Greatsword + Natural Attacks, is power attack still worth it?

[Voltage]

I'm levelling up a Warpriest 2/Unchained Barbarian 1. I have a Greatsword and a Bite Attack already and I'm planning on taking Lesser Fiend Totem for a Gore Attack.
I'll have +11 2d6+10 on the greatsword and, +6 1d6+6 on the bite before Power Attack.
Obviously -1 to hit, +3 Damage is fantastic for the greatsword, but -1 hit, +1 damage on the Bite and the Gore I'll get at 4th is pretty poor. Is Power Attack still worth it at that point? This is PFS characer so it's not going above 11.

[GiantFlyingHog]

Unless I'm mistaken, it should +2 damage on the Bite and Gore.

[Voltage]

This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

While the Bite is normally a primary, when combined with my Greatsword, it becomes a secondary attack giving +1 instead of 2.

I ended up doing some math and at my level, Power Attack adds 2 average damage. I suppose helping with DR may push it over the edge and it does get better as I level.

[Zaq]

If you really want to get into it, I’d sit down and run the math.

Expected DPR = chance to hit times expected damage on hit (add together all the attacks you expect to make in a turn). You can do a simplified version that ignores crits or you can break out the chance to crit and the expected damage on a crit.

You know the expected damage on a hit with and without PA, so then just plug in the chance to hit with and without PA for a range of ACs that you expect to encounter. I’ve never played in PFS, but I would imagine that organized play like that probably uses a lot of by-the-book opponents, right? Shouldn’t be too hard to find some bog-standard monsters for your CR range and use their ACs as starting points.

Here’s a calculator (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) for 3.5. I’m not sure if it’ll work perfectly in PF, but it might. You’ll have to run it for your greatsword and then for your secondary attacks and combine the results, but it’s still a starting point.

[Voltage]

Actually, Pathfinder's version of Power Attack is much better than 3.5s.

[gkathellar]

Actually, Pathfinder's version of Power Attack is much better than 3.5s.

Yes and no. It's unequivocally stronger at level 1, and by default adds more damage per point of penalty. That said, it doesn't have nearly as much support (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc), offers you less flexibility in scaling the penalty to suit your needs, and generally lacks the huge combo potential of things like Wraithstrike that are available in 3.5.

[arkangel111]

from experience, most modules you are going to blow through. if you're in these forums looking for advice on PFS I think you should concentrate on some of the noncombat feats that in the back of your mind you always wanted to grab anyways. PFS is super easy mode.
in short it will be NOT "worth it" in PFS. you will want feats that improve your versatility, not hyper-focus you. there is always more than enough combat power in a party, for your standard module. I have a level 10 raging paladin power attacker, I have literally cleared an entire room solo because i rushed ahead when things were too easy. I sit back and do nothing whenever a module or group tries RP because I have nothing else to contribute. you ll enjoy PFS more with some versatility.

[Voltage]

from experience, most modules you are going to blow through. if you're in these forums looking for advice on PFS I think you should concentrate on some of the noncombat feats that in the back of your mind you always wanted to grab anyways. PFS is super easy mode.
in short it will be NOT "worth it" in PFS. you will want feats that improve your versatility, not hyper-focus you. there is always more than enough combat power in a party, for your standard module. I have a level 10 raging paladin power attacker, I have literally cleared an entire room solo because i rushed ahead when things were too easy. I sit back and do nothing whenever a module or group tries RP because I have nothing else to contribute. you ll enjoy PFS more with some versatility.

That entirely depends on which one you're playing. I've had a character with good AC and health go to -17 HP before his 2nd turn of the first combat in a normal PFS module. In this case, my character will have reasonable skills and cleric spells for support.

[ericgrau]

Trick question, power attack was never worth it to begin with. :smalltongue:

J/k. For one PF PA is a little bit better, though it can't be further optimized that much unlike 3.5 PA. There are a lot of calculators but here is a formula that will help you conceptualize it better:

Effective DPH boost = (DPH + bonus dmg) * (hits - attack penalty) / hits - DPH.

Hits = # hits out of 20. Often it's 10 or 15. 15 with a good attack bonus against an average enemy.
This tells you how much of a damage per hit boost would give the same benefit.

So instead of damage per round, from the above number you get an equivalent boost to weapon damage. Except a lower attack bonus and higher damage introduces more randomness to fights. Increased risk is usually not something you want when you have an advantage, which is nearly every fight or campaigns would be really short. Also higher potential for overkill. When most difficult foes drop in 2-3 hits, you are likely going to spend around 1/3rd of your time on overkill attacks and waste an average of 1/2 your damage on that last hit. So 1/3*1/2=1/6th of any extra damage you get. Give or take depending on circumstances, but 1/6th gives an ok rough estimate.

Overkill = (roughly) 1/2 *1/3 * bonus damage = 1/6 bonus damage. Assuming 3 hits per dropped foe, and so on average half of the last hit is wasted. YMMV, and you might strategize to minimize overkill. Adjust as desired.

Check this out. 16+4=20 str raging level 3 barbarian with a MW greatsword. So we'll assume 15 hits. 14 avg DPH (3.5+3.5+5*1.5 rounded down).

Let's try PA: EDb = (14+3)*(15-1)/15-14 = 1.9. Good, but a little worse than weapon specialization due to the risk/overkill factor. 1/6th of the 3 is around 0.5 damage often lost, vs 0.3 with weapon spec. I'm a little surprised myself, but oh yeah it's because of how PF PA scales and you really want at least -2/+6.

Let's try level 6 PA instead:
EDb primary = (14+6)*(15-2)/15-14 = 3.3 dmg. Better. But after overkill it's 2.3 vs. weapon spec's 1.7.
EDb secondary = (14+6)*(10-2)/10-14 = 2 dmg. After overkill worse than weapon spec.
If you single attack half the time and full attack half the time you average out to (3.3+3.3+2)/3=2.9 dmg.
With estimated 1/6th overkill: (2.3+2.3+1)/3=1.9. Only a hair better than weapon spec.

Do something similar with your natural attacks and you'll have your answer. Perhaps assume 14 hits out of 20 due to your BAB, and then I don't know what other bonuses or penalties you might have, plus I noticed unchained barbarian is a little different. So I better let you figure it out. Yeah 15 hits out of 20 on a raging barbarian 3 with MW weapon is just an estimate for comparison. And if you like to go for the big tough foe, maybe you'll want 10 as a starting point, or somewhere in between on your estimate. It's either that or you start pulling average monster stats and getting much more complicated.

Something else to consider: This is the sweet spot, nearly the pinnacle of what you get from PA and it's almost the same as weapon specialization on a regular barbarian. As damage goes up and you get more secondary attacks from high level or your natural attacks the EDb only gets worse. It often dips below weapon spec.

Ok now weapon focus just for the sake of comparison:
EDb primary = (14)*(15+1)/15-14 = 0.9 dmg. Not that good.
EDb secondary = (14)*(10+1)/10-14 = 1.4 dmg. Almost as good as weapon spec considering there's no added overkill.

So it's not that good at low level. But see what it did to the secondary attack? As you get higher in level, your damage goes up and/or you get more secondaries attack bonus becomes more valuable. At high level weapon focus may even surpass PA and weapon spec. Yet PA scales in the reverse direction. If you could get -3/+9 at level 3 that'd be awesome, but instead you get it when you are starting to wish you had the option to opt for smaller trades. Hence why I said above early-mid level is around the pinnacle.

I've learned better than to spend hours analyzing something to death for someone else, only to run into xyz hurdle from a missed number or even from that person. So instead you have a nice pretty bold formula up top, have at it yourself! Don't like the overkill amount or anything else? Ok, adjust it yourself! I'm not gonna do it.

Though I'm kind of seeing that PF PA isn't that special to begin with. I thought it would at least do better than 3.5 PA. So... probably not worth it for you, or perhaps as a 3rd or 4th feat after a couple others. Again, play with the numbers yourself and see what you think. I've overstayed the internet today.