Grapple build for a rogue

[Druzel]

Hello everyone. I am a 3.5 player in a pathfinder game. Im wanting to build a rogue into assassin, that focuses on stealth and grappling.

I have a few questions, such as can i apply sneak attack damage to a grappled target, and the best feats to take with the build. I would prefer not to subclass out, id like to keep rogue and assassin. And im not to interested in gear, i just need the feat set up you would recommend

The idea is to assassinate one target, and then grapple another using small weapons to kill him while im tangled up. The build is also designed to peel targets off of my squishyer party members

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, if you're dead set on going this route, you're in for some trouble:

1- Rogues have 3/4 BAB, which means your Grapple modifier is going to be lacking;
2- Grapple is keyed off Str, which is usually a dump stat for Rogues, since your damage doesn't rely on it, and neither do your skills;
3- Grapple gets BIG bonuses and penalties depending on your size, and Rogues usually want to be Small or Medium sized, so you're - at best - letting go of some really nice bonuses. At worst you're tanking a -4 to your modifier;
4- Rogues requires a lot of feats. Grapple builds also require lots of feats. Between feats for both builds you'll be lucky to afford them all before level 12;
5- By level 12, you'll be fighting a lot of enemies that are either too large to Grapple (remember, you can only grapple foes 1 size category bigger) or foes with Freedom of Movement, which is a big middle finger to grapplers;
6- Grappling with an enemy pretty much screws you out of most Sneak Attack triggers. You can't flank, you can't hide, you can Feint, but feinting is very subpar.

If someone has any suggestion on how to fix #6, the build might work, but you'll still be much worse off than just stabbing them to death

[Khedrac]

Also, if you grapple someone then everyone else in your party can do sneak attack (if they can do sneak attack) because the grappled opponent is denied Dex bonus to AC against them; you cannot because they still get their Dex bons against you.

[Druzel]

Honestly, if you're dead set on going this route, you're in for some trouble:

1- Rogues have 3/4 BAB, which means your Grapple modifier is going to be lacking;
2- Grapple is keyed off Str, which is usually a dump stat for Rogues, since your damage doesn't rely on it, and neither do your skills;
3- Grapple gets BIG bonuses and penalties depending on your size, and Rogues usually want to be Small or Medium sized, so you're - at best - letting go of some really nice bonuses. At worst you're tanking a -4 to your modifier;
4- Rogues requires a lot of feats. Grapple builds also require lots of feats. Between feats for both builds you'll be lucky to afford them all before level 12;
5- By level 12, you'll be fighting a lot of enemies that are either too large to Grapple (remember, you can only grapple foes 1 size category bigger) or foes with Freedom of Movement, which is a big middle finger to grapplers;
6- Grappling with an enemy pretty much screws you out of most Sneak Attack triggers. You can't flank, you can't hide, you can Feint, but feinting is very subpar.

If someone has any suggestion on how to fix #6, the build might work, but you'll still be much worse off than just stabbing them to death

I understand the build im asking for is subpar, im new to pathfinder so i can only pull from 3.5.

But pinning an enemy causes them to be flatfooted, and i believe there was a feat in 3.5 that alows you to use your dex instead of str for grapple checks, i would plave grapple feats before rogue feats, with no intention of two weapon fighting, the assassin class takes next to nothing to get into, but also stacking into posions, after the first grapple, the first attack i could apply str posions on to help maintain the grapple, and into pin for the sneak attack damage

Essentially im imaginging a rogue that dosnt just fight fron stealth, but almost like a dirty fighter

[heavyfuel]

I understand the build im asking for is subpar, im new to pathfinder so i can only pull from 3.5.

Wait, is this character for PF or for 3.5? Or 3.PF?

Because advice will vary depending on the system

[Thurbane]

The Escape Attack skill trick (CS p.86) allows a swift action attack when escaping a grapple, and treats the opponent as flat footed.


This is pathfinder only

Never mind then.

[Druzel]

Wait, is this character for PF or for 3.5? Or 3.PF?

Because advice will vary depending on the system

This is pathfinder only

[Druzel]

After a bit of research im also open to the idea of a straight rogue, some of the rogue talents look promising

[heavyfuel]

This is pathfinder only

I'm not too familiar with PF but...


Essentially im imaginging a rogue that dosnt just fight fron stealth, but almost like a dirty fighter

There's a new combat maneuver in PF that's literally called "Dirty Trick". You might want to invest in that with feats like Improved and Greater Dirty Trick.

From what I heard it can be pretty fun though I haven't personally tried

Also, note that the Rogue class was updated to the Unchained Rogue class in PF, which is much better than the regular Rogue (almost overpowered when compared to other mundane options in PF)

[ShurikVch]

This is pathfinder onlyPity
3.0 have Fierce Grappler PrC, which at 2nd-level get Great Grappler CF, which allow to "hold and pin creatures up to two size categories larger than she is"
And Savage Grapple feat (Complete Adventurer) allow to auto-add SA damage to grapple, if grappling when in Wild Shape