Variant: Grim-and-Gritty 5e (updated with new feats)

[Grod_The_Giant]

There was a popular variant of 3.5 edition known as "Epic 6th" or "E6," where character growth was virtually capped at 6th level. The goal was to control for imbalance and keep the game in a semi-realistic range. That's not as big a concern in 5e, between bounded accuracy and generally improved character balance, but there are still some areas where things get goofy-- ever-increasing HP pools, yo-yo healing, full healing after a night's sleep, and so on. So! Here's my take on how to hack 5e into a more grounded form.

Apprentice Characters
Optionally, a campaign can begin at level 0, before the characters have entirely finished their training. Zero-level characters must pick which class they are working towards; during their apprentice phase, they have all their normal proficiencies, but no class features except for Unarmored Defense. If they would normally learn cantrips at 1st level, they gain those as well. However, after casting five cantrips, they cannot cast any more until they have finished a short or long rest.

After gaining 150 experience points, they advance to level 1, gaining the remainder of their 1st level class features.

Veteran Characters
At 6th level, characters reach Veteran status. They no longer gain new levels; instead, for every 10,000xp they earn, they gain a new ability score increase.

As a special case, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues may replace their normal 6th level class features with those they normally get at 7th level.

New Feats
In addition to the usual options, as characters advance in power they gain access to special feats-- Paragon Feats, which require an ability score of 20, and Capstone Feats, which require 5 levels in the appropriate class.


Legendary Strength
Prerequisite: Strength 20
You gain the following benefits:

You have Advantage on Strength checks
You count as one size category larger when determining your carrying capacity and how large a foe you can grab or shove.
You gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks made to lift, push, break, or otherwise manhandle an object.

Special: You may only take one Paragon Feat

Legendary Dexterity
Prerequisite: Dexterity 20
You gain the following benefits:

You have Advantage on Dexterity checks
You may use your Dexterity score to determine how far you can jump, and for ability checks based on climbing or jumping.
You gain a climb speed equal to your land speed, and you may balance on objects as narrow as one inch without having to make a check. When determining if an object can support your weight, you are counted as only half as heavy as you actually are.

Special: You may only take one Paragon Feat

Legendary Constitution
Prerequisite: Constitution 20
You gain the following benefits:

You have Advantage on Constitution checks
When you would have a condition or level of exhaustion imposed on you, you may choose to ignore it until the end of your next turn. You can only ignore one effect at a time; if you choose to ignore a new one, the previous effect occurs immediately.

Special: You may only take one Paragon Feat

Legendary Intelligence
Prerequisite: Intelligence 20
You gain the following benefits:

You have Advantage on Intelligence checks
When making an ability check to which one could apply a proficiency bonus, you may add your Intelligence bonus to your roll. You may choose to do so after you have seen the result of your roll but before the DM announces the result. Once you have used this ability three times, you cannot do so again until you complete a long rest.

Special: You may only take one Paragon Feat

Legendary Wisdom
Prerequisite: Wisdom 20
You gain the following benefits:

You have Advantage on Wisdom checks
When making a saving throw, you may choose to make a Wisdom saving throw in place of the usual one. Once you have used this ability three times, you cannot do so again until you complete a long rest.

Special: You may only take one Paragon Feat

Legendary Charisma
Prerequisite: Charisma 20
You gain the following benefits:

You have Advantage on Charisma checks
As long as you are able to speak, you may use the Help action as a bonus action to aid an ally within 30ft who can hear you.

Special: You may only take one Paragon Feat



Advanced Barbarian
Prerequisite: Barbarian 5
You may use your Rage ability one additional time before taking a long rest, and your bonus damage increases by 1.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The benefits stack.

Advanced Bard
Prerequisite: Bard 5
You gain one additional use of your Bardic Inspiration ability. In addition, select one skill you are proficient in. You may add twice your Proficiency bonus to checks made using that skill.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The benefits stack.

Advanced Cleric
Prerequisite: Cleric 5
Select one of the following spells--Commune, Death Ward, Divination, Freedom of Movement, Greater Restoration, Hallow, or Locate Creature. You may cast your chosen spell as a ritual. Once you have done so, you may not do so again until you have completed a long rest.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times, choosing a new spell each time. You may still only cast one of your chosen spells as a ritual before completing a long rest

Advanced Druid
Prerequisite: Druid 5
Select one of the following spells: Awaken, Commune with Nature, Conjure Woodland Beings, Control Winds, Polymorph, Stone Shape, or Stoneskin. You may cast your chosen spell as a ritual. Once you have done so, you may not do so again until you have completed a long rest.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times, choosing a new spell each time. You may still only cast one of your chosen spells as a ritual before completing a long rest

Advanced Moon Druid
Prerequisite: Moon Druid 5
Select one Beast with a CR of 2 or lower. You may use your Wild Shape ability to transform into it, even if it has a fly speed.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, you may select a new Beast.

Advanced Fighter
Prerequisite: Fighter 5
You gain one additional Fighting Style. When you use your Second Wind ability, you recover an additional 3 hit points.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The benefits stack.

Advanced Monk
Prerequisite: Monk 5
You gain an additional point of Ki, and your martial arts damage die increases in size by one step-- from 1d6 to 1d8, 1d8 to 1d10, and so one.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The benefits stack. If your martial arts damage die is 1d12, each additional application of this feat instead grants +1 damage with unarmed strikes.

Advanced Paladin
Prerequisite: Paladin 5
You gain one additional Fighting Style and one additional first level spell slot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The benefits stack.

Advanced Ranger
Prerequisite: Ranger 5
You gain one additional Fighting Style and one additional first level spell slot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The benefits stack.

Advanced Rogue
Prerequisite: Rogue 5
You deal an additional 1d6 damage with your sneak attack. In addition, select one skill you are proficient in. You may add twice your Proficiency bonus to checks made using that skill.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The benefits stack.

Advanced Sorcerer
Prerequisite: Sorcerer 5
You gain one additional Sorcery Point and one additional metamagic option.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The benefits stack.

Advanced Warlock
Prerequisite: Warlock 5
You learn one additional invocation.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, learning a new invocation each time.

Advanced Wizard
Prerequisite: Wizard 5
Select one of the following spells: Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elemental, Dream, Fabricate, Hallucinatory Terrain, Leomund's Secret Chest, Modify Memory, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Polymorph, Scrying, or Stoneskin. You may cast your chosen spell as a ritual. Once you have done so, you may not do so again until you have completed a long rest.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times, choosing a new spell each time. You may still only cast one of your chosen spells as a ritual before completing a long rest

Also from previous feat projects...

Versatile Caster
Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell

Upon choosing this feat, you learn one cantrip from your class list (or the Cleric list in the case of Paladins, or the Druid list in the case of Rangers). If you prepare spells, you may prepare an additional two spells at once; if you have a list of spells known, you may immediately learn two additional spells of first level or higher from your class list, which do not count towards your total number of spells known.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, learning new spells and/or preparing more spells each time.


Resting and Injuries
Characters cannot expend hit dice during short rests, only during long. Long rests do not restore hit points at all unless hit dice are spent.

Whenever a character is reduced to zero hit points, they gain a level of Exhaustion, using the revised table:

-10ft speed, ranged weapon and spell ranges halved.
Disadvantage on Ability Checks
Disadvantage on attack rolls and saves; opponents have advantage on saves against your abilities
Hit point maximum halved
Immobilized
Death

Long rests restore one level of Exhaustion, as does the Lesser Restoration spell.

[Unoriginal]

Wouldn't that mean that those supposedly epic characters are going to keep being murdered by Giants, dragons, and other big damage dealers, and this no matter which point in their career they're at?

An increased number of ASIs doesn't make up for having a 6th level health or proficiency bonus, especially when it's still capped at 20.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wouldn't that mean that those supposedly epic characters are going to keep being murdered by Giants, dragons, and other big damage dealers, and this no matter which point in their career they're at?

An increased number of ASIs doesn't make up for having a 6th level health or proficiency bonus, especially when it's still capped at 20.
Well, yes. That's the point-- you never hit superhero power levels, and that big scary giant or dragon is always big and scary. 6th level represents the peak of human ability.

[VonKaiserstein]

Half starting health means you're going to see pit traps taking people out. Many, many basic weapons are capable of pumping out more than the 4 hp your wizard would have, or even the 8 hp fighter.

1st level remains more than lethal enough, unless you really want to run these guys through a grim and gritty training wheels dungeon I fear they will explode.

I do really like the hit dice shift to long rest. Simply not having that reset button available for health is going to make it much more difficult.

[Unoriginal]

Well, yes. That's the point-- you never hit superhero power levels, and that big scary giant or dragon is always big and scary. 6th level represents the peak of human ability.

Fair enough, if that's the playstyle you favor, but in that case you probably shouldn't call those characters "Epic".

[Aetis]

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Half starting health means you're going to see pit traps taking people out. Many, many basic weapons are capable of pumping out more than the 4 hp your wizard would have, or even the 8 hp fighter.

1st level remains more than lethal enough, unless you really want to run these guys through a grim and gritty training wheels dungeon I fear they will explode.

I do really like the hit dice shift to long rest. Simply not having that reset button available for health is going to make it much more difficult.
...you're right. I'm removing that bit now.


Fair enough, if that's the playstyle you favor, but in that case you probably shouldn't call those characters "Epic".
Yeah, fair point. How's "Veteran?"

[Knaight]

Wouldn't that mean that those supposedly epic characters are going to keep being murdered by Giants, dragons, and other big damage dealers, and this no matter which point in their career they're at?

That's the point. The epic blademaster of a more grounded series has no business being able to just nonchalantly take on a dragon or giant, and probably should get killed if they end up in anything but the most advantageous fight against them (probably because that's how they picked said fight), and the idea behind this hack is to get D&D to fit that a bit better.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, fair point. How's "Veteran?"

Sounds good, and is accurate.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's the point. The epic blademaster of a more grounded series has no business being able to just nonchalantly take on a dragon or giant, and probably should get killed if they end up in anything but the most advantageous fight against them (probably because that's how they picked said fight), and the idea behind this hack is to get D&D to fit that a bit better.
(I'm also working on a high-power variant that increases level-based scaling and adds skill unlocks. I... may have, like, two sourcebooks worth of homebrew either written or in the works :/ I... may have a problem.)

[Knaight]

(I'm also working on a high-power variant that increases level-based scaling and adds skill unlocks. I... may have, like, two sourcebooks worth of homebrew either written or in the works :/ I... may have a problem.)
Makes sense to me. After all there's also the uncovered territory where an epic blademaster cuts through dragons like grass, followed by the entire mountain behind them.

[mephnick]

Fair enough, if that's the playstyle you favor, but in that case you probably shouldn't call those characters "Epic".

It's referred to as Epic 6 because the threats you face at 6th level would still be Epic for most fantasy worlds. It's recalibrating expectations. Fighting off a Chimera in an Arthurian fantasy world would be a legendary feat. These characters are still "Epic".

[Knaight]

It's referred to as Epic 6 because the threats you face at 6th level would still be Epic for most fantasy worlds. It's recalibrating expectations. Fighting off a Chimera in an Arthurian fantasy world would be a legendary feat. These characters are still "Epic".

"Epic" is generally a vague term, not least because it initially applied to story structure more than anything else. Le Morte d'Arthur is pretty close to an epic cycle, and the Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic. Both are pretty ridiculously high powered, but the extent between them varies pretty massively.

[strangebloke]

It's referred to as Epic 6 because the threats you face at 6th level would still be Epic for most fantasy worlds. It's recalibrating expectations. Fighting off a Chimera in an Arthurian fantasy world would be a legendary feat. These characters are still "Epic".


"Epic" is generally a vague term, not least because it initially applied to story structure more than anything else. Le Morte d'Arthur is pretty close to an epic cycle, and the Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic. Both are pretty ridiculously high powered, but the extent between them varies pretty massively.

As I'm sure you're both aware the term 'epic' here references the 'epic' level of 3.5, where past the level cap you could still gain abilities and face more powerful foes, but the nature of progression changed greatly. Hence 'epic 6' because every 'level' after six used the epic system instead of the regular one.

In 5e there is no 'epic' system, so perhaps Veteran is a better term.

Either way, I think that this gameplay would really be unfun with the current set of ASIs and feats. You'd get to Veteran level 5 or something and then everyone would have resilient, GWM, PAM, X-armor master, and/or magic initiate and it'd reduce character differentiation.

Essentially, its that bane of fun RPG design, the 'steadily reducing choices' problem where you picked everything you really wanted at level 4 and now at Veteran 6, you guess you can pick up tough or something.

So ultimately if you wanted to implement this, you'd need new options that open up at higher Veteran levels. Veteran feats, feats with prerequisites, etc. etc. Still, its a fun idea.

I would also use the gritty rest variant with this. Because I always do.

[Drakkoniss]

Well, Strangebloke, a partial solution to that particular issue (lack of character differentiation) would be to not allow feats in this version of the game. Yes, you'd get less customization options, but that would fit well with the theme of "forcing characters to be very careful and really plot out their fights" which this mode of gameplay seems to be supporting.

All in all, I think that the idea of reducing the level cap like this is an excellent way to get the feeling of "low fantasy" (or really, high realism) that simply isn't going to come from reducing the amount of magic items that come into play.

While it won't be everyone's cup of tea, the capacity for anything to do damage to even high level characters (assuming the character wasn't a ridiculous munchkin) is one of 5e's greatest strengths already. It's very nice to see an idea to emphasize and really bring out that particular line of thinking to its logical extent. I will certainly be curious as to whether Bounded Accuracy makes this particularly frustrating, long-term, but at the same time, I think that player and DM skill could minimize the potential problems.

[strangebloke]

Well, Strangebloke, a partial solution to that particular issue (lack of character differentiation) would be to not allow feats in this version of the game. Yes, you'd get less customization options, but that would fit well with the theme of "forcing characters to be very careful and really plot out their fights" which this mode of gameplay seems to be supporting.

All in all, I think that the idea of reducing the level cap like this is an excellent way to get the feeling of "low fantasy" (or really, high realism) that simply isn't going to come from reducing the amount of magic items that come into play.

While it won't be everyone's cup of tea, the capacity for anything to do damage to even high level characters (assuming the character wasn't a ridiculous munchkin) is one of 5e's greatest strengths already. It's very nice to see an idea to emphasize and really bring out that particular line of thinking to its logical extent. I will certainly be curious as to whether Bounded Accuracy makes this particularly frustrating, long-term, but at the same time, I think that player and DM skill could minimize the potential problems.

Well, then you just end up with a veteran 6 character who has three 18s, one 20, and two stats he really doesn't care about.

People played e6 because it was a way to sort of avoid ridiculous feature bloat, where you could do a million things but on a few well, and normal things couldn't challenge you at all. But it also worked because it let people continue to gain useful and cool abilities. You could create custom 'epic' 4th level spells, create all-new feat chains, etc. Getting to level 6 wouldn't be then end of the campaign, it'd be when the thing really started hitting its stride.

E6 existed alongside and partially because of the epic ruleset. With no epic ruleset, its really not fun to just say "Don't gain any more features after level 6."

If that's what you're doing, the game is basically over after level six. Everything past that is just accumulation of magic bling. This isn't to say that the game is all about progression, but it is a major theme of the game.

[Laserlight]

Well, Strangebloke, a partial solution to that particular issue (lack of character differentiation) would be to not allow feats in this version of the game. Yes, you'd get less customization options.

A solution to "lack of character differentiation" is to REDUCE customization options? Did you actually mean to say that?

[Luccan]

I don't think overlapping feats would actually be that big an issue. Or at least no more of one than it would be in normal games (a Str Fighter and a Barbarian in normal play are both just as likely to take GWM as in this version of the rules). The main difference I see is this system could give you significantly more ASIs, thus prompting a faster arrival at "all our Str warriors have the same feats" but again if it was going to be a problem, it was going to be a problem.

Also, slight typo gives the impression you can only get one stat to 20, not that individual stats can never be raised to over 20.

All in all, this seems like it will be a fine addition of optional rules.

[Drakkoniss]

Indeed I did, Laserlight. My rationality was this: if one does not allow feats in such a scenario, it not only makes things a little dicier (in that one does not get access to, say, features that increase one's HP, reduce damage, or whathaveyou), but then one is forced to focus more on refining one's strategic thinking and playstyle, for the pressure would be higher for the player.

After reading Strangebloke's reply, I certainly do agree, though: that's not quite the option to go with. If one retains the ability score increases at the rate that was described (instead of denying them, or spreading them out, perhaps), then one is likely going to see a whole lot of optimization in the key abilities of the character. Furthermore, I agree: one would have to figure out some better way to introduce progress into the campaign, generally-- additional feats, some system of weapon or armor progression, possibly the accruing of secondary characters (followers in the same vein of original D&D's system) in the roster, or whathaveyou. This ought perhaps be the focus of the development of this system.

Mind you, I could see the feat ban working if other factors were involved: a more staggered system of ASI's, combined with, say, small bonuses to HP, but this would just be drawing the problem out over a greater length of time. I'm not certain that it would actually solve anything (and may in fact go against the intended flavor of the game, in that particular case).

[Kadesh]

Isn't grim and gritty 5e basically code for 'I don't like 5E, I want to play a different game'.

Because there are other and better tabletop games that are intentionally functional around grim, gritty and survival gameplay.

5E isn't.

[Ignimortis]

(I'm also working on a high-power variant that increases level-based scaling and adds skill unlocks. I... may have, like, two sourcebooks worth of homebrew either written or in the works :/ I... may have a problem.)

Well, your stuff is usually well-written and well-considered. So those houserules might turn out to be very good and maybe more people would screw them onto their 5e games.


Makes sense to me. After all there's also the uncovered territory where an epic blademaster cuts through dragons like grass, followed by the entire mountain behind them.

A darn shame, that.


Isn't grim and gritty 5e basically code for 'I don't like 5E, I want to play a different game'.

Because there are other and better tabletop games that are intentionally functional around grim, gritty and survival gameplay.

5E isn't.

Eh, the rules are basically E6 for 5e instead of 3.5e. And seeing as 5e is already E6 stretched out for 20 levels and the only thing that doesn't feel like E6 is high-level spells, then I'd say that Grod succeeded in writing a very short, very easy fix that would probably be a good variant rule in the DMG anyway, because it does better what 5e does best and doesn't do at all what 5e does terribly.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Either way, I think that this gameplay would really be unfun with the current set of ASIs and feats. You'd get to Veteran level 5 or something and then everyone would have resilient, GWM, PAM, X-armor master, and/or magic initiate and it'd reduce character differentiation.
That's definitely a concern--especially in games without feats. Do you have any suggestions about alternate means of post-level-cap advancement? Bringing back capstone feats as someone suggested isn't a bad idea, perhaps, but...


I would also use the gritty rest variant with this. Because I always do.
You could, but it might actually be more disruptive here. The recovery rules were meant to force a slowdown already-- it'll probably take a couple of days to recover from a rough fight. (Then again, I guess "it takes weeks to heal up from nearly dying" is certainly realism)


Also, slight typo gives the impression you can only get one stat to 20, not that individual stats can never be raised to over 20.
That actually wasn't a typo-- I was thinking that it would help differentiate characters. "Sure, I'm strong and tough, but my wisdom is a thing of legend," type of thing.


Isn't grim and gritty 5e basically code for 'I don't like 5E, I want to play a different game'.

Because there are other and better tabletop games that are intentionally functional around grim, gritty and survival gameplay.

5E isn't.
5e is much more widespread than any of those. I, personally, am I proponent of "pick the system that fits best," but that's because I'm a huge rules nerd and pick things up fast. On the other hand, I've got friends who've played multiple 5e campaigns and still need help with their attack rolls every round. There's a virtue of having a soft option.

Plus, hacking rulesets is fun.


Well, your stuff is usually well-written and well-considered. So those houserules might turn out to be very good and maybe more people would screw them onto their 5e games.
Aww, shucks :smallredface:

[Azgeroth]

rather than starting at level 0, why not just start them with absolutely NOTHING, no armour, no weapons, no tools, no casting focus, no spell book, no nothing.. save for a loincloth.

i agree with the HP/rest rule, i would also add you can't regain HD on a long rest if you spend any HD on that rest.

not sure about capp'ing characters to level 6 though... that basically means no spells above 3rd, EKs and ATs no higher than 1st.. maybe stop gaining HP, but those high level class features are what make them epic..

i just feel that sayying nope you stop at level 6, pick a feat/asi every level instead, is the same as sayying congrats your level 20 have some ribbons instead, but your not level 20.. at most your just entering mid T2, raise that 6 to 9 and i would be alot happier.. but i feel like your robbing players of too much by stopping at 6 / 20.

just my 2p though :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

The reason for stopping at 6th IS so that you're capped at Tier 2, where the widest range of iconic enemies are still usable. 6th specifically makes an excellent stopping point--almost every class gets their second subclass feature as a capstone, or you can splash in a level of another class and still hit 3rd level spells or extra attack.

[strangebloke]

That's definitely a concern--especially in games without feats. Do you have any suggestions about alternate means of post-level-cap advancement? Bringing back capstone feats as someone suggested isn't a bad idea, perhaps, but...

Well, I mean, its hard, because you don't want to break bounded accuracy but you also don't want to force every character to be super wide and diverse in their skill set.

So anyway, I think the answer here would be "veteran feats" Which unlike other feats have prereqs. Perhaps you can only take one every three veteran levels as well or something similar.

So, uh:
Lightning Reflexes
Requires level 9 and 16 DEX
Your vast experience allows you to strike more quickly than anyone expects. Once per round, you can make an opportunity attack without using a reaction.

Combat Patrol
Requires level 9
When you are wielding a one-handed or light weapon, as a bonus action on your turn you can designate a region to patrol. This region extends ten feet from your person. If a person attempts to leave this space you can, as a reaction, move to them and hit them with an opportunity attack.

Combat Insight
Requires level 9, WIS 16
Every creature has a vulnerability. As an action, you can study a creature, parsing out its weaknesses. If you do so, until the start of your next turn all attacks you make against that creature have advantage, and all attacks it makes against you have disadvantage.

Legendary Commander
Requires level 12, CHA 16
Once per short rest, you can rally your troops. As an action, you can inspire a number of creatures equal to twice your level who you can see and who can understand you. Creatures inspired in this way can use your proficiencies instead of their own until the end of your next turn.


So stuff like that, that's really thematic and can be built to, but gives players something to look forward to at higher levels.


You could, but it might actually be more disruptive here. The recovery rules were meant to force a slowdown already-- it'll probably take a couple of days to recover from a rough fight. (Then again, I guess "it takes weeks to heal up from nearly dying" is certainly realism)


Well, I would probably just ignore your bit about resting and use my own rules, since having multiple conflict rest rule 'fixes' is pretty disruptive, as you say.

Short rests are eight hours, long rests are a week of downtime.

[JNAProductions]

First off, excellent work as usual, Grod.

Second off, I'd perhaps consider allowing all stats to hit 20, but ONE stat to hit 22. A Mountain Dwarf Fighter, for instance, can hit a 20 in Strength and 18 in Constitution by level 6 normally (by starting in 17 with both) so they'd be starting on tertiary stats with their first capped ASI. Plus it allows for just a TOUCH of Superhuman, since 20 is considered the regular max. Doesn't even have worries about DCs getting too high-max a save can be (before magic items) is 17 with a stat at 22.

Third off, I'd definitely consider adding more feats, to give you more options of what to do.

Some examples...

Expert
Requires 39,000 XP minimum
Increase your proficency bonus to +4.

Really Damn Tough
Requires the Tough feat, Con 16+, and level 6
Increase your maximum HP by 6. In addition, the first time you drop to zero hit points per [SHORT/LONG?] rest, you do not gain a level of exhaustion.

Master of Arcana/the Divine
Requires casting stat 18+, the ability to cast third level arcane/divine spells, and level 6
You gain a single fourth level spell slot, and a single fourth level spell known from your class's list.

Fightmaster
Requires Str or Dex 18+, Extra Attack, and level 6
Once per [SHORT/LONG?] rest, you may enter a state of intense battle focus without taking an action. For the next minute, whenever you take the Attack action, you may make three attacks instead of two.

Fourth... Shouldn't this be in the homebrew forum?

[Ignimortis]

Well, I mean, its hard, because you don't want to break bounded accuracy but you also don't want to force every character to be super wide and diverse in their skill set.

So anyway, I think the answer here would be "veteran feats" Which unlike other feats have prereqs. Perhaps you can only take one every three veteran levels as well or something similar.

So, uh:
Lightning Reflexes
Requires level 9 and 16 DEX
Your vast experience allows you to strike more quickly than anyone expects. Once per round, you can make an opportunity attack without using a reaction.

Combat Patrol
Requires level 9
When you are wielding a one-handed or light weapon, as a bonus action on your turn you can designate a region to patrol. This region extends ten feet from your person. If a person attempts to leave this space you can, as a reaction, move to them and hit them with an opportunity attack.

Combat Insight
Requires level 9, WIS 16
Every creature has a vulnerability. As an action, you can study a creature, parsing out its weaknesses. If you do so, until the start of your next turn all attacks you make against that creature have advantage, and all attacks it makes against you have disadvantage.

Legendary Commander
Requires level 12, CHA 16
Once per short rest, you can rally your troops. As an action, you can inspire a number of creatures equal to twice your level who you can see and who can understand you. Creatures inspired in this way can use your proficiencies instead of their own until the end of your next turn.


So stuff like that, that's really thematic and can be built to, but gives players something to look forward to at higher levels.



First off, excellent work as usual, Grod.

Second off, I'd perhaps consider allowing all stats to hit 20, but ONE stat to hit 22. A Mountain Dwarf Fighter, for instance, can hit a 20 in Strength and 18 in Constitution by level 6 normally (by starting in 17 with both) so they'd be starting on tertiary stats with their first capped ASI. Plus it allows for just a TOUCH of Superhuman, since 20 is considered the regular max. Doesn't even have worries about DCs getting too high-max a save can be (before magic items) is 17 with a stat at 22.

Third off, I'd definitely consider adding more feats, to give you more options of what to do.

Some examples...

Expert
Requires 39,000 XP minimum
Increase your proficency bonus to +4.

Really Damn Tough
Requires the Tough feat, Con 16+, and level 6
Increase your maximum HP by 6. In addition, the first time you drop to zero hit points per [SHORT/LONG?] rest, you do not gain a level of exhaustion.

Master of Arcana/the Divine
Requires casting stat 18+, the ability to cast third level arcane/divine spells, and level 6
You gain a single fourth level spell slot, and a single fourth level spell known from your class's list.

Fightmaster
Requires Str or Dex 18+, Extra Attack, and level 6
Once per [SHORT/LONG?] rest, you may enter a state of intense battle focus without taking an action. For the next minute, whenever you take the Attack action, you may make three attacks instead of two.

Fourth... Shouldn't this be in the homebrew forum?

All of these are pretty good, I'd say. Gives you a bit more numbers and options while preserving the low-level feel due to HP staying low.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So anyway, I think the answer here would be "veteran feats" Which unlike other feats have prereqs. Perhaps you can only take one every three veteran levels as well or something similar.
Mmm... I think I'm looking at potentially 3 categories of Veteran feats:

Capstone feats that provide a partial level-up. Casters might get a single level 4 spell known/spell slot; the Paladin, their level 7 subclass aura, stuff like that.
Paragon feats, requiring a score of 20 in a given ability score. Maybe more focused on noncombat stuff?
Extension feats, granting more spell slots, more hit die (but not hit points), more uses of stuff like ki and rage, etc.

[Potato_Priest]

Veteran Characters
At 6th level, characters reach Veteran status. They no longer gain new levels; instead, for every 5000xp they earn, they gain a new ability score increase. No matter how many ability score increases a character gains, they can only increase one ability score to 20.

As a special case, Fighters, Rangers, and Rogues replace their normal 6th level class features with those they normally get at 7th level.


If I may suggest changing the wording of this, as it currently reads, a veteran character may only improve one ability score to 20, and all the others are presumably capped at 19 (what happens if the character already has multiple 20's from rolled stats, racial bonuses, and the level 4 ASI I haven't a clue). I think you want it to say "as normal, a character may not use an ability score improvement to increase an ability score above 20".


Whenever a character is reduced to zero hit points, they gain a level of Exhaustion, using the revised table:

-10ft speed, weapon and spell ranges halved.



I would suggest making that be "ranged weapon and spell ranges halved". As it stands now, you could get the reach of your longsword reduced to 2.5 feet (actually probably shorter than the sword itself), and since you always round down in 5e, good luck playing on a grid...

[JNAProductions]

If I may suggest changing the wording of this, as it currently reads, a veteran character may only improve one ability score to 20, and all the others are presumably capped at 19 (what happens if the character already has multiple 20's I haven't a clue). I think you want it to say "as normal, a character may not use an ability score improvement to increase an ability score above 20".

That's actually Grod's intent. I disagree with it, but that's what he wants-only ONE stat at 20.

[Potato_Priest]

That's actually Grod's intent. I disagree with it, but that's what he wants-only ONE stat at 20.

Do you happen to know what happens if you already have two twenties by the time you get to level 6? It's definitely possible at level 4, and a mountain dwarf with luckily rolled stats can have it even at level 1.

[JNAProductions]

Do you happen to know what happens if you already have two twenties by the time you get to level 6? It's definitely possible at level 4, and a mountain dwarf with luckily rolled stats can have it even at level 1.

Your character explodes in a shower of gore. :P

I'd assume this is meant to be used with point buy or arrays, making that not possible. Also, note his note on Rogues and Fighters.

Question, Grod: Why do Rogues not get Expertise at 6th level? I'd want that over Evasion. Did you think they got an ASI there, like Fighters? Or is that intended?

[Baptor]

I do something like this.

In my game, the stopping point is 10th level for a variety of reasons. There's a consequence in allowing that high of a level but it's something I can live with.

I do the same thing you do, in that a "level up" after 10 is an ASI or Feat.

Magic items are typically rare or less, though I've broken this rule once or twice.

I scale down the high CR stuff, the lesser Balor in Matt Colville's Strongholds and Followers is a good example of what I do.

This level cap is a rule that we all agreed on (DM and players) because high level shenanigans is something none of us wants to deal with.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd assume this is meant to be used with point buy or arrays, making that not possible. Also, note his note on Rogues and Fighters.

Question, Grod: Why do Rogues not get Expertise at 6th level? I'd want that over Evasion. Did you think they got an ASI there, like Fighters? Or is that intended?
I... did not take rolled stats into consideration, no. Regardless, the rule should apply at every level. The idea was partially to compensate for the eventual pile of ASIs, and mostly as a thematic reinforcing factor. You get to be (near) superhumanly good at one thing, not all the things.

To answer your question, I just thought Evasion was a more interesting capstone than a second iteration of Expertise. It's new and unique, at least.

[JNAProductions]

I... did not take rolled stats into consideration, no. Regardless, the rule should apply at every level. The idea was partially to compensate for the eventual pile of ASIs, and mostly as a thematic reinforcing factor. You get to be (near) superhumanly good at one thing, not all the things.

To answer your question, I just thought Evasion was a more interesting capstone than a second iteration of Expertise. It's new and unique, at least.

Allow the OPTION, I think.

I would VASTLY prefer Expertise to Evasion, for one.

[Rusvul]

I always liked epic 6 back in 3.5, and porting it into 5e is a cool idea. I don't think 6 is the right level to cap at in 5e, though.

In 3.5, 6 was the ideal level to cap at for several reasons:
- By 6th level, most characters have either 3rd level spells or high enough BAB to get two attacks
- Sorcerers were a level behind other full casters, so they didn't get 3rd level spells until 6th level.
- Prestige classes were important, and you usually couldn't get them until your 6th level. E6 let you take five levels of your base class, then the first level of a prestige class to further differentiate your character.

Only the first applies in 5e. I think a better "cap" level would be 5 (everyone just got their cool thing, no need to wait for Sorcerers like in 3.5) or 7 (room for everyone to get their cool thing and multiclass a little or get their classes' higher-level abilities). 4th levels spells aren't as significant in 5e as in 3.5, so I think Epic (or Veteran) 7 would work just about as well as far as the "not superheroes" thing goes.

I also want to echo the sentiment that unique "veteran feats" are a good idea. Unlike 3.5, there aren't enough normal feats to make "you get more feats!" a meaningful form of progression (at least not without adding to the list).

[Trampaige]

When I was writing out something like this a long time ago, I used lesser, regular, and greater traits which you got as you leveled up. A lesser trait was something like +1 stat. A regular trait was something like an extra spell known, or more spell points, or a feat. A greater trait would be +1 proficiency bonus, or a 4th level spell once a day, or an improvement or access to a higher level class or archetype feature.

There were general traits, that everyone could access (an extra HD) and class specific ones (+1 rage damage.) You could take general traits regardless, but lesser class traits required lvl1, regular lvl3, and greater lvl5 in a class.

Some traits were one time only, others could be taken a number of times. I also cross dipped some archetype features, so that any fighter could choose to learn a maneuver, or take improved critical.

Obviously you could take regular feats instead of traits at certain levels.

Characters would continue to gain power steadily and grow over time, but be able to do it in a customized way. Multiclass characters would have very hard decisions with great versatility, while pure class would have access to more powerful features but have to weigh them against other valid options.

[Luccan]

So, if only a single stat can get to 20, what's the effective cap for other stats? 19 seems like an odd (badum tss) stopping point, but it's also the only logical one (given there'd be no real cap until one of your stats reached 20 anyway)

[Potato_Priest]

I would suggest making that be "ranged weapon and spell ranges halved". As it stands now, you could get the reach of your longsword reduced to 2.5 feet (actually probably shorter than the sword itself), and since you always round down in 5e, good luck playing on a grid...

Just thought I’d draw attention to this again, since it might have gotten buried in the stat cap discussion.

[strangebloke]

Mmm... I think I'm looking at potentially 3 categories of Veteran feats:

Capstone feats that provide a partial level-up. Casters might get a single level 4 spell known/spell slot; the Paladin, their level 7 subclass aura, stuff like that.
Paragon feats, requiring a score of 20 in a given ability score. Maybe more focused on noncombat stuff?
Extension feats, granting more spell slots, more hit die (but not hit points), more uses of stuff like ki and rage, etc.


I think all of these sound grand, and they probably take less work than what I slapped together. The Paragon feats are especially nice, since that sort of precludes wizards etc. for going for the DEX paragon feats.


Allow the OPTION, I think.

I would VASTLY prefer Expertise to Evasion, for one.

Just saying if you remove the race restriction from Prodigy, everyone can get expertise.

[olskool]

I just came back to D&D after a more than two-decade hiatus. I have been asked by our DM (with 6 sessions under his belt) for my advice (I've been gaming for 42 years). I see the potential for "power creep" in D&D5e at higher levels. One of the issues is the granting of unconditional Characteristic Score Increases. Since these give mechanical bonuses to a wide range of tasks during play, their abuse can have wide-ranging impacts. I came up with the following alternative "house rule" to help combat "godlike Characteristic scores."

Characteristic Score Improvement:

In lieu of the current AUTOMATIC 2-point Characteristic increase at various Class Levels, the players will gain a CHANCE at increasing ONE CHARACTERISTIC by a SINGLE point for each Level that they gain. At each new Level, the player selects a Characteristic to try and increase. To increase that Characteristic, the player must roll OVER the current Characteristic Score on a 1D20. If a score has a Species Maximum that exceeds 20, the Player will subtract 20 from the Score's Racial Maximum to determine the number of points which they may subtract from the Character's Score before rolling 1D20. For example, a Character with a racial maximum of 22 in DEX would subtract 2 from his DEX Score before rolling the 1D20 to see if his DEX increases.

[olskool]

Another area where you can "adjust" the "power creep" of D&D5e at higher Levels is to adjust the Proficiency Bonus System to generate lower Modifiers at higher Levels. This, in combination with my new "house rule" on Characteristics shown in the post above, can limit power at higher Levels without impacting power at lower Levels too much. Here is my Proficiency Modifiers By Level Suggestion...

Level 0 = 0/No Bonus
Level 1 to Level 2 = +1
Level 3 to Level 5 = +2
Level 6 to Level 9 = +3
Level 10 to Level 14 = +4
Level 15 to Level 20 = +5

I would also argue that when the Character gains a new Proficiency or a FEAT, that the newly acquired power actually starts at LEVEL ONE. Thus, acquiring a FEAT at 4th Level would mean that the use of that FEAT/Proficiency would be done with a 1st Level Proficiency Bonus. This FEAT/Proficiency's Level would then rise with each additional Level the Character gains after the FEAT's/Proficiency's acquisition. This would require more "bookkeeping," but would help combat "power creep."

[Grod_The_Giant]

Updated with Paragon feats! Capstone feats are just about done; I'm thinking they'll be somewhat dull upgrades to class abilities that can be taken multiple times. (Say, a Barbarian capstone that grants an additional rage/rest and +1 rage damage).

Update: Capstone feats now up in a crude form; proper formatting will have to wait.


So, if only a single stat can get to 20, what's the effective cap for other stats? 19 seems like an odd (badum tss) stopping point, but it's also the only logical one (given there'd be no real cap until one of your stats reached 20 anyway)
In retrospect, that wasn't necessary, I don't think. The limit is gone.


Just thought I’d draw attention to this again, since it might have gotten buried in the stat cap discussion.
Whoops-- fixed.

[noob]

In 3.5 e6 you could take epic toughness if you really cared about hit points and there was many things that could be done to keep improving indefinitely.
So that thing is quite distinct since there is a moment where your character will have all the feats it could take and all the stats at 20 and only be able to take their capstone over and over.
So for example the barbarian would end up being able to kill 3 maximally old dragons in one round but would die if it does not beats all the initiatives of the dragons which is a kind of weird asymptotic result.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, vanilla 5e has a progression cap too--once you hit level 20 there's no way to advance without gear or fiat. There are plenty of uses for ASIs; "what happens if you run this variant for 50 years" isn't really a concern."

[noob]

I mean, vanilla 5e has a progression cap too--once you hit level 20 there's no way to advance without gear or fiat. There are plenty of uses for ASIs; "what happens if you run this variant for 50 years" isn't really a concern."

I was comparing two kinds of E6 and not E6 to the base game.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was comparing two kinds of E6 and not E6 to the base game.
That doesn't strike me as a particularly useful comparison? It's not quite apples and oranges, but it's two different hacks of two quite different systems.

That said, you do have a point about speed of advancement. 10,000 xp/ASI would probably be better; that's about what you need to go from 6th-7th, meaning a reasonable number of level 6 encounters.

[Tvtyrant]

My solution to making it gritty was to use the exhaustion chart as well, but I renamed it "wounds" and had the character also gain one when struck by a critical hit.

Enemies don't take wounds for obvious reasons, instead they take a morale check on a crit, when an ally runs or when an ally drops below 0 HP.

So a party fighting a large group will break it in short order but are likely to pile up wounds in the exchange, and while HP goes up wounds don't.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My solution to making it gritty was to use the exhaustion chart as well, but I renamed it "wounds" and had the character also gain one when struck by a critical hit.

Enemies don't take wounds for obvious reasons, instead they take a morale check on a crit, when an ally runs or when an ally drops below 0 HP.

So a party fighting a large group will break it in short order but are likely to pile up wounds in the exchange, and while HP goes up wounds don't.
Morale rules are good in general, yeah.

All feats now posted with proper formatting. What do ya'll think?