effenhoog
2018-12-18, 01:25 AM
Hello all,
Normally I don't like to clutter up the forums with my personal concerns but I've been somewhat agonizing over my character for an upcoming campaign and I'd really like to bounce some ideas around, maybe get some outside opinions, and generally organize my thoughts a bit. I'll be starting a custom campaign at level 10 with free choice of one magic item of "very rare" or lower rarity. I'd like to take this opportunity to build an archetype that 5e otherwise doesn't really facilitate under normal character building rules: the Strong Punching Man.
Objective: Be a powerful strength-based brawler who can stand in melee and is nearly the ultimate grappler with 7 (STR) + 8 (expertise) for a massive +15 to athletics and advantage on athletics checks while raging, plus hands are always free to grapple and technically no real need to even hold a weapon. To this end, we are using the campaign-granted magic item selection of the Belt of Fire Giant Strength (25 STR) to make the strength-based monk shell actually work without sacrificing too much. I'm not overly concerned with optimization but if I'm doing something unconventional I'd at least like to be good at what I'm trying to do.
The build:
Variant Human (Prodigy: athletics)
10/16/14/8/16/8 OR 10/16/16/8/14/8
Barb 2 (eventual bear totem) Monk 8 (drunken master)
Belt of fire giant strength (25 STR)
Drunken Master lets the character get away without relying as much on WIS while also giving a decent amount of the Mobile feat that we are otherwise giving up by "wasting" the V. Human feat on Prodigy. We're at a d6 martial arts die instead of the d8 a single-classed monk would have, but with 25 STR we effectively have +2 damage and to-hit than a normal 20 DEX monk, and an additional +2 damage if we are raging. Add in extra hit/crit chances from advantage vs prone+grappled foes or reckless attack, and our punches definitely aren't weak.
Totem barbarian feels like the obvious choice for barbarian path considering we are probably dipping at most 4 levels into barb to grab the ASI. Most likely bear, though with evasion in our pocket I could maybe look at some of the other totems. A raging elk monk would be pretty fast and the wolf and eagle have their uses as well.
First two ASI options and their build consequences:
--Option A: 16 DEX 20 CON 14 WIS. Go all-in on the barbarian AC and HP/durability at the expense of Ki save DC.
--Option B: 20 DEX 14 CON 16 WIS. Commit to the monk path for AC and lower con score due to needing dex+wis as high as possible for monk AC, but have great Dex saves with 20 dex + evasion + danger sense (advantage on dex saves to visible traps/spells/effects)
---Option C: 16 DEX 14 CON 20 WIS. Probably a different build (***see below***) using Open Hand knockdowns in conjunction with grappling. Could still be done with drunken master but with the reduced Ki pool stunning strike is a bit less useful than normal, and to some degree a good grapple+prone can yield somewhat similar results.
---Probably not an option: raising both CON and WIS to 18+ (or planning to). Raising both CON and WIS means a lower AC no matter which unarmored AC you use since DEX is ignored
***Alternate build: Way of the Open Hand
Option C: 16 DEX 14 CON 20 WIS
Going full WIS lets us make better use of our Ki saves, normally that would mostly just be stunning strike but Open Hand optimizes the grapple flowchart. Normally if you want the target grappled+prone, you would spend your whole attack action to grapple and then shove them prone, then bonus action punch (or flurry for a Ki). With open hand, you can grapple, punch, then bonus action flurry for two hits and knock them prone with a Ki save of 17. It's probably easier to make the save than it is to beat your +15 athletics but it's an overall more efficient package, and puts stunning strike back on the table as well.
Some other alternate build options:
A more straightforward option might be to take the Mobile feat, probably go Open Hand and just dip one single level or two into rogue for athletics expertise. We lose the resistance and athletics advantage from raging (and have less overall HP) by ditching barb but we can still play a STR-based expert grappler monk with a larger pool of Ki. +15 to athletics is pretty good on its own and combined with the Ki savings that Cunning Action can provide it's a solid build. I'd even be tempted to go barb 4 in the original build and then start into rogue if the campaign went on that long, but the Ki losses from taking barb levels is already pretty painful.
Currently I am leaning more toward Option A (20 CON 14 WIS). Logically my brain tells me it's a mistake as I'm losing out on my Stunning Strike save, but I'm also already giving up a lot of Ki and committing to more of a brawling style: the guy you grapple can still hit you back after all. With 8 Ki and (eventually) 3 rages we have a good amount of resources to manage. The biggest weakness is probably ranged enemies and (potentially) WIS/INT/CHA saves but that's life. I'm also a bit concerned that I'm investing too much into grappling since you can't grapple everything and it isn't always even useful but with the unique opportunity presented I'd really like to try it. I just don't want to be 6 weeks into the campaign and wish I had built it a little differently.
There is also another clause in the campaign prep that says we might receive additional magic items based on how thorough our background is. I'm not relying on this, but Amulet of Health (18 CON) and Staff of Thunder and Lightning (two free Stunning strikes per day at DC 17) are my top picks if it becomes an option.
Thanks to anyone who managed to slog through this and/or can offer any feedback.
Normally I don't like to clutter up the forums with my personal concerns but I've been somewhat agonizing over my character for an upcoming campaign and I'd really like to bounce some ideas around, maybe get some outside opinions, and generally organize my thoughts a bit. I'll be starting a custom campaign at level 10 with free choice of one magic item of "very rare" or lower rarity. I'd like to take this opportunity to build an archetype that 5e otherwise doesn't really facilitate under normal character building rules: the Strong Punching Man.
Objective: Be a powerful strength-based brawler who can stand in melee and is nearly the ultimate grappler with 7 (STR) + 8 (expertise) for a massive +15 to athletics and advantage on athletics checks while raging, plus hands are always free to grapple and technically no real need to even hold a weapon. To this end, we are using the campaign-granted magic item selection of the Belt of Fire Giant Strength (25 STR) to make the strength-based monk shell actually work without sacrificing too much. I'm not overly concerned with optimization but if I'm doing something unconventional I'd at least like to be good at what I'm trying to do.
The build:
Variant Human (Prodigy: athletics)
10/16/14/8/16/8 OR 10/16/16/8/14/8
Barb 2 (eventual bear totem) Monk 8 (drunken master)
Belt of fire giant strength (25 STR)
Drunken Master lets the character get away without relying as much on WIS while also giving a decent amount of the Mobile feat that we are otherwise giving up by "wasting" the V. Human feat on Prodigy. We're at a d6 martial arts die instead of the d8 a single-classed monk would have, but with 25 STR we effectively have +2 damage and to-hit than a normal 20 DEX monk, and an additional +2 damage if we are raging. Add in extra hit/crit chances from advantage vs prone+grappled foes or reckless attack, and our punches definitely aren't weak.
Totem barbarian feels like the obvious choice for barbarian path considering we are probably dipping at most 4 levels into barb to grab the ASI. Most likely bear, though with evasion in our pocket I could maybe look at some of the other totems. A raging elk monk would be pretty fast and the wolf and eagle have their uses as well.
First two ASI options and their build consequences:
--Option A: 16 DEX 20 CON 14 WIS. Go all-in on the barbarian AC and HP/durability at the expense of Ki save DC.
--Option B: 20 DEX 14 CON 16 WIS. Commit to the monk path for AC and lower con score due to needing dex+wis as high as possible for monk AC, but have great Dex saves with 20 dex + evasion + danger sense (advantage on dex saves to visible traps/spells/effects)
---Option C: 16 DEX 14 CON 20 WIS. Probably a different build (***see below***) using Open Hand knockdowns in conjunction with grappling. Could still be done with drunken master but with the reduced Ki pool stunning strike is a bit less useful than normal, and to some degree a good grapple+prone can yield somewhat similar results.
---Probably not an option: raising both CON and WIS to 18+ (or planning to). Raising both CON and WIS means a lower AC no matter which unarmored AC you use since DEX is ignored
***Alternate build: Way of the Open Hand
Option C: 16 DEX 14 CON 20 WIS
Going full WIS lets us make better use of our Ki saves, normally that would mostly just be stunning strike but Open Hand optimizes the grapple flowchart. Normally if you want the target grappled+prone, you would spend your whole attack action to grapple and then shove them prone, then bonus action punch (or flurry for a Ki). With open hand, you can grapple, punch, then bonus action flurry for two hits and knock them prone with a Ki save of 17. It's probably easier to make the save than it is to beat your +15 athletics but it's an overall more efficient package, and puts stunning strike back on the table as well.
Some other alternate build options:
A more straightforward option might be to take the Mobile feat, probably go Open Hand and just dip one single level or two into rogue for athletics expertise. We lose the resistance and athletics advantage from raging (and have less overall HP) by ditching barb but we can still play a STR-based expert grappler monk with a larger pool of Ki. +15 to athletics is pretty good on its own and combined with the Ki savings that Cunning Action can provide it's a solid build. I'd even be tempted to go barb 4 in the original build and then start into rogue if the campaign went on that long, but the Ki losses from taking barb levels is already pretty painful.
Currently I am leaning more toward Option A (20 CON 14 WIS). Logically my brain tells me it's a mistake as I'm losing out on my Stunning Strike save, but I'm also already giving up a lot of Ki and committing to more of a brawling style: the guy you grapple can still hit you back after all. With 8 Ki and (eventually) 3 rages we have a good amount of resources to manage. The biggest weakness is probably ranged enemies and (potentially) WIS/INT/CHA saves but that's life. I'm also a bit concerned that I'm investing too much into grappling since you can't grapple everything and it isn't always even useful but with the unique opportunity presented I'd really like to try it. I just don't want to be 6 weeks into the campaign and wish I had built it a little differently.
There is also another clause in the campaign prep that says we might receive additional magic items based on how thorough our background is. I'm not relying on this, but Amulet of Health (18 CON) and Staff of Thunder and Lightning (two free Stunning strikes per day at DC 17) are my top picks if it becomes an option.
Thanks to anyone who managed to slog through this and/or can offer any feedback.