Letting people choose their spell list

[Greywander]

I've played with the idea of creating a homebrew class where you can choose which spell list you use, and I've considered applying this to the official classes. Naturally, there are some issues here, as not all spell lists are created equal; the wizard spell list can be considered a class feature of the wizard, so letting a cleric use the wizard list instead of the cleric list would be OP. In the same vein, no one (who is a full caster, at least) would ever choose the paladin or ranger lists, since those don't have any spells past 5th level.

Probably the best application of this would be to the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, as they're both limited by spells known (they don't know their entire spell list like a cleric, nor do they use a spellbook like a wizard), and they're also limited to two schools of magic. Changing or expanding their spell list will have a much less significant shift in their balance. This could also work well for a sorcerer, I suppose. What made me post this thread now, though, was seeing the recently released Sidekicks UA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576457-UA-is-up-Sidekicks), which includes a spellcaster, and I think this system would work a bit better for a sidekick than what the UA has.

So here's how I'd actually implement this:
First, choose your spellcasting ability score from INT, WIS, or CHA. This gives you a bit more flexibility in terms of multiclassing or skills.
Second, choose what type of spell focus you want to use from arcane focus, holy symbol, druidic focus, or instrument.
Third, for EKs and ATs specifically, choose your two schools of magic. If you ever wanted to make, say, a Transmutation/Conjuration Arcane Trickster, this is your chance to do so.
Finally, choose your spell list. We're actually going to combine several spell lists so that wizard isn't automatically the best. Here's the four combos I came up with:

Arcane: Wizard and sorcerer spells. Recommends INT and arcane focus.
I specifically chose to combine these two lists because they're already 99% identical and already quite expansive, so you don't gain much.

Divine: Cleric and paladin spells. Recommends WIS and holy symbol.
Cleric was already a pretty solid list, perhaps not as good as wizard. Paladin already overlaps with cleric and fits best thematically.

Primal: Druid and ranger spells. Recommends WIS and druidic focus.
Similar to above, druid is a solid list and ranger spells overlap with it and fit the same theme.

Orphic: Bard and warlock spells. Recommends CHA and musical instrument.
An odd combination, but the warlock list is too narrow to stand alone, and adding it to the arcane option would be too expansive.

In the first case, Arcane, I've paired two nearly identical spell lists that were already quite expansive. The other three options take one fairly expansive and solid list and match it up with a less expansive and more restricted list. Each list also has a recommended spellcasting ability score and spell focus (helpful for DMs statting up an NPC, perhaps as a sidekick) without restricting you to those (helpful to PCs who want to fit a more obscure character concept or unconventional multiclass build).

Thoughts and ideas? Again, for now I'd probably restrict this to EKs, ATs, and sidekicks, and maybe sorcerers. Letting a cleric straight up use the wizard list is clearly a bad idea. It might also be fine for a wizard, since wizards already get the most expansive list (so letting a wizard choose the Divine, Primal, or Orphic lists just gives them different options rather than more options).

[PhantomSoul]

I'll probably comment later when I've thought things through and have more of a chance, but for easy reference (pulled from Donjon):


Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Booming Blade
Chill Touch
Control Flames
Create Bonfire
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt
Friends
Frostbite
Green-Flame Blade
Gust
Infestation
Light
Lightning Lure
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Mold Earth
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Shape Water
Shocking Grasp
Sword Burst
Thunderclap
Toll the Dead
True Strike
Absorb Elements
Alarm
Burning Hands
Catapult
Cause Fear
Chaos Bolt
Charm Person
Chromatic Orb
Color Spray
Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Disguise Self
Earth Tremor
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Feather Fall
Find Familiar
Fog Cloud
Grease
Ice Knife
Identify
Illusory Script
Jump
Longstrider
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Protection from Evil and Good
Ray of Sickness
Shield
Silent Image
Sleep
Snare
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Thunderwave
Unseen Servant
Witch Bolt
Aganazzar's Scorcher
Alter Self
Arcane Lock
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Cloud of Daggers
Continual Flame
Crown of Madness
Darkness
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Dragon's Breath
Dust Devil
Earthbind
Enhance Ability
Enlarge/Reduce
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Maximilian's Earthen Grasp
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mind Spike
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Nystul's Magic Aura
Phantasmal Force
Pyrotechnics
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Shadow Blade
Shatter
Skywrite
Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Warding Wind
Web
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Blink
Catnap
Clairvoyance
Counterspell
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Enemies Abound
Erupting Earth
Fear
Feign Death
Fireball
Flame Arrows
Fly
Gaseous Form
Glyph of Warding
Haste
Hypnotic Pattern
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Life Transference
Lightning Bolt
Magic Circle
Major Image
Melf's Minute Meteors
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Sending
Sleet Storm
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Summon Lesser Demons
Thunder Step
Tidal Wave
Tiny Servant
Tongues
Vampiric Touch
Wall of Sand
Wall of Water
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Arcane Eye
Banishment
Blight
Charm Monster
Confusion
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Dimension Door
Dominate Beast
Elemental Bane
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Greater Invisibility
Hallucinatory Terrain
Ice Storm
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Polymorph
Sickening Radiance
Stone Shape
Stoneskin
Storm Sphere
Summon Greater Demon
Vitriolic Sphere
Wall of Fire
Watery Sphere
Animate Objects
Bigby's Hand
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Control Winds
Creation
Danse Macabre
Dawn
Dominate Person
Dream
Enervation
Far Step
Geas
Hold Monster
Immolation
Infernal Calling
Insect Plague
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Negative Energy Flood
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Seeming
Skill Empowerment
Steel Wind Strike
Synaptic Static
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
Transmute Rock
Wall of Force
Wall of Light
Wall of Stone
Arcane Gate
Chain Lightning
Circle of Death
Contingency
Create Homunculus
Create Undead
Disintegrate
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Eyebite
Flesh to Stone
Globe of Invulnerability
Guards and Wards
Investiture of Flame
Investiture of Ice
Investiture of Stone
Investiture of Wind
Magic Jar
Mass Suggestion
Mental Prison
Move Earth
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Scatter
Soul Cage
Sunbeam
Tenser's Transformation
True Seeing
Wall of Ice
Crown of Stars
Delayed Blast Fireball
Etherealness
Finger of Death
Fire Storm
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen's Sword
Plane Shift
Power Word Pain
Prismatic Spray
Project Image
Reverse Gravity
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Teleport
Whirlwind
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Dominate Monster
Earthquake
Feeblemind
Illusory Dragon
Incendiary Cloud
Maddening Darkness
Maze
Mighty Fortress
Mind Blank
Power Word Stun
Sunburst
Telepathy
Astral Projection
Foresight
Gate
Imprisonment
Invulnerability
Mass Polymorph
Meteor Swarm
Power Word Kill
Prismatic Wall
Psychic Scream
Shapechange
Time Stop
True Polymorph
Weird
Wish



Guidance
Light
Mending
Resistance
Sacred Flame
Spare the Dying
Thaumaturgy
Toll the Dead
Word of Radiance
Bane
Bless
Ceremony
Command
Compelled Duel
Create or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Divine Favor
Guiding Bolt
Healing Word
Heroism
Inflict Wounds
Protection from Evil and Good
Purify Food and Drink
Sanctuary
Searing Smite
Shield of Faith
Thunderous Smite
Wrathful Smite
Aid
Augury
Blindness/Deafness
Branding Smite
Calm Emotions
Continual Flame
Enhance Ability
Find Steed
Find Traps
Gentle Repose
Hold Person
Lesser Restoration
Locate Object
Magic Weapon
Prayer of Healing
Protection from Poison
Silence
Spiritual Weapon
Warding Bond
Zone of Truth
Animate Dead
Aura of Vitality
Beacon of Hope
Bestow Curse
Blinding Smite
Clairvoyance
Create Food and Water
Crusader's Mantle
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Elemental Weapon
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Life Transference
Magic Circle
Mass Healing Word
Meld into Stone
Protection from Energy
Remove Curse
Revivify
Sending
Speak with Dead
Spirit Guardians
Tongues
Water Walk
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Banishment
Control Water
Death Ward
Divination
Find Greater Steed
Freedom of Movement
Guardian of Faith
Locate Creature
Staggering Smite
Stone Shape
Banishing Smite
Circle of Power
Commune
Contagion
Dawn
Destructive Wave
Dispel Evil and Good
Flame Strike
Geas
Greater Restoration
Hallow
Holy Weapon
Insect Plague
Legend Lore
Mass Cure Wounds
Planar Binding
Raise Dead
Scrying
Blade Barrier
Create Undead
Find the Path
Forbiddance
Harm
Heal
Heroes' Feast
Planar Ally
True Seeing
Word of Recall
Conjure Celestial
Divine Word
Etherealness
Fire Storm
Plane Shift
Regenerate
Resurrection
Symbol
Temple of the Gods
Antimagic Field
Control Weather
Earthquake
Holy Aura
Astral Projection
Gate
Mass Heal
True Resurrection



Control Flames
Create Bonfire
Druidcraft
Frostbite
Guidance
Gust
Infestation
Magic Stone
Mending
Mold Earth
Poison Spray
Primal Savagery
Produce Flame
Resistance
Shape Water
Shillelagh
Thorn Whip
Thunderclap
Absorb Elements
Alarm
Animal Friendship
Beast Bond
Charm Person
Create or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Earth Tremor
Ensnaring Strike
Entangle
Faerie Fire
Fog Cloud
Goodberry
Hail of Thorns
Healing Word
Hunter's Mark
Ice Knife
Jump
Longstrider
Purify Food and Drink
Snare
Speak with Animals
Thunderwave
Zephyr Strike
Animal Messenger
Barkskin
Beast Sense
Cordon of Arrows
Darkvision
Dust Devil
Earthbind
Enhance Ability
Find Traps
Flame Blade
Flaming Sphere
Gust of Wind
Healing Spirit
Heat Metal
Hold Person
Lesser Restoration
Locate Animals or Plants
Locate Object
Moonbeam
Pass without Trace
Protection from Poison
Silence
Skywrite
Spike Growth
Warding Wind
Call Lightning
Conjure Animals
Conjure Barrage
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Erupting Earth
Feign Death
Flame Arrows
Lightning Arrow
Meld into Stone
Nondetection
Plant Growth
Protection from Energy
Sleet Storm
Speak with Plants
Tidal Wave
Wall of Water
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wind Wall
Blight
Charm Monster
Confusion
Conjure Minor Elementals
Conjure Woodland Beings
Control Water
Dominate Beast
Elemental Bane
Freedom of Movement
Giant Insect
Grasping Vine
Guardian of Nature
Hallucinatory Terrain
Ice Storm
Locate Creature
Polymorph
Stone Shape
Stoneskin
Wall of Fire
Watery Sphere
Antilife Shell
Awaken
Commune with Nature
Conjure Elemental
Conjure Volley
Contagion
Control Winds
Geas
Greater Restoration
Insect Plague
Maelstrom
Mass Cure Wounds
Planar Binding
Reincarnate
Scrying
Steel Wind Strike
Swift Quiver
Transmute Rock
Tree Stride
Wall of Stone
Wrath of Nature
Bones of the Earth
Conjure Fey
Druid Grove
Find the Path
Heal
Heroes' Feast
Investiture of Flame
Investiture of Ice
Investiture of Stone
Investiture of Wind
Move Earth
Primordial Ward
Sunbeam
Transport via Plants
Wall of Thorns
Wind Walk
Fire Storm
Mirage Arcane
Plane Shift
Regenerate
Reverse Gravity
Whirlwind
Animal Shapes
Antipathy/Sympathy
Control Weather
Earthquake
Feeblemind
Sunburst
Tsunami
Foresight
Shapechange
Storm of Vengeance
True Resurrection



Blade Ward
Booming Blade
Chill Touch
Create Bonfire
Dancing Lights
Eldritch Blast
Friends
Frostbite
Green-Flame Blade
Infestation
Light
Lightning Lure
Mage Hand
Magic Stone
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Sword Burst
Thunderclap
Toll the Dead
True Strike
Vicious Mockery
Animal Friendship
Armor of Agathys
Arms of Hadar
Bane
Cause Fear
Charm Person
Comprehend Languages
Cure Wounds
Detect Magic
Disguise Self
Dissonant Whispers
Earth Tremor
Expeditious Retreat
Faerie Fire
Feather Fall
Healing Word
Hellish Rebuke
Heroism
Hex
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Silent Image
Sleep
Speak with Animals
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Thunderwave
Unseen Servant
Witch Bolt
Animal Messenger
Blindness/Deafness
Calm Emotions
Cloud of Daggers
Crown of Madness
Darkness
Detect Thoughts
Earthbind
Enhance Ability
Enthrall
Heat Metal
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Lesser Restoration
Locate Animals or Plants
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Mind Spike
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Phantasmal Force
Pyrotechnics
Ray of Enfeeblement
See Invisibility
Shadow Blade
Shatter
Silence
Skywrite
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Warding Wind
Zone of Truth
Bestow Curse
Catnap
Clairvoyance
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Enemies Abound
Fear
Feign Death
Fly
Gaseous Form
Glyph of Warding
Hunger of Hadar
Hypnotic Pattern
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magic Circle
Major Image
Nondetection
Plant Growth
Remove Curse
Sending
Speak with Dead
Speak with Plants
Stinking Cloud
Summon Lesser Demons
Thunder Step
Tongues
Vampiric Touch
Banishment
Blight
Charm Monster
Compulsion
Confusion
Dimension Door
Elemental Bane
Freedom of Movement
Greater Invisibility
Hallucinatory Terrain
Locate Creature
Polymorph
Shadow of Moil
Sickening Radiance
Summon Greater Demon
Animate Objects
Awaken
Contact Other Plane
Danse Macabre
Dominate Person
Dream
Enervation
Far Step
Geas
Greater Restoration
Hold Monster
Infernal Calling
Legend Lore
Mass Cure Wounds
Mislead
Modify Memory
Negative Energy Flood
Planar Binding
Raise Dead
Scrying
Seeming
Skill Empowerment
Synaptic Static
Teleportation Circle
Wall of Light
Arcane Gate
Circle of Death
Conjure Fey
Create Undead
Eyebite
Find the Path
Flesh to Stone
Guards and Wards
Investiture of Flame
Investiture of Ice
Investiture of Stone
Investiture of Wind
Mass Suggestion
Mental Prison
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Scatter
Soul Cage
True Seeing
Crown of Stars
Etherealness
Finger of Death
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen's Sword
Plane Shift
Power Word Pain
Project Image
Regenerate
Resurrection
Symbol
Teleport
Demiplane
Dominate Monster
Feeblemind
Glibness
Maddening Darkness
Mind Blank
Power Word Stun
Astral Projection
Foresight
Imprisonment
Mass Polymorph
Power Word Heal
Power Word Kill
Psychic Scream
True Polymorph

[Greywander]

Thanks for compiling those lists, PhantomSoul, it certainly helps put things into perspective. I knew the wizard list was expansive, but I think I underestimated just how much more expansive it was compared to the other lists. I knew that combining a full caster and a half caster list would be necessarily less expansive, but I'm a bit surprised at how far behind the Divine list is.

Something I will say is that for a Spells Known class like the sorcerer or bard, it doesn't really matter how many spells are on your list, since you're always limited to your spells known. What really matters if if your list has the spells you want. As such, a less expansive list with more spells you want would actually be better for you. For example, the Arcane list wouldn't be so good if you wanted to focus on magical healing. Where the number of spells on your spell list becomes important is for classes that get access to all the spells on their list, such as cleric, druid, paladin, and wizard.

The only reason this might work for a wizard is because they're already using the most expansive list. Choosing the Arcane option would only add the few sorcerer-only spells, while any other option would significantly limit the expansiveness of their spell list. The same can be said about the sorcerer, with the added benefit of the sorcerer being a Spells Known class. For EKs and ATs, I don't think it will matter too much. I do think it makes sense to be able to make a CHA-based AT rogue using bard spells (and Hex makes sense for a trickster).

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've done something similar except split the lists up by theme and reshuffled them, keeping the same spell on multiple lists. Check my thematic magic revamp in my signature of your interested.

[Greywander]

I glanced over it and it looks interesting. A few things I notice is that not every theme goes to 9th level (Alchemist only goes up to 3rd level) and some themes have no spells at some levels. I'm kind of surprised that the Communications theme doesn't get Comprehend Languages and instead has an empty 1st level.

I do think that there's a lot of interesting stuff you can do if you split the spells up into themes. It does seem like a lot of work, though.

Some of the benefits of combining lists are that it's much easier than splitting them up, and it's also forwards-compatible with any new spells that get added to the game, unless an entirely new class with its own spell list gets added.

If I wanted to put more effort into this, I'd probably do something like what you did, except I'd be tempted to start tinkering with the spells themselves and would probably end up homebrewing the entire magic system. Which I would probably abandon halfway through the process.