Lets make a Warlock

[sithlordnergal]

So, I'm not a big fan of warlocks. Honestly, my only issue with them is that they lack resources to do much of anything outside of Eldritch Blast. Sure, they get short rest recharge slots, but they get so few slots that you can't really do anything outside of Hex or other spells that last all day. As for the invocations, you get too few of them as well. If you intend to be optimized, you're stuck picking the same invocations, which lead to a sort of boring character that does nothing but fire EB.

Therefore, I plan on making a Tome Warlock. I want to see if maybe I've misjudged the Warlock. I mean, most people who talk to me about them say I am wrong about their lack of resources and such. So I feel I may be missing something. So, I'd like some help optimizing a non-multiclassed Warlock.

This is for Adventures League play, therefore I can only use the PHB + Xanathar's. Here's what I have so far:

Race: Human Variant

Feat: Unsure

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Unsure

Spells: Hex, Unsure

Patron: Leaning towards Great Old One, but I'm open for suggestions.

[Corran]

Well, I don't really like warlocks that much either, but one thing I like about them is that 15th level invocation that allows alter self at will. Thus, slightly to a lesser extent, I like how you can combine mask of many faces and the actor feat (mostly for being able to change your voice, which alter self allows but which disguise self/ mask of may faces does not allow) for a somewhat worse but much lower level version of this. Having to invest in a feat (ie in actor) hurts a bit (less if you play a race with a +2 to charisma I would assume), but on the bright side you can toss on top of it all the cantrip friends (which wouldn't work with the alter self version, since they both use concentration), which has some funny rp consequences that you can direct at anyone you can impersonate well by using mask of many faces + actor (or at the very least you would be able to avoid the bad consequences of friends if you be careful not to use that disguise again).

So yeah, personally I would go for mask of many faces + actor feat + friends. Not sure if it's optimized, but the synergy of these features can be used to great and/or funny effect.

[Mercurias]

For the feat, why not pick Magic Initiate and snag something from the Bard or Sorceror Spell lists? They would go off of your casting stat. Vicious Mockery might not let you blast big damage, but giving enemies disadvantage on a cantrips Ismaili nothing to sneeze at. Even better, with the added cantrips from being a Tomelock you’ll be looking at something like 7 cantrips by level 3.

Spell Sniper would also be an excellent fit if you want to keep at range.

For invocations, Agonizing Blast and EB are pretty obvious selections, but you could also pick up the Darkness spell and use the Devil’s Sight invocation to Blast from a sphere of total blackness.

I’m hardly a god-King of optimizing, but maybe some of these ideas could end up being helpful? Hope so!

[Malifice]

Remember; Hex lasts 1-24 hours (depending on your level when you cast it).

Starting from 5th level (with 3rd level slots) it should only be using 1 slot for the day, and will be lasting the whole day (and through several short rests).

If you're getting the median of [6-8 encounters, and 2-3 short rests] per long rest, that adds up to 7 slots/ long rest (from 2nd to 10th), or 1 slot per encounter, plus cantrips and at will invocations.

[SpanielBear]

So, I'm not a big fan of warlocks. Honestly, my only issue with them is that they lack resources to do much of anything outside of Eldritch Blast. Sure, they get short rest recharge slots, but they get so few slots that you can't really do anything outside of Hex or other spells that last all day. As for the invocations, you get too few of them as well. If you intend to be optimized, you're stuck picking the same invocations, which lead to a sort of boring character that does nothing but fire EB.

Therefore, I plan on making a Tome Warlock. I want to see if maybe I've misjudged the Warlock. I mean, most people who talk to me about them say I am wrong about their lack of resources and such. So I feel I may be missing something. So, I'd like some help optimizing a non-multiclassed Warlock.

This is for Adventures League play, therefore I can only use the PHB + Xanathar's. Here's what I have so far:

Race: Human Variant

Feat: Unsure

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Unsure

Spells: Hex, Unsure

Patron: Leaning towards Great Old One, but I'm open for suggestions.


So, I may not be able to optimize the best, but I have spent the last year playing a pure warlock so I can at least share what I've done with it and why I've stuck with the class.

Firstly, the build (where he is now, level 5):

GOO Tomelock

V. Human. S8 D14 C10 I12 W14 C18

Feat: Spell Sniper

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Chill Touch (Spell Sniper), Mage Hand, Vine Whip (Tome), Vicious Mockery (Tome) Mending (Tome)

Spells: Hex, Armour of Agathys, Suggestion, Detect Thoughts, Counterspell, Fly, Identify (Tome), Comprehend Languages (Tome)

Invocations: Repelling Blast, Eldritch Sight, Book of Ancient Secrets.

With all that, here's my thoughts on playing the warlock:


A) I really should have switched around the intelligence and constitution scores, if not the wisdom.constitution. It works for roleplay and it's fine, but man does it hurt. Learn from my obvious mistakes!

B) A warlock works in three, possible four ways. First, as an eldritch blast spammer. Effective but pretty dull. Second as a hexblade, because yeah we all know they work. But the more interesting options, for me, is either playing as a bard-like bag of interesting tricks, or somewhat related "what does my party need me to be?" The warlock, especially the tomelock, is really freaking versatile. Every ritual, any cantrips, change spells on level up- you're a freaking multi-tool.

C) Support your party. Be clever. The party I play in has no other arcane casters, and does a lot of melee damage. So my warlock is designed to make sure the enemy is pulled, pushed, disadvantaged, un-healed and disorientated throughout a combat. I have loads of choices, and almost none of them involve casting my spells necessarily (except I still regularly find myself casting A of A because, 10 con, squishy as heck). You don't have to do damage to be a valuable player, you just need to make sure you are helping damage to happen.

D) Spells and invocations are a sometimes food. You are not going to be casting spells like other classes, they are a very finite resource for you- in combat. Out of combat is a lot more forgiving, and warlocks make great faces or scouts. But in combat, spells are like sauce, not the main meal.

E) Finally, buy into your fluff. Warlocks are really fun to roleplay- you have your patron, your pact, your spooky tricks- I think even in Adventurers League, you'll have more fun if you up the narrative and aesthetics of the class. Like, it's one thing to cast eldritch blast, another to have tentacles rip through realities and batter your enemies into submission.


So yeah, those are my thoughts. TL,DR- Versatility and at-will powers are your friends. Short rests are great, but do everything you can to make sure you aren't bored or panicking if they don't happen.

[Nhorianscum]

I'm leaning feylock here for a BC style just for the tier 1.

Crazy incoming:

We'll be delaying eldrich blast to level 4, along with that sort of invocation and the trademark hex. At this point we're stating up for BC with a 16 in dex and cha so we can just use a junk weapon for comparable damage. At 4 EB is a clear winner and at 5 EBx2+hex is a knockout, so we want that. Just not yet.

With feylock we can safely drop hex to the wayside until level 5 and pull sleep+utility or farie fire to combine with our level 1 ability for 2/short rest strong BC effects at 1. With minor illusion+predidigitation/friends we're not running short on creative user or flavor.

At 2 we can safely take perma mage armor and another nice utility invocation to back up our now 3/short (or 9/day) control. We are now a fully fledged competent BC and will remain so all game long.

At 3 we're sliding into tome for 3 cantrips of our choice and we're taking ritual casting over our junk invocation. Second level spells are up so we're snagging that tastey PForce and we're killing a first level spell for a decent aoe in shatter. We now have a pet owl.

At 4th we pick up EBlast, and grab another decent scaling 2nd ,+2 cha means that even unboosted EBlast is... alright. We're killing something for hex here.

5th: goodbye other level 1 BC, hello plant growth and hypnotic pattern. Hello agonizing blast. Hello repelling blast (we can live without mage armor with misty escape coming at 6th). At this point we're still very much a BC, but we've circled back and snagged the classic warlock goodies.

From 6 onwards we're scaling as a pure BC.

Feat of choice at level 1 here is probably res (con), Cha+2, cha+2, lucky, Alert, whocaresthiscomesat19.

Is it damage OP in tier 1? Eh, not really? The margin of loss is in the single digits though. We can live with that.

GOOlock can pull a similar shtic but is much more RP/single target focused until cl7.

[Zaltman]

+1 SpanielBear. Play for blaster and versatility. Spell sniper is awesome not for the range, but for being able to hit frontline foes from the back of the party with your EB.

For even more versatility, you might want to consider Hexblade. All the versatility of Tome, but now better AC, better weapon damage and can wield any non two handed weapon.

[sophontteks]

Ok on your limited splots and hex.
Hex lasts 8-24 hours. You can cast it, short rest, and simply move it to whatever target. You can cast it in the morning and short rest before your fighter even dons his armor. It didn't cost a spell slot, only your concentration, and that's not so bad when you give some invocations that, say, cause damage equal to your cha to the hexed target and everyone around them as a bonus action each turn.

But why stop there?

You already cast hex. Moving it to a new target doesn't require you to chant, or wave a wand around. Its an invisible effect just like subtle spell. So is that AOE damage I mentioned earlier. OK, well, now you are doing this while you are disguised as one of the enemy. Oh, sure they may know something isn't right, but it will take a miracle to tell you are the cause. And you are dealing 30-50 damage per minute to multiple people while they play detective. That's like Sherlock Holmes solving a case while suffocating.

And it'll be tough to discover you, espesially since...

-Your invisible familiar scouted the area ahead of time, told you their habits, their weaknesses, who's leading, where their supplies are etc.
-You can disguise yourself at will. How's that for limited spells?
-Hex reduces their ability check to find you out.
-Your naturally good at charisma-based skills
-And you took actor.

And heck lets sprinkle some more on with Sign of Ill Omen
-Doesn't require concentration once you are level 7 (when I recommend taking it.)
-Lasts up to 8 hours by the time you are level 7.
-Is a touch spell so your familiar can deliver it.
-You can choose what the curse does.

So...
You cast bestow curse out of sight, your invisible familiar delivers it, and here's the great part. Delivering a spell doesn't break their invisibility! And again you can deal aoe damage to them without them knowing you are the cause as long as you are near them, but now you don't need to concentrate and the effect can be much more significant. Go nuts.


Warlocks are about combining invocations and abilities to create powerful builds. This is just one example of many, many ridiculous things a warlock can do. OR you can try to play a wannabe wizard and be sorely disappointed.

[sithlordnergal]

Question about Hex: Doesn't it end if you don't have a viable target to put it on? I think I remember there being some discourse about that. Also, seeing as this is an AL character who will only be doing modules for the most part, would Hex still be worth it. I think it would be, as it would still last an entire module. I just wouldn't be able to do the fun stuff like cast it prior to an adventure.

As for Hexblade, I currently have a Hexblade in a homebrew campaign. So far it has been...less then impressive. But part of that is low level mixed with my Hexblade having to be the frontline fighter and tank. Only way I've survived so far is by casting nothing but Armor of Agathys.

[Solusek]

Question about Hex: Doesn't it end if you don't have a viable target to put it on? I think I remember there being some discourse about that. Also, seeing as this is an AL character who will only be doing modules for the most part, would Hex still be worth it. I think it would be, as it would still last an entire module. I just wouldn't be able to do the fun stuff like cast it prior to an adventure.

As for Hexblade, I currently have a Hexblade in a homebrew campaign. So far it has been...less then impressive. But part of that is low level mixed with my Hexblade having to be the frontline fighter and tank. Only way I've survived so far is by casting nothing but Armor of Agathys.

Pretty sure you can move it to a new target as a bonus action any time after the previous target has died. - "If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a turn of yours to curse a new creature."

I probably wouldn't take the hex spell on any Warlocks, though. Your spell slots are too limited. Doing an extra +1d6 damage at the cost of your concentration and a spell slot is rough. I would rather use my spell slots for something else. Spells are awesome. They let you do things no one else can. Do you really want to use that power just to be doing a bit more damage each attack?

Hexblade is probably the strongest Warlock subclass. You don't even have to be a melee character. Hexblade makes a great eldritch blast lock who never plans on holding a sword in his life. It sounds like your specific group makeup is whats making that character feel weak. Hexblade is a striker, not a tank. It would be like complaining that the rogue class sucks because you have to tank with it and spend all your time taking the dodge action just to stay alive. The fact that you even have the ability to kind of tank with medium armor and Armor of Agathys just speaks to the flexibility of the Hexblade.

[sithlordnergal]

Pretty sure you can move it to a new target as a bonus action any time after the previous target has died. - "If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a turn of yours to curse a new creature."

Hexblade is probably the strongest Warlock subclass. You don't even have to be a melee character. Hexblade makes a great eldritch blast lock who never plans on holding a sword in his life. It sounds like your specific group makeup is whats making that character feel weak. Hexblade is a striker, not a tank. It would be like complaining that the rogue class sucks because you have to tank with it and spend all your time taking the dodge action just to stay alive.

Ok, just wanted to make sure I could keep concentrating on it.

And yeah, I'm seeing their potential to be a striker...not as good as Rogues or Paladins, but decent enough. I'm going to keep with the Hexblade to see if it gets better in the homebrew.

[Malifice]

Ive exlusively played Warlocks to date.

Melee warlocks at that (initially Fiend locks with a splash of Fighter, but recently Hexblades).

Warcaster or Resilent Con is a great way to ensure Hex stays up all day (saving precious spell slots).

[Malifice]

Question about Hex: Doesn't it end if you don't have a viable target to put it on? I think I remember there being some discourse about that. Also, seeing as this is an AL character who will only be doing modules for the most part, would Hex still be worth it. I think it would be, as it would still last an entire module. I just wouldn't be able to do the fun stuff like cast it prior to an adventure.

As for Hexblade, I currently have a Hexblade in a homebrew campaign. So far it has been...less then impressive. But part of that is low level mixed with my Hexblade having to be the frontline fighter and tank. Only way I've survived so far is by casting nothing but Armor of Agathys.

As long as youre still concentrating on it you can use a bonus action on any subsequent turn (even one an hour later) to place it on someone else.

You cast it on round 1 of the first encounter in a day, and it stays up while you concentrate on it (over short rests if its duration is long enough).

That lets you recover the slot over the short rest while you concentrate on the spell.

[sophontteks]

Hex is great if you build around it, not so much if you don't. There are so many other ways to play. My only complaint with what sithlord said is he said hex costs a spell slot. You cast hex on a rat, kill it, and short rest your slot back. Free spell.

My undying warlock (a weak archtype but I'm playing CoS so its not that bad.) He uses non-contration spells for the most part. Bestow curse, and blindness-deafness are two amazing cc spells that don't require concentration. But to be worth it my character is very "all-in" with his strategy. Its his focus, for sure.

And thats how warlocks should be IMO. You take an idea and you seek to abuse it as much as possible. Even with disguise self. I will disguise myself as a fighter when walking around, and make myself shorter and skinnier when I want to hide. I'm always using it in one way or another.

I haven't made a build around it, but warlocks can cast silent image at-will too. That spell has so much more utility when you can always have an illusion moving about with you.

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, I'm thinking I'll make my build around an invisible familiar. That does seem pretty darn effective. Though I'll need to go Pact of the Chain in order to get a familiar that can turn itself invisible, since unless you're Pact of the Chain the only Familiars you can get are bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, Lizard, Octopus, owl, Poisonous Snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, Sea Horse, Spider, or Weasel.

That said...just how many short rests are those of you playing Warlocks getting? O_o I hardly ever see modules let you take short rests outside of Epic Events, and you only get one short rest in those. Even in Hardcovers, my DMs don't really hand out tons and tons of short rests. Usually we get a short rest after 3 to 4 encounters, then we continue on. Stuff like killing a rat to start Hex, then taking a Short Rest to instantly recover the slot would never fly...never should fly with a DM either.

[Malifice]

That said...just how many short rests are those of you playing Warlocks getting? O_o I hardly ever see modules let you take short rests outside of Epic Events, and you only get one short rest in those. Even in Hardcovers, my DMs don't really hand out tons and tons of short rests. Usually we get a short rest after 3 to 4 encounters, then we continue on. Stuff like killing a rat to start Hex, then taking a Short Rest to instantly recover the slot would never fly...never should fly with a DM either.

2-3 short rests per long rest is the average.

2-3 encounters per short rest is also around average.

And yeah, the 'bag o rats' thing is very DM dependent. I'd throw a book at you for suggesting it, but YMMV.

It's not really needed. 1 casting of Hex as a bonus action should (barring dropping concentration) last the whole days encounters in a normal dungeon environment from 3rd level onwards.

The spell stays up during rests (not long rests if you have to sleep though) and you get the slot back (so after your 1st short rest, you get back all expended slots - usually 2 from 2nd to 10th level - and you're still concentrating on Hex).

Hex only becomes a slot drain when you get your concentration knocked out of you. I strongly recommend Warcaster or Resilent [Con] - or both - on a Warlock.

[Mr.Spastic]

That said...just how many short rests are those of you playing Warlocks getting? O_o I hardly ever see modules let you take short rests outside of Epic Events, and you only get one short rest in those. Even in Hardcovers, my DMs don't really hand out tons and tons of short rests. Usually we get a short rest after 3 to 4 encounters, then we continue on. Stuff like killing a rat to start Hex, then taking a Short Rest to instantly recover the slot would never fly...never should fly with a DM either.

It's less the DM handing out a short rest then a player saying "Why can't I have a short rest now?" As a DM this never really bothered me because logically it makes sense. If their not in an encounter or and can justify resting, I don't see any reason to say no. As a note, at level 1 this wont work.

Some tips for Warlock though:

1) EB is your friend. I get that every warlock takes Eldritch Blast, but so does every other caster if given the choice. However the warlock class is built around EB so if you want to optimize abuse that. Paired with Hex and Invocations(which ones you pick make it unique to you apart from Agonizing Blast) it can become a great damage dealer and control spell. My favorite is the one that lowers movement speed.

2) Everything else is just versatility. To put it simply, having two or three EB invocations already makes you optimimized for combat. You can already out damage a fighter with one spell slot, one cantrip, and one invocation, the rest is more to round out the niche areas.

3) Resilient con and Warcaster are top priority feats.

Less formal tips:

1) Hexblade is the best in combat as Hexblades curse works with EB. Better armor and shield and better damage? Sign me up. Note: Casting EB outpaces using a weapon for basically the whole class unless the weapon is magical. Also, why use a sword when you could stand 120 feet away?

2) Tome gives the most versatility as a Boon. Chain gives a better scout. Blade is only good when you are trying for melee and play a Hexblade.

3) Most of the Invocations that allow you cast a spell using a Spell slot are not worth it. This is more of an actual tip but the only good one is Conjure Elemental. The best invocations either give at will abilities or boost EB.

[Citan]

So, I'm not a big fan of warlocks. Honestly, my only issue with them is that they lack resources to do much of anything outside of Eldritch Blast. Sure, they get short rest recharge slots, but they get so few slots that you can't really do anything outside of Hex or other spells that last all day. As for the invocations, you get too few of them as well. If you intend to be optimized, you're stuck picking the same invocations, which lead to a sort of boring character that does nothing but fire EB.

Therefore, I plan on making a Tome Warlock. I want to see if maybe I've misjudged the Warlock. I mean, most people who talk to me about them say I am wrong about their lack of resources and such. So I feel I may be missing something. So, I'd like some help optimizing a non-multiclassed Warlock.

This is for Adventures League play, therefore I can only use the PHB + Xanathar's. Here's what I have so far:

Race: Human Variant

Feat: Unsure

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Unsure

Spells: Hex, Unsure

Patron: Leaning towards Great Old One, but I'm open for suggestions.
Hey, hi! ;)

Considering our recent exchange in another thread, I feel like I may have some responsibility in you opening up this thread. :smallbiggrin: Also, you are very right not to take anything anyone (me in particular ^) say at front face value, so I'll be glad to suggest a few things for you.

So then you'll have full power to say to me my ideas weren't enough, with prime-hand experiences. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Unfortunately though, it will have to wait for tonight or tomorrow. My break is over and my plate is much (over)loaded. :)

[jdolch]

To me Eldritch Blast Spammer (+agonizing blast and maybe +repelling blast) goes hand in hand with all the rest. It takes care of the combat numbers so you can spend the rest of your resources on versatility.

[sophontteks]

Spastic pretty much nailed it. Short rests are not a thing DMs hand out. You are the one that decides when you short rest. The most the DM will do is tell you its a bad idea, or hint that the place you are at looks safe.

If you want to maximize your short resting I came up with an idea for my warlock where he meditates during periods of downtime. When the players are bickering over something, solving something, searching, planning, preparing, eating, etc. I say that my warlock begins meditating. If an hour passes in game he gets his spells back. If not, no harm done. Even in time-sensitive situations an hour is not long, and the activities players do between fights can easily eat that hour up.

On chain vs. tome.

Tome is the best in a vaccume.
You get ritual spells, cantrips, and you can get a normal familiar. This fills in so much. You can get the awsome guidance cantrip, cast many more free spells, and you still get some of the chains power with a regular familiar. But tome gets a lot weaker if other party members can already fill these gaps. If someone has guidance already, they can just cast it for you. If someone is already a ritual caster, they can take those ritual spells.

The big problem I have with tome is that it eats up an invocation for the ritual spells, which really eats up the warlocks versitility elsewhere.

Chain is wholly a unique ability that distinguishes a warlock from other casters. Its not strong on paper, but intelligent, invisibile familiars can be dang useful. Imps even have insight and social skills.

[Digimike]

Hexblade (blade pact eventually) + Battlemaster work nicely together. Start as a level 1 fighter for profiency in con saves.

Goal will be 3 fighter and the rest into hexblade.

You'll still be a capable blaster since EB is based on character level, but you'll be really good in mele too. Grab polearm master and great weapon fighting as you level.

[SpanielBear]

Hexblade (blade pact eventually) + Battlemaster work nicely together. Start as a level 1 fighter for profiency in con saves.

Goal will be 3 fighter and the rest into hexblade.

You'll still be a capable blaster since EB is based on character level, but you'll be really good in mele too. Grab polearm master and great weapon fighting as you level.

Yes, we know multi-classing anything-lock is strong, because of eldritch blast. The point of this thread is (once again because today ends in a Y) to try and hash out what makes and effective warlock on its own. Or, alternatively, whether that’s impossible and playing straight warlock is an excercise in futility.

Your answer is not wrong, it just doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

[Ganders]

Tomelock is a different beast than other classes. If you judge a tomelock solely by combat ability, it won't shine. Especially because your main, class-defining feature is extra cantrips and rituals. Rituals are a non-combat effect, not just because they take ten minutes to cast but also because spells are chosen for a ritual tag specifically because of their non-combat usefulness. So what you're really optimizing for is the non-combat side of things. Possibly the exploration pillar, but also the social pillar, especially if you manage to get Persuasion proficiency.

Eldritch Blast is great, but only at higher level, with invocation support. First of all, if you never have any encounters that begin over 100 feet from the enemy then the extra range doesnt matter much. At level 1 in particular other cantrips may be better because you don't have Agonizing Blast yet. At level 3 EB still isn't best because (Shillelagh plus a bonus action attack for dual wielding) does more damage than (EB with AB). (And if you do have AB and Book as your only invocations, then you don't have ANY other good invocations such as Devil's Sight or unlimited use of a first level spell). This being AL, you can take advantage of Shillelagh and/or Sacred Flame at level 3 and then redesign it away later if you like. If nothing else, that will help delay the alleged boredom of using EB over and over again. But even if you don't do that, it's perfectly fine to take EB at level 4 instead of level 1.

Some peculiar things about Tomelock to keep in mind if you want to give it a fair shake:

1. Tomelocks have more and better cantrips than other single class. Cantrips are free, spells use spell slots (of which you have very few). If you ever find yourself, for any reason, using spells more often than cantrips, you might be doing something wrong.

2. Tomelocks are ritual specialists. If you ever find yourself using spells more often than rituals, you might be doing something wrong. Also, you will definitely have a familiar.

3. You don't need to be the party face or group leader. But you do need to decide when to take short rests. That doesn't necessarily mean everyone else takes a short rest at the same time, it can mean multitasking instead. Let the other party members get all the 'search the bodies', 'check for traps', 'search for secret doors', 'question the NPCs' action, while you're napping or spending ten minutes on a ritual.

4. Rituals are expensive to record. Inks cost more money (and use more downtime) than full plate armor. Plan accordingly.

5. You are highly dependent on your DMs ot make rituals available. Wizard spellbooks and spell scrolls should NOT be the only sources. Ritual books (from the Ritual Caster feat) should be more common, and less jealously guarded, than spellbooks. Every caster should be capable of writing down the steps to a ritual they know (in a nonmagical way, not a spell scroll). Every temple everywhere should have some sort of written description of their religious ceremonies. If this isn't the case, you won't be able to acquire most-or-all of the rituals and your core ability, at the very heart of what your subclass is, will be quite diminished.

6. If you use Hex and bag-of-rats isn't allowed, you need to find out exactly what IS allowed. Are you allowed to cast it on party members, stab them, and then use a healer's kit? Are you allowed to cast it on some farmer's cow and then murder it? Are you allowed to cast it on a shopkeep and then knock him down to 0 hp without killing him? Seriously, it's perfectly fine for any AL DM to rule against RAW on this, but he needs to have a well-defined houserule in its place.

[LudicSavant]

So, I'm not a big fan of warlocks. Honestly, my only issue with them is that they lack resources to do much of anything outside of Eldritch Blast.

Here's a build folks liked from another thread, which demonstrates how a Warlock can fill a lot of roles at the same time.

Note that this wasn't made for AL (so it includes GFB/BB on top of Xanathar's/PHB), but you might still find it helpful.



The party is Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Warlock. As warlock, you can:
* be a primary healer via celestial patron
* be a melee damage via hexblade
* be a ritual caster via Tome
* be a diplomat, spy, impersonator, or thief
* serve as secondary or primary controller (eldritch blast invocations and utility spells)
* be the magic detector, or other weird things a warlock does best
* be the best archer ever

And most of those roles aren't exclusive.
Just to emphasize your point further...

I see your most, and raise you all! :smallsmile:

Celestial Generalist
https://i.postimg.cc/5211V7NS/radiant-cleric-of-pelor-by-grandanvil.jpg
VHuman Celestial Tomelock 12
20 Cha / 16 Dex / 16 Con
Moderately Armored (+1 Dex) / +4 Cha (ASIs) / War Caster

Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Shillelagh, Shape Water (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481560-Creative-Cantrips-Shape-Water), Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame (Yes, they know 9 Cantrips; 4 base, 2 Celestial, 3 Tome).

Spells: Cure Wounds, Greater Restoration, Revivify, Hellish Rebuke, Synaptic Static, Thunder Step, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Armor of Agathys, Hold Monster, Misty Step, Mass Suggestion

Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets, Eldritch Sight, Mask of Many Faces, Maddening Hex


Let's go down the checklist!

HEALER? You've got Healing Light (which is like 13 Healing Words a day, or a lesser number of bonus action burst heals), the various status-removal spells, and Revivify. That's pretty much all the important bases. You also can take advantage of your short-rest recharge healing to make the party's breaks more efficient.

DIPLOMAT/SPY/IMPERSONATOR? You have 20 Charisma, the proper proficiencies, Guidance, and Disguise Self at-will (which doesn't even use your Concentration, so you're totally using it in dungeon situations too to surprise or confuse people). Oh, and Mass Suggestion.

THIEF? You can teleport, impersonate easily, have 16 Dex + proficiency in the proper skills, and are the magic detector (I find this comes up a lot when doing second story work). There are also some fun thievery tricks you can do with Shape Water and Mage Hand.

MAGIC DETECTOR? Yep, you've got Eldritch Sight.

RITUAL CASTER? Yep, you've got access to every class's rituals from Book of Ancient Secrets.

ARCHER? You've got a 24-hour Hex and an Eldritch Blast that does 3d10+3d6+15, plus a 30 foot knockback (with no size limit, unlike most knockbacks), and Maddening Hex for a guaranteed-hit 5 damage AoE on top of that. You can just dish out that 47 damage all day. And have fun playing pinball (knock enemy into another enemy, then use the Maddening Hex AoE).

MELEE? You have the AC of a dex fighter, a bonus action heal better than Second Wind, Armor of Agathys, Shillelagh, and Green-Flame Blade that gets buffed by Radiant Soul and your 24-hour Hex. Oh, and War Caster, so if they try to move past you, they get a Booming Blade OA for 6d8+5 (or perhaps something spending an actual spell slot). You also get 16 temp hp every short rest from Celestial Resilience (and your teammates get some too). And if somehow they get through all of that and you need to get out of dodge, you can use Thunder Step to damage them, get out, and rescue a teammate while you're at it!

Someone attacking you in melee could take 25 damage per melee hit from AoA, then take 6d10+5 (38) from Hellish Rebuke, then get whacked by Green-Flame Blade for 3d8+1d6+10 (27) and another 3d8+5 (18.5) to the person standing next to them. Oh, and you have a familiar, so you can make that attack with Advantage.

CONTROLLER? You've got Hold Monster, Synaptic Static, Hypnotic Pattern, Mass Suggestion, and 30 foot knockback on your Eldritch Blast. Oh, and moving past you in melee provokes nasty War Caster OAs.

[Solusek]

Here's a build folks liked from another thread, which demonstrates how a Warlock can fill a lot of roles at the same time.

Note that this wasn't made for AL (so it includes GFB/BB on top of Xanathar's/PHB), but you might still find it helpful.

Wow, I really like this build! Generalist characters who can be effective during any of the pillars of play are my favorite. I think I like this build even better than my current Hexblade character.

[XmonkTad]

So yeah, personally I would go for mask of many faces + actor feat + friends. Not sure if it's optimized, but the synergy of these features can be used to great and/or funny effect.

I like this idea. My party right now lacks a face and we're feeling it dearly. I highly recommend the utility brought about by having advantage on mimicking someone else, then getting advantage on all other charisma checks, then ceasing to look like that person when they turn hostile. Also, a lot of this is available at level 1, but gets much better at level 2.

[Max_Killjoy]

My biggest disappointment regarding the Warlock is that all those interesting mechanics are locked behind the character being a cosmic lackey, and behind the Charisma stat.

[SpanielBear]

My biggest disappointment regarding the Warlock is that all those interesting mechanics are locked behind the character being a cosmic lackey, and behind the Charisma stat.

I mean cosmic lackey depends very much on your background. No reason a warlock can't be unwilling, rebellious or even unwitting.

And I am genuinely curious how a warlock is "locked" behind charisma when a) bards and sorcerers share that particular stat (and none of the three are particularly MAD), and b) being a face character is something warlocks can do exceptionally well, what with mask of many faces etc, so it's hardly a wasted stat. I mean I'm not denying that charisma is key, but is that really a barrier? Might as well call out wizards for needing intelligence.

[Max_Killjoy]

I mean cosmic lackey depends very much on your background. No reason a warlock can't be unwilling, rebellious or even unwitting.

And I am genuinely curious how a warlock is "locked" behind charisma when a) bards and sorcerers share that particular stat (and none of the three are particularly MAD), and b) being a face character is something warlocks can do exceptionally well, what with mask of many faces etc, so it's hardly a wasted stat. I mean I'm not denying that charisma is key, but is that really a barrier? Might as well call out wizards for needing intelligence.

If you're not building a character intended to be charming / personable...

I've read some say that as DM they allow INT-based warlocks instead.

But the lackey thing is more the general problem that if you're not building a character whose power is externally provided by another entity, you're locked out of using those mechanics... again, unless you have an understanding DM. Even Paladins can be purely powered by their oath, and Clerics can powered by their devotion to an idea or cause, IIRC.

[SpanielBear]

If you're not building a character intended to be charming / personable...

I've read some say that as DM they allow INT-based warlocks instead.

That’s not an unreasonable house-rule, but I still don’t see it being a deal breaker. If it’s fluff that’s the problem, I’ve seen charisma referred to as presence rather than necessarily charm- intimidation is a CHA skill after all.

Why do you find it particularly egregious with warlocks and not sorcerers?

Edit: missed the second part of your post. Sure, that’s fair if it’s specifically the ‘outside entity’ that bothers you. But in terms of gameplay and needing to act in x fashion to keep to your pact, well that’s true of clerics and paladins even if they just follow an ideal. Furthermore, as a warlock RAW there’s no consequence to breaking a pact, so technically they are more free than either of the other classes (although for myself that does feel odd, and I wouldn’t want to personally play it that way).

[Malifice]

If you're not building a character intended to be charming / personable...



Plenty of high charisma critters that are neither charming or personable.

Just like a high strength doesnt mean you're built like a power lifter, having a high charisma might mean that you're simply a manipulative bastard (which fits the theme of Warlocks just fine).

[cyberfunkr]

My primary character is a Warlock, so I kind of like them. But I cannot figure out the draw to keeping Hex after say level 5 or 6.

Let's say you do the "cast Hex then short rest" so you're not losing a spell slot. To me that's a non-issue. My issues are:

1) It's a concentration spell! Yes you can concentrate on it 1, 8, or even 24 hours. But that also means during that time you CAN'T CAST ANY OTHER CONCENTRATION SPELLS for the duration! And there is a very finite number of spells you can cast that won't take over your concentration. Luckily we have Eldritch Blast. I think that's why so many people burn out on Warlocks. All they can do is cast Hex then spam one spell.

2) There is no point to the "The target has disadvantage on ability checks" part of the spell. Consider, 99.999% of all spells a Warlock would cast in combat require saving throws, not ability checks. So in combat, it's a pointless ability. Out of combat, it's really only good for about 5 minutes. Consider, you want to talk your way past a guard so you hex them so they have disadvantage against your persuasion check. Great, you said pretty please and it worked so you move on to the next person to talk to... but you can't transfer the hex to the new person until "the [previous] target drops to 0 hit points". So the person you hexed to improve your odds of getting past without combat needs to die before you can transfer the hex.

About the only point I could see using Hex outside of the +1d6 is for grappling; impose disadvantage on either Strength or Dexterity. But even then, no matter which you choose, the victim still has the option to use the non-hexed abilities to break free.

So chose to give up Hex early on so I can concentrate on more important things like invisibility, suggestion, or even Hunger of Hadar

[Malifice]

My primary character is a Warlock, so I kind of like them. But I cannot figure out the draw to keeping Hex after say level 5 or 6.

Let's say you do the "cast Hex then short rest" so you're not losing a spell slot. To me that's a non-issue. My issues are:

1) It's a concentration spell! Yes you can concentrate on it 1, 8, or even 24 hours. But that also means during that time you CAN'T CAST ANY OTHER CONCENTRATION SPELLS for the duration! And there is a very finite number of spells you can cast that won't take over your concentration. Luckily we have Eldritch Blast. I think that's why so many people burn out on Warlocks. All they can do is cast Hex then spam one spell.

2) There is no point to the "The target has disadvantage on ability checks" part of the spell. Consider, 99.999% of all spells a Warlock would cast in combat require saving throws, not ability checks. So in combat, it's a pointless ability. Out of combat, it's really only good for about 5 minutes. Consider, you want to talk your way past a guard so you hex them so they have disadvantage against your persuasion check. Great, you said pretty please and it worked so you move on to the next person to talk to... but you can't transfer the hex to the new person until "the [previous] target drops to 0 hit points". So the person you hexed to improve your odds of getting past without combat needs to die before you can transfer the hex.

About the only point I could see using Hex outside of the +1d6 is for grappling; impose disadvantage on either Strength or Dexterity. But even then, no matter which you choose, the victim still has the option to use the non-hexed abilities to break free.

So chose to give up Hex early on so I can concentrate on more important things like invisibility, suggestion, or even Hunger of Hadar

Hex their wisdom. That's -5 to Passive Perception. Your Rogue will love you.

[SpanielBear]

Hex their wisdom. That's -5 to Passive Perception. Your Rogue will love you.

Well that’s a slice of fried gold I never thought of.

[sophontteks]

Lots of reasons to take hex past 5.

- Maddening hex is a great bonus action AOE with hex.
- Undying and fiend warlocks have strong non-concentration spells.
- It deals 1d6 per bolt, not per turn.
- Has a great rider.
- Can switch targets without re-casting to emulate subtle spell.
- It doesn't cost a spell slot with preparation.

I already wrote about how effective hex can be if you focus on it, so a lot of this is repeat.

Switching targets is not re-casting the spell. It's a very stealthy effect, and giving disadvantage on ability checks is really strong outside of combat. Hex their int so they can't see your disguise, or hex their wis so they can't tell you are lying, hex a performers cha to sabatoge their show, etc.

Maddening hex deals 5 aoe damage as a bonus action. This is already strong on its own. But using it doesn't break stealth, nor invisibility. And just like hex, it doesn't give away that you are the cause of the damage. Maddening hex can cause pure chaos at 50 aoe damage per minute.

Fiend warlocks have great non-concentration spell options. It frees them up for blasting and defensive spells and they still have blindness/deafness, and command for multi-target CC.

1d6 per bolt is solid for its own sake. Its per bolt, and its doubled on a crit. This plus maddening hex plus agonizing blast all adds up to a seriously strong cantrip.

You can cast hex when you wake up, targetting whatever innocent rodent you can find, EB it, and short rest afterwards to get your slots back while having hex ready.

[Citan]

Hey, finally back, later than I should have ;)

So I first thought about suggesting a full build, but there are too many ideas coming.
I'll instead give a few suggestions of focuses.

Versatility.
Obviously, go Tome Pact.
Pick Speak with Animals or Unseen Servant, and Find Familiar obviously. Then poach whatever ritual you may find from allies or loot, especially Silence, Phantom Steed and Leomund's Tiny Hut.

For cantrips, pick Guidance, Shocking Grasp, Thorns Whip IF Dm is lenient otherwise no, Mold Earth, Thaumaturgy, Mage Hand.
For remaining invocations, pick Repelling and either Grasp of Hadar or Lance of Lethargy, then whatever you want although the "Conjure Elementals" and "Polymorph" are strongly suggested. Pick Agonizing after level 8.

For Patron, pick Fiend.
For skills, be proficient in Persuasion, Perception and Stealth at least. If going Half-Elf Prodigy feat for Persuasion Expertise is recommended.

As for spells, pick Suggestion, Command (Patron), Hex, Darkness, Invisibility, Fireball(Patron), Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment or Enemies Abound.
For 6+, Mass Suggestion or Conjure Fey, Forcecage, Demiplane, True Polymorph.

Result (I'm basing evaluation on the premise you will get rituals)? You have...
1. Many out-of-combat tools to...
- help party win social encounters: Guidance, Comprehend Languages, Suggestion, Command, possibly Dreams,
- set up safe camps (Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, Alarm, Magic Mouth, Speak with Animals + Persuasion for free guards to some extent, and possibly later Forbiddance),
- detect or avoid problems (Beast Sense + Speak With Animals, Silence, Commune, Water Walking, keeping up Invisibility all day long while you move slowly -per RAW concentrating is not incompatible with resting, you can travel by carriage, or have someone carry you, or whatever else)
- retrieve information (mainly Detect spells, and aforementioned rituals).

2. In-fight, you have a vast enough array of spells to use depending on situation.
- single or multiple target control to help melee friendlies (push and pull Eldricht Blast).
- heavy AOE as needed with Fireball.
- single target control with high reliability (Banishment/Enemies Abound).
- mass target control with Hypnotic Pattern and/or Command.

Just this toolset is enough to make you useful in most situations and most parties...

Now for more focused characters.

The spy
Let's pick Chain just to be sure (you could achieve most of the same with rituals provided you can get Find Familiar or Beast Sense + Speak With Animals, but let's go for thematic ;)).
Note though that if rituals are easy, Tome nets you Tenser's Floating disk (loot), Unseen Servant (distractions, theft) and Phantom Steed (quick escape) to quote a few tools. Big problem though is all rituals needing verbal components, usually being silent is a key of spying. XD

You'll obviously pick Ritual Caster: Bard to at least get to freecast Comprehend Languages (learn as Warlock spell, write, swap).
You'll also pick the free Disguise Self invocation, as well as Darkness + Devil's Sight combo.
Voice of the Chain Master invocation is an obvious one.
You still may pick Suggestion, as well as Detect Thoughts (GOO) or Calm Emotions and Sleep (Archfey) to help you set up perfect sneak conditions.
Other interesting picks are Bestow Curse invocation (to deliver through familiar), or free Levitate one (go up and down to ease infiltration in places of difficult access, using your -obviously flying- familiar as a point to push yourself away).
The "read all writing" one is mandatory of course.

Idea here is to use and abuse Invisibility or Hex replenishing with short-rest as well as using Misty Step to bypass obstacles by seeing destination through the eyes of your familiar (preferably one that has invisibility or that can take human form). Or you could even pick One With Shadows Invocation, find a place to hide (or create one with Minor Illusion and/or Silent Image and/or Hallucinatory Terrain) then let your familiar take all risks.

For feats, don't bother too much, pick Spell Sniper if you really want an offensive one, otherwise Observant and Keen Mind are primed, with Alert close after and Resilient Constitution.

You'll be extremely efficient at tackling assassination, theft or information gathering mission. Why is that?
With Comprehend Languages you understand any spoken language.
With Observant you can read on lips to "hear" what people say.
With Keen Mind you instantly memorize EVERYTHING you see or hear.
You will drive your DM crazy, and be loved from any pal looking for rituals or any Wizard (much less risky to infiltrate a familiar into a caster's place than yourself, you can just flip pages then take time to write exactly what you saw, even if you don't understand any bit of it).

If you go GOO or pick Dominate Person, the Gaze of Two minds invocation will be helpful to emulate the same kind of power with an actual person.

And once you get level 15, you'll get Arcane Eye and Invisibility at-will, as well as Hold Monster "nearly at will". Pretty neat. :)

The one who locks down

No dice here: whatever pact you pick, it's Archfey.
The basics here are picking Faerie Fire at low level (friends will love you), then Plant Growth ASAP (friends will fall in love with you).
Mix that with the Repelling, Lethargy and Grasp Invocations and you can regularly and reliably lock down entire groups.
Especially combined with Far Step (you can now herd people from sides without sweating) or a Darkness that you move around thanks to a familiar or even just a beast you persuaded to help you (aforementioned combo).

Other fun things to mix it up with are basically any debilitating AOE spell like Enemies Abound (more susceptible to attack creatures close to it if cannot move freely), Slow from Invocations (complete lockdown), Summon Lesser Demons (just discovered this spell, seems fun, same idea), Danse Macabre (same), Sickening Radiance, Wall of Light.

Mixing both is clearly an all-in tactic, so you may not like it since after that you are back to square "cantrips until I-dont-know-when short rest" but it can be definitely powerful.

The ones who always has fuel


Two main approachs.
1. Hexblade, Blade pact, blablabla. (Basically playing a gish).
2. Hexblade, Tome pact, using mainly Conjuration spells from Invocations or spell list (most last one hour, and again, concentration is not breaking rest by RAW, so provided you manage to keep light on activity you can keep summons "permanently").
Resilient: Constitution and Mage Slayer will compliment Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast, then take whatever you like.

Hope all this gave you ideas you'd like to try :)

EDIT: I should really do the things I should and go to bed, but I cannot leave without those few added bits.

HEX
Hex is not (only, nor primarily possibly) a combat spell. It's instead an out-of-combat spell.
Difficult negotiation? Hex Charisma.
Martial pal wants to befriend a local through Strength or Dex contest? Hex relevant physical stat.
Rogue needs to sneak? Hex Wisdom.
A pal would like a Phantasmal Force to stick? Hex Intelligence.
With that said, in fight...
- help Rogue Hide: Hex WIS.
- help PF to stick, same.
- help martial to shove enemies: Hex STR or DEX.

Short rests

As others said, short-rest are not "generously granted on DM whim". He sure can tell you it's risky or otherwise inform you of possibly dire consequences of taking such time, or he can oppositely tell you "it's okay to rest now"...
But you can try and generate them yourself.
I put many ways to do it in the other thread in which Warlock question was briefly tackled.

Obvious way is going Tome and picking the related classic rituals, but those lockdown you (or whole party) in place which is not always ideal.
So, a few other ways...

Safe places:
- Speak With Animals and/or Mold Earth + Silence and/or Conjure Elemental (Earth): dig a safe place underground. Or polymorph a willing creature into a giant flying one to set you (and possibly whole party) on a safe place in high altitude.
- Meld Into Stone: for you only, but widely applicable (pair with Alarm/Magic Mouth/Familiar to avoid bad surprises): then you can catch up with friends on Phantom Steed, knowing their location with Rary's Telepathic Bond or having the improved Familiar (which means Ritual Caster feat to get that one).

Moving rest:
- Speak with Animals: very DM-dependant, but technically you could ask a large beast to carry you.
- Phantom Steed: have it ridden by a friend, with you attached besides/behind.
- Conjuration spells (Invocations or spells): have them carry you.
- Polymorph (Invocation): use it on yourself to make yourself a tiny creature that can be carried by a friend in a pocket or on shoulder.
- Ring of spell storing (DM-dependant): have a familiar cast Tenser's Disk, and ask familiar to advance while you rest on it.

Allies:
- Rope Trick
- Catnap
- Enlarging your familiar so it can carry you.
- Wild Shaping (Moon Druid) or Polymorphing (Transmuter Wizard) into a form that can carry you.

And I probably forgot many other ways. :)
It's not *that* hard to get a short rest unless really hard quests (very hostile environment or strong time pressure). And even then, there are ways to allow at least one or two guys to get a rest. You just need friends willing to help (but if they are not, while being a party in the first place? ^^)