Hilgya's the worst [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 11:48 AM

hilgya is completely selfish and doesn't care for how her actions cause suffering to others. she's little better than belkar was at the beginning. she's also the last person in the world whom i want to raise a child - well, ok, xykon is the last, and nale would also be lower than hilgya, but you got my point.
sure, she was wronged in the past and she is somewhat symphatetic because of it, but it's no excuse.

My best-case scenario is, hilgya is killed (possibly by belkar immediately after raising durkon again, possibly with an even *I* find that loathsome vibe), minrah is raised, durkon marries minrah and they grow the child together. i don't think rich will kill a mother, though. or at least not by a member of the order.

Also Hilgya is evil and death isn't permanent in the Stick-verse, so you do have to frame it in the context of that universe's rules. It's still an extreme reaction, but not the same as shooting someone in a universe that doesn't have Raise Dead spells.

I also don't think Rich is using the losing one level rule, or at least has never addressed it with any other character before.

it's not the same as killing in the real world, but it is the same as breaking some bones: it fixes eventually, but takes a lot of time and effort to recover fully. which is made worse by durkon being needed to save the world

So... less bad than murder, but still "years of prison" kind of bad.
the fact that she's basically a stalker come to exact revenge on the person who dumped her make it worse. She's the female equivalent of the guy who chases his ex girlfriend for years and beats her badly, and she gets the same amount of scorn from me.

Morty

2018-12-19, 11:49 AM

Hilgya's reaction was overly violent, which is something she does a lot. Death being impermanent in the OotS-verse is a flimsy excuse. Breaking someone's arm isn't permanent in our world, but that doesn't make breaking someone's arm an appropriate response in most situations.

That being said, Durkon did monologue at her without giving her a chance to get a word in edgewise and dropped a marriage proposal in a spectacularly inappropriate moment. So he deserved a rebuke... just not one involving a lethal spell to the face.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 11:51 AM

That being said, Durkon did monologue at her without giving her a chance to get a word in edgewise and dropped a marriage proposal in a spectacularly inappropriate moment. So he deserved a rebuke... just not one involving a lethal spell to the face.

As I've said elsewhere, I think Durkon suspected that a death strike was coming regardless, and said his bit before she could kill him anyway. I am less sure of whether Durkon was correct in that suspicion, but I give it better-than-even odds.

Grey Wolf

Peelee

2018-12-19, 12:02 PM

You are wrong. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html)

Grey Wolf

Late to the party, but wrong indeed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html).

Mordar

2018-12-19, 12:03 PM

My best-case scenario is, hilgya is killed (possibly by belkar immediately after raising durkon again, possibly with an even *I* find that loathsome vibe), minrah is raised, durkon marries minrah and they grow the child together. i don't think rich will kill a mother, though. or at least not by a member of the order.

Wait, what? I *so* don't get the whole Minrah thing at all. And what in the world would make anyone think that Minrah would want to marry some guy who brought a terrible Vampire spirit into town and killed oodles of her friends, colleagues and/or innocent bystanders...just to help him raise his one-night-stand child after his friend killed the child's mother? The whole "I was possessed, but I'm trying to save the world" bit earns his way off of "Number One Enemy of the People", but it only maybe gets him back to neutral ground. Certainly not to "Marry the Redeemed Hero I Just Met and Only Really Interacted With in the Afterlife" tier. Give Minrah some agency and credit, please.

Also, I have to believe we've seen a pretty large number of mothers slain, including by the Order.

As I've said elsewhere, I think Durkon suspected that a death strike was coming regardless, and said his bit before she could kill him anyway. I am less sure of whether Durkon was correct in that suspicion, but I give it better-than-even odds.

Yup, I agree - had to take a stab at laying things out and taking his punishment. Better to fall on the sword than be pushed...but he still took the Flame Strike in the end.

- M

Kish

2018-12-19, 12:05 PM

Wait, what? I *so* don't get the whole Minrah thing at all.
She's a female dwarf who hasn't mentioned a partner. Obviously she's practically married to the male dwarf in the party already.

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-19, 12:07 PM

As I've said elsewhere, I think Durkon suspected that a death strike was coming regardless, and said his bit before she could kill him anyway. I am less sure of whether Durkon was correct in that suspicion, but I give it better-than-even odds.
Hard to call that bet, I am on the fence ... perhaps in a few strips we'll have more to work with.

The apology was a good start (interrupting her maybe not the best move ever unless it had been "Thank You! for the Resurrection Spell") and the second half of his monologue was tone deaf. (But the more I think of it, it is still consistent with Durkon being Durkon) .

Hilgya overreacting: yep, bad form no matter how we slice it.
It wasn't necessary to kill him to get her point across. (I am pretty sure she did get her point across with that, though, in her heavy handed way).
While she non-chalantly pulls out the diamond and will doubtless revive Durkon, the message she just sent the rest of the Order is very clear:
I am a loose canon, and I am happy to kill an ally on a whim.
Hilgya will not be traveling with the order beyond Firmament. I suspect that she'll carry Kudzu with her wherever she goes, as her on screen utterances to date indicate that she's not giving the baby up.

Does Hilgya survive this encounter? Probably.
Chances of Belkar introducing Hilgya to Sabby Town: I'll bet the over on his attempt.
I think Roy will pull him off of her before he can kill her because Roy has got a vampire and an exarch to deal with, and a council, and a trip to the last gate, and she was of some help in defeating the Vampires in that last battle. That will count for something in Roy's book, I think.

Chances the whole order gangs up on her and kills her right here?
Very, very low. My gut feel is that Haley might not be averse to sticking her full of arrows, but is like Roy looking ahead to the next challenge.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 12:08 PM

She's a female dwarf who hasn't mentioned a partner. Obviously she's practically married to the male dwarf in the party already.

Don't forget she smiled once when Durkon talked.

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-19, 12:12 PM

Don't forget she smiled once when Durkon talked. And about punched his lights out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html) when she had the chance. :smallcool:

Peelee

2018-12-19, 12:13 PM

And about punched his lights out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html) when she had the chance. :smallcool:

It's kismet!

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 12:19 PM

As I've said elsewhere, I think Durkon suspected that a death strike was coming regardless, and said his bit before she could kill him anyway. I am less sure of whether Durkon was correct in that suspicion, but I give it better-than-even odds.

Grey Wolf

my pet theory is that he saw hilgya coming to battle and he came to the completely wrong conclusion that she was trying to save him, possibly because she was still in love with him.

Wait, what? I *so* don't get the whole Minrah thing at all. And what in the world would make anyone think that Minrah would want to marry [durkon]
- M
i don't think it likely, and i haven't seen any hint of anything romantic between the two of them. it's just that my point is that i'd rather see hilgya smoked and durkon raising the child with someone else, and minrah is the only potential candidate for adoptive mother that I see; plus she's a good person, that counts for something.
I mean, durkon marrying V and raising kudzu as adoptive child would also be a similarly good outcome, but that's much less likely than minrah :smallbiggrin:

Dion

2018-12-19, 12:22 PM

There may be a selfish element to it (relieving his own guilt) - but it's first and foremost about trying to help others.

Well, it sure looks like he sure smashed these dishes all over the floor too. At least Hilgya has two arms, so she could use one of them to shield Kudzu’s eyes.

Emanick

2018-12-19, 12:41 PM

Wait, what? I *so* don't get the whole Minrah thing at all. And what in the world would make anyone think that Minrah would want to marry some guy who brought a terrible Vampire spirit into town and killed oodles of her friends, colleagues and/or innocent bystanders...just to help him raise his one-night-stand child after his friend killed the child's mother? The whole "I was possessed, but I'm trying to save the world" bit earns his way off of "Number One Enemy of the People", but it only maybe gets him back to neutral ground. Certainly not to "Marry the Redeemed Hero I Just Met and Only Really Interacted With in the Afterlife" tier. Give Minrah some agency and credit, please.

Also, I have to believe we've seen a pretty large number of mothers slain, including by the Order.

Yup, I agree - had to take a stab at laying things out and taking his punishment. Better to fall on the sword than be pushed...but he still took the Flame Strike in the end.

- M

I don’t think you’re right that Minrah has anything against Durkon at this point; they seem to be solid friends by the end of Durkon’s time in the afterlife (with the obvious caveat that yeah, they don’t know each other too well, so “friends” might be an overstatement). So yeah, I don’t think the “guy who brought a vampire spirit into town” thing is going to be an issue, particularly since Minrah now knows it was all part of Thor and Odin’s plan, and she literally worships Thor.

That said, yeah, there’s no evidence that they have any sort of romantic connection. It wouldn’t surprise me if they got hitched in the comic’s epilogue or something, but there’s no reason to assume that they will.

Pax_Chi

2018-12-19, 01:17 PM

Durkon had what amounted to a short date and some sex, then insulted her and walked out. Then the second he sees her again a year later, he interrupts her and the first thing he says to her is to make a big grand marriage proposal that was selfish and designed to make her look like the bad guy if she said no.

This isn't ending with Hilgya saying yes, this is ending with a life lesson for Durkon about how he treated her.

That's a REALLY uncharitable and biased take on what happened.

Durkon and Hilgya went on an adventure together. She backstabbed him (metaphorically) at Nale's order, then the pair worked together because they were in a dangerous location. She came on to him, and they had sex.

It's only after that where she reveals that she's married, and makes it clear that she holds views fundamentally incompatible with his own. Durkon was basically made an unwilling participant in adultery, and had every right to be angry. He makes his position clear about following the rules of his society and tells her that she should go be with her husband.

And yes, when he sees her again for the first time, he interrupts her so that he can get his say in first. Because for the first time in weeks, if not months, Durkon finally no longer a prisoner in his own body and can actually speak to his living friends. And he sees the expression on Hilgya's face and wants to try and head off an argument because he's had time to reflect on things. Heck, the first thing he says once given the chance is to APOLOGIZE to her.

Yes, Durkon has misread Hilgya, and proposing to her out of a sense of duty and dwarven societal obligation is the last thing she wants. But it's born from Durkon giving her every benefit of the doubt and sincerely trying to do the right thing, wanting to be there for his son and giving Hilgya a sincere chance for reform.

A simple "no" would have sufficed. Her punching him in the face would have been unwarranted but understandable to some degree. Her using DIVINE FIRE to MURDER HIM is the equivalent of ED209 from Robocop 1 blasting the poor guy during the live test until he's basically bloody Swiss cheese.

And no, her being able to bring him back does not mitigate this. She's costing him levels, causing him incredible pain, and oh right, committing murder. It'd be like some wealthy person beating someone to a bloody pulp, but then paying for the person's corrective surgery afterwards. Even if the person is restored to 100% with no side effects, guess what? The rich person is still going to be arrested for assault.

Hilgya is an extremely selfish, evil individual that is long past due for some comeuppance. That people are defending her would surprise and disappoint me if there wasn't already something of a history of that sort of thing in the fandom.

Giscard76

2018-12-19, 01:20 PM

She's a female dwarf who hasn't mentioned a partner. Obviously she's practically married to the male dwarf in the party already.

That is how it works in a lot of D&D groups...

Deeds

2018-12-19, 01:32 PM

You are wrong.

Grey Wolf
Off topic, but I like this quote.

JonahFalcon

2018-12-19, 01:42 PM

Kish

2018-12-19, 01:44 PM

Good Vs. Evil

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

Yeah, that sounds totally unlike "real-life" morality. Unrecognizable, in fact.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 01:50 PM

In Dungeons and Dragons, you can freely murder people of an opposing alignment and get XP for it, and still be considered "good".

Nope. A Chaotic Neutral person who "freely murders" Lawful Neutral people won't rapidly gravitate to Good, but to Evil.

"Opposed alignment" is not enough of a reason for people who take their non-evil alignment seriously, to kill.

zinycor

2018-12-19, 01:50 PM

I don't get all this hate for Hilgya.. She is going to revive Durkon anyway...

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 01:53 PM

Yup, I agree - had to take a stab at laying things out and taking his punishment. Better to fall on the sword than be pushed...but he still took the Flame Strike in the end.
I'm not entirely clear on whether a flame strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm) would actually kill Durkon, though? Resurrection restores full hit points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm), and a sturdy dwarven cleric in his mid-teen-levels would probably have more than 15d6 HP.

...it's not the same as killing in the real world, but it is the same as breaking some bones: it fixes eventually, but takes a lot of time and effort to recover fully...

Hilgya's reaction was overly violent, which is something she does a lot. Death being impermanent in the OotS-verse is a flimsy excuse. Breaking someone's arm isn't permanent in our world, but that doesn't make breaking someone's arm an appropriate response in most situations.

And no, her being able to bring him back does not mitigate this. She's costing him levels, causing him incredible pain, and oh right, committing murder. It'd be like some wealthy person beating someone to a bloody pulp, but then paying for the person's corrective surgery afterwards.
Bruce Wayne funds a wide variety (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqfQ5swKEss) of community rehab programs.

I will just say it is... interesting to hear a general consensus that killing someone with trivial access to resurrection services is more analogous to breaking bones in our world. Huh. Fascinating.

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 01:53 PM

Please don't confuse real-life morality with D&D morality.

In Dungeons and Dragons, you can freely murder people of an opposing alignment and get XP for it, and still be considered "good". It's already been deconstructed in On the Origin of PCs.

the point of deconstructing it was exactly to move past it. what's the point of a deconstruction otherwise?

Ruck

2018-12-19, 01:59 PM

my pet theory is that he saw hilgya coming to battle and he came to the completely wrong conclusion that she was trying to save him, possibly because she was still in love with him.

A completely reasonable theory given his dialogue in panel 10.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 02:05 PM

the point of deconstructing it was exactly to move past it. what's the point of a deconstruction otherwise?

It's a literary technique that takes something apart to better understand it by examining what makes it tick and what does not hold up to scrutiny.

Or if you google, "conducting readings of texts with an ear to what runs counter to the intended meaning or structural unity of a particular text"

In either case, it definitely does not mean "D&D morality can be ignored because it got deconstructed"

Grey Wolf

JonahFalcon

2018-12-19, 02:12 PM

Nope. A Chaotic Neutral person who "freely murders" Lawful Neutral people won't rapidly gravitate to Good, but to Evil.

"Opposed alignment" is not enough of a reason for people who take their non-evil alignment seriously, to kill.

Would the adventurers that Roy and Durkon were with suffer alignment loss for killing the creatures waiting outside the village even though they were just waiting early in line for concert tickets?

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 02:13 PM

Would the adventurers that Roy and Durkon were with suffer alignment loss for killing the creatures waiting outside the village even though they were just waiting early in line for concert tickets?

Yes, yes they would. How is this even a question?

Grey Wolf

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 02:19 PM

Yes, yes they would. How is this even a question?
It's pretty clearly presented as Evil behaviour, but it's not entirely obvious it would cause alignment shift, because nothing about D&D's alignment system is precise enough in either it's reasoning or pegging of magnitude to allow that determination.

A more useful way to frame it might be to say "if you're even considering doing this, you're already Evil", except that humans can be highly selective in both their murderous and prosocial impulses. So it all comes down to GM adjudication, basically.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 02:22 PM

It's pretty clearly presented as Evil behaviour, but it's not entirely obvious it would cause alignment shift, because nothing about D&D's alignment system is precise enough in either it's reasoning or pegging of magnitude to allow that determination.

Fiendish Codex 2 provided "precise pegging of magnitude" for a number of acts, at least. Murder being one of them. For example, A Lawful character who commits 2 or more murders is "bound for the 9 hells" until they atone, even if they have committed no other Corrupt acts.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 02:22 PM

It's pretty clearly presented as Evil behaviour, but it's not entirely obvious it would cause alignment shift, because nothing about D&D's alignment system is precise enough in either it's reasoning or pegging of magnitude to allow that determination.

Sure, but I'm not claiming that they'd go from Good to Evil on this action alone. Just that such an action would count, in the aggregate tally, as Evil ("a blip in the evilometer"), and if they are indeed Good (an open question), they'd have had to do a considerable number of other acts that were Good to compensate for their racism this time.

Grey Wolf

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 02:23 PM

As much as I find a lot of the defense of Hilgya unnecessary and kind of worrisome, is another thread about this really necessary?

Having said that, I'm probably now going to sound like a total hypocrite by letting my thoughts be known on a few things relating to this situation:

First of all, people keep saying that Durkon didn't "let Hilgya get a word in edgewise", but if you actually look at the strip, she never attempts to say anything after he starts talking. She seems pretty fine just listening to him until he's done to wait to say (or act, I guess) on whatever she's decided.

Secondly, I get the feeling that Durkon hadn't even processed the others were around, which is probably why we didn't see them until the last panel. Doesn't really make it a good time, but I think given all the thoughts in his head it would make sense.

Third, while Durkon is rushing, I can't help but feel like a lot of people are ignoring exactly how fast Hilgya herself was willing to get into a relationship with him. Seriously, right before they split ways she told him she loved him (or at least thought she might).

Fourth, I will never not find the "death isn't permanent so it's not a big deal" placation not problematic. First of all, even for most people in this universe death is permanent. And secondly, Durkon's being resurrected is entirely in the hands of the person who killed him. That is not okay. And someone who would go "I can just undo it so don't worry" shows a level of callousness that I'm honestly surprised more people haven't commented on in the on-going alignment discussion.

All this being said, I still wouldn't be surprised if Hilgya isn't Chaotic Evil. I don't think she needs to be in order to be a terrible person, and whatever her alignment is actually supposed to be, I'm pretty sure "terrible person" is exactly what we're supposed to think of her.

Mordar

2018-12-19, 02:25 PM

Nope. A Chaotic Neutral person who "freely murders" Lawful Neutral people won't rapidly gravitate to Good, but to Evil.

"Opposed alignment" is not enough of a reason for people who take their non-evil alignment seriously, to kill.

I don't know that I believe that first part, if only given the alignment you chose as the murderer. Any number of reasons would settle nicely with CN as justification for killing. That's why (IMO) it is such a shelter for murderhobos and the like. Also a big part of why I'm torn on Hilgya CN vs CE...

However, I do very much agree with the sentiment for Lawfuls and Goods.

I'm not entirely clear on whether a flame strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm) would actually kill Durkon, though? Resurrection restores full hit points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm), and a sturdy dwarven cleric in his mid-teen-levels would probably have more than 15d6 HP.

Ah, but you forget to account for Rule of Funny. And there are probably enough real rules that would allow the opportunity for a non-Maximized, non-Empowered FS to reach high enough totals to tap him out.

- M

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 02:30 PM

Any number of reasons would settle nicely with CN as justification for killing. That's why (IMO) it is such a shelter for murderhobos and the like.

IMO this has more to do with the players than the rules. CN characters played well, should be exactly as "respectful of life" as TN characters or LN characters.

Just as an LN character doesn't normally walk around hunting for CN characters to murder, so a CN characters doesn't normally walk around hunting for LN characters to murder. They're not mortal enemies intrinsically.

JonahFalcon

2018-12-19, 02:33 PM

First of all, people keep saying that Durkon didn't "let Hilgya get a word in edgewise", but if you actually look at the strip, she never attempts to say anything after he starts talking.

She started to say something and Durkon told her to be quiet. Rather than make a big deal, she just mentally counted to 100 and offered her "rebuttal".

Please don't say "she never attempts to say anything after he starts talking". Oh, God. Please try that with anyone in real life and see if you don't earn a black eye.

It's called "bull-rushing".

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 02:36 PM

She started to say something and Durkon told her to be quiet. Rather than make a big deal, she just mentally counted to 100 and offered her "rebuttal".

Please don't say "she never attempts to say anything after he starts talking". Oh, God. Please try that with anyone in real life and see if you don't earn a black eye.

Um.... how is that different from what I said. If she never tries to talk again, she didn't try to talk again. That is factually what happened.

Nice comment on what I'll "earn", by the way. There was also no "be quite".

CriticalFailure

2018-12-19, 02:37 PM

It seems plausible that she's not strictly Evil in alignment simply because the universe is comedically exaggerated and Neutral aligned characters (and even Good aligned ones) can get away with a fair amount and keep their alignment, whereas a lot of the Evil aligned characters are just, like, *ridiculously* nefarious. Which makes all the arguments about real life morality all the sillier.

Does it really matter if the universe puts Hilgya in the Evil or Neutral box?

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 02:37 PM

She started to say something and Durkon told her to be quiet.

Durkon said "Wait!" not "Be Quiet!"

JonahFalcon

2018-12-19, 02:39 PM

Durkon said "Wait!" not "Be Quiet!"

Distinction without a difference.

Kish

2018-12-19, 02:40 PM

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 02:44 PM

Distinction without a difference.

The difference is her choosing to hear him out. Clearly there's no actual pressure for her to do so. But I guess that hurts your argument, so let's ignore that.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 02:50 PM

But I guess that hurts your argument, so let's ignore that.

That's a surprisingly popular tactic, I've noticed.

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 02:52 PM

It's a literary technique that takes something apart to better understand it by examining what makes it tick and what does not hold up to scrutiny.

Or if you google, "conducting readings of texts with an ear to what runs counter to the intended meaning or structural unity of a particular text"

In either case, it definitely does not mean "D&D morality can be ignored because it got deconstructed"

Grey Wolf

ok, clarification accepted; but deconstructing the alignments shows that "murderhobos can be lawful good as long as they only bump uglies" is one of the thingds that does not hold to scrutiny. and oots moved past it.

Please don't say "she never attempts to say anything after he starts talking". Oh, God. Please try that with anyone in real life and see if you don't earn a black eye.

I don't know what kind of people you hang around with in real life. Me, I'm a high schoool teacher, so I deal with a lot of kids, many of whom are quite impulsive and/or immature compared to your average joe.
But I've never seen anyone getting punched for interrupting or for being vaguely rude.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 02:54 PM

Yes, this. CN is a shelter for murderhobos because DMs who would protest "but you're allegedly good" or "but you need some reason for this random killing, and if it's pure greed that makes you evil" are less likely to press the issue if the player can respond, "Dude, I'm, like, super random!"--not because those DMs would have any less ground to stand on if they did choose to fight the issue.

I'd speculate that the reason so many intelligent CN monsters have a wide streak of murderhobo toward most things they encounter, is a holdover from Gygaxian-era "Good and Law are associated" "Chaos and Evil are associated".

Early D&D might have paid lip service to the existence of Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil - but it didn't really come across as serious about it.

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 02:54 PM

That's a surprisingly popular tactic, I've noticed.

Yeah, related, I've noticed two general extremes when it comes to Hilgya.

The first is that she's a horrible person, full stop, and nothing about her history or the context she finds herself in the story matters.

The second is because in many ways she can work as an analogue for issue that many real life women face, that means that things she does are, if not okay, no where near as bad as in real life, and also through in some "this is D&D" to reduce any fault she may have for her actions even more.

Personally, I've been trying to with "Yeah, context does make Hilgya at least somewhat sympathetic, but she still seems like she'd be a terrible person even outside of the bad things" And, I think that's okay. Bad things don't just happen to bad people, and being a bad person doesn't mean something like being forced into a marriage against your will is suddenly okay.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 02:59 PM

It seems plausible that she's not strictly Evil in alignment simply because the universe is comedically exaggerated and Neutral aligned characters (and even Good aligned ones) can get away with a fair amount and keep their alignment, whereas a lot of the Evil aligned characters are just, like, *ridiculously* nefarious.

We have Word of Giant that Hilgya was Evil from War & XPs commentary. As such, to make a convincing argument that Hilgya is no longer Evil - has become a better person offscreen - for me, means showing that she's a better person in her recent strips, than she was in Dungeon Crawling Fools.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 03:00 PM

ok, clarification accepted; but deconstructing the alignments shows that "murderhobos can be lawful good as long as they only bump uglies" is one of the thingds that does not hold to scrutiny. and oots moved past it.

Oh, I never disagreed with you; I just clarified the meaning of the term. I like it, because it makes me think of taking apart a watch to see the insides... while still managing to get it to chime the hours.

bump uglies

Please, please tell me that this was intentional and that you know what this normally means.

Grey Wolf

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 03:02 PM

The second is because in many ways she can work as an analogue for issue that many real life women face, that means that things she does are, if not okay, no where near as bad as in real life, and also through in some "this is D&D" to reduce any fault she may have for her actions even more.

I wonder if we could link that to miko's paladinhoood:
just like miko was the worse way to be a paladin, then hilgya is the worst way to be a strong independent woman throwing off the chains of a patriarcal society. and just like hinjo and lien and o-chul are good role models of paladins, there are plenty of good role models of strong independent women in the comic.

Mordar

2018-12-19, 03:04 PM

IMO this has more to do with the players than the rules. CN characters played well, should be exactly as "respectful of life" as TN characters or LN characters.

Just as an LN character doesn't normally walk around hunting for CN characters to murder, so a CN characters doesn't normally walk around hunting for LN characters to murder. They're not mortal enemies intrinsically.

Yes, this. CN is a shelter for murderhobos because DMs who would protest "but you're allegedly good" or "but you need some reason for this random killing, and if it's pure greed that makes you evil" are less likely to press the issue if the player can respond, "Dude, I'm, like, super random!"--not because those DMs would have any less ground to stand on if they did choose to fight the issue.

I absolutely agree that it is a shelter because of the players...I do not support the practice but we have all seen in represented with enough frequency to know it exists.

I don't agree with the "played well" and "respectful of life" elements, however, because I don't think that it is a defined component of the 9-alignment system (at least not back when I was playing in that sandbox). You could have a CN that values life highly, a LN that places little value on life and a TN that considers life just another component of the great wheel. However, that doesn't undercut your point (I think) that the vast majority of Murderhobos are not what we would consider well played anything...other than murderhobos.

On the topic of opposite alignment bloodfueds...when did that become a thing? Sure, LGs will really dislike CEs...but that's because of the CE actions, not the alignment flag...but I don't think I've ever heard about this before.

- M

Peelee

2018-12-19, 03:06 PM

ok, clarification accepted; but deconstructing the alignments shows that "murderhobos can be lawful good as long as they only bump uglies" is one of the thingds that does not hold to scrutiny. and oots moved past it.Please, please tell me that this was intentional and that you know what this normally means.

Grey Wolf

Conversely, King of Nowhere, please tell me this is how you run your campaigns, because that's hilarious.

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
bump uglies

Please, please tell me that this was intentional and that you know what this normally means.

Grey Wolf

I was referring to strip 212 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html) when Haley refers to roy's decision to follow miko as "bump uglies with the paladin". thus it was a reference on the prime example of one such technically LG murderhobo.
Plus it was also a reference on how evil monsters are all ugly (except succubi), which goes into the "color coded for your convenience", which is a way the game creators encouraged murderhobo thinking - or catered to players already prone to it.

basically, i was aiming for a couple of subtle literary/geek references with those two words. I don't know if it has any other meaning - I'm fluent in english, but it's not my mother language, and so there are many rethorical figures or cultural items I ignore. EDIT: although now I'm getting a feeling it has to be one of the many euphamism for sex, isn't it?

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 03:09 PM

I don't agree with the "played well" and "respectful of life" elements, however, because I don't think that it is a defined component of the 9-alignment system (at least not back when I was playing in that sandbox).

Good implies respect for life, Evil implies disrespect for life, Neutral strikes a balance between the two - basically "some respect for life, but not as much as Good characters have":

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Neutral, "Undecided"
A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 03:09 PM

Conversely, King of Nowhere, please tell me this is how you run your campaigns, because that's hilarious.

Thor damnit, Peelee, you almost made me laugh out loud in the middle of the office. I had to stiffle it. That crap hurts.

I don't know if it has any other meaning
It's another way of saying "to have sex with"

Grey Wolf

Kish

2018-12-19, 03:09 PM

"Bump uglies" is a slang term for "have sex." Haley was saying snidely that Roy was motivated by wanting to have sex with Miko.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 03:10 PM

I was referring to strip 212 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html) when Haley refers to roy's decision to follow miko as "bump uglies with the paladin". thus it was a reference on the prime example of one such technically LG murderhobo.
Plus it was also a reference on how evil monsters are all ugly (except succubi), which goes into the "color coded for your convenience", which is a way the game creators encouraged murderhobo thinking - or catered to players already prone to it.

basically, i was aiming for a couple of subtle literary/geek references with those two words. I don't know if it has any other meaning - I'm fluent in english, but it's not my mother language, and so there are many rethorical figures or cultural items I ignore.

Bump uglies is a euphamism for having sex.

Look, if we're going to dissect the frog, may as well be as clinical as possible about it.

Fyraltari

2018-12-19, 03:11 PM

I was referring to strip 212 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html) when Haley refers to roy's decision to follow miko as "bump uglies with the paladin". thus it was a reference on the prime example of one such technically LG murderhobo.
Plus it was also a reference on how evil monsters are all ugly (except succubi), which goes into the "color coded for your convenience", which is a way the game creators encouraged murderhobo thinking - or catered to players already prone to it.

basically, i was aiming for a couple of subtle literary/geek references with those two words. I don't know if it has any other meaning - I'm fluent in english, but it's not my mother language, and so there are many rethorical figures or cultural items I ignore. EDIT: although now I'm getting a feeling it has to be one of the many euphamism for sex, isn't it?

Of course it is. It always is. Always. You could make an euphemism based on meteorological conditions and it will still be about sex.

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 03:11 PM

"Bump uglies" is a slang term for "have sex." Haley was saying snidely that Roy was motivated by wanting to have sex with Miko.

Great! i learned another subtlety of the english language, AND I got a subtle joke I missed all those years ago!

Liquor Box

2018-12-19, 03:11 PM

That's a REALLY uncharitable and biased take on what happened.

Durkon and Hilgya went on an adventure together. She backstabbed him (metaphorically) at Nale's order, then the pair worked together because they were in a dangerous location. She came on to him, and they had sex.

It's only after that where she reveals that she's married, and makes it clear that she holds views fundamentally incompatible with his own. Durkon was basically made an unwilling participant in adultery, and had every right to be angry. He makes his position clear about following the rules of his society and tells her that she should go be with her husband.

And yes, when he sees her again for the first time, he interrupts her so that he can get his say in first. Because for the first time in weeks, if not months, Durkon finally no longer a prisoner in his own body and can actually speak to his living friends. And he sees the expression on Hilgya's face and wants to try and head off an argument because he's had time to reflect on things. Heck, the first thing he says once given the chance is to APOLOGIZE to her.

Yes, Durkon has misread Hilgya, and proposing to her out of a sense of duty and dwarven societal obligation is the last thing she wants. But it's born from Durkon giving her every benefit of the doubt and sincerely trying to do the right thing, wanting to be there for his son and giving Hilgya a sincere chance for reform.

A simple "no" would have sufficed. Her punching him in the face would have been unwarranted but understandable to some degree. Her using DIVINE FIRE to MURDER HIM is the equivalent of ED209 from Robocop 1 blasting the poor guy during the live test until he's basically bloody Swiss cheese.

And no, her being able to bring him back does not mitigate this. She's costing him levels, causing him incredible pain, and oh right, committing murder. It'd be like some wealthy person beating someone to a bloody pulp, but then paying for the person's corrective surgery afterwards. Even if the person is restored to 100% with no side effects, guess what? The rich person is still going to be arrested for assault.

Hilgya is an extremely selfish, evil individual that is long past due for some comeuppance. That people are defending her would surprise and disappoint me if there wasn't already something of a history of that sort of thing in the fandom.

There is a fair argument as to whether Durkon's actions when he first met Hilgya, and in this latest strip were optimal/justified or sub-optimal/unjustified. You and NerdyKris set those arguments out. But wherever one lands on the Durkon debate it seems to me to be untenable to suggest that anything Durkon did was evil - at worst slightly selfish or rude.

Hilgya on the other hand appears to me to clear have done some things that are in-arguably evil, including killing Durkon in the latest strip. While death not being permanent in OotS probably does make murder less of a crime in that world, it is still analogous to a very bad beating requiring hospitalisation. It still causes all the pain one would expect from death, it still requires $$$ to remedy (analogous to hospital costs) and it still takes time to recover from and the possibility you will never be the same again (the loss of level or point of constitution). To me it is inarguably a grossly disproportionate act, and evil to give someone a vicious beating for having spurned you a year ago, and having just interrupted you.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 03:13 PM

Thor damnit, Peelee, you almost made me laugh out loud in the middle of the office. I had to stiffle it. That crap hurts.

I choose to believe that's a regular occurance with most posters who read my material, but I very much appreciate knowing it when it's true. I'll be here all week!

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 03:15 PM

Of course it is. It always is. Always. You could make an euphemism based on meteorological conditions and it will still be about sex.

"Mind you, the Elizabethans had so many words for the female genitals that it is quite hard to speak a sentence of modern English without inadvertently mentioning at least three of them."
~Terry Pratchett

Great! i learned another subtlety of the english language, AND I got a subtle joke I missed all those years ago!

And you got at least one supposedly grown up person to giggle to tears in the middle of the office. All in all, quite the accomplishment.

Grey Wolf

RatElemental

2018-12-19, 03:28 PM

Ah, but you forget to account for Rule of Funny. And there are probably enough real rules that would allow the opportunity for a non-Maximized, non-Empowered FS to reach high enough totals to tap him out.

- M

If it dealt more than 50 damage it would incur a fort save against massive damage, resulting in immediate death regardless of remaining hitpoints on a failure.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 03:36 PM

If it dealt more than 50 damage it would incur a fort save against massive damage, resulting in immediate death regardless of remaining hitpoints on a failure.

Yup. The Class & Geekery thread suggests Durkon's CON is probably at least 12, but provides no guarantee of the exact figure. A 14th level cleric (Greg/Durkula was at least 15th level, being able to cast Symbol of Death, and Durkon is 1 level lower): has a Fort save modifier of +9:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

so: +10 (1 point for the CON of probably 12) is the likely modifier.

Fort Save for massive damage is DC15.

Durkon needs to roll 1, 2, 3 or 4 to fail it - has a 20% probability of doing so.

That's enough that it's not all that improbable.

Fyraltari

2018-12-19, 03:36 PM

And you got at least one supposedly grown up person to giggle to tears in the middle of the office. All in all, quite the accomplishment.

Grey Wolf

https://media.giphy.com/media/yr134k1o3UdBC/giphy.gif

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 04:09 PM

Fort Save for massive damage is DC15.

OK, so I just verified that that is correct, but that feels silly. Shouldn't the DC scale up with damage? Like the concentration check?

Grey Wolf

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 04:11 PM

OK, so I just verified that that is correct, but that feels silly. Shouldn't the DC scale up with damage?

There's variant rules for that, but it's not standard:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm

If both the CON based threshold and the DC scaling variants were used, Durkon (if CON 12) could be looking at a DC 23 Fort save even if the Flame Strike spell only does the average amount of damage.

Kish

2018-12-19, 04:34 PM

If it scaled up, then a non-scaling amount of damage would remain a serious threat to characters who were supposed to be far beyond it. 50 damage in one hit is only supposed to be "massive" to characters to whom a DC 15 Fortitude save is a serious concern; to Roy at this point, taking 50 damage in one hit is called "a standard combat round."

Ruck

2018-12-19, 04:35 PM

"Mind you, the Elizabethans had so many words for the female genitals that it is quite hard to speak a sentence of modern English without inadvertently mentioning at least three of them."
~Terry Pratchett
There's nothing quite like a piece of pie in a country house.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 04:39 PM

There's nothing quite like a piece of pie in a country house.

Let's keep this discussion PG-13, please.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 04:40 PM

If it scaled up, then a non-scaling amount of damage would remain a serious threat to characters who were supposed to be far beyond it.

Yup. That's why it's a variant, intended for more "gritty" games, and not the standard rules.

It really depends on which threshold is being used as to whether the variant is very harsh on high level characters.

If the threshold is 50 rather than CON score, then it ends up being a bit less harsh. Then, it would be DC 15 for 50-59 damage, DC 17 for 60-69 damage, DC 19 for 70-79 damage, and so on.

Cazero

2018-12-19, 05:05 PM

There's nothing quite like a piece of pie in a country house.
There is naught, nor ought there be, nothing so exalted on the face of gods grey Earth as that prince of foods...
The muffin !

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 05:41 PM

There is naught, nor ought there be, nothing so exalted on the face of gods grey Earth as that prince of foods...
The muffin !

so... i learned a new english metaphor for sex, i understood an old oots joke that escaped me, I caused grown ups to giggle in their offices, and now it seems I have also derailed the thread. My accompishments are accruing at an alarming rate

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-19, 05:43 PM

Does it really matter if the universe puts Hilgya in the Evil or Neutral box? No, it does not. Except to a few rabid posters on these forums.

Dion

2018-12-19, 05:50 PM

There is naught, nor ought there be, nothing so exalted on the face of gods grey Earth as that prince of foods...
The muffin !

I hate numbing uglies with muffins.

Cranberries get everywhere.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 05:52 PM

I wonder if we could link that to miko's paladinhood:
just like miko was the worse way to be a paladin, then hilgya is the worst way to be a strong independent woman throwing off the chains of a patriarcal society...
I would have hoped it was clear by now that the story actually has several examples of 'paladins' who were substantially worse than Miko.

I'll agree that Hilgya is a fairly awful person, but if she's supposed to be some caricature/critique of third-wave-feminism that's honestly just offensive.

Fyraltari

2018-12-19, 05:55 PM

I'll agree that Hilgya is a fairly awful person, but if she's supposed to be some caricature/critique of third-wave-feminism that's honestly just offensive.
It's kind of ridiculous to think she is, if you ask me.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 06:02 PM

I would have hoped it was clear by now that the story actually has several examples of 'paladins' who were substantially worse than Miko.

All of which only appear in prequels.

"Arguably one of the worst ways to play a paladin" was the phrase The Giant used.

King of Nowhere

2018-12-19, 06:15 PM

I would have hoped it was clear by now that the story actually has several examples of 'paladins' who were substantially worse than Miko.

where are them? sure, the old sapphire guard we saw in the o-chul bonus story were pretty bad, but i don't know if they qualify for miko-bad. anyway, it's not a challenge; miko was a terrible paladin. that she was actually trying to be what she perceived as a good paladin only adds tragedy to it.

I'll agree that Hilgya is a fairly awful person, but if she's supposed to be some caricature/critique of third-wave-feminism that's honestly just offensive.

i didn't imply that she was, just like miko was not a caricature/critique of paladins. not everything with women in it has to be about feminism, in fact most of it is not.

let's try a different phrasing: miko did, technically, possess the key virtues associated with paladins. she was still a terrible person. similarly, hilgya does possess the key virtues of a strong female role model, but she is still a terrible person. i guess you could still read it as a charicature if you wanted, but any bad person with redeeming qualities may be taken as a charicature of those redeeming qualities with enough stretching. heck, belkar does what he wants, he may be taken as a charicature of "the man who never has to ask" (if I'm correctly pharaphrasing the figure of speech)

in fact, i hope her gender doesn't come into play in it. which i'll have to see how the narrative goes on; if she get treated differently than a man who chased his ex girlfriend and sent her to the hospital on account of her being a woman, or if the rest of the order justify her on account of "durkon had brought it upon himself", then it would be a horrible double standard (violence is ok if it's female on male). but judging from the faces of the oots members, the narrative isn't likely to go that way.
yesterday i reacted badly to the comic because it already is a double standard - i really doubt rich would make a gag out of a girl being beaten by a scorned ex - but it's only a very slight double standard as long as the violence is not condoned.

Kish

2018-12-19, 06:17 PM

Also, several? I can think of two. Gin-Jun and Guy-Who-Called-Roy-Ray.

You could argue that all the paladins who participated in the Redcloak's Village massacre qualify, but...that hinges on the assumption that Miko, had she been enough older to be there at the time, would not have participated.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 06:24 PM

You could argue that all the paladins who participated in the Redcloak's Village massacre qualify, but...that hinges on the assumption that Miko, had she been enough older to be there at the time, would not have participated.

Ya know, I never thought about that, but yeah. I have zero reason to believe Miko would not have been a willing participant.

Ruck

2018-12-19, 06:24 PM

I would have hoped it was clear by now that the story actually has several examples of 'paladins' who were substantially worse than Miko.

I'll agree that Hilgya is a fairly awful person, but if she's supposed to be some caricature/critique of third-wave-feminism that's honestly just offensive.

It's kind of ridiculous to think she is, if you ask me.

I don't see any reason to think she is at all.

On the other hand, Miko is clearly not only the worst paladin in the comic, but the worst sapient being, and is 100% being tortured in the Nine Hells right now.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 06:27 PM

I don't see any reason to think she is at all.

I didn't see any reason to think Malack was an allegory for homosexuality, and yet. People see what they wanna see sometimes.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 06:31 PM

I have zero reason to believe Miko would not have been a willing participant.

There is the "Miko would personally have scanned the black dragon, rather than just assuming it to be Evil" The Giant post (eaten by the forum long ago), but it doesn't necessarily rule out similar behaviour to those paladins.

Especially when she's been told in the past that it's OK to kill nonevil beings, if they're helping to further the goals of Evil ones.

Ruck

2018-12-19, 06:32 PM

Malack was an allegory for homosexuality

https://media1.tenor.com/images/c83a53ac16d89eb3b4a93f773510e41c/tenor.gif

Peelee

2018-12-19, 06:34 PM

https://media1.tenor.com/images/c83a53ac16d89eb3b4a93f773510e41c/tenor.gif

It's my go-to for "most ridiculous theory I've seen seriously proposed on the forum." Sadly, even that gets contenders.

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 06:34 PM

So, is this thread about Hilgya going to get turned into a thread about Miko? Or will the two converge into a bubble of the most pointlessly circular discussion?

Peelee

2018-12-19, 06:41 PM

So, is this thread about Hilgya going to get turned into a thread about Miko?

Whoah, déjà vu.

Kish

2018-12-19, 06:42 PM

I would like to propose that the entire idea that Hilgya has anything to do with feminism should be burned to ashes, then sealed in a lead-lined coffin from which Greg would not have been able to escape, then dropped into the deepest part of the ocean.

Ariko

2018-12-19, 06:47 PM

Peelee

2018-12-19, 06:49 PM

But surely there are ways to destroy them without poisoning the fish?

The coffin is only lined with lead. The exterior is made out of gold. Nice, inert gold.

Doug Lampert

2018-12-19, 07:06 PM

The coffin is only lined with lead. The exterior is made out of gold. Nice, inert gold.

Someone salvage it to get the gold and let the contents loose. You know they will.

Sealed evil in a can needs to be sealed in a good can material! So, the outside is aluminum, it isn't corrosion proof, but it corrodes so quickly and thoroughly that the thin layer of corrosion protects the bulk of the aluminum. (Aluminum forms a 10 angstrom or so thick layer of Al2O3 effectively instantly when exposed to air or water. Al2O3 is also known as corundum, and is what rubies and sapphires are mostly made of. It's stable.)

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 07:07 PM

i didn't imply that she was, just like miko was not a caricature/critique of paladins. not everything with women in it has to be about feminism, in fact most of it is not...
Your specific phrasing about 'throwing off the patriarchy' is rather less vague than merely having an independent female character in the story.

(FWIW, I do think the 'sexy shoeless god of war' handling of Belkar is mildly disturbing. You know, how he sure loves pawing women, and he sure loves physically violating other sentient beings, but I'm sure he'd never ever combine the two.)

There is the "Miko would personally have scanned the black dragon, rather than just assuming it to be Evil" The Giant post (eaten by the forum long ago), but it doesn't necessarily rule out similar behaviour to those paladins.
Unless Redcloak's infant sister scanned as totes evil, and the commander who ordered her extermination somehow knew this in advance, it kinda does. The only evidence that Miko would have done likewise comes from the same comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html) where she talks about the moral imperative of public philanthropy. On balance I'd say she's ahead.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 07:08 PM

Someone will dig it up to get the gold. You know they will.

Which is why we need to contaminate the silver market to artificially raise the price so it outpaces gold in value.

Kish

2018-12-19, 07:10 PM

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 07:12 PM

Unless Redcloak's infant sister scanned as totes evil, and the commander who ordered her extermination somehow knew this in advance, it kinda does.

Gin-Jun's speech to Miko about how even non-evil goblins are helping further Evil goblin society, and therefore she shouldn't worry about her lack of Detect Evil (and her agreement with his advice), does raise the possibility that Miko won't rely on Detect Evil as a "who to kill" measure, and will kill non-evil beings as well.

Aveline

2018-12-19, 07:14 PM

Breaking someone's arm isn't permanent in our world, but that doesn't make breaking someone's arm an appropriate response in most situations.

Well, the moment has passed, but this kind of analogy has been coming up a bit lately so I'd still like to clarify that breaking someone's arm will, most likely, have permanent consequences that impact quality of life.

This is true of pretty much any injury that demands medical attention.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 07:14 PM

Based on Miko's demonstrated behavior in the strip where her face was first shown, it would be more accurate to say that if one goblin in the first group of three she bothers to scan shows as evil, she would then throw herself into slaughtering the lot without hesitation or any further scanning.
Sure. If she had multiple eye-witnesses describing goblin atrocities in the region, up to the point where her smites didn't work, at which point she would actually have listened to their screams of anguish and sorted out their story.

As opposed to Roy, who would apparently ambush them in their sleep.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 07:16 PM

Sure. If she had multiple eye-witnesses describing goblin atrocities in the region, up to the point where her smites didn't work

A paladin only gets a very few smites every day. So they will save those for their most powerful enemies.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 07:20 PM

Gin-Jun's speech to Miko about how even non-evil goblins are helping further Evil goblin society...
Yes, I am aware the contemporary version of Miko is canonically someone who reflexively butchers usually-evil groups. I am equally aware that the author once had quite different ideas as to what kind of person she was, and took time to tell his audience as much. Take it as given that I am referring strictly to the original flavour.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 07:24 PM

Yes, I am aware the contemporary version of Miko is canonically someone who reflexively butchers usually-evil groups.

When "one among them threatens the very fabric of existence itself", yes.

I am equally aware that the author once had quite different ideas as to what kind of person she was, and took time to tell his audience as much.

I don't think The Giant intended that lost quote, to be taken so seriously.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 07:26 PM

When "one among them threatens the very fabric of existence itself", yes.
Not the context (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?209073-Is-Durkon-Good&p=11507958&viewfull=1#post11507958) I had in mind.

I don't think The Giant intended that lost quote, to be taken so seriously.
Right, but the reflexive slaughter of black dragons should be taken in deadly earnest. What was the phrase? "Other characters are allowed to randomly overreact for the sake of humour, but not her?"

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 07:27 PM

Not the context (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?209073-Is-Durkon-Good&p=11507958&viewfull=1#post11507958) I had in mind.

That does shed light on Miko somewhat. And doesn't outright contradict anything previously stated about her.

It also shows that "species" isn't what matters - group is. Neutral people in an evil group, are fair game to her, for "furthering that evil group's goals".

Jasdoif

2018-12-19, 07:30 PM

Which is why we need to contaminate the silver market to artificially raise the price so it outpaces gold in value.No, no...for that to work, you'd have to set up a singular market for silver and that will take fiveever. Absent that, you'll have the contaminated market where people trade their silver for gold, and the other market(s) where they trade that gold for more silver than they started with; they'll try to get the gold for the latter.

The A solution is to launch the whole thing into the sun, since sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 07:30 PM

That does shed light on Miko somewhat. And doesn't outright contradict anything previously stated about her.
No, I think it kinda does. Miko cannot be both willing, and unwilling, to reflexively butcher usually-evil groups.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 07:32 PM

No, I think it kinda does. Miko cannot be both willing, and unwilling, to reflexively butcher usually-evil groups.

Miko is unwilling to butcher an individual based on species alone, when there's no obvious group to associate that individual with.

But perfectly willing to butcher an individual if they're in a group she's opposed to.

In any case, shouldn't the topic of Miko be kept to Miko threads - unless it impinges directly on the topic of Hilgya?

If we're going to talk about similarities or differences between Miko and Hilgya - fine.

If we're talking about Miko out of "Hilgya-related context" - take it to a different thread.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 07:36 PM

Miko is unwilling to butcher an individual based on species alone, when there's no obvious group to associate that individual with...
Hamish, you're not going to convince me that the author quietly jotted down to himself, at the time of Miko's introduction, that she was actually cool with species minorities but secretly a murderous nationalist. I think he was reacting with scorn and indignation to segments of his audience that hurled baseless insults at a character he did not intend to be seen as so villainous. And then, at some point, he changed his about what she was. And had originally been.

Ninja Dragon

2018-12-19, 07:36 PM

Hard to call that bet, I am on the fence ... perhaps in a few strips we'll have more to work with.

The apology was a good start (interrupting her maybe not the best move ever unless it had been "Thank You! for the Resurrection Spell") and the second half of his monologue was tone deaf. (But the more I think of it, it is still consistent with Durkon being Durkon) .

Hilgya overreacting: yep, bad form no matter how we slice it.
It wasn't necessary to kill him to get her point across. (I am pretty sure she did get her point across with that, though, in her heavy handed way).
While she non-chalantly pulls out the diamond and will doubtless revive Durkon, the message she just sent the rest of the Order is very clear:
I am a loose canon, and I am happy to kill an ally on a whim.
Hilgya will not be traveling with the order beyond Firmament. I suspect that she'll carry Kudzu with her wherever she goes, as her on screen utterances to date indicate that she's not giving the baby up.

Does Hilgya survive this encounter? Probably.
Chances of Belkar introducing Hilgya to Sabby Town: I'll bet the over on his attempt.
I think Roy will pull him off of her before he can kill her because Roy has got a vampire and an exarch to deal with, and a council, and a trip to the last gate, and she was of some help in defeating the Vampires in that last battle. That will count for something in Roy's book, I think.

Chances the whole order gangs up on her and kills her right here?
Very, very low. My gut feel is that Haley might not be averse to sticking her full of arrows, but is like Roy looking ahead to the next challenge.

Haley is Chaotic Good. She doesn't randomly murder people, especially not mothers with newborn babies in their sleep. I mean she did kill Crystal, but that was framed as a moment of character weakness from her, one that she is not likely to repeat.

The only members who would do that are V and Belkar, and V is on a path of redemption so I doubt that (Belkar is on a path of redemption too but he's a little too far down in the alignment chart to be averse to killing yet).

They are totally ditching Hilgya tho.

Fyraltari

2018-12-19, 07:36 PM

Is it me or do Hilgya threads turn into Miko treads faster than the others? They all eventually do, sure, but we're only four pages in, here.

Ninja Dragon

2018-12-19, 07:41 PM

This is a great discussion because Durkon was totally acting like a piece of crap and deserved a punch on the balls, yet Hilgya did overreact. Even if you assume she can raise him, being scorched to death can be considered the equivallent of torture, and there's no telling for sure if during the time between this raising or the next one, the room could be attacked again and they could lose Durkon's body, or have diamonds stolen.

I'd say she deserves criticism, but not outright being called a monster because she did not do it out of pure malice, and had a semi-justified reason for it.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 07:42 PM

Hamish, you're not going to convince me that the author quietly jotted down to himself, at the time of Miko's introduction, that she was actually cool with species minorities but secretly a murderous nationalist.

"Paladins of the Sapphire Guard used to wipe out groups who threaten gates" was established very early on:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 07:43 PM

I'd say she deserves criticism, but not outright being called a monster because she did not do it out of pure malice, and had a semi-justified reason for it.
This is what I believe, in the context of relationships, you might call a "Huge Red Flag".

Ninja Dragon

2018-12-19, 07:43 PM

Based on Miko's demonstrated behavior in the strip where her face was first shown, it would be more accurate to say that if one goblin in the first group of three she bothers to scan shows as evil, she would then throw herself into slaughtering the lot without hesitation or any further scanning.

She would not scan goblins.

She would murder them all, because goblins are an evil race, then murder whatever humans are with them because humans who help goblins are clearly evil.

Ninja Dragon

2018-12-19, 07:45 PM

This is what I believe, in the context of relationships, you might call a "Huge Red Flag".

I don't think those two have any chance at a relationship.

I'm more interested on the matter of "how evil was the thing she just did?"

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 07:46 PM

She would murder them all, because goblins are an evil race, then murder whatever humans are with them because humans who help goblins are clearly evil.

Not going by How The Paladin Got His Scar. "people who threaten the gates" are the group Miko considers need wiping out regardless of the alignment of individuals within the group.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-19, 07:48 PM

She would not scan goblins.

She would murder them all, because goblins are an evil race, then murder whatever humans are with them because humans who help goblins are clearly evil.

Not going by How The Paladin Got His Scar. "people who threaten the gates" are the group Miko considers need wiping out regardless of the alignment of individuals within the group.
No no, hamish, Ninja Dragon has the right of it. After all, we have always been at war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministries_of_Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_of_Truth) with The Crimson Mantle.

RatElemental

2018-12-19, 07:49 PM

I don't think those two have any chance at a relationship.

I'm more interested on the matter of "how evil was the thing she just did?"

The thing she just did, in this case, literally being murder.

That deserves a bit more than criticism.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 07:50 PM

I'm more interested on the matter of "how evil was the thing she just did?"

If I was using Fiendish Codex 2's Corruption Points system, I'd give her 5 - same as for any other "non-cold-blooded murder" - and not consider the mitigating factors quite enough to reduce it to 4.

hroþila

2018-12-19, 07:51 PM

Is it me or do Hilgya threads turn into Miko treads faster than the others? They all eventually do, sure, but we're only four pages in, here.
I just wish people would take this Miko discussion where it belongs: a thread about Andi.

Ninja Dragon

2018-12-19, 07:53 PM

The thing she just did, in this case, literally being murder.

That deserves a bit more than criticism.

Yes but the fact she knows she will bring him back shortly kind of twists regular real life morals. I don't say invalidates them, but I can't judge this with the same weight as someone who kills a person with the clear intent to make them stay dead.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-19, 07:54 PM

Sealed evil in a can needs to be sealed in a good can material!

Alternatively, sealed evil in can could be dropped into a nice, deep pool of, say, chlorine trifluoride.

Grey Wolf

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 07:56 PM

Yes but the fact she knows she will bring him back shortly kind of twists regular real life morals. I don't say invalidates them, but I can't judge this with the same weight as someone who kills a person with the clear intent to make them stay dead.

I mean, it's not as bad as compared to leaving him dead, I'll give it that, but it's still bad. And when you have so many people going "it's basically like slapping him so he deserved" I can't help but feel some people have some really screwed up standards.

RatElemental

2018-12-19, 07:59 PM

Yes but the fact she knows she will bring him back shortly kind of twists regular real life morals. I don't say invalidates them, but I can't judge this with the same weight as someone who kills a person with the clear intent to make them stay dead.

If someone in real life broke someon's arm because they intentionally hit them with a chair, would you take the fact that they brought materials to make a cast as a mitigating factor or evidence of premeditation?

Fyraltari

2018-12-19, 07:59 PM

I just wish people would take this Miko discussion where it belongs: a thread about Andi.

Nice one.

Alternatively, sealed evil in can could be dropped into a nice, deep pool of, say, chlorine trifluoride.

Grey Wolf

Escape velocity is where it's at. Enjoy immortality and indestructibility in the endless emptiness of space, monster!

Jasdoif

2018-12-19, 08:02 PM

I just wish people would take this Miko discussion where it belongs: a thread about Andi.Maybe it's because Andromeda doesn't have murder on her résumé for Disproportionate Response Administrator.

Sir_Norbert

2018-12-19, 08:18 PM

If someone in real life broke someon's arm because they intentionally hit them with a chair, would you take the fact that they brought materials to make a cast as a mitigating factor or evidence of premeditation?

Cute soundbite, but Ninja's point is that harming someone, whether premeditated or not, is a much lesser offence than permanently destroying them.

Aeson

2018-12-19, 08:25 PM

Maybe it's because Andromeda doesn't have murder on her résumé for Disproportionate Response Administrator.
Though she does arguably have Attempted Murder with a Mitigating Factor of it being done in the Heat of the Moment on there instead.

I know the OotS world works by an approximation of game mechanics and not real-world mechanics, but whether you hit some in the back of the head with a wrench hard enough to knock them unconscious or smite them with potentially-lethal holy fire, you're trying to kill them. I don't give Andi much credit for failing.

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 08:27 PM

Though she does arguably have Attempted Murder with a Mitigating Factor of it being done in the Heat of the Moment on there instead.

I know the OotS world works by an approximation of game mechanics and not real-world mechanics, but whether you hit some in the back of the head with a wrench hard enough to knock them unconscious or smite them with potentially-lethal holy fire, you're trying to kill them. I don't give Andi much credit for failing.

I mean, not really? Andi deserves a lot of crap, and if she had killed Bandana the blood definitely would have been on her hands, but saying she was actually trying to kill Bandana is just not true.

Hilgya, by contrast, was totally aware of what she was doing.

hamishspence

2018-12-19, 08:28 PM

Though she does arguably have Attempted Murder with a Mitigating Factor of it being done in the Heat of the Moment on there instead.

I know the OotS world works by an approximation of game mechanics and not real-world mechanics, but whether you hit some in the back of the head with a wrench hard enough to knock them unconscious or smite them with potentially-lethal holy fire, you're trying to kill them. I don't give Andi much credit for failing.

Agreed. Had Bandana actually died, "Heat of the moment" might downgrade it from "cold blooded murder" (6 corruption points) to "regular murder" (5 corruption points) but not necessarily past that.

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 08:31 PM

Cute soundbite, but Ninja's point is that harming someone, whether premeditated or not, is a much lesser offence than permanently destroying them.

Hilgya wouldn't be "permanently destroying" him either way because his soul would still exist.

I don't really understand the runaround with this. Yes, bringing him back to life is better than not, but she could have also like, just not killed him. All this "it basically amounts to a slap" talk that people keep going on about ignores she could have just actually slapped him (or an equivalent).

As others have said, killing someone in this universe is still a punishable crime, even if the person does end up getting revived.

Pax_Chi

2018-12-19, 08:34 PM

This is a great discussion because Durkon was totally acting like a piece of crap and deserved a punch on the balls,

No he was not, and no he did not. Apologizing to someone, wanting to be a good father and giving a woman who he shared something special briefly a second chance do not justify being called "a sack of crap" or being physically assaulted. Yes, Durkon grossly misread her there. But it was done from a sincere belief that people can be redeemed, that family is important and that one should honor his obligations.

And much like when they first met, he had no idea how antithetical to her belief system all of that is. Only when he turned her down, he simply said that her place was with her husband. When she turned him down, she incinerated him.

Which of these two is the one acting like "a piece of crap" again?

Peelee

2018-12-19, 08:40 PM

I'm more interested on the matter of "how evil was the thing she just did?"

Only as Evil as Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html). That seems like a fair comparison, right? So yeah. Just Tarquin-level Evil. No biggie.

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 08:41 PM

Pax_Chi

2018-12-19, 08:42 PM

Pax_Chi

2018-12-19, 08:44 PM

Someone else pointed this out (though I'm not sure who) but this is probably supposed to be a Xykon situation.

Yeah, her killing Durkon is supposed to be a joke but it's not condoning her behavior. People are expect to, and often life when Xykon commits atrocities. This is just another character acting in that fashion.

Bingo. I think the actual conflict here is less about what she did and more about the disagreement with those who are trying to justify, mitigate or condone her behavior and those who care about it enough to debate them on that point.

Lexible

2018-12-19, 09:00 PM

This isn't ending with Hilgya saying yes, this is ending with a life lesson for Durkon about how he treated her.

This. This so hard!

Aeson

2018-12-19, 09:03 PM

I mean, not really? Andi deserves a lot of crap, and if she had killed Bandana the blood definitely would have been on her hands, but saying she was actually trying to kill Bandana is just not true.
A wrench the size of the one that Andi was holding is a deadly weapon, and striking someone in the head with it demonstrates, at minimum, a reckless indifference to the potential that such an action has to kill the person struck. Fully aware of the consequences of her actions or not, if Andi's blow had killed Bandana, it would have been murder.

Peelee

2018-12-19, 09:04 PM

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 09:07 PM

A wrench the size of the one that Andi was holding is a deadly weapon, and striking someone in the head with it demonstrates, at minimum, a reckless indifference to the potential that such an action has to kill the person struck. Fully aware of the consequences of her actions or not, if Andi's blow had killed Bandana, it would have been murder.

It definitely would have been murder. I'm just saying killing Bandana wasn't the intent, because it wasn't. So saying Andi tried to kill Bandana isn't true.

Maybe not a distinction you care about, which I can understand, but it's still something I feel the need to note.

Rrmcklin

2018-12-19, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by NerdyKris
This isn't ending with Hilgya saying yes, this is ending with a life lesson for Durkon about how he treated her.

This. This so hard!

You know, probably, and that's sort of an interest bit. Lessons like this aren't normally conveyed through characters who are a terrible people. However, as with many things with Higya "just because she's a terrible person, doesn't mean this thing is okay" seems to be in affect.

I like that, but by the same token, that means people should stop trying to go "you know, Hilgya really isn't that terrible." because it's missing the point as well.

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-19, 09:43 PM

On the other hand, Miko is clearly not only the worst paladin in the comic, but the worst sapient being, and is 100% being tortured in the Nine Hells right now. Pretty sure that isn't correct (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), even if that might have been just ... since I don't see Windstriker dropping by the nine hells as fitting into that scene.

RatElemental

2018-12-19, 09:46 PM

I believe the correct term is "auto-wrench."

Sometimes I really wish I could upvote posts.

Ruck

2018-12-19, 09:51 PM

Pretty sure that isn't correct (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), even if that might have been just ... since I don't see Windstriker dropping by the nine hells as fitting into that scene.
No, it's definitely, 100%, the canon interpretation, in the same sense that someone (Dion maybe?) has established it as canon that Hilgya was married to Ivan to serve as his caretaker as her sentence for multiple murders.

I believe the correct term is "auto-wrench."
Also, who are Andi and Bandana? It's Bandi.

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-19, 09:53 PM

Haley is Chaotic Good. She doesn't randomly murder people, especially not mothers with newborn babies in their sleep. I mean she did kill Crystal, but that was framed as a moment of character weakness from her, one that she is not likely to repeat. Haley may not care for Hilgya at all, and was certainly the one to take everyone aside (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1106.html) when the re met her. She does not trust Hilgya.
Hilgya did a number on Roy with a flame strike as the battle previous to this ended, and they are both awake now. On the other hand, Haley (possessed/dominated) was already knocked out by then by Roy, so she may not be aware of how the battle ended. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html)We don't know what time has passed since they were all on the floor.

Watching Hilgya flame strike her good friend Durkon right in front of her (and let's give Haley credit, she's a good shot and not likely to hit Kudzu) may get a reaction that is pretty hostile. The problem is that we can't see her face to gauge her reaction, so she may not react that way, and may stay her hand (wait for a better shot) rather than react the way Belkar seems to want to.

Haley being CG has nothing to do with it. (Y'all really need to stop getting so wound up about alignment). Her friendship with Durkon will have in impact on her reaction ... we'll see.

No, it's definitely, 100%, the canon interpretation, in the same sense that someone (Dion maybe?) has established it as canon that Hilgya was married to Ivan to serve as his caretaker as her sentence for multiple murders.

Also, who are Andi and Bandana? It's Bandi. what this post is missing is blue text. :smallcool:

AceOfFools

2018-12-20, 01:45 AM

Well, the moment has passed, but this kind of analogy has been coming up a bit lately so I'd still like to clarify that breaking someone's arm will, most likely, have permanent consequences that impact quality of life.

This is true of pretty much any injury that demands medical attention.

That's exactly why people are using it. The level lost from being raised significantly impacts an adventurer's life thereafter.

The big mitigating factor in the morality if Hilgya's action, imo, is that it takes some significant luck for a single flamestrike to kill a dwarf cleric of Durkin's level. It's clearly forseeable, but probably not intended.

Continuing the arm-breaking metaphore, it's like her deliberately tripping him to cause him pain, and breaking his arm (and not caring about his resulting extra suffering because she volunteers to pay his medical bills). (The odds are better than breaking an arm with a deliberate trip, but not so high that death would be the expected result).

It's clearly a **** move, but not one I'd escalate things over given all the fate of the world stuff going on.

Emanick

2018-12-20, 04:07 AM

A wrench the size of the one that Andi was holding is a deadly weapon, and striking someone in the head with it demonstrates, at minimum, a reckless indifference to the potential that such an action has to kill the person struck. Fully aware of the consequences of her actions or not, if Andi's blow had killed Bandana, it would have been murder.

Actually, it would probably have been manslaughter. It’s not murder if there’s no intent to kill.

Regardless, in a world operating under D&D rules, Andi ought to know that hitting a mid-leveled character with a wrench will not kill them, full stop. Frankly, I’m still puzzled as to how she knocked Bandana unconscious in one blow, but maybe she has a feat or something, I dunno.

Haluesen

2018-12-20, 04:49 AM

Actually, it would probably have been manslaughter. It’s not murder if there’s no intent to kill.

Regardless, in a world operating under D&D rules, Andi ought to know that hitting a mid-leveled character with a wrench will not kill them, full stop. Frankly, I’m still puzzled as to how she knocked Bandana unconscious in one blow, but maybe she has a feat or something, I dunno.

Concerning the one-hit kill flame strike and the instant-KO wrench smack, I think this is a case of the Giant not always needing to rely on D&D rules. They are used fairly consistently and the world seems to operate on them, but sometimes rules must be cast aside for story/comedy (whichever applies) in a webcomic/other written media. At least, that is how I think the Giant is operating.

If the flame strike left Durkon alive but hurt then there would be different things to take away from the scene than if she killed him to callously resurrect him. And if it took multiple strikes with the wrench to knock out Bandana...well then the implications of what Andromeda was doing in that scene would be entirely different, it would be a lot more horrific, and there would probably be even more hate for her on these boards.

Mightymosy

2018-12-20, 05:13 AM

Of course it is. It always is. Always. You could make an euphemism based on meteorological conditions and it will still be about sex.

See, this is why I admire the French. Because appearantly they understand best what's important in life :-P

hamishspence

2018-12-20, 05:18 AM

Actually, it would probably have been manslaughter. It’s not murder if there’s no intent to kill.
Had Bandana died though, the onus would be on Andi to convince the jury of "lack of intent" - with the predictable deadliness of a blow to the head with a heavy metal object, telling against her.

Regardless, in a world operating under D&D rules, Andi ought to know that hitting a mid-leveled character with a wrench will not kill them, full stop. Frankly, I’m still puzzled as to how she knocked Bandana unconscious in one blow, but maybe she has a feat or something, I dunno.

Or got a Critical Hit and reduced Bandana to 0 HP exactly. Had Bandana been reduced to -1 hit point or less, she'd start Dying (losing 1 hp per round)- with Death coming at -10 hit points (unless she's lucky enough to pass a save to stop "bleeding").

Watching Hilgya flame strike her good friend Durkon right in front of her (and let's give Haley credit, she's a good shot and not likely to hit Kudzu) may get a reaction that is pretty hostile. The problem is that we can't see her face to gauge her reaction, so she may not react that way, and may stay her hand (wait for a better shot) rather than react the way Belkar seems to want to.

Haley being CG has nothing to do with it. (Y'all really need to stop getting so wound up about alignment). Her friendship with Durkon will have in impact on her reaction ... we'll see.

Makes sense to me.

deuterio12

2018-12-20, 06:24 AM

Watching Hilgya flame strike her good friend Durkon right in front of her (and let's give Haley credit, she's a good shot and not likely to hit Kudzu) may get a reaction that is pretty hostile.

Haley can't shoot Hylgia because her bowstring's been sundered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1123.html). Even if she had a spare one, those things take time to properly set up.

Plus take in account the following:

Hilgya with Evil Vampire Durkon:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/ryRoj.png "Oh you want me to join your side and help destroy the world? Sure thing!
Hold my cute lil Kudzu? Here you go!"

Hilgya with Good living Durkon:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/ryRoj.png: "KILL HIM! KILLL HIM WITH FIRE! BBBBUUURRRNNNN!!!! BECAUSE I'M RICH AND POWERFUL I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT TO OTHERS!"

hamishspence

2018-12-20, 06:31 AM

Haley can't shoot Hylgia because her bowstring's been sundered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1123.html). Even if she had a spare one, those things take time to properly set up.

Probably less than 10 minutes (the casting time of Resurrection) though, to re-string a bow.

And you can se that the string is on the bow in the last panel.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html

Morty

2018-12-20, 08:00 AM

Harbinger

2018-12-20, 08:20 AM

Man how did this thread end up talking about Miko. Miko was a much more interesting and better character than Hilgya but she’s been dead for like 700 strips.

Anyway wanting to kill someone you had a one night stand with and bringing your infant into a fight with vampires whose mind control you’re too dumb to resist is not a good look.

Also the fact that she just cost Durkon a level (making his ability to save the world that much less) over such a minor slight, especially when he took responsibility for what he did, is pretty nasty too.

Also also, everyone acting like Hilgya is some kind of feminist character (idk if I’m misinterpreting this or straw manning so if so I’m sorry) is missing the fact that most of her character is based her murderous obsession with a man who she knew for all of a day. I mean get over it girl

Peelee

2018-12-20, 08:24 AM

Actually, it would probably have been manslaughter. It’s not murder if there’s no intent to kill.

Intent follows the bullet. Or the wrench, in this case.

zimmerwald1915

2018-12-20, 09:24 AM

Had Bandana died though, the onus would be on Andi to convince the jury of "lack of intent" - with the predictable deadliness of a blow to the head with a heavy metal object, telling against her.
Practically speaking, sure, she'd have to tell a convincing story, but technically it would still be the state's burden to demonstrate Andi's men's rea.

Iruka

2018-12-20, 10:07 AM

Man how did this thread end up talking about Miko. Miko was a much more interesting and better character than Hilgya but she’s been dead for like 700 strips.

Because all roads lead to Miko. It is Mikos all the way down.

druid91

2018-12-20, 10:12 AM

She's a female dwarf who hasn't mentioned a partner. Obviously she's practically married to the male dwarf in the party already.

Isn't Minrah homosexual though?

Peelee

2018-12-20, 10:14 AM

Isn't Minrah homosexual though?

I don't think anything's been said in any direction about that.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 10:18 AM

I don't think anything's been said in any direction about that.

There was the "Thor is fine with that thing he knows Minrah wouldn't want revealed in front of Durkon" sentence, which a bunch of people who seemed to forget that in OotS being gay carries no social stigma, tend to interpret as "Oh, Minrah is in the closet".

It takes a lot of squinting, I'll grant you.

Grey Wolf

hroþila

2018-12-20, 10:44 AM

which a bunch of people who seemed to forget that in OotS being gay carries no social stigma
I think it was more disagreeing with this and less "forgetting" about it. *shrugs*

But there are enough debates being retreaded lately for me to want to get fully into that one again, so I'll just dip my toes.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 10:54 AM

I think it was more disagreeing with this and less "forgetting" about it. *shrugs*

But there are enough debates being retreaded lately for me to want to get fully into that one again, so I'll just dip my toes.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html) my (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html) evidence. The subject is treated with the matter-of-fact of a non-issue.

What is yours?

Grey Wolf

RatElemental

2018-12-20, 10:54 AM

Or got a Critical Hit and reduced Bandana to 0 HP exactly. Had Bandana been reduced to -1 hit point or less, she'd start Dying (losing 1 hp per round)- with Death coming at -10 hit points (unless she's lucky enough to pass a save to stop "bleeding").

Makes sense to me.

Being at 0 hitpoints doesn't knock you out, you're disabled which is a separate condition. Basically you can either move or do something else but not both, and doing anything but limping away will deal 1 damage and get you started dying.

Here's an in comic example. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html)

Plus take in account the following:

Hilgya with Evil Vampire Durkon:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/ryRoj.png "Oh you want me to join your side and help destroy the world? Sure thing!
Hold my cute lil Kudzu? Here you go!"

Hilgya with Good living Durkon:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/ryRoj.png: "KILL HIM! KILLL HIM WITH FIRE! BBBBUUURRRNNNN!!!! BECAUSE I'M RICH AND POWERFUL I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT TO OTHERS!"

I'm no fan of Hilgya, but I think it's a little unfair to portray being mind controlled as being perfectly on board with what was going on.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 10:57 AM

I'm no fan of Hilgya, but I think it's a little unfair to portray being mind controlled as being perfectly on board with what was going on.

When you are mind controlled, you can snap out of it when ordered to do something contrary to your nature. So at some level, she is fine with the idea of burning anyone that is not her and letting vampires use her baby as a shield.

Grey Wolf

RatElemental

2018-12-20, 10:58 AM

When you are mind controlled, you can snap out of it when ordered to do something contrary to your nature. So at some level, she is fine with the idea of burning anyone that is not her and letting vampires use her baby as a shield.

Grey Wolf

Unless she failed the additional will saves those things may or may not have prompted.

Kish

2018-12-20, 10:59 AM

While I stood against the people who kept insisting that she had to be getting additional saves because it's against her nature to be mind controlled, it's not established that she didn't get any additional saves either.

Of course, the more saves she got and failed, the worse her Will save, and correspondingly her Wisdom, must be.

Peelee

2018-12-20, 11:00 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 11:01 AM

Unless she failed the additional will saves those things may or may not have prompted.

Missing her initial one is plausible because she might have been spammed by multiple vampires, and thus failing a 10-20% chance would happen eventually. Failing the repeat check with a +2 every single time she got an order... yeah, I find that harder to swallow.

Grey Wolf

hroþila

2018-12-20, 11:07 AM

Mightymosy

2018-12-20, 11:13 AM

Samantha? Wow, there's a hot chick!

Evil, unfortuantely -:(

RatElemental

2018-12-20, 11:14 AM

Samantha? Wow, there's a hot chick!

Evil, unfortuantely -:(

Well she did have charisma as her casting stat, I think you're like, required to either be really hot or really funny if you have a high charisma.

Fyraltari

2018-12-20, 11:28 AM

Missing her initial one is plausible because she might have been spammed by multiple vampires, and thus failing a 10-20% chance would happen eventually. Failing the repeat check with a +2 every single time she got an order... yeah, I find that harder to swallow.

Grey Wolf

Unless memory fails me she only gets additional saves when ordered to do something against her nature and all she was ordered to do was attacking the Order and coming «*here*», not even handing her baby over. Since Dominated Elan and Haley attacked Roy as well, I don’t find Hilgya’s actions in this particular spot to be damning.

Aeson

2018-12-20, 11:32 AM

Actually, it would probably have been manslaughter. It’s not murder if there’s no intent to kill.
Second-degree or in some jurisdictions third-degree murder only requires a reckless disregard for someone's life.

Also, striking someone in the head with an iron or steel club the size of the wrench that Andi was holding demonstrates intent to kill. If Andi had "merely" meant to hurt Bandana badly, she'd have struck Bandana in the arm or in the body.

hamishspence

2018-12-20, 11:34 AM

Second-degree or in some jurisdictions third-degree murder only requires a reckless disregard for someone's life.

I thought third degree murder was the "alternate name" for voluntary manslaughter?

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 11:38 AM

not even handing her baby over.
So the baby ended up in Greg's arms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html) how, precisely?

Since Dominated Elan and Haley attacked Roy as well, I don’t find Hilgya’s actions in this particular spot to be damning.

People with poor bonuses to resist mental domination are not a good counter to "this person only would remain dominated if they rolled a 1 or 2 after every order they disagree with".

Grey Wolf

druid91

2018-12-20, 11:43 AM

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html) my (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html) evidence. The subject is treated with the matter-of-fact of a non-issue.

What is yours?

Grey Wolf

In your first example the other guard is surprised. And the mustachioed one even says he 'came out' the later two examples are the direct family of a good aligned main character (we can hardly have Durkons mother being prejudiced.) And a member of a chaotic good pirate crew.

A few more or less random people being accepting of it doesn't mean there is no stigma anywhere. Especially given the dwarves views on marriage as evidenced by Hilgya herself.

It doesn't have to be an instant "everyone will hate you for existing" for it to be something she's nervous about.

Aeson

2018-12-20, 11:44 AM

I thought third degree murder was the "alternate name" for voluntary manslaughter?
Depends on jurisdiction. For example, third-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter are distinct charges under Pennsylvania law, with third-degree murder carrying a maximum prison sentence of 40 years and voluntary manslaughter carrying a maximum prison sentence of 20 years.

Fyraltari

2018-12-20, 11:49 AM

So the baby ended up in Greg's arms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html) how, precisely?
He took him himself? She doesn't get a save if she's not ordered to do anything, does she?

People with poor bonuses to resist mental domination are not a good counter to "this person only would remain dominated if they rolled a 1 or 2 after every order they disagree with".

Grey Wolf
Granted, however attacking people is an adventurer's job. I'd be surprised if she got a save against attacking people she has no connection with, really.

hamishspence

2018-12-20, 11:50 AM

Depends on jurisdiction. For example, third-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter are distinct charges under Pennsylvania law, with third-degree murder carrying a maximum prison sentence of 40 years and voluntary manslaughter carrying a maximum prison sentence of 20 years.

Isn't that because 2nd degree murder has been replaced with felony murder though? The Pennsylvania version of third degree, seems almost synonymous with nearly everybody else's version of second degree murder.

In the context of OOTS, when Belkar says he was expecting to "go down for at least Murder 2" - it seems to me like he was talking about "non-premeditated murder" rather than felony murder.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

He also, much later, says "What a rip-off- I totally premeditated"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 11:53 AM

In your first example the other guard is surprised.
Surprised is not disapproval. It is surprise. I am not suggesting 50% of the population is gay, I am suggesting that the small percentage that is faces no backslash from it. You can still be surprised to come across a 5% chance event without being disapproving of said event.

And the mustachioed one even says he 'came out'
You seem to think this is some kind of point. It is not. Everyone comes out at some point. This doesn't magically give this knowledge to their future coworkers.

A few more or less random people being accepting of it doesn't mean there is no stigma anywhere
This is the root of why this position of yours is problematic. Yes, of course if you ignore all the evidence against it then there is no evidence either way, but you can't ignore all the evidence against it. When all evidence in the comic says that people are fine with homosexual relations, the conclusion is "people are fine with homosexual relations" not "I want more evidence". The latter is a fallacy.

Especially given the dwarves views on marriage as evidenced by Hilgya herself.
"The dwarves do forced marriages" is not antithetical to "the dwarves are fine with same-sex relations". Especially given we have evidence they are fine with them. Somewhere there might be a forced marriage between two dwarves of the same sex, based on the evidence of the comic.

So, I repeat: what is your evidence for your position, or are you intending to relay on "I shall ignore all evidence against it"?

ETA:

He took him himself? She doesn't get a save if she's not ordered to do anything, does she?

"Let go of your baby" seems to be a minimum. But "Give it over" seems far more likely, honestly.

Grey Wolf

Fyraltari

2018-12-20, 11:57 AM

"Let go of your baby" seems to be a minimum. But "Give it over" seems far more likely, honestly.

Grey Wolf

Why? She can't move on her own and she's not holding him. He literally has only to reach for him.

EDIT: It would be as easy as stealing a baby from candy.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 11:59 AM

Why? She can't move on her own and she's not holding him. He literally has only to reach for him.

Because I've used those baby carriers, and there is no getting the baby out without significant help from the person wearing it.

Grey Wolf

Peelee

2018-12-20, 12:09 PM

Because I've used those baby carriers, and there is no getting the baby out without significant help from the person wearing it.

Grey Wolf

That's arguable, to be fair. My baby carrier doesn't need the wearer to do anything but stand still if spouse wants the baby. The Korean one my MIL uses basically requires the wearer help.

Mordar

2018-12-20, 12:15 PM

Actually, it would probably have been manslaughter. It’s not murder if there’s no intent to kill.

Regardless, in a world operating under D&D rules, Andi ought to know that hitting a mid-leveled character with a wrench will not kill them, full stop. Frankly, I’m still puzzled as to how she knocked Bandana unconscious in one blow, but maybe she has a feat or something, I dunno.

Practically speaking, sure, she'd have to tell a convincing story, but technically it would still be the state's burden to demonstrate Andi's men's rea.

Felony Murder relieves them of that burden. If that is an element in that jurisdiction, of course.

This conversation really does make me wonder about the implementation of law in a D&D world. Clocking Person A in the head with a wrench is less bad than clocking Person B with the exact same wrench in the exact same situation with the exact same force because A is higher level than B? What a nightmare that would be. Lawyers would love it.

When you are mind controlled, you can snap out of it when ordered to do something contrary to your nature. So at some level, she is fine with the idea of burning anyone that is not her and letting vampires use her baby as a shield.

Similar to the Flame Strike one-shotting Durkon I think this falls under Rule of Drama...the sidelining of rules as written for the purpose of the story is well established (as is the frequency of failed saves, it seems) so at most I think the everyone-not-Roy being willing to attack Roy says less about Hilgya's willingness to burn not-Hilgya/Kudzu people to death (assuming that really is worse than daggering, arrowing or punning people to death...) than it does about the rules servicing the story.

- M

Aeson

2018-12-20, 12:27 PM

Isn't that because 2nd degree murder has been replaced with felony murder though? The Pennsylvania version of third degree, seems almost synonymous with nearly everybody else's version of second degree murder.
What point are you trying to make? "Second- or in some jurisdictions third-degree murder only requires a reckless disregard for someone's life" is a perfectly accurate statement when many jurisdictions call depraved-heart murder second-degree and some others call it third-degree.

AceOfFools

2018-12-20, 03:47 PM

"this person only would remain dominated if they rolled a 1 or 2 after every order they disagree with".

Grey Wolf

Are you seriously arguing "this cannot be because the odds of the dice falling that way are at most a few %"?

Rich has gone pretty far out of his way to establish how little the odds matter compared to the quality of the story.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 03:50 PM

Are you seriously arguing "this cannot be because the odds of the dice falling that way are at most a few %"?

Rich has gone pretty far out of his way to establish how little the odds matter compared to the quality of the story.

Yes, I am, because Rich has also said that he is stuck with the rules of the game.

So when given two explanations: 1) that Hilgya doesn't care about the rest of the order enough to trigger a second save and b) That it did trigger and she failed a ridiculously easy save, I find that Okham's Razor would pick the first.

Grey Wolf

AutomatedTeller

2018-12-20, 03:56 PM

It seems clear to me that Durkon offered to marry Hilgya because that is the lawful thing for a dwarf to do. I mean, I'm sure his apology was sincere. I doubt very much he thought he was going to get killed - there's literally no reason for him to think that, unless you think that Minrah said stuff to him about Hilgya that didn't show up in the comic, which seems unlikely.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 04:00 PM

I doubt very much he thought he was going to get killed - there's literally no reason for him to think that

And yet, he stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html) that she "almost certainly [had nefarious intentions for him]".

Grey Wolf

Ruck

2018-12-20, 04:23 PM

what this post is missing is blue text. :smallcool:

I like to think I'm a good enough writer to communicate sarcasm and snark even without the blue text. Alas, it seems as though I still have work to do on my craft.

Actually, it would probably have been manslaughter. It’s not murder if there’s no intent to kill.

Regardless, in a world operating under D&D rules, Andi ought to know that hitting a mid-leveled character with a wrench will not kill them, full stop. Frankly, I’m still puzzled as to how she knocked Bandana unconscious in one blow, but maybe she has a feat or something, I dunno.

Do we have any clarification at all about Bandana's level? I don't think we've seen her do anything combat-related (other than "also run from Crystal").

Haley can't shoot Hylgia because her bowstring's been sundered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1123.html). Even if she had a spare one, those things take time to properly set up.

Probably less than 10 minutes (the casting time of Resurrection) though, to re-string a bow.

And you can se that the string is on the bow in the last panel.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html

Isn't Minrah homosexual though?

There was the "Thor is fine with that thing he knows Minrah wouldn't want revealed in front of Durkon" sentence, which a bunch of people who seemed to forget that in OotS being gay carries no social stigma, tend to interpret as "Oh, Minrah is in the closet".

It takes a lot of squinting, I'll grant you.

Grey Wolf

There are times on this forum when I wonder if the readers of this comic read this comic.

Haluesen

2018-12-20, 04:45 PM

Yes, I am, because Rich has also said that he is stuck with the rules of the game.

So when given two explanations: 1) that Hilgya doesn't care about the rest of the order enough to trigger a second save and b) That it did trigger and she failed a ridiculously easy save, I find that Okham's Razor would pick the first.

Grey Wolf

You have quite a different understanding of Occam's Razor than I do. What matters more is the telling of a story. Sometimes D&D rules help facilitate that. Sometimes they get in the way. The Giant needed for Hilgya to be mind controlled for events in this story to unfold that way. So he either 1) has her fail to resist it because nefarious mind control powers, which is something that people who play D&D and those who don't will both understand or 2) he finds some tougher explanation in D&D rules to explain how someone that all D&D veterans knows should have an awesome Will save still fails a Will save. The first is simpler from a story-writing perspective.

Of course future comics may prove me wrong. Perhaps she trusts Durkon more than she is letting on (doubtful), or perhaps she cares about Kudzu less than she seems to (maybe) and so passing him to Vamp Durkon made sense. If the story reveals those then that's the answer. But from a speculative standpoint, her failing is just simpler to understand than her being even worse than we already know she is.

I like to think I'm a good enough writer to communicate sarcasm and snark even without the blue text. Alas, it seems as though I still have work to do on my craft.

There are times on this forum when I wonder if the readers of this comic read this comic.

I dunno, I think you actually have sarcasm nailed down well. :smallbiggrin: I personally just don't use sarcasm because I have not mastered the skills at it and would prefer not using blue text specifically for it. Blue test is pretty, I want to always use it.

And yeah, I pretty much wonder that all the time too. :smallsigh:

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 05:23 PM

her failing is just simpler to understand than her being even worse than we already know she is.

What on Earth are you talking about? "She doesn't care about anyone but herself and thus is fine attacking the order" is not "worse than we already know she is". It is, in fact, exactly as bad as we already know she is.

Grey Wolf

Keltest

2018-12-20, 05:37 PM

You have quite a different understanding of Occam's Razor than I do. What matters more is the telling of a story. Sometimes D&D rules help facilitate that. Sometimes they get in the way. The Giant needed for Hilgya to be mind controlled for events in this story to unfold that way. So he either 1) has her fail to resist it because nefarious mind control powers, which is something that people who play D&D and those who don't will both understand or 2) he finds some tougher explanation in D&D rules to explain how someone that all D&D veterans knows should have an awesome Will save still fails a Will save. The first is simpler from a story-writing perspective.

I think the point you are missing is that while statistically improbable events happen, chains of statistically improbable events strain credulity. Yes, it is technically possible that hilgya rolled a 1 or 2 on her will save three or four times in a row there, but unlike reality, fiction needs to care about how many times improbable things happen before it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Akrane

2018-12-20, 05:44 PM

What on Earth are you talking about? "She doesn't care about anyone but herself and thus is fine attacking the order" is not "worse than we already know she is". It is, in fact, exactly as bad as we already know she is.

Grey Wolf

Yep, pretty much.

In fact, that's part of why I think Durkon was kinda looking for trouble with his speech (intentionally or not); the kind of things he said were Good, Lawful, came from his heart and a sense of duty and need to atone for past mistakes, which could only piss off someone like Hilgya who stands against pretty much every value behind his speech.
I'd compare it to earnestly talking about "the power of friendship" and "forgiving his mistakes" to Xykon; at best, you're going to bore him, and at worse he's going to be pissed off. In any case, you're getting nowhere and completely misread the character is you honestly thought you'd be changing the character for the better by doing so (which is at least half the reason for Durkon's speech).
So, Durkon did not "deserve" it (since he did nothing wrong), but he did say things that would piss off a Chaotic Evil character, so he kinda provoked it, the same someone trying to "power of friendship" Xykon would have provoked whichever death or torture Xykon decides to inflict on them.

Oh, and I guess the fact Xykon came to my mind pretty much says how little morality I think Hilgya has. After all, if she's Chaotic Evil, there really is very little but herself and (arguably) Kudzu she cares about.

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-20, 05:45 PM

I like to think I'm a good enough writer to communicate sarcasm and snark even without the blue text. Alas, it seems as though I still have work to do on my craft. You are, hence my acknowledging your having done so without it in that manner. :) (Some of your readers may need it ...)

Do we have any clarification at all about Bandana's level? I don't think we've seen her do anything combat-related (other than "also run from Crystal"). Prolly in a Geekery thread somewhere ...

There are times on this forum when I wonder if the readers of this comic read this comic. Wait, that takes effort! :smalleek:

hamishspence

2018-12-20, 05:46 PM

So, Durkon did not "deserve" it (since he did nothing wrong), but he did say things that would piss off a Chaotic Evil character, so he kinda provoked it, the same someone trying to "power of friendship" Xykon would have provoked whichever death or torture Xykon decides to inflict on them.

Yup. For Xykon, it's already happened:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html

AutomatedTeller

2018-12-20, 05:52 PM

And yet, he stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html) that she "almost certainly [had nefarious intentions for him]".

Grey Wolf

Well, that's a point.

Ruck

2018-12-20, 05:53 PM

Prolly in a Geekery thread somewhere ...

It's not listed in the index, anyway, and just going by memory I was pretty confident we didn't have enough information to make any determination on what her level or stats might be.

Haluesen

2018-12-20, 05:53 PM

What on Earth are you talking about? "She doesn't care about anyone but herself and thus is fine attacking the order" is not "worse than we already know she is". It is, in fact, exactly as bad as we already know she is.

Grey Wolf

I was referring to her being controlled and passing Kudzu over. People who are talking about the typical D&D rules for mind control mention about how she shouldn't do that due to a high Will save combined with her care for her child. Some could and I believe have said that since she did give her child that means she doesn't care about him very much (combined with her bringing him into a dangerous situation while carrying him right in front of her). That's what I mean by "worse than we already know she is". And I am saying that I don't think that's the case; I believe that she is selfish and in some ways cruel, but that she does genuinely love Kudzu. Again, more likely mind control is working more than it should be because this is a story with a point, not a D&D game that is 100% going along with the rules. Does that explain what I mean better? Honestly I am not always great at translating my thoughts to written words.

I think the point you are missing is that while statistically improbable events happen, chains of statistically improbable events strain credulity. Yes, it is technically possible that hilgya rolled a 1 or 2 on her will save three or four times in a row there, but unlike reality, fiction needs to care about how many times improbable things happen before it breaks suspension of disbelief.

I suppose so. What I'm seeing is that it is a story, not a D&D game with complete adherence to rules, and so it doesn't strain my belief and the belief of some others that it could happen to facilitate a good, tense, interesting tale. It's like a thing that Elan said once, about one in a million being a guaranteed thing. Yes it was a joke, but it sorta makes sense for how events in stories happen.

All that said, it's just a point of view. It's one particular understanding of why this is all happening. Yours (and presumably others who agree with you) is another way of looking at it. At least compared to some things I have seen written around here lately I can see where you're coming from and it makes a decent amount of sense. If that happened to my character in an actual game you can bet I'd be upset about it. I think I'm rambling now. Anyway it's not so much that I miss the point as that I look at the events that unfolded a different way and disagree with the dice-related percentage reasoning, but still see it as sensible.

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-20, 05:53 PM

Oh, and I guess the fact Xykon came to my mind pretty much says how little morality I think Hilgya has. After all, if she's Chaotic Evil, there really is very little but herself and (arguably) Kudzu she cares about. One of the ways that Rich uses Belkar is to play the role of 'truth teller' in a smartalecky fashion. If we go back to comic 1107 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html) we hear from Belkar in panel 9 So we're just going to glide right past the fact that she named her kid "Kudzu"? We are? OK.

I am still pondering over that being a slight hint from Rich, Rich making sure people get the joke with a prompt like that (like the rim shot in some stand up acts), or a head fake. There's a chance that she named him that before she began to appreciate the positive aspects of having a child ... and there may be other stuff going on "under the hood" that will come out in the next few strips.

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-20, 05:55 PM

It's not listed in the index, anyway, and just going by memory I was pretty confident we didn't have enough information to make any determination on what her level or stats might be. OK, she owns leather armor, is a pirate, and uses what looks like a dagger and cares not for wands. Guessing Rogue? Guessing mid level what with her being on a pirate ship her whole life? I am surprised there isn't more .... I'll see what I can dig up later.

Akrane

2018-12-20, 05:55 PM

Yup. For Xykon, it's already happened

Ah, completely forgot that one.

Guess I remembered the lesson, though!:smallbiggrin:

Keltest

2018-12-20, 06:02 PM

I suppose so. What I'm seeing is that it is a story, not a D&D game with complete adherence to rules, and so it doesn't strain my belief and the belief of some others that it could happen to facilitate a good, tense, interesting tale. It's like a thing that Elan said once, about one in a million being a guaranteed thing. Yes it was a joke, but it sorta makes sense for how events in stories happen.

Lemme put it this way. Fiction, unlike reality, needs to be realistic. You start having the odds regularly meaningless, and people will stop being invested in the story or setting. You can get away with unlikely events as long as theyre far apart, but when you start chaining them together then people (like Grey Wolf and I) call shenanigans.

Akrane

2018-12-20, 06:04 PM

One of the ways that Rich uses Belkar is to play the role of 'truth teller' in a smartalecky fashion. If we go back to comic 1107 we hear from Belkar in panel 9: So we're just going to glide right past the fact that she named her kid "Kudzu"? We are? OK.

To be honest, I never thought of that line from Belkar as anything but him saying "this name is terrible". I does sound pretty awful, in my opinion, so that made sense to me.

However, I guess it could mean something in a language Belkar understands - bonus points if only him knows it in the group - and that's why he reacted on the name. Not sure why the rest of the group would not have at least some reaction to the name if they know its meaning, though.

Mordar

2018-12-20, 06:06 PM

I think the point you are missing is that while statistically improbable events happen, chains of statistically improbable events strain credulity. Yes, it is technically possible that hilgya rolled a 1 or 2 on her will save three or four times in a row there, but unlike reality, fiction needs to care about how many times improbable things happen before it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Certainly true. However you'd also think that maybe one of the other 3 Order members might have made one of their additional saves given enough chances. That Minrah made the save but couldn't get a spell off because of a thrown dagger also stretches the probability meter a bit too.

Instead we see them continuing to listen to Durkon because he wouldn't lie, or protect V from whatever that other cleric is about to do, or try to talk Roy into joining the rest of the team. Of course, that might be a clever way of avoiding triggering additional saves (appealing to what Durkon knows of the three of them so the requests aren't completely against character in their clouded state), or it might be an indication that they got saves and again failed all of them (though I might have expected some kind of hesitation or delay to represent that to us), or it might be that the re-save rule just isn't in effect.

...or it might be that Durkon brought Hilgya and Kudzu up on the dais to create a condition where anyone threatening Durkon could reasonably (to the clouded mind) be considered to be threatening Kudzu and/or Hilgya and thus a potential adversary for a priest of Loki, Thor or most any other god you'd like, and eligible to get a flame strike in the face.

There is as much reason to believe that this is Rule of Drama overshadowing D&D RaW as any other option. The story demanded Belkar have just enough life left to provide Durkon with the assisted death, Durkon and all the other vampires be dead, and Hilgya be alive. To show that the Order isn't a bunch of half-wits anymore means they had to have a good plan. To have the battle be exciting the opposition had to have some countering the plan. To be a shining moment of awesome for Durkon meant that the rest of the Order needed to be out of the focus, and even a rules-optional-but-valued approach tells us that V has to go down first. So V got to be useful but out early, Roy got to last to the end and be awesome, Haley and Elan got to show that they can be effective (against Roy), and Belkar got to be nastily cool...and the story got where it needed to be for the great moments for Durkon, Belkar...and then our contested-but-funny Hilgya finale.

It seems it was an elegant way to create the story the author intended while maintaining the integrity of all of the players. I believe that is facilitated by ignoring or skirting the re-save rule, and that it wasn't likely intended that Hilgya's final dominated spell wasn't meant to provide us some insight of her character that was better executed by her initial comments about wanting to kill Durkon...and then her do so in 1149.

tl;dr: There are more than Grey Wolf's 2 possibilities. The third, potentially simpler: Rich didn't use the re-save rule.

- M

KorvinStarmast

2018-12-20, 06:10 PM

tl;dr: There are more than Grey Wolf's 2 possibilities. The third, potentially simpler: Rich didn't use the re-save rule. - M THere is also the possibility that V's drama-probability-servicing-copper-piece-harlots hypothesis is operative.

Haluesen

2018-12-20, 06:11 PM

Lemme put it this way. Fiction, unlike reality, needs to be realistic. You start having the odds regularly meaningless, and people will stop being invested in the story or setting. You can get away with unlikely events as long as theyre far apart, but when you start chaining them together then people (like Grey Wolf and I) call shenanigans.

I'm not sure I entirely see what you mean with the first part. I find consistency matters more than realism, but even following that I would agree that Hilgya failing to the domination isn't consistent, because as you all have said D&D rules are mostly observed.

There are two other things here on which I respectfully disagree. Well, for one I agree and disagree I mean? Yes there is a point for everyone where there seem to be no odds of failure and the story is less interesting or engaging, I see eye to eye with you about that. It's just that her failing to resist Vamp Durkon isn't past that line for me and I hope for some others out there. That's just a personal preference thing. We agree on the basic concept I think.

The other thing is that things like that, with her failing her Will save, are what keeps there being stakes to these endeavors. If she just threw it off and kept destroying the vampires willy-nilly with ease then it makes them less of a threat, their plot less troubling. It almost would be boring. It actually was the way in which things were kept exciting.

So, I suppose I just don't see it as shenanigans yet. I like this discussion though. I hope I'm not coming across as rude or stubborn or nonsensical. There's been enough of that in the Playground. I keep responding because I like the debate.

Keltest

2018-12-20, 06:11 PM

Certainly true. However you'd also think that maybe one of the other 3 Order members might have made one of their additional saves given enough chances. That Minrah made the save but couldn't get a spell off because of a thrown dagger also stretches the probability meter a bit too.

Of the remaining order, only Elan would have good enough saves to have a chance of reliably passing, and he has a wisdom penalty that drops them a bit. Also, as mentioned, they could well have been hit several times before falling under domination.

Mordar

2018-12-20, 06:18 PM

THere is also the possibility that V's drama-probability-servicing-copper-piece-harlots hypothesis is operative.

That's what I meant :smallwink:

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 06:18 PM

The third, potentially simpler: Rich didn't use the re-save rule.

- M

No. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html)

Grey Wolf

Ruck

2018-12-20, 06:42 PM

One of the ways that Rich uses Belkar is to play the role of 'truth teller' in a smartalecky fashion. If we go back to comic 1107 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html) we hear from Belkar in panel 9 So we're just going to glide right past the fact that she named her kid "Kudzu"? We are? OK.

I am still pondering over that being a slight hint from Rich, Rich making sure people get the joke with a prompt like that (like the rim shot in some stand up acts), or a head fake. There's a chance that she named him that before she began to appreciate the positive aspects of having a child ... and there may be other stuff going on "under the hood" that will come out in the next few strips.

To be honest, I never thought of that line from Belkar as anything but him saying "this name is terrible". I does sound pretty awful, in my opinion, so that made sense to me.

However, I guess it could mean something in a language Belkar understands - bonus points if only him knows it in the group - and that's why he reacted on the name. Not sure why the rest of the group would not have at least some reaction to the name if they know its meaning, though.

Kudzu is a type of vine that is invasive and will overrun a location if not kept in check. I suppose it could be a mean commentary on carrying a child through pregnancy, but I sorta took it as Hilgya's little way of trolling Dwarven society, naming her child after an invasive plant in a race/culture that fears trees.

Doug Lampert

2018-12-20, 06:45 PM

Practically speaking, sure, she'd have to tell a convincing story, but technically it would still be the state's burden to demonstrate Andi's men's rea.

I'm not a lawyer, and you are, but I'd think establishing the men's rea for felony battery would create a felony charge, and that this would make it felony murder in most jurisdictions even if you could somehow PROVE that there was actually no intent to kill.

Rrmcklin

2018-12-20, 06:48 PM

Mordar

2018-12-20, 06:50 PM

No. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html)

Grey Wolf

Granted. Would that comic be evidence of the kind of hesitation that might be seen when given an order contrary to the character's nature? The kind that we don't see at all from Haley, Elan or Belkar?

So clearly in strip #524 we see a domination resisted thanks to a re-save, following clear evidence of an act contrary to the character's nature. We see none of the same in 1123 - 1127. Wouldn't that mean that none of the impacted characters are struggling against the effect? It seems it is in strip 524 panel 12 that Thanh makes the save, and in the preceding panels is struggling with the effect. No such struggling appears in 1123-1127.

Is your reconciliation of these facts (a) Thanh made the save in panel 8 and it just took a while to complete, so we never see Haley/Elan/Belkar struggle because they never made a save, or (b) of the 5 dominated characters only Thanh is presented with a command contrary to their nature. or (c) the needs of the story changed the implementation of the effect?

- M

Akrane

2018-12-20, 06:54 PM

Kudzu is a type of vine that is invasive and will overrun a location if not kept in check. I suppose it could be a mean commentary on carrying a child through pregnancy, but I sorta took it as Hilgya's little way of trolling Dwarven society, naming her child after an invasive plant in a race/culture that fears trees.

Never would have guessed. I looked up Kudzu, but gave up when I saw a decent amount of companies being the first results.

Also, makes a lot of sense for Belkar, of all people, to get it then. He is the Ranger and the Troll of the team, so understanding a plant-based form of trolling or snarky reference to pregnancy sounds right up his alley.
If naming her son the same as an invasive vine was intentional, it's pretty safe to assume she isn't the most caring parent, I'd say, whether it refers to pregnancy or fear of trees/vegetation.

EDIT:
Yeah, it does seem more likely it is a reference to the "Kudzu Plot" trope from the author than one to some vine from Hilgya.

Doug Lampert

2018-12-20, 06:54 PM

I find it more likely it's a reference to the https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KudzuPlot than the actual plant.

Do you have a reference to that trope name that isn't TVTROPES, because Rich has said he does not usually read TVTROPES (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142995-Does-Rich-Burlew-read-TvTropes/page5&p=8006917#post8006917), and AFAICT, every trope name he's ever used either predates TVTROPES, or Rich is the trope namer on TVTROPES.

hamishspence

2018-12-20, 06:56 PM

Never would have guessed. I looked up Kudzu, but gave up when I saw a decent amount of companies being the first results.

The Real Life section for the Alien Kudzu trope sums it up pretty well:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlienKudzu

The Trope Namer is kudzu, aka the Vine That Ate the South. Brought over from Japan to the Southeastern United States to prevent soil erosion along railroad trackbeds, it was quickly realized that it grows over large patches of ground, choking out native plant life by denying it sunlight and nutrients. It also loves growing over trees, choking them to death in shade, pulling down branches, or just outright uprooting the tree. It happily does the same to utility poles and power cables, which causes all SORTS of problems. Its growth is roughly a foot per day; take a trip for a week, come back to find it's covered an entire wall of your house. And the seeds can take years to germinate; if you can kill the notoriously hardy thing, you'll often find out a year later that its children have returned for revenge.

Oh, and it prevents soil erosion along railroad trackbeds.

Ruck

2018-12-20, 07:08 PM

I find it more likely it's a reference to the https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KudzuPlot than the actual plant.

How so? I don't see OOTS' plot as convoluted or needlessly confusing, and I don't know why Hilgya the character would make such a reference.

Akrane

2018-12-20, 07:08 PM

The Real Life section for the Alien Kudzu trope sums it up pretty well:

The Trope Namer is kudzu, aka the Vine That Ate the South. Brought over from Japan to the Southeastern United States to prevent soil erosion along railroad trackbeds, it was quickly realized that it grows over large patches of ground, choking out native plant life by denying it sunlight and nutrients. It also loves growing over trees, choking them to death in shade, pulling down branches, or just outright uprooting the tree. It happily does the same to utility poles and power cables, which causes all SORTS of problems. Its growth is roughly a foot per day; take a trip for a week, come back to find it's covered an entire wall of your house. And the seeds can take years to germinate; if you can kill the notoriously hardy thing, you'll often find out a year later that its children have returned for revenge.

Oh, and it prevents soil erosion along railroad trackbeds.

A very nice name for a cute (dwarven) baby boy, then!

I guess the OOTS universe had a similar fiasco happen somewhere, maybe?

Oh, and if anything the "coming back from nowhere, years later" portion seems to perhaps be what the author meant, since that's what Hilgya has just done by showing up years later from her last appearance.

Anyways, thanks for the lore-drop on real life. :smallwink:

Akrane

2018-12-20, 07:15 PM

How so? I don't see OOTS' plot as convoluted or needlessly confusing, and I don't know why Hilgya the character would make such a reference.

No, but Hilgya, before her new appearance, was a dangling "plot thread" in a relatively massive universe built over years.

The idea of "Kudzu" being a reference to the concept of a "Kudzu Plot" isn't about Hilgya, but rather the author, making the reference. Hilgya would have just named her son a vine for other (probably mean-spirited) reasons.

Ruck

2018-12-20, 07:34 PM

No, but Hilgya, before her new appearance, was a dangling "plot thread" in a relatively massive universe built over years.

The idea of "Kudzu" being a reference to the concept of a "Kudzu Plot" isn't about Hilgya, but rather the author, making the reference. Hilgya would have just named her son a vine for other (probably mean-spirited) reasons.

Apparently not:

Kudzu is a type of vine that is invasive and will overrun a location if not kept in check. I suppose it could be a mean commentary on carrying a child through pregnancy, but I sorta took it as Hilgya's little way of trolling Dwarven society, naming her child after an invasive plant in a race/culture that fears trees.

I find it more likely it's a reference to the https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KudzuPlot than the actual plant.

CriticalFailure

2018-12-20, 07:41 PM

I guess I just don't get why people care that much about Hilgya's exact alignment or how bad or not bad her various actions are or other people having a different opinion on the matter.

As far as I'm concerned Hilgya's great, because she's hilarious.

Peelee

2018-12-20, 07:46 PM

No, but Hilgya, before her new appearance, was a dangling "plot thread" in a relatively massive universe built over years.

"Relatively," in this case, being stretched to its limit.

Akrane

2018-12-20, 07:54 PM

Apparently not:

Well, I guess I can't read Rrmcklin's mind from when he said "I find it more likely it's a reference to the https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KudzuPlot than the actual plant.", but I would have never interpreted the reference as coming from Hilgya but rather from the author, and I don't see how your own opinion on where Kudzu might come from changes that in any way.

Sorry if I missed your point here; I don't exactly disagree with you that it's probably the plant that was the reference for his name, but that doesn't mean a "Kudzu Plot" reference wouldn't come from the author, only that the reference to the plant is understood in-universe and not just a random name (thanks to Belkar).

Akrane

2018-12-20, 07:57 PM

"Relatively," in this case, being stretched to its limit.

Yeah, I have an undying love for that word to a point where it came up in a case where it isn't really warranted. :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, "relatively" compared to collaborative or cumullative works like the major D&D or Pathfinder Campaign Settings or the real world, but yeah, it's pretty massive.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 07:58 PM

Granted. Would that comic be evidence of the kind of hesitation that might be seen when given an order contrary to the character's nature? The kind that we don't see at all from Haley, Elan or Belkar?

- M

We don't see any hesitation because none of them made their saves/didn't get one/happened offscreen and thus it doesn't apply.

But you know, I don't get the feeling you are trying to have an honest conversation, given that that's their third obvious answer I've had to give, so bye bye.

Grey Wolf

Rrmcklin

2018-12-20, 08:04 PM

Well, I guess I can't read Rrmcklin's mind from when he said "I find it more likely it's a reference to the https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KudzuPlot than the actual plant.", but I would have never interpreted the reference as coming from Hilgya but rather from the author, and I don't see how your own opinion on where Kudzu might come from changes that in any way.

Sorry if I missed your point here; I don't exactly disagree with you that it's probably the plant that was the reference for his name, but that doesn't mean a "Kudzu Plot" reference wouldn't come from the author, only that the reference to the plant is understood in-universe and not just a random name (thanks to Belkar).

Probably should have phrased that better, I think the reference to Hilgya is a "dangling plot thread" that many people expected/hoped would come back. Doesn't preclude the name being a double reference, one meta, and the other because Hilgya wanted to be a jerk or something.

I feel like Belkar going "Really, we're not going to talk about her naming the kid 'Kudzu'" works better for the meta reference than just the ordinary plant, though.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-20, 08:08 PM

I feel like Belkar going "Really, we're not going to talk about her naming the kid 'Kudzu'" works better for the meta reference than just the ordinary plant, though.

Really?:smallconfused:

Lets review:
1) we know Rich doesn't read TvTropes, so it can't be a reference to Kudzu plot (googling doesn't reveal the name used anywhere else, although I suppose I can't 100% discard it's a well-known phrase outside of tvtropes)
b) dwarves hate/fear plants, so it's like naming your child "Rue" or "Cain" or "Warlock"
iii) a vine that grows without control sounds a lot like pregnancy

On the other hand, it sounds a bit cruel of her to name the baby that. But it also is a bit cruel to use him as ablative armor when fighting vampires, so either she's that self-centered or she really doesn't love him all that much, and is simply possessive of him.

Grey Wolf

Peelee

2018-12-20, 08:16 PM

Akrane

2018-12-20, 08:26 PM

Yeah, I have an undying love for that word to a point where it came up in a case where it isn't really warranted. :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, "relatively" compared to collaborative or cumullative works like the major D&D or Pathfinder Campaign Settings or the real world, but yeah, it's pretty massive.
It's really not that massive though.

We have different criterias for massive, I guess.

For a comic made by one author, I think we've had a lot of characters, settings, and events across the chapters and that there is a significant amount of world-building behind it.
Anyways, it's "relatively" massive imho.

Rrmcklin

2018-12-20, 08:31 PM

Really?

Lets review:
1) we know Rich doesn't read TvTropes, so it can't be a reference to Kudzu plot (googling doesn't reveal the name used anywhere else, although I suppose I can't 100% discard it's a well-known phrase outside of tvtropes)
b) dwarves hate/fear plants, so it's like naming your child "Rue" or "Cain" or "Warlock"
iii) a vine that grows without control sounds a lot like pregnancy

On the other hand, it sounds a bit cruel of her to name the baby that. But it also is a bit cruel to use him as ablative armor when fighting vampires, so either she's that self-centered or she really doesn't love him all that much, and is simply possessive of him.

Grey Wolf

Fair enough, but I also find myself thinking that "kudzu" is something that Belkar would understand off hand, but would get a meta-reference. Plus, the dwarves thing has already seemed more specifically trees and not just plants in general.

Maybe that's my own bias, though.

Peelee

2018-12-20, 08:52 PM

We have different criterias for massive, I guess.

For a comic made by one author, I think we've had a lot of characters, settings, and events across the chapters and that there is a significant amount of world-building behind it.
Anyways, it's "relatively" massive imho.

In a world specifically built on being paper-thin to act as a stand-in for any D&D campaign. With names like Wooden Forest, Sunken Valley, and the Pinnacle Mountains, and people like Offscreenicus.

It's a great story. It's a great world. It's not the massive, expansive world you think it is, though.

zimmerwald1915

2018-12-20, 09:20 PM

Fair enough, but I also find myself thinking that "kudzu" is something that Belkar would understand off hand, but would get a meta-reference. Plus, the dwarves thing has already seemed more specifically trees and not just plants in general.

Maybe that's my own bias, though.
Why wouldn't the party ranger know the name of a plant off the top of his head? :smallamused:

Kish

2018-12-20, 09:21 PM

Why wouldn't the party ranger know the name of a plant off the top of his head? :smallamused:
Explicitly zero ranks in Survival; wanna make a bet on how many ranks he has in Knowledge (Nature)?

(I think the name is a reference to the plant, not something about the plot.)

Peelee

2018-12-20, 09:37 PM

Explicitly zero ranks in Survival; wanna make a bet on how many ranks he has in Knowledge (Nature)?

Fewer than in Profession: Gourmet Chef. Kudzu's edible. :smallwink:

zimmerwald1915

2018-12-20, 09:40 PM

Explicitly zero ranks in Survival; wanna make a bet on how many ranks he has in Knowledge (Nature)?
I weep for the poor joke.

Haluesen

2018-12-20, 10:13 PM

I weep for the poor joke.

For the record, I liked the joke. :smallbiggrin: I don't think Kish jokes very much though.

Of course Peelee's thing up there about Kudzu...that joke was a little more alarming. At least I assume it was a joke... :smalleek: Almost definitely a joke

Ruck

2018-12-20, 10:14 PM

Probably should have phrased that better, I think the reference to Hilgya is a "dangling plot thread" that many people expected/hoped would come back. Doesn't preclude the name being a double reference, one meta, and the other because Hilgya wanted to be a jerk or something.

I feel like Belkar going "Really, we're not going to talk about her naming the kid 'Kudzu'" works better for the meta reference than just the ordinary plant, though.

I suppose it could be a double reference-- and this description of kudzu fits really fits this part of the story in both real time and OOTS-time:

And the seeds can take years to germinate; if you can kill the notoriously hardy thing, you'll often find out a year later that its children have returned for revenge.

I just think the TV Tropes version is not very likely, for reasons others have stated, and it's a bit obtuse as a reference in that regard.

Also, I don't think it's unreasonable that a really crappy ranger would know what kudzu is; I do, and I'm barely an outdoors person.

B. Dandelion

2018-12-20, 11:23 PM

Kudzu is a major tree-killing plant. In that respect his name is actually perfectly appropriate to his culture, maybe even a little surprisingly so.

Peelee

2018-12-20, 11:25 PM

For the record, I liked the joke. :smallbiggrin: I don't think Kish jokes very much though.

Of course Peelee's thing up there about Kudzu...that joke was a little more alarming. At least I assume it was a joke... :smalleek: Almost definitely a joke

The best jokes are rooted in truth (https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-sprint-us-revc&source=android-browser&q=cooking+with+kudzu).

Rrmcklin

2018-12-20, 11:46 PM

Kudzu is a major tree-killing plant. In that respect his name is actually perfectly appropriate to his culture, maybe even a little surprisingly so.

Interesting. We've never seen what Hilgya thinks of trees, have we?

Ruck

2018-12-20, 11:46 PM

The best jokes are rooted in truth (https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-sprint-us-revc&source=android-browser&q=cooking+with+kudzu).

I'm relieved this link didn't go to A Modest Proposal. I mean, Hilgya is rich, so why would we eat Kudzu?

Peelee

2018-12-20, 11:48 PM

I'm relieved this link didn't go to A Modest Proposal.

Nah, that'd be barking up the wrong tree.

TRH

2018-12-20, 11:53 PM

Interesting. We've never seen what Hilgya thinks of trees, have we?

She probably considers the ability to kill them en masse another benefit of worshiping a fire god.

Emanick

2018-12-21, 02:04 AM

Concerning the one-hit kill flame strike and the instant-KO wrench smack, I think this is a case of the Giant not always needing to rely on D&D rules. They are used fairly consistently and the world seems to operate on them, but sometimes rules must be cast aside for story/comedy (whichever applies) in a webcomic/other written media. At least, that is how I think the Giant is operating.

If the flame strike left Durkon alive but hurt then there would be different things to take away from the scene than if she killed him to callously resurrect him. And if it took multiple strikes with the wrench to knock out Bandana...well then the implications of what Andromeda was doing in that scene would be entirely different, it would be a lot more horrific, and there would probably be even more hate for her on these boards.

Because I know the universe explicitly runs on game mechanics that are similar to D&D 3.5 in most respects, I lose my ability to suspend disbelief whenever I cannot see how they could plausibly be in operation. Granted, this rarely happens, because most rules have a zillion exceptions, and a house rule could always be in play, but it does happen occasionally, such as when Crystal knocked Elan out in one hit. So I'm not a fan of any explanation that assumes Rich temporarily suspended the laws under which his world explicitly operates. There's almost always a better explanation than that.

I certainly don't dispute the fact that the scene would have played out differently, and probably for the worse, if Andi hadn't knocked Bandana unconscious in a single blow, or if Hilgya had used multiple spells to kill Durkon. But that's not really relevant to my point. My point is simply that Andi probably knew perfectly well that she wasn't putting Bandana's life at risk by hitting her with a wrench, so it should be regarded as violent mutiny, but not as a deliberately life-endangering threat.

Had Bandana died though, the onus would be on Andi to convince the jury of "lack of intent" - with the predictable deadliness of a blow to the head with a heavy metal object, telling against her.

Or got a Critical Hit and reduced Bandana to 0 HP exactly. Had Bandana been reduced to -1 hit point or less, she'd start Dying (losing 1 hp per round)- with Death coming at -10 hit points (unless she's lucky enough to pass a save to stop "bleeding").

Makes sense to me.

I don't really care what a jury would or wouldn't conclude based on inherently imperfect evidence, merely what Andi was actually guilty of. And in the OOTSverse, even if you assume that a mechanic's wrench is as deadly as a warrior's light mace - which is a bit of a stretch, IMO - Andi would only deal 1d6 damage plus her Strength bonus with the wrench. Even with a critical hit, that's a maximum of 2d6 plus double Strength damage. And Bandana is able to take multiple hits from Crystal without looking to be at death's door, so she's pretty clearly going to survive that. It would be exceedingly strange if Andi were unaware that her mid-level captain was mid-level, having spent the last 10+ years with her, so she should know all this.

That said, the fact that Bandana falls unconscious throws a wrench into that otherwise-straightforward analysis. She isn't at 0 hit points, as somebody else pointed out, since at 0 you're still conscious, but nobody appears to think she's at risk of death, either, so she doesn't appear to be in the negatives. OOTS appears to have some house rule that lets you knock someone unconscious without reducing them to 0 hit points - Belkar uses it on Miko, and I think there are other examples that I'm forgetting - but as it's unclear how that rule works, I guess we can't say precisely what level of danger Andi is guilty of putting her captain in (besides the part where she risks getting everyone killed by murderous frost giants, that is).

Intent follows the bullet. Or the wrench, in this case.

*auto-wrenches Peelee*

Second-degree or in some jurisdictions third-degree murder only requires a reckless disregard for someone's life.

Also, striking someone in the head with an iron or steel club the size of the wrench that Andi was holding demonstrates intent to kill. If Andi had "merely" meant to hurt Bandana badly, she'd have struck Bandana in the arm or in the body.

Quite aside from the fact that a single whack with a wrench is not deadly enough to kill a mid-level character, I think the comic makes it abundantly clear that Andi was not trying to kill Bandana. If she wanted to do so, she had ample opportunity to finish the job while her captain was unconscious. Sure, you could argue that she would have been reluctant to murder her unconscious (temporarily ex-)leader in front of her crewmates, and so would only have been willing to strike with deadly force in the heat of the moment - but that's a pretty weak argument IMO, given that she was fine with attacking her commander in the first place.

That said, in the real world, you might have a point. I think that, for the sake of moral consistency, people should be held accountable for the foreseeable results of their actions in context, so it makes little sense to judge Andi's attack as if it was taking place against an average Jane in our world, rather than against someone whom it is mathematically impossible to kill with a single blow. That's kind of like judging someone for pushing an adult off of a high table as if that adult were a baby. It's still messed up, and it could still seriously injure the adult, but because the adult isn't a baby, it doesn't really make sense to treat it like an act with potentially lethal consequences.

I like to think I'm a good enough writer to communicate sarcasm and snark even without the blue text. Alas, it seems as though I still have work to do on my craft.

Do we have any clarification at all about Bandana's level? I don't think we've seen her do anything combat-related (other than "also run from Crystal").

For the record, as a professional comedian, I'm not a fan of the blue text. It pretty much ruins the humor in a statement if you're going to flamboyantly broadcast its unserious nature. Glad you don't use it.

Anyway, to address your question, Bandana survives two direct hits from Crystal without looking dead on her feet, so IMO that makes it implausible for her level to be too low. Anything lower than 5 is probably off the table, and I'd expect her to be a bit higher than that (though not TOO high, or you'd expect her to be a tad more effective in combat).

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-21, 08:29 AM

For the record, as a professional comedian, I'm not a fan of the blue text. It pretty much ruins the humor in a statement if you're going to flamboyantly broadcast its unserious nature.

Only as much as inflecting the sarcasm tone of voice "ruins" the humour of doing it out loud. Sometimes, you feel the need to use sarcasm, but want to be sure that no-one will think you are serious, and thus employ blue text to clearly indicate that the sentence is not being said in the usual tone. If that kills the humour a bit, that's an easy compromise to do. Generally, if I'm fed up to the point of wanting to use sarcasm, I'm probably not going for humour anyway.

Grey Wolf

King of Nowhere

2018-12-21, 08:46 AM

I think I have a possible explanation for the saving throws:

dominated elan and haley all talk about how durkon is trustworthy. except they know, very specifically, that the vampire is not durkon. contrast with dominated tanah, who was making real argumments for hurting haley.
So I'm thinking that maybe vampiric gaze domination contains an element of charm person to it, that makes the dominated person see you more favorably. haley and elan see the vampire as the real durkon. hilgya see the vampire as an ally, possibly she sees it like she saw durkon before he broke up.
In that case, giving the baby to a friendly person was not against her nature and did not give a second saving throw. note that she did not try to rationalize her decision, like people making their second saving throw often are. tanah had to make a second saving throw to attack haley, a friend and ally, and he rationalized it. elan and haley got a second saving throw to attack roy, and they rationalize. belkar did not get a second saving throw, as he's hurt roy plenty of times in the past, and so he says nothing. yikyik said nothing when dominated by vaarsuvius, but he was explicitely ordered to shut up, so we can't infer anything from that.

Aveline

2018-12-21, 08:49 AM

Do you mean Thanh? I don't normally point out spelling differences, but it took me a little while to figure out who you were talking about.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-21, 09:26 AM

"Paladins of the Sapphire Guard used to wipe out groups who threaten gates" was established very early on:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html
That is 77 pages after Miko's big reveal, long past the point where the author stopped trying to defend her, and it certainly doesn't show her slaughtering goblin toddlers. What is your point?

There's nothing about the author's later remarks that refers to any particular country, or the guard's larger mission, or anything other than implying that Miko is precisely the lawful-stupid smitebot that once upon a time he explicitly stated she was not. This is all your own invention, Hamish.

Man how did this thread end up talking about Miko. Miko was a much more interesting and better character than Hilgya but she’s been dead for like 700 strips.
King of Nowere brought up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576586-Hilgya-s-the-worst/page2&p=23582774#post23582774) the subject here.

No he was not, and no he did not. Apologizing to someone, wanting to be a good father and giving a woman who he shared something special briefly a second chance do not justify being called "a sack of crap" or being physically assaulted.
Yeah, I think people are underestimating the sense of shock and betrayal Durkon would feel over Hilgya making him an unwitting party to adultery, particularly when he's devoted his life to duty and diligence. As it stands, I think Hilgya is getting far too little flack for reckless child endangerment.