title of the most broken spell caster goes to.... divination specialist wizard?

[Joe dirt]

let me know if im wrong, but this ability, Expert Divination is the reason.

Expert Divination
Beginning at 6th level, casting divination spells comes so easily to you that it expends only a fraction of your spellcasting efforts. When you cast a divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot. The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast and can’t be higher than 5th level.

plus

Rary's Telepathic Bond (ritual)
You forge a telepathic link among up to eight willing creatures of your choice within range, psychically linking each creature to all the others for the duration. Creatures with Intelligence scores of 2 or less aren’t affected by this spell.

Until the spell ends, the targets can communicated telepathically through the bond whether or not they have a common language. The communication is possible over any distance, though it can’t extend to other planes of existence.

so the reason this combo is broken is because Expert Divination gives one back spells and there is no exception for ritual spells, this means that if you are out of spells, just do a short rest and cast rary's telepathic bond over and over ritually and presto, u have 6 spell slots back. meanwhile the poor warlock got what 2 slots back?

let me know if im wrong on this, thanks

[Malifice]

Read a little closer:

When you cast a divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot

You arent using a spell slot when ritual casting.

[Deox]

let me know if im wrong, but this ability, Expert Divination is the reason.

Expert Divination
Beginning at 6th level, casting divination spells comes so easily to you that it expends only a fraction of your spellcasting efforts. When you cast a divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot. The slot you regain must be of a level lower than the spell you cast and can’t be higher than 5th level.

Bolded for emphasis. This explicitly calls out the requirement to use a spell slot. Using a spell as a ritual, by its very nature, does not consume a spell slot (merely requires having one available).

Additionally, compare this to Abjuration's "Arcane Ward" feature:

"Starting at 2nd level, you can weave magic around yourself for protection. When you cast an abjuration spell of 1st level or higher, you can simultaneously use a strand of the spell's magic to create a magical ward on yourself that lasts until you finish a long rest. The ward has hit points equal to twice your wizard level + your Intelligence modifier. Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead. If this damage reduces the ward to 0 hit points, you take any remaining damage.

While the ward has 0 hit points, it can't absorb damage, but its magic remains. Whenever you cast an abjuration spell of 1st level or higher, the ward regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the spell."

Bolded for relevant parts. Notice the difference? Arcane Ward makes no mention of spell slots while Expert Divination clearly does.

[Joe dirt]

Read a little closer:

When you cast a divination spell of 2nd level or higher using a spell slot

You arent using a spell slot when ritual casting.

ahhh ok, just had a player try it and i didnt catch it... thanks

[Azgeroth]

it is very powerful..

i cast mind spike at max level
i cast mind spike at max lvl -1
i cast mind spike at max lvl -2
i cast mind spike at max lvl -3
etc..
etc.

how many rounds of psychic damage is that with very little resource expenditure, sure it is a diminishing return, but still its AWESOME

[Vogie]

it is very powerful..

i cast mind spike at max level
i cast mind spike at max lvl -1
i cast mind spike at max lvl -2
i cast mind spike at max lvl -3
etc..
etc.

how many rounds of psychic damage is that with very little resource expenditure, sure it is a diminishing return, but still its AWESOME

Just for further clarification, as Expert Divination only allows you to "one expended spell slot", so you'd have to make sure you had already spent those slots. You don't get bonus, extra spell slots if you haven't used your lower level spell slots yet.

Still powerful, though.

[Trustypeaches]

it is very powerful..

i cast mind spike at max level
i cast mind spike at max lvl -1
i cast mind spike at max lvl -2
i cast mind spike at max lvl -3
etc..
etc.

how many rounds of psychic damage is that with very little resource expenditure, sure it is a diminishing return, but still its AWESOMEThe damage output is pretty bad, especially over such a long duration.

It’s efficient, sure, but not really powerful since you’re casting those Mind Spikes instead of other, useful spells. Mind spike even conflicts with other concentration effects.

[PhantomSoul]

it is very powerful..

i cast mind spike at max level
i cast mind spike at max lvl -1
i cast mind spike at max lvl -2
i cast mind spike at max lvl -3
etc..
etc.

how many rounds of psychic damage is that with very little resource expenditure, sure it is a diminishing return, but still its AWESOME

With the caveat that you probably want to do something else with your Concentration, you might want to do it the other way around (increasing levels rather than decreasing) because you need to have Expended a Spell Slot of the Level you want to regain a Slot for. With your order you need to already have Expended a Spell Slot from each of those Levels... but instead, assuming you don't coincidentally/plan to do that, consider:

Ahead of time: Optimally, use Shield, Mage Armor, whatever you feel like from level 1 based on your needs.
Mind Spike: Level 2, 3d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover first-level slot
Mind Spike: Level 3, 4d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover second-level slot.
Mind Spike: Level 4, 5d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover third-level slot.
Mind Spike: Level 5, 6d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover fourth-level slot.
Mind Spike: Level 6, 7d8 Psychic Damage (save for 1/2). Recover fifth-level slot.

Of course, this takes your Concentration and is over the course of five Turns in Combat (improves if you can use Warcaster's pseudo-Opportunity Attack option to accelerate the process). On the bright side, though, a Sixth-Level Slot was worth 25d8 Psychic Damage (Save for half) plus a First-Level Spell of your choosing... but, you know, it's a Sixth-Level Slot and 5 Turns/"Actions". I'd say it's probably more useful to use Expert Divination + Mind Spike just as a tactic when you've already Expended a Slot and you somehow don't have a current (better!) use for your Concentration... which is pretty unlikely overall! But hey, if you can swing frequent Opportunity Attacks it improves noticeably.

[Man_Over_Game]

A lot of people miss this, but Expert Divination isn't for combat casting Divination spells.

It's to allow you to use your Divination spells for RP purposes without hurting your damage output. Ideally, you're scouting with Arcane Eye or Clairvoyance, or using Augury or some other Divination spell in between battles, and then recycling those used slots for other, more combat oriented spells as needed. Mind Spike is an option, sure, but it's pretty niche with low damage.

Diviners were made to allow an RP-focused Wizard that still didn't feel useless in combat, and the way they implemented it was pretty ingenious. It's not even overpowered, since the only combat Divination spell is Mind Spike, and that requires Concentration and has a pretty useless passive ability.

[Particle_Man]

I believe that the Order Cleric has something similar for a different sort of spells (enchantment).

So perhaps an Order Cleric/Diviner Wizard multiclass would be interesting? With a little careful resource management, at level 12 you will simply not run out of spells (I mean you probably wouldn't anyhow, but this character *really* wouldn't). You can even "recycle" cleric divinations and wizard enchantments! Behold the return of the Mystic Theurge! :smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, I think the Diviner Wizard is powerful for a different reason. They get those two d20's that they can just slot in as needed. I mean, it is kinda nice to occasionally know that you have a 16 or higher in your back pocket (or conversely, a 1 to 9 to slip in an enemy's back pocket).

[Blood of Gaea]

it is very powerful..

i cast mind spike at max level
i cast mind spike at max lvl -1
i cast mind spike at max lvl -2
i cast mind spike at max lvl -3
etc..
etc.

how many rounds of psychic damage is that with very little resource expenditure, sure it is a diminishing return, but still its AWESOME
Not only is mind spike bad single target damage, but it also sucks up your concentration with a really bad effect. You'd be much better off just casting your max level spell as something good, then just use cantrips.

[CTurbo]

I think the Abjurer is the most broken spellcaster as most of the best Wizard spells are Abjuration spells anyway, and it's easier to abuse the Arcane Ward via rituals.

[Damon_Tor]

Just for further clarification, as Expert Divination only allows you to "one expended spell slot", so you'd have to make sure you had already spent those slots. You don't get bonus, extra spell slots if you haven't used your lower level spell slots yet.

Which is why you dip sorcerer, The ability to cast a level 5 spell, recover a level 4 slot, then put those sorcery points towards ANOTHER level 5 spell slot is extremely efficient.

For example, a Wizard 8, Sorcerer 2 can cast 16 level 5 divination spells in a day by doing this. The biggest problem is that divination spells aren't that useful, but if you think of your level 5 Mind Spike as your "cantrip" which you can toss around willy-nilly it's not that bad.

[Blood of Gaea]

Which is why you dip sorcerer, The ability to cast a level 5 spell, recover a level 4 slot, then put those sorcery points towards ANOTHER level 5 spell slot is extremely efficient.

For example, a Wizard 8, Sorcerer 2 can cast 16 level 5 divination spells in a day by doing this. The biggest problem is that divination spells aren't that useful, but if you think of your level 5 Mind Spike as your "cantrip" which you can toss around willy-nilly it's not that bad.
A Divination Wizard can toss out a 5th level Mind Spike for 6d8(27) Psychic damage if they fail their Wisdom saving throw.

An Evocation Wizard can cast a 1st level Magic Missile for 3d4+18(25.5) Force damage, with no save, albeit with the weakness of being countered by the shield spell. If you instead went for a 5th level slot, you'd get 7d4+42(59.5) Force damage.

And that's not even either Wizard just casting a decent 5th level spell and plinking away with a cantrip like Toll the Dead or Ray of Frost. Which would generally be the more effective option.

And while this Sorcerer might be able to use more 5th level slots a day than usual, they are also two levels of spell progression behind the other Wizard and needs to sacrifice many actions and spell slots to do this.

I think the divination ability to regain slots is half decent, I just don't think trying to leverage it in combat is the right way to do it.

[Dalebert]

The way I've seen it used seemed decent.

Cast any first level spell--Mage Armor prolly, now you have 8 hours of AC boost.
Cast something like See Invisible. 1st level slot back. Now you have AC boost + see invisible for an hour.
Cast Tongues. 2nd level slot back. Now you have AC boost + see invisible + can communicate with whatever.
Cast Arcane Eye and explore the dungeon. 3rd level slot back.
Cast Legend Lore. 4th level slot back. Learn something useful? Prolly not. DMs won't usually tell you anything useful.
Cast True Seeing. 5th level slot back. Your See invisible was about to run out. Now it's back with icing!

[MeimuHakurei]

We're already over a dozen posts in what makes a Divination Wizard powerful/broken and no mention of Portent yet? Seriously?

[PhantomSoul]

We're already over a dozen posts in what makes a Divination Wizard powerful/broken and no mention of Portent yet? Seriously?

People were responding to the OP itself, but Portent did still sneak in... just not by name!


[...]

Anyhow, I think the Diviner Wizard is powerful for a different reason. They get those two d20's that they can just slot in as needed. I mean, it is kinda nice to occasionally know that you have a 16 or higher in your back pocket (or conversely, a 1 to 9 to slip in an enemy's back pocket).

[Damon_Tor]

We're already over a dozen posts in what makes a Divination Wizard powerful/broken and no mention of Portent yet? Seriously?

I didn't think it needed to be said, really.

[NaughtyTiger]

A lot of people miss this, but Expert Divination isn't for combat casting Divination spells.

it wasn't for combat purposes, cuz PHB combat divination spells weren't a thing. (ignoring foresight cuz i will never get to cast a 9th level spell)

the game evolved a tiny bit. (ie, 1 combat divination spell)

[Particle_Man]

We're already over a dozen posts in what makes a Divination Wizard powerful/broken and no mention of Portent yet? Seriously?


People were responding to the OP itself, but Portent did still sneak in... just not by name!

Clearly I divined that this question would arise.:smallbiggrin:

[PhantomSoul]

Clearly I divined that this question would arise.:smallbiggrin:

Well, you obviously rolled well then used your abilities when it was importent!