Permanent fusion

[Gwyllgi]

Okay, I was wondering, everywhere I look people think that the psionic power fusion followed by the power Astral Seed and suicide makes the fusion permanent. Is there any evidence or RAW to this or is it just something people agreed to?

[zergling.exe]

Okay, I was wondering, everywhere I look people think that the psionic power fusion followed by the power Astral Seed and suicide makes the fusion permanent. Is there any evidence or RAW to this or is it just something people agreed to?

People have decided that all buffs are baked into the character's base stats when astral seed is used, thus the fused 'creature' is permanent. As well as any other buffs you have active like mindblank, foresight, or fox's cunning. Where they get this I have no idea, as an exact duplicate would include all the buff durations as well, else it is not an exact duplicate which is a key operating word that they make use of in their interpretation. :smallconfused:

[Menzath]

Part of it is due to astral seeds oddly specific text.

An exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifest astral seed...
You posses all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested....

As far as people saying that other magic/psi buffs that don't alter your body or add abilities are baked in as well I would have to disagree with.
Foresight is iffy. A magical "sixth sense" is the text, and senses are technically (ex) abilities. It's a little bit of a stretch without much RAW, but a few DM's might let it pass if they let you use astral seed cheese anyways.

[ShurikVch]

IMHO, it doesn't works at all: Astral Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) makes "an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested", but fused body isn't your body - you're sharing it with somebody else

Think of it this way: if you're a co-owner, can you dispose of whole property - even if you're got another co-owner killed? (Especially considering the fact you're became the co-owner in the first place via the forged papers?)

[Ruethgar]

IMHO, it doesn't works at all: Astral Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) makes "an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested", but fused body isn't your body - you're sharing it with somebody else

Think of it this way: if you're a co-owner, can you dispose of whole property - even if you're got another co-owner killed? (Especially considering the fact you're became the co-owner in the first place via the forged papers?)

What if you were a Dvati and sharing it with yourself. Or with you psicrystal which is a shard of your personality? Or a clone? Or POAed/Mindraped them into being you?

[Menzath]

but fused body isn't your body - you're sharing it with somebody else

Think of it this way: if you're a co-owner, can you dispose of whole property - even if you're got another co-owner killed? (Especially considering the fact you're became the co-owner in the first place via the forged papers?)

What if you have an alternate form ability from being a changeling, or were creature, or dragon. They are still your "natural" form. And even then technically PAO changes your creature type. Sure it's not your "true" form, but for all intents and purposes you are that creature.

In D&D "you" are a transmutable shape, and many many things can grant you abilities beyond the norm. Once you start allowing some exceptions, many others have to be allowed because they are the same effect under a different name.

[ShurikVch]

What if you were a Dvati and sharing it with yourself.By the RAW, Dvati "slowly sickens and perishes."


Or with you psicrystal which is a shard of your personality?Psicrystal is not a living creature - thus, illegal for Fusion.


Or a clone?Clones are one of the most badly-thought-through things in the game - right on par with Simulacrum and Freedom of Movement 3.5; the correct answer will be: "Ask your DM"



Or POAed/Mindraped them into being you?
What if you have an alternate form ability from being a changeling, or were creature, or dragon. They are still your "natural" form. And even then technically PAO changes your creature type. Sure it's not your "true" form, but for all intents and purposes you are that creature. No, you're not!
True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) spell: if what it shows you is "true", then it means all other things is "false"
Forced Shapechange spell (Oriental Adventures): "force any shapechanger to revert into its true form"
Forced Shapechange (CF of Church Inquisitor): "force a creature into its natural form ... undoes the effect of alter self, polymorph, shapechange, and alternate form abilities, whether exceptional, spell-like, or supernatural in nature"; if it worked on you, then you wasn't in "natural" form

[Gwyllgi]

What if you have an alternate form ability from being a changeling, or were creature, or dragon. They are still your "natural" form. And even then technically PAO changes your creature type. Sure it's not your "true" form, but for all intents and purposes you are that creature.

In D&D "you" are a transmutable shape, and many many things can grant you abilities beyond the norm. Once you start allowing some exceptions, many others have to be allowed because they are the same effect under a different name.

Couldn't you argue that because fusion gives the caster full control that the caster has only absorbed the abilities of the participant? For instance if you fused together, then astral seeded, separated, then 6 months later you die in a fight with the other person being alive wouldn't that give you your combined powers? What if you know fusion, he doesn't, but he knows astral seed and you cast it with his abilities?

[Menzath]

By the RAW, Dvati "slowly sickens and perishes."

Psicrystal is not a living creature - thus, illegal for Fusion.

Clones are one of the most badly-thought-through things in the game - right on par with Simulacrum and Freedom of Movement 3.5; the correct answer will be: "Ask your DM"


No, you're not!
True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) spell: if what it shows you is "true", then it means all other things is "false"
Forced Shapechange spell (Oriental Adventures): "force any shapechanger to revert into its true form"
Forced Shapechange (CF of Church Inquisitor): "force a creature into its natural form ... undoes the effect of alter self, polymorph, shapechange, and alternate form abilities, whether exceptional, spell-like, or supernatural in nature"; if it worked on you, then you wasn't in "natural" form

And yet none of those effect people in fusion.
Are two natural combined forms still natural forms then, and as pointed out, what if the fuser knows fusion, but not astral seed, but gets astral seed from the fusion?
Who's "natural" form would you suggest it would apply to in such a case.

Also with the interactions between the shapechanger subtype and polymorph school I heavily believe true form =/= natural form.
There is no connect bettween the two anywhere.

Also astral seed does not specify either your true or natural form, it specifies an exact duplicate of your body at the time.

[Ruethgar]

Forced Shapechange spell (Oriental Adventures): "force any shapechanger to revert into its true form"
Forced Shapechange (CF of Church Inquisitor): "force a creature into its natural form ... undoes the effect of alter self, polymorph, shapechange, and alternate form abilities, whether exceptional, spell-like, or supernatural in nature"; if it worked on you, then you wasn't in "natural" form

This spell always bugged me, especially with Hengeyokai and Tibbits as they are both truly animals with shapeshifting abilities, but are treated as humanoids with animal forms. Which would be a tibbit’s true form? A cat like his ancestors, or the magical little halfling thing they learned to transform into?

[ShurikVch]

And yet none of those effect people in fusion.On the contrary: everything but OA spell will affect them.


Are two natural combined forms still natural forms thenNo, they are not.
Look at it this way: a log may be completely natural - when it's lay on the forest floor; but if you will fashion it into crude peg leg - then it's not (because it doesn't grew there)


and as pointed out, what if the fuser knows fusion, but not astral seed, but gets astral seed from the fusion?Eh? :smallconfused: Why it's matter?

Who's "natural" form would you suggest it would apply to in such a case.Both.


Also with the interactions between the shapechanger subtype and polymorph school I heavily believe true form =/= natural form.
There is no connect bettween the two anywhere.Since, in the case of Shapechangers, Forced Shapechange spell and Forced Shapechange class feature are producing essentially the same result, yes - "true"=="natural"


Also astral seed does not specify either your true or natural form, it specifies an exact duplicate of your body at the time.Will it replicate the aforementioned peg leg?
No?
Why?
Then it wouldn't replicate changes from buffs too.



This spell always bugged me, especially with Hengeyokai and Tibbits as they are both truly animals with shapeshifting abilities, but are treated as humanoids with animal forms. Which would be a tibbit’s true form? A cat like his ancestors, or the magical little halfling thing they learned to transform into?The true form will be the humanoid one
It's the RAW (which may clash with the fluff)