Low Class Ability Score Point

[KyleG]

What score is too low an ability score for a caster.
Is a sorcerer/warlocks charisma at 12 too low?
Can a wizard succeed starting at 14?
Will a Druid be hindered (to the point of non-viability) by a 12 wisdom?
Can a rogue operate thru the late game with only a 10 in charisma to start?

[Tanarii]

Spellcasters can operate with very low spellcasting modifier scores, as long as they're willing to stick to spells that don't involve attack rolls or saves. I've seen more than a few Valor Bards built that way.

Why wouldn't a Rogue be able to operate with a 10 Cha. Over seen 8 Cha rogues operate just fine before. Not at Cha-related stuff ... although I have seen one or two with an 8 Cha and Expertise in Cha skill(s) to make up for it.

A 10 Dex rogue would be harder. You'd probably want Str and Heavy Armor at that point, which means a game with either Multiclassing or Feats. (Not uncommon of course.)

[KyleG]

Spellcasters can operate with very low spellcasting modifier scores, as long as they're willing to stick to spells that don't involve attack rolls or saves. I've seen more than a few Valor Bards built that way.

Why wouldn't a Rogue be able to operate with a 10 Cha. Over seen 8 Cha rogues operate just fine before. Not at Cha-related stuff ... although I have seen one or two with an 8 Cha and Expertise in Cha skill(s) to make up for it.

A 10 Dex rogue would be harder. You'd probably want Str and Heavy Armor at that point, which means a game with either Multiclassing or Feats. (Not uncommon of course.)

The rogue was not a good example i guess...as the Cha for them is about skills more than anything else.
Apart from Valor Bards are sorcerer or warlock spell selections up to handling spells without attack rolls or saves?

[lperkins2]

The rogue was not a good example i guess...as the Cha for them is about skills more than anything else.
Apart from Valor Bards are sorcerer or warlock spell selections up to handling spells without attack rolls or saves?

As long as they aren't trying to fill the controller/blaster role in the party, yes. I usually recommend going the xbow/snipershot route so you have some way to actually deal damage. Then you grab utility spells and ones that have good effects either without saves, or despite passed saves. Warlocks get a fair number spells that don't involve saves. Hunger of Hadar is nice if you have a goalie to punt monsters back into it (searing smite, repelling blast). Armour of Agathys gives temp HP to the caster and does fixed damage to anyone hitting them. GFB or BB let you make a weapon attack and do a rider on that for extra damage.

Sorcer has Enhance Ability, Feather Fall, Haste. Divine Soul sorcerer can do decent healing, and bless and the like is good.

[CTurbo]

I've played a 12 Cha Paladin and it was fine. I've seen 10 Int Eldrich Knights and Arcane Tricksters work out fine.

Melee characters with low attack stats have it much worse

[KyleG]

One of several characters that invoked this question in me was a Kobold 6, 17,13, 13, 12, 12. (room to tweak)
Raised by a ranger as an outlander (wis 12) her natural talents of sorcery (chr 12...these are outlanders so even 12 seems high) only surpassed by her keen mind (int 13).
So maybe ill run her as a sorcerer with an early dip into Wizard for the extra umpf this might yield? Or maybe as a Wizard who discovers her dragon sorcerer powers?

Ive got a warlock (revenge quest) i want to run who was a rather intelligent scholar but the high charisma doesn't fit right with me.

And i have a young druid (think hippy) who is kinda like Mikey from TMNT giving him a high wisdom feels off point also (12-13 is pushing it i think).

[CTurbo]

Technically you have to have a 13 Cha to qualify for a Sorcerer multiclass in or out.

Why do you want to combine the two classes?

[Chronos]

Quoth tanarii:

Spellcasters can operate with very low spellcasting modifier scores, as long as they're willing to stick to spells that don't involve attack rolls or saves. I've seen more than a few Valor Bards built that way.
Though note that bards use Cha for more than just spellcasting. Their number of uses of inspiration also depends on Cha, and you probably don't want to give up too much of that.

[JNAProductions]

It's not optimal, and I'd recommend bumping your primary stat up with ASIs when you get the chance, but you'll do fine.

My general rule would be this, if you're worried about your character not contributing:

Level 1: 12 in primary stat.
Level 5: 14 in primary stat
Level 11: 16 in primary stat
Level 17: 18 in primary stat

This is just kinda pulled from my butt, but feels reasonable.

[KyleG]

Technically you have to have a 13 Cha to qualify for a Sorcerer multiclass in or out.

Why do you want to combine the two classes?

I don't as such just wanting to find a way to make a character who is definitely at least starting as sorcerer more viable I'd the low cha is too problematic

[iTreeby]

Sorcerer dips for Metamagic on a non Cha spell class can be really fun for making spells do strange things. Sometimes you want the sorcerer saves instead of the other so you start sorcerer. It's not a huge sacrifice especially if you want to be charismatic anyway.

[Tanarii]

Though note that bards use Cha for more than just spellcasting. Their number of uses of inspiration also depends on Cha, and you probably don't want to give up too much of that.
Unless you're pumping Cha, there's no difference in uses between a 13 and an 8 or a 10. A 14 doubles your uses per long rest before level 5, and per short rest after. But that's already substantial investment in an ability score. It means you've either picked it as one of your top two scores, or you got a racial bonus, or you invested an ASI.

Of course, I doubt I'd see it as often if the characters were regularly expected to reach high level (ie T3 / 11+). But few characters go that far, especially in AL or IMC.

[Pex]

What's too low is subjective to the individual, but for me the math of the game matters. Playing a cleric I had delayed my 18 to 8th level because getting a feat at 4th was more important. It proved the correct choice. Taking Healer I had never needed to cast a healing spell. That is the minimum I will go, a 16 until 8th level as a primary caster. For a class like Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster where the character would mainly use their spells for buffs or utility then even an 8 is fine since they aren't attacking with spells or causing saving throws. If you will make attack rolls then you need a 16. If you will cause saving throws you need an 18 by 8th level. I find succeeding on attacks rolls is easier than opponents failing saving throws. Every +1 counts, and it's easier to get Advantage on attack rolls than opponents Disadvantage on saving throws.

For those players who have no problem with scores lower than 16 even when attacking or causing saving throws for a primary caster, hooray for them. It's not my character. It's not my game. I would not play such a character, and I don't apologize for it.

[Tanarii]

Needing a 16 until 8th (which is indeed approx what the game math expects) means either choosing a +1 or +2 Cha race for the class, or bumping the stat up at level 4. That's basically staying with primary.

To me, 'low' means +1 or lower to start, and 'normal' is at least +2 to start, then start raising it with ASIs. (There's room between those two, obviously.)

[KyleG]

After doing some searching as to the meanings of each stat and seeing how things worked in earlier editions it seems that the easiest answer is to change my own thinking and hopefully the dm should i play these characters out.
Charisma as a force of willpower as per older editions means I could happily have it high. I could ask the dm if I could take a hit to the chr based skills to better reflect the character.
I wonder whether the game developers have considered for future updates/editions letting the player choose between two stats for each skill. Eg. Chr as a force of willpower could also be applied to athletics perhaps. Or Int to persuasion.

[CTurbo]

"Low" is a relative term that nobody is going to agree with. To me, starting with LESS than 16 in your main stat is "low". I will always start with a 16 in my main stat, and almost always in BOTH of my main two stats. I'm the type of player that'd be more likely to start 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 than 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13 so to me, it's always a tough decision at level 4 whether to take a feat or bump my main stat to 18. Then again I've seen a Pole Arm Fighter start with 14 Str and never bump it. (IMO, this character sucked but the guy had fun even though he always missed)

[Chronos]

The rules are already explicit that skills can be used with different abilities. It's just on a case-by-case basis. The examples given are Strength (Intimidation) for scaring someone with a feat of strength, and Constitution (Athletics) for a prolonged, tiring activity. I could also see, for instance, Charisma (Stealth) for blending into a crowd.

You don't need to go the 4e route of only having three ability scores.

And as a rough rule of thumb, I find that most classes are best getting one feat that matters most to them, then pumping their main stat to 20, and then either more feats or pumping secondary stats. This means that variant humans (who start with their feat) can focus on ability scores right away, but others should usually take a feat at 4th.

[Tanarii]

"Low" is a relative term that nobody is going to agree with. To me, starting with LESS than 16 in your main stat is "low". I will always start with a 16 in my main stat, and almost always in BOTH of my main two stats.clearly low is anything less than maximum possible, including the perfect race choice. :smallamused:

Not blue text because I totally get the thinking there. I just think it's kinda funny if taken at face value without understanding. :smallbiggrin:

[KyleG]

As much as "low" is subjective this is about functioning stats for the purpose of supporting your party. If you cleric is useless with a 13, then 13 is low. The problem seems to be that abilities and personality are tied together but roleplay and character powers can be vastly different.

[noob]

As much as "low" is subjective this is about functioning stats for the purpose of supporting your party. If you cleric is useless with a 13, then 13 is low. The problem seems to be that abilities and personality are tied together but roleplay and character powers can be vastly different.

If everybody only had ones then one would be the highest and best ability score.

[Tanarii]

The problem seems to be that abilities and personality are tied together but roleplay and character powers can be vastly different.
How is that even possibly, other than choosing not to use character powers?

Or do you mean "but the way I envision/describe my character and what I have them do in game can be vastly different." If so that's a conflict between what the player thinks they wantto roleplay, and what they're actually roleplaying.

[KyleG]

How is that even possibly, other than choosing not to use character powers?

Or do you mean "but the way I envision/describe my character and what I have them do in game can be vastly different." If so that's a conflict between what the player thinks they want to roleplay, and what they're actually roleplaying.

sorcerer is a good example here. my 15 chr sorcerer should have powerful personality/looks based on its description but a player might be a powerful sorcerer but be meek in their interactions with people. So what im trying to understand is if in trying to reflect this better with a 13 in chr will it adversely affect gameplay. or the con artist rogue with high chr but not very high in dex. or the hippy communing with nature druid who doesnt come across as perceptive or wise.