Let's Fix: The Purple Dragon Knight

[Man_Over_Game]

This is the first of a series of threads about several "problem" classes, and getting your opinions and thoughts on how to make them better for everyone

I think at the time of creating this thread, the biggest problem class that I've ever seen is the Purple Dragon Knight (AKA the Banneret).

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For those that don't know, here's the loadout of this SCAG class:

Level 3: Second Wind heals 3 allies within 60 feet, equal to your Fighter level.

Level 7: Proficiency in Persuasion, or another Persuasion-esc skill. You have expertise in Persuasion

Level 10: When you Action Surge, 1 friend within 60 feet can attack with their reaction. At level 18, do this for one more friend.

Level 15: When you reroll a saving throw from Indomitable for a mental saving throw, an ally within 60 feet can also reroll if they're under the same effect.

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Gosh, where to begin?

Short rest healing burst? Life Cleric gets the same thing with less range with a LOT more versatility. The Life Cleric version heals 5x Cleric Level to allies within 30 feet, divided how you choose. At level 3 (when the Banneret gets their burst), the Life Cleric can heal 15 HP however they want, where the Banneret can only heal 9 HP and ONLY if there are 3 allies within their range. Sure, the Banneret heals with a bonus action and the Life Cleric heals with an action, but comparing Healing Word to Cure Wounds as an example, I don't think that's a good enough reason to have the power difference be that great.

Skills: Eh, sure. I'd prefer it if you got something like this at level 3, and maybe get Expertise later.

Action Surge: Quite terrible. Compare this to the Order cleric, who lets an ally reaction attack whenever you cast a spell that affects your ally, every turn.

Level 15: Indomitable can be used twice per long rest. Pretty "meh", but there are worse things (like the rest of the class).

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Interestingly enough, the Banneret, contrary to other ally-oriented melee classes (Redemption Paladin, for example) is usable at longer ranges. I'd actually like to see it have more powerful abilities with a reduced range, so that we can afford to increase its strength without breaking much, and to incentivize sticking near allies.

A few possible ideas:

Regain Second Wind when an ally starts Dying.
Second Wind burst reduced to 15 feet, heals 2x Fighter Level and affected allies can move 10 feet without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
Adjacent allies have advantage on saving throws.
Second Wind grants Fighter Level in HP and 2x Fighter Level in Temporary HP. The Temporary HP goes away at the start of your next turn.

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What would it take for you to see players wanting to play the Purple Dragon Knight?

[LudicSavant]

First thing is that you need something hefty at level 3, and healing a small amount of hit points using an existing resource ain’t it. The good fighter subclasses are spending entirely new resources and getting something defining for it (either maneuvers or spells/cantrips or fighting spirit).

[Man_Over_Game]

First thing is that you need something hefty at level 3, and healing a small amount of hit points using an existing resource ain’t it. The good fighter subclasses are spending entirely new resources and getting something defining for it (either maneuvers or spells/cantrips or fighting spirit).

Great point. The Battlemaster gets his own resource, and can pretty much do the same thing with a bunch of other cool features. While I don't hate the idea of Second Wind spreading benefits to your allies, making that the only benefit at level 3 is really weak.

I like the idea of putting both the Second Wind and Action Surge benefits at level 3, with the idea that you're naturally inspiring your allies just by doing what you do. For you, you're doing nothing special, yet your allies naturally want to follow your example. I think with that might be enough to see a "champion-esc" (simple but fun) option. My example would need something to replace the existing Action Surge buff, but I think that can just be done by adding more benefits (so the Second Wind buff has a wider range/heals more, Action Surge now allows allies to move AND attack, etc).

I do see where you're getting at with using a separate resource, but with the fact that Second Wind, Action Surge and Indomitable are already beneficial options that involve buffing rather than targeting an enemy, I think there's some good ideas we could do with just spreading those concepts onto allies.

It'd be more unique than just making a support-esc Battle Master.

[Beechgnome]

First thing is that you need something hefty at level 3, and healing a small amount of hit points using an existing resource ain’t it. The good fighter subclasses are spending entirely new resources and getting something defining for it (either maneuvers or spells/cantrips or fighting spirit).

This is basically the problem with the subclass. Everything they do they have to do within the existing fighter abilities. What about those times you want to second wind but no one else is injured? Or what if everyone could use a little heal but you are fine? Either way, you have to blow your one resource. It would have been better if they made the 3rd level ability separate.

Having said that, I did play an Orc (an oft-criticized race) Banneret once and had a blast. I just aggressively charged things and rallied the troops when appropriate.

[LudicSavant]

This is basically the problem with the subclass. Everything they do they have to do within the existing fighter abilities. What about those times you want to second wind but no one else is injured? Or what if everyone could use a little heal but you are fine? Either way, you have to blow your one resource. It would have been better if they made the 3rd level ability separate.

It's even worse with the level 15 ability. You actually have to fail a saving throw that an ally is also failing in order to have the chance to allow them to reroll. And it only works for mental saves.

If you succeed on the saving throw (and thus don't use Indomitable), you can't help them.

[Laird]

Here's what I would try to help convince others to play a more boring battlemaster.

Level 3: Second Wind heals 3 allies within 60 feet, equal to your Fighter level.
+
Inspiring Call: You may use a bonus action on your turn to inspire your allies to heroic deeds. Each Ally that can hear you may use their reaction to move without provoking opportunity attacks up to half their speed or make one weapon attack against a target in range. You may not use this feature again until after a short or long rest. At 18th level you may use this feature an additional time.

Level 7: Proficiency in Persuasion, or another Persuasion-esc skill. You have expertise in Persuasion.
+Stalwart Presence: Allies have advantage on saving throws against being frightened and charmed if they can see you.

Level 10: Gain an additional action surge, as a reaction on another players turn you may spur them into action, if you spend an action surge in this way, one ally you can see gains the benefits of your action surge.

Level 15: Indomitable Banners: Your very presence can alter the morale of your teammates. Allies within 30 feet of you benefit from your indomitable class feature. If they benefit in this way, they must finish a short or long rest before benefitting from this feature again. In addition, healing from your second wind is increased by 1/2 your Fighter level.

These make it a very support friendly class and result in some interesting decisions, allowing you to spend your resources tactically with your allies or do a few neat things yourself.

[stoutstien]

The healing needs to be buffed a tad. Maybe fighter lv + Cha modifier.
Then add an additional second wind at 5th and 7th lv.
Having four per short rest means they could use it once per fight most days.

The late game reroll should be just a group wide auto pass once per long rest.

[djreynolds]

Switch the 3rd level ability with the 10th level ability for starters

[Vorpalchicken]

Good idea. We wouldn't want him to breed.

[Kane0]

Roll the 'when you use X it also affects an ally' into a single feature

Add in a passive party buff, like an aura

Add in some ability to sacrifice your attacks for allies to take more (without butchering the action economy)

Some sort of bonus action feature, maybe to allow allies to move around

[thoroughlyS]

DIRECTED ATTACK
At 3rd level, you learn to better coordinate your efforts with those you fight alongside. When you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow a creature within 60 feet of you to make one weapon attack of its own with its reaction, provided it can see or hear you. If the attack hits, it deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus.

RALLYING CRY
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn how to inspire your allies to fight on past their injuries.
When you use your Second Wind feature, you can choose up to three creatures within 60 feet of you that can see or hear you. Each one regains hit points equal to your fighter level.

ROYAL ENVOY
A Purple Dragon knight serves as an envoy of the Cormyrean crown. Knights of high standing are expected to conduct themselves with grace.
At 7th level, you gain proficiency in the Persuasion skill. If you are already proficient in it, you gain proficiency in one of the following skills of your choice: Animal Handling, Insight, Intimidation, or Performance.
Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses Persuasion. You receive this benefit regardless of the skill proficiency you gain from this feature.

INSPIRING SURGE
Starting at 10th level, when you use your Action Surge feature, you can choose one creature within 60 feet of you that can see or hear you. That creature can make one weapon attack or cast a cantrip which targets only one creature with its reaction. They have advantage on their attack roll.
Starting at 18th level, you can choose two allies within 60 feet of you, rather than one.

REVITALIZING CRY
Beginning at 15th level, you can call upon your allies’ deepest reserves of fortitude. On your turn, you can call out to a creature within 60 feet of you that can see or hear you as a bonus action. If that creature is under an effect that can be ended with a saving throw, they can immediately make a saving throw to end that effect.
Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.

[loki_ragnarock]

Why not layer it?
No new resources actually makes some sense to me for a fighter who is supposed to make allies better. Alone you're just a fighter, nothing more. By letting the abilities you already have just grow into greater utility for a group, you kind of cement that idea. It isn't that you're just an unflinching badass, its that your unflinching badassness is contagious.
It's an interesting idea, but Purple Dragon Knight just doesn't add enough to make the abilities in question feel sufficiently different from the base ability; the riders remains an after thought. A side dish where they should be the main dish.
The following might be, however, a complete disregard for portion control.

3:
It's not actually that bad as a TPK buffer when the tankier people can revive a couple allies as a bonus action while recovering themselves. That said, the amount of healing is pretty terrible; 3 hp isn't going to be particularly meaningful even to third level characters. Maybe adding an equal amount as temp hp? That shouldn't be too on the toes of dedicated healers while adding a minor bump that isn't also dependent on the party being messed up already to be useful.

If you also remove the limit to the number of allies targeted, it'd could be beaucoup.


Rallying Cry: When you spend your second wind, your allies within 60ft regain hp and temp hp equal to your fighter level.

7:
The Samurai gets a skill thing at this level, but also proficiency with a new type of saving throw... which is probably better. Precedent for adding a save buff exists, so why not make it a communal one instead of a personal one? Add that when you spend your second wind allies within 60ft also gain +1d4 to saves for Cha mod rounds.

10:
Does action surge really need any help being awesome? I guess so, if you believe it should make everyone else awesome, too?
Remove the limited number of targets to just allies in range and you've got a bonafide leader of fighting men, right there. With enough of the right sort of allies you could get like an additional extra attack action out of it, but you spread the glory around the table so everyone feels like a winner.


15:
This is extremely bleh.
How about as a reaction you can spend a use of Indomitable on an ally who fails a saving throw to allow them to re-roll. And also gain a bonus use of Indomitable so you've got more to spread around.

[ad_hoc]

The biggest problem with it is that they can't heal characters at 0 hp.

[LudicSavant]

The biggest problem with it is that they can't heal characters at 0 hp.

Yup. They have to be able to see or hear you to get healed, which makes their healing ability nearly worthless at 3.

[Man_Over_Game]

DIRECTED ATTACK
At 3rd level, you learn to better coordinate your efforts with those you fight alongside. When you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow a creature within 60 feet of you to make one weapon attack of its own with its reaction, provided it can see or hear you. If the attack hits, it deals additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus.

INSPIRING SURGE
Starting at 10th level, when you use your Action Surge feature, you can choose one creature within 60 feet of you that can see or hear you. That creature can make one weapon attack or cast a cantrip which targets only one creature with its reaction. They have advantage on their attack roll.
Starting at 18th level, you can choose two allies within 60 feet of you, rather than one.

REVITALIZING CRY
Beginning at 15th level, you can call upon your allies’ deepest reserves of fortitude. On your turn, you can call out to a creature within 60 feet of you that can see or hear you as a bonus action. If that creature is under an effect that can be ended with a saving throw, they can immediately make a saving throw to end that effect.
Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.

All good ideas to work with. Directed Attack just seems too strong to not have any limited resource tied to it. Fighters have 2-3 attacks anyway, so telling an ally to make a better attack just seems a bit too good. Maybe restrict it to melee attacks, or to allies adjacent to the Knight, and I'd see it work well.

Inspiring Surge is expanded to work with casters. I dig it.

For Revitalizing Cry, I feel like making it a Bonus action is restrictive, but additionally, it just doesn't seem like a fun ability to begin with.




Why not layer it?
3:
Rallying Cry: When you spend your second wind, your allies within 60ft regain hp and temp hp equal to your fighter level.

7:
The Samurai gets a skill thing at this level, but also proficiency with a new type of saving throw... which is probably better. Precedent for adding a save buff exists, so why not make it a communal one instead of a personal one? Add that when you spend your second wind allies within 60ft also gain +1d4 to saves for Cha mod rounds.

10:
Does action surge really need any help being awesome? I guess so, if you believe it should make everyone else awesome, too?
Remove the limited number of targets to just allies in range and you've got a bonafide leader of fighting men, right there. With enough of the right sort of allies you could get like an additional extra attack action out of it, but you spread the glory around the table so everyone feels like a winner.


15:
This is extremely bleh.
How about as a reaction you can spend a use of Indomitable on an ally who fails a saving throw to allow them to re-roll. And also gain a bonus use of Indomitable so you've got more to spread around.

I agree with most of what you said here, Loki.

3: I do think that your changes to Second Wind make it a little bit better, but not by much. Maybe tack on a clause that allies may spend their reaction to move half their speed (provoking attacks of opportunity). That way it's incentivized to both use it in the middle of combat, or to rally the troops before the clash. It won't be overpowered in the middle of combat (due to not having Disengage movement), so I think it'd be fine. If we do decide to go with a movement increase AND temporary hitpoints, I'd probably say to have the Temp HP only last until the start of your next turn. If we do make it affect all allies, I'd probably say to reduce the range to 30 feet.

7: I do agree that the Samurai gets a little more, but that proposed option just seems a little bit too much to track. Maybe update the Second Wind temp hitpoints to grant the Knight's Charisma Mod to saving throws while you have them. That way, the Knight has some incentive to time his Second Wind (At this point, a rallying call) to his allies before the Big Bad releases his evil spell.

10: Not a huge fan of the burst damage that allows. The Knight attacks 6 times, and 4 more attacks from everyone else in the team, for 10 attacks in a single round. If a DM pulled something like that, there'd be some strong words and thrown pizza.

I like what thoroughly posted with their option on just making a well placed attack.

Another option would be to just allow Action Surge to invoke the same benefits from the level 3 and 7 features. So you now can heal your allies with Action Surge rather than just wasting a perfectly good Second Wind heal, so you're much less likely to waste resources. Then just tack on a clause that your Second Wind and your Action Surge allows allies in range to make a single attack.


This naturally hurts burst firing the Second Wind and Action Surge in the same turn, since the Temporary HP won't stack, and it's unlikely the team will need that much AoE healing. If you want to get 2 allied attacks in the same turn, you get it, but you waste a lot of healing to do so.
This allows versatility, so that you can use Action Surge and Second Wind for what they're good for (healing and attacking on your terms)
And keeps things consistent with a single mechanic to keep track of (that just simply keeps getting better).


Overall, this is not much different than the Glamour Bard's feature, except that the Knight's would be a bit more limited (since it'd be tied to 2 short rest use mechanics vs. the Bard's Bardic Inspiration), but a little more powerful (healing minor damage and allowing an attack).

15: Sure. Seems fine to me.

[thoroughlyS]

Directed Attack just seems too strong to not have any limited resource tied to it. Fighters have 2-3 attacks anyway, so telling an ally to make a better attack just seems a bit too good. Maybe restrict it to melee attacks, or to allies adjacent to the Knight, and I'd see it work well.
You have to remember that there is an opportunity cost associated with taking banneret. If it has limited uses, then why would I ever take this when battle masters get Commander's Strike? The two features would be effectively the same (aside from the bonus action cost, which is less impactful for a fighter) but the battle master has the luxury of choosing two other maneuvers. And then you have the comparison to the order domain, which can only be used when you cast a spell on someone. The difference here is that you're giving up one of your resources so that your ally can make an attack, whereas the cleric gets to use their resource AND their ally gets to make an attack. If you think the extra damage is too much, I could see removing it, or moving it to 18th level.

For Revitalizing Cry, I feel like making it a Bonus action is restrictive, but additionally, it just doesn't seem like a fun ability to begin with.
Again, bonus actions are less of a premium for the fighter than other classes, even at the higher levels. As for fun, I guess I was just trying to make the concept for Bulwark more accessible. I'm envisioning that scene where the hero is begging with their companion to "snap out of it", or where they tell their companions "don't lose hope". I could see replacing it.

[Man_Over_Game]

You have to remember that there is an opportunity cost associated with taking banneret. If it has limited uses, then why would I ever take this when battle masters get Commander's Strike? The two features would be effectively the same (aside from the bonus action cost, which is less impactful for a fighter) but the battle master has the luxury of choosing two other maneuvers. And then you have the comparison to the order domain, which can only be used when you cast a spell on someone. The difference here is that you're giving up one of your resources so that your ally can make an attack, whereas the cleric gets to use their resource AND their ally gets to make an attack. If you think the extra damage is too much, I could see removing it, or moving it to 18th level.

Again, bonus actions are less of a premium for the fighter than other classes, even at the higher levels. As for fun, I guess I was just trying to make the concept for Bulwark more accessible. I'm envisioning that scene where the hero is begging with their companion to "snap out of it", or where they tell their companions "don't lose hope". I could see replacing it.

Both valid points. I'd do what the Commander's Strike does and require a bonus action, and only allow the proficiency bonus damage if it's a melee attack (to reduce the synergy with things like Rogue's sneak attack or easy Hunter's Mark/Hex activations) and I could see it really working out.

[Zuras]

Keep the abilities simple.

The Level 3 healing ability is far to weak. Keep it but add another:
Leadership (like the Knight NPC). For one minute, all allies within 30’ of the PDK who can hear the PDK get + 1d4 to saves and hit rolls.

Usable 1/Long rest.
Increases to 2/Long rest at 10
3/Long rest at 18

Alternately keep it short rest but then only get a second use/rest at 18.

Starting at L7, when they trigger Leadership, everyone within 30’ gets temp HP equal to the PDKs level.

I think giving them more powerful abilities but keeping the drawback of needing to be heard feels better—basically the PDK has the power of magical yelling.

[Man_Over_Game]

Keep the abilities simple.

The Level 3 healing ability is far to weak. Keep it but add another:
Leadership (like the Knight NPC). For one minute, all allies within 30’ of the PDK who can hear the PDK get + 1d4 to saves and hit rolls.

Usable 1/Long rest.
Increases to 2/Long rest at 10
3/Long rest at 18

Alternately keep it short rest but then only get a second use/rest at 18.

Starting at L7, when they trigger Leadership, everyone within 30’ gets temp HP equal to the PDKs level.

I think giving them more powerful abilities but keeping the drawback of needing to be heard feels better—basically the PDK has the power of magical yelling.

I agree that it should be simple, but I think that might be a bit *too* simple. The entire subclass could be scripted as:
"During a big fight, shout. Now attack each turn".

It IS simple, like the Champion, but I don't think that the Champion is the best example. It's rarely played, and few people enjoy the concept, and creating a 1-and-done buff warrior is going to run into a similar issue.

[jas61292]

I think the biggest key is to make the level 3 ability worthwhile. All of its current abilities are awful except the persuasion expertise, but the fact that the first ability is so terrible means no one even gets far enough to experience the rest of the awfulness.

Personally, I like the idea of the level 3 ability being a healing ability. And I like that it is a bonus action. But the amount healed is garbage, especially at level 3, and it uses a resource that you already had, without improving its effect on yourself, or giving you more uses. My first change to the class would probably be to give them an additional use of second wind, gaining more uses at the same levels a battlemaster gets more dice. And I would also make allies heal the full amount that you do. A bad heal once per rest is awful and not worth it. An improved mass healing word multiple times per rest (with the caveat that it can't heal guys already at 0) is actually pretty darn good.

That being said, however much better this would be it would still feel underwhelming if it was your only combat ability until level 10. I would be tempted to move the level 10 ability down to 3 as well. In its place at level 10, I'd probably move up that last ability and make it actually good. Let it work regardless if whether you also failed a save (or if it even targeted you), and give it extra uses.

And fir a final ability... I don't even know. Just about anything would be an improvement here.

[Zuras]

If you want something different, and more complex, but not a re-hash of the Battle Master using superiority dice, what you are looking at is an attempt to re-build the PDK as a Battle Master/Bard Hybrid.

Instead of “Leadership”, give them Leadership Dice, which start at d4 and increase to d8.

They can spend a leadership die to do the following:
Have an ally make an attack (costs ally’s reaction and 1 PDK attack + bonus action, like commanders strike)

Have an ally move up to half their move (costs ally reaction + PDK bonus action)

Give an Ally Fighter level+leadership die temp HP.

Give an ally +d4 (or Leadership die value) to a save or attack roll (uses the PDKs reaction, must be able to hear PDK).

Leadership dice would equal Charisma Mod, minimum 1, and refresh on a short rest.

You still have the flavor of running around yelling instructions, and it is more reactive than Battlemaster/Bard abilities while still doing the same sorts of stuff.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you want something different, and more complex, but not a re-hash of the Battle Master using superiority dice, what you are looking at is an attempt to re-build the PDK as a Battle Master/Bard Hybrid.

Instead of “Leadership”, give them Leadership Dice, which start at d4 and increase to d8.

They can spend a leadership die to do the following:
Have an ally make an attack (costs ally’s reaction and 1 PDK attack + bonus action, like commanders strike)

Have an ally move up to half their move (costs ally reaction + PDK bonus action)

Give an Ally Fighter level+leadership die temp HP.

Give an ally +d4 (or Leadership die value) to a save or attack roll (uses the PDKs reaction, must be able to hear PDK).

Leadership dice would equal Charisma Mod, minimum 1, and refresh on a short rest.

You still have the flavor of running around yelling instructions, and it is more reactive than Battlemaster/Bard abilities while still doing the same sorts of stuff. It's more fiddly but it does fit the theme better.

[Man_Over_Game]

My one concern is that, mechanically, it doesn't stand out from the Battle Master or the Arcane Archer.

Note that almost every subclass introduces a mechanic that hasn't been seen in any other subclass.

The Archfey patron, for instance, utilizes short rest AoE bursts, where the Undying Patron introduces high survivability.

The Samurai introduces a simple long rest mechanic and has everything tie into that mechanic, where the Eldritch Knight has a complex long rest mechanic, which generally don't tie in together.

The Glamour Bard improves an unseen mobility ability that other bards don't have, where something like the Valor bard improves survivability.

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On the other hand, maybe it's not a problem to make the Knight have a Superiority Die clone. But I feel like with how the existing Battle Master already has Commander's Strike and Rally, it's already an uphill battle to get the Knight to copy the Battle Master, support his team, AND feel unique while doing so.

[MaxWilson]

On the other hand, maybe it's not a problem to make the Knight have a Superiority Die clone. But I feel like with how the existing Battle Master already has Commander's Strike and Rally, it's already an uphill battle to get the Knight to copy the Battle Master, support his team, AND feel unique while doing so.

To be fair, Battlemaster is usually better off not using Commander's Strike (it costs an attack, a bonus action, a reaction, and a superiority die that could otherwise go to Ripose or Precise Strike, so in a way it costs 3 attacks plus the ally's reaction), but the Purple Dragon Knight can use his version freely.

[Zuras]

I don’t see a way to provide support abilities without using similar mechanics to Battle Master Superiority Dice or Bard Inspiration dice, but you can make it more unique by making everything either happen on a reaction or when you use one of your existing Fighter abilities.

[Nhorianscum]

I rather enjoy PDK as a social fighter. Some skills at 3 are really all it wants to function as such.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I'm imagining a fighter version of Swashbuckler mixed with something like the Ancestral Guardian Barb. I don't have specific ideas yet for how to implement that, but it's the big picture that comes to mind. Basically keying off of Charisma in some way, maybe aiding in your party's mobility rather than your own, and then providing some protection/healing. I actually think the healing would work great as an aura that comes up and you can cycle through a few options as a bonus action on each turn.

[stoutstien]

I'm imagining a fighter version of Swashbuckler mixed with something like the Ancestral Guardian Barb. I don't have specific ideas yet for how to implement that, but it's the big picture that comes to mind. Basically keying off of Charisma in some way, maybe aiding in your party's mobility rather than your own, and then providing some protection/healing. I actually think the healing would work great as an aura that comes up and you can cycle through a few options as a bonus action on each turn.
Could just swipe the glamor bard ba temo hp and movement

[LudicSavant]

I think the biggest key is to make the level 3 ability worthwhile.

I agree. Whatever they get at level 3 should be on par with...

- Proficiency with Cook's Utensils (Xanathar's uses), 4/short rest use of Riposte/Trip Attack/Precision Attack/Pushing Attack

or...

- Booming Blade (esp w/Warcaster), Minor Illusion, the ability to summon 2 bonded weapons at will, and 2/long rest use of Shield/Absorb Elements/Protection from Evil and Good

[Vorpalchicken]

I agree that the subclass would be quite a lot better if the level three feature worked on 0 hp targets. I suspect it was an oversight that unconscious creatures "can't perceive their surroundings" and therefore cannot be affected by a power that relies on hearing.
I guess no one is ever awakened by thunder or crying babies or clumsy burglars in the D&D universe.

[Justin Sane]

I guess no one is ever awakened by crying babies in the D&D universe. [paraphrased]You know what? Risk of being devoured by dragons be damned, I'd move in anyway.

[Specter]

The problem is that all these abilities are rest-reliant, and can only be used once per rest. If you're getting a feature like that, it needs to be much, MUCH bigger than 'your friend makes one attack'.

[LtPowers]

I agree that the subclass would be quite a lot better if the level three feature worked on 0 hp targets. I suspect it was an oversight that unconscious creatures "can't perceive their surroundings" and therefore cannot be affected by a power that relies on hearing.
I guess no one is ever awakened by thunder or crying babies or clumsy burglars in the D&D universe.

The effect is supposed to be one of inspiration, a rallying cry. It kind of makes sense that that wouldn't work on unconscious targets, even if mechanically it's less than ideal.


Powers &8^]

[Man_Over_Game]

The effect is supposed to be one of inspiration, a rallying cry. It kind of makes sense that that wouldn't work on unconscious targets, even if mechanically it's less than ideal.


Powers &8^]

This makes sense. We just have to make the effect STILL worth it, even if it can’t heal dying allies.

The big problem is that healing dying allies is the entire point of healing in 5e.

[MaxWilson]

The problem is that all these abilities are rest-reliant, and can only be used once per rest. If you're getting a feature like that, it needs to be much, MUCH bigger than 'your friend makes one attack'.

Well, yes, but it's not exactly the first time 5E has handed out a lame long-rest ability. Look at the Rogue capstone for example:

Stroke of Luck
At 20th level, you have an uncanny knack for succeeding when you need to. If your Attack misses a target within range, you can turn the miss into a hit. Alternatively, if you fail an ability check, you can treat the d20 roll as a 20.

Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or Long Rest.

Purple Dragon Knight's Action Surge ability is arguably better than the bolded use of the Rogue capstone: usable just as often, can boost nova damage for important scenarios, has a similar effect on DPR (potentially turning a miss into a hit ~= enabling an extra attack; which one comes out ahead depends on AC vs. to-hit).

But I basically agree with you. Just spitballing, but here's how I would have written it:

INSPIRING SURGE
Starting at 10th level, when you use your Action Surge feature, you can choose a number of creatures equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1) within 60 feet of you that are allied with you. Each creature can make one melee or ranged weapon attack with its reaction, provided that it can see or hear you. Starting at 17th level, creatures with Multiattack or Extra Attack can apply those features to the extra attack you grant them, instead of making only a single weapon attack.

It makes PDKs a little bit more MAD, but in a way that IMO fits their theme. A Cha 16 PDK should play differently than a CHA 7 PDK.


This makes sense. We just have to make the effect STILL worth it, even if it can’t heal dying allies.

The big problem is that healing dying allies is the entire point of healing in 5e.

Unless your DM has already rewritten the death save rules to make proactive healing more attractive and whack-a-mole healing-in-combat less efficient.

[Man_Over_Game]

INSPIRING SURGE
Starting at 10th level, when you use your Action Surge feature, you can choose a number of creatures equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1) within 60 feet of you that are allied with you. Each creature can make one melee or ranged weapon attack with its reaction, provided that it can see or hear you. Starting at 17th level, creatures with Multiattack or Extra Attack can apply those features to the extra attack you grant them, instead of making only a single weapon attack.

It makes PDKs a little bit more MAD, but in a way that IMO fits their theme. A Cha 20 PDK should play differently than a CHA 7 PDK.

That's fair. It definitely is a lot better, but I think the 3rd level feature is the one that needs the most love.




Unless your DM has already rewritten the death save rules to make proactive healing more attractive and whack-a-mole healing-in-combat less efficient.

Exhaustion on Dying? Seems the simplest solution.

[LudicSavant]

If you're going to make PDK MAD, don't wait until level 10 to do it. Ability dependencies that come online late are awkward.

[MaxWilson]

That's fair. It definitely is a lot better, but I think the 3rd level feature is the one that needs the most love.

Yes, it needs a rewrite also, probably along the same CHA-based lines. Could be as simple as adding your Charisma modifier to all of the healing; or simply replacing the whole feature with "you gain the Inspiring Leader feat for free."


Exhaustion on Dying? Seems the simplest solution.

Stealing from GURPS and AD&D: negative HP.

12.) You can go below zero HP. Instead of the normal rules on death saves and stabilization, you die whenever you reach negative (max HP). E.g. if you have 40 max HP normally, you die at -40 HP. When you are at zero HP or below, you are either stunned or unconscious. (If you choose to make a DC 15 Con save and succeed you can be stunned, but if you fail the save or choose not to try, you are unconscious from shock.) When you are below zero HP and are not already stable, you must make a death save at the start of every round. If you succeed, you are stable unless/until you take damage again. If you fail, you take 20% of your max HP in damage, rounded UP, not down. You can be stabilized by another character's actions as usual, through the use of a healer's kit or the Wisdom (Medicine) skill or a Spare the Dying cantrip, and any amount of healing also stabilizes you, even 1 HP.

Example: if you have 40 HP normally, and you get hit twice by an Iron Golem for a total of 50 HP of damage, you're now at -10 HP (and likely unconscious, unless you made the DC 15 Con save). Since you're at -10 HP, not zero HP, you can't be restored to full activity by a simple 1 HP Word of Healing as you would under PHB rules--it takes 11 HP of healing to get you conscious again. At the start of every round, you make a death save (as usual, it is DC 10 and no attribute modifiers apply). If you succeed you stabilize at your current HP, otherwise you lose another 8 HP and must save again next round. If you ever reach -40 HP you die.

Remark: In some ways losing 20% of your HP is more generous than the default rules because it only takes one roll to stabilize, and someone who is just barely at negative HP may take five failures before they die. A wound which takes you down to -1 HP is extremely unlikely to kill you. In other ways though, it is less generous because stabilizing doesn't wipe out past failures--that requires actual healing. Furthermore, if you're deep in the negatives, a single failure will kill you, possibly before anyone else can intervene.

[Man_Over_Game]

If you're going to make PDK MAD, don't wait until level 10 to do it. Ability dependencies that come online late are awkward.

Samurai DO get a bonus based off of Wisdom for a minor feature, when Wisdom is not mentioned anywhere else in the subclass.

Berserker Barbarians also have a Charisma-based fear effect that comes online around level 10. It's not UNHEARD of, but I agree it's something we should avoid.

[LudicSavant]

Samurai DO get a bonus based off of Wisdom for a minor feature, when Wisdom is not mentioned anywhere else in the subclass.

Berserker Barbarians also have a Charisma-based fear effect that comes online around level 10. It's not UNHEARD of, but I agree it's something we should avoid.

Samurai are fine IMHO because Fighters often have tertiary Wis anyways.

Berserker, on the other hand, is exactly what I had in mind for such awkwardness.

[MaxWilson]

Samurai DO get a bonus based off of Wisdom for a minor feature, when Wisdom is not mentioned anywhere else in the subclass.

And Eldritch Knights have a minor dependency on Int, which doesn't matter much especially prior to level 10. The PDK can be approximately as MAD as the Eldritch Knight and it won't cause issues. The intent is to differentiate Cha 7 PDKs and Cha 12-16 PDKs w/rt something other than Persuasion checks, not to make Cha 20 mandatory. Edit: see also Enchanter dependency on Charisma.

Nevertheless I agree that the 3rd level ability needs a slight rewrite. I edited my comment above to add a couple of spitball ideas.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yes, it needs a rewrite also, probably along the same CHA-based lines. Could be as simple as adding your Charisma modifier to all of the healing; or simply replacing the whole feature with "you gain the Inspiring Leader feat for free."



Stealing from GURPS and AD&D: negative HP.

12.) You can go below zero HP. Instead of the normal rules on death saves and stabilization, you die whenever you reach negative (max HP). E.g. if you have 40 max HP normally, you die at -40 HP. When you are at zero HP or below, you are either stunned or unconscious. (If you choose to make a DC 15 Con save and succeed you can be stunned, but if you fail the save or choose not to try, you are unconscious from shock.) When you are below zero HP and are not already stable, you must make a death save at the start of every round. If you succeed, you are stable unless/until you take damage again. If you fail, you take 20% of your max HP in damage, rounded UP, not down. You can be stabilized by another character's actions as usual, through the use of a healer's kit or the Wisdom (Medicine) skill or a Spare the Dying cantrip, and any amount of healing also stabilizes you, even 1 HP.

Example: if you have 40 HP normally, and you get hit twice by an Iron Golem for a total of 50 HP of damage, you're now at -10 HP (and likely unconscious, unless you made the DC 15 Con save). Since you're at -10 HP, not zero HP, you can't be restored to full activity by a simple 1 HP Word of Healing as you would under PHB rules--it takes 11 HP of healing to get you conscious again. At the start of every round, you make a death save (as usual, it is DC 10 and no attribute modifiers apply). If you succeed you stabilize at your current HP, otherwise you lose another 8 HP and must save again next round. If you ever reach -40 HP you die.

Remark: In some ways losing 20% of your HP is more generous than the default rules because it only takes one roll to stabilize, and someone who is just barely at negative HP may take five failures before they die. A wound which takes you down to -1 HP is extremely unlikely to kill you. In other ways though, it is less generous because stabilizing doesn't wipe out past failures--that requires actual healing. Furthermore, if you're deep in the negatives, a single failure will kill you, possibly before anyone else can intervene.



Not a big fan of the 20% rule. Why not have the bleedout rate just be equal to 2x your level?

Here's a chart of average HP per level, for the first few levels:

•Level 1: 11 HP
•Level 2: 18 HP
•Level 3: 25 HP
•Level 4: 32 HP
•Level 5: 39 HP
•Level 6: 46 HP
•Level 7: 53 HP
•Level 8: 60 HP

A level 1 person with the 20% rule would bleed out at a rate of 3 HP per turn. With the 2*level rule, it'd be 2 HP per turn.
A level 8 person with the 20% rule would bleed out at a rate of 12 HP per turn. With the 2*level rule, it'd be 16 per turn.

My version is a little more punishing for wizards and high levels, but rewards players at higher levels for picking tankier characters and sticking with them. But mostly, it's roughly similar and doesn't deal with the awkwardness of 20% in 5e.

[MaxWilson]

Not a big fan of the 20% rule. Why not have the bleedout rate just be equal to 2x your level?

Doesn't much matter--either would work. Pick the one you personally find simpler.

You could even make it a fixed amount like -5 HP per failure. The dynamics basically wouldn't change: the main thing is that proactive healing now becomes more valuable than whack-a-mole healing after an ally goes down, because the ally doesn't lose concentration/actions. And as a bonus, you now have a nice clean way for PCs to find a dying warrior on the field of battle who still gasps out a few cryptic words and hands them a treasure map before expiring. (Or not expiring, if they manage to stabilize/heal him in time.)

[Man_Over_Game]

Doesn't much matter--either would work. Pick the one you personally find simpler.

You could even make it a fixed amount like -5 HP per failure. The dynamics basically wouldn't change: the main thing is that proactive healing now becomes more valuable than whack-a-mole healing after an ally goes down, because the ally doesn't lose concentration/actions. And as a bonus, you now have a nice clean way for PCs to find a dying warrior on the field of battle who still gasps out a few cryptic words and hands them a treasure map before expiring. (Or not expiring, if they manage to stabilize/heal him in time.)

The main concern I see is how, within the narrative, it makes sense that someone being healed and attacked over and over gets stunned each turn, but someone dying and getting hit does not.

[stoutstien]

I just make a player lose 1d12 minus con modifier off hp max Everytime they drop to 0 and they have to spend a hit die to remove each one. Easy to track.

[MaxWilson]

The main concern I see is how, within the narrative, it makes sense that someone being healed and attacked over and over gets stunned each turn, but someone dying and getting hit does not.

Can you explain this bit? I must be misunderstanding because it seems to me that once someone is dead, they're dead, Jim.

In any case, if you want to rule that being attacked and further injured while below 0 HP forces another Con save to avoid going into shock, that is not only totally reasonable in my eyes but exactly how I would run it, though I realize now that I didn't write that down. I could be wrong but I think that's pretty much how shock works in real life, no?

[Max_Killjoy]

I see the acronym MAD repeatedly, and I assume it doesn't mean Mutually Assured Destruction.

"Massively Ability Dependent"?

[Man_Over_Game]

I see the acronym MAD repeatedly, and I assume it doesn't mean Mutually Assured Destruction.

"Massively Ability Dependent"?

Multiple Attribute Dependency

Since you can only do so many actions in a single turn, it's best to specialize your stats into improving your actions. But if you are trying to do multiple things using different attributes, you will have to divide how you spend your attributes, which means all of your actions are going to suffer.

For example, a Fighter with Strength 20 will make every action with a +5 modifier every turn to attack.
However, a Paladin with Charisma and Strength 14 will make their actions with a +2 modifier. He can cast a spell with +2, and he can attack with +2, but since he cannot attack AND cast a spell, the best he'll ever be is +2 per turn. Versatility comes with a price.

In order to maximize how powerful your actions and your presence is on the battlefield, it's usually best to focus on 2 stats at once. Focusing on more attributes leads to being "MAD", or having too many important stats that you cannot use at the same time. With your attribute investments being spread out, the singular action you take each turn will be weaker than the simple Fighter's.

Or at least, that's how it used to be. Outside of Bards, there is not a huge dependency on your attributes like in prior editions, so having a "subpar" 13-14 in several stats won't be the end of the world.

[Vorpalchicken]

The effect is supposed to be one of inspiration, a rallying cry. It kind of makes sense that that wouldn't work on unconscious targets, even if mechanically it's less than ideal.




Well if your allies were brought down three seconds ago by dragon breath and you are shouting at them to get up and keep fighting, I think the shoe still fits.

[MaxWilson]

Well if your allies were brought down three seconds ago by dragon breath and you are shouting at them to get up and keep fighting, I think the shoe still fits.

Heh. "Please don't be dead."

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PleaseWakeUp

[opaopajr]

I rather enjoy PDK as a social fighter. Some skills at 3 are really all it wants to function as such.

This is my favorite fix. It gives the fighter more lateral things to do while sticking to the theme of a cultured warrior. My version:

3rd -- New Hobbies: Learn two new Tools or Languages in any combination.

You'll get a few artisans, musicians, or linguists along the way. Saves time and money. Sort of a baby Skilled or Linguist feat as a ribbon.

As for the Second Wind heal... that's hard a function to balance because its recharge rate varies by table and is free. My easiest "fix" (as I am not seeing the dire need) is allow the player to spend a Hit Die to refresh using Second Wind & Rallying Cry.

[Max_Killjoy]

This is my favorite fix. It gives the fighter more lateral things to do while sticking to the theme of a cultured warrior. My version:

3rd -- New Hobbies: Learn two new Tools or Languages in any combination.

You'll get a few artisans, musicians, or linguists along the way. Saves time and money. Sort of a baby Skilled or Linguist feat as a ribbon.

As for the Second Wind heal... that's hard a function to balance because its recharge rate varies by table and is free. My easiest "fix" (as I am not seeing the dire need) is allow the player to spend a Hit Die to refresh using Second Wind & Rallying Cry.

Are there any abilities now that allow a character to share their hit die with the party, so that everyone gets the heal?

Just a thought.

[ad_hoc]

The effect is supposed to be one of inspiration, a rallying cry. It kind of makes sense that that wouldn't work on unconscious targets, even if mechanically it's less than ideal.


Powers &8^]

I don't like that characters are unconscious at 0 either.

They go from that to instantly being aware and active when healed. That also doesn't make sense.

Rather, I envision characters at 0 to be like action heroes who are bleeding out. On the floor, unable to do anything, but still watching what is going on.

So then here comes Rallying Cry and they are stuck.

[Malifice]

The thing that ****s me about this archetype is Im better off playing a BM fighter, and just selecting the warlord-y manouvers from it (Rally, Distracting attack, Manouvering attack etc).

[Doug Lampert]

I don't like that characters are unconscious at 0 either.

They go from that to instantly being aware and active when healed. That also doesn't make sense.

Rather, I envision characters at 0 to be like action heroes who are bleeding out. On the floor, unable to do anything, but still watching what is going on.

So then here comes Rallying Cry and they are stuck.

The incapacitate but not unconscious works vastly better for healing (as you point out) and also allows things like dying speeches. I've never understood why they keep having people go unconscious rather than just having them go incapacitated.

And even if they are unconscious, unconscious people can still hear, and some things are far more likely to wake them than others. Crying baby wakes people where much louder sounds won't. Amazingly inspiring leader who can more or less rouse the dead to action when he gives a speech is what I WANT from this archetype.

[Vorpalchicken]

I don't like that characters are unconscious at 0 either.

They go from that to instantly being aware and active when healed. That also doesn't make sense.

Rather, I envision characters at 0 to be like action heroes who are bleeding out. On the floor, unable to do anything, but still watching what is going on.

So then here comes Rallying Cry and they are stuck.

That's exactly the way I see it too.

[loki_ragnarock]

I'm not sure the class with the most stat bumps in the game is going to be unable to plan around boosting their charisma?

Hmm... let's assume that's true, though; there are opportunity costs that come from not inflating your main stats, so you could fall behind other similar fighters. Charisma as an off stat makes a lot of sense for the feel of the class, but we don't want them to be too MAD. A lack of new resources makes thematic sense, but we don't want them to feel too constrained with their limited resources.

Maybe a way to do that would be to:
Expand the number or type of bonuses provided by expending second wind.
Give them additional uses of second wind.

This could reduce the dependency on Con; max hp isn't quite as important if you have multiple instances to refill your pool. This would allow you to move some of your initial stat points from Con and into Cha, leaving some of those ASIs for further boosts to Charisma or Constitution down the line. Alternatively, it gives the subclass the benefit of being a great damage sponge if they just go with the traditional strength/constitution angle.

Spitballing:

3rd:
Rally: At third level, when a Purple Dragon Knight uses their Second Wind, allies within 30 feet are healed hp equal to the PDK's fighter level and also gain the PDK's fighter level as temporary hp. Additionally, allies may move their speed as a reaction if they can see or hear the PDK. The PDK also gains an additional use of Second Wind per short rest.

7th:
Force of Personality: At seventh level, the Purple Dragon Knight gains proficiency and expertise with Persuasion. If they already have proficiency with Persuasion, then they gain proficiency in one other charisma based skill. Additionally, they gain an additional use of Second Wind per short rest, and when they use it their allies gain your charisma modifier to saving throws while they have temporary hit points.

11th:
Okay, I'm still unconvinced that Action surge really needs the help. So maybe a slightly different take?
Maybe push some of the over the top aspects back a smidge?
Inspiring Surge: At 11th level, the Purple Dragon Knight may spend their Action Surge to direct their allies to attack instead of taking an additional action. When you do this all allies in 30ft may make one weapon attack as a reaction with a bonus to hit and damage equal to your Charisma Modifier. At 17th level, allies may make these additional attacks when the PDK uses Action Surge to take an additional action.

15th:
Exhortation: When an ally within 60 ft that can see or hear the PDK fails a saving throw, the PDK may spend a use of Indomitable as a reaction to allow them to reroll that saving throw with a bonus equal to the PDK's charisma modifier. Further, the PDK gains an additional use of Indomitable.



With this set up, if you stick to charisma you can bump up your allies fairly significantly on a regular basis. If you decide to be a more traditional grr/argh type fighter, you can absorb more damage than any other variety of fighter. You can move your allies into position. You can cause your allies to attack for you better than they could on their own. You can tell them to "snap out of it" or "shake it off" or "focus on the objective" or just "duck!" when they would otherwise fail without your direction.

You aren't a quite a bard, but I don't think anyone would wish you weren't in the party.

[Chaosmancer]

I'm not sure the class with the most stat bumps in the game is going to be unable to plan around boosting their charisma?

Hmm... let's assume that's true, though; there are opportunity costs that come from not inflating your main stats, so you could fall behind other similar fighters. Charisma as an off stat makes a lot of sense for the feel of the class, but we don't want them to be too MAD. A lack of new resources makes thematic sense, but we don't want them to feel too constrained with their limited resources.

Maybe a way to do that would be to:
Expand the number or type of bonuses provided by expending second wind.
Give them additional uses of second wind.

This could reduce the dependency on Con; max hp isn't quite as important if you have multiple instances to refill your pool. This would allow you to move some of your initial stat points from Con and into Cha, leaving some of those ASIs for further boosts to Charisma or Constitution down the line. Alternatively, it gives the subclass the benefit of being a great damage sponge if they just go with the traditional strength/constitution angle.

Spitballing:

3rd:
Rally: At third level, when a Purple Dragon Knight uses their Second Wind, allies within 30 feet are healed hp equal to the PDK's fighter level and also gain the PDK's fighter level as temporary hp. Additionally, allies may move their speed as a reaction if they can see or hear the PDK. The PDK also gains an additional use of Second Wind per short rest.

7th:
Force of Personality: At seventh level, the Purple Dragon Knight gains proficiency and expertise with Persuasion. If they already have proficiency with Persuasion, then they gain proficiency in one other charisma based skill. Additionally, they gain an additional use of Second Wind per short rest, and when they use it their allies gain your charisma modifier to saving throws while they have temporary hit points.

11th:
Okay, I'm still unconvinced that Action surge really needs the help. So maybe a slightly different take?
Maybe push some of the over the top aspects back a smidge?
Inspiring Surge: At 11th level, the Purple Dragon Knight may spend their Action Surge to direct their allies to attack instead of taking an additional action. When you do this all allies in 30ft may make one weapon attack as a reaction with a bonus to hit and damage equal to your Charisma Modifier. At 17th level, allies may make these additional attacks when the PDK uses Action Surge to take an additional action.

15th:
Exhortation: When an ally within 60 ft that can see or hear the PDK fails a saving throw, the PDK may spend a use of Indomitable as a reaction to allow them to reroll that saving throw with a bonus equal to the PDK's charisma modifier. Further, the PDK gains an additional use of Indomitable.



With this set up, if you stick to charisma you can bump up your allies fairly significantly on a regular basis. If you decide to be a more traditional grr/argh type fighter, you can absorb more damage than any other variety of fighter. You can move your allies into position. You can cause your allies to attack for you better than they could on their own. You can tell them to "snap out of it" or "shake it off" or "focus on the objective" or just "duck!" when they would otherwise fail without your direction.

You aren't a quite a bard, but I don't think anyone would wish you weren't in the party.

I kind of like these a lot.

One change I would make is I'd remove the usage of Indomitable from the level 15 ability and just let them use their reaction twice per short rest. Also I think that since you probably aren't using cha mod twice (they get cha mod if they have temp hp) so I'd give them advantage.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I haven't followed this that closely, though I'm excited for this series of posts. I just thought about giving temp HP based on damage dealt plus charisma modifier. Maybe target one person for 1/2 dmg+your CHA mod, or a 10 foot radius aura for 1/4 dmg+CHA mod.

[Man_Over_Game]

@Loki, Great ideas. I think with this, we're really close to completing what we're looking for.

Few ideas, though. Rather than adding another use of Second Wind right off the bat, why not just have it so that you Rally every time you use Second Wind and Action Surge at level 3? That still gives you 2 uses of Rally.

I like the Charisma saving throw benefit. I'm not 100% sure how that'd work on abilities that deal damage, followed by a saving throw (like poisons), but I assume that the trigger that checks for THP occurs after the damage, so unless the damage was low, there'd be no bonus to save on those kinds of abilities. Still good, though.

With my idea of Rallying with Action Surge + Second Wind, maybe at level 11 to have your Rally allow (Cha Mod, minimum 1) allies to make a weapon attack against an enemy adjacent to you or them.

Lastly, to work off of an Indomitable-style of ability, whenever you Rally, each ally affected can reroll a saving throw that they're currently under, and you can spend your Reaction when an ally makes a Saving Throw to allow them to reroll it.

-------

What this ends up doing is giving the PDK a very powerful short rest resource that gets even better each level, without making the PDK step on the toes of other Fighters by just having more Second Winds/attacks. It's a group hug Fighter, and I feel like this solidifies the concept. It also makes it more versatile, since you can force a Rally for a number of reasons but without wasting the healing/attack for yourself (since you can now choose between healing or attacking to use the Rally).

What do you think?

[Laird]

How do you all feel about not overhauling the whole class but just buffing a few things?

Perhaps adding +CHA onto the Second Wind feature (makes it more relevant at lower levels), at level 10 the reaction adds your CHA modifier damage to the attack your ally makes and then at 15 in addition to the bulwark, you get:


Unyielding When you roll initiative, if you have no uses of second wind, you regain 1 use. (This could also be the level 18 feature but...it's pretty similar to the Battlemasters gaining 1 superiority die at the start of combats.)

I feel like these three things would definitely make a few more people want to play this subclass. It reinforces the idea that you can do well on your own but are BETTER in a group. (It also has points over BM by adding damage and not having to sacrifice any of your own attacks, just some resources you'd use anyways.)

[opaopajr]

Are there any abilities now that allow a character to share their hit die with the party, so that everyone gets the heal?

Just a thought.

Not that I can remember off the top of my head. Nor would it be overwhelming design space, as there are many healing ways now and Hit Dice are rather ignored given Long Rest full heal rate. Using a HD to refresh Second Wind/Rally Cry would be solid, given LR "1/2 HD refresh." :smallsmile: But it's one idea of many.

[Vorpalchicken]

(edit-quoted wrong person)

Meant to quote Max

"Are there any abilities now that allow a character to share their hit die with the party, so that everyone gets the heal?"

Vampires in 4e could do this. I'm now convinced that the only real solution here is to turn the Purple Dragon Knight into the Purple Vampire Knight.

[stoutstien]

(edit-quoted wrong person)

Meant to quote Max

"Are there any abilities now that allow a character to share their hit die with the party, so that everyone gets the heal?"

Vampires in 4e could do this. I'm now convinced that the only real solution here is to turn the Purple Dragon Knight into the Purple Vampire Knight.
Only if you laugh while counting and has arithmomania.

[opaopajr]

Only if you laugh while counting and has arithmomania.

The laughing is easy to provide. :smallwink: And since Rallying Cry depends on PDK's Fighter lvl, it is easily doable to mimic Sesame Street's the Count. Or you could go all Oprah, "That's 3 HP for you, and you, and you! Three HP for all my allies, just look under your chair!"

And nothing really stops people from attempting another Short Rest soon after one, besides campaign consequences. So you can 'count' or 'gift' HP every hour if you wish. :smalltongue:

[eunwoler]

How do you all feel about not overhauling the whole class but just buffing a few things?

Perhaps adding +CHA onto the Second Wind feature (makes it more relevant at lower levels), at level 10 the reaction adds your CHA modifier damage to the attack your ally makes and then at 15 in addition to the bulwark, you get:


Unyielding When you roll initiative, if you have no uses of second wind, you regain 1 use. (This could also be the level 18 feature but...it's pretty similar to the Battlemasters gaining 1 superiority die at the start of combats.)

I feel like these three things would definitely make a few more people want to play this subclass. It reinforces the idea that you can do well on your own but are BETTER in a group. (It also has points over BM by adding damage and not having to sacrifice any of your own attacks, just some resources you'd use anyways.)

I don't like it because I don't want to play a class that is already so simplified and stripped down. There is the Champion to fulfil the niche. Every single other subclass in the game gives you additional options to play around so the PDK just doing the same thing as a subclassless fighter is not the best thing in my eyes

[eunwoler]

The current PDK's support for teammates comes in 3 forms
- A heal
- An extra attack
- A save reroll

I think these 3 are fine. But let the PDK choose between these things from the getgo. Battle cries keying off of short rest like other martial archetypes

If people really want to keep the existing PDK style of activating the subclass features off of core features just keep that as an option.

Maybe something like..

Level 10 - Actions before Words/Inspiring Action
When you expend a use of Second Wind, Action Surge or Indomitable, you can use the respective Battle Cry/Warcry/Shout etc as part of the same action.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: This Purple Dragon Knight is dead and buried.