Epic Levels

[HolyDraconus]

Ding. Level 20. The pinnacle of greatness.... or is it? Generally, what is there to do beyond 20 that's a consistent threat? I understand that some never reach the heights of epic, and in this edition it feels like no one should, but instead should retire. Worse, most things that challenge an epic party in 5e, can and is usually solved by those as low as half their level if played smart. You couldn't do that in past editions cause you needed that muscle. That wisdom. That speed. That Power. So? What's up?

[Unoriginal]

Ding. Level 20. The pinnacle of greatness.... or is it?

Yep, it is.



Generally, what is there to do beyond 20 that's a consistent threat? I understand that some never reach the heights of epic, and in this edition it feels like no one should, but instead should retire. Worse, most things that challenge an epic party in 5e, can and is usually solved by those as low as half their level if played smart. You couldn't do that in past editions cause you needed that muscle. That wisdom. That speed. That Power. So? What's up?

What do you mean, what's up?

At lvl 20 you can boxe with demon lords and demolish demigods, as a team. More or less nothing is really a consistent threat, as anything above this weight class is mostly "cannot be fought". If you want to go beyond, I guess you could try to do those adventures solo?

[Tvtyrant]

Ding. Level 20. The pinnacle of greatness.... or is it? Generally, what is there to do beyond 20 that's a consistent threat? I understand that some never reach the heights of epic, and in this edition it feels like no one should, but instead should retire. Worse, most things that challenge an epic party in 5e, can and is usually solved by those as low as half their level if played smart. You couldn't do that in past editions cause you needed that muscle. That wisdom. That speed. That Power. So? What's up?
So make epic enemies that require high level characters play smart to win? Make something like Pandorym (or other Elder Evils) that can't be beaten in a fight, and the party has to somehow get rid of it anyway.

Atropus would actually be great because the party can't rest or recover on ita surface, they have to kill waves of undead on dwindling resources until they kill the avatar. Armies would just add to the undead and lower level adventurers would wear out, only the pinnacle of mortal power can survive a sojourn to its surface.

[XmonkTad]

Atropus would actually be great because the party can't rest or recover on its surface, they have to kill waves of undead on dwindling resources until they kill the avatar. Armies would just add to the undead and lower level adventurers would wear out, only the pinnacle of mortal power can survive a sojourn to its surface.

This is the level of stuff you should be throwing at Epic Level characters. It's not just "end of the world" it's "end of the world via cosmic evil." Atropus in particular is a perfect foe because it can tax PCs in a way that really requires them to be epic level.

[Tanarii]

High levels start at 11.
Epic levels start at 17. :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

This is the level of stuff you should be throwing at Epic Level characters. It's not just "end of the world" it's "end of the world via cosmic evil." Atropus in particular is a perfect foe because it can tax PCs in a way that really requires them to be epic level.

The EEs are actually a lot better in 5E then 3.5, since monsters remain threatning longer and instant vanquishing brutes is much harder. The signs are pretty devastating as they approach, defending towns would be a legit plot.

[HolyDraconus]

Yep, it is.

I guess we have nothing to add here. Character is 20. Move along. Reroll. Kay.

So make epic enemies that require high level characters play smart to win?Playing smart isn't what epic is about. That can be handled by those that haven't even reached such heights. Being epic means being awesome enough to handle threats that just being smart isnt good enough. Like the fighter that arm wrestles an avatar of a god in a tournament for rights to move a planar domain, or the wizard that crafts a 10th level spell to handle some realm shattering threat. Being smart is fighting, and beating, Acererak at level 8 in Tomb of Horrors. Being epic is being able to control him like the undead he is.

[Sariel Vailo]

I had found multiple threads fir going above 20 i can show you where they are.

[Tvtyrant]

I guess we have nothing to add here. Character is 20. Move along. Reroll. Kay.
Playing smart isn't what epic is about. That can be handled by those that haven't even reached such heights. Being epic means being awesome enough to handle threats that just being smart isnt good enough. Like the fighter that arm wrestles an avatar of a god in a tournament for rights to move a planar domain, or the wizard that crafts a 10th level spell to handle some realm shattering threat. Being smart is fighting, and beating, Acererak at level 8 in Tomb of Horrors. Being epic is being able to control him like the undead he is.

I'm going to have to disagree, that sounds incredibly dull. It is also a different fantasy genre then the Conan/LoTR/Vance inspired 5E, you would be better of playing a different edition or game if you want unlimited cosmic power.

The only edition that does that is 3.5, and the designers never intended that and moved off of it with all of the following editions. I suppose you could have your characters switch rule sets at epic levels and become T1 3.5 characters, explaining it as the world just works differently for epic people.

[mephnick]

It is also a different fantasy genre then the Conan/LoTR/Vance inspired 5E,

5e also rockets out of that genre around level 11. There's nothing "LoTR" or "Conan" about 15th level 5th Edition.

[Spiritchaser]

There’s no reason your DM can’t make adventure after 20, but they might not want to. Keeping things appropriate, balanced and interesting after 20 is just going to be harder. Seriously, even at 15 or so it gets plenty hard enough, at least for me.

If you really want to keep the character going, talk to your DM about occasional epic one shots that could tie in to a lower tier campaign. These characters are legendary. No reason they couldn’t BE the legends subsequent characters were told when they were children... maybe they could enlist the aid of those legends when they get way out of their depth... chaining into that all night Armageddon...

Again: there’s no reason, mechanical or otherwise why you couldn’t play full time over 20, still finding challenges and progression, but if the DM felt it was too much work I’d be understanding.

[KorvinStarmast]

Seriously, there are devils and demon lords a plenty to battle with, and they have minions.

You can go into the infernal regions of the multiverse at level 20 and get challenges a plenty.
Quantity has a quality all its own.

[CTurbo]

A team of level 20 characters may be unstoppable, but a solo level 20 character is not.

You ever see that YouTube video where 10000 chickens can kill 20 T-rex in a simulated battle?

My friend and I had an idea where we'd take 1 level 20 character and put him in a situation where he had to lead and protect a group of level 1 characters who aren't totally helpless but would be constantly put in situations more suitable for like a level 5 party.