What all should a Tolkien (or otherwise Just Better) elf do?

[Fizban]

I've been thinking about "civilized" monsters which are humanoid-ishs with a bunch of racial hit dice that make them decisively better on any significant scale, than the common PC-tier humanoids and their one commoner/warrior/expert level. In particular, Midgard Dwarves from Frostburn are just a fiat monster of a particular version of norse-inspired dwarf: 8 [native] outsider hit dice, magic resistance, curse, turning into animals, and just being able to craft any magic arms/armor/clothing/rings because their entry says so. Very handy for a DM to just say "go search the special mountains for the reclusive dwarves that can craft anything," without giving them 18th level casters. And for having villages threatened by small numbers of more interesting monsters who can actually participate against those monsters, and for a source of "high level" recruits for the plot that don't smash city demographics, etc.

Tolkien elves are Just Better, and this native outsider HD+ fiat "monster" abilities method would work perfectly for them. But I'm not up on the Middle-Earth deep lore so I don't know what all they should have if I wanted to make a similar "civilized" monster entry for the Just Better elves (who live in smaller bands far away from everyone else, until plot calls them into action, etc). I expect 6-8 outsider hit dice is enough for combat, but is there anything Tolkien's elves are known to do that isn't just free hit dice and feats? Probably something to soup up their vision since normal elf +2 spot does almost nothing.

Anything else?

[Malroth]

I've been thinking about "civilized" monsters which are humanoid-ishs with a bunch of racial hit dice that make them decisively better on any significant scale, than the common PC-tier humanoids and their one commoner/warrior/expert level. In particular, Midgard Dwarves from Frostburn are just a fiat monster of a particular version of norse-inspired dwarf: 8 [native] outsider hit dice, magic resistance, curse, turning into animals, and just being able to craft any magic arms/armor/clothing/rings because their entry says so. Very handy for a DM to just say "go search the special mountains for the reclusive dwarves that can craft anything," without giving them 18th level casters. And for having villages threatened by small numbers of more interesting monsters who can actually participate against those monsters, and for a source of "high level" recruits for the plot that don't smash city demographics, etc.

Tolkien elves are Just Better, and this native outsider HD+ fiat "monster" abilities method would work perfectly for them. But I'm not up on the Middle-Earth deep lore so I don't know what all they should have if I wanted to make a similar "civilized" monster entry for the Just Better elves (who live in smaller bands far away from everyone else, until plot calls them into action, etc). I expect 6-8 outsider hit dice is enough for combat, but is there anything Tolkien's elves are known to do that isn't just free hit dice and feats? Probably something to soup up their vision since normal elf +2 spot does almost nothing.

Anything else?
Have you ever heard of the LeShay? (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/LeShay)

[heavyfuel]

Have you ever heard of the LeShay? (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/LeShay)

LeShay don't really represent elves being better immortal humans as much as they represent completely unbeatable creatures.

Elves in Tolkien mythos can definitely be killed by your average human especially in war scenarios. A CR 28 creature is far far far too powerful to represent that.

[Silly Name]

For starters, Tolkien's elves wouldn't have Outsider hit dice. At best, they would get Fey hit dice (still better than plain Humanoid HD).

So, take a standard D&D elf with his keen senses and low-light vision, but make it into a fey and you'd be pretty close to what the baseline Tolkien elf is.

They are effectively immortal, get to reincarnate if their bodies are destroyed, but they can't linger on Middle Earth too long or risk "fading away" as their souls burn away their bodies and turn them into wraiths (meaning ghost, not the monster). This is solved by going to Aman, which is basically Heaven on Earth, but it's a very remote eventuality and individuals can stay on Middle Earth for thousands of years with no issue and they don't ever appear to age past their prime.

A specific subset of Elves, the Noldor (Galadriel and Elrond belong to this group, as well as most of the famous elves of Tolkien's legendarium, save for Legolas) are renowned as excellent craftsmen, so give them the same "they can make magic things because" ability as the Midgard dwarves.

Tolkien's elves wouldn't have a negative modifier to Con, IMHO. They are never described as frail or prone to sickness, and since they're supposed to be plain better than humans, it'd make little sense. In fact, since they'd be Plain Better, negative modifiers at all wouldn't make sense.

Improve their keen senses: elves see further than Men, but this could be easily fixed with the 6/8 HD you'd give them by putting some ranks in Spot, and they also see into the Unseen Realm (in D&D terms, it's similar to the Ethereal plane), which I guess could equal to True Vision as a spell-like ability if you don't want to fiddle with a creature being able to peer into another plane 24h.

[Telonius]

Some sort of one-time Plane Shift ability to get back to Valinor. Increasing compulsion to Go West as their lives plod on through the centuries. Immunity to nonmagical disease and nonmagical aging penalties. Possibly some kind of Fabricate-like ability where they can bring out the essence of a thing into whatever useful tool they want (Sam's "elvish magic").

Able to see into the Shadow/Ethereal plane if they concentrate. They'd have some kind of aura visible on the Shadow/Ethereal.

[gkathellar]

You could plausibly just use eladrin, maybe without the energy form. They're already pretty much "elves but alignment exemplars."

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Silly Name
They are effectively immortal, get to reincarnate if their bodies are destroyed….

Where are you getting this? I don’t recall any of Tolkien’s elves reincarnating.


Originally Posted by Silly Name
…but they can't linger on Middle Earth too long or risk "fading away" as their souls burn away their bodies and turn them into wraiths (meaning ghost, not the monster).

I have no idea where you’re getting this, but it doesn’t sound like the Middle-Earth I grew up with.

At one point it was explicitly stated that elves could live tens of thousands of years without changing. I’ve never heard of some sort of time limit that threatens them with “fading away.” And I've never heard of an elf becoming a wraith simply from spending too much time beneath the stars.

[heavyfuel]

Elves really shouldn't have Racial HD. They are better, but not particularly tougher. They can see you long before you see them, but manage to stab them with a sword and they die just like anybody else.

They do have a bunch of racial bonus, enough for them to be close to LA +5 according to WotC usual ratings, or LA +2 if you go by the Forum's usual ratings. Since they are described as being somewhat unchanging, this is really well represented by high LA, that is, the average elf is much better than the average human, but strong humans are much stronger than strong elves. The whole reason TLotR even exists is because there's no way in hell Elrond could take Isildur in a fight. In game terms it would be like Elrond is a level 2 Elf with a bunch of bonuses, but Isildur is a level 6 Human who just got a ring of Greater Invisibility. It just doesn't compare.

Bonuses would be along the lines of:
Balance, Climb, Craft (any), Handle Animal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Perform (any), Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, and Tumble +8

Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +4

Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus x2 as bonus feats, plus 1 bonus feat.

Being able to cast minor spells as spell-like abilities is a must. As was mentioned, some elves should be able to craft magic items just because.

Immunity to aging and non-magical diseases and poisons.

[Lapak]

The superhuman powers of Tolkien's elves tend to revolve around preservation: they can restore and maintain the status quo. The Silmarils preserved the light of the Trees, Gondolin was hidden from the Enemy, they reforged Narsil and healed Frodo. They themselves are immortal and unchanging; even in Death they arrive at the halls of Mandos as essentially themselves and remain within the world.

So you can give an Elf damn near anything that has not been utterly destroyed and they will be able to fix it (or at minimum keep it the way it is.)

Translating that to an RPG powerset is trickier. My first instinct is to give them the ability to use mundane skill Craft and Heal checks to do stuff that normally can't be done - remove a negative level with a heal check, create magical items with a Craft check and no spellcaster levels. But I don't know that it's the right answer.

[heavyfuel]

So you can give an Elf damn near anything that has not been utterly destroyed and they will be able to fix it (or at minimum keep it the way it is.)

Translating that to an RPG powerset is trickier. My first instinct is to give them the ability to use mundane skill Craft and Heal checks to do stuff that normally can't be done - remove a negative level with a heal check, create magical items with a Craft check and no spellcaster levels. But I don't know that it's the right answer.

I like this (though I would argue it should've been this way in the first place and they should just get racial bonuses :smalltongue:)

[Fizban]

For starters, Tolkien's elves wouldn't have Outsider hit dice. At best, they would get Fey hit dice (still better than plain Humanoid HD).
Not quite. Humanoid hit dice are d8 with 3/4 BAB, while Fey are d6 with 1/2 BAB. Fey have more will save and skill points, but are actually worse in combat. Early MM fey are hilariously weak, while later MM fey have undead tier piles of inflated hit dice. A key part of the Just Better package is that they're always as good in a fight as the humans who are so good they're considered a whole tier above normal- and in the HD game that's defined by BAB 6+, with a side of hit points. In order to reach that with Fey hit dice you need 12 of them, which might be fine, but also shoots their skills so far ahead that the things a BAB 6 person is supposed to fight can't touch their skill modifiers, even moreso if they have any feats or magic items boosting them.

Of course that would probably be a feature if they're actually supposed to be unfairly overpowered, but I don't actually want that. Outsider hit dice give the full BAB that marks one as competent and efficient at combat, with the maximum breadth of skills, and hit points that aren't inflated to make them tougher than those of equal combat skill.

They are effectively immortal, get to reincarnate if their bodies are destroyed, but they can't linger on Middle Earth too long or risk "fading away" as their souls burn away their bodies and turn them into wraiths (meaning ghost, not the monster). This is solved by going to Aman, which is basically Heaven on Earth, but it's a very remote eventuality and individuals can stay on Middle Earth for thousands of years with no issue and they don't ever appear to age past their prime.
Not something I'd particularly care to use myself, but good to know nonetheless. Is there any data that would indicate whether this would be closer to Ghostwalk ghosts or UE Telthors?

A specific subset of Elves, the Noldor (Galadriel and Elrond belong to this group, as well as most of the famous elves of Tolkien's legendarium, save for Legolas) are renowned as excellent craftsmen, so give them the same "they can make magic things because" ability as the Midgard dwarves.
Thought they might. For dnd I'd want to leave that as the dwarves' thing, though the elves would have all the benefits of being able to start with high craft skills.

Tolkien's elves wouldn't have a negative modifier to Con, IMHO. They are never described as frail or prone to sickness, and since they're supposed to be plain better than humans, it'd make little sense. In fact, since they'd be Plain Better, negative modifiers at all wouldn't make sense.
Agreed. Midgard Dwarves have a massive 20, so the elves can be less robust while still having a comfortable 14-15.

Improve their keen senses: elves see further than Men, but this could be easily fixed with the 6/8 HD you'd give them by putting some ranks in Spot, and they also see into the Unseen Realm (in D&D terms, it's similar to the Ethereal plane), which I guess could equal to True Vision as a spell-like ability if you don't want to fiddle with a creature being able to peer into another plane 24h.
Ranks in spot let you see things close by, but not far out, and while combat ability is usually places as equal to a higher level human, vision is usually given as better at all times even above the skilled human. For that you need an ability that just hacks the modifier for distance. I would guess the easiest comparison to make would be birds of prey, but I don't know if I should use statements of "some birds of prey have vision up to 8 times better than humans" as a straight 8x multiplier on distance for that mechanical change (I've been looking up giant turtles and ankylosaurs trying to solve the elephant problem instead- that and if I buff raptor sight that'll make them demonstrably superior familiars). That sound about right?

Seeing ethereal is easy, just See Invisibility. Even if proper Tolkien elves see through all illusions and shapeshifting, that's more than I'd want to put on midrange for the first half of the game. Full outsiders get True Seeing here and there, native outsiders not so much.

Some sort of one-time Plane Shift ability to get back to Valinor. Increasing compulsion to Go West as their lives plod on through the centuries. Immunity to nonmagical disease and nonmagical aging penalties. Possibly some kind of Fabricate-like ability where they can bring out the essence of a thing into whatever useful tool they want (Sam's "elvish magic").
Dunno what this means, can you elaborate? Mentioning Sam makes me think that's the elvish rope and maybe cloak. Giving an item a temporary boost to skill checks for the user would effectively give them a racial bonus on all skills during downtime, which would make them super effective dilettantes.

Able to see into the Shadow/Ethereal plane if they concentrate. They'd have some kind of aura visible on the Shadow/Ethereal.
And for that I'd place the See Invis into at-will self-only SLA or standard on/off rather than continuous effect, rather than concentration since that would prevent most significant game use and 2nd level effects are well within range. Seeing onto Shadow is weird since there aren't really any creatures that just pop back and forth, and Shadow Walk proportions would have people zipping past so fast you'd barely see them if at all. I do think Shadow could be used better though, and with the distance bending and existence of a mass portal in Shadowfade, their ability to see the plot coming could be very important.


You could plausibly just use eladrin, maybe without the energy form. They're already pretty much "elves but alignment exemplars."
Personally I don't like the comparison (and naturally 4e and 5e decided to run with it). I like the Court of Stars idea, but not how it's all bound up with the ideas of the faerie courts- I'd rather leave those out because any time you start invoking old fey tropes you're 1: talking about fey rather than outsiders, and 2: probably doing things that should registers as Evil even if you're supposedly not. Eladrin are fey-like, but they're Good exemplar Outsiders first.


Drawing from other works, the most super-elf experience I'd have would be. . . Dresden Files? Which are are basically either charm aura, spellcaster/SLAs, or specific fey creatures. Most things seem to have leaned hard away from Elves Are Better and taken the DnD player race elves and then separate fey route. I suppose they could just have some amount of casting, but I was trying to avoid that so they could run just on specific abilities.

Hmm, what about animal/nature friendliness, like Animals and Plants always Friendly and continuous Speak With Animals/Plants effects? Pretty sure those are often attributed to elves, while being locked behind actual class features in 3.5.

Got a few posts came in while I was typing, I'll let that run till tomorrow night when I'm back on. Okay, one more-

The superhuman powers of Tolkien's elves tend to revolve around preservation: they can restore and maintain the status quo. The Silmarils preserved the light of the Trees, Gondolin was hidden from the Enemy, they reforged Narsil and healed Frodo. They themselves are immortal and unchanging; even in Death they arrive at the halls of Mandos as essentially themselves and remain within the world.

So you can give an Elf damn near anything that has not been utterly destroyed and they will be able to fix it (or at minimum keep it the way it is.)

Translating that to an RPG powerset is trickier. My first instinct is to give them the ability to use mundane skill Craft and Heal checks to do stuff that normally can't be done - remove a negative level with a heal check, create magical items with a Craft check and no spellcaster levels. But I don't know that it's the right answer.
Sounds to me like a suite of fix it abilities wrapped up in a Su shell. Make Whole, but without the warped exception, maybe beats melted and ground powder? (burnt to ash and vaporized seem too far though), and Restoration (Greater is a bit too high level for what I'm aiming at), and maybe Remove Curse or Break Enchantment. Most importantly, there's room for a super unique feature there: fixing anything, such as ignoring the fact that you can't fix a Magic Item- even the Midgard Dwarves would have to spend half the price rebuilding it, but the Better Elves can fix things, and ain't that a quest hook right there. Just needs some time requirements, could be reverse engineered from how much they're trying to fix, leaving them with a unique ability that's just taking it's limits from the original spells but doesn't function like them anymore.

[Silly Name]

Where are you getting this? I don’t recall any of Tolkien’s elves reincarnating.
A famous example would be Glorfindel, who was reincarnated after he died fighting a Balrog during the fall of Gondolin.

A famous subversion Is Feanor, who is explicitly called out as never returning from the Halls of Mandos, which implies Elves are normally capable of doing so.

Granted, most elves don't return to Middle Earth after getting a new body and instead opt to stay in Valinor, but the reincarnation is a part of their "cycle". It is detailed either in the Silmarillion itself or on Morgoth's Ring (can't recall which, and don't have the books available for checking right now).


At one point it was explicitly stated that elves could live tens of thousands of years without changing. I’ve never heard of some sort of time limit that threatens them with “fading away.” And I've never heard of an elf becoming a wraith simply from spending too much time beneath the stars.

Laws and Customs among the Eldar, a chapter in Morgoth's Ring, details this process of the soul "burning" the body. I was wrong in saying they become wraiths, perhaps, but it's explicitly stated that an elf's soul outlasts their physical appearance and that they eventually become "bodyless".


-Snippet about racial HD-

I concede the mechanical reasoning, but if you want Tolkien's elves (as opposed to just straight Better-than-humans elves), having them as Outsiders doesn't really fit the fluff, as they're explicitely stated to be bound to Arda, in the sense that they are tied to the world's fate and existence (or "Material Plane" in D&D terms). This is better explained in how they experience death: as I said, if a elf dies their soul goes to the Halls of Mandos and they eventually get a new body, and even when their bodies fade away, their souls never leave Arda, and they will exist as long as the world does. Humans, on the other hand, go past the boundaries of Arda upon death, and nobody really knows what happens to their souls (nothing eldritch or horrifying, though, probably).

[Lapak]

A famous example would be Glorfindel, who was reincarnated after he died fighting a Balrog during the fall of Gondolin.

A famous subversion Is Feanor, who is explicitly called out as never returning from the Halls of Mandos, which implies Elves are normally capable of doing so.I would have flipped your example/subversion here. Elves are re-embodied in the Halls, but they don't then generally and/or ever leave them (and Glorfindel is the ONLY example I am aware of that returned to Middle Earth, so describing them as routinely reincarnating is, I think, misleading.)

[Silly Name]

I noted it later down the post that, yes, most Elves stay in Valinor. But, in any case, reincarnation is the process of putting an "old" soul in a "new" body, which is what normally happens to most Elves (maybe "re-embodiment" would be a better term?). Glorfindel is a famous example because he is one elf we know of who returned to Middle Earth after getting his new body (the only other known example would be Luthien, but it gets a bit more complicated with her). But "reincarnation" by itself doesn't mean getting back to Middle Earth, just getting a new body; sorry if I was unclear on that.

Feanor, on the other hand, is said to never leave the Halls of Mandos, not Aman or Valinor, which I've always read as implying that he doesn't re-embody.

[Talakeal]

Manual of the planes 3.0 had rules for the Sidhe. They were fey type elves that used either the half celestial (for seelie) or half fiendish (for unseelie) templates. I used those rules for tolkien style elves.

Also, Eladrin would work pretty well.

[Lapak]

I noted it later down the post that, yes, most Elves stay in Valinor. But, in any case, reincarnation is the process of putting an "old" soul in a "new" body, which is what normally happens to most Elves (maybe "re-embodiment" would be a better term?). Glorfindel is a famous example because he is one elf we know of who returned to Middle Earth after getting his new body (the only other known example would be Luthien, but it gets a bit more complicated with her). But "reincarnation" by itself doesn't mean getting back to Middle Earth, just getting a new body; sorry if I was unclear on that.

Feanor, on the other hand, is said to never leave the Halls of Mandos, not Aman or Valinor, which I've always read as implying that he doesn't re-embody.I normally wouldn't have objected as the two rein-[X] terms literally mean the same thing, but I thought the clarification was important when talking in a D&D context since Reincarnation has a very specific meaning there.

[Faily]

Glorfindel is a famous example because he is one elf we know of who returned to Middle Earth after getting his new body (the only other known example would be Luthien, but it gets a bit more complicated with her).


Yeah, I was also thinking that Luthien was supposedly reincarnated too, though I don't think it's explicitly stated? (The parallels of Arwen/Aragorn - Luthien/Beren is just very very strong.)

[radthemad4]

'ethereal grace and various powers'?
better vision and hearing than humans
'light of foot', don't leave tracks, can walk on snow without sinking
don't need to sleep, but do get tired and can recover by trancing

Source (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Elves)

[Telonius]

Dunno what this means, can you elaborate? Mentioning Sam makes me think that's the elvish rope and maybe cloak. Giving an item a temporary boost to skill checks for the user would effectively give them a racial bonus on all skills during downtime, which would make them super effective dilettantes.


This is where it gets a bit tricky to explain. It's like the old story about Michelangelo in front of the block of marble. He sees a statue, just has to remove the extra stuff that's covering it up. That's how it's like with Tolkien Elves. Their "magic" isn't about bending the outside world to their will. (That sort of domination and warping of the intended world is more in line with what Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman do). Elvish "magic" is more about bringing out the properties that are already present in the thing in front of them, to fit their creativity in harmoniously with the world around them. To them, it's not magical at all, it's just seeing the truth of matters and doing what Tolkien called "sub-creation." That has a lot of religious overtones, but within-world, the elves are basically using their own creativity to join in the Music of the Ainur, as directed by Iluvatar.

To put it another way, imagine a Truenaming system that didn't completely suck mechanically. That's what Middle Earth runs on. The "Words of Creation" feat from BoED is another great example of how a more Tolkien-ish world setup would work.

Anyway, taking the ingredients, applying your creativity perfectly (what you had in mind is what you get at the end) - the closest analogue I can find in D&D is the Fabricate spell.

[Florian]

@Fizban:

Hm. I think you're trying to model something wrong based on lack of knowledge about what the source actually tried to represent.

Tolkien elves are ancient and, as a race, have gone thru all the trial and error phases already and have found out the best approach to anything. For them, there is no kind of "learning by doing" or "advancement by adversary" there, because they've already had that and internalized the results.
To borrow a phrase coined by Francis Fukuyama, they've reached the "End of History", when no further real advancement is possible. (While the gun might beat the bow, the laser rifle might beat the gun, the graviton rifle will beat the laser rifle, the basic principle stays unchanged....).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An elan psion would work well here, actually. Immortal, boosts against starvation, saving throws (and thus, disease and poison), and hp damage, and proper application of discipline skills and various psionic powers could simulate a number of elven abilities. A dip in ranger (as is frequently done for slayer builds) would give some nature flavor. And if you fluff the powers as being more exotic fey magic, you could keep that air of mystery about them. Just describe everything in fey terms and not psionic ones, and don't let on that they're actually psionic.

[Fizban]

@Fizban:

Hm. I think you're trying to model something wrong based on lack of knowledge about what the source actually tried to represent.

Tolkien elves are ancient and, as a race, have gone thru all the trial and error phases already and have found out the best approach to anything. For them, there is no kind of "learning by doing" or "advancement by adversary" there, because they've already had that and internalized the results.
To borrow a phrase coined by Francis Fukuyama, they've reached the "End of History", when no further real advancement is possible. (While the gun might beat the bow, the laser rifle might beat the gun, the graviton rifle will beat the laser rifle, the basic principle stays unchanged....).
I may have used the phrase "Tolkien elves" too many times, but I'm also interested in other interpretations so I figured I'd make the question broad. For my specific use, I was just blanking on ideas of what abilities to give the rest of the thing I have in mind- a 6-8 HD humanoid or native outsider with some fiat elf abilities that aren't just "a Nymph but better with a sword." A flat statistical canonization of the Elves are Just Better trope by way of making all the Better elves equivalent to higher level characters just by reaching adulthood, using the standard racial HD mechanic which best reflects that without upending the place. And since Tolkien is the root of so many elves, I figured I ask if I was missing anything there first. Being able to fix things that the rules say can't be fixed is a solid unique, so I'm glad I asked. With some Better elves and Better dwarves to go along with Blackscale Lizardfolk and various Ogres and so on, I can populate a whole second tier of civilized and uncivilized peoples for 5th+ adventurers to track in, without just handing them free levels. Jumping straight from 1HD humanoids to planar metropolises full of 10+HD outsiders is a bit much for my taste.

It may be that proper Tolkien elves are best modeled as all just being XXth level because they're thousands of years old and maxed out all their levels. I wasn't aware of how explicit the lore was on them just being a bajillion years older than everyone else. That doesn't work in dnd because skill from experience equals class levels, max level characters are only threatened by orc mooks when the max level is rather significantly reduced. I'm wouldn't want to use a "race" whose defining feature is "they're all max level NPCs," since it goes completely against the rest of the self-consistent rules I'm trying to use.

But it's fun to see an elf being statted as an Aberration- I think I've seen that one before.

[Florian]

@Fizban:

Look up two PF races for an interesting take on this: Fetchling and Kitsune, where Fetchlings are the more important example. They are a normal 0-HD race, but similar to the Half-Fiend/Celestial template, they gain scaling resistances and SLA based on HD/class levels. While, say, a Human Ranger 10 and a Fetchling Ranger 10 have the same class features, the later is also able to plane shift home and shadow walk around.

[Silly Name]

Hm, so, I think there is a difference between a Tolkien elf and a simply Better than humans elf. The elves of Middle Earth have their story and fluff which gives you a basis to work with, but at the same time constrains you about how to build them (see my argument for why they shouldn't have Outsider HD).

Better elves are a bit more broad of a concept, and you can build them however you want. But you need to decide what things you want them to be better at. You said you want marvellous feats of craftsmanship to remain in the realms of dwarfhood, so we know that won't belong to your elves, but what should they have?

MaxiDuRaritry's suggestion of reskinning elans as elves might work, but I imagine it might turn your elves closer to the dark, mysterious and slightly eldritch Fair Folk - closer to the Aes Sídhe of Scottish folklore than to the alfar of Norse mythology which inspired Tolkien.

In short - do you want to make a D&D race which properly represents the elves of Middle Earth, or do you want to make a D&D race of elves who are simply better than the ones in the PHB? These are both valid options, and there are sources for either, but you should pick some ideas and basis for the latter - the Midgard dwarves of Frostburn, for example, are clearly modelled on Norse dwarves, which have their own set of qualities which makes them distinct from Snow-White's dwarves.

[Almadelia]

Arguably, a fae basically is an outsider in many settings, just a very special type that gets its own hitdie.

[GrayDeath]

I think its truly the question of simply Better Elves" which would be all the "normal" Toliien Elves born and raised in Middle Earth (lots of Attribute Bonuses, Unaging, Super Senses, say LA +2) or the "imported" ones, Noldor, Valar even, which I would model as having a lot of HD and superior Abilities, but no to very little room left for improvement.

I mean look at Guys like Feanor, or Fingolfin. They are so m uch alrger than Life that you simply cant make them a "normal" D&D Race.

While Guys like legolas (pre Moview) are easily done with simply removing the disadvanteages of Core Elves, maybe giving them the Drow Attribute BOost, and some Level one SLA`s etc and slap a +2 LA on it.

[Telonius]

It may be that proper Tolkien elves are best modeled as all just being XXth level because they're thousands of years old and maxed out all their levels. I wasn't aware of how explicit the lore was on them just being a bajillion years older than everyone else. That doesn't work in dnd because skill from experience equals class levels, max level characters are only threatened by orc mooks when the max level is rather significantly reduced.

One weird bit about the "Orc mooks" in Tolkien ... some of them are also bajillions of years old. Orcs were originally Elves who were captured, enslaved, and corrupted by Morgoth. (There's a scene in one of the Lord of the Rings books where a couple of the orcs were reminiscing about what had happened in some of the battles of The Silmarillion).

Anyway, the "fix and preserve" stuff is absolutely in the spirit of Tolkien.

[heavyfuel]

I mean look at Guys like Feanor, or Fingolfin. They are so m uch alrger than Life that you simply cant make them a "normal" D&D Race.

That's because they aren't of a normal D&D race. They are the standard better elves with 20 class levels on top.

You don't make a race based on what 2 guys did. If they are special, it's because they are high level, not because their race allowed them to be

[Silly Name]

Yeah, Fingolfin and Feanor are exceptional even by elvish standards, so it wouldn't be a good idea to use them as a basis for what the capabilities of elves, as a whole, should be.

Still, while I agree one of the reasons elves seem to always been better at everything is that they have had thousands, if not millions, of years to become the best at everything, they have innate qualities which give them an headstart. From seeing further than humans to having a deep connection with the structure of the world itself, those are the things which in D&D are usually given as racial traits.

[Komatik]

I think its truly the question of simply Better Elves" which would be all the "normal" Toliien Elves born and raised in Middle Earth (lots of Attribute Bonuses, Unaging, Super Senses, say LA +2) or the "imported" ones, Noldor, Valar even, which I would model as having a lot of HD and superior Abilities, but no to very little room left for improvement.

Why'd you lump Valar with the elves? They're gods who decided to stay in the world, not pointy-eared gits.

[hamishspence]

Why'd you lump Valar with the elves? They're gods who decided to stay in the world, not pointy-eared gits.

I could see Maiar (lesser Valar) who have taken elven form (notably, Melian) as using a modified elven statblock. Melian's daughter Luthien is consistently described as an elf (her father was one).

[Silly Name]

The way Tolkien handled the reproduction of different "species" is very different from how D&D does it. While it could be argued that the Maia blood did influence Luthien somehow, it is never something explicitely stated. Luthien is an exceptional elf, but doesn't seem to go past what "pure" elves were capable of.

Elrond is an half-elf, but he doesn't have half of the "racial bonuses" of the elf race: he got to chose whether he'd live as a (long-lived and healthy) human, or as an elf, and by choosing the latter he became indistinguishable from any other elf.

Maiar and Valar are another topic entirely, since for them bodies are more akin to a form they choose and which they seem capable of changing, up to a degree and with the possibility of limitations (see how Sauron lost the capacity to take a "fair form", although how or why is unclear).

In any case, back on topic! So, what should, mechanically, "better elves" look like?


Functional immortality (they live forever unless killed, get no negative modifiers from old age)
Resistance or straight-up immunity to non-magical diseases
One or multplie forms of "better" sights (see farther than humans, see invisibilty, etc)
Innate affinity for magic, perhaps in the form of SLAs like Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound and Minor Image. Illusion spells, mostly. They cast like bards (they sing and dance when casting).
Racial HD to put them at an advantage (and off-set some LA): depending on the fluff, they would be either Fey or Outsiders. Since Outsider HD is the best of the two, they are Outsiders! Between 6 and 8 HD should be enough, I suppose.
Racial bonuses, this is were it gets a bit tough. Giving them a bonus to every stat seems a bit overkill, but they certainly don't have any negative modifier. I'd boost DEX, WIS and CHA, which strike me as very "elvish" things.

[ShurikVch]

IMHO, Elves in Tolkien are non-Native Outsiders: how their revival in Aman (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Aman) is different from how demons are re-emerging in the Abyss?


Elves in Tolkien mythos can definitely be killed by your average human especially in war scenarios. A CR 28 creature is far far far too powerful to represent that.Feats of Elves in Tolkien mythos are inconsistent: Ecthelion (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ecthelion_of_the_Fountain) soloed Gothmog (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gothmog_(Balrog))! If you will ask me: "How much normal humans can Lord of Balrogs (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Lord_of_Balrogs) kill?", my answer will be: "All of them!"

[Silly Name]

IMHO, Elves in Tolkien are non-Native Outsiders: how their revival in Aman (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Aman) is different from how demons are re-emerging in the Abyss?

Well, for one Tolkien doesn't use a Planar mythology, but in any case the elves' souls travelling to the Halls of Mandos is more akin to any D&D mortal soul heading to the alignment-appropriate afterlife than demons merging with the Abyss and eventually resurfacing as new demons.


Feats of Elves in Tolkien mythos are inconsistent: Ecthelion (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ecthelion_of_the_Fountain) soloed Gothmog (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gothmog_(Balrog))! If you will ask me: "How much normal humans can Lord of Balrogs (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Lord_of_Balrogs) kill?", my answer will be: "All of them!"

Ecthelion is very clearly not an average or baseline elf which in d&d would be represented as a level 1 character with the standard array. He fought Gothmog, but the Lord of Balrog fell countless non-extraordinary elves with ease.

[ShurikVch]

Well, for one Tolkien doesn't use a Planar mythology, but in any case the elves' souls travelling to the Halls of Mandos is more akin to any D&D mortal soul heading to the alignment-appropriate afterlife than demons merging with the Abyss and eventually resurfacing as new demons.I meant not the obscure process of "demons merging with the Abyss and eventually resurfacing as new demons", but how planar exemplars - such as Demons for the Abyss - who were "killed" outside of their home plane, are restored there, exactly as they were (and, according to some sources, mere seconds after their apparent "death")

[heavyfuel]

Feats of Elves in Tolkien mythos are inconsistent: Ecthelion (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ecthelion_of_the_Fountain) soloed Gothmog (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gothmog_(Balrog))! If you will ask me: "How much normal humans can Lord of Balrogs (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Lord_of_Balrogs) kill?", my answer will be: "All of them!"

What a single member of a race can do does not define what the race as a whole can do. Ecthelion is just a high level elf.


Ecthelion is very clearly not an average or baseline elf which in d&d would be represented as a level 1 character with the standard array. He fought Gothmog, but the Lord of Balrog fell countless non-extraordinary elves with ease.

Yup.

[Silly Name]

I meant not the obscure process of "demons merging with the Abyss and eventually resurfacing as new demons", but how planar exemplars - such as Demons for the Abyss - who were "killed" outside of their home plane, are restored there, exactly as they were (and, according to some sources, mere seconds after their apparent "death")

But the "home plane" of Elves is Middle Earth. :confused: The Halls of Mandos are simply a (temporary) afterlife.

In any case, Aman is not a separate plane from Middle Earth, they exist on the same "material plane".

[rferries]

The way Tolkien handled the reproduction of different "species" is very different from how D&D does it. While it could be argued that the Maia blood did influence Luthien somehow, it is never something explicitely stated. Luthien is an exceptional elf, but doesn't seem to go past what "pure" elves were capable of.

Elrond is an half-elf, but he doesn't have half of the "racial bonuses" of the elf race: he got to chose whether he'd live as a (long-lived and healthy) human, or as an elf, and by choosing the latter he became indistinguishable from any other elf.

Maiar and Valar are another topic entirely, since for them bodies are more akin to a form they choose and which they seem capable of changing, up to a degree and with the possibility of limitations (see how Sauron lost the capacity to take a "fair form", although how or why is unclear).

In any case, back on topic! So, what should, mechanically, "better elves" look like?


Functional immortality (they live forever unless killed, get no negative modifiers from old age)
Resistance or straight-up immunity to non-magical diseases
One or multplie forms of "better" sights (see farther than humans, see invisibilty, etc)
Innate affinity for magic, perhaps in the form of SLAs like Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound and Minor Image. Illusion spells, mostly. They cast like bards (they sing and dance when casting).
Racial HD to put them at an advantage (and off-set some LA): depending on the fluff, they would be either Fey or Outsiders. Since Outsider HD is the best of the two, they are Outsiders! Between 6 and 8 HD should be enough, I suppose.
Racial bonuses, this is were it gets a bit tough. Giving them a bonus to every stat seems a bit overkill, but they certainly don't have any negative modifier. I'd boost DEX, WIS and CHA, which strike me as very "elvish" things.



I humbly (yet shamelessly) submit my Elf-Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535991-Elf-Lord-(elven-prestige-class)&p=22375607#post22375607) class for consideration. The class chassis is effectively the outsider type, with class features.

[Knaight]

The whole reason TLotR even exists is because there's no way in hell Elrond could take Isildur in a fight. In game terms it would be like Elrond is a level 2 Elf with a bunch of bonuses, but Isildur is a level 6 Human who just got a ring of Greater Invisibility. It just doesn't compare.
Elrond wasn't willing to kill his friend, he may or may not have been able to - though the ring could change that, especially as the power granted by the ring is greater when in the hands of the more powerful, and that Greater Invisibility is in the hands of a humble hobbit. In Isuldur's hands who knows what it might have done?


I mean look at Guys like Feanor, or Fingolfin. They are so m uch alrger than Life that you simply cant make them a "normal" D&D Race.
Feanor suggests that the upper range for elves may be higher than for humans, but elves are explicitly less than they were, which is part of why the few very old elves in LotR (e.g. Galadriel) are so much scarier than everyone else. Besides, look at Hurin; the same applies to humans to some extent.


Feats of Elves in Tolkien mythos are inconsistent: Ecthelion (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ecthelion_of_the_Fountain) soloed Gothmog (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gothmog_(Balrog))! If you will ask me: "How much normal humans can Lord of Balrogs (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Lord_of_Balrogs) kill?", my answer will be: "All of them!"

Look at Turin, or even Bard. Elves are inconsistent because elves are different, it's not just a bunch of copies of one elf and what Ecthelion can do isn't representative of what someone like Legolas can do, let alone some random elf.

[Albions_Angel]

So, theres a number of things here. But essentially, OP wanted a "Midgard Elf" kind of thing, inspired by the feats of Tolkien's elves? An elf that a DM could throw down that was about CR5, and doesnt have to worry about "well, this one is a wizard and this one is a rogue and this one is...". Thats what we are aiming at, right?

So there are a few things I have seen here.

People said elves shouldnt have racial hit dice, because Tolkien elves die to humans. Well, they die to soldiers. Often heroic ones (the soldiers of Gondor are not level 1 warriors, guys. Come on!). But if we want a CR5 (ish) thing to be the elf form of a midgard dwarf, then I think we need some. Well, about 8 actually.

People have both pointed out that they die to human soldiers, AND that SOME can solo large, heroic monsters. I would say, some of the hero elves have class levels. But I would expect the general, book based description elves to perform well in 1 on 1 combat.

Someone mentioned they didnt think they should have small con because they clearly arnt frail and sickly.

Theres some other tolkien traits. They are functionally immortal. They are almost "not really here". Legolas walks on top of the snow, but its not that he is light, its that it just isnt really there for him. He also wears no protection from the cold and it is like the sun is always on him. In addition, when the hobbits fall in with the elves before meeting Bombadil and the Barrow Wights, they seem to travel several days distance in a single afternoon, with no fatigue, bathed in sunlight, singing with the elves. They are often (but not always) master craftsmen. They have very basic spellcasting abilities (some have very strong abilites). They are also harmed by Black Speech, and by evil areas.

So, thinking of all that, here is some spitballing.

How about:


Fey Type - D6 hit dice, low light vision, good ref and will
Elf-Blooded - treated as elves for all things that affect elves, also have immune to sleep, +2 spot/search/listen, spot secret doors, prof with elf weapons (I would add auto prof with the elf weapons from Races of the Wild).


Now, lets tack some more things on.


Base has +2 Dex, -2 Con. They are dexy, but not very hitpoint heavy. But wont that mean they are frail, and get sick?
Not with Good Fort (yes, 3 good saves). This will help with poison.
Immunity to non-magic diseases. Elves are healthy, just a little weak.
3/4 BAB. Elves are fantastic fighters.
Constant 20% miss chance as Blur spell (Ex). They seem to dodge everything. 1v1, and with +2 dex, it means these elves will take most fights. BUT, stack them up in an army, and while they have an edge, so many blows will be falling at them that they will die. Just like in Tolkien.
Give them the same crafting features of Midgard Dwarfs
Climate Tolerant (Ex) as Neanderthals
Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat
Evil Susceptibility - spells with verbal components and the EVIL descriptor cast within earshot force a Will Save (DC 10 + spell level) from the elf, or the elf becomes sickened for 1 minute. A successful save means the elf is immune to this effect for 24 hours, UNLESS the second spell is +3 levels higher than the first one.
Base Land Speed 40
Timeless March - 1 per week, an elf and up to 6 companions can travel up to 120 miles in a single days march. This does not change the speed of the elf or companions for the purposes of combat. If the companions are also elves, their ability is also used up. Not sure how to word this one without abuse, but the idea is normally, the elf can travel 40 miles a day, right? Well, with this active, he can travel 120 miles a day, but it SEEMS like 40. That said, traveling only 40 miles should ALSO take the full day.
Maybe a few SLAs? At will Prestidigitation, Purify food and water, 3/day silent image, 1 per day charm person?


I think thats more or less everything I want to give them.

So, I would say... hmm...

Ancestral Elf
Medium Fey
23 HP (8d6-8)
12 Str
18 Dex (15 base, +2 Racial, +1 Increase)
08 Con (10 base, -2 Racial)
14 Int
13 Wis
08 Cha (elves are beautiful, but aloof)

That might make them a little weak. Went for elite array. Can adjust.

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Point Blank Shot (1st) (maybe make another bonus feat)
Precise Shot (3rd)
2 Weapon Fighting (6th)
(Improv 2 Weapon Fight if PBS is moved to bonus)

+1 Splitting Elvencraft Bow
+2 Elven Thinblade
+1 Elven Lightblade
+1 Mythril Scalemail
Forestwarden Shroud


What do you think? The ancenstral elves will engage in ranged combat where possible, but can close with with a single minded efficiency, weilding both their thin and lightblades.

THIS IS NOT A PC CLASS!

[ShurikVch]

But the "home plane" of Elves is Middle Earth. :confused: The Halls of Mandos are simply a (temporary) afterlife.Then why the "sea-longing (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sea-longing)"?
And why any random person could deduce: "They're not of this world" just by looking at them?

In any case, Aman is not a separate plane from Middle Earth, they exist on the same "material plane".Wasn't it "removed" after the fall of Númenor?

[Silly Name]

Then why the "sea-longing (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sea-longing)"?
Lots of metaphysical reasons, but mostly because A) Aman lies beyond the Great Sea, and all elves know that their ultimate fate is to either fade or sail West to the Undying Lands, and B) within the sea the echoes of the Music still live, and elves are drawn to it on an unconscious level. Notice how the sea-longing doesn't manifest in Legolas until he hears the cries of seagulls.


And why any random person could deduce: "They're not of this world" just by looking at them?
Because the elves have a strong "presence" in the Unseen Realm, not because they originally belong in Aman. They awoke on the shores of Cuiviénen, on the far East reaches of Middle Earth, and then some of them travelled to Valinor when Orome asked them.


Wasn't it "removed" after the fall of Númenor?

Aman remains part of Arda. The Straight Path is hidden to humans, but elves can still physically sail to the shores of Valinor. Again, Tolkien didn't use a Planar cosmology like that of D&D: things are either within Arda (Middle Earth, Aman and the elves), or outside of it (like Eru and the souls of Men after they die).

@rferries: your Elf Lord class is interesting, although the prerequisites would turn me off of it. Still, I think it does end up representing a kind of elf who is more than a pointy-eared human with a few bonuses.

@Albions_Angel: I'm still opposed to the -2 to CON, because even with a good Fort saves it means that, on average, elves are frailer and less healthy than humans. The immunity to non-magical diseases does mitigate that, but it still feels wrong for a "better than humans under most fronts" race to have negative modifiers.

As for the Timeless March feature, I like it. I would probably word it as "Once per week, an elf and up to six other creatures he identifies as his companions can cover 120 miles of on-foot travel in a single day. To the elf and his companions, it feels as if they are walking at a normal pace, and at the end of the travel they are no more tired than if they covered 40 miles.

If any or all of the elf's companions is an elf as well, they must spend their weekly use of Timeless March as well for this ability to work.

Use of Timeless March doesn't influence movement speed while in battle."

[Albions_Angel]

@Albions_Angel: I'm still opposed to the -2 to CON, because even with a good Fort saves it means that, on average, elves are frailer and less healthy than humans. The immunity to non-magical diseases does mitigate that, but it still feels wrong for a "better than humans under most fronts" race to have negative modifiers.

As for the Timeless March feature, I like it. I would probably word it as "Once per week, an elf and up to six other creatures he identifies as his companions can cover 120 miles of on-foot travel in a single day. To the elf and his companions, it feels as if they are walking at a normal pace, and at the end of the travel they are no more tired than if they covered 40 miles.

If any or all of the elf's companions is an elf as well, they must spend their weekly use of Timeless March as well for this ability to work.

Use of Timeless March doesn't influence movement speed while in battle."

Nice wording. I wanted to avoid mentioning battle though, because you can guarantee that some smug person will rules lawyer it with "well we are in initiative, but its a chase, not combat" or "We arnt in initiative, so I move 3 times his speed". Maybe its sorted with an AoE that effects everyone in a large radius? The idea is, its not just they dont get tired, they physically dont see the world zipping by at lightning speed. But I dont know how to do it mechanically.

As for Con, I totally get you. I really do. Tolkien elves are not weaklings. Ill talk through my reasoning though.

Tolkien Dwarfs are hardy, stout, and quite comfortable being stabbed. Hell, a + to con might not be enough, maybe they need natural armor. Midgard Dwarfs get + to Con though.

Tolkien humans are bog standard (allbeit heroic) and can take a beating but heal as humans do.

Elves though are fragile. They do break. They are resistant to poisons and diseases but they arnt super durable. THATS why I gave them a neg con. But maybe neg con AND fey hit dice are bad. THey should not get a + to con though. If you take out the neg con, give them neg Str or neg Cha. Int should be their casting stat.

[Caelestion]

Although the Elves of the Birthright setting (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=BRCS:Chapter_one_Character_Elve s_Cerilian) have been toned down to make them more or less playable, they were pretty clearly based on Tolkien's Elves.

[Bronk]

I think if I were going to reverse model Tolkien on 3.5 dnd...


**************************

All evil creatures would be NPCs, and the elves would also be, at least at low levels.

Regular humans would be dnd humans, and regular hobbits would be average halflings. Most would be able to take NPC classes on top of that.

Young elves (either actually young or NPC nobodies) would be regular Grey or Moon elves, but would be fey instead of humanoid, and have the elite array. They would have 3 racial hit dice with all good saves. They would be immortal and have immunity to natural diseases. If they are merely young, they would be able to take either PC classes, or, if destined to be NPCs, just take NPC classes, with even non-warriors relying on their elf proficiencies if called up in a militia.

Heroic humans (like Aragorn) would either have or have the equivalent of the elite array focusing on physical stats, have 3 human paragon levels, and have an extended lifespan. They would be able to take PC classes.

Heroic hobbits (like Bilbo or Frodo) would either have or have the equivalent of the elite array, focusing on dex, and also have the abilities of the whisper gnome. They would be able to take PC classes.

Ent-draught empowered hobbits (like Pippin and Meriadoc) would be heroic hobbits (otherwise they wouldn't be on an adventure and run into ents) with a partial size boost (bonuses to strength and constitution) as well as three halfling paragon levels. (With similar effects for humans.)

Heroic elves (like Legolas) would be older and more experienced, young elves advanced with 3 elf paragon levels as well as 5-10 PC class levels. For warrior types, the '+1 wizard level' of the elf paragon class would go towards putting them more in tune with Tolkienesque natural magic and using their own race's magic items.

Elder elves (like Galadriel, Elrond, and the other named ones from long ago) would be heroic elves with another ten or more PC class levels. They would also have the epic paragon template to show their millennia of training, accumulated wisdom, and enhanced knowledge of the truth of the world and/or having visited Valinor.

Valinor would be an island that would double as a different plane... like Ghostwalk.

Maia would be outsiders of variable hit dice, whose outsider hit dice would double as a spellcasting class, like ursinals. Most are wizards (like ursinals) but at least one, Radagast, would be more like a druid. Upon death, they reform in Valinor.

***************************

Basically, Tolkien set up his world following the Roman ideal of the Middle Ages, where everything is better or more regal in the past. DnD follows this pretty well, with most game worlds being medieval with magic on top of the ruins of multiple ancient empires.

He also incorporates the ideals from various mythologies (I'll go with Greek here, Hesiod's Five Ages) where previous generations are more powerful and longer lived than the current generation. The best elves are the oldest who walked with the most powerful Maia in Valinor long ago. The best humans were the ones from Numenor who lived for many centuries, and the best humans now are those with the most - but dwindling - amount of their blood.

Aside from a long slog of slow leveling up, the best you can hope for is for something both magical and survivable to happen to you. It's all very depressing.