Thoughts on Arcane Archer

[Musthelog]

Hello everyone!

So i have been trying to figure out what to play in my next campaign. I was thinking of playing a halfling divination wizard with the lucky feat, just for the cheesy fun, but i havnt played a martial in a while.
So what i want to know is peoples thoughts on the Arcane Archer. How does it stack up to other fighter subclasses? Is it fun to play? Do they feel underpowered or OP?
Just from reading it it looks like you get very limited uses of your arcane shot, just 2 per short or long rest. Compared to the BM this feels a little..... lacking to say the least. Is this something that feats can help make up for?
Any thought or experiances that you all have is welcomed.

[darknite]

It has the same fatal flaw that all the Xanathar fighters do ... good powers refreshing only on Long Rests. And their powers are lame - making magic arrows? Get a magic bow. Only a couple of the arcane arrows are worthwhile and you get so few of them per Long Rest and they're not really impressive, anyway. No thanks.

[Azgeroth]

it sucks.. play a gloom stalker, or BM fighter, you will be much happier.

[Musthelog]

The Arcane Shots recharge on a short or long rest. But yeah the magic arrow kinda sucks. By lvl 7 you generally have a magic weapon.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd say it's slightly more powerful than the Battle Master in a vacuum, but due to the lack of versatility with your mechanics, the Battle Master does it a lot better in practicality.

Additionally, the Arcane Archer needs Dex AND Int, where the Battle Master can choose between Str/Dex and only needs to invest in one.

Lastly, one of the Fighter's biggest benefits is the Heavy Armor proficiency, and while the Battle Master can choose to take that investment, the Arcane Archer does not due to their required Dexterity score (effectively losing the proficiency).

With some minor modifications, I can really see the Arcane Archer doing a lot better.

A few fixes I had in mind:

Applying the effects to ALL ranged attacks, not just ones shot from bows.
Letting them use Wisdom OR Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier.
Have the number of Arcane Shots per Short Rest scale with their number of Extra attacks (so they get 2 shots at 3, 3 shots at 5, 4 shots at 11 and 5 shots at 20)



And a few other things in mind. I'm planning on targeting them in a future thread on the Let's Fix series, but I want to give Fighter a break for the time being (after working with the Purple Dragon Knight).

[Mortis_Elrod]

Ive always been of the opinion that its a little to few arcane shots, and the scaling is weird in general.

I think the UA was better overall since it at least gave you +1 arrows.

But in any case i think it functions alright. You wont be pumping out Fun Shots every turn in combat, but depending on the amount of short rests in your games you could do reasonably well. I really want it to work with a Ranger for those few ranger spells, but it be pretty mad and would come on pretty late too (and then not very many spells....sigh.)

[ImproperJustice]

Best I have seen out of it, was mostly invoking the arrows after a crit, and that the subclass’ best feature is the curving shot.

It really needs like two more shots per short rest by level 11 to be worth a play.

[Aett_Thorn]

For a better Arcane Archer feel, I still like going Bard and stealing Ranger archery spells with Magical Secrets. It just seems to feel more in line with how I think this kind of character should play.

Want the spells earlier? Go Lore Bard and get Lightning Arrow, Conjure Barrage, or Hail of Thorns at level 6, then Swift Quiver at 10.

Okay with waiting a bit? Go Valor or Swords Bard for extra attack, then grab Swift Quiver and another from the above list at 10.

[stoutstien]

I'm in the camp they just need more shots per rest. Maybe +1 at lv 3 and another at lv 7 works well I think.

[Damon_Tor]

Hello everyone!

So i have been trying to figure out what to play in my next campaign. I was thinking of playing a halfling divination wizard with the lucky feat, just for the cheesy fun, but i havnt played a martial in a while.
So what i want to know is peoples thoughts on the Arcane Archer. How does it stack up to other fighter subclasses? Is it fun to play? Do they feel underpowered or OP?
Just from reading it it looks like you get very limited uses of your arcane shot, just 2 per short or long rest. Compared to the BM this feels a little..... lacking to say the least. Is this something that feats can help make up for?
Any thought or experiances that you all have is welcomed.

You can do nice damage by combining Swords Bard's Mobile Flourish to trigger Grasping Arrow's extra damage. Assume fighter 3, bard 6 or fighter 5 bard, 3, whichever you prefer (You'll probably want to go fighter 3 bard x for spells).

Attack 1 with Grasping Arrow:
1d8+2d6+Dex
Attack 2 with Mobile Flourish:
1d8+1d8+2d6+Dex

Taking grasping arrow's damage doesn't end the effect, so they'll keep taking that damage as long as they keep moving until someone frees them as an action (using a str check, not a save, so they won't often have good odds even if you aren't well invested in Int).

[Max_Killjoy]

Ive always been of the opinion that its a little to few arcane shots, and the scaling is weird in general.

I think the UA was better overall since it at least gave you +1 arrows.

But in any case i think it functions alright. You wont be pumping out Fun Shots every turn in combat, but depending on the amount of short rests in your games you could do reasonably well. I really want it to work with a Ranger for those few ranger spells, but it be pretty mad and would come on pretty late too (and then not very many spells....sigh.)

The UA version gave the equivalent of +1 magic arrows as the default shot? Or something else?

[Man_Over_Game]

You can do nice damage by combining Swords Bard's Mobile Flourish to trigger Grasping Arrow's extra damage. Assume fighter 3, bard 6 or fighter 5 bard, 3, whichever you prefer (You'll probably want to go fighter 3 bard x for spells).

Attack 1 with Grasping Arrow:
1d8+2d6+Dex
Attack 2 with Mobile Flourish:
1d8+1d8+2d6+Dex

Taking grasping arrow's damage doesn't end the effect, so they'll keep taking that damage as long as they keep moving until someone frees them as an action (using a str check, not a save, so they won't often have good odds even if you aren't well invested in Int).

Can't use Crossbow, because Arcane Archer explicitly says Short bow or Long bow, which means Crossbow Expert is a pretty bad as a choice.

Can't attack while in melee, because Crossbow Expert is the only current method of doing so, and taking it would be a waste.

Can't use the melee oriented abilities from your Flourishes, which means that 2/3 of them are useless.

[MaxWilson]

Hello everyone!

So i have been trying to figure out what to play in my next campaign. I was thinking of playing a halfling divination wizard with the lucky feat, just for the cheesy fun, but i havnt played a martial in a while.
So what i want to know is peoples thoughts on the Arcane Archer. How does it stack up to other fighter subclasses? Is it fun to play? Do they feel underpowered or OP?
Just from reading it it looks like you get very limited uses of your arcane shot, just 2 per short or long rest. Compared to the BM this feels a little..... lacking to say the least. Is this something that feats can help make up for?
Any thought or experiances that you all have is welcomed.

Too MAD and too boring. The 7th level bonus action attack feature is pretty good when paired with Sharpshooter or something, but the magic arrows themselves are just not very interesting, and they are Int-dependent but not strong enough to justify pumping Int. And it's not like there aren't other good ways to use your bonus action, later on.

There are players who will still enjoy playing Arcane Archers, but for fluff reasons rather than mechanical reasons: they just like the fantasy of shooting magic arrows, and while the magic arrows are weak they aren't so weak as to destroy the fantasy.

Therefore, the Arcane Archer is kind of meh, like the land druid (not something I'd play unless I rolled my subclass randomly or something), but not so bad that it urgently needs DM attention, although I've given it a tiny bit of DM attention anyway: they get three shots per short rest instead of two.

[Max_Killjoy]

Can't use Crossbow, because Arcane Archer explicitly says Short bow or Long bow, which means Crossbow Expert is a pretty bad as a choice.

Can't attack while in melee, because Crossbow Expert is the only current method of doing so, and taking it would be a waste.

Can't use the melee oriented abilities from your Flourishes, which means that 2/3 of them are useless.

First thing I'd house rule -- any ranged weapon, shot or thrown, can be used for this subclass -- and push it away from being specifically an Elf thing.

[LudicSavant]

Some quick thoughts and analysis on the Arcane Archer:

Millstone pointed out that there was a mistake with this analysis, since I missed that WotC changed one of the mechanics from the original version.

Corrected analysis here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23585813&postcount=26

[Man_Over_Game]

Some quick thoughts and analysis on the Arcane Archer:
WORDS AND STUFF

Very well put. I'm planning on just linking to this for when this class comes up on my next Let's Fix.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm. LudicSavant makes a strong case for letting Arcane Archers not count arrow usages as expended unless they actually hit.

[Max_Killjoy]

Hmmm. LudicSavant makes a strong case for letting Arcane Archers not count arrow usages as expended unless they actually hit.

Just fluff and rule that the magic doesn't trigger until the arrow hits and goes off. You have to put the "spell anchor" on the arrow before firing it, but it doesn't POP until it hits.

[Millstone85]

Uh, guys...
You decide to use the option when the arrow hits a creature, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack roll.

[MaxWilson]

Just fluff and rule that the magic doesn't trigger until the arrow hits and goes off. You have to put the "spell anchor" on the arrow before firing it, but it doesn't POP until it hits.

Yep, that's how I'd do it if I implemented this ruling, and I'm seriously thinking about doing so in lieu of my up-until-now "3 shots per short rest" that no one has ever actually taken me up on. (Arcane Archer just sits on the shelf.)

For Arcane Archer:

When you fire an Arcane Shot, the ability is not expended if you miss, and that miss doesn't count against the "once per turn" limitation on Arcane Shot.

[LudicSavant]

Uh, guys...

Huh. They changed it from the playtest version. Not sure how I missed that. Thanks for the correction. Will have to go over it again, then.

[Max_Killjoy]

In my defense, I've only had the book for less than a week...

Nice to see they went with the same idea we were just kinda agreeing on.

[MaxWilson]

Uh, guys...

Huh. I'm AFB, didn't check after reading LudicSavant's post. Good to know no fix is necessary on that score--although that means I need another explanation for why Arcane Archer sits on the shelf.


Nice to see they went with the same idea we were just kinda agreeing on.

Agreed. It's still quite a bit weaker than Battlemaster though on a number of levels. Compare e.g. Menacing Attack (BM) to Beguiling Arrow (AA), for example. Menacing Attack has higher DC and an overall stronger effect (frightened: movement restrictions, disadvantage on attacks and ability checks), in addition to having twice as many usages available.

[LudicSavant]

In my defense, I've only had the book for less than a week...

Nice to see they went with the same idea we were just kinda agreeing on.

Yeah. The change makes it a lot better than the original.

(Edit/Clarification: By "original" I mean the playtest versions, where this wasn't the case. My guess would be that they listened to folks offering the same feedback everyone here came up with).

[MrStabby]

Power-wise they are ok. Fighter chassis is pretty strong by itself. I think they are a bit boring to play though.

Fighter doesn't get much that other classes don't, more ASIs taking up a lot of their levels. This means more of the flavour of what sets a character apart mechanically is in the subclass and with so few shots per day it feels like the character is somewhat bland.

I feel that there are enough other options for "arcane archer" that this iteration has a hard time finding its role. Arcane trickster, hexblade Warlock, eldritch knight, ranger and bard can ALL fill this role. Controversially I also think classes like shadow monks can give this feel as well with spellcasting and teleportation about the battlefield.

[LudicSavant]

New quick thoughts and analysis on the Arcane Archer given Millstone's very helpful correction!


A quick comparison to the Battlemaster's features:
2-6 arcane shots known vs 3-9 maneuvers known.
2 arcane shots per short rest vs 4-6 maneuvers per short rest. Given the DMG "Standard Adventuring Day" (6-8 encounters, 2 short rests) this basically means that an Arcane Archer can afford to use 1 or less Arcane Arrows per combat. Better make it count.
Int-based DCs vs main stat DCs.
Arcane Shot can only be activated once per turn, so unlike a Battlemaster's maneuvers you can't go nova with them (such as 6 maneuvers in one Action Surge).

Okay, that's a lot of disadvantages to add up. We'd better hope that the Arcane shots are a lot better than the maneuvers to make up for all of this. About 2-3 times better, in fact, because you get 2-3 times as many maneuvers, and you can easily use 2-3 in a round.

So... are they? Well let's take a look.


Some impressions on individual Arcane Shots:

Banishing Arrow: Making an enemy disappear for a round is pretty good, if it lands. It's best used when there's a single dangerous monster surrounded by troublesome mooks, but it can also be useful against a lone foe to get some breathing room and time to set up a trap upon their return.

The main downside is that this is an all-or-nothing proposition, and your save DCs are a bit below curve due to MADness. And if they make their save DC, that's basically all your Arcane Shots for the encounter.

Notably, this makes the enemy reappear at the end of its next turn, which means it spends a full round in the open before it gets a turn, after returning from the banishment.

So, is this 2-3 times better than a Battlemaster maneuver? Well, I'd say it's better than a single one, at least.

Beguiling Arrow: This seems like a worse version of Menacing Attack to me.

Bursting Arrow: The upsides of Bursting Arrow are that enemies in the AoE don’t get a saving throw.

However, this has a few limitations as an AoE ability. First, it detonates after your attack, which according to JC (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/06/25/if-you-crit-as-an-arcane-archer-and-use-exploding-arrow-to-get-an-addition-2d6-would-that-damage-also-double/) means it can't crit. Also, you can’t freely choose the point of origin; it has to be centered on a creature. This means that outside of a white room it will occasionally lose a target or two compared to other AoEs of the same radius. Third, 2d6 damage isn’t a whole lot as far as AoE damage goes… though it does have about a 50% chance to kill lowly goblins. Seems like it could combo alright with curving shots.

It's not bad, but I just don't see this one really making the kind of difference that 2-3 maneuvers could. Since it's your only arrow for the combat, it needs to be making a big difference, and a 7 damage AoE doesn't seem like all that big a deal to me.

Enfeebling Arrow: If an enemy fails their Con save, they deal half damage with its weapon attacks for a single round. If it has any other kinds of attacks at its disposal, they're unaffected.

There are a few problems here. First, Constitution is usually a good save for monsters that are reliant on weapon attacks. Second, the more dangerous monsters will usually have something else they can do with their turn even if this lands. Third, other things might have worked even better (like Shadow Arrow). And Fourth, Necrotic isn't one of the better damage types available to you.

Grasping Arrow: This has two things going against it... namely that Poison is the most commonly resisted damage type, and that the brambles can be moved by creatures other than the one entangled (which means that a boss monster surrounded by mooks might be able to remove it without much impact on their action economy).

Despite Poison being a commonly resisted damage type and the ability for mooks to remove the brambles, I’d say this is still one of the better shots provided your party synergizes with it. Not allowing a saving throw for the initial effect, a minute duration, higher damage than usual, and useful kiting sell this one.

Also, note that unlike, say, Booming Blade, the extra damage can be triggered even if an enemy is moved by force. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/09/does-the-arcane-archers-grasping-arrow-deal-slashing-damage-if-an-affected-creature-is-forcefully-moved/) And this damage can be dealt once per turn rather than per round, which means that with the right party composition you can make it combo for more damage (for instance, if you have a Warlock with Repelling Blast in your party).

I can see this one really shining in the right party composition.

Piercing Arrow: Can't be used with sharpshooter according to JC, which means that in order for this to actually increase your damage you need to be hitting a few enemies at a time, and unlike Bursting Arrow they all get a save.

One thing that really holds this back is that the range is a mere 30 feet (with no width to speak of), meaning that for this to hit multiple targets they need to be fairly close together, lined up, and you have to be in the thick of things... where you probably don't wanna be as an archer.

One situation I can see it shining, though, is that every enemy counts as being hit by "the arrow" that you fired. So, if you have something like an Arrow of Slaying, this can mow things down.

Seeking Arrow: This one's pretty situational (and another one that can't be used with Sharpshooter according to JC). You can ferret out a vanishing foe that you've seen before, such as a rogue using a cunning action to hide or a villain trying to escape. It also does half damage on a successful save, meaning that this is the only way you can get some guaranteed damage as an Arcane Archer.

That said, there are limitations. The seeking arrow can only reveal an enemy in the arrow's range, which means if the villain dimension doored away, you're probably not in range and just wasted your Arcane Shot. As for ferreting out hidden foes, you know the square they're in but still can't actually see them, which means you could still have a hard time doing much to them.

Shadow Arrow: This seems like the "go-to" arrow to me. It deals extra damage, targets Wisdom, and stops an enemy from seeing farther than 5 feet away until the start of your next turn. This is great for setting up Advantage on all of your ranged attacks for a round, as well as giving your ranged allies advantage, and hobbling an enemy's offensive potential.

If you can get the success rate for your Shadow Arrow up high enough, this compares rather favorably to the Samurai's "Fighting Spirit" since you'll actually get more Arcane Shots than they get Fighting Spirits in a standard adventuring day, at least until the Samurai hits level 10. And, unlike Fighting Spirit, allies can benefit, and enemy offense is hindered.


Altogether Shadow Arrow, Grasping Arrow, and Banishing Arrow seem like the kind of solid things that can change the tide of a fight and are at least better than a single Battlemaster maneuver. The others seem pretty situational though.

The fact that there's just 3 really good options means that the Battlemaster will end up with more versatility. And they'll have higher DCs, likely more feats (due to less MADness), and be stacking 2-3 effects for every one of yours, and they'll have the versatility to go nova.

What do you guys think?

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Hello everyone!

So i have been trying to figure out what to play in my next campaign. I was thinking of playing a halfling divination wizard with the lucky feat, just for the cheesy fun, but i havnt played a martial in a while.
So what i want to know is peoples thoughts on the Arcane Archer. How does it stack up to other fighter subclasses? Is it fun to play? Do they feel underpowered or OP?
Just from reading it it looks like you get very limited uses of your arcane shot, just 2 per short or long rest. Compared to the BM this feels a little..... lacking to say the least. Is this something that feats can help make up for?
Any thought or experiances that you all have is welcomed.
I love the arcane archer aesthetically but is actually is pretty bad. It has limited uses in its arcane shot which makes it situational. It can give a useful edge in combat against a big bad but in most situations it works as a watered down fighter with less fighterness to them. You would get a better effect out of an EK or a multiclass. Compaired to battle master or other fighter classes its just not that good at what its ment to do.

[jas61292]

Power-wise they are ok. Fighter chassis is pretty strong by itself. I think they are a bit boring to play though.

This is what I think is the truth for most people. I've read a lot of discussions on this subclass, and I think it is pretty clear that, power wise, they are good. Heck, the 7th level feature paired with Sharpshooter makes them among the most powerful damage dealers in the entire game. If there is any issue with the Arcane Archer it is not power.

No, the issue is that it doesn't function how people want. People want to use cool spell like arrow shots. And they have those. But they only get two per rest, which feels like so little. Its not. They are really good. Better than battlemaster maneuvers. But only two just feels like you are not using them that much.

The issue here is that, there is no real better way for them to have done it. I have seen people suggest fixing it by giving more shots, but their shots are better than battlemaster ones, so they would not give them more without nerfing the shots. And if they did that, you basically just end up with a battlemaster but specific to archery. And that is not a design space they ever would have gone to, because the 5e paradigm would just say to be a battlemaster and fluff yourself as magic instead.

If there is any change I think could be made, it would be to adjust the buff they do eventually get to their shots and make them improve earlier. Even if all that amounts to is having the damage go up by one die each at 10 and 18 instead of two at 18. It would just feel better, progression wise. Though, obviously this doesn't work for the shots that only go from one die to two.

[LudicSavant]

No, the issue is that it doesn't function how people want. People want to use cool spell like arrow shots. And they have those. But they only get two per rest, which feels like so little. Its not. They are really good. Better than battlemaster maneuvers. But only two just feels like you are not using them that much.

Yeah. In terms of gameplay experience, it looks like you'll basically open any given fight with Grasping, Banishing, or Shadow Arrow... and after that you're a near-subclassless Fighter for the rest of the fight (basically just Curving Shot). Seems kinda boring to me, regardless of how good those openers may or may not be. Feel-wise, a Battlemaster seems like they have a lot more moment-to-moment decisions to make.

[ad_hoc]

The Arcane Shots recharge on a short or long rest. But yeah the magic arrow kinda sucks. By lvl 7 you generally have a magic weapon.

Games with plentiful magic items skews a lot of things in the game.

The default treasure tables make this a fairly unlikely event, esp. a specific weapon like long or short bow.

Magic arrows are quite good.

Besides, Curved Shot is very good too.

Most Fighter subclasses don't get much at level 7.

[LudicSavant]

Thinking about it a bit more / expanding on earlier thoughts and impressions:


It seems to me that the worth of the Arcane Archer depends mostly on the worth of Banishing Arrow, Grasping Arrow, Shadow Arrow, and Curving Arrow. As I mentioned earlier, they need to make up a good deal of ground compared to Maneuvers, due to having less known, less per short rest, and less versatility in their use (no chance to use multiple in a turn).

I think Banishing Arrow just isn't all that. Contrast a Monk's stunning fist, which also takes an enemy out of play for a turn, but also gives you Advantage against them the whole time, plus making them automatically fail Str/Dex saves. But of course a Monk can throw multiple Stunning Fists a turn (which outweighs any advantage that the Con/Wis save difference is likely to make), and do it more times per rest than you. You can do it at range, sure, but other than that it's a lose-a-turn ability that keeps your enemy safe from harm for part of it. You also don't even get a full round of banishment out of it, since it ends on the enemy's upcoming turn (not yours), so if they have nasty reactions or escape mechanisms or even Legendary Actions, they can use 'em early!

With their many options, Battlemasters can often deny enemies turns, or severely hobble their ability to do what they want to do. They don't just have a straight "lose a turn ability" but I think the versatility makes up for it.

Also, the fact that you rely on a secondary/tertiary score for saves and don't get something like an Magical Ambush (AT) or Eldritch Strike (EK) hurts you with this sort of ability. For example, at level 3 with a 14 Int against an enemy with only a +0 Cha save, there's still only a 55% chance for your effect to land. 45% of the time, you've used up your arrow and that's all you've got for the encounter (subclass-wise). By contrast, even if a Battlemaster effect is weaker, having even an extra +1 from using their main stat and making the enemy save twice instead of once is going to up the chance of at least one success (again, assuming a +0 to save) from 55% to ~84%, and do 2d8 damage instead of 0.

Also, a lot of the stuff you'd really want to banish is gonna have Magic Resistance or Legendary Saves on top of you having a good base chance to "miss."

Grasping Arrow seems like it needs to have a particular party comp to shine compared to multiple maneuvers. Being able to apply that 2d6 damage for every ally that uses a displacement ability seems like it could add up. On the other hand, it's limited a bit by the fact that it's Poison and Slashing damage (is it even magical slashing damage?). And at the end of the day it's mostly just damage.

In terms of raw CC potential though, Menacing Attack straight up stops an enemy from being able to move closer to you, and you can stack up that save until they fail... and then use pushing attacks after that. Or you can use Tripping Attack and get all of the DPR benefits of granting Advantage to the party's attacks while still dropping the enemy's speed to 0, and this might combo even better with various party comps. And when fast damage really counts, the BM can of course still lay on more, even if it means them using up more resources.

Shadow Arrow seems the most influential and generally applicable. Psychic Damage is a rarely-resisted type, Wisdom is a decent save to target, and the effect can help set up your Action Surge as well as give Advantage to allies.

The Battlemaster has something pretty comparable in the form of Trip Attack, but Shadow Arrow has the advantage of working from long range and having no size limit.

One concern is that you basically are using this about once per fight, at best. And if they make the save, you basically just get 2d6 damage and that's it. This goes back to what I said about Banishing Arrow. You don't have a lot of way to push your saving throws to be really dangerous outside of just rolling better for stats, and this is a single target 1 round debuff that you only get to try once.

Even if you do up your Int to 20, that's putting you behind 2-3 feats if you're using point buy. And you'd still have a fair chance of enemies making their saves, or having Magic Resistance or Legendary Resistance (if they're a single target worth going nova on in the first place).

Curving Arrow is alright, but doesn't seem like it's ever going to be crucial to shifting any given fight in your favor. The value in single target damage is in focusing someone down, and this necessarily requires you to spread out your damage. And only allows that option if there's multiple targets in the first place.

Your DM might let you use this to intentionally miss something and then hit something else within 60 feet, which can be a bit handy against even a single opponent in some situations, though it'd still take a bonus action and only affect one of your attacks.


In comparison, the Battlemaster...


Can nova harder. They can potentially lay down 6 saving throws and 6d12 extra dice in a single turn.
Will probably do more damage overall, simply due to having more maneuvers, even though arrows do more damage individually.
Is much more likely to land their status effects, due to being SAD, ignoring things like magic resistance (which a lot of the big single targets you'd want to nova have), and being able to ensure a success by forcing repeated saving throws in a single turn.
Has more tactical options on hand at any given time. There is just a larger number of good maneuvers than good arcane shots, with a more diverse repertoire of functions to help you fill out your action economy and adapt to a variety of situations.
If the Arcane Archer wants to make up the difference in save DCs, they'd have to be behind 2-3 feats (with point buy). Even if they rolled all 18s, they'd have to be behind at least one feat to get their Int to 20. That could be something like "Lucky+Alert." Which would just put the BM even further ahead.

The comparison isn't as bad as the old UA versions, but unless I'm missing something it looks to me like the BM still wins this one.

[Mortis_Elrod]

The UA version gave the equivalent of +1 magic arrows as the default shot? Or something else?

Instead of geting magical arrows at 7 the UA gave you always on +1 magic arrows at 3. So you know, ever arrow is magical from the start, even when you blew your 2 shots per rest.

Besides that the UA version was pretty much the same, (slight changes to some of the shots).

Something to note though is that the Arcane Shots always deal the bonus 2d6 damage(except banishing until 18th). The DCs are usually for added affects. So at least you get that.

[Zalabim]

So... are they? Well let's take a look.

Beguiling Arrow: This seems like a worse version of Menacing Attack to me.
I'm not real impressed by Beguiling Arrow either, but it does mean that specific ally cannot be targeted by that specific creature next turn if it fails the save. With Menacing Attack, the creature can still attack with disadvantage or may use other abilities it has with no penalty, just like you noted with Enfeebling Arrow.


Bursting Arrow: The upsides of Bursting Arrow are that enemies in the AoE don’t get a saving throw.

However, this has a few limitations as an AoE ability. First, it detonates after your attack, which according to JC (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/06/25/if-you-crit-as-an-arcane-archer-and-use-exploding-arrow-to-get-an-addition-2d6-would-that-damage-also-double/) means it can't crit. Also, you can’t freely choose the point of origin; it has to be centered on a creature. This means that outside of a white room it will occasionally lose a target or two compared to other AoEs of the same radius. Third, 2d6 damage isn’t a whole lot as far as AoE damage goes… though it does have about a 50% chance to kill lowly goblins. Seems like it could combo alright with curving shots.

It's not bad, but I just don't see this one really making the kind of difference that 2-3 maneuvers could. Since it's your only arrow for the combat, it needs to be making a big difference, and a 7/save for half AoE doesn't seem like all that big a deal to me.
Bursting Arrow has no saving throw at all. Your first line is correct.

Enfeebling Arrow: If an enemy fails their Con save, they deal half damage with its weapon attacks for a single round. If it has any other kinds of attacks at its disposal, they're unaffected.

There are a few problems here. First, Constitution is usually a good save for monsters that are reliant on weapon attacks. Second, the more dangerous monsters will usually have something else they can do with their turn even if this lands. Third, other things might have worked even better (like Shadow Arrow). And Fourth, Necrotic isn't one of the better damage types available to you.
Some have good Con, some don't. Mostly no enemy has bad constitution saves though. The effect is also just weak even if it lands.


Grasping Arrow: This has two things going against it... namely that Poison is the most commonly resisted damage type, and that the brambles can be moved by creatures other than the one entangled (which means that a boss monster surrounded by mooks might be able to remove it without much impact on their action economy).

Despite Poison being a commonly resisted damage type and the ability for mooks to remove the brambles, I’d say this is still one of the better shots provided your party synergizes with it. Not allowing a saving throw for the initial effect, a minute duration, higher damage than usual, and useful kiting sell this one.

Also, note that unlike, say, Booming Blade, the extra damage can be triggered even if an enemy is moved by force. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/09/does-the-arcane-archers-grasping-arrow-deal-slashing-damage-if-an-affected-creature-is-forcefully-moved/) And this damage can be dealt once per turn rather than per round, which means that with the right party composition you can make it combo for more damage (for instance, if you have a Warlock with Repelling Blast in your party).

I can see this one really shining in the right party composition.
This is definitely the arrow that stands out for the most single target damage potential, but it relies on your party taking advantage of the victim's condition by either adding movement to their attacks, or staying away and punishing the reduced mobility. Lastly, if the boss is surrounded by helpful minions, the Arcane Archer can take advantage of that with Bursting Arrow instead.


Piercing Arrow: Can't be used with sharpshooter according to JC, which means that in order for this to actually increase your damage you need to be hitting a few enemies at a time, and unlike Bursting Arrow they all get a save.

One thing that really holds this back is that the range is a mere 30 feet (with no width to speak of), meaning that for this to hit multiple targets they need to be fairly close together, lined up, and you have to be in the thick of things... where you probably don't wanna be as an archer.

One situation I can see it shining, though, is that every enemy counts as being hit by "the arrow" that you fired. So, if you have something like an Arrow of Slaying, this can mow things down.
This also does half damage on a successful save. The short range is a major hindrance, and otherwise it's beneficial when you can hit 2 or more enemies, though it is competing with Bursting Arrow for that purpose. Technically shines against heavily armored foes, but doesn't have enough uses for that to likely make much difference.


Seeking Arrow: This one's pretty situational (and another one that can't be used with Sharpshooter according to JC). You can ferret out a vanishing foe that you've seen before, such as a rogue using a cunning action to hide or a villain trying to escape. It also does half damage on a successful save, meaning that this is the only way you can get some guaranteed damage as an Arcane Archer.

That said, there are limitations. The seeking arrow can only reveal an enemy in the arrow's range, which means if the villain dimension doored away, you're probably not in range and just wasted your Arcane Shot. As for ferreting out hidden foes, you know the square they're in but still can't actually see them, which means you could still have a hard time doing much to them.
This one seems like a mandatory inclusion, even if I don't see any practical use. Seeking arrow is just a classic.


Altogether Shadow Arrow, Grasping Arrow, and Banishing Arrow seem like the kind of solid things that can change the tide of a fight and are at least better than a single Battlemaster maneuver. The others seem pretty situational though.

The fact that there's just 3 really good options means that the Battlemaster will end up with more versatility. And they'll have higher DCs, likely more feats (due to less MADness), and be stacking 2-3 effects for every one of yours, and they'll have the versatility to go nova.

What do you guys think?
I think the analysis is incomplete if you're only looking at level 3. You left off the Arcane Archer's most commonly used shot: Curving Shot. It really highlights where the arcane archer's strengths differ from the battle master's. They have improved ability to harm groups of enemies, in exchange for less one-on-one power and flexibility.

Also, the fact that you rely on a secondary/tertiary score for saves and don't get something like an Magical Ambush (AT) or Eldritch Strike (EK) hurts you with this sort of ability. For example, at level 3 with a 14 Int against an enemy with only a +0 Cha save, there's still only a 55% chance for your effect to land. 45% of the time, you've used up your arrow and that's all you've got for the encounter (subclass-wise). By contrast, even if a Battlemaster effect is weaker, having even an extra +1 from using their main stat and making the enemy save twice instead of once is going to up the chance of at least one success (again, assuming a +0 to save) from 55% to ~84%, and do 2d8 damage instead of 0.

Also, a lot of the stuff you'd really want to banish is gonna have Magic Resistance or Legendary Saves on top of you having a good base chance to "miss."

Grasping Arrow seems like it needs to have a particular party comp to shine compared to multiple maneuvers. Being able to apply that 2d6 damage for every ally that uses a displacement ability seems like it could add up. On the other hand, it's limited a bit by the fact that it's Poison and Slashing damage (is it even magical slashing damage?). And at the end of the day it's mostly just damage.

In terms of raw CC potential though, Menacing Attack straight up stops an enemy from being able to move closer to you, and you can stack up that save until they fail... and then use pushing attacks after that. Or you can use Tripping Attack and get all of the DPR benefits of granting Advantage to the party's attacks while still dropping the enemy's speed to 0, and this might combo even better with various party comps. And when fast damage really counts, the BM can of course still lay on more, even if it means them using up more resources.
The Arcane Archer is saved by the fact that many of their effective shots are effective without needing a high Intelligence modifier. Grasping Arrow in particular does its damage and reduces movement speed with no save allowed. If they choose to move afterwards, or get forced to move, the damage is quite worthwhile. If they or their allies take the action to remove the effect, grasping arrow has cost the enemy at least one action with no saving throw required. It is guaranteed to slow the enemy down unless they teleport. Trip Attack doesn't work on larger enemies, Menacing Attack relies on Frightened, and either allows a saving throw to negate the effect.


One concern is that you basically are using this about once per fight, at best.
It's late in the levels, but the arcane archer also makes good use of the "regain 1 use" feature at level 15. Much better for it than the same feature is for battle masters.

Curving Arrow is alright, but doesn't seem like it's ever going to be crucial to shifting any given fight in your favor. The value in single target damage is in focusing someone down, and this necessarily requires you to spread out your damage. And only allows that option if there's multiple targets in the first place.

Your DM might let you use this to intentionally miss something and then hit something else within 60 feet, which can be a bit handy against even a single opponent in some situations, though it'd still take a bonus action and only affect one of your attacks.
I don't think it'll be crucial in the grand scheme of things, but it is an extra ability that the arcane archer brings to the table every round without limit. A battle master can nova, but then they really are just-a-fighter afterwards. The arcane archer has less power in "arcane shots" because curving shot is a separate, useful ability on top.


In comparison, the Battlemaster...


Can nova harder. They can potentially lay down 6 saving throws and 6d12 extra dice in a single turn.
Will probably do more damage overall, simply due to having more maneuvers, even though arrows do more damage individually.
Is much more likely to land their status effects, due to being SAD, ignoring things like magic resistance (which a lot of the big single targets you'd want to nova have), and being able to ensure a success by forcing repeated saving throws in a single turn.
Has more tactical options on hand at any given time. There is just a larger number of good maneuvers than good arcane shots, with a more diverse repertoire of functions to help you fill out your action economy and adapt to a variety of situations.
If the Arcane Archer wants to make up the difference in save DCs, they'd have to be behind 2-3 feats (with point buy). Even if they rolled all 18s, they'd have to be behind at least one feat to get their Int to 20. That could be something like "Lucky+Alert." Which would just put the BM even further ahead.

The comparison isn't as bad as the old UA versions, but unless I'm missing something it looks to me like the BM still wins this one.
The arcane archer is likely to deal more overall damage by leveraging its abilities that synergize with forced movement or affect multiple enemies, or hit secondary enemies in the case of Curving Shot. The battle master performs better against a single target.
Relying on single-target save-or-sucks to land isn't the best choice. The arcane archer can land grasping arrow with no save at all. If shadow arrow isn't as good/reliable as battle master maneuvers, then don't put all your money on shadow arrow. Any archer can mimic shadow arrow given natural darkness and enough space to avoid any enhanced senses.1
The battle master as-an-archer is highly likely to take crossbow expert too.1 Even if crossbows are allowed for the arcane archer, curving shot covers much of the value as a bonus action attack. If the AA doesn't choose to focus on single-target effects, then they'd be ahead by one feat instead.

Overall the battle master is a more versatile archetype, but the arcane archer has enough power in its differences to carve out its own separate niche.

Unless your maximum range is 120' because you're using a hand crossbow, and the creature has excellent darkvision like the drow.

[Laolir]

IMO the arcane archer is okay. Not amazing, not weak, just okay.

I just added a 1d6 damage upgrade on the arrow at lvl 10, so they get an upgrade before lvl 18, wich feel much better and the lvl 10 don't feel blank. This made piercing and seeking go to 3d6 at lvl 18, I think it's okay, they were probably on the weaker side anyway.
2 shots per rest is enough if you don't just have one encounter between long rest, and except for enfeebling arrow which is bad, the other arrow are at least okay, and some of them are really good.

[Unoriginal]

IMO the Arcane Archer is one of those subclasses which are OK mechanically, but don't do well with players' perception.

Their mechanics are basically the Warlockiest Fighter. So of course people aren't pleased with the limited slots.

[Damon_Tor]

Can't use the melee oriented abilities from your Flourishes, which means that 2/3 of them are useless.

Only Slashing Flourish requires an enemy be in melee with you. Defensive Flourish is entirely viable for a ranged character, perhaps moreso because ranged characters can take advantage of cover, and AC becomes more valuable the more of it you have. Mobile Flourish has the push effect whether or not you take advantage of the move, but I'll note that using the flourish with a ranged attack can result in a much more impressive bonus movement than using it in melee if adjacency is what you're going for. There's no reason this character would have to be limited to attacking at ranged: maybe it's how they initiate combat before closing in with a rapier.

[LudicSavant]

Thanks for the response, Zalabim! We seem to be in agreement for the most part. Though I'm not sure why you did quote/strikethrough of a couple points that you appear to agree with (like that relying on single target saving throws is troublesome).


I'm not real impressed by Beguiling Arrow either, but it does mean that specific ally cannot be targeted by that specific creature next turn if it fails the save.

Agreed.


You left off the Arcane Archer's most commonly used shot: Curving Shot.

Huh? I mentioned Curving Shot in post #31. I also mentioned using it in combination with Bursting Arrow.


Bursting Arrow has no saving throw at all. Your first line is correct. Good catch. Made the lines match.


Lastly, if the boss is surrounded by helpful minions, the Arcane Archer can take advantage of that with Bursting Arrow instead.


If I'm using 1-2 Arcane Shots in the boss fight, then Bursting Arrow doesn't really do a whole lot for the combat, even to mooks. An average CR1/2 Lizardfolk has 22 hit points. And the AoE placement is constrained (has to center on an enemy), and not too big.

To just take out a CR1/2 Lizardfolk, they have to be already badly wounded when the AoE lands.

As far as removing Grasping Arrow goes, they only need to have one mook within movement range, and they can still move in / move out to stay out of easy small AoE formation. And even if they don't, the AoE just isn't doing all that much on its own.


It's late in the levels, but the arcane archer also makes good use of the "regain 1 use" feature at level 15.

Yeah. At most levels, it's less than 1 arrow per combat per standard adventuring day. At level 15+, it's a little more than that (you basically can open your first fight with 2, then can have 1 for the rest until a short rest. The fact that you have to use 2 on your FIRST fight is a bit unfortunate, because the boss fight traditionally isn't the first one, though). Hence when talking in the general sense I say "about 1 per combat."


Relying on single-target save-or-sucks to land isn't the best choice. The arcane archer can land grasping arrow with no save at all. If shadow arrow isn't as good/reliable as battle master maneuvers, then don't put all your money on shadow arrow.

I agree. Wasn't that one of the points I was making, by listing the downsides of relying on saves as an AA? Why did you strike it through, then agree with it? :smallconfused:

[Zalabim]

I agree. Wasn't that one of the points I was making, by listing the downsides of relying on saves as an AA? Why did you strike it through, then agree with it? :smallconfused:
Because the arrows with saving throws, Banishing, Beguilding, Enfeebling, Piercing, Seeking, and Shadow, are neat gimmicks, but not the Arcane Archer's real strength. Grasping, Bursting, and Curving are what I see as their "go-to" tactics.

[LudicSavant]

Because the arrows with saving throws, Banishing, Beguilding, Enfeebling, Piercing, Seeking, and Shadow, are neat gimmicks, but not the Arcane Archer's real strength.

I'm sorry but I feel like this still doesn't answer my question. Why did you quote and strikethrough statements that agree that they aren't that strong, and explain why?

Your stance seems to agree with the very statements that you struck through. Are you actually contesting the idea that Battlemasters are better at landing save effects? If not, why did you cross out a statement saying they're better at landing save effects? :smallconfused: