and fangs and an unlimited supply of ACME products. He has the power. It's why every comedian, no matter how successful and rich, presents themselves as a grubby and/or neurotic loser. It's why the fool can make fun of anyone in the King's court - he's lower than everyone.

The rule is not universal. Sometimes it can be funny when, for instance, the evil overlord punishes his goofy minions for failing to do whatever nefarious thing they were supposed to do in any of a dozen children's cartoons. But that's only funny because they're evil minions with no redeeming qualities - and because we know, just like the Coyote, they'll be fine when we see them again. Sometimes rich or powerful characters say legitimately funny things, though these tend to be untargeted statements.

The problem is that Durkon doesn't have the power here. Hilgya can casually kill him in a single blow (and is also holding his son), and does. He isn't an evil anything, just a guy who recently went through hell and is trying not to repeat the mistakes that he could only see clearly from the other side of the veil. He's also not going to be unscathed from this - level loss is a serious thing, especially if it bumps you out of a whole spell level, and the rest of the world is at stake here too and might, y'know, need him to be at his best. Hilgya's bit of physical comedy isn't consequence free, and any sympathy she garners from 'being married off at crossbow point' sort of goes out the window when she has the power to obliterate high level characters with little effort. That's why it's clearly a joke, but not everyone is laughing - whether you find it funny of not depends almost entirely on how much you think those consequences might matter.

[Lord of stuff]

Ok, since I’m a man, I will need a little help with this one. Does flame strike count as a solid ”no” or is it a ”maybe, i need time to think”?

[Aquillion]

Well, for starters, by Norse standards it's not murder. She didn't hide herself or her name; she's not an outlaw (technically, he is, ish), and she had a reason for the killing, so...not murder. (yes, norse ethics are a bit odd by our standards).

This isn't our world. This is D&D (and for the dwarves, norse D&D). In D&D, killing isn't evil. Killing for greed, or for no reason is evil. Killing for a host of other reasons is neutral or good. In this case? It's a declared feud, so the killing is basically LN.

So yes, for the ones in the back: Flame-striking Durkon isn't evil (in this case).
It isn't chaotic. Whether she's following the laws or not has no bearing on whether it's evil.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, for starters, by Norse standards it's not murder. She didn't hide herself or her name; she's not an outlaw (technically, he is, ish), and she had a reason for the killing, so...not murder. (yes, norse ethics are a bit odd by our standards).

This isn't our world. This is D&D (and for the dwarves, norse D&D). In D&D, killing isn't evil. Killing for greed, or for no reason is evil. Killing for a host of other reasons is neutral or good. In this case? It's a declared feud, so the killing is basically LN.

So yes, for the ones in the back: Flame-striking Durkon isn't evil (in this case).

So your you're just ignoring that Dwarves having some Norse dressing doesn't somehow mean they actually are Norse and that "In D&D such and such is okay" is something this comic rails against fairly often? Understood.

And that's even assuming you'd have a point about this not being considered evil by standard D&D.

[Synesthesy]

Ok, since I’m a man, I will need a little help with this one. Does flame strike count as a solid ”no” or is it a ”maybe, i need time to think”?

It may even be a yes for what we know right now :P

[Peelee]

It's, unfortunately, more a case of "I have forgotten more languages than most ever even learn".

Grey Wolf
My dad was the same way. I think he was mildly amused when he lamented forgetting his ancient Greek. Could also do a ton of accents just spot on. Crazy impressive. I, unfortunately, did not inherit his work ethic.

Laurin somehow polymorphed into Bloodfeast and switched places, and is waiting until now to reveal herself.
I don't know why you bluetexted that, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, for starters, by Norse standards it's not murder. She didn't hide herself or her name; she's not an outlaw (technically, he is, ish), and she had a reason for the killing, so...not murder. (yes, norse ethics are a bit odd by our standards).

This isn't our world. This is D&D (and for the dwarves, norse D&D). In D&D, killing isn't evil. Killing for greed, or for no reason is evil. Killing for a host of other reasons is neutral or good. In this case? It's a declared feud, so the killing is basically LN.

So yes, for the ones in the back: Flame-striking Durkon isn't evil (in this case).
Mr. Burlew is no more a Ninth-Century Scandinavian lawyer than he is an astronomer. Any legal principles brought up in the comic have always been grounded in modern American law, because that is the sort with which Mr. Burlew is familiar. And modern American law (theoretically; practically, any number of people have a license to kill) takes a dim view of willful killings not in self-defense or in war.

As for D&D, "'Evil' implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. " (emphasis added). There are a host of reasons besides greed that would make a killing evil, including for convenience's sake or, more germane to your point, out of duty. Also, you totally made up the bit about a "declared feud." What Hilgya had was personal vendetta.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ok, since I’m a man, I will need a little help with this one. Does flame strike count as a solid ”no” or is it a ”maybe, i need time to think”?
This thought process is less characteristic of "men" than of "sitcom characters."

[Nephrahim]

The only problem with this strip (And poor Rich for being bound to it) is the rules for Raise Dead.

If the whole gag was "I rezzed him to kill him, whatever, I'll raise him again, I've got tons of diamonds." Then no harm, no foul.

The problem is because we know the rules, and many of us (Myself very much included) are too much of rules lawyers and min-maxers to take the loss of a level just for the sake of a "I'll kill and rez him again." gag. Especially when they're at a point where clearly every level counts, the final fight with Xykon (And who knows what else before and after) can't be that far ahead.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

by Norse standards it's not murder.
What is this "Norse" you speak of? Is it near Japan?


Ok, since I’m a man, I will need a little help with this one. Does flame strike count as a solid ”no” or is it a ”maybe, i need time to think”?

Your guess is as good as mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23576952&postcount=61).

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

Man do threads get out of control fast for new comics.

[zimmerwald1915]

The problem is because we know the rules, and many of us (Myself very much included) are too much of rules lawyers and min-maxers to take the loss of a level just for the sake of a "I'll kill and rez him again." gag. Especially when they're at a point where clearly every level counts, the final fight with Xykon (And who knows what else before and after) can't be that far ahead.
XP is a river, and there is significant combat (with Gontor's vampire, and in the next book) ahead of the party.

Also, it's less every level that counts in high-level 3.5 and more every spell level. And Durkon would be down one spell level whether he was raised once or twice.

[Dion]

So do we all agree that Hilgya is chaotic evil, with a capital E, now?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The only problem with this strip (And poor Rich for being bound to it) is the rules for Raise Dead.

If the whole gag was "I rezzed him to kill him, whatever, I'll raise him again, I've got tons of diamonds." Then no harm, no foul.

The problem is because we know the rules, and many of us (Myself very much included) are too much of rules lawyers and min-maxers to take the loss of a level just for the sake of a "I'll kill and rez him again." gag. Especially when they're at a point where clearly every level counts, the final fight with Xykon (And who knows what else before and after) can't be that far ahead.

You are overthinking it. Durkon will be powerful enough for what comes ahead, even after two lost levels. If he needs him to only lose the one level, Durkon died with an extra level we never saw. If he needs him to not lose any? Killing Greg gave him another level.


So do we all agree that Hilgya is chaotic evil, with a capital E, now?

Oh, my sweet summer child.
Yes, I will keep saying this so long as The Weirdo is amongst us.
Grey Wolf

[mneme]

So your response is a bunch of platitudes that no one should take seriously? Understood.

No, my response is that people who don't understand feud law shouldn't impose modern morality on a culture that pretty clearly runs on feud law, and will look like ignoramouses when they do.

And also that anyone who thinks a world where paladins slaughtering goblins because they've moved in the neighborhood and are "usually evil" isn't evil, while Hilgya completing a declared feud is, might want to rethink their cultural bias and the assumptions they've carried into D&D while ignoring the way they're casually violated at the most basic level.

That said, of course she's clearly chaotic. I think probably CN; her taking the Linear Guild commission prevents her from being good, but if Belkar is the gold standard of CE, her lack of -any- whim-based or random killings (this one aside, but again, feud) seems to make it less likely that she's evil (but then, who cares if it doesn't affect her actions?)

[Nephrahim]

Eh, in that case fair enough I suppose. Personally I feel like you should have a mulligan built in when you die and are rezed one minutes later anyway. Pretty sure people in real life have come back from being "Dead" for longer times than that with no negative effects.

[Pyrotechnical]

Re: Humor

The problem is that Durkon doesn't have the power here. Hilgya can casually kill him in a single blow (and is also holding his son), and does. He isn't an evil anything, just a guy who recently went through hell and is trying not to repeat the mistakes that he could only see clearly from the other side of the veil. He's also not going to be unscathed from this - level loss is a serious thing, especially if it bumps you out of a whole spell level, and the rest of the world is at stake here too and might, y'know, need him to be at his best. Hilgya's bit of physical comedy isn't consequence free, and any sympathy she garners from 'being married off at crossbow point' sort of goes out the window when she has the power to obliterate high level characters with little effort. That's why it's clearly a joke, but not everyone is laughing - whether you find it funny of not depends almost entirely on how much you think those consequences might matter.

If you're gonna make statements like that, you might want to check if a man just completely took away a woman's agency to speak for herself by interrupting, going on a 13+ panels spree to tell her about his personal growth, how much he cares about her because she's the mother of his son, and then thrusts a major life decision on her. Honestly, I think her response was both hilarious and reasonable.

Hilgya for CN!

[Aquillion]

The problem is that Durkon doesn't have the power here. Hilgya can casually kill him in a single blow (and is also holding his son), and does.Hmm. First, I don't agree that Durkon is without power. Viewed through a traditional lens, this sort of proposal does give Durkon some power (and in-universe, Hilgya, who experienced a pretty nasty traditional marriage, would definitely view it that way.) If she weren't Chaotic Evil, Hilgya would feel immense pressure to accept his highly-public apology and proposal, say. This (https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/03/marriage-proposals-are-stupid/556403/) article discusses the sometimes problematic nature of these public unexpected proposals a bit (and in this case it's coupled with a request for forgiveness, which, again, had a heavy degree of pressure behind it even if Durkon didn't intend it.) None of that justifies Hilgya murdering him, of course, but her excessive over-the-top Chaotic Evil reaction is part of the joke.

But beyond that, I'm skeptical because by that logic, "dark" or murderous-slapstick humor is never valid (because anyone who could kill anyone else always has power, at least temporarily.) The fact that Hilgya temporarily has the power to flame strike Durkon to death doesn't necessarily invalidate that. (Also, she's surrounded by his friends, so she doesn't actually have as much power as you say - if she didn't immediately revive him again, say, they'd probably kill her. Although we don't know how long it's been, so it's possible they're all pretty beaten up.)

I think the humor here comes from the violation of expectations - Hilgya is expected to take one role and ends up in another.

Also, I'd argue that punching up is about good humor, for a certain definition of good. Part of the reason dark humor is called that is because there's a sickly, uncomfortable edge to it. It's totally possible to be funny while telling inappropriate jokes. I've got nothing against people saying "those jokes are inappropriate, so stop", but humor itself doesn't have moral value - it can be used to "wicked" ends, so to speak. Historically it often has been.

Part of what I was referring to with that sort of "Joker humor" is that half the joke is on the audience - sort of "you laughed! You shouldn't have laughed, but you did! Gotcha!"

[GrayDeath]

Just how powerful is Hilgya that a single Flame Strike is able to kill a high level dwarf cleric with full hit points?


Hah, I guess everyone who said she was resurrecting Durkon just for the satisfaction of killing him herself were right.


Unless she is REALLY OP (say Level 18 or somesuch) and that was a True Ressurection and hence without Level Loss, we now know Hylgia is stupid AND vindictive.
Maybe Thor will grant him a Level or 4? ^^


Also havent laughed that lud ina while.

I was sure something like that may happen, though Durkon proposing right after being ressurected DID catch me unprepared....

[Rrmcklin]

No, my response is that people who don't understand feud law shouldn't impose modern morality on a culture that pretty clearly runs on feud law, and will look like ignoramouses when they do.

And also that anyone who thinks a world where paladins slaughtering goblins because they've moved in the neighborhood and are "usually evil" isn't evil, while Hilgya completing a declared feud is, might want to rethink their cultural bias and the assumptions they've carried into D&D while ignoring the way they're casually violated at the most basic level.

That said, of course she's clearly chaotic. I think probably CN; her taking the Linear Guild commission prevents her from being good, but if Belkar is the gold standard of CE, her lack of -any- whim-based or random killings (this one aside, but again, feud) seems to make it less likely that she's evil (but then, who cares if it doesn't affect her actions?)

I changed my response to be more indepth so that quote is accurate, but it still doesn't change that you're talking about a lot of thing that don't matter for the situation to claim that murdering someone is somehow not evil, and it's very transparent that's what you're doing. I don't particularly care if it's chaotic or lawful, and most other people also seem to be off that line of thought.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

a culture that pretty clearly runs on feud law

[citation needed]

Grey Wolf

[Verappo]

And that's why surprise proposals don't work

[zimmerwald1915]

No, my response is that people who don't understand feud law shouldn't impose modern morality on a culture that pretty clearly runs on feud law, and will look like ignoramouses when they do.
What basis do you have to say that Dwarven society permits blood feuds? Other than looking vaguely like another society did so at one point in its history? If you squint?

[Lord of stuff]

Your guess is as good as mine

Grey Wolf

Women are so difficult to understand.

[rasborry]

Quite the expensive bitch slap

[Fyraltari]

Scene: unknown dwarf cleric of Thor is preparing spells. Finishes preparing spells and turns to a bystander

"Huh, I was only granted "Word of Recall" to Thor's temple, and a bunch of Resurrections and Raise Dead. Clearly Thor needs me to raise a few people there in a hurry. Word of Recall!"
*Arrives at the temple*
Unknwon Cleric: Who needs saving!?
Tinna: Nobody here, but a group of adventurers left hours ago with my colleague.
UC: Where did they go?
T: ... I don't actually know.

Except nobody is laughing at this.

I certainly am not getting the vibe from the crowd here that this was a "funny" comic, more of a dramatic one with Durkon showing his character growth and Hilgya making her lack of growth from the first time she appeared known (and demonstrating CE alignment, since her alignment had been questioned a lot since her return).
Lot's of people are laughing at it. It's a classic "slapstick" joke.


Must I blue-text every joke I make?
You could also get saner. I was exposed enough to your particular brand of irrationality to (mainly)
guess when you are serious and when you are not, butthe world shouldn't have to suffer as I have.


Come on folks, chill out on Hilgya. This is the DM being mean.

Durkon's player: "Do I get all Greg's xp?"

DM: "Sure, you just got rezzed by Hilgya, go down one level."

Durkon's player: "cool, I'm still up one level! I thank Hilgya and say sorry and ask her to marry me!"

DM: "She flame strikes you. LOL."

There's only one monster here, and it sits behind the dm screen.
There are no DM or player. There is only The Giant.

*Bloody hell Fyraltari. Do you really need that many vowels?
Oui. Just be thankful it isn't spelled "dénœument" like it should be.


The panel where she calls out the explicitly metamagiced spell is an argument against the spell that doesn't have a metamagic being called out being metamagiced.

Rather, I think she just got lucky on her damage roll.
I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I think you are telling me that "Empowered X" is not a different spell from X but just saying you are boosting X with stuff?

What, for asking someone else be resurrected? I mean, sure, Hilgya will be Hilgya, but if she ain't refusing visitation rights on the basis she doesn't like Durkon, I'm not sure that raising an ex-ally will make up her mind on that.

Grey Wolf
For suspecting he sleeps with her. That was her original assumption was it not?

Rob a bank, return the money, plead it wasn't actually theft, and let me know how that turns out.:smallamused:
I have one or two pithy answer to that, but politics are banned here.

Just to know, and sorry if someone else pointed it out in the last pages....

But being cold blood mudered by the mother of your son after having done a proposal, does count as a honorfull death or not?
It's being debated, some think yes and some are wrong.

Not every insanity is deranged, not every derangement is insane and I resemble that remark!
Agreed.


Oh? Do go on, I wanna hear your views on that part.
*Braces for impact*

[mneme]

What is this "Norse" you speak of? Is it near Japan?


Morally? Yeah, sure.

Examples of LN acts in Japan:

A paladin striking a child's head off because the child looked out a window at the wrong time.

Might even be LG (because the paladin was justified in killing the child's entire family).

The world is a very strange place, with very strange customs. Many of them unpleasant.

[The_Weirdo]

So do we all agree that Hilgya is chaotic evil, with a capital E, now?

Depends. How encompassing is your "we"?


You could also get saner.

Working on it.

[Kish]

The only problem with this strip (And poor Rich for being bound to it) is the rules for Raise Dead.

If the whole gag was "I rezzed him to kill him, whatever, I'll raise him again, I've got tons of diamonds." Then no harm, no foul.

The problem is because we know the rules, and many of us (Myself very much included) are too much of rules lawyers and min-maxers to take the loss of a level just for the sake of a "I'll kill and rez him again." gag.
I suspect from Rich's point of view, "This will cause pain to the D&D rules lawyers I haven't managed to shake off yet" is a feature, not a bug.

[Aquillion]

I mean, there could just be a houserule that multiple raise deads / resurrections in a short timeframe don't impose an additional level loss. That's not an uncommon ruling to avoid extreme feelbad moments or situations where one person ends up far behind the rest of the party.

[SilverCacaobean]

I never know whats worse about these threads. The people that uncritically decry Hilgya, or the people that uncritically support her.

Two sides of the same uncritical coin.


So....is this going to turn into another "Is Hilgya evil or not" 50 page thread?

What are you talking about?! She just killed Durkon in cold blood, unprovoked after he apologized to her! So... Yes? :smalltongue:


No, my response is that people who don't understand feud law shouldn't impose modern morality on a culture that pretty clearly runs on feud law, and will look like ignoramouses when they do.

Do you think Rich understands feud law or something? He's literally said that his art is "petty escapism" if it doesn't have anything to say about the real world. So, I very much doubt he wants us to judge the comic by non-modern morality.

[Peelee]

Morally? Yeah, sure.

Examples of LN acts in Japan:

A paladin striking a child's head off because the child looked out a window at the wrong time.

Might even be LG (because the paladin was justified in killing the child's entire family).

The world is a very strange place, with very strange customs. Many of them unpleasant.

Even stranger since it's not the OotS world, which you seem to keep disregarding for some off reason.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

*Arrives at the temple*
Unknwon Cleric: Who needs saving!?
Tinna: Nobody here, but a group of adventurers left hours ago with my colleague.
UC: Where did they go?
T: ... I don't actually know.

...

Fyraltari, there is a trail of dead bodies starting immediately outside the door. Yes, many of them did get up and got burnt or re-killed a ways down, but not that far either, and IIRC, not all of them were vampires pretending to be corpses. There is plenty to do for every available Thor cleric in the region.

(Lack of funds, though, will probably be an issue, as we saw with the mining accident).

I wasn't suggesting THor will send a cleric to raise Durkon, so much as Thor has a way to transmit the message "people need resurrecting at your word of recall destination".


Morally? Yeah, sure.

Good, because there is no Japan in this comic, just as there is no Norse in this comic, and your entire argument is therefore invalid by default, by your own admission.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I think you are telling me that "Empowered X" is not a different spell from X but just saying you are boosting X with stuff?
The Empower Spell feat, when applied to a spell:

1) Raises the spell slot it occupies by two levels. Flame Strike is a fifth-level spell. Empowered Flame Strike is a seventh-level spell.
2) Causes all variable, numeric traits of the spell to be multiplied by 1.5. Flame Strike does 1d6/caster level damage, half fire and half divine. Empowered Flame Strike does (1d6/caster level) * 1.5 damage, half fire and half divine.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I think you are telling me that "Empowered X" is not a different spell from X but just saying you are boosting X with stuff?
Learn more superannuated D&D rules :smalltongue:

There are a series of feats that spellcasters (well, anyone, but only spellcasters can benefit from them) can take called "metamagic feats." They operate to change the usual mechanics of a spell in some way. For example, the feat Empower Spell allows the spellcaster to multiply their rolled damage by 1.5, if they prepare the spell in a spell slot two levels higher than it would normally occupy (or, if they're a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer, they cast the spell out of the higher-level slot without needing to prepare it). Other examples of metamagic feats used in the comic include Maximize Spell, used by Xykon, and Extend Spell and Quicken Spell used by Vaarsuvius (Vaarsuvius has also used both Maximize Spell and Empower Spell). Maximized and Empowered spells are more powerful than their ordinary counterparts, while Extended spells last longer and Quickened spells have a shortened casting time (allowing you to cast multiple spells in one round).

Note: "Mass" is not a metamagic, but is as you supposed; an upgraded, higher-level version of the base spell, that exists as a discrete spell.

[Themrys]

I'm pretty sure that killing someone for the horrible crime of being judgmental of you is an evil act and not justified, whatever moral system you subscribe to.

There are moral systems in the real world that consider killing someone with fire for speaking truths they don't approve of perfectly justified and normal. And they are not exactly in the minority, even.


This is a world where people can return from being dead, and Hilgya clearly intends to bring Durkon back again, so what she did was essentially just causing him quite a lot of pain. (Probably. He must have been dead pretty fast, so perhaps she was just making her point in a dramatic fashion, mostly.)



I try to feel bad for Durkon, but after that monologue without even waiting for Hilgya to accept his apology, he was really very rude.

... and her response really had style.

Rule of cool. :smalltongue:


I would like to point out that she didn't say "No". I will totally say I called it if she does accept his proposal. (Not to say that a woman's implied No isn't totally valid. But she might change her opinion after some more plot happens, if Durkon respects her implied no.)

[Jade_Tarem]

Hmm. I'm skeptical because by that logic, "dark" humor is never valid (because anyone who could kill anyone else always has power, at least temporarily.) Viewed through a traditional lens, this sort of proposal does give Durkon some power (and in-universe, Hilgya, who experienced a pretty nasty traditional marriage, would definitely view it that way.) If she weren't Chaotic Evil, Hilgya would feel immense pressure to accept his highly-public apology and proposal, say.

The fact that Hilgya temporarily has the power to flame strike Durkon to death doesn't necessarily invalidate that. (Also, she's surrounded by his friends, so she doesn't actually have as much power as you say - if she didn't immediately revive him again, say, they'd probably kill her. Although we don't know how long it's been, so it's possible they're all pretty beaten up.)

But I think the humor here comes from the violation of expectations - Hilgya is expected to take one role and ends up in another.

Also, I'd argue that punching up is about good humor, for a certain definition of good. Part of the reason dark humor is called that is because there's a sickly, uncomfortable edge to it. It's totally possible to be funny while telling inappropriate jokes. I've got nothing against people saying "those jokes are inappropriate, so stop", but humor itself doesn't have moral value - it can be used to "wicked" ends, so to speak. Historically it often has been.

Part of what I was referring to with that sort of "Joker humor" is that half the joke is on the audience - a sort of "you laughed! You shouldn't have laughed, but you did! Gotcha!"

Dark humor is a bit tricky, yes, but I was basing my statement about power on the mechanics of the setting. It's hard to one-shot someone with a flame strike, especially at the level the Order is at now. In the real world, anyone can kill just about anyone - as you've said - but in DnD it's actually incredibly rare to die from the damage of a single spell once your level has hit double digits. That it occurred, and that Hilgya doesn't seem the least bit surprised that she was able to snuff him that easily, is a bit scary.

It's possible she just got really lucky on her spell damage roll. It's possible Durkon's Con score is lower than we were led to believe. It's highly likely that I'm overthinking this. Still, all we have to go on is what we've seen, and what we've seen indicates that killing Durkon is no big deal to her. Joker humor aside, I didn't laugh when she killed him - my first thought was literally, "uh, you're gonna want Durkon to have those spell slots, Hilgya."

Finally, half of Joker humor is that we don't have much of a connection to the characters getting Joker'd on. His funniest brutality is always to one-scene wonders. No one laughed when he shot Batgirl, even though there was a punchline. Even in the Dark Knight, his 'magic trick' is funny but burning Harvey Dent's face off... isn't. Once you start doing horrible things to sympathetic characters, dark comedy gets tougher and tougher.

[Aquillion]

This is a world where people can return from being dead, and Hilgya clearly intends to bring Durkon back again, so what she did was essentially just causing him quite a lot of pain. (Probably. He must have been dead pretty fast, so perhaps she was just making her point in a dramatic fashion, mostly.)And probably also a lost level, which is the main effect of this. But I do agree that morals are very different in a world where injury and even death can be flawlessly and magically healed without serious long-term consequence. (Even his lost level will eventually recover in the sense that he'll earn more XP until he catches up.)

Still, I think that in the overall context of her character, this is a Chaotic Evil overreaction to a genuine provocation (ie. Durkon was a bit of a jerk to publicly put her on the spot like that after not seeing or contacting her for months on end, but her response was meant to be humorously over-the-top and inappropriate as a way of illustrating her nature as opposed to Durkon's.)

[Ruck]

The only problem with this strip (And poor Rich for being bound to it) is the rules for Raise Dead.

If the whole gag was "I rezzed him to kill him, whatever, I'll raise him again, I've got tons of diamonds." Then no harm, no foul.

The problem is because we know the rules, and many of us (Myself very much included) are too much of rules lawyers and min-maxers to take the loss of a level just for the sake of a "I'll kill and rez him again." gag. Especially when they're at a point where clearly every level counts, the final fight with Xykon (And who knows what else before and after) can't be that far ahead.

On the one-hand, yeah, as someone who wants to see the Order succeed, it drives me a little crazy that Durkon lost a level out of Hilgya's spite. On the other, I feel pretty confident that Rich is aware of this facet of Resurrection, and that said level will not be an obstacle the Order can't overcome. Heck, maybe the Order even tells Hilgya how time-sensitive their world-saving quest is, and she does something for them that she wouldn't have otherwise.


(Also, she's surrounded by his friends, so she doesn't actually have as much power as you say - if she didn't immediately revive him again, say, they'd probably kill her. Although we don't know how long it's been, so it's possible they're all pretty beaten up.)

They all look healed up to me.


I don't know why you bluetexted that, though.

My text has polymorphed itself into sarcasm until the time is right to reveal itself as seriousness.

Whoops, it happened again.

And again.

...Okay, that's better.

[dtilque]

OOh, I bet this doesn't count as an honorable death. Maybe we will get 10 minutes of Hel glaring at durkon?

Raise Dead only takes one minute; Revivify only takes a standard action. And we're unlikely to see what happens during that minute if it does happen.

[King of Nowhere]

Yes, there is often a double standard when it comes to this kind of stuff. But I think, at least for myself, if the genders were reversed but the situation otherwise exactly the same, I think is still find it funny. Because rejecting an unexpected (probably unwanted) proposal is relateable, but the reaction is over the top and thus funny.

I don't see magical murder as quite the same, gut reaction wise, as visible beating someone either. Because it's obviously fictional, so you can separate from the reality and find amusement in the absurdity.

As i said, I have no problem with harsh jokes in general. Heck, one of my favourite movies has one of the main characters being forced into a marriage, after he seduced the daughter of a criminal to get money to start a drug scheme. I have no problem with it there because the movie doesn't make moral statements, at least not in that regard. Also, the guy is a selfish jerkass, while durkon is one of the best men around, so statements like "he deserved it" fall flat on durkon's case.

My problem is that rich burlew took certain stances about sexism and gender and politically correct that lead me to believe he would not tell the same joke with opposed genders.
For example, when he deppicted the lizardfolk prostitute with fake breasts, some people took it as a joke on transgender people and were upset, and rich reply contains the following statement


However, all of that explanation doesn't really matter, because some of you read it differently and were upset by it. It's my job to know how my jokes are going to land, and if I can't predict (within reason) how people are going to take something, then I shouldn't be joking about it in the first place. It's my responsibility to make sure my comic isn't hurting anyone. I apologize without reservation for any pain I may have caused anyone, even after all this time, for a joke that was not intended in that way at all. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23426825&postcount=137)
I, for one, think that rich is being too cautious, that's virtually impossible to do anything without offending anyone. But if you want to try to not offend anyone, then making a man persecuted by a spurned lover the butt of a joke goes against it. Especially the part about the man humiliating himself to try to regain the woman's favor. I think I would have been fine if hilgya had smoked durkon without words.

Mind you, I don't say rich is being a hypocrite, and I'm sure he does not think violence of woman on man is less bad than violence of man on woman. I'm sure he does not realize he was making a potentially offensive joke; as I said, it's virtually impossible to not offend anyone, and so it's a given that no matter how hard you try, you'll fail sometimes.

My brother was beaten by his wife several times, the last time the scars took months to fade. She stalkered him, forced him to take videos of where he was because she was jealous, got him in trouble at work because she got mad when he didn't answer immediately (yes, she was so jealous that she suspected my brother was having sex with other women while at work, and required him to answer videocalls at any time to check on him); when she ot angry, besides beating him, she broke stuff, including breaking his glasses four or five times, and destroying his university papers that my brother needs to graduate.
Now he's divorcing, but since the wife doesn't have a job (plan was that she should get one, but she managed to drop off before the end of the trial period every time) my brother still has to give her money, even if the judge acknowledge he's in the right.
He's gotten full of debts to marry her, and now he's getting more debts to divorce - me and my parents gave him tens of thousands of euros by now - and still he has to give half his salary to his wife. He won't anymore when the trial will be done, but that will take years.

And seeing durkon be all mellow and proposing a marriage to a murderous pshyco and humiliating himself and trying to blame himself for her faults reminded me too much of my brother.

So, I think I have at least as much right at being offended as the transsexual people who were offended by the breasted lizardfolk.

[greenfunkman]

I suspect from Rich's point of view, "This will cause pain to the D&D rules lawyers I haven't managed to shake off yet" is a feature, not a bug.

Haha yes I heartily agree!

[napoleon_in_rag]

I, for one, am glad Hilgya killed him. This fits much more with her character than if she said "Yes". Plus, it's funny.

This is equivalent to her slapping him since she is a really high level cleric. And I think he deserved a slap.

Everyone should stop assuming that Hilgya and Durkon are going to be a couple. She might not want him now and he doesn't seem to be willing to accept her as she is. He is already focusing on helping her overcome her "demons".

[zimmerwald1915]

humiliating himself
I don't think that means what you think it means. You seem to think it's the same thing as "apologizing for a wrong."

[Ruck]

Morally? Yeah, sure.

Examples of LN acts in Japan:

A paladin striking a child's head off because the child looked out a window at the wrong time.

Might even be LG (because the paladin was justified in killing the child's entire family).

The world is a very strange place, with very strange customs. Many of them unpleasant.

Besides what Peelee and Grey_Wolf have said... and the fact that the real world doesn't really conform to the Nine Alignments... Do they have paladins in Japan?

I want to ask more, but I think it goes into "is so-and-so morally justified," and in a real-world setting, not an in-comic one.