Bard Spells - Debuff College of Whispers

[Ganryu]

Hoping for some opinions on this. I'm playing a Drow Bard, (Chaotic Evil if it matters), and hoping to make a cruel bard who focuses on debuffs. Was wondering if anyone had suggestions for spells, and overall advice over how workable a bard who focuses on debuffing enemies the entire combat.

I've never actually had a successful bard before either, so that makes harder.

We are starting at lvl 1, but this Dm's probably going to go all the way to 20 or higher, so advice on any level is welcome as well.

[Snowbluff]

I think Dissonant Whispers would be a good start. It forces the target to move away from you, provoking attacks of opportunity.

Heat Metal has the double whammy of being really good and also incredibly cruel. Burn people alive in their own armor!

[sophontteks]

Vicious Mockery, Glitterdust, Bane, blindness/deafness, heat armor, cause fear, bestow curse.

Your cup runith over.

[SleepIncarnate]

A bard who does nothing but debuff is easy. The class's base chassis is huge on support. That said, since you're going whispers, don't hesitate to attack and use psychic blades from time to time.

As for spells, at level 1, you'll want faerie fire. Sure, you eventually get it as a 1/day racial, but it's still good. Sleep is another good choice until you hit level 5.

If your DM isn't one of those who rules that everything automatically sees through illusions, Phantasmal Force is amazing if you're creative enough. Want to lock down an enemy? Make it believe it's impeded in some way, like you caused a moat of lava to surround it or caused the earth to form a dome, suffocating it. Blindness/Deafness is great against ranged attackers, including casters.

At level 5 when you get access to third level spells, swap out sleep for hypnotic pattern. Enemies Abound is great for turning foes against one another, and Bestow Curse is great for all kinds of debuffs.

Polymorph will be your go to buff and debuff spell for 4th level slots.

The power of synaptic static as a 5th level spell can not be stated enough. Does 8d6 damage (which isn't great for a 5th level slot), but causes a non-concentration debuff that causes every enemy to subtract 1d6 from every attack roll, saving throw, and ability check for a minute, with no hopes to break it if they failed the initial save.

Eyebite as a 6th level spell is also great.

Forcecage for 7th level.

By then, you've already got tons of debuffing and controlling spells, so can do whatever.

[Ganryu]

A bard who does nothing but debuff is easy. The class's base chassis is huge on support. That said, since you're going whispers, don't hesitate to attack and use psychic blades from time to time.

As for spells, at level 1, you'll want faerie fire. Sure, you eventually get it as a 1/day racial, but it's still good. Sleep is another good choice until you hit level 5.

If your DM isn't one of those who rules that everything automatically sees through illusions, Phantasmal Force is amazing if you're creative enough. Want to lock down an enemy? Make it believe it's impeded in some way, like you caused a moat of lava to surround it or caused the earth to form a dome, suffocating it. Blindness/Deafness is great against ranged attackers, including casters.

At level 5 when you get access to third level spells, swap out sleep for hypnotic pattern. Enemies Abound is great for turning foes against one another, and Bestow Curse is great for all kinds of debuffs.

Polymorph will be your go to buff and debuff spell for 4th level slots.

The power of synaptic static as a 5th level spell can not be stated enough. Does 8d6 damage (which isn't great for a 5th level slot), but causes a non-concentration debuff that causes every enemy to subtract 1d6 from every attack roll, saving throw, and ability check for a minute, with no hopes to break it if they failed the initial save.

Eyebite as a 6th level spell is also great.

Forcecage for 7th level.

By then, you've already got tons of debuffing and controlling spells, so can do whatever.

This is hugely helpful, thank ya.

Honestly, whole thread filled up real quick with a ton of suggestion.

My only worry with a debuff character is it feels like low level, my spell DC is prety worthless, at higher levels, everything worth debuffing has huge saving bonuses. Is this likely, or am I just overthinking it?

[Crgaston]

A bard who does nothing but debuff is easy. The class's base chassis is huge on support. That said, since you're going whispers, don't hesitate to attack and use psychic blades from time to time.

As for spells, at level 1, you'll want faerie fire. Sure, you eventually get it as a 1/day racial, but it's still good. Sleep is another good choice until you hit level 5.

If your DM isn't one of those who rules that everything automatically sees through illusions, Phantasmal Force is amazing if you're creative enough. Want to lock down an enemy? Make it believe it's impeded in some way, like you caused a moat of lava to surround it or caused the earth to form a dome, suffocating it. Blindness/Deafness is great against ranged attackers, including casters.

At level 5 when you get access to third level spells, swap out sleep for hypnotic pattern. Enemies Abound is great for turning foes against one another, and Bestow Curse is great for all kinds of debuffs.

Polymorph will be your go to buff and debuff spell for 4th level slots.

The power of synaptic static as a 5th level spell can not be stated enough. Does 8d6 damage (which isn't great for a 5th level slot), but causes a non-concentration debuff that causes every enemy to subtract 1d6 from every attack roll, saving throw, and ability check for a minute, with no hopes to break it if they failed the initial save.

Eyebite as a 6th level spell is also great.

Forcecage for 7th level.

By then, you've already got tons of debuffing and controlling spells, so can do whatever.

This is good advice.
Only thing I would add would be to look at Fear as a 3rd level choice. Dropping your weapon and Dashing away is a pretty serious debuff.
Also, Synaptic Static doesn't affect Saves except for Concentration saves, so it doesn't work on itself, as it were, but it is an Int save, so still tough for most opponents.

Edit: Yes, you're kind of over thinking it. Enemies tend to fail often enough with level appropriate encounters. Having a variety of save types helps so you can target a weaker one, and control spells that don't depend on saves will be valuable as well.

[SleepIncarnate]

This is hugely helpful, thank ya.

Honestly, whole thread filled up real quick with a ton of suggestion.

My only worry with a debuff character is it feels like low level, my spell DC is prety worthless, at higher levels, everything worth debuffing has huge saving bonuses. Is this likely, or am I just overthinking it?

You're actually underthinking it. The save DC formula is:

8 + proficiency bonus + spellcasting modifier

Assuming you start with a 16 in your casting attribute (in this case, charisma), your save DC will be 13. At level 20, having built your maon ability score up to 20, you now have a save DC of 19. No caster can get above this without some homebrew ability to add double their proficiency or ability bonus to it, or a homebrew item that raises their casting ability above 20. No core items or abilities in the game do this to my knowledge.

Doesn't sound like a lot when you consider things like AC being able to break 20. The difference here is that your average level 20 martial character is going to have a +11 to their attack rolls by then (+13 if a barbarian) without magical weapons, so higher AC is a necessity to make any kind of challenge.

Also keep in mind that the ability to save is going to depend on two things above and beyond the DC:


The ability that the spell requires the target to save against
The target's ability score modifiers.


The most common save bard spells require is a wisdom save, which most non-caster enemies will have a low score in, causing them to have a penalty to save against it. Goblinsb for example, have an 8 wisdom if I remember correctly. So now, they have to roll a 14 or higher to save against your spell at level 1. And if you're fighting an enemy who has a decent wisdom score, you can cast a spell that calls for a different save, or better yet, one that doesn't allow for a save. Forcecage, for example, allows for no saving throw. The only way to escape it is with teleportation magic/abilities, and those require a saving throw to not fail. Nothing gets out otherwise. A caster could try to throw a fireball at you from within and would just end up blowing it up on themselves.

So your DC isn't as low as it seems.

[SleepIncarnate]

This is good advice.
Only thing I would add would be to look at Fear as a 3rd level choice. Dropping your weapon and Dashing away is a pretty serious debuff.
Also, Synaptic Static doesn't affect Saves except for Concentration saves, so it doesn't work on itself, as it were, but it is an Int save, so still tough for most opponents.

Yeah, I thought about mentioning it since it is such a thematically fitting spell for a whispers bard.

[Contrast]

At level 20, having built your maon ability score up to 20, you now have a save DC of 19. No caster can get above this without some homebrew ability to add double their proficiency or ability bonus to it, or a homebrew item that raises their casting ability above 20. No core items or abilities in the game do this to my knowledge.

Robe of the Archmagi boosts it by 2 and a Tome of <Stat> boosts your stat and maximum by 2 so I believe the highest theoretical DC is 22 but your point does stand more generally.

To OP - speaking as a bard player who just fought a boss with true sight, magic resistance and good saves, its always worth having some spells that aren't illusion based and don't rely on saves :smalltongue:

[Corran]

My only worry with a debuff character is it feels like low level, my spell DC is prety worthless, at higher levels, everything worth debuffing has huge saving bonuses. Is this likely, or am I just overthinking it?
Enemies with legendary resistances will give you the most trouble (and to a lesser extent, enemies with magic resistance, ie advantage o saving throws). It might be good to have backup spells for this occasion, meaning spells that don't rely on the enemy failing a save. As mentioned already, forcecage is such a spell (wall of force can be an option too, if you pick it as a magical secret, reverse gravity as well, though there are some cases where it actually might grant a save to resist). But you could also invest in a couple good buff spells, to have as a backup. Buffing allies can be a good call when fighting enemies with legendary resistances.

Edit: What Contrast said basically.

[Snowbluff]

Robe of the Archmagi boosts it by 2 and a Tome of <Stat> boosts your stat and maximum by 2 so I believe the highest theoretical DC is 22 but your point does stand more generally. 25 if you're a warlock with Rod of the Pact Keeper +3


To OP - speaking as a bard player who just fought a boss with true sight, magic resistance and good saves, its always worth having some spells that aren't illusion based and don't rely on saves :smalltongue:

For a bard, a Bardic Instrument magic items can give enemies disadvantage on Hypnotic Pattern and Suggestion.

I'd suggest actually just getting a variety of spells that are hard to resist but also affect different saves, or have no saves. Not every monster is proficient in all saves, so if you can figure out what its weakness is (Oh! A lich's reflexes are poor because he stopped working out after dying!) you can land spells much more easily.

[Blood of Gaea]

In my opinion, the most important thing to do is minimize enemies making a saving throw, which means picking spells that either have no save or have an AoE effect. With that in mind, here's a list of leveled spells:

1st: Bane, Faerie Fire, Sleep
2nd: Silence, Dispel Magic
3rd: Hypnotic Pattern, Fear
4th: Confusion
5th: Synaptic Static
6th: Mass Suggestion, Otto's Irresistible Dance
7th: Force Cage
8th: (Upcast)
9th: Psychic Scream

[Guy Lombard-O]

In my opinion, the most important thing to do is minimize enemies making a saving throw, which means picking spells that either have no save or have an AoE effect. With that in mind, here's a list of leveled spells:

1st: Bane, Faerie Fire, Sleep
2nd: Silence, Dispel Magic
3rd: Hypnotic Pattern, Fear
4th: Confusion
5th: Synaptic Static
6th: Mass Suggestion, Otto's Irresistible Dance
7th: Force Cage
8th: (Upcast)
9th: Psychic Scream

Great list. But I'd add one of my personal favorites to 2nd, Heat Metal.

[Blood of Gaea]

Great list. But I'd add one of my personal favorites to 2nd, Heat Metal.
Heat metal isn't a bad choice, yeah.