Strange 3.5/Pathfinder question

[ArendK]

Strangely the dumbest question I may have of the week.

Does a paralyzed character fall prone?

[Seto]

That's actually a good question. My initial reaction was "no, since Paralyzed and Prone are different conditions, and one does not imply the other". Then I went to see the SRD. It says:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

You could argue that "DEX and STR = 0" means you should fall and remain prone. However, the interesting thing is that a Paralyzed creature can take purely mental actions, whereas a creature with a STR score of 0 is Unconscious. So the key word here is "effective DEX and STR scores of 0". Which would mean that your modifier on hypothetic opposed checks (since you can't take actions) would be -5. Maybe. It's kind of murky. But coupled with the fact that it spells out specifically what happens to flying creatures, swimming creatures, but doesn't say anything about standing creatures falling prone, it's enough to make me say that no, being paralyzed doesn't make you prone.

Considering all that, my answer would be : RAW, no. RAI, I could see it going either way, and may rule differently depending on what caused the condition. Paralyze spell? Not prone, just frozen in place. Paralyzed by a Ghoul's claw? You lose control over your muscles and fall.

[hamishspence]

You could argue that "DEX and STR = 0" means you should fall and remain prone. However, the interesting thing is that a Paralyzed creature can take purely mental actions, whereas a creature with a STR score of 0 is Unconscious.

Where's that?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm

Ability Damaged
The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

[liquidformat]

Strangely the dumbest question I may have of the week.

Does a paralyzed character fall prone?

I invoke Newton's first Law! A creature that is paralyzed while standing still will continue standing still unless they are acted upon by an outside force. The issue with this is if the paralyzed character was moving at the time, say running or heck even walking they should fall over since they were not already in a balanced stable position.

At least that is the way I have always seen it ruled by DMs...

[exelsisxax]

I invoke Newton's first Law! A creature that is paralyzed while standing still will continue standing still unless they are acted upon by an outside force. The issue with this is if the paralyzed character was moving at the time, say running or heck even walking they should fall over since they were not already in a balanced stable position.

At least that is the way I have always seen it ruled by DMs...

Gravity is a force.

[Seto]

Where's that?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm

Ability Damaged
The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

It's on the Ability Scores page (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/), in the "Ability score damage" section near the bottom (specifically in the STR subsection of that section).

Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.

It was news to me as well.

[hamishspence]

Good point. Presumably that's Pathfinder only and does not apply in regular 3.5?

[Seto]

Ah, that makes sense. If that's the case, I wonder why they changed it, though ; it seems unnecessary and rather counterintuitive to me.

[gkathellar]

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

Oh good, I was worried this wasn't going to be recursive in any way. :|

[ArendK]

My Pathfinder campaign had a fight with a pack of ghouls, and because it fit thematically from a visual standpoint of these ghouls biting and trampling over the paralyzed bodies over as they barrel out of the entrance into the fight, I ruled the paralysis knocked them prone. And one of the players seemed surprised that no longer being able to control your muscles at all resulted in falling over. I wasn't about to tell him that I was actually doing him a favor as the ghouls were going concentrate on the standing targets, and none of the paralysis rolls resulted in anyone being out of the fight for more than 3 rounds.

But from a rules standpoint, I couldn't find an answer. I referenced Hold Person, the paralysis condition, the helpless condition (which mentions paralysis as a co-condition, but not necessarily prone), STR 0 and DEX 0 conditions, and couldn't find anything that directly said Paralysis = prone; STR and DEX 0 was the closest I could find, and made a mental note to explain that even to stand takes a certain amount of physical strength (not much, but a little) that is removed by paralysis next time it came up.