Fear vs Hypnotic Pattern? Does it come down to like?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

https://thebombzen.com/grimoire/spells/fear

https://thebombzen.com/grimoire/spells/hypnotic-pattern

Just comparing:

Both Concentration

Both Wisdom Saves

Fear is a 30 ft cone, Hypnotic Pattern a 30 ft cube

Fear is range from self, Hypnotic Pattern you can project 120 feet

Fear needs Verbal, Somantic and Material Components, Hypnotic Pattern just Somantic and Material

Fear you end up with bad guys running away, I'm finding this to be a bit unpredictable. Sometimes they save and come back. Hypnotic Pattern they stand there once they fail the save.

With my 5'1" 9 Strength Elf Bard I've gotten good role playing fun out of Fear. Hypnotic Pattern I might have to play up the rainbow pattern or something, I dunno.

Which do you all like more? What advantages does each have I'm not seeing? I'm starting to lean towards Hypnotic Pattern.

[Foxhound438]

Fear you end up with bad guys running away, I'm finding this to be a bit unpredictable. Sometimes they save and come back. Hypnotic Pattern they stand there once they fail the save.


they can only re-attempt if they reach a place that's outside of line of sight, and even then they've spent turns dashing away, so they can be expected to take as many turns getting back into the fight (and also to their gear). It's possible that an enemy in an open field, or one that's just bad at wis saves, will be out for 2 entire minutes rather than just one. Note also that them moving due to the fear will still provoke opportunity attacks, and if they have to run past your allies to get their stuff back they'll provoke another on that turn.

Hypnotic pattern's big downside vs. fear is that any given target can be shaken out with an action, and if the enemy has a good idea of what's happened they'll just chain wake each other if as many as one thing resisted the spell. You also can't deal any damage to them or it ends for that creature, where an enemy fleeing due to fear can still be shot at if you see fit. hypno pattern's big advantage is that it does hit a larger area and you can do it from a distance, and in case you have to hit your own ally you can have another teammate shake them out where fear will cause your friend to run until they also can't see you.

Otherwise, there is the fact that some enemy groups will be resistant/immune to charm and others frightened, so regardless of your pick there might come a situation where the enemy is just immune to the one you take and not the other.

[Citan]

https://thebombzen.com/grimoire/spells/fear

https://thebombzen.com/grimoire/spells/hypnotic-pattern

Just comparing:

Both Concentration

Both Wisdom Saves

Fear is a 30 ft cone, Hypnotic Pattern a 30 ft cube

Fear is range from self, Hypnotic Pattern you can project 120 feet

Fear needs Verbal, Somantic and Material Components, Hypnotic Pattern just Somantic and Material

Fear you end up with bad guys running away, I'm finding this to be a bit unpredictable. Sometimes they save and come back. Hypnotic Pattern they stand there once they fail the save.

With my 5'1" 9 Strength Elf Bard I've gotten good role playing fun out of Fear. Hypnotic Pattern I might have to play up the rainbow pattern or something, I dunno.

Which do you all like more? What advantages does each have I'm not seeing? I'm starting to lean towards Hypnotic Pattern.
IMO both simply do not cater to the same uses.

First, with Fear being self-centered, you need to be close up to your enemies ipso facto. Which in turn implies (if you want to be efficient at least) that a) you have good concentration saves b) you can take a beating (because sure enemies will attack at disadvantage, but you'll probably become the prime target) OR you have friends that can protect you...
Which brings the next problem: Fear has no "protect friendlies". If you are up close and personal with a Paladin or to some extent a Cleric, high level Monk or Rogue, it should not be too much trouble. If your muscle guys are Fighter or Barbarians, you'll have to wait for them to pick Resilient: Wisdom before even trying.

On the plus side, you have a decent chance for the frightened condition to stick several rounds, and this condition is one of the best to impose in the first place.

For all these reasons, Fear is in a vaccuum best suited for Sorcerers (Careful), Paladins tagging with 1-2 guys close (Conquest or multiclass), or in the opposite a gish that has enough mobility and tankiness to (re)position himself, or a guy playing the sole and only frontliner.
If your party has no trouble with the frightened condition in general even better of course.


Hypnotic Pattern is a different beast: you can still affect friends (if not Sorcerer), but the range means you are less exposed, and also you can learn to time the cast to maximize area of effect, but *before* your own friends get into contact.
However, just one or two guys passing save may be enough to ruin all your efforts if they happen to be high in Initiative.
Since any damage or "action to wake" is enough to break the spell.

So to ensure you can really profit from the "easily kill guys one by one" expected benefit of HP, you really need to have ways to deal with whomever will save: having melee friends that can reach in time is an option, but better is having either a good high-damage dealer (close Paladin, Hexblade Blade Warlock with slots, Rogue, Whispers Bard) or any debilitating effect that can affect one/two or small group of creatures (even just putting them prone may be enough to prevent them from waking as an action -of course they could attack friends to wake them up XD).

I would tend to favor HP in a vaccuum because it seems to me a bit simpler to make it work, but my real go-to spell for "I want control whatever kind of party I'll play in" is Slow.

It seems you had a character concept and build that fit very well with Fear. So as long as you managed to never hamper the party you could keep it. If you just wanted to have external opinion on whether you'd be picking a "lesser" spell by swapping for HP, fear not (^), it's a great spell too, just brings different tactics into play. :)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Hypnotic Pattern's range and predictability are really tempting me. Not that Fear jas ever gone wrong. In fact its gone terribly right but eventually our DM quit sending us enemies in armor....then no single bad guys with low Intelligence after Phantasmal Force turned an encounter....

I'm working up a role play idea for Hypnotic Pattern

My Bard has a horse named Sunset Shimmer or did that one die and we have Twilight Sparkle now.....either way this may be fitting.

I used this to help babysit my two year old a few ago. Check out its Hypnotic Pattern

https://youtu.be/W1Z-B-_DcWU

[PhoenixPhyre]

One thing about hypnotic pattern--yes, people can be shaken awake. But that takes an action per person. So as for mass action-denial, it's still quite good. I had a whole encounter turned off by one--only one person saved and he got promptly murdered before he could go. There were others outside the field, but they were already engaged by the party and so couldn't really break off. Turned a strongly-outnumbered situation into a cherry-picking contest.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

One thing about hypnotic pattern--yes, people can be shaken awake. But that takes an action per person. So as for mass action-denial, it's still quite good. I had a whole encounter turned off by one--only one person saved and he got promptly murdered before he could go. There were others outside the field, but they were already engaged by the party and so couldn't really break off. Turned a strongly-outnumbered situation into a cherry-picking contest.

Good point, wasting actions and all.

I might just swap out to Hypnotic Pattern someday or pick it up for a different character.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Good point, wasting actions and all.

I might just swap out to Hypnotic Pattern someday or pick it up for a different character.

That's something to remember about 5e--Action Economy is king. Giving up your action to deny two other people theirs is generally a decent tradeoff. Giving up your action to deny 10 other actions (5 people fail, 5 actions to shake them awake the next turn) is amazing.

[sophontteks]

They sound like they compete, but I would only pick fear on a character who can risk getting hit. If my character can take the hits, fear is great. If he can't, fear is not so great.

[XmonkTad]

The two seem very comparable to me, with fear being slightly higher risk for a greater reward (waste an action when they fail, waste subsequent turns once they save, damage doesn't break fear, force movement procs AoO/Booming Blade). I wouldn't hold on to both, but I would say proficiency in CON saves or warcarster are very preferred for fear.

[sophontteks]

Slightly? If they make the save they are going to wreck you.

[XmonkTad]

Slightly? If they make the save they are going to wreck you.

Actually, that's fair. I agree it's significantly higher risk, though depending on positioning you still might be able to get away (storm sorc movement or something like that).

[RSP]

Fear if you’re a gish or otherwise are usually on the front lines, otherwise HP.

I tend to play gishes and love Fear, for already stated reasons, but will emphasis the dropping of weapons prior to the targets fleeing. This ruins creatures who rely on weapons for damage.

[djreynolds]

Some creatures are immune to fear or charm, or their is a combo like of drow and demons, resistant to charm or elemental stuff.

Hypnotic wave becomes very useful.

[Chronos]

Both are area-effect wis-negates disabling spells, so in that sense, they fill similar niches. Both have their pros and their cons. You probably wouldn't want to pick both, but which one to pick will depend on the character.

Another point, by the way: Hypnotic pattern also imposes the Charm condition, which is applicable in at least two ways. First, it can be used in non-combat situations, or in combat situations which you're trying to turn into non-combat situations ("No, really, guards, you're attacking the wrong guys! We're on your side, the real villains are escaping, and we should be teaming up to stop them", and you're persuading (or deceiving, depending) with advantage). Second, if you should happen to be a bard with an Instrument of the Bards, then enemies will have disadvantage in saving against it.

I think if I ever make my bard character, I'll probably go with Fear, anyway, since I envision him as being more intimidating than fascinating, but it's something to consider.

[Contrast]

First, it can be used in non-combat situations, or in combat situations which you're trying to turn into non-combat situations ("No, really, guards, you're attacking the wrong guys! We're on your side, the real villains are escaping, and we should be teaming up to stop them", and you're persuading (or deceiving, depending) with advantage).

It's worth saying that they're described as being in a 'stupor' while under the charm effect. I'd always assumed they were standing still staring into the middle distance drooling slightly until shaken awake which minimises what shenanigans you can get up to. That said I could see a DM ruling they were susceptible to suggestion in this state and letting it work like a jedi mind trick kind of vibe. Definitely one to check with your DM before you try to put it into practice.

[RSP]

It's worth saying that they're described as being in a 'stupor' while under the charm effect. I'd always assumed they were standing still staring into the middle distance drooling slightly until shaken awake which minimises what shenanigans you can get up to. That said I could see a DM ruling they were susceptible to suggestion in this state and letting it work like a jedi mind trick kind of vibe. Definitely one to check with your DM before you try to put it into practice.

Yeah, it’s up to the DM to determine how intentional the use of the word “stupor” is as it does denote the target’s are unaware of their surroundings, though this adds a completely new effect to the spell that is otherwise undescribed in the spell write up.

If it really leaves the targets in a stupor, then anyone effected by the spell is completely unaware of what transpired during the spell. You could cast it on a group of guards, kill any that pass their save and the rest wouldn’t know what happened when the spell ends. (Such as kill X guards then snap the others out of it and convince them they were all attacked by “a monster” that ran “that way”).

I think that’s more powerful than they intended, though.

[MaxWilson]

Both are area-effect wis-negates disabling spells, so in that sense, they fill similar niches. Both have their pros and their cons. You probably wouldn't want to pick both, but which one to pick will depend on the character.

Another point, by the way: Hypnotic pattern also imposes the Charm condition, which is applicable in at least two ways. First, it can be used in non-combat situations, or in combat situations which you're trying to turn into non-combat situations ("No, really, guards, you're attacking the wrong guys! We're on your side, the real villains are escaping, and we should be teaming up to stop them", and you're persuading (or deceiving, depending) with advantage). Second, if you should happen to be a bard with an Instrument of the Bards, then enemies will have disadvantage in saving against it.

I think if I ever make my bard character, I'll probably go with Fear, anyway, since I envision him as being more intimidating than fascinating, but it's something to consider.

Also, Hypnotic Pattern's charm is relevant if you've trying to avoid friendly fire: elves and half-elves have advantage on saves against charm, and Devotion paladins get an anti-charm aura for friendlies at level 7. Can make Hypnotic Pattern the perfect anti-mob spell for parties with a Devotion paladin tank.

[Slayn82]

There's the Dark Horse, Calm Emotions.

It's a Charisma Save, one of the most common dump stats, it bypasses immunities to charm and frightened status, and also is somewhat useful as a buff, while being one spell level lower than fear and Hypnotic Pattern. Sure, it only works on humanoids. Still:

Need some NPC's to stand their ground and fight the necromancers? Want to defuse an hostile situation? Resolve in your favor a Mexican Standoff? That's the spell for you. Excellent for a level 2 spell.