Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order? [Archive]

hamishspence

2018-12-21, 02:25 PM

I think the most likely answer is Eugene came up with the basic "put the Order on trial" plot - and Shojo went along with Eugene's suggestions, doing his best to make it look convincing to the Sapphire Guard.

It's possible that the first few events in the aftermath of the Gate destruction - an alarm going off on their "Gate integrity indicator"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html

followed by Shojo ordering some scrying:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

involved Shojo and senior Sapphire Guard members being present for the alarm and the scrying, so he couldn't just wave off the charges, since they knew that a gate was destroyed and somebody was responsible.

off the top of my head, for the latter:

Roy's dad had described Roy in less-than-glowing terms ("a brute with no respect for his elders"), and Shojo had reason to believe that the Order might need a bit of arm twisting to agree to come along. The teleporting wizard is, I believe, deeply invested in teleportation to the point of being utterly useless in combat. Had he been sent and the Order decided to put up a fight, he'd be dead in the first round. And Shojo had reason to believe they might.

Same with him going along - too risky to put his neck out like that, not when he's had a lifetime of experience of being in danger.

That works as well:

Keltest

2018-12-21, 02:30 PM

zimmerwald1915

2018-12-21, 02:31 PM

On top of everything that's been said, sending Miko to collect the Order has the added benefit of getting Miko out of everyone's hair for the duration of her mission.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-21, 02:33 PM

On top of everything that's been said, sending Miko to collect the Order has the added benefit of getting Miko out of everyone's hair for the duration of her mission.

Harsh, but true. Canonical, too.

Grey Wolf

hroþila

2018-12-21, 02:35 PM

The trial was used as an excuse to explain the Order's presence in Azure City and in the palace, as opposed to a bunch of northerners just appearing out of nowhere and needing to be let in and out of Shojo's chambers periodically. Since they would nominally be against this trial, sending Miko (or, theoretically, another paladin) ensures that they do arrive.
Agreed.

While Shojo could theoretically have met the Order elsewhere, there might be rumours if he had to do it regularly (hell, the teleporting wizard might talk, for one), or maybe Shojo was not willing to leave the luxuries of the palace when he could do things a bit more in the open.

Kish

2018-12-21, 02:49 PM

Next question: Why did he tell Miko he was sending her to arrest them, instead of telling her, "Bring this sealed letter to the leader of the Order of the Stick. It's imperative that it not be opened by anyone but him. Wait for his reply. If he says he's willing to come talk to me, escort him back."?

(My answer is: Because Shojo related to everyone as chess pieces. He wasn't thinking in terms of getting a message to the Order; he was thinking in terms of getting the Order to him, regardless of their desires in the matter. He was also willfully blind to how volatile Miko was, and assumed that she would obey the letter of his orders without thought, as he did with every one of the paladins.)

(Other reasons can be proposed, but "because Miko never got missions to act as a messenger" would be a really bad one, considering what her next assignment after No Cure for the Paladin Blues ended was.)

hamishspence

2018-12-21, 02:53 PM

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-21, 02:54 PM

Kish

2018-12-21, 02:56 PM

Given that Shojo died in part because he apparently didn't have a door, I cannot say with any certainty that he didn't regularly instruct his diviners to make sensitive reports he didn't know the contents of in advance in front of the paladins he was trying to manipulate, but that doesn't fit with either version of the flashback; Shojo told Miko that the Gate had been destroyed, not Sangwaan told Shojo and Miko that the Gate had been destroyed.

hamishspence

2018-12-21, 03:01 PM

Shojo told Miko that the Gate had been destroyed, not Sangwaan told Shojo and Miko that the Gate had been destroyed.

Miko also knows that the Order of the Stick, specifically, are responsible, because "diviners" say so:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html

Sangwaan being the diviners' spokeswoman at the trial

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html

so I can believe that these:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

don't show the whole story - and that she's told exactly who, before or after this.

woweedd

2018-12-21, 03:08 PM

Lacuna, someone answered one of your thousands of questions.

hamishspence

2018-12-21, 03:13 PM

Lacuna, someone answered one of your thousands of questions.

I don't think any answer other than "Shojo is really senile, not just pretending to be" would satisfy, though.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-21, 03:13 PM

Lacuna, someone answered one of your thousands of questions.
I have been down this rabbit-hole before, but thanks anyway woweedd.

Caerulea

2018-12-21, 03:31 PM

They may not want to send a non-paladin to deal explicitly with the gates. The first thing Miko did when she found them was verbally charged them with messing with the fabric of reality. Not telling them what they were accused of would have made getting them back harder, and would seem unfair. If the wizard is there, he would have heard and presumably been curious. Vaarsuvius certainly was.

Kish

2018-12-21, 03:41 PM

They may not want to send a non-paladin to deal explicitly with the gates.
Think Shojo used he/him pronouns.

Caerulea

2018-12-21, 03:45 PM

Think Shojo used he/him pronouns.
Whoops. I was referring to the entire sapphire guard upper echelons, and forgot it consisted entirely of Shojo.

hamishspence

2018-12-21, 03:55 PM

Whoops. I was referring to the entire sapphire guard upper echelons, and forgot it consisted entirely of Shojo.

I could see the "gate blowing up alarm" triggering the following sequence:

Shojo summons Sangwaan (maybe one or two other diviners as well) and Miko. Maybe even O-Chul as third in command?. Tells them the Dorukan Gate has been destroyed.

Shojo has Sangwaan scry out Dorukan's Gate. She sees rubble.

Shojo asks Sangwaan who blew up the gate. She says "The Order of the Stick". Shojo says "Then they will be arrested, put on trial, and executed (or killed if they resist arrest). But first we have to find them".

Shojo asks her to summon a Celestial. Eugene answers the summons.

Shojo questions Eugene in private (maybe asking everyone else to leave the room for a minute, with Eugene being already in disguise as a Celestial and dropping the disguise the moment they're alone.)

Shojo calls Miko back. Says "Redmountain gate has been destroyed, (which Miko already knows) You know what to do."

Miko says "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible."

Shojo says "Actually, my cat says try and take them alive if possible."

Miko says "As your cat wishes, if possible" and leaves.

Rogar Demonblud

2018-12-21, 04:45 PM

Not to mention that he has the ghost of a divination-focused wizard helping him, too, and Eugene is extremely familiar with Roy.

Actually, Eugene was an illusionist who barred Divination.

zimmerwald1915

2018-12-21, 04:50 PM

Actually, Eugene was an illusionist who barred Divination.
I didn't think you could bar Divination in 3.0 or 3.5.

Rogar Demonblud

2018-12-21, 04:53 PM

*shrugs*

OOPCs says he did, or at least thought he did as the phrasing is a trifle ambiguous.

hamishspence

2018-12-21, 04:54 PM

I didn't think you could bar Divination in 3.0 or 3.5.

OOPCs says he did, or at least thought he did as the phrasing is a trifle ambiguous.

You can't in 3.5. You can in 3.0. If you're an illusionist, and you're barring Divination, you must also bar Necromancy.

zimmerwald1915

2018-12-21, 04:54 PM

*shrugs*

OOPCs says he did, or at least thought he did as the phrasing is a trifle ambiguous.
Welp, time to re-read the thing.

Fyraltari

2018-12-21, 05:58 PM

Shojo didn't want the Order to have a choice. Arresting them and rigging them a trial gave him leverage: if they don't obey him, he'll have them rejudged with an actual jury (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html).

Rogar Demonblud

2018-12-22, 12:13 AM

You can't in 3.5. You can in 3.0. If you're an illusionist, and you're barring Divination, you must also bar Necromancy.

Ah, so we have another 3E joke in the prequel.

Mike Havran

2018-12-22, 05:32 AM

I think Grey Wolf's interpretation is the most likely. Powerful wizards with Teleport (Shojo later specified the Wizard Guy is his best wizard) are both valuable and frail. I wouldn't send such an asset into the blind, especially since the adventurers were, at that point, seen as loose cannons at best. Miko, on the other hand, was a master of combat.

Elvensilver

2018-12-22, 02:05 PM

There are a lot of reasons, why Miko is better suited to get unwilling people back than a wizard. But maybe the order couldn't be found magically, only be identified?

There was the spell Cloister. Xykon did know how do cast it http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html, and after the dungeon blew up, the order was probably (given that they stayed a few days) for some time shielded from any divination. Probably even Sangwoon couldn't scry them, that is probably why they had to get a "celestial" summoned to get clarifications on the gate blowing up.

Even though in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html, Miko states that the AG-Diviners wouldn't make mistakes, she never said that these diviners scried on the order, just that their magic indicates that the order is to blame. Which coincidently could also mean, that a certain celestial being of pure law and good might have told them after an inquiry.
If they only knew who did it and not where they went afterwards; it makes sense to send a paladin that can take care of herself, has a point in track (and gets out of everyones hair), instead of a squishy wizard to track and bring back the order.

hamishspence

2018-12-22, 02:11 PM

Probably even Sangwoon couldn't scry them, that is probably why they had to get a "celestial" summoned to get clarifications on the gate blowing up.

There was definitely a scrying sensor:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

but it's possible it wasn't sending them back any information, like here with a later Cloister:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 04:03 PM

There are a lot of reasons, why Miko is better suited to get unwilling people back than a wizard...
...But why the assumption that it has to be one or the other? High-level wizards can cast teleport several times a day and bring several passengers. High-level clerics can cast wind walk several times a day with similar effects. If he really wanted to, Shojo could have had a small army tracking down the Order in less than 24 hours. Or he could have his transport divisions drop off Miko, or any other team of whatever size and composition he wished, relatively close to the ruins.

Shojo didn't want the Order to have a choice. Arresting them and rigging them a trial gave him leverage: if they don't obey him, he'll have them rejudged with an actual jury (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html).
You only need leverage to get people to do things they don't want to do. Roy actively wants to destroy Xykon. The only reason he needed leverage over Roy in the first place was because he pissed him off through forcing the arrest.

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 04:13 PM

You only need leverage to get people to do things they don't want to do. Roy actively wants to destroy Xykon. The only reason he needed leverage over Roy in the first place was because he pissed him off through forcing the arrest.

There is such a thing as being overly cautious. Shojo isn't really of the "trusting" sort.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 04:21 PM

There is such a thing as being overly cautious. Shojo isn't really of the "trusting" sort.
Insofar as caution is about 'minimising danger', I think this hinges on a rather warped assessment of relative risks.

By the way, I don't see any inherent problem with sending the Wizard by himself- technically he'd need to be level 18 or higher to transport the entire Order with one casting of teleport, which means he could plausibly go toe to toe with Xykon himself- but the more salient objection is simply that Shojo would probably not have been able to conceal the news of the Keep's destruction. I would have to assume that someone else in the Guard would have noticed the gate-indicator for Dorukan's Keep blinking off, which would necessitate sending a party to investigate regardless.

hamishspence

2018-12-22, 04:23 PM

By the way, I don't see any inherent problem with sending the Wizard by himself- technically he'd need to be level 18 or higher to transport the entire Order with one casting of teleport, which means he could plausibly go toe to toe with Xykon himself.

Xykon is at minimum low-epic.

That wizard is also a drunkard, who managed to get killed in a fight with a roc (with the Order present) - a roc is a vastly weaker threat than Xykon is.

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 04:26 PM

Insofar as caution is about 'minimising danger', I think this hinges on a rather warped assessment of relative risks.

If the risk in question is "part of all of the Order quitting", then not really. He offered them the job and only showed the stick when Roy started giving him trouble.

The Pilgrim

2018-12-22, 04:30 PM

Shojo didn't send the wizard to fetch the Order, because the wizard was not high level enough to cast teleport at the time. He won a level sometime between Shojo's sending Miko to fetch the Order at #120 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html), and the Wizard's first apparition in-comic at #340 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html). 220 panels is time enough to earn a level.

There, question aswered. Please move on.

Peelee

2018-12-22, 04:36 PM

...But why the assumption that it has to be one or the other? High-level wizards can cast teleport several times a day and bring several passengers.

Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)

This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature per three caster levels

You only need leverage to get people to do things they don't want to do. Roy actively wants to destroy Xykon.
He also believed he had destroyed Xykon.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 04:40 PM

Shojo didn't send the wizard to fetch the Order, because the wizard was not high level enough to cast teleport at the time...
Not likely unless he gained 10 levels in that interval. Wizards can access teleport from level 9, he's level 18 or higher (in theory, he might be epic.)

That wizard is also a drunkard, who managed to get killed in a fight with a roc (with the Order present) - a roc is a vastly weaker threat than Xykon is.
Sure he did. And Xykon managed to lose to a bunch of level-10 idiots with a squad of minions and senior cleric on his side. Everyone has their off-days.

If the risk in question is "part of all of the Order quitting"...
But why would that be the only risk he considers? What about the risk that Miko will kill one or more of them- given that Belkar is, you know Evil- and/or the risk that they could kill her right back? What about the risk of pissing them off sufficiently that they go blab about all this to the paladins, or that his ruse is otherwise uncovered? I could use several adjectives to describe Shojo's plan here, but 'cautious' is not one of them.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 04:42 PM

He also believed he had destroyed Xykon.
So you tell Roy that Xykon was alive. Using a Sending spell. Or a letter delivered by teleporting courier. Or an oral message delivered by teleporting courier. Because there's no reason why Shojo actually needs to conceal that information from anyone, including the paladins.

Kish

2018-12-22, 04:46 PM

What total level would the Class and Level Numbers Uber Alles thread say Tsukiko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html) had to be? (Remember, Mystic Theurge only has ten levels pre-epic, and her cleric levels won't contribute to her arcane spellcasting.)

Guess she had really awful luck to get so effortlessly crushed by a goblin cleric so much lower level than her.

(For the benefit of those people who haven't followed earlier rounds of this debate: I am throwing shade at the idea that Rich has ever shown any concern for the rules limiting who can go along on a teleport and, with it, the idea that there's any reason to believe Shojo's sole teleporting wizard was any higher level than 9.)

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 04:51 PM

But why would that be the only risk he considers? What about the risk that Miko will kill one or more of them- given that Belkar is, you know Evil
He ordered her not to. I think it's pretty well established that he did not have Miko as under control as he thought he had.

and/or the risk that they could kill her right back?
That's legitimate but she is the strongest of the Sapphire Guard and he is a paranoiac, so it makes sense that he'd be more worried about people betraying him/quitting on him than about his agents being beaten.

What about the risk of pissing them off sufficiently that they go blab about all this to the paladins, That's what the leverage is for.

or that his ruse is otherwise uncovered?
That's inherent to all schemes and he is a schemer.

Peelee

2018-12-22, 04:54 PM

So you tell Roy that Xykon was alive. Using a Sending spell. Or a letter delivered by teleporting courier. Or an oral message delivered by teleporting courier. Because there's no reason why Shojo actually needs to conceal that information from anyone, including the paladins.

There's no reason Belkar should not have kept his tracking skill up, despite being a ranger. Or even been a ranger with such low wisdom. There's no reason Vaarsuvius should have been so obsessed with magic that they literally sold their soul to fix a problem. There's no reason that Roy should have kept travelling with Elan once he realized that Elan could be detrimental to the party.

Or we could accept that characters are not mindless automata who never make sub-optimal decisions because of how they are characterized. [insert shocked Pikachu expression]

hamishspence

2018-12-22, 04:54 PM

What total level would the Class and Level Numbers Uber Alles thread say Tsukiko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html) had to be?

At the moment "minimum 14th level", plus "casts as at least 11th level wizard" is what the Geekery thread is saying.

If it's 3Wiz/ 3Cleric/ 8Theurge, then she casts as 11th level cleric as well.

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 04:55 PM

There's no reason Belkar should not have kept his tracking skill up, despite being a ranger. Or even been a ranger with such low wisdom. There's no reason Vaarsuvius should have been so obsessed with magic that they literally sold their soul to fix a problem. There's no reason that Roy should have kept travelling with Elan once he realized that Elan could be detrimental to the party.

Or we could accept that characters are not mindless automata whonever make sub-optimal decisions because of how they are characterized. https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/027/475/Screen_Shot_2018-10-25_at_11.02.15_AM.jpg

Very well said.

Peelee

2018-12-22, 04:57 PM

Very well said.

I am the best coder ever.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 05:00 PM

What total level would the Class and Level Numbers Uber Alles thread say Tsukiko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html) had to be?
Huh. Fair point.

Anyway, none of this would have stopped the wizard (or a senior cleric) from transporting members of the Guard if required. Not that I think that contacting the Order should even have been the primary concern, but you could certainly do it.

He ordered her not to.
Even if you treat the 'my cat said' panel as reliable- which I honestly don't- that's his cat saying so. There was nothing to stop him saying, in crystal-clear ringing tones, "the being of pure law and good we summoned tells me that the real threat here was a lich sorceror named Xykon and most of the Order are good-to-neutral. Please handle them with care."

Discounting all the risks involved in his actual plan-as-executed is not constructive paranoia. It's just being daft.

hamishspence

2018-12-22, 05:02 PM

Even if you treat the 'my cat said' panel as reliable- which I honestly don't- that's his cat saying so.

Miko knows his cat can't talk and is just a regular cat. But she plays along - "As your cat wishes" - but knowing that he's saying it, not Scruffy.

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 05:03 PM

I am the best coder ever.
if(bug==true) then

bug=false;
end

constructive paranoia

There is no such thing.

Peelee

2018-12-22, 05:03 PM

Discounting all the risks involved in his actual plan-as-executed is not constructive paranoia. It's just being daft.
That's a good point, I wonder if it will massively backfire if he's ever suddenly taken out before an important impending event?

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 05:05 PM

Miko knows his cat can't talk and is just a regular cat. But she plays along - "As your cat wishes" - but knowing that he's saying it, not Scruffy.
To the extent that Miko plays along, she also "knows" Shojo is saying this because he is insane. Perhaps you consider blind obedience to a madman's unexplained whims to be a virtue, but I don't, especially.

There is no such thing.
Sure there is (https://www.businessinsider.com/constructive-paranoia-2013-1?r=US&IR=T).

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 05:07 PM

Or we could accept that characters are not mindless automata who never make sub-optimal decisions because of how they are characterized. [insert shocked Pikachu expression]
Fine, Peelee. I look forward to seeing Roy sell his ancestral weapon for a bucket of nickels and spend a week at the slot machines in vegas before attempting to assault Xykon with a wooden spoon, because he's 'not a mindless automaton who never makes sub-optimal decisions'.

hamishspence

2018-12-22, 05:07 PM

To the extent that Miko plays along, she also "knows" Shojo is saying this because he is insane.

More "senile" than "insane".

Hence him not having been deposed already by his heir Hinjo for the safety of the city.

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 05:12 PM

Sure there is (https://www.businessinsider.com/constructive-paranoia-2013-1?r=US&IR=T).

That's not paranoia. Paranoia is being irrationally worried that people are plotting against you. It's about trust in people not recognizing actual safety hazards. Please don't use the names of actuall illnesses to describe positive behaviours. Seriously, I thought you were better than that, Lacuna Caster.

Peelee

2018-12-22, 05:17 PM

Fine, Peelee. I look forward to seeing Roy sell his ancestral weapon for a bucket of nickels and spend a week at the slot machines in vegas before attempting to assault Xykon with a wooden spoon, because he's 'not a mindless automaton who never makes sub-optimal decisions'.

So the only choices are specifically how you think it should happen or lolrandom?

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 05:21 PM

Kish

2018-12-22, 05:25 PM

So the only choices are specifically how you think it should happen or lolrandom?
Indeed, Roy has already demonstrated that he's quite irrational where his sword is concerned. This resulted in him spending a while with no weapon at all, and ignoring the idea of getting a ranged weapon in favor of focusing on making his sword become a ranged weapon.

It did not result in his behavior becoming random.

I'm also kind of amused by the juxtaposition of D&D rules saying the teleporting wizard must be level 18 to teleport six other people, so he's level 18 whether that fits with the comic at all or not, but an actual depicted panel in the comic can be handwaved away. That is seriously back-to-front priorities.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 06:27 PM

That's not paranoia. Paranoia is being irrationally worried that people are plotting against you...
I did not invent this term, Fryaltari. It's not intended as an insult against the marginalised and I have never heard anyone else refer to it as such. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Jared Diamond. Or are you saying that Shojo is genuinely mentally ill?

I'm also kind of amused by the juxtaposition of D&D rules saying the teleporting wizard must be level 18 to teleport six other people, so he's level 18 whether that fits with the comic at all or not...
Kish, fine: I acknowledge the comic is probably house-ruled so that teleport spells aren't passenger-limited. Do you want a medal or something? It doesn't change any of my other salient points about Shojo being able to transport agents rapidly over large distances.

So the only choices are specifically how you think it should happen or lolrandom?
I need you to explain how Shojo's decisions were noticeably less lolrandom. Or, here, let me give another example:

Roy learns that Julia has been kidnapped by the Linear Guild. His reaction is to send Belkar- and only Belkar, his least dependable, most bloodthirsty follower- to Cliffport, on horseback, to negotiate a ransom agreement- he should 'try hard' to avoid bloodshed. But he doesn't actually tell Belkar why Julia was kidnapped, or exactly where to find the kidnappers, or any of the other pieces of relevant information he might share, because... something something paranoia.

Assume that Roy has access to teleport spells, and Belkar is level 16 and actually loyal to Roy. Now, what component of this plan makes even a particle of sense?

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 06:44 PM

I did not invent this term, Fryaltari. It's not intended as an insult against the marginalised and I have never heard anyone else refer to it as such. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Jared Diamond.
I didn't invent the term is not an excuse to use it. I know you don't intended it an insult, but it is trivializing.

Or are you saying that Shojo is genuinely mentally ill?
Yes and no. Shojo himself uses the term (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html) and I don't know wether that's a joke of the comic or an actual thing in D&D. In any case his behaviour is consistent with someone who doesn't trust the people around him, which could be a result of mild paranoia (most likely related to the assassination attempts), maybe? I'm not a psychiatrist.

All I'm saying is that it makes sense for Shojo to be interested in having a way to force the Order to obey him. Is that the best course of action? No. But you wouldn't have a story if people followed the best course of action. Shojo's plan is intellignet enough to have a chance to work and is true to his nature as a backhanded sheming sneak. This is not a fault in the story.

Kish

2018-12-22, 06:46 PM

There is no "Improved Paranoia" feat. Whether Shojo is making a joke, or the comic is making a joke that involves Shojo, it seems clear that he, like Girard, considered being paranoid good. (The comic implied Girard was right. You can tell this from the name of the strip "Paranoia Will Save Ya.")

(The previous parenthetical may contain extreme amounts of sarcasm.)

Aeson

2018-12-22, 06:51 PM

Is that a strawman or a slippery slope?
Strawman; strawmen are distortions or misrepresentations of the opponent's viewpoints, and equating "characters are not mindless automata who never make sub-optimal decisions" with "Roy will sell his sword for a bucket of nickels to lose in Vegas slot machines" is a gross distortion or misrepresentation of the original statement. What Pelee said - essentially, "characters can make suboptimal decisions" - isn't the same as how Lacuna Caster represented it - essentially, "characters will make disastrously-bad decisions."

A slippery slope would've been a (possibly implied) sequence of events set in motion by a sub-optimal decision, or possibly a sequence of sub-optimal decisions each following on from the previous, that eventually leads to a bad result, rather than a single disastrously-bad decision which instantly ruins everything. A slippery slope argument goes more like this: Fool around with your girl/boyfriend in High School and you'll be stuck flipping burgers at McDonald's for the rest of your life. Why? Because one of you will end up pregnant, so you'll need to drop out of school and get a job to support your family, which means you won't be able to get a high school diploma. Without a high school diploma, you won't be able to get into college, which means you won't be able to get a bachelor's degree. Without a bachelor's degree, you won't be able to get a good job, which means you'll be stuck flipping burgers at McDonald's for the rest of your life. You don't want to be stuck flipping burgers at McDonald's for the rest of your life.

Peelee

2018-12-22, 07:12 PM

I need you to explain how Shojo's decisions were noticeably less lolrandom.

Can do! Check it:

Shojo was so severely paranoid that he hobbled Azure City to the point that it affected Hinjo's ability to effectively hold everything together by the time Xykon attacked, and all his actions can be justified through the lens of that paranoia.

tl;dr - what's in the comic. That you don't like it doesn't make it any less valid.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 07:14 PM

I didn't invent the term is not an excuse to use it. I know you don't intended it an insult, but it is trivializing.
But nobody intends it as an insult, is my point. If it makes you more comfortable I can avoid using it, but my original point was that this doesn't describe Shojo's behaviour.

All I'm saying is that it makes sense for Shojo to be interested in having a way to force the Order to obey him.
I would argue that actually destroying Xykon is the more pressing priority, but again, how is this mutually exclusive with using teleport spells and persuasive paladins to retrieve the Order quietly for trial in the first place? (They did blow up the Gate, and Sangwaan & Co. did identify them as the culprits, so Shojo doesn't actually have much alternative on that score.) Shojo could have beamed the Order directly to the throne room, run the trial, explained his motives and beamed them back to the ruins to chase Xykon in under 24 hours. Or just make their assistance a condition of some kind of plea-bargain arrangement.

Fyraltari

2018-12-22, 07:19 PM

(EDIT:
But nobody intends it as an insult, is my point. If it makes you more comfortable I can avoid using it, but my original point was that this doesn't describe Shojo's behaviour.
People using mental illnesses to refer tordinary behaviour ("I like to have my things in order, I have such an OCD") is a pet peeve of mine. But you do agree that Shojo is manipulative, right?)

I would argue that actually destroying Xykon is the more pressing priority, but again, how is this mutually exclusive with using teleport spells and persuasive paladins to retrieve the Order quietly for trial in the first place? (They did blow up the Gate, and Sangwaan & Co. did identify them as the culprits, so Shojo doesn't actually have much alternative on that score.) Shojo could have beamed the Order directly to the throne room, run the trial, explained his motives and beamed them back to the ruins to chase Xykon in under 24 hours. Or just make their assistance a condition of some kind of plea-bargain arrangement.

So you're not complaining that he had the Order arrested? Just on how he did? The wizard was on a field research trip in the demiplane of toothpaste or something. There. Explained.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 07:28 PM

So you're not complaining that he had the Order arrested? Just on how he did? The wizard was on a field research trip in the demiplane of toothpaste or something. There. Explained.
Well, speaking personally I would have focused on locating Xykon ASAP with every resource at my disposal and sorted out the legal niceties later. But even if you wave away the wizard, you also need to wave away the High Priest of the Twelve, and any other amenable clerics in the city who could cast Wind Walk. (Besides, with Sending spells, you can always contact the wizard and call him back, even on other planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm).)

Caerulea

2018-12-22, 09:04 PM

if(bug==true) then
bug=false;
end
error: expected ';' after 'end' token

Lacuna, what are you arguing? That Shojo did not act perfectly in all of his decisions? That he was a terrible ruler who ruined Azure City?

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-22, 09:44 PM

error: expected ';' after 'end' token

Lacuna, what are you arguing? That Shojo did not act perfectly in all of his decisions? That he was a terrible ruler who ruined Azure City?
That if Shojo is supposed to be some kind of CG machiavellian puppetmaster who retains absolute control over all branches of government despite everyone thinking he's crazy, then I expect him to be really, really, crazily smart. His actual record of behaviour does not live up to this standard. In fact, it's so bafflingly poor that I have to consider it a kind of plot hole, particularly when any of the people around him could easily ask any of the same questions.

I mean, seriously, does Miko labour under the impression that teleport spells just don't exist? Does O-Chul, the speak-truth-to-power guy with a military background, not ask any perfectly reasonable questions about the tactical wisdom of only sending one paladin to cope with six dangerous perpetrators they know nothing about? Does Sangwaan, whose literal job description is seeing the future, not foresee any hazardous side-effects of sending their most smite-happy paladin on an ostensibly diplomatic mission? This reflects almost as badly on the Guard as a whole as it does on Shojo himself, not to mention Eugene, who presumably knows what a Sending spell is.

Keltest

2018-12-22, 09:46 PM

Well, speaking personally I would have focused on locating Xykon ASAP with every resource at my disposal and sorted out the legal niceties later. But even if you wave away the wizard, you also need to wave away the High Priest of the Twelve, and any other amenable clerics in the city who could cast Wind Walk. (Besides, with Sending spells, you can always contact the wizard and call him back, even on other planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm).)

Shojo isn't allowed to send the Sapphire Guard out unless he can prove an imminent threat to his specific gate. Hence involving the Order: he can send them out to gather information and then, if it turns out that Xykon is instead heading to, say, Gerard's gate, they can head up there first, warn the defenders and assist in the defense. I believe he also thought he could convince the paladins to break their oath if the threat to the other gates was sufficiently large, but that was never a major part of his plan.

That if Shojo is supposed to be some kind of CG machiavellian puppetmaster who retains absolute control over all branches of government despite everyone thinking he's crazy, then I expect him to be really, really, crazily smart. His actual record of behaviour does not live up to this standard. In fact, it's so bafflingly poor that I have to consider it a kind of plot hole, particularly when any of the people around him could easily ask any of the same questions.

I mean, seriously, does Miko labour under the impression that teleport spells just don't exist? Does O-Chul, the speak-truth-to-power guy with a military background, not ask any perfectly reasonable questions about the tactical wisdom of only sending one paladin to cope with six dangerous perpetrators they know nothing about? Does Sangwaan, whose literal job description is seeing the future, not foresee any hazardous side-effects of sending their most smite-happy paladin on an ostensibly diplomatic mission? This reflects almost as badly on the Guard as a whole as it does on Shojo himself, not to mention Eugene, who presumably knows what a Sending spell is.

Miko is not on a diplomatic mission, she's on a mission to capture prisoners. And as she quite handily defeats the order twice, i'd say that Shojo's assessment of her capabilities was spot on. And theres no specific reason she needs to teleport instead of walk.

Mightymosy

2018-12-22, 10:05 PM

That if Shojo is supposed to be some kind of CG machiavellian puppetmaster who retains absolute control over all branches of government despite everyone thinking he's crazy, then I expect him to be really, really, crazily smart. His actual record of behaviour does not live up to this standard. In fact, it's so bafflingly poor that I have to consider it a kind of plot hole, particularly when any of the people around him could easily ask any of the same questions.

I mean, seriously, does Miko labour under the impression that teleport spells just don't exist? Does O-Chul, the speak-truth-to-power guy with a military background, not ask any perfectly reasonable questions about the tactical wisdom of only sending one paladin to cope with six dangerous perpetrators they know nothing about? Does Sangwaan, whose literal job description is seeing the future, not foresee any hazardous side-effects of sending their most smite-happy paladin on an ostensibly diplomatic mission? This reflects almost as badly on the Guard as a whole as it does on Shojo himself, not to mention Eugene, who presumably knows what a Sending spell is.

Dude, I'll help you out a bit, with some of your concerns:

Teleport and Future Vision are plot-breaking powers, if you really take the time to break things down and follow their logical implications down to the ground.
I can't really think of any story where either power is readily available to more than one person and the story universe makes perfect sense (except maybe stories which are entirely built around these powers, maybe?

So, basically any storyteller uses these as plot-device pretty much only when they see fit. Sometimes they build in good excuses for the readily appearant plotholes that are caused by the availability of these powers, sometimes they build in poor excuses, and most times they just don't bother at all.

My point is, if these powers exist in a story, don't poke the story universe's logic too hard, or you will be dissappointed 99,9% of stories.

And, for the record, the Giant is actually good at using these powers in a way and shape that the huge plot holes are at least not screaming into your face. Yes, you find them after thinking, but at least for me, the story was fluent enough on the first few reads that I didn't stop to wonder WTF the characters didn't do X or Y. But, of course, YMMV depending on your intellect and your way of reading stories.

Peelee

2018-12-22, 10:19 PM

Ruck

2018-12-22, 10:25 PM

Then stop thinking he was supposed to be that.

Nobody except you has ever called him a machiavellian puppet master. The author himself said that Shojo's actions crippled Azure City and it became apparent as soon as Shojo died. Everything fits perfectly if you see him as barely holding everything together with spit and baling wire.

I dunno about you, but when I hear that all the weight has shifted to a single pillar that later collapsed, my first thought isn't "but that was supposedly the single strongest pillar known to man, plot hole, PLOT HOLE!"

But if it's a plot hole, then that means Rich was somehow objectively wrong in how he wrote Shojo, Miko, and the Sapphire Guard as characters, and thus Lacuna will be vindicated.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-24, 05:01 PM

Nobody except you has ever called him a machiavellian puppet master. The author himself said that Shojo's actions crippled Azure City and it became apparent as soon as Shojo died. Everything fits perfectly if you see him as barely holding everything together with spit and baling wire.
Except that's not what's described as the likely trajectory of Azure City absent the invasion or Miko's regicide. According to the author, Shojo brought decades of prosperity and would ordinarily have been succeeded by Hinjo in an orderly fashion who would have gone on to reform the system. And I think you pretty much have to be a machiavellian puppet-master in order to control a government without that government ever noticing who's really in control.

Shojo isn't allowed to send the Sapphire Guard out unless he can prove an imminent threat to his specific gate... And theres no specific reason she needs to teleport instead of walk.
Keltest, I am awed by your ability to retain obscure information (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22705732&viewfull=1#post22705732).

Teleport and Future Vision are plot-breaking powers, if you really take the time to break things down and follow their logical implications down to the ground...

...And, for the record, the Giant is actually good at using these powers in a way and shape that the huge plot holes are at least not screaming into your face. Yes, you find them after thinking, but at least for me, the story was fluent enough on the first few reads that I didn't stop to wonder WTF the characters didn't do X or Y. But, of course, YMMV depending on your intellect and your way of reading stories.
If you're arguing that the vast majority of readers aren't ever going to notice this hole, you're probably right. And if you want to argue that the story has other virtues and/or that the minority of readers who ever notice won't care much, you're... also probably right. But this kind of forumite nit-picking seems to be perfectly fine when it comes to other franchises (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?575975-Great-Lakes-Earth-Map-And-the-Questions-that-Come-With-It&p=23565012&viewfull=1#post23565012), so I'm not sure why pointing it out within OOTS meets with such prodigious resistance.

Caerulea

2018-12-24, 05:08 PM

Except that's not what's described as the likely trajectory of Azure City absent the invasion or Miko's regicide. According to the author, Shojo brought decades of prosperity and would ordinarily have been succeeded by Hinjo in an orderly fashion who would have gone on to reform the system. And I think you pretty much have to be a machiavellian puppet-master in order to control a government without that government ever noticing who's really in control.

He is explicitly in control of the government. He doesn't need to be brilliant to act like a fool, and then decree stuff. He is rather intelligent, and good at politics and the logistics of managing Azure city. He crippled Azure city in the sense that he undermined the political system, and built something that would be a lot of work to hold together absent him.

Keltest, I am awed by your ability to retain obscure information (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22705732&viewfull=1#post22705732).

Would you mind putting your response here, so I don't have to read though a massive wall of text in another 15 page thread to understand what you mean.

If you're arguing that the vast majority of readers aren't ever going to notice this hole, you're probably right. And if you want to argue that the story has other virtues and/or that the minority of readers who ever notice won't care much, you're... also probably right. But this kind of forumite nit-picking seems to be perfectly fine when it comes to other franchises (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?575975-Great-Lakes-Earth-Map-And-the-Questions-that-Come-With-It&p=23565012&viewfull=1#post23565012), so I'm not sure why pointing it out within OOTS meets with such prodigious resistance.
Because it is not a plot hole.

Keltest

2018-12-24, 05:12 PM

Keltest, I am awed by your ability to retain obscure information (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22705732&viewfull=1#post22705732).

Is there some reason you feel I would be moved by an argument that is A: based on a fundamental misunderstanding of Shojo's goals and abilities and B: one which I have responded to previously and was not impressed by.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-24, 05:25 PM

He is explicitly in control of the government. He doesn't need to be brilliant to act like a fool, and then decree stuff. He is rather intelligent, and good at politics and the logistics of managing Azure city. He crippled Azure city in the sense that he undermined the political system, and built something that would be a lot of work to hold together absent him.
Fine, but in that case the likely scenario is not that Hinjo succeeds in an orderly manner and reforms the system. The conceivable scenario is that Shojo lives long enough to educate/corrupt Hinjo so that he's capable of governing in a similar manner, but it's equally likely that Shojo would die of old age first or Hinjo would just refuse to govern that way, and then he's vulnerable to coups and assassinations on account of not being able to run the government.

Would you mind putting your response here, so I don't have to read though a massive wall of text in another 15 page thread to understand what you mean.
In my experience, not without turning this into another fifteen page thread.

Keltest

2018-12-24, 05:28 PM

Fine, but in that case the likely scenario is not that Hinjo succeeds in an orderly manner and reforms the system. The conceivable scenario is that Shojo lives long enough to educate/corrupt Hinjo so that he's capable of governing in a similar manner, but it's equally likely that Shojo would die of old age first or Hinjo would just refuse to govern that way, and then he's vulnerable to coups and assassinations on account of not being able to run the government.

In my experience, not without turning this into another fifteen page thread.

As a rule of thumb "the author was wrong/lying" is not a convincing argument. Hinjo's position was substantially weakened by the impending invasion. Barring that, his personal soldiers (and, possibly, the Sapphire Guard, since internal strife threatens the Gate) would be able to subdue any nobles who rebelled, and his personal power provides him with significantly more protection against assassination than Shojo had.

Peelee

2018-12-24, 08:09 PM

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-24, 08:28 PM

There's a quote that applies here. "It appears not everyone agrees with your analysis."

As a rule of thumb "the author was wrong/lying" is not a convincing argument...
Peelee was the one arguing that Shojo was clearly not a high-Int machiavellian puppetmaster because his actions manifestly led to disaster for his city. I pointed out that the author himself argued to the contrary- that Shojo's actions only led to disaster due to highly specific circumstances which he could not reasonably foresee, and that his reign was otherwise beneficial and would have led to a smooth transition of power.

I don't actually agree with this analysis, but if Peelee is the one who wants to take the author at his word, then he's the one who needs to retract his argument.

(Also, given that I have an exceedingly dim opinion of the Twelve Gods' track-record of moral evaluations, that comparison doesn't much bother me.)

Keltest

2018-12-24, 08:36 PM

Peelee was the one arguing that Shojo was clearly not a high-Int machiavellian puppetmaster because his actions manifestly led to disaster for his city. I pointed out that the author himself argued to the contrary- that Shojo's actions only led to disaster due to highly specific circumstances which he could not reasonably foresee, and that his reign was otherwise beneficial and would have led to a smooth transition of power.

I don't actually agree with this analysis, but if Peelee is the one who wants to take the author at his word, then he's the one who needs to retract his argument.

(Also, given that I have an exceedingly dim opinion of the Twelve Gods' track-record of moral evaluations, that comparison doesn't much bother me.)

Nowhere does Rich say "yes, Shojo was clearly a masterful manipulator who had everybody dancing to exactly his tune." He tricked the nobles into fighting with each other instead of him, and had some handy leverage on the Order almost literally fall into his lap. That's it. Anything to the effect that Shojo was personally controlling every aspect of Azurite society is entirely of your own construction.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-24, 08:47 PM

Nowhere does Rich say "yes, Shojo was clearly a masterful manipulator who had everybody dancing to exactly his tune." He tricked the nobles into fighting with each other instead of him, and had some handy leverage on the Order almost literally fall into his lap. That's it. Anything to the effect that Shojo was personally controlling every aspect of Azurite society is entirely of your own construction.
Again, no it isn't. The author describes Shojo spending years steadily kneecapping every branch of government so that it was directly dependent on his personal scheming in order to function. Again, I'm not sure how that could possibly work, but yes, canonically, Shojo had a great many people dancing to exactly his tune.

All of this, by the way, is predicated on the false assumption that Shojo needs to be some kind of super-genius to spot the flaws with something analogous to this scenario-

Roy learns that Julia has been kidnapped by the Linear Guild. His reaction is to send Belkar- and only Belkar, his least dependable, most bloodthirsty follower- to Cliffport, on horseback, to negotiate a ransom agreement- he should 'try hard' to avoid bloodshed. But he doesn't actually tell Belkar why Julia was kidnapped, or exactly where to find the kidnappers, or any of the other pieces of relevant information he might share, because... something something paranoia.

Assume that Roy has access to teleport spells, and Belkar is level 16 and actually loyal to Roy. Now, what component of this plan makes even a particle of sense?

I don't need Shojo to be a flawless paragon of logic for this to be a plot hole. I just have to assume he's not a moron.

Keltest

2018-12-24, 08:52 PM

Again, no it isn't. The author describes Shojo spending years steadily kneecapping every branch of government so that it was directly dependent on his personal scheming in order to function. Again, I'm not sure how that could possibly work, but yes, canonically, Shojo had a great many people dancing to exactly his tune.

All of this, by the way, is predicated on the false assumption that Shojo needs to be some kind of super-genius to spot the flaws with something analogous to this scenario-

I don't need Shojo to be a flawless paragon of logic for this to be a plot hole. I just have to assume he's not a moron.

Its a feudal society. It doesn't have a massive amount of government. Its not a terribly difficult thing to do because as lord of the city, Shojo is already an integral part of the government. Youre reading more into his statements than was there.

Dion

2018-12-24, 09:35 PM

I don't need Shojo to be a flawless paragon of logic for this to be a plot hole. I just have to assume he's not a moron.

OK, you totally win. Shojo made bad decisions. So what?

Caerulea

2018-12-24, 09:39 PM

OK, you totally win. Shojo made bad decisions. So what?
Plot hole!!! Rich is totally inconsistent in the way he tells his story! No Cure for the Paladin Blues makes no sense now!

Dion

2018-12-24, 10:01 PM

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-24, 10:58 PM

Plot hole!!! Rich is totally inconsistent in the way he tells his story! No Cure for the Paladin Blues makes no sense now!

Oh no! Next you'll tell me that Rich has a poor habit of making his female characters act in irrational ways.
Well I'm just glad we've graduated from "the hole doesn't exist, Lacuna" to "the hole doesn't matter Lacuna", "we already know about the hole, Lacuna", and "why are you so fixated on the hole, Lacuna". You know, baby steps (http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/12/18/fallacies-of-reversed-moderation/).

Caerulea

2018-12-24, 11:03 PM

Well I'm just glad we've graduated from "the hole doesn't exist, Lacuna" to "the hole doesn't matter Lacuna", "we already know about the hole, Lacuna", and "why are you so fixated on the hole, Lacuna". You know, baby steps (http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/12/18/fallacies-of-reversed-moderation/).
I will still maintain that the hole doesn't exist, Lacuna. I was simply being facetious.

Dion

2018-12-24, 11:32 PM

I will still maintain that the hole doesn't exist, Lacuna. I was simply being facetious.

No, you ser, it’s too late. I’ve already agreed there’s a plot hole. Now Lacuna can link to this thread to officially prove to everyone that the plot hole absolutely and irrefutably exists.

Kish

2018-12-24, 11:45 PM

I will still maintain that the hole doesn't exist, Lacuna. I was simply being facetious.
That anyone actually read what you (or Dion; I'm not quite clear on who he's insulting specifically today) posted as seriously conceding that his imagined plot hole exists is boggling, though inability to understand figurative speech might account for much of his difficulties.

Ruck

2018-12-24, 11:54 PM

That anyone actually read what you (or Dion; I'm not quite clear on who he's insulting specifically today) posted as seriously conceding that his imagined plot hole exists is boggling, though inability to understand figurative speech might account for much of his difficulties.

Re: accounting for difficulties, my money remains on "Lacuna is obsessed with picking holes in the Azure City part of the story-- often without regard to the actual text of the comic, or based in interpretations and assumptions no one else shares-- because he believes that convincing people that the whole thing was just written wrong will somehow validate his feelings that Miko was treated unfairly by the narrative."

Kish

2018-12-25, 12:23 AM

Ruck

2018-12-25, 12:44 AM

The ironic thing here is that I'd agree with "the plot presents Shojo considerably more negatively than the author seems to have meant it to." But that doesn't make it internally inconsistent, nor does it mean it doesn't work for the story, considering Shojo and Miko were both relatively minor characters, only appearing in two volumes (and very briefly at the end of another). Even Lacuna's paraphrase contradicts what he's using it to argue: You cannot end a case that the system is ideal as-is with "...reform the system."

I especially don't get the part where it's a plot hole that Shojo isn't somehow much more intelligent, Machiavellian, and in direct control of everything in Azure City... because if he was, the plot almost certainly never unfolds the way it does.

woweedd

2018-12-25, 03:25 AM

I especially don't get the part where it's a plot hole that Shojo isn't somehow much more intelligent, Machiavellian, and in direct control of everything in Azure City... because if he was, the plot almost certainly never unfolds the way it does.
Yeah, Lacuna doesn't grok the Anthropic Principle, I don't think.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 08:51 AM

Even Lacuna's paraphrase contradicts what he's using it to argue: You cannot end a case that the system is ideal as-is with "...reform the system."

I especially don't get the part where it's a plot hole that Shojo isn't somehow much more intelligent, Machiavellian, and in direct control of everything in Azure City... because if he was, the plot almost certainly never unfolds the way it does.
That is my point Ruck! That is what I have been saying! Shojo's actual decision-making isn't "cunningly secretive", it's just wilfully obtuse to the point of verging on active sabotage. And it reflects nearly as badly on everyone around him (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23589987&viewfull=1#post23589987), including characters who aren't supposed to be paranoid manipulators.

I'm not describing Shojo's Azure City as being 'ideal'. I am characterising the author's description of how he runs the place as something that would require a great deal of foresight and intelligence. Not that super-intelligence on Shojo's part is actually needed for this sequence of events to be obvious bunk.

Is there some reason you feel I would be moved by an argument that is A: based on a fundamental misunderstanding of Shojo's goals and abilities...
No it isn't Keltest. We know that Shojo can assign paladins to missions unrelated to the Gates, because he sends Miko out to deliver a message to the dwarves in the north, and sends Thanh as a diplomat to somewhere. You know this perfectly well, so why are you arguing that Shojo couldn't send his paladins after Xykon? Just... why? Why do you do this?

You keep bringing up the paladins' Oath as if this were an original and pertinent point, when I have addressed this exact topic, for your personal benefit, over and over in prior discussions-

Xykon and Redcloak were not, to their knowledge, at any of the remaining Gates. Their last known location was a Gate which had already been destroyed. So why would their Oath not to approach the remaining Gates obstruct them from trying to track down Xykon and Redcloak from their last known location?

If the paladins actually knew that Xykon and Redcloak were going after the other gates, that would be precisely the circumstance where their Oaths do not restrict them. Getting the evidence needed to ensure his paladins know this was the whole idea.

Are we clear now? Can you acknowledge that the oath was not, in fact, an impediment here? Because I don't want to go around in circles again.

If you feel there is some gap in this argument, at least try addressing this argument instead of slipping back into an old groove. It really is not productive.

Mightymosy

2018-12-25, 09:06 AM

[...]

I just have to assume he's not a moron.

Serious question: Why?
In this comic?
The comic is basically built with the premise that everyone and their mothers acts moronic at least a decent number of times.
It was even in the FAQ (which I don't find anymore: has it been removed from the site?)

If you ask me, you're treating this comic way too seriously, and way to literally.

And I am someone who is on the same page as you with some observations about Miko. Namely, I too felt that her characterisation has changed from her introduction to her end. But for me, it was not that important, it's a parody comic, so who cares?
Conversely, I find it rather puzzling if we are asked to take things literally, in this comic, when things often clearly make no sense if you think them through realistically.
TLDR: If you are taking a parody literally, you're making a mistake, and basically ASK to be disappointed.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 09:22 AM

Serious question: Why?
In this comic?
If you want to argue that a stick-figure parody webcomic that loosely resembles a cross between Peanuts and Berserk is unlikely to exhibit meticulous internal causality, and it's a little strange to expect otherwise... sure, I'll give you that. And if you want to argue that OOTS has other virtues, and that this analysis relies on relatively obscure background details that most readers won't notice, yeah, I'd probably agree.

But in that case, the appropriate reaction from the fanbase would be to say what you have said- "sure Lacuna, yeah, it's kind of a plot hole, but most people won't notice and it's not really what OOTS' main selling-point is." Instead, what I've been seeing are desperate and indignant protestations that OOTS' storyline absolutely does have meticulous internal casuality, and that I am bad and wrong to point out that it doesn't, and that only someone driven by a nefarious agenda could ever think otherwise. Which, to put it mildly, rubs me the wrong way.

hamishspence

2018-12-25, 09:28 AM

Shojo's actions are based on the information given to him by Eugene. And Eugene's priorities may be determined by the possibility that, if Xykon is killed by a non-Greenhilt, (someone who is not Julia or Roy) then he will be trapped on the cloud forever.

Thus, he's not going to recommend to Shojo that he send out a Xykon-exterminating squad. Even if Shojo had the resources to scrape together to send something that has a chance of defeating Xykon.

Instead, he's going to take the course of action that results in Roy being at the forefront of the Xykon-fighting effort.

Eugene's goal is that Roy either destroy Xykon, or, in the process of fighting him, provide enough information, that Julia be able to use it later to make fighting Xykon easier when she tries.

And as Eugene is someone who knows more about Xykon than he does, one would expect Shojo to follow Eugene's recommendations unless there's a very good reason not to.

Mightymosy

2018-12-25, 09:36 AM

Lacuna, it's kind of a (minor) plot hole, but most people won't notice, and it's not really what OotS' main selling-point is.

hamishspence

2018-12-25, 09:46 AM

The Giant on the subject of plot holes:

something is not a "plot hole" if one can reasonably come up with a plausible explanation for it using just the information given in the work itself, even if I don't spell out that explanation in the text. Not every reaction that every character has is going to be explained in explicit detail. It's possible to draw your own conclusions based on what you know about them as people rather than assuming that the author made an error of some kind.

If you can get through the all-caps style, I recommend Film Crit Hulk's (very long) essay on plot-holes and logic (http://badassdigest.com/2012/10/30/film-crit-hulk-smash-hulk-vs.-plot-holes-and-movie-logic/). It's geared more toward movies than comics, but a lot of the same points apply.

(Warning, swearing. But The Giant was the one who provided it as a link. He's entitled to do that.)

woweedd

2018-12-25, 10:01 AM

If you want to argue that a stick-figure parody webcomic that loosely resembles a cross between Peanuts and Berserk is unlikely to exhibit meticulous internal causality, and it's a little strange to expect otherwise... sure, I'll give you that. And if you want to argue that OOTS has other virtues, and that this analysis relies on relatively obscure background details that most readers won't notice, yeah, I'd probably agree.

But in that case, the appropriate reaction from the fanbase would be to say what you have said- "sure Lacuna, yeah, it's kind of a plot hole, but most people won't notice and it's not really what OOTS' main selling-point is." Instead, what I've been seeing are desperate and indignant protestations that OOTS' storyline absolutely does have meticulous internal casuality, and that I am bad and wrong to point out that it doesn't, and that only someone driven by a nefarious agenda could ever think otherwise. Which, to put it mildly, rubs me the wrong way.
MM may be arguing that, we are very much not. I swear, stop acting like everyone already agree with you and just doesn't know it. It makes you sound like an *******.

Mightymosy

2018-12-25, 10:11 AM

The Giant on the subject of plot holes:

(Warning, swearing. But The Giant was the one who provided it as a link. He's entitled to do that.)

I've always wanted to read that, but honestly this ALL CAPS LOCK stuff was too much for my eyes :smallsigh:

hamishspence

2018-12-25, 10:13 AM

It was a bit hard to read - I skimmed it - but what I saw was interesting.

Mightymosy

2018-12-25, 10:14 AM

MM may be arguing that, we are very much not. I swear, stop acting like everyone already agree with you and just doesn't know it. It makes you sound like an *******.

Is MM me? If yes, I don't understand what you mean.

hamishspence

2018-12-25, 10:19 AM

I don't understand what you mean.

You said this:

Lacuna, it's kind of a (minor) plot hole, but most people won't notice, and it's not really what OotS' main selling-point is.

Lacuna responded with this:

If you want to argue that a stick-figure parody webcomic that loosely resembles a cross between Peanuts and Berserk is unlikely to exhibit meticulous internal causality, and it's a little strange to expect otherwise... sure, I'll give you that. And if you want to argue that OOTS has other virtues, and that this analysis relies on relatively obscure background details that most readers won't notice, yeah, I'd probably agree.

But in that case, the appropriate reaction from the fanbase would be to say what you have said- "sure Lacuna, yeah, it's kind of a plot hole, but most people won't notice and it's not really what OOTS' main selling-point is."

Woweedd responded to Lacuna with this:

MM may be arguing that, we are very much not.

Ruck

2018-12-25, 10:28 AM

MM may be arguing that, we are very much not. I swear, stop acting like everyone already agree with you and just doesn't know it. It makes you sound like an *******.

I mean, yesterday Lacuna deliberately changed the words of something in order to change its meaning and argue against it, and when I called him out, told me to "get some self-awareness." I think the ship has sailed on the latter.

Mightymosy

2018-12-25, 10:51 AM

You said this:

Lacuna responded with this:

Woweedd responded to Lacuna with this:

I can't point my finger on what I am supposed to argue and other people are not....

Maybe I am missing the point of the word "argue"?

My first point was that I don't get why this thing is so important for Lacuna
My second point, later on, was that I can agree with him calling it a "plot hole" but not getting the significance of it.

But I am not "arguing" over it being a plothole, if that is what you understood.
In other words, I can see why he considers it one, but I have no stake in this discussion convincing other people of that, simply because for me it was not important.

Ruck

2018-12-25, 11:01 AM

My first point was that I don't get why this thing is so important for Lacuna

Let me try to help:

"Lacuna is obsessed with picking holes in the Azure City part of the story-- often without regard to the actual text of the comic, or based in interpretations and assumptions no one else shares-- because he believes that convincing people that the whole thing was just written wrong will somehow validate his feelings that Miko was treated unfairly by the narrative."

hamishspence

2018-12-25, 11:10 AM

he believes that convincing people that the whole thing was just written wrong will somehow validate his feelings that Miko was treated unfairly by the narrative."

Yup - IMO, The Giant saying that Miko "came out ahead of the curve"

Miko was an antagonist. By the universal scale of How Antagonists Are Treated by the Stories They're In, I think she came out pretty much ahead of the curve.

in a thread with that very title, appears to be the statement Lacuna wants shot down.

Kish

2018-12-25, 11:24 AM

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 11:46 AM

Shojo's actions are based on the information given to him by Eugene. And Eugene's priorities may be determined by the possibility that, if Xykon is killed by a non-Greenhilt, (someone who is not Julia or Roy) then he will be trapped on the cloud forever...
Also covered already-

But we know Eugene doesn't believe this, because he approved of V's plan to destroy Xykon during the soul-splice and favours letting the world at large be destroyed. And you don't get to absolve Shojo of blame for Eugene's plan, because he agreed to every step of it, however nonsensical.

...if the argument is that Roy, personally, has to deal the killing blow to Xykon, how does this not translate to keeping the other five OOTSers in prison while Roy conducts a solo mission? Don't V and Durkon also stand a significant chance of kill-stealing at the end? Or is it more important to pile on as much force as possible in the hopes of, you know, saving the world, and hope for the best oath-wise?

I believe that "Greenhilt involvement" needs to be vastly less peripheral than that - even if a Greenhilt doesn't need to land the final blow - they need to be present and contributing to the final battle.

Fine. Then use a Sending spell to contact Roy and have him rendezvous with the Guard's main strike team. You could also squeeze in Durkon, V, and maybe Haley without too much trouble. But there was no good reason to keep the Guard itself in the dark.
At which you made an argument based on 'storytelling reasons'. Fine. But that doesn't make the story's causal logic- or problems with it- any different.

The Giant on the subject of plot holes:

...something is not a "plot hole" if one can reasonably come up with a plausible explanation for it using just the information given in the work itself...
Yes, but I can't come up with that plausible explanation using the information given in the work itself. It's the information given in the work itself (about all these other paladins and clerics and wizard followers in Shojo's employ) that actually creates a lot of the problems.

hroþila

2018-12-25, 11:56 AM

Why is the fight against Xykon important in that regard? Even if the oath is only fulfilled if a Greenhilt personally deals the killing blow, the only thing that matters is who destroys the phylactery after defeating Xykon.

Yes, but I can't come up with that plausible explanation using the information given in the work itself. It's the information given in the work itself (about all these other paladins and clerics and wizard followers in Shojo's employ) that actually creates a lot of the problems.
I think you're emphasizing the wrong word. It should be "but I can't". Other people have proposed plenty of possible headcanons that deal with the alleged discrepancy.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 12:15 PM

Why is the fight against Xykon important in that regard? Even if the oath is only fulfilled if a Greenhilt personally deals the killing blow, the only thing that matters is who destroys the phylactery after defeating Xykon.
Sure, absolutely. But this makes Roy's direct involvement less critical, not more so.

I think you're emphasizing the wrong word. It should be "but I can't". Other people have proposed plenty of possible headcanons that deal with the alleged discrepancy.
Sure, and they all have the same tenor as my exchanges with Keltest and Hamish. "Lacuna is wrong because X". "Actually, X is false because Y and also Z". "Y is wrong because W, Lacuna". "W is wrong because J, and you still haven't addressed Z." Then they stop talking and/or accuse me of making mountains out of molehills. Then there is a new discussion thread a while later, in which they reiterate "Lacuna is wrong because X".

Ruck

2018-12-25, 12:20 PM

And in this case, the "plot hole" is: Shojo acts like a paranoid old manipulator who is focused on the Gates, instead of taking all the actions Lacuna can think of that someone with his resources whose personality began and ended with an urge to destroy Xykon would.

I differ from Ruck in that I think the core of what's going on with Lacuna is a focus on "optimization," not on Miko.

Rich has said that he makes a point of having every developed character who dies die as a result of their own choices, and that he considers that storytelling 101; Lacuna freaks out whenever anyone he regards as presented as a positive figure, from Shojo to the Twelve Gods, acts like a character at all, instead of a cog in a machine dedicated to crushing Xykon. Obviously OotS is never going to be what Lacuna wants. Equally obviously from my point of view, if it was, it would be a seriously crappy story.

I do, however, concede that I could easily be wrong about Lacuna's motivations, and all his specific "why didn't the story optimize better here" assertions have focused in areas that impact Miko (either because Shojo the Xykoncrusher would have acted differently in ways that would not have brought her into conflict with the Order of the Stick, or because if paladins only had to follow the same moral standards as Neutral Evil clerics she would never have Fallen).

I don't think that's unreasonable, but given that Lacuna's longest threads and arguments and derailments have been specifically about Miko, and that his only other threads and arguments and derailments have been about people directly connected to Miko, and that he has complained more than once about feeling that Miko was treated unfairly, I think it's more about Miko and that optimization is sort of the vehicle he's chosen to get there. (Then again, optimization may well be at the heart of the matter, which... why is anyone who thinks characters should always be optimized reading this story in the first place?)

Keltest

2018-12-25, 12:31 PM

Sure, absolutely. But this makes Roy's direct involvement less critical, not more so.

Sure, and they all have the same tenor as my exchanges with Keltest and Hamish. "Lacuna is wrong because X". "Actually, X is false because Y and also Z". "Y is wrong because W, Lacuna". "W is wrong because J, and you still haven't addressed Z." Then they stop talking and/or accuse me of making mountains out of molehills. Then there is a new discussion thread a while later, in which they reiterate "Lacuna is wrong because X".

Because all of your claims are coming from the same fundamentally wrong place. We don't need to prove that Shojo's actions were 100% the most optimal thing he could have done, only that they made sense from his perspective. At which point you fall back on the idea that he's a super genius who is 100% aware of and in control of anything around him and can do whatever he wants.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 12:36 PM

We don't need to prove that Shojo's actions were 100% the most optimal thing he could have done, only that they made sense from his perspective. At which point you fall back on the idea that he's a super genius who is 100% aware of and in control of anything around him...
Once again, that is objectively not what I said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23593131&viewfull=1#post23593131).

I don't think that's unreasonable, but given that Lacuna's longest threads and arguments and derailments have been specifically about Miko, and that his only other threads and arguments and derailments have been about people directly connected to Miko, and that he has complained more than once about feeling that Miko was treated unfairly...
Yes Ruck, Miko is a topic of particular interest to me, and I would probably not have noticed these points otherwise. But here is the thing- sniping at my motives and presumed agenda from the sidelines without engaging with the substance of my posts- which is what you nearly always do- is by definition an attack on the person and not the argument. There is a word (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) for that.

georgie_leech

2018-12-25, 12:49 PM

Re: simultaneously kneecapping government whilst bringing about peace and prosperity.

I can certainly imagine a Chaotic Good-ish character, when faced with a bureaucracy that relies on a variety of nobles with competing goals and interests that seem to just get in the way of Doing What's Needed, to attempt to subvert the system. In this case, Shojo did it by presenting himself as manipulatable, and played politics to exacerbate disagreements between nobles. While doing so, instead of getting input from the various nobles like a Lawful leader might, he just enacts what he sees as the best policy. This would have the simultaneous effect of cutting down on assassination attempts while just letting him Do What's Needed, which in the short term could very well bring about good results for the city.

In the aftermath though, the system that was put in place to get some cooperation out of fractious noble houses has been completely subverted, with said nobles being more used to (failing at) manipulating the Leader instead of working within the system. So now they're even less likely to work together, and without a convenient supposedly senile patsy to pin the blame on, they just flat out refuse to cooperate.

So I don't really have a problem with the way Shojo was presented. Without going into specific real world examples, you can see the same thing happening all over the place in both history and the modern world.

Keltest

2018-12-25, 12:52 PM

Once again, that is objectively not what I said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23593131&viewfull=1#post23593131).

Yes Ruck, Miko is a topic of particular interest to me, and I would probably not have noticed these points otherwise. But here is the thing- sniping at my motives and presumed agenda from the sidelines without engaging with the substance of my posts- which is what you nearly always do- is by definition an attack on the person and not the argument. There is a word (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) for that.

Once again, you are directing me to an argument I have addressed. Seriously, my post is immediately beneath yours, its not like its difficult to find. I can only assume you chose to ignore it.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 01:17 PM

Once again, you are directing me to an argument I have addressed...
No Keltest. You said that a feudal society would have a simpler government than today, which (A) still doesn't make controlling it easy, and (B) is beside the main point. You didn't say anything about my main point, which is that I don't need Shojo to be a super-genius. This is a false dichotomy of your own invention. All I need is for someone in the room- Miko, Shojo, Eugene, O-Chul, anyone with two brain cells, really- to be aware that, e.g, teleport or wind walk spells exist. Because what is Shojo going to do? Explicitly forbid that Miko use instant transport services? Why would he do that?

hamishspence

2018-12-25, 01:20 PM

For the same reason Miko didn't use teleport to visit the Dwarven Lands - nobody was in any hurry.

Keltest

2018-12-25, 01:21 PM

No Keltest. You said that a feudal society would have a simpler government than today, which is (A) still doesn't make controlling it easy, and (B) is beside the main point. You didn't say anything about my main point, which is that I don't need Shojo to be a super-genius. This is a false dichotomy of your own invention. All I need is for someone in the room- Miko, Shojo, Eugene, O-Chul, anyone with two brain cells, really- to be aware that, e.g, teleport or wind walk spells exist. Because what is Shojo going to do? Explicitly forbid that Miko use instant transport services? Why would he do that?

Because he needs his wizard for something else and he isn't pressed for time on retrieving the Order.

Alternatively, because he wants to get Miko out of the city for a while, as has been indicated is frequently the case.

Alternatively alternatively, because the Wizard cant be involved in specific Sapphire Guard business.

And those are three explanations I came up with in half a second that are all completely consistent with the information in the comic.

The better question is why you think Shojo should be regularly teleporting people anywhere?

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 01:36 PM

For the same reason Miko didn't use teleport to visit the Dwarven Lands - nobody was in any hurry.

Because he needs his wizard for something else and he isn't pressed for time on retrieving the Order.
Keltest, you are ignoring a dozen other points I've raised before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22705732&viewfull=1#post22705732).

...this is like asking a military general to drive alone in a jeep from Paris to Mogadishu to deliver a letter to a local bishop, in an era with airports and telephone lines. If it's urgent enough to warrant her personal attention at all, it's urgent enough to fax the damn thing. The only way he could be wasting more of her time is if she was expected to swim.

Of course Miko's mission is time-sensitive. Leaving aside that Xykon would regenerate soon, the longer it takes her to get to the scene the more likely it is that the trail will be cold and witnesses will have forgotten important details.

If your boss tells you to go meet with an executive on a different continent, and you can't fly, your reaction isn't to start driving overland. Your reaction is "well, how to I get to an airport"? Even if it takes you several days to get there, your reaction is still, "how do I get to an airport?" Even if it means calling up people you don't really know. Even if it means going to another city. Even if it means asking someone with an airplane to meet up with you, your reaction is still, "how do I get to an airport?"

Alternatively, because he wants to get Miko out of the city for a while, as has been indicated is frequently the case...
Right, but doesn't it make both Shojo and the Guard at large look incredibly petty if they'd rather risk universal destruction than suck it up and work with Miko for a few days? Because if you teleport (or use wind walk, which you also said nothing to address), it only has to be a few days. And nobody had to explain the Big Secret Mission to Shojo's wizard in order for Roy to use him for similar purposes (even though Roy winds up blabbing it anyway.) So why is it different for Miko?

.

Keltest

2018-12-25, 01:45 PM

Keltest, you are ignoring a dozen other points I've raised before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard&p=22705732&viewfull=1#post22705732).

Right, but doesn't it make both Shojo and the Guard at large look incredibly petty if they'd rather risk universal destruction than suck it up and work with Miko for a few days? Because if you teleport (or use wind walk, which you also said nothing to address), it only has to be a few days. And nobody had to explain the Big Secret Mission to Shojo's wizard in order for Roy to use him for similar purposes (even though Roy winds up blabbing it anyway.) So why is it different for Miko?

.

And here you go assuming motivations that they don't have again. Yes, its petty. No, they aren't in any particular hurry. Its not a plot hole that they aren't acting in the most efficient manner possible.

Also, stop saying you've raised these points before. I don't care. Im not reading them. If you cant be bothered to explain something without forcing people to navigate the entire 15 page argument in another thread, then I wont be bothered to take that claim seriously. In fact, doing so is specifically called out as one of the things you aren't supposed to do in the Forum Rules.

Tell a poster that they clearly didn't read what you or others wrote upthread. Alternately, any statement that implies that the only way someone could disagree with you is because they don't understand/can't read properly is likewise not allowed.

Ruck

2018-12-25, 01:57 PM

Sure, and they all have the same tenor as my exchanges with Keltest and Hamish. "Lacuna is wrong because X". "Actually, X is false because Y and also Z". "Y is wrong because W, Lacuna". "W is wrong because J, and you still haven't addressed Z." Then they stop talking and/or accuse me of making mountains out of molehills. Then there is a new discussion thread a while later, in which they reiterate "Lacuna is wrong because X".

That's funny, because just yesterday I had an exchange with you that went like this:

Me: I agree with Dr. Zero about A, B, and C.
You: Actually, X, Y, and Z never happened.
Me: I didn't say X, Y, and Z; I said A, B, and C.
You: I'm not walking down this garden path with you, Ruck. Wake me up when you get some self-awareness.

Who needs self-awareness again?

Yes Ruck, Miko is a topic of particular interest to me, and I would probably not have noticed these points otherwise. But here is the thing- sniping at my motives and presumed agenda from the sidelines without engaging with the substance of my posts- which is what you nearly always do- is by definition an attack on the person and not the argument. There is a word (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) for that.

1)You got the above post I described deleted because it was ad hominem. Are you sure you want to go down that road?
2)You can't even get accusations of ad hominem right. No one is saying your arguments are wrong because of your obsession. They're wrong because they're based in faulty logic and false premises. It's just your obsession that leads you to continually reach for bad arguments, invent evidence, and generally act in bad faith.

And I'm not so much interested in refuting your arguments as I am in pointing out what a detriment to the forum your obsession and thread-jacking are.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 01:58 PM

And here you go assuming motivations that they don't have again. Yes, its petty. No, they aren't in any particular hurry. Its not a plot hole that they aren't acting in the most efficient manner possible.
No no no. The problem here isn't a failure to act in the most efficient manner possible. The problem is that pretty much every participant is simultaneously acting in maximally inefficient ways.

I mean, why doesn't Miko herself ask these questions? Does little-miss-smite-be-quick, not exactly known for her laid-back attitude and leisurely contemplation, not think that time is a factor when chasing omnicidal evildoers? Is she being actively petty to herself? Is O-Chul, the shining example of all that is noble and self-sacrificing, who takes grisly torture in stride and has actual diplomacy skills, not willing to journey with Miko on a potentially world-saving mission? Is he that petty?

Also, stop saying you've raised these points before. I don't care. Im not reading them. If you cant be bothered to explain something without forcing people to navigate the entire 15 page argument in another thread...
Keltest, I have already been gracious enough to go dig through these 15-page threads myself and quote the relevant excerpts. It is not my fault that you seem to default to long-discredited arguments whenever a new thread comes up.

And I'm not so much interested in refuting your arguments as I am in pointing out what a detriment to the forum your obsession and thread-jacking are.
And, what a surprise, no actual attempt to address the substance of my arguments in this thread.

Keltest

2018-12-25, 02:07 PM

No no no. The problem here isn't a failure to act in the most efficient manner possible. The problem is that pretty much every participant is simultaneously acting in maximally inefficient ways.

I mean, why doesn't Miko herself ask these questions? Does little-miss-smite-be-quick, not exactly known for her laid-back attitude and leisurely contemplation, not think that time is a factor when chasing omnicidal evildoers? Is she being actively petty to herself? Is O-Chul, the shining example of all that is noble and self-sacrificing, who takes grisly torture in stride and has actual diplomacy skills, not willing to journey with Miko on a potentially world-saving mission? Is he that petty?

Keltest, I have already been gracious enough to go dig through these 15-page threads myself and quote the relevant excerpts. It is not my fault that you seem to default to long-discredited arguments whenever a new thread comes up.

And, what a surprise, no actual attempt to address the substance of my arguments in this thread.

That you insist you have discredited them does not mean they are. Nobody brings up that it isn't efficient because nobody cares. It really is that simple. They aren't bothered by it. Miko does not feel the compulsive need to go teleporting across three continents smiting people the diviners identify for her. Shojo does not feel the need to send her out doing so. O-chul does not feel the need to expedite her return from her mission. Why do you need it to be more complicated than that? This isn't a plot hole, its just characters not behaving in the manner you want them to.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 02:14 PM

That you insist you have discredited them does not mean they are. Nobody brings up that it isn't efficient because nobody cares...
Yes, because a paladin organisation that exists for the express purpose of safeguarding the fabric of reality doesn't care about dealing efficiently with threats to the fabric of reality. On top of all the obvious reasons for why literally anyone alive would be expected to care, such as self-preservation.

Keltest

2018-12-25, 02:21 PM

Yes, because a paladin organisation that exists for the express purpose of safeguarding the fabric of reality doesn't care about dealing efficiently with threats to the fabric of reality. On top of all the obvious reasons for why literally anyone alive would be expected to care, such as self-preservation.

The damage is already done. The point is to bring them for trial for crimes they have allegedly committed, not act to prevent them from doing it further. Besides which, they cant intercept threats to the other gate, and obviously if the Order is going to the Azure City gate next (assuming some bizarre alternate reality where their harm is done from malice rather than ignorance) then theres still no need for haste, because theyre making their own way there, and its just more time for them to prepare.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 02:28 PM

The damage is already done. The point is to bring them for trial for crimes they have allegedly committed, not act to prevent them from doing it further. Besides which, they cant intercept threats to the other gate...
First of all, they absolutely can prevent them from threatening other Gates, by capturing or killing whoever is responsible for threatening the previous Gates. (Which Shojo knows to be Xykon and/or Redcloak, but doesn't share the information.) Secondly, the goal of capturing the Order for trial is still much easier if the paladins just teleport to their last known location, which they could totally have done.

And please don't argue (A) the oaths would get in they way, because they don't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23593661&viewfull=1#post23593661), or (B) that time was not a factor, because it clearly was (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23593927&viewfull=1#post23593927). This was literally one page ago, it's not unreasonable to expect you to acknowledge this.

The Pilgrim

2018-12-25, 02:38 PM

Keltest

2018-12-25, 02:38 PM

First of all, they absolutely can prevent them from threatening other Gates, by capturing or killing whoever is responsible for threatening the previous Gates. (Which Shojo knows to be Xykon and/or Redcloak, but doesn't share the information.) Secondly, the goal of capturing the Order for trial is still much easier if the paladins just teleport to their last known location, which they could totally have done.

And please don't argue (A) the oaths would get in they way, because they don't (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23593661&viewfull=1#post23593661), or (B) that time was not a factor, because it clearly was (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23593927&viewfull=1#post23593927). This was literally one page ago, it's not unreasonable to expect you to acknowledge this.

That argument was wrong then and its wrong now. Because, again, its based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts. The oath explicitly gets in the way. That's why theyre sending the Order out: either to prove Xykon is an imminent threat to Azure City so the paladins can act, or to find out which other gate he is going to so the Order can warn them and act as reinforcements. This is literally the entire point of involving the Order at all.

As for how, presumably she could use the class feature that explicitly gives her a faster means of transport than just by walking.

If I seem frustrated, its because I am. I know for a fact ive said this before, and you've ignored it or handwaved it away.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 02:45 PM

The funny thing about Lacuna Caster's whole "why didn't Shojo assign more resources to this mission", is that the answer is as simple as "because those resources were compromised performing some other mission".
What other mission could possibly be more important? Isn't this expressly what the entire Sapphire Guard exists to do? Isn't the fate of reality itself at stake? This is just a variant on the 'no-one cares' argument, and it's just as nonsensical, leaving aside that Shojo could plausibly have secured the Order's cooperation using a sending spell, which is actually less allocation of resources.

That argument was wrong then and its wrong now. Because, again, its based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts. The oath explicitly gets in the way... ...This is literally the entire point of involving the Order at all.
Yes, and my point is that this rationale makes no sense.

Xykon and Redcloak were not, to their knowledge, at any of the remaining Gates. Their last known location was a Gate which had already been destroyed. So why would their Oath not to approach the remaining Gates obstruct them from trying to track down Xykon and Redcloak from their last known location?

If the paladins actually knew that Xykon and Redcloak were going after the other gates, that would be precisely the circumstance where their Oaths do not restrict them. Getting the evidence needed to ensure his paladins know this was the whole idea.

The Pilgrim

2018-12-25, 02:46 PM

What other mission could possibly be more important?

Protecting his own City and his own Gate?

leaving aside that Shojo could plausibly have secured the Order's cooperation using a sending spell, which is actually less allocation of resources.

I'm pretty sure Shojo did actually make a sending. In particular, he sent Miko. Who, unlike the sending spell, guarantees to drag back to you the persons you need dragged back to you, in the event that they refuse to comply to your request.

Keltest

2018-12-25, 02:49 PM

What other mission could possibly be more important? Isn't this expressly what the entire Sapphire Guard exists to do? Isn't the fate of reality itself at stake? This is just a variant on the 'no-one cares' argument, and it's just as nonsensical, leaving aside that Shojo could plausibly have secured the Order's cooperation using a sending spell, which is actually less allocation of resources.

Yes, and my point is that this rationale makes no sense.

The oath is to not interfere in their defenses. Preemptively hunting down threats to other gates, especially ones on other continents, violates the oath.

This is spelled out in the comic, dude.

Also, while Shojo could have made contact, he would have had no leverage to compel them to help him.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 02:52 PM

Protecting his own City and his own Gate?
Sure. And a good way to do that might be to prevent the world from blowing up or being conquered by an evil Lich sorcerer. Which would be easier if he actually looked for said Lich sorcerer, and possibly had an opportunity to destroy him.

The oath is to not interfere in their defenses. Preemptively hunting down threats to other gates, especially ones on other continents, violates the oath...
Keltest, by this logic, Miko herself could not have been sent to arrest the Order (who were, after all, believed by Miko to be just such a threat). Do you have any idea just how warped this entire line of argument is?

Keltest

2018-12-25, 02:54 PM

Sure. And a good way to do that might be to prevent the world from blowing up or being conquered by an evil Lich sorcerer. Which would be easier if he actually looked for said Lich sorcerer, and possibly had an opportunity to destroy him.

Keltest, by this logic, Miko herself could not have been sent to arrest the Order (who were, after all, believed by Miko to be just such a threat). Do you have any idea just how warped this entire line of argument is?

The Order is not an active threat to the existing gates, and the trial is for actions already done, not ones planned for the future. Miko never says that the Order is being arrested for their active danger to the other gates, nor indeed is any mention of them made until they arrive in Azure City.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 03:02 PM

The Order is not an active threat to the existing gates, and the trial is for actions already done, not ones planned for the future. Miko never says that the Order is being arrested for their active danger to the other gates, nor indeed is any mention of them made until they arrive in Azure City.
No. Miko explicitly states (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html) they are under arrest for endangering the fabric of reality by destroying the Redmountain Gate.

She has no reason to believe beforehand that the Order weren't a threat to other Gates, but even if she did believe this, why couldn't she or Shojo argue that they don't strictly know that Xykon was a threat to the other Gates, thereby allowing the paladins to chase him?

This is my whole point, Keltest. If they know Xykon is a threat to the Gates, they have sufficient reason to waive the Oath. If they don't know this, then the Oath doesn't stop them from chasing him. Either way, the oath is not an obstacle.

The Pilgrim

2018-12-25, 03:10 PM

Sure. And a good way to do that might be to prevent the world from blowing up or being conquered by an evil Lich sorcerer. Which would be easier if he actually looked for said Lich sorcerer, and possibly had an opportunity to destroy him.

Why go out looking for said Lich?

The Lich, apparently, was aiming for the Gates. Shojo was in charge of the defense of one of those gates. Entrenching in and confronting the Lich with the full advantage of Azure City's defenses looks a lot better than sending your forces out in the open alone. Checking the other Gates to raise the alarm and ensure they are properly defended looks a lot better than sending your forces out in the open alone. Having someone check on the Lich so you know were he will strike next and send reinforcements looks a lot better than sending your forces out in the open alone.

Keltest

2018-12-25, 03:12 PM

No. Miko explicitly states (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html) they are under arrest for endangering the fabric of reality by destroying the Redmountain Gate.

She has no reason to believe beforehand that the Order weren't a threat to other Gates, but even if she did believe this, why couldn't she or Shojo argue that they don't strictly know that Xykon was a threat to the other Gates, thereby allowing the paladins to chase him?

This is my whole point, Keltest. If they know Xykon is a threat to the Gates, they have sufficient reason to waive the Oath. If they don't know this, then the Oath doesn't stop them from chasing him. Either way, the oath is not an obstacle.

The Sapphire Guard are not Shojo's personal intercontinental hit squad. Without the gates he has no authority to send them out to other continents or countries, and especially not to assassinate people.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 03:23 PM

Why go out looking for said Lich?
Because he's currently vulnerable while regenerating, and even if you don't catch him with his pants down, you might just be able to scout his position and learn he's... I don't know, in command of a vast hobgoblin army and working with the Crimson Mantle, let's say. If you knew what you'd learn from scouting, you wouldn't need to do the scouting. That's... what scouting's for.

The Lich, apparently, was aiming for the Gates. Shojo was in charge of the defense of one of those gates. Entrenching in and confronting the Lich with the full advantage of Azure City's defenses looks a lot better than sending your forces out in the open alone...
Paladin Blues explicitly states that nobody, including Roy or Shojo, expected that Xykon would actually move on Azure City, so you can't use this to explain Shojo's less-than-proactive stance here. And again, if you can actually show that Xykon was aiming for the Gates, you can waive the paladins' Oath and use them to check on other Gates, send reinforcements, or whatever. Either way, this is all a perfectly reasonable discussion for Shojo to be having with his paladins that doesn't require concealing Xykon's survival at all. Just telling them Xykon was alive doesn't breach the Oath one way or the other.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-25, 03:27 PM

The Sapphire Guard are not Shojo's personal intercontinental hit squad. Without the gates he has no authority to send them out to other continents or countries, and especially not to assassinate people.
Then he would have had no authority to send Miko after the Order. I mean, plenty of people have argued about the lack of a legal framework there, sure, but this didn't stop Shojo (or Miko) either way, Oath notwithstanding. And I don't see hunting down a mass-murdering undead psychopath falling outside of the general remit of a paladin's duties.

Dion

2018-12-25, 03:51 PM

Sure, and they all have the same tenor as my exchanges with Keltest and Hamish. "Lacuna is wrong because X". "Actually, X is false because Y and also Z". "Y is wrong because W, Lacuna". "W is wrong because J, and you still haven't addressed Z."

Can we go back to idea X, and skip parts W, Y, Z, I, J, and K?

Because I’m interested in whatever your actual point is, instead of whatever fifth level derivation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation we’re currently talking about.

Keltest

2018-12-25, 03:52 PM

Then he would have had no authority to send Miko after the Order. I mean, plenty of people have argued about the lack of a legal framework there, sure, but this didn't stop Shojo (or Miko) either way, Oath notwithstanding. And I don't see hunting down a mass-murdering undead psychopath falling outside of the general remit of a paladin's duties.

Going off to fight non-gate-related threats weakens the defenses of the Azure City gate. It is, again, specifically the fact that the Order is involved with the gates without being an active threat that allows Shojo to go after them. Yes, its shaky logic, and its called out as being such, but its good enough to justify sending Miko after them, and that's all it needs to do. The trial is meant to be lost, they don't need an ironclad case against the Order, just one superficially strong enough to justify grabbing them in the first place.

Also, Miko is a samurai in the court of Shojo, which carries with it certain political duties and responsibilities, such as not entering a foreign state and making executive decisions about whether somebody needs killing.

The Pilgrim

2018-12-25, 03:54 PM

Because he's currently vulnerable while regenerating, and even if you don't catch him with his pants down, you might just be able to scout his position and learn he's... I don't know, in command of a vast hobgoblin army and working with the Crimson Mantle, let's say. If you knew what you'd learn from scouting, you wouldn't need to do the scouting. That's... what scouting's for.

A Lich regenerates in 1d10 days after it's destroyed. That means Shojo only had 1 to 10 days to locate him and launch a strike against him while he is vulnerable. Assuming Shojo knew the mechanics behind Lich Regeneration. Which is a pretty obscure information given that Lirian, an epic level elven Druid, knew very little about the mechanics behind the Lich creature template.

For all we know, Shojo didn't know that it takes time for a Lich to regenerate, and may have assumed the Lich regenerated instantly, or in a time span too short for him to gather the resources to locate him and launch a strike. A fair assumption, given that Xykon would have regenerated the next morning if rolled an "1".

Maybe he attempted to scry on Xykon and failed. Maybe because of the Cloister's effect. Or maybe because Xykon resisted the scrying. It requires a Will Save, which the Sorcerer Class gets prime bonus for. Xykon has also +2 Wisdom score modifier from the Lich template. He would also get at least a +5 to the save given that Shojo only had second-hand information about him and had no picture or description of him that would allow to tell Xykon from any other human skeleton, had no possesion that belonged to Xykon, and had no body part of him.

Scouting on him? sure, a good idea. That's part of what he wanted the Order for. Why didn't him use his own paladins? Already tried that on the remainings of Lirian's Gate and failed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html), Shojo didn't considers his paladins to be very good at gathering information.

Paladin Blues explicitly states that nobody, including Roy or Shojo, expected that Xykon would actually move on Azure City, so you can't use this to explain Shojo's less-than-proactive stance here.

Actually, the fact that Shojo didn't expect Xykon to move on Azure City explains very well why he felt in no hurry to expend too many personal resources on dealing with him.

Dion

2018-12-25, 03:58 PM

Then he would have had no authority to send Miko after the Order.

They sent Miko to deliver a letter to the dwarves, too.

I think Rich should write a 750 page manual on “bizarre and unusual rules that govern the use of Azure city and sapphire guard resources, and exactly when Miko is acting as a paladin of the sapphire guard, vs working as an agent of the Azure city government, vs working as a member of Shojo’s personal family.”

And I would not buy that book.

Caerulea

2018-12-25, 04:51 PM

Keltest, I have already been gracious enough to go dig through these 15-page threads myself and quote the relevant excerpts.
Hey, can we address what the person is saying in this thread, rather quote something addressing something similar that somebody else said 14 years ago? Thanks. Quotations are all well and good, but it would take less effort to type out a response that is perfectly applicable to what the person is saying right now

they have sufficient reason to waive the Oath.
Waiving their Oath is not a thing that Paladins do. They were founded on "only the word of a paladin is unbreakable." They don't just decide to forgot about that sacred vow that they made.

Then he would have had no authority to send Miko after the Order. I mean, plenty of people have argued about the lack of a legal framework there, sure, but this didn't stop Shojo (or Miko) either way, Oath notwithstanding. And I don't see hunting down a mass-murdering undead psychopath falling outside of the general remit of a paladin's duties.
The reason that she was sent after the Order was because they already destroyed one of the gates. The Oath not to interfere does not apparently cover scenarios in which the people who have already destroyed a gate need to be punished.

Can we go back to idea X, and skip parts W, Y, Z, I, J, and K?

Because I’m interested in whatever your actual point is, instead of whatever fifth level derivation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation we’re currently talking about.

(Lacuna, if I misunderstood you, correct me.)
As far as I understand it, Lacuna is arguing that the way that the Saphire Guard acted during No Cure for the Paliden Blues and War & XPs was contradictory to their, and in particular Shojo's, characterisation. The crux of their argument is that, after Shojo was informed by his diviners that The Order of the Stick was responsible, and formed the plan with Eugene to hire them to attack Xykon, he should have used whatever magics were at his disposal to send a team of highly skilled paladins to arrest them and drag them back within the hour. That he did not, when any intelligent person would have done so, is declared to be the plot hole in the story.

I, and many others, disagree with Lacuna about the existence of the supposed plot hole. I would first like to establish a likely timeline of events.

The Sapphire guard is alerted (via some mechanism like the one in Girad's pyramid or the diviners) that the Redmountain Gate has been destroyed. They determine via magic that The Order of the Stick is the ones who destroyed the gate (notice in strip 203 Miko attributes the information to the Saphire guards diviners rather than a celestial being. See also, strip 271, panel 2).
Clerics of the Sapphire Guard summon a "celestial being" (Eugene in disguise) to ask advice. He presumably confirms that The Order of the Stick are responsible. He later talks to Shojo alone, and they formulate the plan of having The Order investigate the state of the other gates and alert the defenders to the risks. They would also presumably help stop Xykon and Redcloak's attack, and hopefully kill them. (I personally believe that Eugene focused on sharing information about Xykon, rather than Redcloak, because he really only cares about Julia and whether Xykon is dead.)
As per the laws of the Sapphire Guard, a warrent for the arrest of The Order of the Stick is issued. Shojo then send Miko on a long journey to retrieve them. The paladins are all happy because Miko is out of their hair for the moment.
Miko attacks them, wins, and drags them back to Azure City where they are acquited and Shojo offers them a job.

It is clear that the paladins would like The Order to stand trial, a possible sentence of which is death. Therefore, none of them would be okay with sending them advance warning that they will be arrested, and giving them time to run off or prepare a defense. Thus, sending to Roy would not be politicly feasible. So, why didn't Shojo teleport somebody to arrest The Order? Why didn't he send a group? Why send Miko instead of somebody nicer?

Because that wouldn't make sense to the Sapphire Guard. They don't feel the need to move quickly, because the criminals are not activily threatening the nature of reality anymore, they did in the past. Even if they were, that would fall to the defenders of the other gates, with which the Oath would interfere. Miko was sent because she was the strongest paladin, and the Sapphire Guard wanted to arrest The Order of the Stick, probably by force. Shojo figured that Miko was strong enough, and she was. The rest of the Sapphire Guard also wanted her not in Azure city, and didn't want to go on a long journey with her.

With regards to saving time: maybe the Wizard was busy. Maybe they didn't want to trust a task so closely tied to state secrets with a drunkard. Maybe one of a thousand other reasons. Retrieving The Order was not top priority. You may think it should have been, but Shojo and the paladins clearly did not. Shojo isn't an idiot in this scenerio, he just has different priorities and has to deal with the Sapphire Guard.

With regards to sending out a strike team of paladins to attack Redcloak and Xykon, whose to say that didn't happen? Maybe it did, and was ineffective. Maybe it didn't, because they judged that fortification was a better strategy. Maybe they were waiting to find out more from The Order. Maybe the Oath interfered (I think this is most likely). If I can come up with plenty of reasonable explanations that make sense within the story, the lack of an in story explanation is not a plot hole.
Edit: also what The Pilgrim said.

Kish

2018-12-25, 05:11 PM

The expression was "Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable." "Only the oath of an X is unbreakable" would be Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.

I think, based on War and XPs commentary if nothing else, that there's an excellent chance the paladins would have seen the need for some level of flexibility, had Shojo chosen to deal honestly with them. He didn't. That was a failing in Shojo. I am 99% certain it was entirely intended to be a failing in Shojo.

Lacuna's problem is that he doesn't acknowledge the concept of characters having author-intended failings--at all, as far as I can tell. This leaves him pointing out the non-controversial fact that Shojo did not act as a perfectly rational actor whose sole goal was defeating the main villain of the overall story he's in, and jumping straight from there, in a leap that Miko herself would balk at, to LOOK MASSIVE PLOT HOLE, combined with incomprehension when people acknowledge the first (that Shojo did not act as a perfectly rational actor whose sole goal was defeating the main villain of the overall story he's in) and yet continue to deny that this is a plot hole.

Ruck

2018-12-26, 12:18 AM

The expression was "Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable." "Only the oath of an X is unbreakable" would be Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.

Either way-- if I'm understanding this correctly, the latest "plot hole" is that the order of paladins wouldn't break their oath, and/or that their paranoid, mistrusting leader wouldn't make plans contingent on believing they would do so?

EDIT: Just saw this that I'd forgotten to answer:

Yup - IMO, The Giant saying that Miko "came out ahead of the curve"

Miko was an antagonist. By the universal scale of How Antagonists Are Treated by the Stories They're In, I think she came out pretty much ahead of the curve.

in a thread with that very title, appears to be the statement Lacuna wants shot down.

Probably would be better served, and even be a better use of time, following this part of the post, then:

if you'd have preferred another narrative for the character, go off and write fanfiction or something.

Peelee

2018-12-26, 08:07 AM

LC has written Miko fanfic, IIRC. And yet.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-26, 08:35 AM

Okay, this is clearly gonna take a while.

Hey, can we address what the person is saying in this thread, rather quote something addressing something similar that somebody else said 14 years ago...
No, Caerulea. This is what I, personally have said to these exact same posters somewhere between a few months and a few weeks ago. Literally half a dozen times over in some cases. Which is kind of the problem that I have to deal with.

Waiving their Oath is not a thing that Paladins do. They were founded on "only the word of a paladin is unbreakable." They don't just decide to forgot about that sacred vow that they made...
...Is an excuse I might consider legitimate if Shojo had actually told his paladins about the existence of Xykon (and perhaps Redcloak, who is kinda significant) in the first place, and then had that discussion, and been told point-blank by his paladins that no, they weren't going to budge.

No such discussion took place. What Shojo mentions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) is that his paladins wouldn't consider checking on the other Gates 'without concrete evidence' of a threat to them... such as, I don't know, the testimony of a Being of Pure Law and Good telling them the Crimson Mantle helped to capture Dorukan's Keep. Sounds like a red flag to me, no pun intended.

Frankly, I find it completely incredible that the paladins would be so intransigent as to refuse to waive the Oath under those circumstances, because they've also sworn a bunch of other Oaths- like obeying their lord, punishing the wicked and protecting the innocent- which all make a pretty strong case for chasing after Xykon and preventing universal destruction regardless. And if you caught Xykon before he arrived at another Gate, there's also no problem with the Oath.

The reason that she was sent after the Order was because they already destroyed one of the gates. The Oath not to interfere does not apparently cover scenarios in which the people who have already destroyed a gate need to be punished.
This is not the argument that Keltest was making. He was asserting that the Guard are not Shojo's personal international hit squad, when in fact that is precisely how Miko was effectively deployed. The Oath doesn't, to my knowledge, say anything about the sanctity of secular law, nor would secular law grant any clear protection to Xykon and Redcloak, in the event that they were even in a territory where secular law applied.

(Now, sure, I could imagine an interesting scenario where the paladins find out Xykon/RC are taking refuge in the hobgoblin kingdom they were trying to avoid war with not so long ago, and they could have a debate about how or whether to try expunging them without provoking another war, or whether war was inevitable at that point, whether Xykon has already regenerated enough to be a major threat, etc etc etc. But none of this ever happens, so you can't claim that Shojo was thinking along these lines or had any good and sufficient reason to do so.)

It is clear that the paladins would like The Order to stand trial, a possible sentence of which is death. Therefore, none of them would be okay with sending them advance warning that they will be arrested, and giving them time to run off or prepare a defense...
Again, none of this is a problem if Shojo just has Eugene/the BoPLaG explain who the Order actually are and what they were doing. Which is precisely what he was summoned for in the first place.

Nor does Shojo require his paladins' approval in order to use a Sending spell, given he was able to arrange for the Mark of Justice to be cast by a high-level cleric without their knowledge or consent, and has high-level wizards at his disposal who don't work for the Guard and also go on missions without their knowledge or consent. It is ridiculous to assert that he couldn't arrange for a simple spell to be cast given the resources at his disposal.

With regards to saving time: maybe the Wizard was busy. Maybe they didn't want to trust a task so closely tied to state secrets with a drunkard. Maybe one of a thousand other reasons. Retrieving The Order was not top priority. You may think it should have been...
Oh, I don't think retrieving the Order should have been top priority at all. I think finding (and ideally destroying) Xykon and Redcloak was the most important thing. All of this was covered before, Caerulea. In this thread.

Well, speaking personally I would have focused on locating Xykon ASAP with every resource at my disposal and sorted out the legal niceties later. But even if you wave away the wizard, you also need to wave away the High Priest of the Twelve, and any other amenable clerics in the city who could cast Wind Walk. (Besides, with Sending spells, you can always contact the wizard and call him back, even on other planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm).)

Right, but doesn't it make both Shojo and the Guard at large look incredibly petty if they'd rather risk universal destruction than suck it up and work with Miko for a few days? Because if you teleport (or use wind walk, which you also said nothing to address), it only has to be a few days. And nobody had to explain the Big Secret Mission to Shojo's wizard in order for Roy to use him for similar purposes (even though Roy winds up blabbing it anyway.) So why is it different for Miko?

And this point was covered in another thread-

With regards to sending out a strike team of paladins to attack Redcloak and Xykon, whose to say that didn't happen?
Because there's no end to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571070-Why-are-Miko-s-parents-dead/page21&highlight=rationally). You can't go around inventing huge chunks of the narrative and then pretend that the actual absence of this connective tissue is a virtue of the story.

I'm not going to assume that Shojo dispatched another team after Xykon. Aside from never being mentioned, that's the mission you send Miko on, while Hinjo or O-Chul go after the Order.

Keltest

2018-12-26, 09:16 AM

Okay, this is clearly gonna take a while.

No, Caerulea. This is what I, personally have said to these exact same posters somewhere between a few months and a few weeks ago. Literally half a dozen times over in some cases. Which is kind of the problem that I have to deal with.

...Is an excuse I might consider legitimate if Shojo had actually told his paladins about the existence of Xykon (and perhaps Redcloak, who is kinda significant) in the first place, and then had that discussion, and been told point-blank by his paladins that no, they weren't going to budge.

No such discussion took place. What Shojo mentions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) is that his paladins wouldn't consider checking on the other Gates 'without concrete evidence' of a threat to them... such as, I don't know, the testimony of a Being of Pure Law and Good telling them the Crimson Mantle helped to capture Dorukan's Keep. Sounds like a red flag to me, no pun intended.

Frankly, I find it completely incredible that the paladins would be so intransigent as to refuse to waive the Oath under those circumstances, because they've also sworn a bunch of other Oaths- like obeying their lord, punishing the wicked and protecting the innocent- which all make a pretty strong case for chasing after Xykon and preventing universal destruction regardless. And if you caught Xykon before he arrived at another Gate, there's also no problem with the Oath.

This is not the argument that Keltest was making. He was asserting that the Guard are not Shojo's personal international hit squad, when in fact that is precisely how Miko was effectively deployed. The Oath doesn't, to my knowledge, say anything about the sanctity of secular law, nor would secular law grant any clear protection to Xykon and Redcloak, in the event that they were even in a territory where secular law applied.

(Now, sure, I could imagine an interesting scenario where the paladins find out Xykon/RC are taking refuge in the hobgoblin kingdom they were trying to avoid war with not so long ago, and they could have a debate about how or whether to try expunging them without provoking another war, or whether war was inevitable at that point, whether Xykon has already regenerated enough to be a major threat, etc etc etc. But none of this ever happens, so you can't claim that Shojo was thinking along these lines or had any good and sufficient reason to do so.)

Again, none of this is a problem if Shojo just has Eugene/the BoPLaG explain who the Order actually are and what they were doing. Which is precisely what he was summoned for in the first place.

Nor does Shojo require his paladins' approval in order to use a Sending spell, given he was able to arrange for the Mark of Justice to be cast by a high-level cleric without their knowledge or consent, and has high-level wizards at his disposal who don't work for the Guard and also go on missions without their knowledge or consent. It is ridiculous to assert that he couldn't arrange for a simple spell to be cast given the resources at his disposal.

Oh, I don't think retrieving the Order should have been top priority at all. I think finding (and ideally destroying) Xykon and Redcloak was the most important thing. All of this was covered before, Caerulea. In this thread.

And this point was covered in another thread-

Because there's no end to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571070-Why-are-Miko-s-parents-dead/page21&highlight=rationally). You can't go around inventing huge chunks of the narrative and then pretend that the actual absence of this connective tissue is a virtue of the story.

Lacuna, if you keep repeating yourself, its because you keep going back to the same flawed arguments.

For example: neither fetching the Order nor fighting Xykon is Shojo's highest priority. Governing and protecting the city, the gate and his lands are. He cannot and will not just drop everything to solve the plot. Your priorities as a reader are not his priorities, and fundamentally, you refuse to look at things from any other direction except "what would solve the plot quickest."

Shojo is not interested in solving the plot. He is interested in pushing his own agendas, of which "deal with Xykon" on a general level is not part of it. He only cares about Xykon because he has decided he is a threat to the gates, and he only cares to involve the order because they can be used to untie his hands to allow him to act more directly, with his preferred methods.

You say you don't believe that they don't care? Well, get over it. Its pretty obviously the case because its what is actually in the story. Shojo does not need to hold your priorities and it is not a plot hole that he cares about different things than you do.

And regarding quoting posts from earlier threads, besides generally being discourteous, if you expect us to go back and read them, then you should follow suit and skip to the part where we responded to those points already. Im definitely not going to go back and read arguments you made in threads that have been closed if you cant be bothered to do so.

Mike Havran

2018-12-26, 09:36 AM

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-26, 10:46 AM

Can we go back to idea X, and skip parts W, Y, Z, I, J, and K?

Because I’m interested in whatever your actual point is, instead of whatever fifth level derivation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation of a refutation we’re currently talking about.
In essence, there is virtually no part of Shojo's decision to send Miko to kill/capture the Order, or the particular way that he hires them, that actually withstands scrutiny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard/page3&p=22705732#post22705732), given all the factors established about resources available to the Guard, the ostensible motives of everyone involved, and how magic works in the setting from later on in the same story.

I mean, if you just read the story up to strip #250 or so it's fine, generally speaking, because this is a world where teleport or commune or sending spells are just never referred to, and we don't have this parade of other paladins who are Better And Cooler And More Suited For Her Job Than Miko (tm). But the later story does have those things, and it just makes everything about Miko's introduction look increasingly crazy.

A Lich regenerates in 1d10 days after it's destroyed. That means Shojo only had 1 to 10 days to locate him and launch a strike against him while he is vulnerable. Assuming Shojo knew the mechanics behind Lich Regeneration...
Sure, it's not a strategy that's guaranteed to work (though if Shojo doesn't know the mechanics, he might as easily imagine that Xykon could take months to recover.) But that's not my point, which is that they might never have a better opportunity (and Eugene has been very bullish about using the most gung-ho imaginable, no-kill-like-overkill methods for taking on Xykon.)

Maybe he attempted to scry on Xykon and failed. Maybe because of the Cloister's effect... ...had no picture or description of him that would allow to tell Xykon from any other human skeleton, had no possesion that belonged to Xykon, and had no body part of him.
Sure, those are all possibilities. And one might imagine an interesting scenario where Sangwaan, for example, talks to Roy or Durkon about using Xykon's crown and their first-hand familiarity with the lich to boost their scrying chances. Or where they capture Nale and compel him to Send to Xykon under false pretences to get some information on his whereabouts. Or where they bring Hound Archons/Inevitables to do short-range scouting & scrying and just get lucky. Or where they dig up some goblin survivors from the rubble of the keep or it's vicinity who happen to know that Xykon had an escape tunnel. (Or where, for example, a sufficiently suspicious and overzealous paladin might just leap to the conclusion that of course the nearby hobgoblin kingdom must have been colluding with the Crimson Mantle all along, and that it must be her destiny to avert this threat! I know, pssh, that's crazy talk.) Given all the other witnesses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html) they were evidently able to dig up, why should this be so hard?

The point is that none of these options are ever pursued. No attempt to track down Xykon and Redcloak this way is ever made, because Shojo couldn't be bothered his ass to tell either the paladins or the Order that they need to get on this ASAP.

Scouting on him? sure, a good idea. That's part of what he wanted the Order for...
Which would be logical, if (A) the Order didn't actually have even worse scouting skills than the paladins, (B) he actually got them on Xykon's trail immediately, and (C) this were mutually exclusive with working with the Guard. But they do, and he doesn't, and it isn't. What Shojo actually does is waste weeks of everyone's valuable time dragging the Order back for trial in the most needlessly hazardous and roundabout manner he could contrive short of outright ordering Miko to just kill them.

Keltest

2018-12-26, 11:17 AM

Lacuna, for the umpteenth time, Shojo specifically calls out why he wont involve the paladins. This is explicitly stated in the comic. He doesn't believe that they would go after Xykon (or whatever force is destroying the gates) when he moves on the next gate without proof that the threat is overwhelming or some other extremely compelling reason to break their oath. Now maybe the paladins are more reasonable than that, but it doesn't matter, because Shojo doesn't think they are.

And please don't claim you've already addressed this, because the only things you've said to counter that are that he should have sent them anyway, or that you don't believe the oath would stop them. Neither of those are legitimate counters to the point that Shojo doesn't think he can involve the paladins.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-26, 11:18 AM

Why is there even an argument about Shojo acting against Xykon? Shojo knew nothing about him, he even admits as much in strip 290. He certainly doesn't have a proof that Xykon has an interest in the Gates. Heck, even Roy deciding to go to Oracle to carry out Shojo's assignment on the basis that the lich has some plan with other gates is an educated guess at best.
Shojo knows nothing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) about 'this lich of yours'... up to the point where he meets with Eugene, who told him 'everything I needed to know about you and your party'. It would be fairly stunning if he never mentioned Xykon at any point during those conversations.

There might well be questions about whether Shojo or anyone else knows for sure whether Xykon has plans on the other gates, but that hardly matters to Eugene, who just wants him dead ASAP (possibly with Roy's involvement.) The mere fact that Xykon is a mass murderer who had his goblin minions raiding human territories is already more than enough reason to justify an investigation- and if either the paladins or the Order get a chance to kill him in the process, so much the better.

EDIT:

Lacuna, for the umpteenth time, Shojo specifically calls out why he wont involve the paladins. This is explicitly stated in the comic...
Yes, and for the umpteenth time, I am saying this rationale makes no sense. I'm afraid I don't know what else to tell you, Keltest, I've already covered all your objections in copious and redundant detail.

Peelee

2018-12-26, 11:21 AM

No, Caerulea. This is what I, personally have said to these exact same posters somewhere between a few months and a few weeks ago. Literally half a dozen times over in some cases. Which is kind of the problem that I have to deal with.

If your answers weren't accepted then, what makes you think they'll be accepted now?

Dion

2018-12-26, 11:21 AM

In essence, there is virtually no part of Shojo's decision to send Miko to kill/capture the Order, or the particular way that he hires them, that actually withstands scrutiny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545494-Questions-about-the-early-strip-and-Sapphire-Guard/page3&p=22705732#post22705732), given all the factors established about resources available to the Guard, the ostensible motives of everyone involved, and how magic works in the setting from later on in the same story.

Ok, I totally agree with you. Every story has logical inconsistencies. This story is no exception.

You provided the solution yourself: The problem you have is that when you read strip 250, with the information available to you in strip 250, strip 250 made sense. Later, after you got to strip 500 or so, looking back and strip 250 doesn’t make as much sense.

The solution to that dilemma is to not look back at strip 250 in the context of strip 500.

I can’t say that’s the best solution, but I never figured out how Indiana Jones rode a submarine to the secret base, either. So I’m not a good resource for solutions.

Keltest

2018-12-26, 11:22 AM

Yes, and for the umpteenth time, I am saying this rationale makes no sense. I'm afraid I don't know what else to tell you, Keltest, I've already covered all your objections in copious and redundant detail.

You cant make sense of them. That doesn't mean they make no sense. The logic is there, you just don't want to follow it for some reason.

Caerulea

2018-12-26, 11:29 AM

Lacuna, are you arguing that Shojo shouldn't have been a paranoid liar whose lies and deceptions caused Azure city to be destroyed. That because he took actions in character which were not very smart, there is a plot hole? I feel like you are arguing, Shojo should have been smarter and more trusting, and had he been so, the plot would have unfolded very differently. I agree with the latter part, not the former.

Edited to address:

Yes, and for the umpteenth time, I am saying this rationale makes no sense. I'm afraid I don't know what else to tell you, Keltest, I've already covered all your objections in copious and redundant detail.
Shojo doesn't want to involve the paladins because then he would have to do everything above board and following their codes. He does not want to do this, except if it is absolutely necessary which from his viewpoint it is not, so he gets The Order to serve as his personal strike/investigative team against Xykon. Which part of this rational does not make sense?

I don’t understand why you need to convince them?
I am trying to make the world less wrong.

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-26, 11:31 AM

Ok, I totally agree with you. Every story has logical inconsistencies. This story is no exception.

You provided the solution yourself: The problem you have is that when you read strip 250, with the information available to you in strip 250, strip 250 made sense. Later, after you got to strip 500 or so, looking back and strip 250 doesn’t make as much sense.

The solution to that dilemma is to not look back at strip 250 in the context of strip 500.

I can’t say that’s the best solution, but I never figured out how Indiana Jones rode a submarine to the secret base, either. So I’m not a good resource for solutions.
Okay, great, fantastic! We are in agreement that there is a logical inconsistency, and perhaps just differ in terms of how prominent that might be or to what extent it disrupts our enjoyment. Thank you for your input, cool beans, totally valid point of view.

...Wow, this is actually rather refreshing. Now, if a few other posters could perhaps stop telling me that everything absolutely is logically consistent, we won't have to drag this out any longer.

Dion

2018-12-26, 11:36 AM

...Wow, this is actually rather refreshing. Now, if a few other posters could perhaps stop telling me that everything absolutely is logically consistent, we won't have to drag this out any longer.

I don’t understand why you need to convince them?

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-26, 11:50 AM

I don’t understand why you need to convince them?
If someone tried to tell me there is no pen on the table, when I can plainly see there is a pen on the table, then I would be deeply interested in getting to the bottom of why they insisted the pen was not there, regardless of how important the pen itself is. The pen is irrelevant. But the denial of the pen is a major problem.

(For what it's worth, yes, the Eagles are a stupid plot hole, and most Tolkien fans are aware of this. This doesn't mean that Tolkien doesn't have plenty of other virtues that matter a great deal more to most readers, and most Tolkien fans will focus on that.)

hroþila

2018-12-26, 11:53 AM

(For what it's worth, yes, the Eagles are a stupid plot hole, and most Tolkien fans are aware of this. This doesn't mean that Tolkien doesn't have plenty of other virtues that matter a great deal more to most readers, and most Tolkien fans will focus on that.)
*does some warm-up exercises*
*clears throat*
*approaches mic*

The eagles are no plot hole.

*prepares to die on this hill*

Ruck

2018-12-26, 11:53 AM

I don’t understand why you need to convince them?

I actually don't find it strange at all that a Miko obsessive has spent hours and hours and pages and pages trying to enforce his viewpoint onto others by any means necessary, committed to his own set of facts and logic divorced from reality, and with complete disregard for others while being convinced of his own self-righteousness.

How did Gandalf not know that Bilbo had the one ring right away? He should have had the eagles drop the ring into Mt Doom halfway through The Hobbit.

Stupid plot hole.

Batman not killing the Joker at the end of The Dark Knight because of his code is not what I would have done. Therefore, it is a plot hole.

hamishspence

2018-12-26, 11:54 AM

(For what it's worth, yes, the Eagles are a stupid plot hole, and most Tolkien fans are aware of this. This doesn't mean that Tolkien doesn't have plenty of other virtues that matter a great deal more to most readers, and most Tolkien fans will focus on that.)

And other Tolkien fans will point out reasons that make some sense, in universe, for the Eagles not to solve everything:

https://notallwhowanderarelost268.wordpress.com/2016/09/04/the-eagles-are-coming-not-the-plot-hole-youre-looking-for/

Peelee

2018-12-26, 11:57 AM

*does some warm-up exercises*
*clears throat*
*approaches mic*

The eagles are no plot hole.

*prepares to die on this hill*

AND MY AXE! I ain't gonna wait for others to start the chorus, I'ma pull out my favorite line regardless.

Keltest

2018-12-26, 11:58 AM

AND MY AXE! I ain't gonna wait for others to start the chorus, I'ma pull out my favorite line regardless.

I'll add my shield to this wall.

Dion

2018-12-26, 12:03 PM

I would be deeply interested in getting to the bottom of why...

Perhaps you’ll forgive me if I observe that you appear less interested in figuring out why they believe something, and more interested in changing their mind...

hroþila

2018-12-26, 12:05 PM

And other Tolkien fans will point out reasons that make some sense, in universe, for the Eagles not to solve everything:

https://notallwhowanderarelost268.wordpress.com/2016/09/04/the-eagles-are-coming-not-the-plot-hole-youre-looking-for/
One refutation that I rarely see but which is much more straightforward is given in The Hobbit:

Bilbo: yo eagle fly us to erebor
Eagle: are u nuts i'm not going anywhere
Bilbo: why not
Eagle: the men on the other side of this river have like bows and stuff

Mount Doom didn't have a conveniently open crater for them to toss the ring into. They'd have to land, but not before having alerted the Nazgûl and other guards, probably armed with bows. The mythological analysis of the eagles totally works as an explanation, but this plain fact should be enough because people crying "Plot hole!" are not likely to be interested in the more metaphysical and religious aspects of the legendarium.

Now, I do think the eagles were overused by Tolkien, but that's different from being a plot hole.

Caerulea

2018-12-26, 12:08 PM

I'll add my shield to this wall.
And my bow. It is interesting that now we have the potential to get in an argument about TWO non-existent plot holes. Oh well.

Keltest

2018-12-26, 12:09 PM

One refutation that I rarely see but which is much more straightforward is given in The Hobbit:

Bilbo: yo eagle fly us to erebor
Eagle: are u nuts i'm not going anywhere
Bilbo: why not
Eagle: the men on the other side of this river have like bows and stuff

Mount Doom didn't have a conveniently open crater for them to toss the ring into. They'd have to land, but not before having alerted the Nazgûl and other guards, probably armed with bows. The mythological analysis of the eagles totally works as an explanation, but this plain fact should be enough because people crying "Plot hole!" are not likely to be interested in the more metaphysical and religious aspects of the legendarium.

Now, I do think the eagles were overused by Tolkien, but that's different from being a plot hole.

That tends to be my go-to explanation, at least. Eagles are fast, but they aren't exactly subtle. Even the hobbits, notable for their stealth, weren't able to get through Mordor while completely avoiding orcs and Sauron's gaze, Aragorn was acting as a distraction and pulled a lot of the armies out of Mordor, or at least away from Mount Doom.

Dion

2018-12-26, 12:10 PM

Also, the eagles kind of seemed liike *****.

Gandalf: take this ring and throw it in the mountain
Eagle: [tales ring to nest] shiny!

Lacuna Caster

2018-12-26, 12:24 PM

Lacuna, are you arguing that Shojo shouldn't have been a paranoid liar whose lies and deceptions caused Azure city to be destroyed. That because he took actions in character which were not very smart, there is a plot hole?
Because Shojo is supposed to be more than just a paranoid liar. He's also supposed to be an intelligent governor and chaotic good in alignment.

To be fair, 'Shojo is genuinely senile' was one of my top picks for an explanation a few months back, but the problem is that this isn't just Shojo having a brain-fart. He not only has to make some stunningly poor decisions himself, he has to ignore or forbid better suggestions from everyone around him.

I mean, seriously, does Miko labour under the impression that teleport spells just don't exist? Does O-Chul, the speak-truth-to-power guy with a military background, not ask any perfectly reasonable questions about the tactical wisdom of only sending one paladin to cope with six dangerous perpetrators they know nothing about? Does Sangwaan, whose literal job description is seeing the future, not foresee any hazardous side-effects of sending their most smite-happy paladin on an ostensibly [non-lethal] mission? This reflects almost as badly on the Guard as a whole as it does on Shojo himself, not to mention Eugene, who presumably knows what a Sending spell is.

...why doesn't Miko herself ask these questions? Does little-miss-smite-be-quick, not exactly known for her laid-back attitude and leisurely contemplation, not think that time is a factor when chasing omnicidal evildoers? Is she being actively petty to herself? Is O-Chul, the shining example of all that is noble and self-sacrificing, who takes grisly torture in stride and has actual diplomacy skills, not willing to journey with Miko on a potentially world-saving mission? Is he that petty?

Perhaps you’ll forgive me if I observe that you appear less interested in figuring out why they believe something, and more interested in changing their mind...
I don't know, Dion. I suppose we'll have to see what turns up.

Keltest

2018-12-26, 12:43 PM

Caerulea

2018-12-26, 12:51 PM

zimmerwald1915

2018-12-26, 12:52 PM

He's also supposed to be an intelligent governor
Says who? "Schemer" does not mean "intelligent."

woweedd

2018-12-26, 12:55 PM

If someone tried to tell me there is no pen on the table, when I can plainly see there is a pen on the table, then I would be deeply interested in getting to the bottom of why they insisted the pen was not there, regardless of how important the pen itself is. The pen is irrelevant. But the denial of the pen is a major problem.

(For what it's worth, yes, the Eagles are a stupid plot hole, and most Tolkien fans are aware of this. This doesn't mean that Tolkien doesn't have plenty of other virtues that matter a great deal more to most readers, and most Tolkien fans will focus on that.)
To go back to my mention of the Anthropic Principle: There's a reason the eagles don't help. If they did, there'd be no journey for us to read. In the words of Alfred Hitchcock, when asked why people in horror movies don't go to the police: "They don't go to the police because it's dull." Rch has also appealed to this reasoning himself. In the FAq, he notes:
"Q: In Strip #X, why didn't character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.
A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see?"
Which neatly answers your point about Shojo. If he had killed Xykon in Book 2, there would have been no story for us to read. The Anthropic Principles of Storytelling states "For any given story, there exist basic elements that, no matter how improbable or impossible their occurrence, are required for the story itself to happen. Or there would be no story. In other words, there is no "resolution" without "conflict"." and this is one such example." Like in Harry Potter, if there's an authority figure who is stronger then the protagonists, and could potentially resolve the plot in such a way that they would make the rest of the story moot, they must, somehow, be prevented from doing so, where by incompetence, like in Shojo's case, or by any other factor, such as lack of knowledge, lack of time, or so on. Rigorous consistency, ultimately, doesn't matter as much as a good story. We don't engage with stories on a logical level. That whole Cinema Sins style of criticism not only misses the point, it works, as their videos show, on good na dba dmovies alike, something which shows quite well that, whatever indefinable quality makes a story good, it has little to do with whatever they're measuring. It especially doesn't make sense for a story like this, because the Anthropic Principle is an actual thing in-universe. Tarquin's whole scheme is an exploitation of it. After all, there are certain conditions needed for a story about a lone hero overthrowing an empire to exist, and one of those conditions is that an evil empire exists, has existed for a while, and will continue to exist if no heroes get involved. And all that requires someone to rule the empire, and live like a god for decade just to get killed at the end, so why not him?

Kish

2018-12-26, 12:59 PM

I wonder if Lacuna would even slow down, if the next strip featured a glimpse of Shojo's character sheet, with the words "True Neutral" and "Intelligence: 10" showing.

Peelee

2018-12-26, 01:04 PM

I wonder if Lacuna would even slow down, if the next strip featured a glimpse of Shojo's character sheet, with the words "True Neutral" and "Intelligence: 10" showing.

Well those would obviously be typos, which would just add to the author's faults.

Mike Havran

2018-12-26, 01:08 PM

Shojo knows nothing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) about 'this lich of yours'... up to the point where he meets with Eugene, who told him 'everything I needed to know about you and your party'. It would be fairly stunning if he never mentioned Xykon at any point during those conversations.

There might well be questions about whether Shojo or anyone else knows for sure whether Xykon has plans on the other gates, but that hardly matters to Eugene, who just wants him dead ASAP (possibly with Roy's involvement.) The mere fact that Xykon is a mass murderer who had his goblin minions raiding human territories is already more than enough reason to justify an investigation- and if either the paladins or the Order get a chance to kill him in the process, so much the better.You said it yourself - Eugene was talking about Roy and the Order. What could he tell about Xykon besides "he was an evil guy"? Shojo can't afford to hunt a random bad guy without evidence he is involved in the Gate business, and Eugene had no such proof because he knew nothing about Gates himself.

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-12-26, 01:36 PM

The eagles are no plot hole.

On top of all the other argument already trotted out, they're the cavalry. Arriving at the last possible minute to provide assistance that only they can provide is their job description in any tale that involves them.

Grey Wolf

Dion

2018-12-26, 02:00 PM

I don't know, Dion. I suppose we'll have to see what turns up.

I don’t understand this answer. Are you interested in learning from other people why they enjoy the story in the way they enjoy it, so you can understand and perhaps even share that enjoyment?

Or are you interested in convincing people that they’re enjoying he story in the wrong way?

Ruck

2018-12-26, 02:05 PM

The Pilgrim

2018-12-26, 02:17 PM

Sure, it's not a strategy that's guaranteed to work (though if Shojo doesn't know the mechanics, he might as easily imagine that Xykon could take months to recover.) But that's not my point, which is that they might never have a better opportunity (and Eugene has been very bullish about using the most gung-ho imaginable, no-kill-like-overkill methods for taking on Xykon.)

The fact that the best opportunity to kill Xykon was while he was regenerating, doesn't means that option was on the table for Shojo.

Eugene did mention at SoD that he spent ten years looking for Xykon and, despite being an award-winning wizard, was unable to locate him. So, Xykon seems to have rather good anti-scrying defenses, even without the Cloister (which was unavailable to him during SoD).

Sure, those are all possibilities. And one might imagine an interesting scenario where Sangwaan, for example, talks to Roy or Durkon about using Xykon's crown and their first-hand familiarity with the lich to boost their scrying chances.

Nice. Unfortunately, Shojo only had Roy and his crown available after Miko drag them to Azure City. By that time, Xykon had already regenerated.

Or where they capture Nale and compel him to Send to Xykon under false pretences to get some information on his whereabouts.

Using Nale to gather info about Xykon was the reason why Shojo accepted to let the Order travel to Cliffport.

Or where they bring Hound Archons/Inevitables to do short-range scouting & scrying and just get lucky.

I'm afraid the fees such creatures would require for their services would make them much less cost-effectives than sending anyone else, like the Order, to do the job.

Or where they dig up some goblin survivors from the rubble of the keep or it's vicinity who happen to know that Xykon had an escape tunnel.

It's Word of Author that Redcloak was the sole goblin who survived the events in DCF.

given all the other witnesses they were evidently able to dig up, why should this be so hard?

Why do Shojo need them? He already has Eugene available, who is someone who knows Xykon first-hand. That's why I gave Xykon a +5 save against the Scrying (second-hand info) instead of a +10 (no info at all). Of course, Eugene could have performed the scrying giving Xykon a +0 to save (as he has meet the subject), but I have discarded him by default given that we already know that Eugene was always unable to locate Xykon while alive, and dead characters don't improve. So it's a proven fact that Eugene's scrying is not powerful enough to do the job.

(Or where, for example, a sufficiently suspicious and overzealous paladin might just leap to the conclusion that of course the nearby hobgoblin kingdom must have been colluding with the Crimson Mantle all along, and that it must be her destiny to avert this threat! I know, pssh, that's crazy talk.)

You mean, the overzealous paladin who killed years ago the last person to leap to the conclusion that said nearby hobgoblin kingdom was colluding with the Crimson Mantle?

The point is that none of these options are ever pursued. No attempt to track down Xykon and Redcloak this way is ever made, because Shojo couldn't be bothered his ass to tell either the paladins or the Order that they need to get on this ASAP.

So, you mean that The Giant must waste a big number of valuable comic panels to discredit any and every theory you come with, most of which make very little sense to begin with or/and are already debunked by information shown in-comic?

Which would be logical, if (A) the Order didn't actually have even worse scouting skills than the paladins

Do they? The Order is led by the sole individual who has ever been able to track down Xykon.

(B) he actually got them on Xykon's trail immediately

No, he got the Order departing to check on the Gates, not to go on Xykon's trail. The Order went to the Oracle to ask about what Gate would be attacked next, not about Xykon's actual whereabouts.

(C) this were mutually exclusive with working with the Guard.

I'd say it actually is, given that the only member of the Guard high level enough to be of use for the Order against Xykon was rather bad at team-working and had already proven uncapable of working with the Order.

What Shojo actually does is waste weeks of everyone's valuable time dragging the Order back for trial in the most needlessly hazardous and roundabout manner he could contrive short of outright ordering Miko to just kill them.

That's your opinion. Unfortunately, up to this point all your proposed alternatives have been found to be more hazardous, costly, and/or with less chance of success, than the one Shojo came with.

Dion

2018-12-26, 02:21 PM

Here's an alternate metaphor:

I kind of like the pen metaphor better, because there’s no insanity implied. Suppose one person sees something they interpret one way, for example “I think I see a pen on that table”, and someone else says “no, it’s a trick of the light. It’s just a stick.”

Then, like Lacuna says, the pen makes absolutely little difference. Both people are mking observations, and drawing conclusions from those observations. It’s inreresting and fun to see how those observations are different, and how the conclusions are different.

Now, if one person tries to insist that their conclusions are right, it can get very tiresome.

Hopefully Lacuna has the self awareness necessary to not be suffering under the mistaken delusion that his conclusions are correct.

Kish

2018-12-26, 02:26 PM

Mistaken delusions are much worse than accurate delusions.

Ruck

2018-12-26, 02:37 PM

I don’t understand this answer. Are you interested in learning from other people why they enjoy the story in the way they enjoy it, so you can understand and perhaps even share that enjoyment?

Or are you interested in convincing people that they’re enjoying he story in the wrong way?

Frankly I think the quote is the sort of snide thing someone attempting to sound clever would say.

I kind of like the pen metaphor better, because there’s no insanity implied. Suppose one person sees something they interpret one way, for example “I think I see a pen on that table”, and someone else says “no, it’s a trick of the light. It’s just a stick.”

Then, like Lacuna says, the pen makes absolutely little difference. Both people are mking observations, and drawing conclusions from those observations. It’s inreresting and fun to see how those observations are different, and how the conclusions are different.

Now, if one person tries to insist that their conclusions are right, it can get very tiresome.

Hopefully Lacuna has the self awareness necessary to not be suffering under the mistaken delusion that his conclusions are correct.

I was trying to think of a more apt metaphor, but in this case it's hard to, because as Lacuna's latest posts demonstrate, he thinks "not showing Shojo trying every idea I think is more optimal than the direction he chose (even when my ideas are demonstrated to be less optimal than what he did do, or to not have a basis in the facts of the story) is a plot hole." Even though "characters not behaving optimally" is in no way a plot hole.

Since the pen is the plot hole in his metaphor, it's more like... I dunno, seeing something written on a piece of paper, and concluding that it must be written by a very specific brand of pen, and that pen must be nearby, and that anyone who can't see that is wrong, even though he has found no pen, no pen appears to be nearby, and to everyone else it looks like it was written in pencil.

Peelee

2018-12-26, 03:06 PM

I kind of like the pen metaphor better, because there’s no insanity implied.

Sure there is. Hallucinating the pen is certainly a possibility.

The Pilgrim

2018-12-26, 03:15 PM

The Pen is a Lie.

Caerulea

2018-12-26, 03:16 PM

Sure there is. Hallucinating the pen is certainly a possibility.
Perhaps we should avoid attributing insanity to a poster? They can be wrong without being insane. (I am wrong frequently, and am pretty sure I am sane.)

Ruck

2018-12-26, 03:19 PM

Sure there is. Hallucinating the pen is certainly a possibility.

I guess another way to look at the pen metaphor is:

I kind of like the pen metaphor better, because there’s no insanity implied. Suppose one person sees something they interpret one way, for example “I think I see a pen on that table”, and someone else says “no, it’s a trick of the light. It’s just a stick.”

Lacuna is now at the point where everyone else has told him they see a stick, but he still insists the object is objectively a pen; he picks up the pen/stick to write with it to prove that it's a pen, and even though nobody else sees any ink coming from it, he still insists there is ink coming from it, still insists it's a pen and that everyone else is wrong, and also that they are just stupid and brainwashed and lacking in self-awareness and in denial because they like sticks.

Kish

2018-12-26, 03:23 PM

Perhaps we should avoid attributing insanity to a poster? They can be wrong without being insane. (I am wrong frequently, and am pretty sure I am sane.)
I'm sorry to hear that.

For my part, I'm glad to say I'm quite sure I'm completely insane.

Ruck

2018-12-26, 03:25 PM

I'm sorry to hear that.

For my part, I'm glad to say I'm quite sure I'm completely insane.

It's been a long time since I read Catch-22, but I believe this acknowledgment of your insanity means you are indeed sane and fit for combat.

Peelee

2018-12-26, 03:26 PM

Perhaps we should avoid attributing insanity to a poster? They can be wrong without being insane. (I am wrong frequently, and am pretty sure I am sane.)

I agree on all counts. I was just saying that the statement wasn't entirely correct.

Caerulea

2018-12-26, 03:31 PM

I agree on all counts. I was just saying that the statement wasn't entirely correct.
Okay. I do think Lacuna occasionally makes some sense (am I insane‽) hence my objection. I suspect they will be stopping by shortly to complain of personal attacks (maybe linking to one of those fancy fallacy explanation pages).

Ruck

2018-12-26, 04:15 PM

I didn't use "insane" or "insanity" for various reasons, like crossing into personal attacks or muddying my metaphor. I suppose I find it difficult to come up with a metaphor where one person is in denial of and opposed to the reality the rest of us share without it seeming like I'm calling that person insane.

Okay. I do think Lacuna occasionally makes some sense (am I insane‽) hence my objection. I suspect they will be stopping by shortly to complain of personal attacks (maybe linking to one of those fancy fallacy explanation pages).

Oh, I don't think Lacuna has any standing to do that anymore. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23593009&postcount=446)

Caerulea

2018-12-26, 04:23 PM

Oh, I don't think Lacuna has any standing to do that anymore. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23593009&postcount=446)
Somehow, I don't think reason or lack of standing will stop them.

Vinyadan

2018-12-29, 08:22 PM

Aquillion

2018-12-29, 08:50 PM

I don’t understand this answer. Are you interested in learning from other people why they enjoy the story in the way they enjoy it, so you can understand and perhaps even share that enjoyment?Although this is tangential (I know you weren't addressing me), as the person who started this thread, I feel I should say that my purpose in asking questions like these is always just because I find it fun to think about the answer.

I mean, we all know the real underlying reason is "otherwise there wouldn't be a story", but it can be fun to take things apart and see how they tick, so to speak, or to just engage in vague fanfiction-y thoughts about why things are the way they are in an in-universe sense.

Kish

2018-12-29, 09:27 PM

"Because letters can be stolen, Miko is not invincible, and she might lose her purse. And then vital and secret info is ready to be eaten."
That would be a viable answer for why he sent a wizard, or a celestial, or a super anti-lich hit squad instead, had he done those things as Lacuna apparently thinks he should have.

It doesn't really address why he sent only Miko, but with orders to arrest the Order instead of delivering a message. "The message never gets there" would still be disastrous from Shojo's perspective and the letter wouldn't need to contain anything useful to a random bandit to be enough to convince Roy he wanted to talk to Shojo.

Ruck

2018-12-29, 11:14 PM

That would be a viable answer for why he sent a wizard, or a celestial, or a super anti-lich hit squad instead, had he done those things as Lacuna apparently thinks he should have.

It doesn't really address why he sent only Miko, but with orders to arrest the Order instead of delivering a message. "The message never gets there" would still be disastrous from Shojo's perspective and the letter wouldn't need to contain anything useful to a random bandit to be enough to convince Roy he wanted to talk to Shojo.

What I think about in debates like this is: I don't need characters to make optimal choices, just choices that are plausible for the character.

It probably would have been smarter to send a message than an arrest order, but given how paranoid Shojo is, i'm sure he would not risk a message falling into the wrong hands, especially anything with information about the gates. (Also, he's collaborating with Eugene, and given how Eugene regards Roy, I wouldn't be surprised if he convinced Shojo a plan that got Roy in person rather than delivered a message was better. I mean, Eugene can't berate Roy about Xykon through a letter. Well, he can, but he can't see Roy's reaction that way.)

And I'm sure Miko was sent because she was both best at tracking the Order and best capable of subduing the Order if need be, and probably sent by herself because traveling alone and by horse was the fastest way to find them (probably important given that they were on the move). Shojo probably felt comfortable sending her alone because he overestimated the degree to which he had her trigger-happiness reined in, which, well, we all saw how that turned out for him. (Upon rereading those first Miko strips recently, I'm surprised to the degree which her "if it Detects Evil, I can kill it" attitude was already present-- I didn't remember her being that explicit about it from the get-go.)

Was it optimal? Hardly. Was it in character for a paranoid schemer who thought he had the violent tendencies of one of his top lieutenants-- the one who eventually murdered him-- reined in well enough to follow orders? Yes.

Jasdoif

2018-12-30, 01:39 AM

It probably would have been smarter to send a message than an arrest order, but given how paranoid Shojo is, i'm sure he would not risk a message falling into the wrong hands, especially anything with information about the gates.I think what Kish said earlier is much closer: Shojo wasn't willing to entertain the possibility of the Order refusing to hear him out. To that end, he wanted them to hear him out in a location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed to get them to that location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed someone able to subdue the Order, if they didn't like it. To that end, he dispatched a powerful combatant: Miko.

It also gave Shojo a lot more options for contingencies in case the Order refused; although I don't think we're likely to ever find out about them, including whether they actually existed.

Ruck

2018-12-30, 01:50 AM

I think what Kish said earlier is much closer: Shojo wasn't willing to entertain the possibility of the Order refusing to hear him out. To that end, he wanted them to hear him out in a location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed to get them to that location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed someone able to subdue the Order, if they didn't like it. To that end, he dispatched a powerful combatant: Miko.

It also gave Shojo a lot more options for contingencies in case the Order refused; although I don't think we're likely to ever find out about them, including whether they actually existed.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, probably more than my idea. The point in general just being that it's not hard to find plausible reasons why Shojo would do it that way.

Mightymosy

2018-12-30, 05:38 AM

Because Shojo is supposed to be more than just a paranoid liar. He's also supposed to be an intelligent governor and chaotic good in alignment.

To be fair, 'Shojo is genuinely senile' was one of my top picks for an explanation a few months back, but the problem is that this isn't just Shojo having a brain-fart. He not only has to make some stunningly poor decisions himself, he has to ignore or forbid better suggestions from everyone around him.

I don't know, Dion. I suppose we'll have to see what turns up.

I'll answer your questions in the quotes in quotes inside (don't show up in this post unfortunately), which boil down (in my opinion) to two basic questions:

1. Why do Shojo and Miko plan and act as if Teleport doesn't exist?
2. Why do Shojo and Miko plan and act as if Future vision (Sangwaan) doesn't exist?

Both Teleport and prophetic visions are plot-breaking powers if someone takes the time to think it through.

That is precisely why almost every story which uses them uses them only sparingly, when the author thinks it fits the narrative.
Most times they give some explanation of why these powers can't be used here and can't be used there, but most of the time these explanations only work on a superficial level.
Because these stories don't have the focus to consider "What would a world with Teleport look like?"
These are stories about "Heroes getting from A to B, oh and a couple of times this is Teleport, but this is something special".

In other words: These powers come with the cost of story plausibility, pretty much almost always. The better the author, the lower the price, because they can give better explanations. But the core principle is still there.

OotS even is a PARODY. Of a game system that is KNOWN to be imperfect, especially in that its ecology wouldn't make sense.
I don't know why you get so angry over this. For me, it is clear that this story is constructed under the assumptions that these things don't HAVE to make perfect sense.

ETA:

I think what Kish said earlier is much closer: Shojo wasn't willing to entertain the possibility of the Order refusing to hear him out. To that end, he wanted them to hear him out in a location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed to get them to that location he controlled, whether they liked it or not. To that end, he needed someone able to subdue the Order, if they didn't like it. To that end, he dispatched a powerful combatant: Miko.

It also gave Shojo a lot more options for contingencies in case the Order refused; although I don't think we're likely to ever find out about them, including whether they actually existed.

Well, he could have tried TALKING first.

1. Cast Sending to Roy:
"Please come to Azure City. World at stake. Can't explain details".

if that doesn't work:

2. Send Miko as shown in the comic

I understand that Shojo has no problem forcing Roy to come, but there is little reason to use force on the first try - if you are being intelligent and efficient. But maybe that's the whole point: That Sojo isn't as clever as he may think. And makes stupid moves, you know, like every other character in the comic basically.

Jasdoif

2018-12-30, 04:16 PM

Well, he could have tried TALKING first.

1. Cast Sending to Roy:
"Please come to Azure City. World at stake. Can't explain details".

if that doesn't work:

2. Send Miko as shown in the comicHmm. So, if Roy goes to Azure City on a such a flimsy message, he shows a level of naivete on par with Scooby Doo and can't be relied on to keep a secret from the Sapphire Guard (who Shojo is specifically bypassing because they won't abide what he's doing)....And if Roy doesn't go to Azure City, at best Roy is going to have even less incentive to cooperate with Shojo because of the extra level of treachery; and Roy could be better prepared against Miko, or even reveal to Miko that he'd been contacted by someone in Azure City already.

No, if Shojo's going to drag the Order down to Azure City whether they like it or not, trying to be diplomatic first is (for him) a draw at best, and a loss the rest of the time.

Ruck

2018-12-30, 04:45 PM

Vinyadan

2018-12-30, 04:55 PM

I've always wanted to read that, but honestly this ALL CAPS LOCK stuff was too much for my eyes :smallsigh:

ctrl copy to word, shift+f3

Mightymosy

2019-01-01, 10:18 AM

Hmm. So, if Roy goes to Azure City on a such a flimsy message, he shows a level of naivete on par with Scooby Doo and can't be relied on to keep a secret from the Sapphire Guard (who Shojo is specifically bypassing because they won't abide what he's doing)....And if Roy doesn't go to Azure City, at best Roy is going to have even less incentive to cooperate with Shojo because of the extra level of treachery; and Roy could be better prepared against Miko, or even reveal to Miko that he'd been contacted by someone in Azure City already.

No, if Shojo's going to drag the Order down to Azure City whether they like it or not, trying to be diplomatic first is (for him) a draw at best, and a loss the rest of the time.

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.

2. Roy DID work with Shojo AFTER knowing Shojo treated Roy as **** - it might have even HELPED if Shojo could point to "Look, I TRIED to get you here without force, but you didn't come. So, for the sake of the world, I HAD to use force as SECOND measure."

Really, nothing to looe trying sending. Especially when Shojo can use information from Eugen to convince Roy to trust him. Eugene could tell Shojo family secrets so that Roy would be convinced that Eugene is with Shojo.
Heck, or just tell him how to contact Eugene again after Eugene couldn't appear in Ghostform to Roy anymore.

Unless Sending is incredibly expensive that a city ruler can't spend that resources......

Keltest

2019-01-01, 10:50 AM

Mightymosy

2019-01-01, 02:40 PM

I think youre missing the point. Shojo does not want to offer Roy the opportunity to say no. Contacting him via sending means he's relying entirely on his winning personality to persuade Roy, and Shojo fundamentally doesn't want to leave it that much up to chance.

No, you're missing my point: Shojo can send a message, and THEN, if Roy DOES decline, STILL force him via the fake trial.
Thus Shojo doesn't REALLY offer Roy an opportunity to say no, but IF Roy says YES, Roy does so under the assumption that he COULD have said no, thus keeping Roy in good spirit, which would be preferable as a working condition.

Letting people THINK they choose their own destiny while in reality controlling their behavior if they choose a decision you don't like sounds pretty chaotic rulership to me, you know, just like a Shojo.

Ruck

2019-01-01, 02:45 PM

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.
What are you talking about?

zimmerwald1915

2019-01-01, 02:55 PM

What are you talking about?
Nale's plan to lure Roy to Cliffport. But it could also Durkon's vampire's plan to lure Roy to the banquet hall. Or Xykon's plan to lure Roy (who admittedly told Elan to do it) to touch Dorukan's Gate. This particular response is a pattern of Roy's.

Not that Shojo could have known that. The only one that preceded him sending Miko north was in Dorukan's dungeon, which Shojo's diviners couldn't have scried due to Cloister even if they knew to look.

Ruck

2019-01-01, 03:01 PM

I see. In that case...

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.
"By a known villain"-- whoever you're referring to-- is not a point in your favor here, as Roy knows there is an immediate threat to be dealt with as a result of being contacted by a known villain. Roy being contacted by a complete stranger to discuss something in person he can't discuss by sending is not nearly the same thing.

No, you're missing my point: Shojo can send a message, and THEN, if Roy DOES decline, STILL force him via the fake trial.
Jasdoif already covered this.

Fyraltari

2019-01-01, 03:01 PM

No, you're missing my point: Shojo can send a message, and THEN, if Roy DOES decline, STILL force him via the fake trial.
Thus Shojo doesn't REALLY offer Roy an opportunity to say no, but IF Roy says YES, Roy does so under the assumption that he COULD have said no, thus keeping Roy in good spirit, which would be preferable as a working condition.

Letting people THINK they choose their own destiny while in reality controlling their behavior if they choose a decision you don't like sounds pretty chaotic rulership to me, you know, just like a Shojo.

But then Shojo wouldn’t have any guarantee against Roy changing his mind, which is the purpose of the trial. On the other hand, if Roy changed his mind, [/he] would have leverage against Shojo, since he could rat his betrayal to the paladin (and he could prove it easily: he knows the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard). Yes we know Roy wouldn’t do that but Shojo doesn’t. Hell since his source of info on Roy was Eugene, it’s borderline miraculous Shojo thought Roy was compétent and trustworthy enough to handle this in any capacity.

Mightymosy

2019-01-01, 03:32 PM

Nale's plan to lure Roy to Cliffport. But it could also Durkon's vampire's plan to lure Roy to the banquet hall. Or Xykon's plan to lure Roy (who admittedly told Elan to do it) to touch Dorukan's Gate. This particular response is a pattern of Roy's.

Not that Shojo could have known that. The only one that preceded him sending Miko north was in Dorukan's dungeon, which Shojo's diviners couldn't have scried due to Cloister even if they knew to look.

Counterpoint: Shojo ALSO didn't know that Roy would NOT agree to come if he just used sending first.
Which is my basic point: I just see no reason in NOT trying sending first, while STILL sending Miko if sending does not work.

I see. In that case...

"By a known villain"-- whoever you're referring to-- is not a point in your favor here, as Roy knows there is an immediate threat to be dealt with as a result of being contacted by a known villain. Roy being contacted by a complete stranger to discuss something in person he can't discuss by sending is not nearly the same thing.

Jasdoif already covered this.

1. I covered Jasdoif......so what's your point?

2. Let's take the Nale example:

Nale used sending to lure Roy to cliffport city. Note that illusions are a thing in this world, so no telling whether Julia was really with Nale or not, right?
And Roy dropped everything he did, rushed with his team to Cliffport, and then entered the warehouse on his own. No scyring the inside, no contacting police, just walking inside and hoping big damn hero Roy will save his sister.

So, if Shojo sended something like:
"Please come to Azure City. World at stake. Your father is here"
And a second sending with Eugene:
"PS: Xykon lives, you moron! Love, dad"
Then Roy would NOT go there?

I find that highly unlikely, considering everything Roy did this far.

And no, Shojo doesn't know all of this. But he ALSO doesn't know that this would NOT work, so why not try?
Eugene HAS managed to influence Roy by "sending" in ghostform before, so why not try the talking approach again first?

But then Shojo wouldn’t have any guarantee against Roy changing his mind, which is the purpose of the trial. On the other hand, if Roy changed his mind, [/he] would have leverage against Shojo, since he could rat his betrayal to the paladin (and he could prove it easily: he knows the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard). Yes we know Roy wouldn’t do that but Shojo doesn’t. Hell since his source of info on Roy was Eugene, it’s borderline miraculous Shojo thought Roy was compétent and trustworthy enough to handle this in any capacity.

With the current plan that happened in the comic, Shojo needs two things:
1) Roy agrees to help Shojo even after Shojo arrested him with force and faked a trial where Roy thought he and his team were about to be murdered for something they didn't do.
2) Roy agrees to NOT rat out Shojo to the paladins, despite Shojo arrested Roy by force and faked a trial where Roy thought he and his team were about to be murdered for something they didn't do.

I don't understand what "talking first" would have resonably changed.

And yes, Shojo putting trust into Roy's competence was miraculous, but that's the case anyway, and maybe it has more to to with Roy having witnessed the Gate's destruction than with Shojo evaluating Roy's competence per se.

Fyraltari

2019-01-01, 03:39 PM

CWith the current plan that happened in the comic, Shojo needs two things:
1) Roy agrees to help Shojo even after Shojo arrested him with force and faked a trial where Roy thought he and his team were about to be murdered for something they didn't do.
He doesn't have a choice anymore since if he doesn't agree Shojo will "discover" Eugene's imposture and have the trial redone. He threatens as much. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html)

2) Roy agrees to NOT rat out Shojo to the paladins, despite Shojo arrested Roy by force and faked a trial where Roy thought he and his team were about to be murdered for something they didn't do.
Who do you think the Sapphire Guard would believe? Their Lord and Commander or some random Fighter? Roy doesn't have any proof of Shojo hiring him so it would be his wor against his. If their were no fake trial, Roy knowing the Sceret Lore of the Sapphire Guard would be evidence of his claim.

The Pilgrim

2019-01-01, 03:42 PM

Are people seriously proposing that Shojo should have attempted to Send Roy?

"Need you to Azure City to stand trial for crimes punishable with death. Relax, will eventually be found not guilty. World at stake. Love, Shojo."

Going to work, yes.

Aquillion

2019-01-01, 03:51 PM

If he's able to manage a private Sending, he could just say:

Xykon alive. Entire world in danger. In contact with your father. Bring party to Azure city immediately for further information and assistance. Signed, Lord Shojo.

Followed by a second Sending:

Father says Xykon not alive-alive; has not spontaneously returned to life. Is still undead, still around due to phylactery. Says Wizard would have known this.

Ruck

2019-01-01, 03:52 PM

Counterpoint: Shojo ALSO didn't know that Roy would NOT agree to come if he just used sending first.
Which is my basic point: I just see no reason in NOT trying sending first, while STILL sending Miko if sending does not work.

Shojo does. That's all that matters.

1. I covered Jasdoif......so what's your point?

You responded to him, but I don't think you countered his points at all.

Also:

So, if Shojo sended something like:
"Please come to Azure City. World at stake. Your father is here"
And a second sending with Eugene:
"PS: Xykon lives, you moron! Love, dad"
Then Roy would NOT go there?

I find that highly unlikely, considering everything Roy did this far.

What you find "highly unlikely", as a reader of the comic with omniscient information, is a lot less relevant than "What Shojo thinks he needs to do."

And no, Shojo doesn't know all of this. But he ALSO doesn't know that this would NOT work, so why not try?

"Why not try anything you aren't sure won't work"? That's your defense? Really? I dunno, here's one reason: Shojo believes he's only got one shot at this and has to make sure he gets it right the first time.

2. Let's take the Nale example:

Nale used sending to lure Roy to cliffport city. Note that illusions are a thing in this world, so no telling whether Julia was really with Nale or not, right?

How would Nale create a believable illusion of a person he's never met or seen?

Grey_Wolf_c

2019-01-01, 03:57 PM

If he's able to manage a private Sending, he could just say:

Followed by a second Sending:

Followed by Roy thinking "oh, Xykon's alive? Better visit the Oracle and figure out where to go next", and skipping going to Shojo at all (if nothing else to not have to deal with his dad). Since Shojo wants to be kept in the loop, the possibility that Roy might decide not to is not to his liking.

Grey Wolf

Mightymosy

2019-01-01, 04:19 PM

He doesn't have a choice anymore since if he doesn't agree Shojo will "discover" Eugene's imposture and have the trial redone. He threatens as much. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html)

Who do you think the Sapphire Guard would believe? Their Lord and Commander or some random Fighter? Roy doesn't have any proof of Shojo hiring him so it would be his wor against his. If their were no fake trial, Roy knowing the Sceret Lore of the Sapphire Guard would be evidence of his claim.

There's no reason to include secret saphire guard lore in the sending, so I wouldn't recommend Shojo doing so.

Are people seriously proposing that Shojo should have attempted to Send Roy?

"Need you to Azure City to stand trial for crimes punishable with death. Relax, will eventually be found not guilty. World at stake. Love, Shojo."

Going to work, yes.

Yes, but not with the message you propose.
How about you imagine this one instead:

If he's able to manage a private Sending, he could just say:

Followed by a second Sending:
(please look above: quotes in quotes apperantly doesn't work)

Shojo does. That's all that matters.

Yes. And I don't see a compelling reason why Shojo shouldn't try sending first. He didn't and I think that's a mistake, and I also think that is either an oversight (aka small plothole) or a deliberate decision to show that Shojo makes stupid decisions as well (aka NOT a hyperintelligent mastermind schemer as Lacuna said).

You responded to him, but I don't think you countered his points at all.

And what does your point help the discussion, then? Are you answering for Jasdoif or what's the deal?
Otherwise I guess I'll just wait for what he says to my point I gave in response to him.

Also:

What you find "highly unlikely", as a reader of the comic with omniscient information, is a lot less relevant than "What Shojo thinks he needs to do."

"Why not try anything you aren't sure won't work"? That's your defense? Really? I dunno, here's one reason: Shojo believes he's only got one shot at this and has to make sure he gets it right the first time.

Why should Shojo believe he has only one shot?
Sending (talk) + Miko (force).
Two shots, one with the bonus of having a more cooperative Roy, the second as a backup if that doesn't work.

If you can try something that just might work, with little cost attached to trying, the default stance should geneally be "Let's try that first".
In other words, one would need a compelling reason NOT to do it.
And so far, the only compelling reasoning I have read is that it basically WAS a bad decision by Shojo.

How would Nale create a believable illusion of a person he's never met or seen?
Errrm, by scrying on her?
Or visiting her without abducting her?
Or is abduction a requirement to cast illusionary pictures of someone?

Ruck

2019-01-01, 04:25 PM

Yes. And I don't see a compelling reason why Shojo shouldn't try sending first. He didn't and I think that's a mistake, and I also think that is either an oversight (aka small plothole) or a deliberate decision to show that Shojo makes stupid decisions as well (aka NOT a hyperintelligent mastermind schemer as Lacuna said).
People have given you multiple reasons why Shojo wouldn't do that first or how a Sending could backfire them. Just declaring "I don't find them compelling" is not, well, compelling.

And what does your point help the discussion, then? Are you answering for Jasdoif or what's the deal?
Otherwise I guess I'll just wait for what he says to my point I gave in response to him.

It means, if you want to debate the point, you can't just say you refuted it when you didn't. Similar to the above.

Why should Shojo believe he has only one shot?
Sending (talk) + Miko (force).
Two shots, one with the bonus of having a more cooperative Roy, the second as a backup if that doesn't work.

If you can try something that just might work, with little cost attached to trying, the default stance should geneally be "Let's try that first".
In other words, one would need a compelling reason NOT to do it.
And so far, the only compelling reasoning I have read is that it basically WAS a bad decision by Shojo.

Again, people have given you multiple examples of how a Sending could backfire. You have chosen not to address any of them.

Errrm, by scrying on her?
Or visiting her without abducting her?
Or is abduction a requirement to cast illusionary pictures of someone?

1)How are they going to scry on someone they know nothing about?
2)Okay, so they get close enough to her to abduct her, but don't, and this is supposed to fool Roy and she's not actually in danger? Setting aside the fact that there's no reason they just wouldn't abduct her, if they're able to get that close to her, she is in danger.

When your answers amount to "If we assume all these needless complexities, it could work!" they aren't much in the way of answers.

The Pilgrim

2019-01-01, 04:41 PM

Yes, but not with the message you propose.
How about you imagine this one instead:

Xykon alive. Entire world in danger. In contact with your father. Bring party to Azure city immediately for further information and assistance. Signed, Lord Shojo.

Problems:

1) The Paladins seem to already know that the Order was responsible for blowing up Dorukan's. They will want to bring the Order to Justice.

2) Shojo needs to make Roy stand trial, in order to have a legitimate reason to reveal him the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard. Sure, he can tell him anyway in secret, but the Paladins wouldn't like that if they happen to hear about it. For Shojo, it is best to play it safe and conduct his mock trial plan.

3) If Shojo reveals the true identity of his summoned "Deva", the chances he can rig the Trial are slim.

4) As Grey Wolf suggested, Roy wouldn't be particulary moved to go to Azure City on the information that his father is there. If anything, such reveal would lure Roy to move as far away as possible from there.

Jasdoif

2019-01-01, 04:53 PM

1. Roy did react to some flimsy sending spell message (by a known villain!) with the plan "Just spring the trap". Don't think naivete is of concern, not in this comic.

2. Roy DID work with Shojo AFTER knowing Shojo treated Roy as **** - it might have even HELPED if Shojo could point to "Look, I TRIED to get you here without force, but you didn't come. So, for the sake of the world, I HAD to use force as SECOND measure."It's very interesting, that you choose Roy going behind Shojo's back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) as a reason to guarantee a Roy useful to Shojo trusting Shojo even less, would be an improvement in Shojo's eyes. Doubling down on Roy's defiant streak is a step in the opposite direction.

And like you said, it's true that Roy knew who Nale when Nale contacted him; as opposed to whatever caster Shojo had who would be no different than a spammer to Roy...unless that caster was Eugene, who is worse than a spammer to Roy (and Eugene would have no problem with bringing that up to Shojo...nor, I suppose, with contacting Roy on his own initiative if he felt it furthered his goal of getting into the afterlife).
The key detail in Shojo's decision-making is that Shojo had "the paladins do not discover my ruses", where ruses includes both senility and flagrantly violating the oath of the Sapphire Guard, as his primary criteria. Getting a message to Roy would have far nicer, for Roy; but including actual details of what he wanted Roy to do, the best way he'd have to convince Roy to come to Azure City, could possibly pose a complication for Shojo...And that's what was important to Shojo.

Bringing Roy and the rest of the Order in for the trial over destroying Dorukan's Gate, during which the paladins would tolerate Shojo revealing the secrets of the Sapphire Guard, presented little personal risk to Shojo to get to that point; and he'd have his usual control over the environment (Azure City) when he decided to present his offer. So that's the route he chose.

Nale used sending to lure Roy to cliffport city. Note that illusions are a thing in this world, so no telling whether Julia was really with Nale or not, right?That would depend on how sending's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) "The subject recognizes you if it knows you" is applied, I think.

Mightymosy

2019-01-17, 11:14 AM

Sorry forgot about this thread.....

@Jasdoif: How about this:

1. Shojo, to Wizard/Cleric who can cast Sending:
"Uh, my cat wants you to send this as a magic message to some guy called Roy Greenhilt:
×Please come visit uncle Shojo @ Azure City to talk about Xykon. Love, your father, kisses from Julia and Sara×
Uh, and my cat wants you to scry to see whether he starts moving to Azure City."
Not every caster is a paladin, right? NO NEED to inform any Sapphire guard person to send, right?

2. If Roy doesn't move towards AC, talk to Miko:
"My cat wants you to bring the Order of the stick to me, for weakening the fabric of the world. Also my cat wants you to bring them alive."

I'm sure someone more versed in English could find better wordings, but I fail to see a general problem with this approach.
Plan A gets you a cooperative Roy to AC, Plan B works as shown in the comic.

Fyraltari

2019-01-17, 11:23 AM

Keltest

2019-01-17, 11:25 AM

Aquillion

2019-01-18, 01:41 PM

People have given you multiple reasons why Shojo wouldn't do that first or how a Sending could backfire them. Just declaring "I don't find them compelling" is not, well, compelling.I think you have to weigh this against the risk that sending Miko could backfire. What if the order resisted arrest? What if they fought back and killed her? (They nearly beat her on two occasions!) Then he would have wasted his best Paladin, wasted the extensive travel time Miko spent reaching them, alienated the order, and accomplished nothing. Once they've determined that Shojo is trying to arrest them (and is therefore an enemy), most other options are off the table.

I'd argue that a Sending is far less risky. Yes, there are ways it could go wrong. Yes, if it does go wrong, it might complicate moving to plan B. But in both respects it seems faster, safer, and less likely to go catastrophically wrong than just sending Miko as plan A.

He knows that Roy is determined to satisfy the blood oath and beat Xykon, so information about Xykon is, realistically speaking, better bait for him than "send our most hotheaded Paladin to arrest him, possibly violently." There was absolutely no reason to think the order would willingly allow themselves to be dragged halfway across the world to stand trial - the fact that they even allowed it as far as they did was due to freak coincidences - and if / when it came to a fight, while Miko is strong, there was absolutely no reason to think she could reliably beat the entire order. They might not kill her, given that she's a Paladin, but even that isn't certain (either he knows they have a murderous evil team member, or he knows nothing about their team composition; either way Miko dying is a very real risk.) There's also a very real risk that Miko, being overzealous, might actually kill them if they resist arrest.

Also, sending Miko gets her directly involved with what's ultimately a deception on his part; having her in constant contact with the order risks her realizing what was up when he later recruits them, or having lingering bad feelings if she had to fight them. This could cause problems with her down the line... as, in fact, it did, leading to his death.

You have to weigh the risks of alternative plans vs. the risks of the one he chose. And the one he chose was extremely risky in several ways. A Sending + Teleport isn't without risk, sure, but the risks are far more manageable, especially since (with careful wording) he could, if necessary, justify bringing them in quickly as part of an investigation into what they did to the gate, while making it clear to Roy that he needed to come because Xykon was still alive.

zimmerwald1915

2019-01-18, 01:45 PM

(They nearly beat her on two occasions!)
Come again? Neither the fight outside Wooden Forest nor the fight outside the Weary Travelers' Inn & Tavern was anything approaching close.

Kish

2019-01-18, 01:56 PM

zimmerwald1915

2019-01-18, 02:00 PM

By Rich's description of the fight outside the inn, Roy might have dropped her if he'd attacked at the end. He just surrendered because "she drops me and then slaughters all of us because we didn't surrender" was a risk he wasn't willing to take.
That "might" is doing a lot of work. In Mr. Burlew's post, it's even all-capitalized. It also refers only to Roy's thought process, and does not say that Miko's remaining hit points actually were lower than Roy's likely (or even maximum) damage output.

I maintain it wasn't even close. Even if it was, however, that doesn't get us up to two near-defeats for Miko by the Order.

Ruck

2019-01-18, 02:49 PM

*snip*

What you believe is less risky is less important than what Shojo believes is less risky. And as I've said already, it's clear he overestimated his ability to rein in Miko's violent tendencies; how his life ended is pretty indisputable evidence of that. I do not think Miko was in as much danger from the Order as you seem to-- possible in theory, but as zimmerwald has said, it wasn't as close as you make it sound.

I think it's important to look at what happened not through the lens of optimal decision-making, but Shojo's motivations. Given how he prioritizes being in control of the situation, and how he overestimates his control of Miko, I believe his decision to be plausible and reasonable.

Grey Watcher

2019-01-18, 03:26 PM

Kish

2019-01-18, 03:35 PM

While sending Miko in particular backfired spectacularly in the long run, arresting them via the Sapphire Guard really did involve the fewest complications as far as I can tell.

[LIST]
If Shojo sent someone to contact the Order without a Sapphire Guard arrest warrant, they almost certainly would've sent a Paladin to arrest them anyway.
How would that happen? No one but Shojo, ever, gives orders to the Sapphire Guard in online content (meaning, since the timeline of How the Paladin Got His Scar). The closest anything comes is Miko snapping orders at Hinjo and a couple unnamed female paladins--all of whom primarily act irritated in response.

Grey Watcher

2019-01-18, 03:40 PM

How would that happen? No one but Shojo, ever, gives orders to the Sapphire Guard in online content (meaning, since the timeline of How the Paladin Got His Scar). The closest anything comes is Miko snapping orders at Hinjo and a couple unnamed female paladins--all of whom primarily act irritated in response.

Fair point, but unless Shojo kept the Gate Integrity Monitor strictly for his eyes only, I think the second bullet point is still valid: a failure to send someone (or even failure to use SG resources to divine their identities) would raise a lot of really inconvenient questions. Not good for a low-profile operation.

Lacuna Caster

2019-01-18, 04:55 PM

I think you have to weigh this against the risk that sending Miko could backfire. What if the order resisted arrest? What if they fought back and killed her? (They nearly beat her on two occasions!) Then he would have wasted his best Paladin, wasted the extensive travel time Miko spent reaching them, alienated the order, and accomplished nothing. Once they've determined that Shojo is trying to arrest them (and is therefore an enemy), most other options are off the table...
Oh joy! I was actually dreading returning to this thread, but I'm glad to see we're in broad agreement on this topic.

Won't dig in just yet, though. I have a few errands to run.

Mightymosy

2019-01-19, 02:51 AM

Because Shojo is afraid that once Roy answers the Sending and agrees to help he (Shojo) would have no way of controlling Roy. And Shojo doesn't do "trust that the guy is Good/competent enough to work in your best interests".
Does he not? In the plan he does in the comic, how exactly does he control Roy after the fake trial? By hoping Roy will do the best he can, I'd think.

If Roy blabs to Miko about receiving a Sending from Shojo in Azure City, it could create significant problems for Shojo.
That doesn't count, because if Roy blabs to Miko about secretly working for Shojo behind the paladins' backs would also cause problems for Shojo (oh wait, it DID cause Shojo problems when Miko learned that!), but Shojo STILL employed Roy.

Either way, he could have the Sending be worded as coming from Eugene, instead.

There's just no way a simple "call" could be more risky than the fake arrest & fake order & secret employment business was, if we take this seriously.
But we don't have to. The comic was still a parody back then, and the reason is given: "Stupid railroad plot" ;-)

Fyraltari

2019-01-19, 05:18 AM

Does he not? In the plan he does in the comic, how exactly does he control Roy after the fake trial? By hoping Roy will do the best he can, I'd think.
By threatening him the moment he says this isn't his business (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html).
That doesn't count, because if Roy blabs to Miko about secretly working for Shojo behind the paladins' backs would also cause problems for Shojo (oh wait, it DID cause Shojo problems when Miko learned that!), but Shojo STILL employed Roy.[/QUOTE]
Yes but with the fake trial Shojo could be sure Roy wouldn't tell anyone.

Either way, he could have the Sending be worded as coming from Eugene, instead.

There's just no way a simple "call" could be more risky than the fake arrest & fake order & secret employment business was, if we take this seriously.
Tht's because you have saner priorities than Shojo. A character acting sub-optimally is not a flaw in the story, especially when that is consistent with that character's personnality.

Aquillion

2019-01-19, 09:15 AM

I maintain it wasn't even close. Even if it was, however, that doesn't get us up to two near-defeats for Miko by the Order.
The first time, they could have likely beaten her after the rain stopped (Haley was planning to do so.) The only reason they didn't was because Roy wanted to bone her and Durkon mistakenly believed the storm had been a sign from Thor.

And even the second time (which the description does make out to be a lot closer than you're saying), the fact that Durkon refused to contribute and only healed people slightly to stabilize them was a huge factor. If he'd been attacking or providing proper support, Miko would have lost easily. And, again, the misconception that led him to that position was pure luck.

Keltest

2019-01-19, 09:16 AM

The first time, they could have easily beaten her after the rain stopped (Haley was planning to do so.) The only reason they didn't was because Roy wanted to bone her and Durkon mistakenly believed the storm had been a sign from Thor.

I question that assessment of their abilities. Miko's sucker punch hurt, but it wasn't the key to her victory, Durkon's claims about the storm aside.

Aquillion

2019-01-19, 09:23 AM

While sending Miko in particular backfired spectacularly in the long run, arresting them via the Sapphire Guard really did involve the fewest complications as far as I can tell.

If Shojo sent someone to contact the Order without a Sapphire Guard arrest warrant, they almost certainly would've sent a Paladin to arrest them anyway.
And if Shojo explicitly forbade them to, that would probably lead to them either suspecting his duplicity or believing his senility was getting severe enough to warrant taking him off the throne.
If he sends a non-SG messenger (Teleport Wizard or someone else), then it becomes a race between said messenger and the Sapphire Guard, complete with really awkward conversation when they meet.

By getting them arrested for blowing up the Gate and having them tried and found Not Guilty, the Order's no longer in the Sapphire Guard's crosshairs, which is really helpful when you're trying to work with them behind the Guard's back.

TL;DR, the fixed trial helps avert unwanted scrutiny from the Sapphire Guard.He can imply to the Sapphire Guard that his sending is intended to get Roy over for questioning. Remember, most of them are not Miko - they'll understand that a polite "we need you to come so we can discuss what happened in the Redmountain Hills" is reasonable, especially since they want to avoid letting information leak about the gate (and given Shojo's idiosyncrasies, him being polite to Roy isn't really weird or suspicious as long as he's ultimately getting him to come.)

Shojo's smart, he can thread the needle between a wording that would avoid scaring Roy off and a wording that the Paladins would accept. (Although there's no reason the Paladins actually need to know his precise wording - he can just tell them that he's sent Roy a message to summon him for questioning, and if Roy doesn't come then eventually they can go get him. This is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and there's no particular reason why he needs to tell Roy he risks being arrested if he comes. Most of the Paladins are smart enough to realize that using the carrot before the stick is fair.)

Keep in mind that Shojo is able to get away with "do this because my cat tells you to" most of the time. He doesn't have to give detailed rationales for his actions as long as they make broad sense. And "we've determined some broad information about Roy that we can use to convince him to come peacefully" is fairly reasonable.

Keltest

2019-01-19, 09:54 AM

I feel like any claim to the effect of "he could have trusted Roy/The Sapphire Guard to do/not do X" is kind of missing the point. Shojo was not a trusting individual, period. Maybe he could have afforded a little more, but he didn't. That's part of his character. And yeah, its a character flaw that ended up getting him killed, and there are alternatives he could have taken if he didn't have it, but he WAS mistrustful, and he preferred coercion to persuasion because he was unable to trust people enough to rely on the latter.

Lacuna Caster

2019-01-19, 03:30 PM

Okay, I'm just gonna wade in here and reply to stuff in a fairly ad-hoc manner, since the last few pages look like they've been a clusterfump there's no way to easily untangle. But hey, props to MightyMosy and Aquillion, who I think are getting my drift.

I think you have to weigh this against the risk that sending Miko could backfire. What if the order resisted arrest? What if they fought back and killed her? (They nearly beat her on two occasions!) Then he would have wasted his best Paladin, wasted the extensive travel time Miko spent reaching them, alienated the order, and accomplished nothing. Once they've determined that Shojo is trying to arrest them (and is therefore an enemy), most other options are off the table.

I'd argue that a Sending is far less risky. Yes, there are ways it could go wrong. Yes, if it does go wrong, it might complicate moving to plan B. But in both respects it seems faster, safer, and less likely to go catastrophically wrong than just sending Miko as plan A.

He knows that Roy is determined to satisfy the blood oath and beat Xykon, so information about Xykon is, realistically speaking, better bait for him than "send our most hotheaded Paladin to arrest him, possibly violently." There was absolutely no reason to think the order would willingly allow themselves to be dragged halfway across the world to stand trial - the fact that they even allowed it as far as they did was due to freak coincidences - and if / when it came to a fight, while Miko is strong, there was absolutely no reason to think she could reliably beat the entire order. They might not kill her, given that she's a Paladin, but even that isn't certain (either he knows they have a murderous evil team member, or he knows nothing about their team composition; either way Miko dying is a very real risk.) There's also a very real risk that Miko, being overzealous, might actually kill them if they resist arrest.

Also, sending Miko gets her directly involved with what's ultimately a deception on his part; having her in constant contact with the order risks her realizing what was up when he later recruits them, or having lingering bad feelings if she had to fight them. This could cause problems with her down the line... as, in fact, it did, leading to his death.

You have to weigh the risks of alternative plans vs. the risks of the one he chose. And the one he chose was extremely risky in several ways. A Sending + Teleport isn't without risk, sure, but the risks are far more manageable, especially since (with careful wording) he could, if necessary, justify bringing them in quickly as part of an investigation into what they did to the gate, while making it clear to Roy that he needed to come because Xykon was still alive.

While sending Miko in particular backfired spectacularly in the long run, arresting them via the Sapphire Guard really did involve the fewest complications as far as I can tell.

If Shojo sent someone to contact the Order without a Sapphire Guard arrest warrant, they almost certainly would've sent a Paladin to arrest them anyway.
And if Shojo explicitly forbade them to, that would probably lead to them either suspecting his duplicity or believing his senility was getting severe enough to warrant taking him off the throne.
If he sends a non-SG messenger (Teleport Wizard or someone else), then it becomes a race between said messenger and the Sapphire Guard, complete with really awkward conversation when they meet.

Oh, it's very likely that the Guard at large would have insisted on an investigation into the Gate's destruction (unless Shojo, for some reason, was the only one who knew the Gate was destroyed, which he probably wasn't, given he says that his diviner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) told him the Redmountain Gate has been destroyed.) But again, this only raises the question of why the Guard at large- including Miko herself- didn't demand a more rational response to the problem (e.g, full-scale mobilisation, use of teleport/wind-walk.)

In any case, Shojo doesn't need to send any physical person in order to contact the OOTS- he can just use a Sending spell. And there's no good reason why the Guard themselves can't just be teleported/wind-walked to the OOTS' location, thus retrieving them near-instantaneously, rather than weeks later. Then he can run the trial, pull whatever fraudulent shenanigans he needs to, and TP them to wherever he needs them to go next in less than 48 hours.

But all of this is predicated on the idea that Shojo and Eugene should primarily care about retrieving the Order at all. They shouldn't. Eugene's top priority is killing Xykon, and Shojo's top priority is safeguarding the Gates- to the extent that Shojo suspects Xykon (and Redcloak) have nefarious intentions regarding the Gates, destroying Xykon would solve both their problems. Getting backup from the Order is a strictly secondary consideration.

And there is nothing to stop Shojo and Eugene from sharing their information about Xykon and Redcloak with the paladins. There's no actual reason for it, aside from "they are lying liars who lie". Shojo's ostensible purpose for hiring the Order was to gather evidence of an active threat to the Gates, when he has a source of that evidence already floating right there in his throne room.

Keltest

2019-01-19, 03:46 PM

Okay, I'm just gonna wade in here and reply to stuff in a fairly ad-hoc manner, since the last few pages look like they've been a clusterfump there's no way to easily untangle. But hey, props to MightyMosy and Aquillion, who I think are getting my drift.

Oh, it's very likely that the Guard at large would have insisted on an investigation into the Gate's destruction (unless Shojo, for some reason, was the only one who knew the Gate was destroyed, which he probably wasn't, given he says that his diviner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) told him the Redmountain Gate has been destroyed.) But again, this only raises the question of why the Guard at large- including Miko herself- didn't demand a more rational response to the problem (e.g, full-scale mobilisation, use of teleport/wind-walk.)

In any case, Shojo doesn't need to send any physical person in order to contact the OOTS- he can just use a Sending spell. And there's no good reason why the Guard themselves can't just be teleported/wind-walked to the OOTS' location, thus retrieving them near-instantaneously, rather than weeks later. Then he can run the trial, pull whatever fraudulent shenanigans he needs to, and TP them to wherever he needs them to go next in less than 48 hours.

But all of this is predicated on the idea that Shojo and Eugene should primarily care about retrieving the Order at all. They shouldn't. Eugene's top priority is killing Xykon, and Shojo's top priority is safeguarding the Gates- to the extent that Shojo suspects Xykon (and Redcloak) have nefarious intentions regarding the Gates, destroying Xykon would solve both their problems. Getting backup from the Order is a strictly secondary consideration.

And there is nothing to stop Shojo and Eugene from sharing their information about Xykon and Redcloak with the paladins. There's no actual reason for it, aside from "they are lying liars who lie". Shojo's ostensible purpose for hiring the Order was to gather evidence of an active threat to the Gates, when he has a source of that evidence already floating right there in his throne room.

Shojo doesn't believe the paladins would be willing to go after Xykon without proof that he was an imminent and overwhelming threat to the Azure City gate.

Your argument is basically "shojo should have ignored his own reasoning in favor of my reasoning and priorities, because reasons." That's not compelling. Its never been compelling, and I don't understand why you keep repeating it as if it proves anything.

Lacuna Caster

2019-01-19, 04:04 PM

The first time, they could have likely beaten her after the rain stopped (Haley was planning to do so.) The only reason they didn't was because Roy wanted to bone her and Durkon mistakenly believed the storm had been a sign from Thor.

And even the second time (which the description does make out to be a lot closer than you're saying), the fact that Durkon refused to contribute and only healed people slightly to stabilize them was a huge factor. If he'd been attacking or providing proper support, Miko would have lost easily. And, again, the misconception that led him to that position was pure luck.
Durkon being on the Order's side would likely have been pretty decisive, given he's a primary caster, yeah. Heck, just V's disintegrate spell could've finished the fight then and there, if he'd rolled a 20.

Shojo apparently being in the general habit of sending out Miko on dangerous solo missions in distant countries is pretty appalling, given that if she gets killed, captured or incapacitated, there's no-one to bring her back for resurrection or Send for help.

He can imply to the Sapphire Guard that his sending is intended to get Roy over for questioning. Remember, most of them are not Miko - they'll understand that a polite "we need you to come so we can discuss what happened in the Redmountain Hills" is reasonable, especially since they want to avoid letting information leak about the gate (and given Shojo's idiosyncrasies, him being polite to Roy isn't really weird or suspicious as long as he's ultimately getting him to come.)

Shojo's smart, he can thread the needle between a wording that would avoid scaring Roy off and a wording that the Paladins would accept. (Although there's no reason the Paladins actually need to know his precise wording - he can just tell them that he's sent Roy a message to summon him for questioning, and if Roy doesn't come then eventually they can go get him. This is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, and there's no particular reason why he needs to tell Roy he risks being arrested if he comes. Most of the Paladins are smart enough to realize that using the carrot before the stick is fair.)

Keep in mind that Shojo is able to get away with "do this because my cat tell you to" most of the time. He doesn't have to give detailed rationales for his actions as long as they make broad sense. And "we've determined some broad information about Roy that we can use to convince him to come peacefully" is fairly reasonable.
Also, this. Though, really, I don't see any reason why Miko would have particular trouble with this approach- she was perfectly happy to play nice with the Order in most consequential respects as soon as she found out they weren't guilty of associated crimes by the Linear Guild... which is also relevant information that Shojo chose not to impart for some reason.

All Shojo/Eugene had to do here, really, was tell the honest-to-Gods truth- The OOTS blew up the gate, but the real long-term threat here is Xykon and Redcloak, so 'Imma gonna talk to this Greenhilt dude so we don't have any misunderstandings and maybe we can coordinate to solve the problem'.

Shojo doesn't believe the paladins would be willing to go after Xykon without proof that he was an imminent and overwhelming threat to the Azure City gate.
Shojo apparently sends his paladins out to deliver letters and scrub his cat's litter-box, which I think can be said to be a little below Miko's and O-Chul's pay grade. I don't see chasing after a mass-murdering lich sorceror being beneath their dignity.

And again, it's not just Shojo you have to explain here. Everyone around him who knows about the Gate's destruction and/or Xykon's survival needs to be nearly as dense.

Keltest

2019-01-19, 04:20 PM

Shojo apparently sends his paladins out to deliver letters and scrub his cat's litter-box, which I think can be said to be a little below Miko's and O-Chul's pay grade. I don't see chasing after a mass-murdering lich sorceror being beneath their dignity.

And again, it's not just Shojo you have to explain here. Everyone around him who knows about the Gate's destruction and/or Xykon's survival needs to be nearly as dense.

Its not about dignity or pay grade. They specifically took an oath to not interfere in the defenses of the other gates, which Shojo explicitly believes means they wont go after Xykon unless he can prove that Xykon is a threat to the Azure City gate, or that the potential danger is so great that they would be willing to disregard the oath.

And Miko and the other paladins are A: not in leadership positions to need to be making decisions like that and B: are not aware of Xykon as a specific entity until the Order are dragged in for questioning. If they had that information, Shojo wouldn't need the Order in the first place!

Lacuna Caster

2019-01-19, 04:29 PM

Its not about dignity or pay grade. They specifically took an oath to not interfere in the defenses of the other gates, which Shojo explicitly believes means they wont go after Xykon unless he can prove that Xykon is a threat to the Azure City gate, or that the potential danger is so great that they would be willing to disregard the oath.

And Miko and the other paladins are A: not in leadership positions to need to be making decisions like that and B: are not aware of Xykon as a specific entity until the Order are dragged in for questioning. If they had that information, Shojo wouldn't need the Order in the first place!
That's exactly it, Keltest. That's exactly my point. Shojo doesn't need the Order, because he already has the evidence and information he needs to get the paladins on the same page, right there, from Eugene. That's my point. Not that chasing Xykon starting from a location that is not an intact Gate would in any way breach their oaths.

Eugene, Miko and the other paladins are not in leadership positions, but surely they can point out alternative plans and make suggestions in this vein. So you can't just blame this on Shojo having a brain fart.

Keltest

2019-01-19, 04:35 PM

That's exactly it, Keltest. That's exactly my point. Shojo doesn't need the Order, because he already has the evidence and information he needs to get the paladins on the same page, right there, from Eugene. That's my point. Not that chasing Xykon starting from a location that is not an intact Gate would in any way breach their oaths.

Eugene, Miko and the other paladins are not in leadership positions, but surely they can point out alternative plans and make suggestions in this vein. So you can't just blame this on Shojo having a brain fart.

He doesn't though. Eugene doesn't know crap about Xykon other than that he exists. He doesn't know about his plans or location or capabilities or anything. He struggled to even find Xykon when he was alive, let alone now that he's dead and doesn't have a fraction of the resources he used to.

Youre telling me you expect the Sapphire Guard to just go "Hey, theres an evil Lich out there somewhere! We should mobilize the entire Guard and destroy him for completely unexplained reasons!"? Because I think you may want to reconsider that conclusion.

Lacuna Caster

2019-01-19, 04:44 PM

He doesn't though. Eugene doesn't know crap about Xykon other than that he exists. He doesn't know about his plans or location or capabilities or anything. He struggled to even find Xykon when he was alive, let alone now that he's dead and doesn't have a fraction of the resources he used to.
The only reason for this 'struggle' is because the Oracle disallowed him from visiting twice for entirely meta reasons. (I dislike the Oracle as a plot device in general, but while we're on the topic, there was also nothing to stop Shojo from just sending someone to the Oracle himself.)

Besides, if anyone in the Guard (including Shojo) thinks to ask "was there a goblin with a red cloak?"- which should really be the first thing they ask- then I suspect that Eugene can clue them to the Crimson Mantle's involvement, and that should ring more than enough alarm bells.

Youre telling me you expect the Sapphire Guard to just go "Hey, theres an evil Lich out there somewhere! We should mobilize the entire Guard and destroy him for completely unexplained reasons!"?
Again, if Shojo can send paladins to clean the litter box, I don't see why they'd ask twice about being sent to fight an evil lich who presumably killed Dorukan and most of his followers. Destroying evil is a significant part of the job.

Keltest

2019-01-19, 05:02 PM

The only reason for this 'struggle' is because the Oracle disallowed him from visiting twice for entirely meta reasons. (I dislike the Oracle as a plot device in general, but while we're on the topic, there was also nothing to stop Shojo from just sending someone to the Oracle himself.)

Besides, if anyone in the Guard (including Shojo) thinks to ask "was there a goblin with a red cloak?"- which should really be the first thing they ask- then I suspect that Eugene can clue them to the Crimson Mantle's involvement, and that should ring more than enough alarm bells.

Again, if Shojo can send paladins to clean the litter box, I don't see why they'd ask twice about being sent to fight an evil lich who presumably killed Dorukan and most of his followers. Destroying evil is a significant part of the job.

Shojo cant send them as agents of the Sapphire Guard because he cant prove Xykon is a threat to the AC gate. He cant send them as lord of AC because its not in his territory. And Shojo specifically was looking for somebody who wasn't a paladin of the Guard but who understood (or was perceived to understand) the nature of the Gates to send on his information gathering mission.

This is all in the freaking comic. Your questions were answered in his exposition. Why do I even need to explain these things to you when Shojo says as much himself?

Mightymosy

2019-01-19, 07:10 PM

By threatening him the moment he says this isn't his business (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html).
That doesn't count, because if Roy blabs to Miko about secretly working for Shojo behind the paladins' backs would also cause problems for Shojo (oh wait, it DID cause Shojo problems when Miko learned that!), but Shojo STILL employed Roy.
Yes but with the fake trial Shojo could be sure Roy wouldn't tell anyone.

Tht's because you have saner priorities than Shojo. A character acting sub-optimally is not a flaw in the story, especially when that is consistent with that character's personnality.[/QUOTE]

1. Roy might have spoiled every secret after the fake trial, Shojo has no guarantee for that.
And he doesn't need to spoil Gate secrets when using sending (i.e. BEFORE any fake trial attempt - he only needs to send something that Xykon is alive and that Eugene wants Roy to go to Azure City.)
I really don't see what Shojo is getting from NOT attempting a Sending.

2. I never thought the story was bad because Shojo wasn't sane. For me it worked perfectly well, especially since OotS was mainly comedy at the time - some ruler who thinks he is oh so clever, making an overly convoluted silly plan is absolutely fair game for me. Especially since Roy even says "stupid railroad plot", which for me says that the author wanted to say "people, this is a comic - don't overanalyze certain aspects!"

Shojo cant send them as agents of the Sapphire Guard because he cant prove Xykon is a threat to the AC gate. He cant send them as lord of AC because its not in his territory. And Shojo specifically was looking for somebody who wasn't a paladin of the Guard but who understood (or was perceived to understand) the nature of the Gates to send on his information gathering mission.

This is all in the freaking comic. Your questions were answered in his exposition. Why do I even need to explain these things to you when Shojo says as much himself?

He sent Miko outside his territory anyway.