Chaotic Evil with 20 int, 20 wis, and 20 cha (but with 7 str, 7 dex, and 7 con)

[Zhentarim]

Imagine a chaotic evil person wiser than the wisest sage, more charismatic than the most charismatic orator, and more intelligent than the smartest brainiac. Imagine this chaotic evil person is also physically weak, so they have to rely on their mental abilities.

How would this be roleplayed?

I’m especially interested how this would be played different from the same stat array in a Neutral Evil Character or a Lawful Evil Character.

[gkathellar]

However you want.

Ability scores are a mark of how good you are at things, not determinants of how you will behave (except insofar as one is a function of the other). Alignment is a generalized description of a person's tendencies, not a set of protocols that you are going to follow. You need to supply the character with an actual personality beyond, "well, they's real smart, and they's real frail, and they's a real jerk."

[Zhentarim]

However you want.

Ability scores are a mark of how good you are at things, not determinants of how you will behave (except insofar as one is a function of the other). Alignment is a generalized description of a person's tendencies, not a set of protocols that you are going to follow. You need to supply the character with an actual personality beyond, "well, they's real smart, and they's real frail, and they's a real jerk."

I was trying to work out the personality as one that would survive from low level to high level successfully—perhaps one that is subtle and rational about being chaotic evil.

[Selion]

Imagine a chaotic evil person wiser than the wisest sage, more charismatic than the most charismatic orator, and more intelligent than the smartest brainiac. Imagine this chaotic evil person is also physically weak, so they have to rely on their mental abilities.

How would this be roleplayed?

I’m especially interested how this would be played different from the same stat array in a Neutral Evil Character or a Lawful Evil Character.

No one has ever questioned napoleon's or Julius Cesar's strength. You are a conqueror, my friend

[Buufreak]

No one has ever questioned napoleon's or Julius Cesar's strength. You are a conqueror, my friend

Nope. Just their sanity.

[Zhentarim]

No one has ever questioned napoleon's or Julius Cesar's strength. You are a conqueror, my friend

Cool.

I though Napoleon was Neutral Good, though?

[Erloas]

Cool.

I though Napoleon was Neutral Good, though?
The point, I believe, was that they were famous military leaders and conquerers and nothing is ever said about their physical prowess. Very few legendary leaders, good, bad, or other, get there by their personal strength of arms.

"Cult leader" sounds like a reasonable baseline idea behind a character like that.

[gkathellar]

I was trying to work out the personality as one that would survive from low level to high level successfully—perhaps one that is subtle and rational about being chaotic evil.

The same way any person survives from low-to-high level successfully. Chaotic evil doesn't mean you run around doing awful things at random. The Giant summed it up nicely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html), I think: it means your worldview is in rough proximity to, "screw you, I've got mine" (there's also the "I feel contempt for any and all restrictions, including the ones that involve not hurting whoever I want whenever I want," but honestly the two takes look pretty similar in practice). How exactly a given character navigates their environment with such a worldview is a function of their character, and their alignment is derived in turn from that.

[tomandtish]

Imagine a chaotic evil person wiser than the wisest sage, more charismatic than the most charismatic orator, and more intelligent than the smartest brainiac. Imagine this chaotic evil person is also physically weak, so they have to rely on their mental abilities.

How would this be roleplayed?

I’m especially interested how this would be played different from the same stat array in a Neutral Evil Character or a Lawful Evil Character.

Not necessarily CE, but Mr. Glass from Unbreakable is an example of someone who comes close to meeting those stats (actually his CON is worse than 7).

And as others have said, alignment follows from actions, not the other way around. Decide how you want your character to act, and the alignment will follow.

[SimonMoon6]

I'm thinking of classic villains and supervillains, back in the days when villains were meant to be weak and feeble, in contrast to the strong heroic types. There was never meant to be a physical fight involving the villains, merely a battle of wits. (These days are, of course, long gone.)

You can look at Lex Luthor vs Superman. Okay, Lex Luthor isn't physically handicapped, but he has no chance against Superman in a fight; heck, he should have trouble fighting an ordinary policeman. Of course, this is BEFORE he started wearing a high tech suit of armor. While not actually physically handicapped, he is shown to be "lesser" by being bald (not that I think bald people are "lesser" somehow, merely that the people who wrote these stories seemed to think so), even if he wasn't bald in his first appearance.

Or consider Doctor Sivana... or better yet, consider Mister Mind! Mister Mind is one of the arch-enemies of the original Captain Marvel (the guy who says "Shazam!" to transform, but whose name is most definitely NOT Shazam, since that's the name of the wizard dude who gave Billy Batson the power to become Captain Marvel... at least until DC's new 52 happened :( ...). Mister Mind is an incredibly evil supergenius. But he is also a worm... well, that's what they say, he looks more like a caterpillar. And he's a near-sighted worm (who needs glasses)... and his voice is so tiny, he needs a little radio around his neck to magnify his voice. But regardless, he is still one of Captain Marvel's greatest foes.

Or consider Davros. While the enemy of Davros is not quite in the leagues of Superman or Captain Marvel, Davros is still an infirm villain, fighting against a capable hero (the Doctor from "Doctor Who", a character whose name is most definitely NOT Doctor Who, but is instead just "The Doctor"). Davros can't walk, he only has the use of one arm/hand (until he even loses that in one episode), and he's blind, seeing only through the artificial eye in his forehead. He is no physical threat of any sort (until the 21st century series, where he can throw bolts of lightning). But he is still one of the Doctor's two greatest (individual) enemies.

Villains don't need to be physically powerful to be villainous.

[XionUnborn01]

Realistically you're not even that weak physically. The average person had a max heavy load of 100lbs but yours is 70 which isn't insanely far off.

Your Dex score being low means you're probably a klutz. You would likely bump into things regularly and have butterfingers.

Your constitution means that you're the person who has to call in sick a few times a month. Maybe you have a manageable disease.

Your physical prowess is probably a small, skinny, almost gangly or lanky kind of body. Honestly you probably have a similar body type to Waluigi except you're not tall and have a weak stomach and seem to have a perennial cold.

[Eszett]

There's not enough information to say "this is how this should be done". With these sorts of issues, I think back to comic #610. Belkar keeps listing game mechanics. He's a halfling ranger/barbarian who's chaotic evil. But that's not good enough for curse/hallucination Shojo, because it doesn't tell him anything about Belkar.

Fundamentally, a character is not a collection of game mechanics. If all you can say about a character is their alignment and ability points, then you're not saying enough to talk about them as a person. And if you're asking about what someone would be like, then you need to be able to talk about them as a person.

What motivates this person? Unless they're a demon and literally motivated to spread chaos and evil, there must be more to them.
Perhaps they're out to destroy the world because they feel slighted by it. Perhaps they want to live a life of luxury. Perhaps they're dedicated to a deity and act in accordance with that deity's plans.610

[Zhentarim]

There's not enough information to say "this is how this should be done". With these sorts of issues, I think back to comic #610. Belkar keeps listing game mechanics. He's a halfling ranger/barbarian who's chaotic evil. But that's not good enough for curse/hallucination Shojo, because it doesn't tell him anything about Belkar.

Fundamentally, a character is not a collection of game mechanics. If all you can say about a character is their alignment and ability points, then you're not saying enough to talk about them as a person. And if you're asking about what someone would be like, then you need to be able to talk about them as a person.

What motivates this person? Unless they're a demon and literally motivated to spread chaos and evil, there must be more to them.
Perhaps they're out to destroy the world because they feel slighted by it. Perhaps they want to live a life of luxury. Perhaps they're dedicated to a deity and act in accordance with that deity's plans.610

Good point. Lets go with the life of luxury interpretation, plus being a wizard. I feel like they should be a wizard.

[Ramza00]

Imagine a chaotic evil person wiser than the wisest sage, more charismatic than the most charismatic orator, and more intelligent than the smartest brainiac. Imagine this chaotic evil person is also physically weak, so they have to rely on their mental abilities.

How would this be roleplayed?

I’m especially interested how this would be played different from the same stat array in a Neutral Evil Character or a Lawful Evil Character.

A mixture of Envy from Fullmetal Alchemist with Solf J. Kimblee. A man who is both a slave to his desires but also feels free to engage his desires to the fullest in certain scenarios. A man who is able to use both proactive inhibition (foresight) and reactive inhibition to keep his desires in check when they are not advantageous but lets loose when he sees now downside. This character it is all about "place" for he is smart enough, wise enough, and charismatic enough to realize time and space are all relative and sometimes you can engage your deep desires and sometimes you must restrain them temporary till you get to a better place to feed those desires again.

[Particle_Man]

Good point. Lets go with the life of luxury interpretation, plus being a wizard. I feel like they should be a wizard.

I was thinking Illusionist (maybe Beguiler).

Have you ever seen the youtube videos (I believe that there are four of them) of Charlie the Unicorn? Charlie's two "friends" (the blue and pink unicorns that cause Charlie so much grief) just seemed to me to be perfect examples of CE illusionists/beguilers. I mean, they charm Charlie with a combination of illusions (including musical ones!) and smooth talking bull****, and then they do something horrible to Charlie. For no particular reason that I can see, except maybe "it's fun right now to do this!"

The other example would be some Joker character (Joker isn't very strong or healthy, although I think he is usually fairly dextrous so that is not a complete fit). Of course, "Joker character" is a fairly broad range. But he did do a musical number in "The Killing Joke".

In both cases, "robbery to fund a life of luxury" could fit, although it doesn't have to.

Also, such a character would be a *terrifyingly effective* politician. At least until they got bored.

[Eladrinblade]

Gonna chime in with the fact that old age raises mental stats, so somebody with a 20 isn't "better than the best". A 4th level commoner can have 22 in mental stats, if they're venerable. 21 at 1st level.

[hamishspence]

You could also take those 4 levels in Human Paragon (well, 3 in Human Paragon and 1 in something else):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon

and maybe the Prodigy template from DMG2.

Result - 4th level human, with no supernatural powers, with 23 in one mental stat, before ageing.

[Zhentarim]

You could also take those 4 levels in Human Paragon:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon

and maybe the Prodigy template from DMG2.

Result - 4th level human, with no supernatural powers, with 23 in one mental stat, before ageing.

That is impressive in its own right.

[hamishspence]

That is impressive in its own right.

Yup. You can be a prodigy of any one stat. 23 in a physical stat (Str) is what's needed to match the current world record overhead lift (nearly 600 lb).

So, in that sense, it's possible to create 3.5 characters using D&D mechanics who combine real-world achievements with real-world fragility (D&D characters with much more than 5 or 6 hit dice come across as unrealistically durable).

[Zhentarim]

Yup. You can be a prodigy of any one stat. 23 in a physical stat (Str) is what's needed to match the current world record overhead lift (nearly 600 lb).

So, in that sense, it's possible to create 3.5 characters using D&D mechanics who combine real-world achievements with real-world fragility (D&D characters with much more than 5 or 6 hit dice come across as unrealistically durable).

Hence why Gandolph was level 6 and Sauron was level 10

[denthor]

A mage who throws from long distance bring forth summon things to fight. Runs first ask questions only when the enemy is battered tied and unable to fight the uses implements that inflict the most pain. CE

NE some as above but is less precise about who is in the damage zone. Allies can be bought.

LE. Will honor his word if in writing and only if he wrote it signed it and the other party is willing. Then things like I will watch the battle means. I will not engage at all unless I want to.

[Yogibear41]

People joke about Napoleon being short, but he actually wasn't that was a misconception brought about by differing measuring systems. He was average height or maybe even a little bit taller than average for his day and age. Doesn't really help your question, but meh :smallamused: