Eberron: Elves & Dal Quor

[lunaticfringe]

Do elves enter Dal Quor when they Trance? I haven't really found anything definitive in my books(and I'm kinda lazy so I'm posting here).

Also was there something ever mentioned as inhabiting Dal Quor before the current version of Quori? Dal Quor is capable of being massively altered/reset which is why the evil Quori don't want it to change & kalashtar do.

[Falontani]

Read the history of kalashtar for more info on dal quor.
Rules as written, it never specifies. However it is the plane of dreams, so if elves dream during their trance then they should.

[Troacctid]

DM discretion. I remember in one of Keith Baker's Eberron novels, the drow party member stays behind and guards the sleeping bodies while everyone else dreams their way into Dal Quor—but the warforged party member is still able to get in via plot magic.

[The Viscount]

I don't know about explicit statements in the Eberron books, but there's definite precedent to say that elves wouldn't enter Dal Quor.
The nightmare spell specifies "Creatures who don’t sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell."

The elf entry in PHB has a bizarrely equivocating statement in the following: "While meditating, an elf dreams, though these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice."
But again even this tells us that elves don't dream in the traditional sense, so they wouldn't enter Dal Quor.

[Ruethgar]

Well, you can normally drop your immunity if you want. Also, elves are only immune to magical sleep and could still be put to slee by alchemy or presumably exhaustion(though no such mechanic exists). So even if they don’t enter proper dreams in trance they can still sleep.

[Sir_Chivalry]

As for what lived there before the current Quori, that would be the previous set of Quori, the ones who warred with the giants and possibly created the quorcraft war forged

[Powerdork]

When mortals dream, they psychically project their minds to Dal Quor, the plane where dreams play out. (Dal Quor, ECS p. 94)

Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. While meditating, an elf dreams, though these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. (Elves: physical description, PH p. 15)

Creatures who don’t sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or don’t dream cannot be contacted by this spell. (dream, PH p. 225)

Creatures who don't sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell. (nightmare, PH p. 257)

So, with all that in mind: Elves seem to let themselves "daydream" to rest. They're not truly dreaming, because their dreaming is described as "actually mental exercises". Which is what our actual real-life dreams usually are, but on a less conscious level (like elven dreams). So perhaps they're true dreams, and lucid dreams at that. Perhaps they've worked to grab back their ability to dream in a safe, measured manner.

We don't have dreams figured out in real life. Why would they be any better in fiction? Dreams are right up there with time travel in the top 5 "I don't envy content creators who have to make this seem right for their media". Andrew Hussie had a time, I'm sure.

[Troacctid]

You know, I like the idea that in-universe, there are magical researchers at Morgrave University doing studies right now to determine whether elves can access Dal Quor.

[Powerdork]

I tapped the Eberron Discord chat for answers and got a response from Keith Baker himself! Apologies for size, posting from my phone.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/364503096795332609/526481720875417621/image0.png

[Falontani]

How do I join that chat?

[Ruethgar]

Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. While meditating, an elf dreams, though these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. (Elves: physical description, PH p. 15)
So, let's say an elf gets hit with Sleeping Powder and fails their save, what happens to them? If trancing entirely replaces sleep, do they just start meditating suddenly and are unable to stop?

Edit: Also, which is the primary source, the Monster Manual, or the Player's Handbook? Because they say two different things regarding elven sleep immunity. And if the PHB is the primary source for high and half elves, does it override the "These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. " clause to lessen the immunity of Dark/Aquatic/Wild/Wood/Grey elves? Or do you use the information in their book to determine that?

[Powerdork]

How do I join that chat?

DM me for the link, it's bad to leave these things in the open.


So, let's say an elf gets hit with Sleeping Powder and fails their save, what happens to them? If trancing entirely replaces sleep, do they just start meditating suddenly and are unable to stop?

Edit: Also, which is the primary source, the Monster Manual, or the Player's Handbook? Because they say two different things regarding elven sleep immunity. And if the PHB is the primary source for high and half elves, does it override the "These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. " clause to lessen the immunity of Dark/Aquatic/Wild/Wood/Grey elves? Or do you use the information in their book to determine that?

An elf that gets hit with knockout powder is knocked out, the same way an elf reduced below 0 hit points (barring Diehard or similar effects) is unconscious. Sleeping implies unconscious, but unconscious does not automatically mean sleep, no matter what misnomer is applied to the source of it. Elves trancing may be helpless or unaware, but they're certainly not sleeping, and no effect known equivocates the two.
The primary source on "elves" without additional qualifiers like wood or wild is the Player's Handbook, as the errata documents call out, "The Player's Handbook ... gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source."
Because only high elves and half-elves are presented in the Player's Handbook of all sorts of elf, the information on those two elves in the Monster Manual is reminder text and little more. The Monster Manual is the book that tells you how to play the other elf types presented in it, and so is the primary source there.
Is there anything else?

[Ruethgar]

So would wood elves be immune to all sleep effects or only magic sleep since their primary source says all sleep, but they’re referencing high elves whose primary is PHB.

Sleepwood Pods, Alchemical Sleep Gas, Slumber Sand, Night Venom, all sleep magic and powers cast by an StP Erudite(assuming no transparency) can all hit a PHB high elf and cause sleep, not just unconsciousness. Because of the effects with dreamscapes and the like, that is a very big difference.