What is the most powerful wizard sub class

[Throne12]

What sub class do yall think is the most powerful. What I mean as most powerful. I mean handling a encounter as quick and efficiently as possible.

For my opinion I'll have to say it the divantaion wizard. Being able to have the DM fail my most powerful spell. By using giving him/her a dice that's a lower number then what he/her rolled.

[Zhorn]

Barbarian is best wizard! "Muscle wizard casts fist!"
https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/e/e4/Muscle_wizard.jpg/404px-Muscle_wizard.jpg

[MaxWilson]

What sub class do yall think is the most powerful. What I mean as most powerful. I mean handling a encounter as quick and efficiently as possible.

For my opinion I'll have to say it the divantaion wizard. Being able to have the DM fail my most powerful spell. By using giving him/her a dice that's a lower number then what he/her rolled.

At mid level, necromancer, hands down. At high level, they're all pretty much the same but divination has a slight edge in efficiency and illusion has an edge in versatility.

[Unoriginal]

What sub class do yall think is the most powerful. What I mean as most powerful. I mean handling a encounter as quick and efficiently as possible.

For my opinion I'll have to say it the divantaion wizard. Being able to have the DM fail my most powerful spell. By using giving him/her a dice that's a lower number then what he/her rolled.

All the subclasses are equally powerful in theory. What the encounters end up being, and how the subclass is played/how the DM react to it, has much more impact.

Divination Wizard is seen as "the best" because it let you dictate dice results. Doesn't make it more powerful than Illusionist, but it may make it *feel* more powerful because it's an hard "nope" or an hard "yes" you impose on the mechanic resolution.

[TheUser]

At mid level, necromancer, hands down. At high level, they're all pretty much the same but divination has a slight edge in efficiency and illusion has an edge in versatility.

When would you say the necromancer plateu occurs? I've played one to level 15 and it still seems completely broken (my DM let me equip my minions with armor, weapons and items without worrying about proficiencies which helps a lot). The necromancer sticks out for me not just for the extra strength (which at levels 6-10 is staggering) but the ability to shore up the wizard class' weaknesses;

Silence/anti-magic/Globe of Invulnerability fields/grapples with intent to cover the mouth/blindness/counterspells etc.etc.

Wizards are an extremely binary class in that there are loads of effects that can render them almost useless (anti-magic field probably being the strongest and magic resistance/limited spell immunity being far more prevalent).

With that in mind Bladesingers seem to do amazingly in this game (god bless hand crossbows). And after they get Simulacrum get 6 attacks per round with X-bow expert...

[CTurbo]

I think Abjurers are easily the most powerful school. At high levels they are unstoppable. Most of the best Wizard spells are Abjuration spells and they benefit most from casting them.

[Tokuhara]

What is the general opinion on Invention Wizards? From my once over, it looks pretty solid, if reliant on RNGsus.

[MaxWilson]

When would you say the necromancer plateu occurs? I've played one to level 15 and it still seems completely broken (my DM let me equip my minions with armor, weapons and items without worrying about proficiencies which helps a lot). The necromancer sticks out for me not just for the extra strength (which at levels 6-10 is staggering) but the ability to shore up the wizard class' weaknesses;

Necromancer doesn't so much plateau as other subclasses catch up. Once you've got 7th level spell slots and are raking in thousands of gold from every monster hoard, skeletons become less of a differentiator compared to bound elementals, demons, etc. Necromancer at that point still has access to unique tricks like super-wights and Command Undead, but it just doesn't feel like it matters as much because everyone's got plenty--at that point I start to value illusionist tricks and Portent more than even more minions.

Frankly I find that wizards rarely are motivated to max out their skeletons OR planar minions anyway. Overkill is a good survival strategy for the PC but it can make the game less fun for the player not to be challenged--what I see in practice is people leaving their necromancers on the shelf and playing a different PC most nights, or else eagerly accepting an adventure hook which constrains their options at the premise (e.g. you can't transport more than six people to the haunted burial site, so leave the skeletons home, or rather destroy them before you leave).

[Willie the Duck]

Depends entirely on playstyle, and how much your game approaches the theoretical spot that wizards can occupy. As has been discussed, at high-level play optimal wizarding tends to drift into managing adventuring parties of summoned and bound creatures, along with layers and layers of contingencies. But a lot of people don't think that really captures the part of D&D they like, and thus continue to play high levels like lower levels, just with more.

Abjurers, War Mages, and Bladesingers all are extremely durable in comparison to the others. The strategy for a perfect wizard is to never be in a position where that matters, but again, lots of people like to play this level. Evokers, of all things, are really really good... if you're going to play your wizard as a fireballin' fool (which lots of people do). Necromancers, as noted, have serious advantage in the low-to-moderate-level minion game. Diviners are a lot like the 'Lucky' feat, in that their abilities are good for everyone*, and it'd be hard not to benefit from them. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily the best, just really easy to capitalize upon.
*except the guy who needs to work in the morning, if the person with Lucky or a Diviner have a hard time deciding when to use their abilities.

[Foxhound438]

they all end up being pretty good, but divination probably has a big edge due to the fact that, given useful portent rolls, can effectively insta kill things that don't have legendary resistances without having to hope that the enemy rolls poorly against your imprisonment (or whatever lower level control spell you're using).

but again, they all end up pretty good. Any wizard can pretty much make a demiplane and operate by remote simulacrum drone strike tactics, so there's that.

[Silkensword]

UA allowed? Lore Mastery Wizard.

[Zonugal]

When it comes to pure problem-solving, outside of combat, I think it has to go to the Illusionist.

[JumboWheat01]

If you can get away with all sorts of Illusion shenanigans, then an Illusionist really gives you the power to do whatever it is you want to do. Of course, Illusion shenanigans are a very per-DM kind of thing, so it can also be one of the more worthless schools to focus on.

Divination does give you the ability, depending on how you roll your dice, to make plopping down hard controls on enemies or saving allies a great thing. And the hard controls don't even have to come from you, either. Sure, the Diviner isn't as strong by themselves, but really, it's a party game. If you make your party get through an encounter with minimal effort, you're doing a real good job.

Abjurers are particularly powerful if you know you'll be encountering a lot of spellcasters in your campaign. Proficiency bonus to Dispel Magic and Counterspell rolls? Yes please. Advantage on saves against spells, and resistance to all spell damage? Why yes, I would like that. A temporary HP buffer that works on anything and recharges when you cast an Abjuration? My gods, man, you're a wizard, not a tank. Unless you happen to be a Mountain Dwarf too.

If your campaign includes a lot of social interactions, an Enchanter is by and far the best wizard for the job. That's not to say they can't be useful in combat, but the social uses of Enchantments, plus the ability to edit memories for free to remove the fact that you enchanted them (and which really should work off of Intelligence not Charisma,) is a powerful tool to overlook.

And of course, if your definition of powerful includes "kill things faster," Evokers are great in that department, and they even have the ability to sculpt their area spells, so you can nuke the spot your Fighter friend is standing in and scorch everything around him BUT him. Sorcerer's can't do that, they can only let you auto-save for half damage. And while Sorcerers tend to specialize in an element, you have no such thing, freely changing out your spells daily as needed.

It all depends on what you need for a campaign that decides just how powerful a certain specialization really is. Of course, having fun with your specialization of choice really makes it more enjoyable to play, though.

[Clistenes]

UA allowed? Lore Mastery Wizard.

I thought WotC had officially disavowed that because of how broken they were...

[jas61292]

I actually consider the Diviner and portent super weak in a sense. Because portent feelings a result before it is rolled, rather than replacing a roll result, it is never turning success into failure or vice versa. It is turning the possibility of success into guaranteed success, or the possibility of failure into guaranteed failure. That is really nice, but in my experience, odds are rarely good or bad enough that it will completely change expected outcomes. Sure, guaranteeing something is nice, but chances are it could have worked out just fine anyways.

Now, as far as what is the most powerful, personally I'll go with Illusionists. Many people will write it off due to the DM dependent nature of illusions. But played right, I think illusions are by far the strongest and most versatile school of magic. And one you hit 14 and have Illusory Reality, Malleable Illusions, and Mirage Arcane all working together, you are a literal god.

[Taebyn]

The one that cast wall of force. Jk, for mc diviner. For single class abjurer.

[MaxWilson]

I actually consider the Diviner and portent super weak in a sense. Because portent feelings a result before it is rolled, rather than replacing a roll result, it is never turning success into failure or vice versa. It is turning the possibility of success into guaranteed success, or the possibility of failure into guaranteed failure. That is really nice, but in my experience, odds are rarely good or bad enough that it will completely change expected outcomes. Sure, guaranteeing something is nice, but chances are it could have worked out just fine anyways.

It's mostly important for ensuring that you never waste resources. E.g. if the party meets a Pit Fiend and you've only got one Wish (Planar Binding IX) to use on it, it's nice to know that it isn't going to succeed on it's save and make you waste (no pun intended) a perfectly good Pit Fiend. Getting 50% more pit fiend minions than a generic wizard on that day isn't bad. (If your Portent was high on that day and you have to fall back to dice like a generic wizard, oh well.)

But note that this works just as well with a Necromancer 20 or something and a Fighter 11/Diviner 2/Rogue 7 or what-have-you. The Portent doesn't need to come from wizard.

Wild Sorcerer is good for similar reasons. Having a Fighter 11/Wild Sorc 7/Diviner 2 in the party would be ideal.

[Tanarii]

Now, as far as what is the most powerful, personally I'll go with Illusionists. Many people will write it off due to the DM dependent nature of illusions. But played right, I think illusions are by far the strongest and most versatile school of magic.With good reason. If you have a reticent DM who's naturally inclined to watching out for abusive rules lawyers that like to try and invent any descriptive action they can think of and have it create a mechanical advantage, you'll end up in a trap build without even realizing it until the rulings start coming down.

Now personally, being one of those DMs, I do a few things with illusions:
1) tell my players who want to use Illusions heavily to Read the Darn Spell! Especially The Limitations! Illusion spells are intentionally vaguer than other spells, but they all have some fairly specific limitations. They aren't just wave your hands and any visual-audio effect you want happens.
2) try to give the players as much leeway as possible within the limitations
3) as with any monster reaction to player actions, put some thought into how they are going to react to what they see and hear, from the NPC perspective.

*admittedly a fairly specific combination of traits, but surprisingly common

[djreynolds]

How does the lucky feat work versus divine portent?

[MaxWilson]

How does the lucky feat work versus divine portent?

Portent and Lucky are mutually exclusive. Portent prevents you from rolling; Lucky augments rolls with additional rolls. You can never use them both at the same time.

[djreynolds]

What about player versus player?

A divination uses divine portent and then you use lucky

[MaxWilson]

What about player versus player?

A divination uses divine portent and then you use lucky

I'm AFB but I believe Lucky won't do anything in that case, again because there is no roll. Same as how advantage does nothing against Portent, because there is no roll.

Indomitable would work against Portent though, just like Legendary Resistance does, because it gives you a new save, not just a new d20 roll on the same save.

[Nhorianscum]

Throwing my hat in for Illusionist lategame. Wargamer DM's can make this miserable before xl14 but even at that sort of table 14+ has the ability to just "nope" anything it wants to all day long until the DM throws a book at you.

Before that War/Abjurer/Theruge (UA) are all extremely good. Diviner gets a lot of hype for portent (it's good) but I value staying alive and the obscene spell list +channel more than 2/day knowing the roll.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm AFB but I believe Lucky won't do anything in that case, again because there is no roll.

For reference:


"Lucky. You have inexplicable luck that seems to kick in at just the right moment. You have 3 luck points. Whenever you make an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can spend one luck point to roll an additional d20. You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined. You choose which of the d20s is used for the attack roll, ability check, or saving throw.
You can also spend one luck point when an attack roll is made against you. Roll a d20, and then choose whether the attack uses the attacker's roll or yours.
If more than one creature spends a luck point to influence the outcome of a roll, the points cancel each other out; no additional dice are rolled.
You regain your expended luck points when you finish a long rest. "


"Portent. At 2nd level, glimpses of the future begin to press in on your awareness. When you finish a long rest, roll two d20 and record the numbers rolled. You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll, and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn.
Each foretelling roll can be used only once. When you finish a long rest, you lose any unused foretelling rolls. "

Portent is used before you roll, and Lucky after, so the diviner would portent an opponent's roll, then the opponent would decide whether or not to use Lucky if the situation is such that they can. The language of Lucky refers to the initial roll ("You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die" is referring to the assumed initial roll) and isn't 100% clear on what would happen if that roll were obviated. The initial triggering point of being able to use Lucky ("Whenever you make an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw") still stands (the trigger for lucky isn't that there was a roll, but the language assumes that there was one). The situation would be a little more clear in it's rules-primacy if portent outright stated that it was effectively a roll of the dice, but with a determined outcome (you still roll the dice, but this number is the end result, rather than what the die actually shows). Phrasing that without creating more confusion than you started with might be a unrewarding endeavor*, though. Hard to say what I would have done in their place.
*There are a few places where things are effectively something, but the rules don't spell it out to perfect satisfaction. Ex. non-monk, non-tavern-brawler unarmed 'damage dice' is one point, but maybe it really should by 1D1 for consistency's sake, but man would that just create unnecessary confusion.

[djreynolds]

Portent than is still very strong, even if it forces an enemy to use up it's legendary saves alone.

[MaxWilson]

Portent than is still very strong, even if it forces an enemy to use up it's legendary saves alone.

Eh... Portent is sort of like inflicting double-disadvantage on enemy saves once per day. That is, if an enemy has +10 to Wisdom saves, and therefore succeeds 60% of the time on a DC 19 Wisdom save, only 40% of your Portent dice are useful against that enemy's Wisdom saves in the first place. And the enemy isn't forced to use its legendary resistances in the first place--if it knows you're throwing a weak effect like Charm Person at it, it might just opt to just fail the save and target someone else.

In the general case I feel that trying to burn through legendary resistance just isn't worth the spell slots and action economy cost. Unless you have a way to turn the defeated enemy into a permanent minion, it's usually better to just kill the creature without relying on failed saves--it's not like 5E doesn't have plenty of ways to bypass legendary resistance, one way or another.

Personally I dislike how metagamey legendary resistance is--I replace both 5E Magic Resistance and Legendary Resistance with a version of old-school Magic Resistance inspired by Counterspell: the enemy spends its reaction to shrug off the magic "like water off a duck's back" in the words of the AD&D2 PHB. If it works, the spell is nullified--it poofs out of existence. (If it fails, this spell is unaffected by that creature's magic resistance from here on out--no retries allowed.) That makes magic resistance still useful against things like Wall of Force, Maze, and conjured animals or demons, while also still giving plenty of opportunities for players to work around it (e.g. by baiting a monster into using its reaction on an opportunity attack or Shield instead).

[Tanarii]

And the enemy isn't forced to use its legendary resistances in the first place--if it knows you're throwing a weak effect like Charm Person at it, it might just opt to just fail the save and target someone else.

In which case it is using its reactions to identify the spell. Win-win.